🔴 ALL THE RAGE 🔥 Age of the [SPR - Special Purpose Rifle] - Gun Trend Talk 🔴

[@9HoleReviews]

Correction here: @ModernTacticalShooting Jeff's picture is from 2015, not 2013. He kindly reminded me that the VCOG did not exist in 2013. Also slight error on the 1913 rails. While they are dimensionally slightly different, the core design was from weaver, another civilian source. Time Stamps: @00:00 Countdown @5:43 Episode Begins - Introduction @11:15 Identifying the Capabilities of an SPR @13:50 Components of the MK12 Solution @21:10 Why was the MK12 the Chosen Solution @23:30 Historic Progression of Carbines in the Era @28:35 What is the URGI @30:25 Henry Identifies the Capabilities Gap @33:30 Most Modern Carbines Meet Original SPR Capabilities @38:00 @ModernTacticalShooting and the Block II in Afgan @44:00 Why is the "SPR" Trending Now @53:35 Pop Culture Influence @1:00:45 Henry on WHY SPRs are Trending @1:06:24 Patreon Q&A @1:16:34 @ModernTacticalShooting Joins the Chat @1:20:30 Jeff's Gamer Gun vs Fighting Gun @1:24:00 Final Thoughts

[@ShockerMain2124]

Talk about the optic riser trend

[@9HoleReviews]

@@ShockerMain2124 Ooooh this is a good suggestion :D

[@cw7legionofpewrights596]

The shorty trend

[@zactanner5187]

You guys gotta check out Mountains Mullets Merica. Very relevant to this video. He has done many videos about pushing unconventional stuff out to long range.

[@chrisj683]

Josh hit the golden note at 46:10 As the capability of weapons platforms increase, the goalpost of “SPR” shifts. What was achievable only with specialty high-dollar kit in 2000 is well within the capability of a mid-tier rifle today. Doesn’t mean every mid AF AR is an SPR. We’ve just redefined what the GPR is, and weapons which are better than that in specific contexts become utilized for those special purposes. If everyone has something, it’s not special. It becomes the new normal.

[@Impossibly-Possible]

everyone having it doesnt mean its not special, you are confusing rare with special

[@chrisj683]

@@Impossibly-Possible ​​⁠​​⁠Well, I’m talking capability and the evolution of the battlefield, not rarity or speciality. As the capability of the average rifle increases, it becomes the new standard of weapon that has to be bested in order to gain advantage in combat or competition. If you only need to shoot further and more accurately than a Cold War enemy whose basic infantry is equipped with the AK-47, an M16-A1 will do nicely. Once many or most forces globally have access to the newest AR platform with prism sights (or lvpo scopes), holographic sights, PEQ-15’s and dual tube Nods, coms equipment, etc. as their main weapons system then an A4 with a scope is actually behind the curve, or maybe average. An SPR for the modern battlefield has thermal, or target recognition AI, or that wacky stuff the US military is trying with the digital battle space enabled smart scopes where you can drop waypoints on and track targets. And then when those are standard issue…the goalpost shifts again.

[@jamesgunnyreed]

Recce Rifle, Battle Rifle, SHTF Rifle, Carbine, Long Range, etc... I remember back when the M16A2 was a Recce Rifle, Long Range Rifle, CQB/CQC Rifle, Paratrooper Rifle, and a Battle Rifle. Today I believe a decent 16" AR with a good LPVO, good sling, and backup irons (possibly a light) is all I need.

[@RADIOACTIVEBUNY]

That's the secret. It is. Want an SPR? Get 99% of the performance with 77gr ammo and a 2-10. Want a Recce/GPR? LPVO. 16" guns are great.

[@LRRPFco52]

When the M16A2 family of rifles and carbines was introduced, they replaced the following with subsequent models like this: M16A1 replaced by M16A2 M16A1/M203 combo replaced by M16A2/M203 combo XM177E2 replaced by Colt 733 Colt 653 (M16A1 Carbine) replaced by Colt 723 M16A2 Carbine and 727 Carbine There was also a 9mm SMG and an HBAR LMG that fired from the open bolt. There was no Long Range RIfle. M16A2 was the Infantryman’s Rifle and general service rifle for the US Army and USMC. 723 was Army JSOC Commando carbine. 727 was the Ranger Regiment and SF select personnel carbine, as well as carbine for Naval Special Warfare that replaced their Colt 653s. Biggest change was the 1/7 twist so the new M855 and M856 ammunition could be shot through them.

[@idkidk7985]

Keep it simple and aggressive

[@tylerdoestech]

I just wanted to drop here to remind us all that Nutnfancy circa 2013 brought the SPR concept to KZbin without trying to clone a Mk12 for very realistic reasons.

[@themastermason1]

I feel this is a case of people had to arrive at the conclusion themselves rather than be told.

[@RevolverOcelot79]

Ah yes. The man who turn 15 minute videos into hour long torture sessions. No thanks...

[@tylerdoestech]

@@RevolverOcelot79, The height of irony is that you replied to a comment on a 2 hour video about a niche development of the M16. Think of his product what you will, there is no question that his reviewing style and videos were the pioneering benchmark that ushered the way for the tactical gear reviewers of today.

[@tylerdoestech]

@Kevin Wittwer, He has some great information in them, although they are a bit more watered down today than they were between, say, 2008-2013.

[@grben9959]

​@@tylerdoestech The problem isn't the 2hours, it's the constant self-congratulatory bloviating to cover for having little content. He could fill the time actually talking about the thing or the tests he's doing and it wouldn't be a problem. I watched a Nutn review recently on the Ruger SFAR and he made mention of a magazine article that he wasn't going to go into detail on because of time constraint. I googled it and read the article before he got on to actually saying anything.

[@gulkash1188]

so happy to see BrassFacts and Hop getting some recognition on this topic.

[@brandonrupp5880]

Nutnfancy was the OG of going to the hills and shooting at distance. Too bad his vids have gone down hill in recent years.

