How Combat Works - Hoi4

Breaking down how combat works with the new coordination mechanic introduced in NSB. How combat resolves and why coordination promotes smaller divisions over larger divisions.
Twitch.tv/71Cloak

[@CG-eh6oe]

At this point, 2.56 million british and french troups have died because someone wanted to know how stuff works.

[@lorenzooliveira1157]

Next update we are going to massacre many more in the skies.

[@MrNicoJac]

So, a bit like WW1 being a simulation for the German Kaiser on how the world works? 👀

[@infantrycola5701]

Rest in piece to the British soldiers and That’s all, rest in piece to the British

[@steadyjumper3547]

Ww1 in a nutshell

[@dualrotorhelicopter]

@@infantrycola5701 rest in pieces

[@NotKnafo]

i think paradox should call the defense that relate to breakthrough and defense "avoidance" to avoid confusion

[@Vincrand]

wait, what?

[@NotKnafo]

@@Vincrand what unclear?

[@Vincrand]

@@NotKnafo it was a joke on the confusion part of your comment.

[@ender8887]

I think avoidance is worse. Like if the soldiers dodged bullets.

[@NotKnafo]

@@ender8887 but that what breakthrough and or defense technically means in the game chance to not get hit

[@GeeseAreDeadly]

This is what I have been looking for, thank you so much Most underrated hoi4 KZbinr

[@aleksandarmanojlovic4988]

Wait, can't you just make one 60 width division with absurd amounts of artilery and more small infantry divisions to be in combat with it and then no division would attack it?

[@71Cloak]

Yeah but that is a lot of extra micro.

[@Vincrand]

When on the offence your infantry will retreat faster, making it more likely that at some point you artillery division is the only division in the attack. When on the defence you most likely want artillery on the whole frontline, which is not really feasible and/or practicle if you do that with 60 width.

[@smlgd]

Kind of, but then if your infantry divisions all retreat your arty division will be melted because they have very low org and hp. Infantry divisions will lose quite fast because they'll be focused. So it can work as long as you're always microing to either keep the infantry divisions attacking or to have the arty division retreat early when defending (and losing). I'm not sure it's a viable strategy

[@vyacheslavfokin5535]

@@71Cloak 1) cover front line of 40 tiles with 40 fat divisions 2) cover same front line with 120 crap divisions Not that hard to pull off

[@SMGJohn]

AI builds a lot of 30 width and 40 width so your big chungus division would get roasted alive specially if it met a tank.

[@novinceinhosic3531]

this is super complicated if you don't know math and have some background of what the stats actually mean. It took me over 3 hours to figure out by experiment their relations and I'm still confused about certain details. But this explained most of it, thx!

[@kvlt1349]

go ahead and test the tactics multiplier yourself. mod the game: give guns same atk and def and brk, so you can control attacks over vs under def. remove weather, night, terrain, etc modifiers so they don't distract from the test. remove all tactics but one offensive that gives +100% and one defensive that gives +0% atk. slam two inf bricks into each other. if tactics applied at the atk stage, then the attacker should deal 5x damage to the defenders x. but it doesn't. it deals 2x. because tactics damage is a damage modifier and not actually an attack modifier. coincidentally, this is also why in some mods there was a thing known as tactics healing, where you reduced tactics damage to under -100% so attacks would deal negative damage (ie heal enemy divisions). this is also indicative of the fact that tactics is different from all other atk modifiers, because all atk modifiers are capeed at -99% individually and cumulatively. tactics is the only thing that can cause your damage to go negative (in mods that allow for under -100% total tactics damage of course).

[@sirundying]

this is why mods are trash for multi except road to 56

[@ypsirc]

According to the wiki the "Defense stats consumed to protect against the split attacks will be restored for the targeted attack." If this applies to Breakthrough (which I would assume it does) it changes your math on "critting" (exceeding the enemy defense/breakthrough values) substantually. Am I missing something here? Keep up the great work, you are one of the few guys who bases his opinion on maths an not feelings and vast assumptions. Thanks for your content, it is a joy to watch.

