9mm +P+ Ballistic Test & Discussion

[@DanTheWolfman]

Hi Sam, would you Plz allow me to post my 2nd "Modern Meat Target" kzbin.info/www/bejne/kGqsl4l5mbmcpsU +P vs +P+ Is Plus P Velocity More Effective?

[@noahmercy-mann4323]

I chronographed a lot of different 9mm back in the late '90s, and the +P+ on the market then was no faster than the +P ammo. I came to the conclusion that the +P+ companies were using powders that needed very high pressures to match the velocities of the other manufacturers' +P, or it was a marketing gimmick. Now some of the ammo makers are loading stuff that actually IS quite a bit faster than +P, but I genuinely wish they would provide pressure numbers.

[@leonbetsey8879]

That would solve a bug question of which models we can use it in ???

[@Gsmooth10455]

I've seen a few tests before with the 127 grain +P+ T-Series and this is the first time that I've seen such good expansion on them. I bought ten boxes of these about 25 years ago and have always been hesitant to carry them because of the less than flattering reviews and lack of expansion that I've seen in prior videos. Thanks for the tests.

[@bobjohnson1633]

That's hogwash. Most 9mm doesn't meet FBI minimum performance. You just shoot your gun 10 times at the same target and they WILL go down.

[@edwardbohlman3209]

I thought your comment about heavier (147gr) +P+ bullets not really giving you significant advantages over +P, but the lighter (115gr) +P+ definitely do perform better. And yet, looking just at gel penetration numbers, which a lot of people focus on, the heavier bullets performed better. I agree with you that gel damage and energy dump are very important.

[@bobjohnson1633]

Heavier bullets have high momentum and higher sectional density, both of which increase penetration. Heavy 38 is superior to all 9mm.

[@dsrrecordsent]

@@bobjohnson1633what weight .38 is superior to all 9mm rounds? I know some 9mm rounds that perform well!

[@fatjeezussouthtexasoutdoor5244]

​@@dsrrecordsent158grain lswchp from buffalo bore are over 1200fps out of 4" barrel and over 1300fps from a 6"barrel.... those are getting close to standard 357mag numbers

[@ericbergfield6451]

Thanks for the +P & +P+ breakdown, very few channels bother with either ammo, so it's nice to see the difference for a change.

[@nathanlambshead4778]

Paul Harrell has an extensive video on this, worth watching also.

[@Huggybear101]

The entire video was very informative. Thank you!

[@GunSam]

Seeing as several people are 'going there' this this "velocity is slower in the winter" talk (which shouldn't even be a thought when it was like 50 degrees this day), I will share something I wrote up from a study I did 3 years ago, and here are the results I got, posting an old community post: I am often inundated with comments on my videos in cold weather that the cold weather slows the velocity of a given ammunition. Well, I went back and gathered all of the chronograph information I have recorded myself where I use the same gun and same ammo at two different times of the year, and here are the results: I just compiled all of the data I have where I have two totally different air temperatures with the same ammo and same gun, and what I have is 10 varieties to go on. Seven of 10 times, the ammunition in question was FASTER in colder air temp than warmer. I searched the weather history of my filming area of each day in question (I often post videos a day or two after filming so it's not exact, but close enough). 1. First ammo is the Critical Duty 135 gr+P 9mm both tests in the 4" barrel, in 34 degree air temp I got a 5 shot average of 1,058 FPS, but in 70 degree air temp I got a 5 shot average of 1,056 FPS. Cold air wins. 2.The Hydrashok 9mm 124 gr low recoil in the 4" barrel gave me at 36 degree air temp, 1,033 FPS and in 69 degree air temp 1,000 FPS. Cold air wins. 3.The American Gunner 9mm 124 gr+P in 4" barrel gave me in 45 degree air temp 1,152 FPS and in 63 degree air temp, 1,135 FPS. Cold air wins. 4. Critical Defense 9mm in 81 degree air temp gave me 1,158 FPS and in 31 degree air temp gave me 1,133 FPS. Warm air wins, but by 25 FPS and the largest air temp gap here of 50 degrees. 5. The Remington HTP .380 in the LCP gave me in 76 degree air temp 881 FPS and in 74 degree air temp 848 FPS (this one was the odd bunch as they were tested in April and September so far apart in time, but not by temp. Warm air wins, but there was only a 2 degree difference in this instance. 6. The Super-Vel .38+P 90 gr in the 1.875" J-frame gave me in 32 degree air temp 1,307 FPS and in 46 degree air temp gave me 1,285 FPS. Cold air wins. 7. The Gold Dot 9mm 124 gr+P in the 4" pistol gave me in 50 degree air temp 1,215 FPS, in 80 degree air temp 1,202 FPS and in 34 degree air temp 1,185 FPS. This one is sort of tied, however 50 degrees VS 80 degrees and still beating the velocity by 13 FPS sort of tells a LOT about this whole study. 8. The .38 Special +P Critical Defense in the J-frame gave me in 78 degree air temp 977 FPS and in 85 degree air temp 907 FPS. Cooler weather wins. 9.The Federal HST .38 Special+P in the J-frame gave me in 86 degree air temp 813 FPS and in 68 degree air temp 775 FPS. Warmer air wins. 10.The Gold Dot 9mm 115 gr standard pressure in the 4" barrel gave me in 50 degree air temp 1,190 FPS and in 34 degree air temp I got 1,206 FPS. Cold air wins. That's all for now, and what I am seeing is consistency, but the total opposite of what I have been told.

