8-Bit Book Club: Tool Kit: BASIC and Kernal by COMPUTE! for Commodore 64 and VIC-20

[@alexheeb7012]

I'm the late Dan Heeb's son. Glad to see that people are still enjoying his work. I've been thinking about releasing his books into the public domain. My dad tried to get me into computer programming, but of course I had to rebel (especially after he tried to teach me REXX) and become a journalist. After he passed, I came across a big scoop that required data scraping, and realized that if I wanted to become a great journalist I needed to learn a programming language. So I taught myself Python and discovered I liked programming and have an aptitude for it. One thing led to another, and I recently got a job as an app developer. Just got my first Linux system in the mail today too. Joke's on me, I guess, but I bet dad would be pleased.

[@8_Bit]

Hi Alex, great to hear from you. That'd be excellent if you released your dad's books. They're among the best written for the Commodore computers. I'm happy to hear you've come around to programming, I'm sure he'd be proud!

[@AureliusR]

You could release them under Creative Commons. That way you retain the copyright, but people are free to use the works for their own benefit and for the knowledge of all humankind. It's the sort of thing computer people are into :) Also, congrats on getting into Linux! It's a great system. Python is a fun language; I first learned C and C++ but for a lot of stuff I use Python because it makes handling text and files so much easier. Would love to hear more about your dad sometime!

[@twobob]

Respect and smiles from here.

[@Grunchy005]

Ok I have to tell you about that “Compiler Design and Implementation,” that is another excellent book from Abacus Software. If you work through it you finish with a complete assembler that you create yourself. This was my hands-down most favorite book from the C64 era, and which got me started in machine language. Another treasure: anything from Jim Butterfield regarding floating point math operations. That guy was the true Wizard of Commodore.

[@thegoodrevbadandyarr4272]

Man, I cant tell you how many times I held those books and the mapping one in my hands at my local Waldenbooks with desire, but never had money for them as a kid (as it happens, this WB was on the bottom floor of the bldg that housed Berkeley Softworks, the GEOS coders).

[@merykjenkins3274]

Two astoundingly detailed books. I am in awe of the author. The wallpapering of stamps was the icing on the cake! Thanks Robin for a look and explanation of these two amazing references !

[@ted356]

Compute produced some excellent books. I loved the spiral binding that they did. I remember one called Machine Language for Beginners that focused on 6502 assembler, teaching how it compares to Microsoft Basic. Wish I still had my copy!

[@TimStCroix]

18:25 My favorite description of what, exactly, is a BASIC interpreter is that it's a simulation of a machine in which the machine language is BASIC.

[@haweater1555]

4:21 If you read out loud the true full title, it's: "Mastering Sight and Sound on the on the on the on the Commodore Sixty Four Sixty Four Sixty Four Sixty Four Sixty Four" .

[@richardhead8264]

_If all technical books were written with this level of detail and clarity, we would be a lot closer to reaching the stars. High accolades to Mr. Dan Heeb!_ ⭐ _I immediately downloaded the BASIC book for its section on computation of trigonometric functions. Countless other sources merely provide the application of the functions. But this book explains their derivation!_ 👏

[@DavidYoud]

Those are indeed outstanding books. I don't think I was aware of them either until Jim Drew sent me a big box of books that had both of them in it. So many pages to describe the "little" 8K ROMs.

[@0x007A]

I remember my Commodore VIC-20; still have it. Computers during the 1980s were a lot more interesting.

[@tfksworldoflinux]

In one of your videos you mentioned the C64 Programming guide. So I went and checked if it was available. At the second hand section of my local book selling site there was one person who had one on offer. This person wanted Eur. 350,- for it. I skipped that one. Later I saw an advert on a local classifieds site for a complete C64 with a faulty drive and some books. One of them was this book. So I bought a C64 to get a book.

[@mielikai]

That lengthy chapter about the tape routines reminded me of a funny story about how Andrew Pavlumanolakos wrote the first version of the Pavloda tape fast loader as his first C64 program in a day for a job interview. Of course Andrew got the job!

[@aresaurelian]

That these exist is amazing. What great foresight by the authors that this was needed.