[@bitmode786]

That line in the wiki was just wrong. I have removed it.

[@santoast24]

I love the slide at the end as you go to hit end recording on OBS 10/10 would (and will) watch again

[@tryingtothink4412]

Thank you for these videos I can actually understand stuff now. You explain things well.

[@DarkJokingDragonSP]

Finally lol, I had given up on telling you about the division size targeting exploit. No youtuber reacted to it and I have been spreading the info at least since february lol. You didn't react either but you at least covered it now so thumbs up I guess.

[@soldieroffortune308]

Am I to correctly infer from this targeting quirk that I could bleed a 10 with spammer dry with minimal losses on my side by using some high soft attack 30-42 widths as long as I take care to pair them with 20 width infantry stacks in each combat?

[@shinyaltaria1388]

I thought your comment said 10 spanner and was really confused for a second

[@MrNicoJac]

This is a total mess and I almost understood it 😃 Thanks Stealth! And *oof* to Paradox for coming up with this system 😆

[@jimmyoflogerty9982]

Its like they dumped a large bucket of spagetti on the floor and then claimed it was a master class in intricate design.

[@americansoapproductstm8206]

Man I am never going to learn how to fight in hoi4

[@MrNicoJac]

@@americansoapproductstm8206 Sure you will, it's easy! Just forget about all the details, and aim for 15-30 width infantry divisions to hold the front. Give them truck recon and engineers and support artillery, and you're pretty good. Add AA or AT if you notice you need them. Secondly, make a 30(ish) width tank division. Keep its Org at least above 30, if possible above 40. A good rule of thumb is to add artillery or tanks in such a way that your soft attack is as close as you can get it to your breakthrough (but never higher). You can absolutely go for more breakthrough with less soft attack too, and sometimes that might be better, but it's still a reasonable rule of thumb that will work great against the AI. Thirdly, only attack with full planning bonus. Fourth, keep a close eye on your supply system, and build ports and railways where needed. Do those things, and you'll have learned how to fight in HoI4 (all the rest are minor details, and not _that_ crucial)

[@americansoapproductstm8206]

@@MrNicoJac K I think I am following what you're putting down. This can apply to every nation right?

[@MrNicoJac]

@@americansoapproductstm8206 Yes.... _and_ no? 🤔😅 Yes, it applies to all nations 😃 No, the smallest nations have _so little_ production, resources, and few research slots that it isn't really practical 🥲 (but for me, playing a tiny hamstrung nation isn't really fun anyway, cuz you can't really do anything🙄) Oh, and if you can, then adding in air superiority and CAS _really_ helps too! 💪🏼 (this does apply in all cases - but again, it costs extra factories, resources, manpower, research time, fuel, and now also building air bases - the cheap version is adding AA to your divisions, and that's imperfect but works well enough)

[@shibity]

Your videos are absolutely outstanding. I would love to see you mess around with some of the other PDX games or a playthrough of old blues/hoi4 mods (assuming you like them).

[@VictoryOTP_]

This blew my mind

[@guncolony]

6:27 Great, time to abuse the hell out of it by making 50+ width artillery divisions accompanied by 10 width brick tanks

[@imperial_scot2062]

what teachers meant when they said we would use math in real life

[@esprit7771]

thx for your video it's very helpful! can you make a video for damage calculation formula when CAS attacks land unit?

[@Joshtow167]

This is your 🧠 this is your brain following this formula 🍳

[@standasvestka]

I am once again asking you to make a video about the Roach tactic. How does mass mob. compare to GBP, namely for France and Soviets.

[@patricksimpson1157]

How did you ever discover that division width/ coordination trick? That can be a big negative for using smaller divisions that never even occured to me.

[@ivvan497]

Paradox explained how it works in dev diary

[@UCKszbcV]

How is it a negative for using smaller divisions?