[@danoneill2846]

you may only find an issue with H110 / win 296 in 357 & 44 . Some say a sample size of 10 is too small , The Point , in most ammo ... same as one round to the next , not enough difference to make a difference .

[@skiball83]

Damn it. I just posted a comment regarding this and deleted it because i saw your post seconds after. Hahahaha. Keep up the good work buddy.

[@bobjohnson1633]

Clearly this is racism or something. 50fps determines whether all bullets will be effective at all. I mean, if your 500 s&w loses 50fps from that sub barrel, it's just too weak to stop a mugger. 9mm was ALWAYS suboptimal crap. It's cheaper than .380 and you can have 50000 +1 rounds with 15 extra mags in your edc gym carry in case al quaida attacks with machine guns and bomb vests and you have to single handedly defeat them all with your Glock.

[@danielbernard13]

Why don´t you do a Clintonite suicide video. See if you can make a sawed off shotgun fly 30 feet.

[@skiball83]

@@danoneill2846 someone watches paul harrell.

[@jacobackley502]

Something not mentioned but is worth noting, higher pressure does not necessarily mean higher velocity. The classic example is shotgun trap loads. They are much weaker, lower recoil than heavy game, buckshot, or slug loads but often run at the same pressures using a small charge of fast burning powder. This makes them cheaper to manufacture, cleaner burning, and lower noise. A change in propellant will result in more effect than a change in pressure using the same propellant. For instance, the max book load for VV 3n38 and 147gr 9mm is over 1100 fps at standard pressure. A +p load of Ramshot competition with 147gr 9mm would barely make 900 fps.

[@The_Hi_Life]

I carry the BBore 115+p+ in my arex, it’s a BEAST of a load! Very thorough results, thanks.

[@dsrrecordsent]

What’s an arex?

[@NomadicHacker.]

Interesting results 🤔 I think I would be Interesting to see a similar test with the same bullet like a 124 gold dot standard pressure vs 124+p vs 124 +p+ (underwood maks +p+ gold dot) Great video as always 👍

[@crankygunreviews]

Glad to see your voice is getting back to normal. I don’t think I’ve ever seen 9mm +P+ in a store. Unless I just didn’t pay attention to it… that Buffalo bore is a beast! I think I shot some 38 +P Buffalo bore years ago, and it was really hot

[@johnconway8492]

Excellent video and a wonderful on point explanation of the +P+ ammo 👍👍👍

[@GeographyCzar]

Love the discussion on +P+ and SAAMI limits. 👍👍👍

[@chrismagnum06]

As a 357 magnum guy your peaking my interest in BB 115.

[@ThatMDubyaGuy]

This reminds me of why I liked the Cor-Bon 115 +P that used the Sierra JHP. Penetration was under the FBI standards, but everything I shot with it, went down hard.

[@Messier87_M87]

Great shooting!! You handle that .357 very well. I really enjoy these series you did with the .357. New subscriber!

[@falcon3719]

Once again, really useful information. 👌

[@guardianminifarm8005]

Great test. Data is good to have. When you hit at distance some of the hits were nearly touching. 75 is a stretch for most folk. I have even made 75 my limit for 6"+ 44 magnum revolvers when hunting whitetail. Even though I have hit deer at farther than 75 the shots are not well placed and require extended tracking and follow up shots to harvest. I actually really prefer 50-60 yard max. That being said if the +p or the +p+ give us any significant increase in velocity in a 9mm then we should have better bullet performance at distance if it were needed. I would not want to have to rely on a 9mm in a gun fight at 75 yards. Good observable data in gel. Thanks

[@bobjohnson1633]

Sounds like you're making bad shots if you need multiple hits inside 100 yards.