[@canadianpatriot2498]

​@Brandon Rupp Nutnfancy doesn't get enough respect. Yeah he's kind of boomer now, but he's the OG.

[@christopherdolan7330]

You mean AssFacts and Tactical Ellen DeGeneres?

[@PeopleFromYourSchool]

The crush washer king? The shooting at an active highway champion?

[@MrThewetsheep]

Brass facts the og of the spr

[@KR1EGL3R]

If Henry is going to complete his "Special Poverty Rifle" idea, it means that he's casually gonna drop the ULTIMATE "Just as good" Meme of all time, and i just can't wait to see the results of that! :D

[@pdjr1991]

I really really hope they build one and do a review

[@Driver-ur9mf]

Have not found it yet.

[@N7mudkip]

PSA with an MBT 2S trigger and some cheap 1-6 lpvo will get you hits at 500y with good ammo

[@ChaohsiangChen]

The trend begins at 16", than 10.5, then 11.5, 12.5, 13.7, 14.5, jump to 18 and ends in 20". Then the next gen gun owner will strat from 16" again. It will go round and round until each AR builder have a safe full of rifles and pistols with barrels of different lengths.

[@joquin4618]

“Circle of BARREL length life” 🎵

[@SnapD24]

* hangs head in shame* I'm already there.

[@paul7from7ukr]

The popularity of sub 16” barrels correlated with the popularity of pistol braces. I don't have high hopes for the future of braces, so 14.5 pinned or 16" rifles will probably be here to stay for a while.

[@donteh58]

Got of the industry hype train last year ditching my 11.5 for a 16 and 20. because I carried a M16A4 half my career. I

[@dionysis84]

Oh yeah

[@jkellyid]

DMR is long range support weapon that favors accuracy over volume of fire. SPR is defined opposite GPR. typically extending/maximizing the effective range of the platform and caliber. Recce is more weight oriented and will concede maximal range to save some weight. This is how I understand these types of builds

[@joquin4618]

Good take.

[@QuitYoJibby-JabbinFool]

Very good take

[@ozarkman291]

Careful navyman will try to claim you infringed copyright on those terms

[@LRRPFco52]

DMR = SPR. They keep the ammunition and magazines compatible within small units as much as possible. The battle rifle platforms violated this principle while trying to fill the role. Recce is a misnomer applied to outsiders looking at JSOC Sniper Troops who wanted a "CAR-15”- based accurized light sniper support weapon. They had been using 723s with Ops Inc 2-piece collar mount suppressors since the late 1980s, with optics mounts in the carry handle for Aimpoints, but started putting early LPVOs on them to provide accurate fires from advanced reconnaissance positions put in-place before Assaulters went in. When KAC came out with the SR-25 Match Rifle in the late 1980s-early 1990s, they introduced a fiberglass free-float tube and 2-stage trigger. Bushmaster also had a V-MATCH Varmint rifle set-up for AR-15s with an aluminum free-float tube. Unit Snipers asked the armorers to build free-float uppers for them using these 2 main types of 12” rifle-length handguards, with FSB pocket cuts so they still had their iron sights as back-ups. With a sleeved handguard over the barrel and Ops Inc suppressor, they looked kind of like MP5SDs. Depending on the mission, they would attach Harris 6-9 Bipods, AIM-1 LAMs, Surefire WLs, or PAQ-4s on little rail sections drilled and tapped into the handguards. They had Black Hills and Hornady load 69gr SMK and 68gr BTHP match loads for them for their precision shots, but also blasted a lot of M855 through those carbines. The whole purpose was to have a fighting carbine like their normal 723s, but that also were precision carbines with optics and suppressors for the local sniper support role. Since Snipers do advanced TGT Reconnaissance, they were called “Recce” carbines, as The Unit used a lot of terminology from their SAS progenitors. NSW guys from Dam Neck saw them and wanted the same thing from their armorers, built on their 727s. Some of them used straight aluminum float tubes with no FSB cut, low profile/shaved FSB underneath, with the Ops Inc can coming out from the handguard. There’s a photo of Sawman Sawyer with one like that but after they got M4s, so it has an M4 upper and PEQ-2 at 12 o’clock, Harris bipod mounted more to the rear of the handguard. Both of these types of carbines inspired Sniper Committees in SF and SEAL Teams to push forward with the SPR program. The SPRs got way heavier than they needed to be, and departed from the fighting carbine concept. Once the SOPMOD Block II rails, Geissele triggers, and different LPVOs became available, use of the SPR diminished and it was put out to pasture by ODAs and SEAL Platoons. The original JSOC Sniper Troop carbines meet the requirements of a DMR and fighting carbine. The one area they struggled with was clip-on NVDs in front of the objective. This is where the full-length rail SPR, SOPMOD Block II, and URGI carbines excel. The most overlooked aspect of Recce, SPR, and DMR carbines are the Night Vision configurations and capabilities that really were pioneered in JSOC.

[@brandonrupp5880]

I love how Henry is looking out for us poors. Just As Good Rifle.

[@509Gman]

Got the moves like JAGR

[@JG54206]

The reason (as I understand it) for the 18in barrel on the Mk12 was that the request for purchasing match grade 20in barrels was rejected due to the military bean-counters arguing that the program could use the normal 20in barrels already in inventory for the M16. These barrels obviously wouldn’t work for the program because they wouldn’t be accurate enough but they were denied permission to purchase other 20in barrels. They rewrote the request to have an 18in barrel because there weren’t any of them in inventory that they would have shoved at them in an attempt to cut costs.

[@JG54206]

@@ChappySinclair velocity wasn’t really the issue as far as performance went. Remember the Mk12 went hand in hand with the Mk262 ammo which is much less sensitive to velocity loss over distance.

[@funkla65]

Yep, goes to show why binding oneself to going with 18" is silly.