[@Vincrand]

So if a division is more than 2x the width it won't be targeted if another division is already in combat. Wouldn't that result in the other divisions getting more focus fire? And wouldn't that result in an earlier retreat from those divisions?

[@TheMelnTeam]

Lol, can't you make something like 20-5 arty/inf for 70 width then throw a few roaches onto the province and have a division that's untouachable to the vanilla AI as long as the roaches hold out? That's pretty wild. Not sure how useful it is outside of edge cases, but it's funny to think about.

[@arthursandomine5464]

This video was soupposed to help with my confusion! sigh

[@gutsandgears]

W8.. did this video get reposted? I remember seeing this before

[@Sunny-gj6mh]

Thanks Cloak71. Did I miss it or did you not test how the tactics modifiers apply? You said 'some people say it's how it works,' but didn't actually test that here, right? A comment here claims it works that way too

[@richardstutt9164]

So is there some way to cheese the way that small divisions can't attack large divisions by having one massive division with no defence or org (say, all artillery) and then a couple of smaller divisions that have lots of defence? Could this potentially be more effective than the same stuff mixed into 3 identical divisions?

[@pubcollize]

11:50-12:55 smaller divisions *can* attack larger divisions, but they only attack one at a time.

[@richardstutt9164]

@@pubcollize 5:55 shows that the smaller divisions cannot attack a division more than 2x their combat width if there are any alternative targets that are less than 2x their combat width. The only way a smaller division can attack a massive division is if there are no other divisions in combat to target.

[@zoroasper9759]

I imagine that a full 50 width artillery division would be practically untargetable by anything less than 25 width if you send it into combat with 2 smaller divisions, I'd like to try this out soon

[@juhoalander3461]

then a single plane comes in and deletes your 50 width arty division, arty doesn't give hp

[@zoroasper9759]

@@juhoalander3461 Oh I know that I'm not going to use it in any real way, just wanted to see how it turns out I just tried it as ethiopia against italy and it works but it doesn't really make that big of an impact

[@tijmenwillard2337]

Following your logic on the number of secondary attackers, then shouldn't a 28 width be much better than a 30w?

[@astrogames8645]

I like your funny words magic man

[@0815firstuser0815]

Speed increases the initiative and this has an influence on the attack.

[@71Cloak]

It doesn't increase the actual initiative stat just the reinforment rate by a very small amount. It really isnt ever going to be a factor in anything.

[@Allen-fe1nq]

Still very helpful in 2024!

[@SMGJohn]

So how would you exploit this width selection? Can you pair a 40 width with multiple of 10's and the enemy only select those 10's? While your 40 width does main damage uncontested?

[@71Cloak]

Depends on enemy width. German ai tends to build 27 width inf so it wouldn't work against them. Most other countries seem to go for 20 width. So a 45 width supported by any width smaller than 41 would not get targeted. So you could build glass cannon divisions that won't get hit with some cheap divisions that take all the damage. Is that worth the micro? Idk. But you can do it. Also I dont know if they fixed it in BBA.

[@vaskbarebuks9760]

I’ve never ever seen someone using a calculator to explain a video game

[@execalibur4293]

so not use 30w tanks? math is hard for smooth brain papa cloak tell me the secrets of the tank

[@stratant.8722]

Most widths work just fine. There isn't the best width anymore.

[@execalibur4293]

@@stratant.8722 ah thank you I make historical divisions with all nations i play and i noticed it wasnt going well till i used some 30s Thank again for answer

[@lorenzooliveira1157]

It really doesn’t matter, I also use 30ws most of the time due to symmetry of battalions

[@CG-eh6oe]