[@quantass]

Robin, i really love your technical discussions. You make such topics accessible and fascinating to watch. Gimme MORE.

[@MrUSFT]

Boy, compute! Published some great books! Not just for the C64, but for a lot of the 8bit micros

[@ideegeniali]

Now we need a book that well written and comprehensive about vic II and raster effects. And another one on SID and trackers.

[@warphammer]

All the later Compute! books used that weird side-shrouded spiral binding. Always remembered that.

[@tenminutetokyo2643]

That is totally true about legacy code and no one being able to understand it. I was tech lead on a proj in the 90's for the Mac and it was a 2,000,000 line app. Some parts in the core were so bad no one dared touch them left we blow up the entire product and never be able to fix it. Some of the code was so dense and convoluted that no one could ever figure it out and the people who had written it had departed the company 10 years earlier.

[@redlinechaser7942]

I sure wish I had a fraction of the books you have on BASIC and Assembly language. I just love your videos so I can learn, learn, learn. Thanks!

[@circuithijacker]

Amazing books and description! Wonderful video are always! Your excitement is fantastic.

[@LeftoverBeefcake]

The SAMS Commodore 64/128 Assembly Language Programming is one of the books I'm working through at the moment, and is an excellent guide for those new to assembly like me. The example programs they use are for the Merlin, Panther and Commodore assemblers but it's fairly easy to translate those over to Turbo Macro Pro, with only a couple things tripping me up but were easily sorted after checking the TMP docs.

[@vcv6560]

TKK, was gold. Later when I had a first data structures class and the array buffer (linked list) was described I immediately remembered the coverage (and illustration) from this book's RS232 chapter. On being scarce the Colin West's Programming the VIC and Tool Kit Basic I stumbled on by accident at a technical bookstore Jan 85. I was eagerly waiting for TKK soon after, bought in December. Thank you Robin, I reached out to you after the West book was discussed on the show. I was thinking I was gonna' have to send you my set to see this review on your program. Please do a follow-up on the Compiler construction book (Abacus) its a very simple language processor but the fundamentals gave me flashbacks to days in college.

[@CutieHoney]

I had both of those books, so many years ago. I really loved them.

[@meneerjansen00]

You lucky man! I recently studied Mark Andrews' book on C64 Assembly programming to get (back) into the hobby. Had to do it from PDF. Always wanted to learn Assembly. Great book! I still keep a print of it's appendix on the alphabetical list of ASM mnemonics and explanations. It was hard to browse back and forth in a PDF e-book. You're lucky to own the printed book.

[@TimStCroix]

I remember seeing these books in magazine 'buy these' pages back in the late '80s and early '90s but the descriptions were so vague that it didn't seem worth the cover price. When I finally took a look at them (downloads) a few years ago my reaction was much like yours, "WOW!"

[@stephaneauger1036]

Canada #1 place for 80's console!----i have games commodore still wrapped---about 3 large large box nerver open since 1987 :) tommorow is the day 22-03-15 am going to the barn and bring house and open :).... i buy a farmhouse and the former owner was a seller of commodore products, the barn is full of products.. I am myself a collector I am in paradise

[@TheBreathez]

sweet, you in Ontario?

[@JeremyNasmith]

I hope you do make some vids detailing specific chapters/topics in these books with some examples or use cases. Fascinating!!!

[@briancannard7335]

I am so glad you got your hands on these books

[@davidmcgill1000]

I'm sure the post office enjoyed processing that box.

[@MurderMostFowl]

Using those stamps like that are really great fun to see!

[@metalfoot7]

This is incredible content. Wow.

[@londongaz2]

That whole stamp thing was unexpectedly delightful

[@scality4309]

Reminds me of Sid Meyers Pirates. He combined ML and BASIC.

[@Lion_McLionhead]

The amount of hard coded addresses is insane for an operating system, but the operating system in those days is equivalent to a register table in a modern microcontroller.

[@rotordave81]

How do you feel about the exclamation in COMPUTE! followed by an apostrophe? I thought that might bother you :) And BASIC is in capitals vs Kernal because it's an acronym, eh?