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

SOCOM rejected the SF's request to buy Glock 17s to supplement their M9s, SOCOM said 'you already have a full size pistol, no can do', so then SF requested a "compact" handgun and wrote the request around the Glock 19 Gen 3, and SOCOM said sure. If I had to guess, the 18" barrel was probably done for the same reason. "Why do you need a new rifle, you already have a 20" 5.56 rifle" kind of stuff.

[@ReticentIndignation]

There's a video that SmallArmsSolutions did with Monty from Centurion Arms and he echoed that. There were many opinions and thoughts between branches and higher ups so they had to compromise. They had 16" and 20" so why make a new rifle when it's been done? Kinda silly.

[@floridahdshooter]

Great video.. for me the best part was the fact this video had all the elements of every zoom meeting I have ever had.. "can you hear me?" "your clock is distracting" " you are not presenting the latest deck" on on.. Love it..

[@9HoleReviews]

Live sessions aren't our specialty - is it obvious?!

[@Bob-bf3cg]

After this talk I’d like to see a practical accuracy test on M16a4 and M4a1 Block 1 clones with modern medium range optics + MK262 ammo. I’d be willing to be that even without a free floated rail they’d come close to the SPR concept. I believe this military lore of the Block 1 being a 300 meter gun comes down to the service life of the Block 1. They were used and abused for decades.

[@alphahotel3446]

If i recall correctly, when the Marines started issuing the SAM-R that was a accurized A4 rifle they only getting issued to east coast units and the west coast units were using standard A4 rifles with ACOGs, bipods, and MK262 ammo and calling them the west coast SAM-R.

[@lovemym16]

All Marine M16A4s after 2011 had been outfitted with TA31RCOs. This proved more effective than having a designated marksman as everyone had magnification greater than most WW2 snipers.

[@GFCat]

It's interesting to see how the capabilities of a GPR and SPR have sort of converged, which has sort of pushed the goal post of what an SPR is by necessity. I really agree with Josh's assessment at the end though, getting caught up in labels defeats having a nuanced understanding of what your rifle is capable of. If you have a 16" rifle with a 1-8x LPVO and it's capable of pressing past 600y, is it an SPR? Does it even matter what you call it? Don't get hung up on meaningless qualifiers. Build your rifle for what you need. Take it out, test it, and if it doesn't clear the metrics you set for it, take it back to the drawing board and try again!

[@ung427]

Model airplanes, don't forget model airplanes. Hobbyists were flying predator drones way before they existed.

[@RevolverOcelot79]

This statement makes no sense. They couldn't have flown what hadn't been created yet....

[@ninjasquirrels]

Goon Life and Brass Facts got me hooked on the 18” AR-15’s - I will be going to a class in the fall with my brother in law and my niece.

[@MrCashewkitty]

I actually did this poverty SPR. I have a WOA 18 inch SPR barrel and a Toolcraft BCG in a PSA upper, mostly, and an 80% lower. Threw a Viper PST and a Larue MBT in it. RR charging handle as well. Fun gun for sure. Killed a small buck with it last year at a couple hundred yards.

[@homesteadernation]

I think the reason the SPR is to popular is actually quite simple: people want to accessorize their AR's. What do you accessorize an AR with? Optics, of course! How do you improve upon the basic design? Free-float tubes. After enough playing around with accessories, most people adding to their AR will end up with some sort of free-floated, scoped rifle that resembles the Mk 12.

[@orientalornamental]

The 18" barrel was chosen for two reasons, it was pointed out a 20" 5.56 rifle already existed (M16A4) and therefore there was no possible need for 20" SPR; the other was a disagreement between two SF groups (don't remember which tbh), one wanted 16" the other 20" so they split the difference. I do have a counterargument as to why MPVOs are getting more popular, and I think it's to do with LPVO dominance fading. At competition (those that push past 300 specifically), I've seen more and more complains on LPVO effectiveness at distance, and more guys switching to them to get better glass, parallax adjustment, and better FOV at high magnification. LPVOs are still by far the most popular option, but more people are realizing they aren't the be all end all of optics selection.

[@shockashoota]

I never much noticed a need for parallax until I was shooting into shady woods on a sunny day. Although not in the way the low hanging branches and trees at different distances completely blinded me of the target . Despite having plenty of zoom power without being able to filter depth of field I could not see it . Definitely made me go . Hmmmmm

[@rskybsns481]

I switched out my 1-8 LPVO in favor of a 2-12 for the parallax adjustment. Those small tubes with a magnification factor of 8x leave very little room in terms of forgiveness in the way of parallax. I like your take on it.

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

The thing that always caught me on the LPVO is the fact that they're sold as all purpose optics, having a 1x that can replace a red dot...... _but everyone saddled a red dot on their LPVO equipped rifles anyways_ There's obviously a problem with their low end because people still feel the need to go out of their way and slap a red dot on, and if the 1x is that bad then why bother. We also saw this with the ELCAN, so it's not new. The 1.5-6x has an excuse, but even the 1-4x models were being shipped with red dot mounts built in like the 1x was just lacking something. It's why I'm getting a 3-18x optic for my "SPR". It was going to be a 2-10x, but I heard about the 3-18s coming out and waited.

[@randomidiot8142]

Piggy back reddot on an mpvo isn't that bad of an idea. The trend to mpvo in comps might be an acknowledgement of micro red dot development that allows/enables you to use a non 1x main optic. Living in a non vacuum environment thing.

[@gcanaday1]

​@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballzI have this feeling that the reason people complain about the 1x on LPVOs is because they can subject it to a minimal test with just their eyeballs. Good luck testing a 1.5x: "is this 100 meter away 6' target REALLY 9' in the glass?" No one is going to bother verifying it.