He actually answers this in the video. 30w tanks will select up to 60 combat width as targets, spreading out their damage. The further you increase combat width, the more the damage might get spread out (and spread out damage is wasted damage as it gets blocked by the secondary targets defense). So the bigger your divisions are, the more of their damage is wasted. However, there are sharp cut offs depending on what you are fighting: If your oppoent has 20 width infantry, 30w tanks will be outperformed by 28w because they will select 3 targets instead of just 2. If they play with 24w inf or something, both a 30w and a 28w tank will select 2 targets. Aaaaand if your opponent has really high defense (or breakthrough) and you can't even overcome the primary targets defense, suddenly the spread out damage is no different to the targeted damage. There is also the flip side that a very big tank (e.g. 40 width) can't be attacked by inf that is below 20w, which might reduce your IC losses (because the infantry that is gonna eat the attacks instead is a lot cheaper). So overall, combat width is really hard to get right and therefor my advice is to just not worry and build something overall solid as ideal combat width not only depends on terrain, but also on the units you're fighting and the combat width of your other units.

[@execalibur4293]

@@CG-eh6oe if i was a female id marry you Thanks for all that

[@timucintarakc2281]

my brain hurts.

[@kleinerprinz99]

So would you say a 30ish width Tank division will perform better than 40ish tank division in most cases? Because 30width infantry templates performed the worst. Guess Tanks behave differently? Cheers.

[@71Cloak]

Really? 9/4 infantry divisions work great. You can cap the soviets in 4-5 months taking only 200k casualties with them. 9/4s are basically the most cost-effective source of soft attack in the game for infantry.

[@khongo1018]

@@71Cloak what support companies would you recommend? I was thinking aa, art, logistics, flame tank either eng or at

[@atakan.switching]

My Brain Hurts 🙇🏼‍♂️

[@VarenvelDarakus]

why take it down and reupload?

[@scipeary9633]

yea I was wondering the same thing lol

[@givemeRtxorgivemedeath]

maz breakthrough is 800

[@alirezaamini1303]

So technically anti tank is useless? Imagine an infantry division with 0 hardness but 3 battalions of anti tank. The formula doesn’t work does it? Maybe im just high

[@bitmode786]

It weighs *your* attacks according to *enemy* hardness.

[@71Cloak]

You have to consider the enemy's hardness not your own.

[@sirterry77]

People might ask, why would you care for those details. Well, try holding against Italy as Ethiopia in NSB, and suddenly this matters a lot.

[@MrNicoJac]

How does it matter? What can you do/change, in order to not-lose, knowing this?

[@sirterry77]

@@MrNicoJac just one example, in the first phase of the defence, the Italians will relentlessly charge the capital province. One division will be the main target, and even v though you're entrenched in the mountains, the defence isn't high enough to counter the combined focus, leaving you with org damage. Identifying the focused division and orderly retreating it to a safe province, while replacing it with a fresh one, is key to holding the capital. In the second phase, the Italians will bring much stronger divisions, and their generals have learned a trick or two about the terrain, so the previous tactic no longer works. Their breakthrough is too high for your low attack to stop them, so at this point, you need the first grand battleplan buff for extra entrenchment to hold them.

[@MrNicoJac]

@@sirterry77 Ah, that helps my understanding a lot, thanks! When do you retreat the targeted division though? I suppose you have to wait for a bit, and let it take some losses? 🤔 I mean, you can't cycle a division in and out every single hour, right? 😅

[@sirterry77]

@@MrNicoJac I generally give a retreat order when they're at about 50% org. It takes them a day to get away, but that's usually enough to let them retreat in good order. If they get routed, the materiel losses are unsustainable. There's also attrition from moving the rested division back in, so it can be a bit touch-and-go.

[@andriyshevchenko6689]

Idk I just beat them by making the cross country horizontal line. They spread out divs so they can’t focus you too hard in Addis Ababa. This is without even using tricks such as getting tons of cas lend lease from Germany (they did give guns tho)

[@TheCredfield]

Brain hurts oof

[@FreeMan4096]

could it be that Hoi4 coordination is the least fun game mechanic in history of video games? best to ignore. what a waste of computing power, though.

[@HornetMain]

Man, I hate maths.

[@mx-uf9lo]

came here to know how frontlines etc work and u bust out math, gtfo lmao