[@stevethepocket]

Supposedly KERNAL is also an acronym, "Keyboard Entry Read, Network, And Link". This was most likely cooked up after the fact to justify the misspelling, but the _Programmer's Reference Guide_ does write it consistently in all caps.

[@rotordave81]

@@stevethepocket Oh I see! good to know. It does sound contrived!

[@8_Bit]

Yeah, Commodore standardized on all-caps "KERNAL" even if it was originally just a spelling mistake for the word "kernel". Classic "act like you meant it" response. The exclamation mark in COMPUTE! doesn't really bother me; it was a goofy '80s thing. Pitfall! did it too :)

[@JeanGustave]

Danke!

[@8_Bit]

Thanks very much for your support!

[@LordRenegrade]

When I started large-scale emulation, I was rather shocked at the number of 8-bit machines that didn't have fullscreen editors. Also, I love how MONITOR-type programs interact with the fullscreen editor..

[@paulvanderlaak700]

Interesting books to study. Thanx for this episode Robin. 👍👌

[@csbruce]

4:12 Coles Notes are called "Cliffs Notes" in the US. According to Wikipedia, Coles came first and then sold the rights to Cliff Hillegass in the US. Coles was bought out by Indigo Books in Canada. 6:08 Hey, the CHRIN, GETIN, and SCNKEY routines in the illustration of the "BASIC" book are in the Kernal, not in BASIC! 14:20 Parenthe-SIS. It's Latin. 14:56 That's not really a great example of the author's gripe, since he's entered an illegal statement. 19:49 This would probably be one of the more useful things for machine-language programmers, since if you need floating-point calculations, you wouldn't want to implement them yourself! 25:49 Are the keyboards hardware-compatible? 33:24 "I messed up, I was too late. Wish I could go back, 6-4-7-3-8." 34:37 I prefer the redundancy. An acronym/initialism can be considered either an adjective or a noun, but the adjective is often more clear. 45:23 Fence-post error. 271 to 398 includes 128 pages.

[@Vector_Ze]

7:40 I thought, Oh my gosh, a glaring typographical error on the back cover. But, I guess it's just a speck of something turning an "O" into a "Q". I think I'll seek out the 'Toolkit: BASIC' in PDF.

[@FoxCunning]

Great video, I was not aware of those books. I wonder if they were published and sold in Europe too.

[@KryptKicker5]

Thank you for sharing! These really helped a bunch!

[@bozimmerman]

I ended up with a lot of C64 books in 2002 that I've never cracked, including these books. I feel so lucky I have Mr. Robin to check out these books for me!

[@scality4309]

So, these books belonged to you?

[@Breakfast_of_Champions]

Dude your duty to scan these to PDFs for world history. The sheer... expertise, and already in '84. The author must have started hacking on the first PET.

[@Eightbitswide]

Great EBay Score! I suspect most of us collectors have a handful of 1541 reference manuals. Lol

[@kingforaday8725]

I HAD a huge library of Commodore 64 and Amiga books and magazines, including the ones shown here One day the urge struck me to clean out my store room as I had moved on to PC's and hadnt looked at these items in many years. 😣☹

[@colinstu]

are those stamps not cancelled? there's no markings over them... so could they be reused? lol

[@8BitNaptime]

I wonder if you could copy the tape Kernal routines to RAM in the VIC-20 so you can modify it to save a cartridge image? As an exercise, of course.

[@mikegarland4500]

At 34:00 Step 11, can you just set your PAL C64 to use an NTSC monitor, and vice versa? Or is there some issue with not being able to see the output video signal to even get to that step in the first place? Because I always assumed you had to have a PAL version C64 to work with European TV sets(?) and an NTSC C64 for North American(?) TVs.. I know the VICE emulator lets you switch back and forth at will, although the only differences I've seen mentioned were some things about certain timings. (IIRC)

[@mikegarland4500]

@ad0am I figured that had to be the case, but wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying.

[@MarianoLu]

Please save those stamps!!!!!!!! They are awesome 😎

[@it5190]

Yes!! I’ve found another ASMR channel!

[@what-uc]

An unbroken sheet of stamps is probably worth 3 or 4 times the value of the stamps

[@8BitNaptime]

Given their age I'm surprised the adhesive was still good. How do you get them wet? Paint roller?