[@JordanYee]

I've always found the shifting relationship between use-case defined and specification defined gear to be interesting. This whole conversation between mk12 and mk18 really reminds me of some of the conclusions Ian and Karl were arriving at in 2017 with the very first WWSD series. They originally envisioned a DMR build at 18" and a general purpose build at 14", and what they concluded was that with the improvements in barrels, 77-grain ammo, and better optics, that the DMR build was actually the general-purpose rifle, and the 14" was actually the more specialized CQB platform. "Yesterday's DMR is today's rifleman" is the way they phrased it if I recall. The rifles remain the same, but the roles have all shifted by a notch given the effective range granted by modern optics.

[@The_PotionSeller]

I enjoy that the AR is so good that 99% of discussions involving modern rifle setups come down to how long of a tube you should have, and what kind of glass you put on top. We've reached peak design, we're now just squeezing the last couple drops of juice out for efficiencies sake

[@SantosGunworks]

I wonder if the shift to the SPR is because people have gotten tired of wasting ammo blasting stuff at 5 yards away. I have a lightweight 18” build with a Nightforce NX-8 1-8 that I compete with using the Sierra 77 SMK ammo, but I train with the Hornady 55 Gr FMJ. For me, precision type shooting is a lot more fun than wasting ammo at close range. Just my thoughts.

[@QuitYoJibby-JabbinFool]

Very good comment

[@mikeborrelli193]

The Picatinny Rail was not developed by the US Military.. It was developed by Swan and that rail was then (Standardized) by the Arsenal at Picatinny.. And the Swan rail was just an iteration of the Weaver rail with evenly spaced slots.

[@williamflowers9435]

Chris Bartocci approves of this message

[@MrCashewkitty]

​@@williamflowers9435dude is a wealth of knowledge

[@LRRPFco52]

JSOC were using Weaver rails on 723s already back in the late 1980s. KAC was more responsive to their requests, and KAC had a Weaver-style rail with evenly-spaced slots on its early SR-25 Match Rifles and SR-25 Standard Rifle. JSOC Armorers took some of the early SR-25 fiberglass free-float handguards and mounted them to Colt 723 carbines, but with FSB pocket cuts, and little sections of rails placed where each operator wanted them. Some Sniper Troop operators had armorers install Bushmaster V-MATCH knurled float tubes with the same approach, with drilled and tapped rail sections into the handguard.

[@1127fctwosw]

at the end of the day...the barrel/ammo was the heart of the OG 18" SPRs. once they got in the field stuff got swapped out (there is a pic floating around of a GWOT SPR sporting a Magpul MOE A1/A2 stock)...

[@robertobonnie4400]

I good “all the rage” trend could be the new rush for 2011s or double stack 1911s, that would be fun!

[@WitchKing575]

for the SPR-poverty look at a complete psa or aero rifle, then find a mid tier optic in like a 3-18- or 2-12 range of your choice for reticle selection, if required replace barrel from a known quantity source if it doesn't perform, throw in the larue mbt2s if you see a sale (since i would assume that barrel and optic would be the main point of performance degradation)

[@brandonrupp5880]

Larue mbt2s is the a crazy good trigger for $90.

[@Man_Emperor_of_Mankind]

Larue makes a really good trigger. Their barrels are also very impressive

[@Borderline5440]

Henry trolling with the "Special Poverty Rifle" is rather on point because I have a complete PSA AR with an 18" FN CHF barrel and topped it with a Primary Arms ACSS 4-14x52 OPMOD with holds for 5.56. All told, it's going to be reasonably capable for $950.

[@mrkeogh]

Randomly scrolled to get past the countdown and landed exactly on Henry saying "And we are...live!" Today is going to be a good day 😄

[@mavrikmavrik3032]

I have no idea why but my HUXWRX QD-556 tightened my groups significantly. As an example one ammo type went from 1.5 to .92 MOA at 100 yards. All of my 69, 75 and 77 gr ammo had similar improvements.

[@KidCorporate]

Having some weight at the end of your barrel tends to improve barrel harmonics, my 18" guns tend to shoot better with cans on them.

[@ES44AC-2]

You have got to make a decal for " Special Poverty Rifle " 😂. Love it ! Mine is a PSA 18in rifle length gas running 77gr. I'm running a higher power scope so I don't have to bring a spotter is the only difference. 9 hole helped me go down this road and I love it. I've even got a speedway course, but only to 500 yards. Ive also got a 20in 6.5 Grendel 4-16x50 that does great, just MUCH more expensive to shoot for fun. It is a deer slayer though.

[@levinlevinallday]

How does the PSA shoot? Is it a stainless or chromoly steel barrel?

[@bobbygray496]

@@levinlevinallday I have the PSA with the 18" wylde416R stainless barrel....dead center X on cold bore shot...I would say it shoots really well unless you heat the barrel up too much and then the shots start to wander!

[@Bjshocky]

Just fyi the audio and video appear to be out of sync. Even though you appeared to be talking from the start, the audio with you guys speaking starts at 5:43. (Not that it is necessary since this is more of a podcast)

[@fubar1217]

Yeah, but when they put up slides to reference a version of the AR they're talking about, it's nice for the image to match up with what they're talking about.

[@9HoleReviews]

@@fubar1217 Just youtube doing youtube stuff - should be fixed now

[@pq7185]

I am trying to push a 24" 1 in 8 upper to 804 yards to hit a 8" plate with handloads. I am about to change powders but I am also really tempted to get the barrel threaded for a can and barrel tuner to get the extra FPS while keeping the groups sub MOA. I started putting my time towards this project after spending a day shooting 100 rounds of M80 ball out of a 16" 308. If I had an unlimited budget, I would get a 16 or 18x ATACR and will probably get an adjustable stock soon

[@randomidiot8142]

Barrel tuners are a waste of ammo. Changing seating depth has a more significant effect on groups than a tuner.

[@exodusz19]

Great Stuff! Love the analysis on the modern “trends” and makes me feel all the more confident in my firearm setups. Would love to see a deep dive into choosing a suppressor!