[@MurderMostFowl]

@@8BitNaptime maybe a helpful family dog ;)

[@colinstu]

"NMI Interrupt" is funny... since it stands for Non-Maskable Interrupt. It's like saying ATM Machine. IRQ too

[@alangiles8103]

I have been trying to find a copy of "Vic-20: The Affordable Learning Tool for the Mature Adult", a paperback published in the USA Paperback in 1983 by J.A. Mail,but with no luck. Does anyone know if this book is available anywhere on line?. Thanks for anyone who might see this and respond

[@8_Bit]

Must be a very rare book as I've never heard it, and I also couldn't find any copies anywhere online including ThriftBooks which is my usual "secret weapon" site. WorthPoint has also never indexed a sale of it. Sorry! Good luck, hopefully it'll turn up eventually.

[@alangiles8103]

@@8_Bit Thanks for taking the time to look for me

[@scality4309]

Wish i had these book when i had my C64.

[@NuntiusLegis]

With the ongoing retro computing trend, I wonder why not more books get reprinted.

[@williammckeever4790]

lol, I remember when Canadian postage was 2 cents a stamp.

[@twobob]

*cough* TheC64 *cough* oh the fun you can have now. Expecting ninja level "Hacker Style" interface with 1's and 0's floating around the screen with the automated clatter of mechanical keys furiously rewriting the core premise of Sort on C64 to encompass the new AlphaDev revelations ;)

[@Light-DelaBlue]

wen i buy a soviett walkman the seller do the same x3 i still got them ^^

[@logiciananimal]

Has anyone compiled a list of all of Compute's titles?

[@generalkilbabathemadmansch3602]

They didn't seems to void the stamps :D

[@bobdefalco]

Wouldn't work in the US. Our postal service wouldn't be able to do the math.

[@MrUSFT]

That's a lot of stamps! Lol

[@dr.ignacioglez.9677]

I LOVE C64 👍🥂🎩

[@jamesbromley5820]

Mr. Heeb seems to have sadly passed away in 2019.

[@alexheeb7012]

See my comment in the main thread

[@LordmonkeyTRM]

Polynomial Computation?!

[@DAVIDGREGORYKERR]

If only the COMMODORE C64 had a Math chip to make mathematical operations faster might also make games run faster.

[@pauldeane8369]

I wish my young mind could have had the patience and appreciation for these books back in the day...but alas... LDX was too weird looking and scary.

[@scality4309]

Stamps are unstamped.

[@przemekbundy]

commodore 64 old machine. new secrets are constantly being discovered. still curious and fascinating. the technique goes fast. maybe too fast in some respects. today's processors, computers, programming techniques. even quantum computers. I personally do not understand it all. because there is too much of it. and I wish I had such a versatile brain. to move like a fish in water. in this case, is life supposed to consist of viewing guides? is it worthwhile to enjoy writing simple programs? a couple of rulers. where, in fact, apart from the fact that other techniques work well. nothing new such an approach brings. in addition to fun, memories. momentary tasting. greetings.

[@tommyhatcher3399]

Don't care about games. Don't care about computers. What I do care about is history and treasure. Any stickers from the 80's you find on a box is just as valuable as the package itself, as far as I'm concerned. I'm commenting on where you said you like the price tag. Breaks my heart when people scrap that stuff. Especially labels for old video stores or arcades.

[@8_Bit]

I agree, I usually leave the stickers and price tags on things, especially when they have any kind of character or individuality to them.

[@tonysofla]

I finally got around to OPEN SIDE BORDER with 8 sprites PAL/NTSC kzbin.info/www/bejne/jqiykJ-GjN2knMU

[@retrogameroom9019]

Why don't we fox them

[@lowlevelretro]

lol

[@haweater1555]

Post office charged a $1 extra for the annoyance of tallying all those stamps. The sender didn't have to pay GST on those stamps! Often receive stamped letters it seems Canada Post is too lazy to cancel them. Yet when I tried to cut out the stamps and glue them onto a new piece of mail it gets a handwritten rejection as I'm "not supposed to reuse [𝘶𝘯𝘤𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘥] stamps" .