[@christopherwisby8926]

My special poverty rifle 18” PSA upper, FN CHF barrel, viper 4-16, larue trigger, RMR piggy back, freedom munitions 77gn remans. Will put print 10rds sub Moa all day long. Not saying it’s a substitute for a gucci rifle. But works for me.

[@mackj23]

I would love to see a psa or aero milspec receiver set with a douglas/rainier arms match barrel and trigger that can compete with the URGI/SPR at range

[@themastermason1]

I feel a version of the M16A5 concept would make a good SPR. A 20" barrel with a free float handguard and the collapsible stock allows for good range with adjustablility and compactness.

[@themastermason1]

@@TheHouseAlwaysWins-xs8zd I feel like the role of a hypothetical M4A2 has been filled by the HK416/M27 IAR or the SIG MCX Spear Lt. The last thing for a 5.56 rifle with a sub-20" barrel is adaptations that allow for better supressabilty.

[@onesuchasi]

I think my current two most favorite firearms channels are ‘9-Hole Reviews’ with their practical accuracy course + the discussions and ‘Paul Harrell’ with his beginning of time explanations along with his pragmatic approach to topics. Would also love love love to see a Special Poverty Rifle build using a top of the line barrel. Definitely get a Bartlein and / or Krieger Barrel ✌️

[@bfdadventure]

Special Poverty Rifle. Man, I was busting a gut on that! Kinda close to that. I'd suggest Aero Precision and Ballistic Advantage with the Primary Arms scope. I took an Aero Receiver set with WOA 18" SPR to 905 17 for 20 on 7-10mph. 20"X13" target. Leupold 2-10X42 duplex reticle. Hornady 4DOF App a great help tho!

[@jbeauchamp1583]

2003 I was issued a AMU build SPR (FN M16A2 base) with a Elcan thermal sight. Worked wonders during the 2nd Battle of Fallujah. I only worked at night. 6 friggin months straight. I hated that damn thing. It was hell getting in and out of vehicles. Everyone called it the "Fukn Musket". However, on more than one night, it was worth it's weight in Gold.

[@zlink8]

This was fantastic, please keep the gun trend talks going! MPVO chat next up because people realized high magnification LPVOs have some tradeoffs? Special Poverty Receiver would be very fun as well, Primary Arms has their Expo series that is pretty cheap but nice but otherwise I say go Aero unless the Anderson memes win you over.

[@meanman6992]

Far as lowers and uppers, if it’s 7075-T6 alloy, and machined to spec, the name on the side really doesn’t matter.

[@Serenityindailylife]

In the 2009, our DM's were short on m14's. My command allowed me and my armorers to create a replacement upper program to fill the role for our more urban teams. I talked with people at Model 1 sales who built my upper for my run at Presidents 100. Our DMs were experienced shooters, a few were police snipers who joined post 9/11. We built out 20in uppers with Knights rails using Lothar barrels and 2 that were krieger because they ran out of LW barrels. I bought an extra for myself to put away. The 2 Kriegers were held back for emergency deployment at the company armory. The rest were used very effectively and I kept stats on them. It was funny to see the rest of the units follow suit and SOCOM officially do it. We gave leupold gold ring rangefinders because there were none of the military NSN models available. We had to get nikons for our 2 reserve kits. The scopes we used were mk4 medium range turrets/reticle. We issued 1000 rounds for each team of black hills 77gr ammo. I hadn't seen the. Mk12 specs at that point. It's funny because I based my specs off of my previous experience in Afghanistan and with 3gun. I was on one of the earliest 3gun teams in Lakeland, fl where 3gun was created. I shot with a team that was made up of 4 Somalia Veterans and a Panama Veteran. They shaped what I ended up spec'd. We had 3 engagements over 600m in Afghanistan all were hits in 5 or less shots. I made a 700m target at one point. The poverty rifle would be just as good. You would have a hard time ever wearing out a lower.

[@stevailo]

Listened to this while reloading, great content! Would love an episode about 2011s as “tactical/duty”pistols, the perfect sidearm to SPR as a trend

[@TakNuke]

With modern parts a 16 inch AR with 2 inch more for suppressor (which covers exposed barrel backwards to increase volume without increasing the forward length like in M110) is the ultimate all purpose rifle which can reach 700m comfortably with 77gr and can be used for cqb if needed. With 20inch 800m is possible reaching the area alloted to battle rifle with enough punch. While a 14.5 inch barrel modern AR will reach 600m the base performance of 55gr 20 inch barrel AR. The most difficult part is the above mentioned suppressor because without it or with a longer one the advantage of a short barrel is negeted. Alternatively a 20 inch bullpup can achieve more but only now after market support has come together to workout its deficiencies. In the end its upto user.

[@BuckFoeJiden]

A 12.5"-13.7" 6.5 Grendel would make a great short SPR 6.5 in those barrel lengths in 123 gr beats or matches 16"+ 7.62x39s energy and velocity. A much longer, higher BC projectile could definitely reach longer distances.

[@joeymedina7115]

Yeah I learned about the mk12 and sprs from y’all first. And fell in love with Henry’s Mod0

[@thebird8039]

I’d say they’re popular because you can shoot out to 700y/800y and still not pay over a dollar a round for decent ammunition. Good training and fun with friends especially when you see someone hit beyond 500y for the first time.

[@RonnocYad]

A powerpoint sin has been committed white letters with a super light background. I enjoyed putting this on in the background as I reload then end up paying attention to the talk and double loading my rounds!

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

Twice the powder, twice the stopping power!

[@Minutes-Mils]

My preferred SPR/GPR: 13.7 Midlength gas, bootleg adjustable bolt carrier, 1-6 lpvo, 75-77 grain HPBT, Larue 2s Trigger, suppressed. Same length as a 20in with an A2 flash hider.

[@RazorCityDen]

I have enough acreage in a rural area to get to 600 yards on my place and it’s rumored there might be steel on the adjoining State section of land that boarders my place to 800yrds. SPRs are practical and useful in our area and pretty much everyone I know has some version or another. High dollar to the PA LVPOed PSA ‘truck and ATV’ rifle. We shoot a lot here and from what I’ve seen the most important factor is the ‘loose nut behind the butt’. It doesn’t take much more than skill based on experience to get any serviceable AR to 500 yards from field positions, with M193 spec ammo and some kind of optic. Most of my steel is IPSC sized AR500 and the rest is 8” round plate AR500 ‘head shots’. With just a little coaching and a good zero, shooters are hitting regularly with really pedestrian gear. We almost never use match ammo for the same reasons Henry stated, at the end of the day you either can or can’t. You guys are really geeking with this one and I like it. 😎

[@Cowboy.underwater]

I built the “Dirt Squirrel” but with a 7.5 barrel. It’s been dead reliable, way more accurate than I thought it would be, and is now one of my favorite guns.

[@celmer6]

I built a Dirt Squirrel with 8½" barrel and 3 chamber comp with Blast Forward Device. I love it but it's abusively loud. It's the loudest gun I own. It's even louder than my Browning BPS 10GA 3½" MAGNUM.

[@skat5268]

Henry---Otter Creek Labs is licensed to produce the AEM 5 and they produce what they call an improved version under OCM 5. When I jumped on the SPR craze it was when I saw Chris Bartocci's video and then ultimately his black rifle book. These days I would go more his way with something like Centurion's socom 14.5", LMT's improved bolt, etc. for more of a tougher proven setup. The real mk262 is dam pricey and hard to get these days.

[@roncterry]

Trajectory Arms in Provo, Ut is who has taken over manufacturing of the AEM5 from Ron Allen. Alex and his crew are doing a tremendous job of streamlining the manufacturing process and are starting to crank out cans at a higher rate. The Otter Creek Labs OCM5 is visually almost identical to the OPS12/AEM5, 100% mount compatible, a few oz lighter, equally as quiet but a completely different baffle stack (from what I understand).

[@mrrp70]

I really enjoy these discussions you guys do being able hear the thoughts of highly skilled shooters is always enlightening

[@therifflair724]

The rifle Henry described @36:00 is almost exactly what one of mine are 😂. And she’s super accurate and reliable to boot !

[@williamflowers9435]

The Leupold 2.5-8x36 was most common on the MK 12 mod 1

[@gtcam723]

It’s interesting. Like the 2nd AR I built like a decade ago was built on this concept but with weight as a concern. It ended up getting a 16” JP barrel and turned out to be an absolute tack driver

[@meanman6992]

Here’s the build my friend! Magpul CTR stock, BKF M16 trigger pocket cut lower receiver, ($50) Anderson Manufacturing flat top upper, (get the brownells lapping kit and lap the barrel extension mating surface on the upper) Midwest industries handguard of choice, Faxon gas block, CMMG lower parts kit, Magpul K2+ pistol grip, LaRue MBT trigger, barrel of choice muzzle device of choice though I love the EFAB but it isn’t cheap. $160, 7.5/10 as good as the best full on brakes but has almost as good flash mitigation as an A2 flash hider. Only hybrid I have seen that really delivers…. Annnnd a Grip Pod for all us 1:35:28 GWOT guys! 😂😅 oh and a Primary Arms 3x ACSS prism

[@RangerColinLZ]

I definitely think a lot of the move to the SPR or longer barrel AR platform has been due to the shift in the Guntubers doing more long range shooting, and getting away from CQB oriented topics. It is also a shift if the paradigm around 5.56 as a round as a whole, where people are finally realizing the viability of 75/77gr pills, and more into maximizing the performance of said round, instead of moving towards 224Valk, or 6Arc. Personally, I don't see a need to have an SPR, because in any world where I KNOW I'm going to engage something beyond 300m, I would rather have a larger caliber rifle to begin with. I don't think I'll be deviating from my MK18 anytime soon as far as the AR platform goes.

[@mcdpews7928]

My special poverty rifle. 16” stainless Aero/ ballistic advantage rifle. Demo eotech vudu 1-10 in a larue SPR-S mount I purchased in 2013. Turbo K suppressor with $200 discount from the purchase of my oculus suppressor. Larue MBT trigger. Moved to Phoenix and wanted something to try out longer range shooting.

[@BlueDevilBrew]

Can the URGI with LVPO do everything the Mk12 could? Does it completely fill the hole left from a capability standpoint? That would be a great head to head review.

[@zachradebaugh5733]

Glad to see ammo share and std's are still common in the infantry. ❤

[@StrangerOman]

Huge hype for the Special Poverty Rifle project. ;) It's a must.

[@Flyingcircustailwheel]

I have a shorty and soon a .308 DMR. I think this combination is superior, 5.56 just doesn't have good enough performance at distance.

[@mikeborrelli193]

East of the Mississippi its tough to find any public ranges past 200 yards. Shorties are waining because of the new ATF rulings and being in a legal no mans land..

[@firdauskhalid4466]

6.5 creedmoor had been adopted for military m110, SCAR SSR and mid range gas gun (MRGG).

[@luismari5090]

Great input. I had the A2 at in Iraq. All have a problem that hasn’t been addressed. While using the vest you can’t shoot well,it glances away as you shoulder it. Most shooters can barely pass as a sharpshooter as you know. This might be useful as a squad support while keeping the rest with the other system(ar) Might be better to use the money to improve soldier marksmanship than to replace another M14 wannabe.

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

The Canadians got it right (weird thing to say) as their C7A2 is a full size 20" gun _but_ has a 4 position collapsible stock.

[@Front-Toward-Enemy]

Or purchase a better vest.

[@LRRPFco52]

AR-15 came from a requirement set by Infantry Board, not civilians. ArmaLite, Winchester, and Remington responded to that SCHV RIfle concept with their submissions, and the AR-15 was the better of them. Lightweight Sniper Carbine was literally developed in JSOC-A. KAC responded to their needs with free-float tubes, 2-stage triggers, accessory mounts, rails, and a suppressor as time went on. They were already using the Ops Inc 2-piece collar reflex suppressor and IR Laser Aiming Modules taken from rotary-wing mounted belt-feds (AIM-1). JSOC was attaching Microdot 1.25-4x LPVOs on carry handle rails or risers on shaved uppers with Weaver rails installed to make early flat-tops, then Larry went to various scope makers asking for a specific set of requirements, and thus was born the S&B Short Dot. I remember him showing the first one to me in circa 2003-2004. ARMS responded to specific military requests for rails, QD scope rings, QD VFGs, SWAN sleeves, BUIS, etc. KAC then made the MRE for The Unit and the QD NT4, along with optics mounts. LaRue made QD single-piece base AR-15 mounts as well to address the failings of the ARMS lock-up interface. It was all primarily driven by JSOC-A, then trickled down to Dam Neck and Range 37 SOTIC/SFARTAETC, then the SF Groups and SEAL Teams. Ranger Regiment was closely tied-in with JSOC so they got more immediate trickle-down weapons configurations and didn’t talk about it. Literally none of it was driven by the civilian gaming side, though several JSOC and SOCOM guys competed in 3-Gun, USPSA, IDPA, etc. Marksmanship training was always influenced by some of the action competitor shooters though, especially Jerry Barnhart and Rob Leatham. The civilian competitive shooting circuit was influenced by JSOC gear selection when it comes to the AR-15, not really vice-versa. Aimpoints, LPVOs, free-float, match ammo, triggers, slings, mounts, lights, suppressors, all came from JSOC.

[@jimmyadamo3999]

AB suppressors and Amtac suppressors are really the only companies working on reflex cans. Neither are as quiet as an AEM-5. At least there are companies using the technology. I love my Amtac can, so much volume, so little gas face.

[@11pack09]

I bought an 18” as my first “only ar” then a 10.3” because I bought a suppressor, and I had already begun to feel like a 14.5 is the Goldielocks to long and short-this seems to affirm that feeling 🤣

[@tsafa]

For your Poverty Build I would just stay with the Palmetto Barrel the way they ship the complete upper. It gets 1 inch at 100 yds with 77 grain match ammunition. Just upgrade the trigger to a Palmetto two stage on the lower.

[@dgax65]

I built a few Special Poverty Rifles. I've since moved on to Special Lower Middle Class Rifles.

[@finn0h]

What is your take on M16A5 and M4A2 concept rifles? That would make a neat video!

[@markymark9359]

I would love to see a poverty SPR video!

[@ES44AC-2]

Texas Plinking did something similar with a PSA build to 700 yards. I too would love to see 9 hole reviews do their own Special Poverty Rifle.

[@markymark9359]

I saw that video. It was good!

[@scott2228]

I have I have an OPS 12 collared barrel in my SPR. Amazing barrel. It’s the most accurate barrel I have. Next year I’m getting the AEM5 suppressor.

[@polkbritton]

I like the SPR as a concept/gee whiz gun nerd project. What I don't like so much is that most of the GunTube content around the SPR (not including this video of course) focuses on putting the civilian use case for the system into the framework of a post apocalyptic LARP fantasy scenario. I mean I like a fun LARP scenario for the lulz as much as the next person, but many of the videos I've been seeing are doing so in complete seriousness. It's a little strange since I would presume using an SPR for self defense irl probably wouldn't go well in legal terms if you're engaging someone at medium ranges much less long ranges. Unless you happen to be engaging the ghost of Carlos Hathcock or Charles Whitman, I'm not sure a court would look favorably on you or your SPR. Just my 2¢ on what I've been observing.

[@roncterry]

Yes, yes, yes! on doing the (S)ecial(P)overty(R)ifle. Seriously though, I think that would be important to show what can be achieved with a more modest, realistic budget that a wider segment of the population can afford. Ammo: 75gr or 77gr AAC (from PSA) Barrel: something from Ballistic Advantage, Rosco or Faxon Receivers: Anderson, PSA or Aero Precision Handguard: Areo or Midwest Industries Furniture: Magpul or B5 Optics: Holosun, Primary Arms, Athlon or Vortex Suppressor: YHM Turbo T3, Turbo K or Resonator K

[@rjlane3475]

if the target is moving, 600 yards out, and there’s wind - give me the 18” barrel

[@adamsmyth584]

Check the CMP. Civilian Marksmanship program. Shooting AR s at 600 yards for decades with open sights and now with 4 power scopes.

[@9HoleReviews]

I started with CMP. Their targets are also massive and well-contrasted.

[@0214Bub]

What about something on the 10mm trend. Today S&W just announced a new 10mm. It was just a few years back 10mm was sinking into the marginally relevant category and then demand exploded. From all indications the round has found new life after a sudden increase in demand for a semiautomatic bear defense handgun. Personally I was unaware of any surge in bear attacks, but I’m always the last to know these things.

[@swegmastur614]

It's big if you live in somewhere like Alaska. 10mm is the minimum if you're going out here

[@Abbynorml1979]

I have a Mock 12 Special Poverty Rifle, BCA barrel, no name free float, PSA 2 stage trigger, no name fixed butt stock, and a cheap 4x12 on a DPSM lower and upper :D

[@fridrekr7510]

It would be interesting to see you try a 5.45 AK with an LPVO. The barrel might be a bit short, but otherwise it could be a Russian SPR alternative. AK-74Ms with LPVOs, often paired with long keymod handguards, are commonly seen in FSB competition and recce photoshoots, and occasionally with SSO. Although in the field, their AKs are still mostly used with red dot and holo sights, sometimes with magnifiers, or low power fixed scopes.

[@randomidiot8142]

Pencil barrels on the AK plus wierd gas system harmonics are going to make that quite a chore.

[@fridrekr7510]

@@randomidiot8142 Do you mean that an AK-74 is too inaccurate to fulfill the SPR role? It would still be interesting to see it's highest potential, since they've only tested them with red dots and magnifiers.

[@randomidiot8142]

@@fridrekr7510 I think it would be an uphill battle to say the least. Brandon Herrera did a .224 Valkyrie AK and just scope mounting was difficult. What ammo would you use? .222"/5.45 barrels are available, but what about suitable bullets? Ballistically, it's not an equal to 5.56. It's 'doable', but I think the disadvantages will start compounding.

[@jtdavis912]

5:44

[@penismcbutt]

Thanks bro

[@LordPerique]

you just almost perfectly described my first AR at at 36:44 just replace FN barrel with Faxon

[@EndTheNFApls]

I see ergo grip thumbnail, I hit like.

[@tobyndavis4710]

“Where’s the NGAL?” Every r/URGI subreddit lol

[@kylesmith7733]

For the poverty rifle it should be either a PSA with an FN barrel (maybe the new Sabre series?) or an Aero with a stainless steel 16in barrel. Primary arms slx 1-6 sfp optic in their PA cheapo mount on either an Anderson lower or psa lower.

[@ryan-jb9fh]

stock hk sl8 is a pretty good spr if the barrel was threaded, and that's something they made back in like, the '90s

[@LDR1100RS]

I like the idea of using a PSA CHF barrel. Free floated. La Rue trigger. PA with BDC 1-6. Spending too much on the barrel would not make it a Special Poverty Rifle.

[@johnsanko4136]

"Special Poverty Rifle" is absolutely hilarious, but honestly not a bad idea.

[@dariandunn2811]

Great talk, but if you are going to mention a name, type it out in a comment. 1. You need to do some terminal ballistics study on longer range, shorter barrel. I would suggest, running the short barrel, and reloads to shoot it at shorter range gel. (Yes, I know a lesser velocity will not run the gun.) 2. Most people don't have a 500 yard range. You need to make and test a precision 22LR AR. Mine was good to 300 yards. Is it like having a 1000 yard range? No, but you must use drops to hit everything between 25yards and 300 yards. (Same could be done with a 300blk, but the cost.) 3. You should do one rifle with several different optics 9 hole review. Take your SPR and then run a 1-8 primary arms and Chronos that runs to 27x. and .... (Then do the same for some CQC course of fire. Move and shoot.) 4. I have an AUG. If I could get an AR trigger... 5. We have to look at people running full kit. Some are prepping for something thinks will happen. If they are right we should encourage EVERYONE to do as much as they can. Civilians, X-mil, In military ... If they are wrong, does it really matter if some 14 old kid or 30 year old kid is playing soldier? I am thinking about the old CMP. It was a good thing. Worst case is that kid gains respect for what the military guys did or do. (And isn't 90% of the military is support, non-shooters so.... 99% of the air force don't shoot. And then there is the Navy who don't shoot.) Yes, you should build a poverty rifle. You may want one of those 1 inch thick barrels. I think what you gain with $$$ is the ability to have a lighter barrel and it is still accurate.

[@mangofett927]

As a filthy poor, the idea of a Special Poverty Rifle excites me. Maybe pick up an M&P 15 with 5R rifling and swap out the muzzle device to a QD unit, replace the handguard with a free float M-Lok one (blemished ATLAS 15" from Aero?), replace the front sight gas block and then stick a primary arms LVPO on it and see how far it goes.

[@DEATER155]

I just want a MOD-H for the aesthetic and the fun of shooting with history

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

I'm doing a 16" "SPR" as a Mod-H inspired build. It's in no way a clone of course, but the Mod-H shows that a 16" is still capable (some people really think 2" makes or breaks a rifle) and of course being the shortest non-NFA barrel length has an advantage.

[@noahcypher2271]

I want to see a head to head comparison of the gamer rifle and henry's special poverty rifle. 🙂 How about you guys both run the course with both, winner determined by the total time.

[@davidb9323]

It is interesting that you mention a lot of influencers changing from Mk18 style rifles to SPR/GPR builds. While this is true there are others like Mike Glover today posting “How to set up a CQB rifle”.

[@509Gman]

Mr “use ball ammo for CCW”?

[@davidb9323]

@@509Gman Who does that ? 🤣

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

@@509Gman As opposed to? Spending $700 every range trip to shoot hyper ammo through my pistol?

[@amn1308]

Special Poverty Rifle hits awful close to home, luckily I didn't use any of those parts you listed, just need good BCG, good barrel, good optic, and the rest can be cheap or homemade. Bear Creek Arsenal great memorial day sale, you could try their 18" or 20" stainless barrels or just get their cheapest upper and swap parts, then spend 4 hours making your own lower instead of spending more on one you may not like. And Athlon makes a nice 4-16x44 you can pick up for about $250.

[@theodoreheintz7891]

ATTN HENRY/JOSH. You referred to a 16in AUG w 1/7 twist bbl. They do exist that are extremely rare. There was a special short run by commission for PJ. I have one. Do you want to borrow it?

[@ltljohn1725]

Funny you mention the "poverty S.P.R." A couple years ago I got a brownells lower on discount with no specific idea in mind other than a coyote/ truck gun. I put on an A2 stock (planned) an 18 in Bear creek complete upper (It was on sale) and a Leopold Vx-2 with duplex reticle I bought on sale 15 years ago. I was NOT trying to build an SPR, but after I was done realized I had built what I call my "white trash" SPR. I did put in a match trigger as well. I am a trigger snob. I love gear but I think the military and many people forget the best accessory is ammo and trigger time. If I lived in TX I would like to see you put my rifle through your course with good ammo just to see what it could do. Keep up the good work

[@jayblemsin4226]

Love it ! Great show

[@thatguyoverthere2288]

Poverty SPR. 16 inch psa, 1-6 acss slx. For flavor try psa 77gr ammo

[@forestrussell-yount1355]

i like the concept lol the special poverty rifle