[@guardianminifarm8005]

@@bobjohnson1633 From 75 and out they have been. Gut shots mainly. Open sights 6" 629 & 9" Super Redhawk. Others may be better than I for sure and may be using optics. My limits especially as I age are now under 75 yards for me and my set up. Just making a hit on the animal isn't acceptable. If at all possible I want a clean hit & harvest. Even as "powerful" as the 44 may be it isn't a rifle or shotgun slug. We have actually dressed buck and recovered our expanded bullet in the hide on the opposite side.

[@faryldaryl3975]

..and a great example of how different loads may shoot to different POIs. Dead center, high, high & left, low. Know your gun & chosen carry round.

[@MPGunther1]

Appreciate your valued opinion

[@BuckeyeBallistics]

That 115gr +p+ is a pretty large wound cavity for clear gel!

[@markstephens5120]

It seems to me that if you want your weapon to perform with those specs you should have one that does it without all the +p and +p+ crap. Standard Federal American Eagle fmj .357sig is running 1350fps and 604 ft lds muzzle energy. Get the real thing, 357sig for the win.

[@BuckeyeBallistics]

Exactly - capacity

[@akmguyman762X39]

​@@markstephens5120or you can keep your 9mm and get a 357 Magnum, the real 357 🤷

[@BuckeyeBallistics]

@@TERMINAL-BALLISTICS Lol show me a .357 Sig the size of a P365 that holds even 10...

[@BuckeyeBallistics]

@@TERMINAL-BALLISTICS So I was right (already knew I was), so thanks for clarifying. I could care less what size of pistol YOU choose to carry. Point is, the same pistol in 9mm has a higher capacity than .357sig, and not everybody likes to carry a full size pistol. Also saying you only need X amount of rounds is ignorant- I've seen numerous police videos where they've emptied *seventeen* round mags and had to reload. Or what if you have to engauge with an active shooter and you *don't* get the drop on them and end up in a shootout with them? And if you own an AR rifle, I sure hope you keep less than 20rd mags in it less you be a hypocrite. Or maybe you're just a FUDD

[@ladonnaghareeb4609]

This is Bob, LD'S other half. Great test thank you. I believe that Winchester seems to be optimistic on their handgun velocities. I have seen tests with Silver tip in particular especially in 45acp, where the rounds hit substantially lower velocities than they are rated at. Not a dig at Winchester at all, because I see this in other brands too.

[@scotts7137]

Gave a like just for that first 75yd shot! Nice work, makes me want an M&P now...

[@nathanlambshead4778]

Thanks for the expensive test. Appreciated. 'Momentum' in the ballistic world, is measured as sectional density. How I explain it to non-gunners, is sort of like this: velocity is power, while momentum is torque. And torque is what does the real work. Tissue damage is important, but penetration is what really counts.

[@CaptainNoDoze]

Educational and Entertaining ... Thanks

[@alfontana6242]

Thanks for your video. I would like to have seen Underwood 9mm 115 & 124 Gr P+P ammo as well. As far as 9mm P+P ammo goes Underwood is less money and a lot easier to obtain.

[@brianmoore1164]

Hmmmmm, the new manufacture Defender is pretty obviously a bonded "Black Talon" minus the scary name and scary coating. Glad to see it back. I would love to see some side by side testing against the Federal HST.

[@Theoneguythatdoes]

From the independent testing I’ve seen, the new talon’s (ranger T) clog up in heavy denim. The HST’s rarely do, in any weight, from any barrel length, with any pressure designation (standard, +p, +p+). Near perfect performance every time. Not to sound like a shill, but they’re touted as the best for a reason. They even outperform the gold dots and the famous 9BPLE’s. The only test I’ve seen them beaten in was “shootingthebull410” 9mm test where the defender PDX1 147gr beat it in penetration vs the HST 124gr. But!!!!! The HST still hit the requirement, the tester just prefers more penetration which the 147gr has the advantage of. 124 vs 124, it was no contest, HST by a landslide.

[@brianmoore1164]

@Chris S I am a fan of the HST as well. My only problem with it is that there are calibers they don't make it for. At least I haven't seen them. This new Winchester round may fill in those blanks. With luck, it might push Federal to expand the lineup.

[@Paladin1873]

I use +P+ all the time. It's called 38 Super. 🙂

[@Paladin1873]

@@Valorius Only if you buy the weak loads that were intended for early Colt 38 Automatics. Today you can buy or make loads that will beat any 9mm. This is because there is more case capacity in the 38 Super. My 50 year old Lyman reloading manual contains 38 Super load data for a 130 grain bullet traveling at 1300 fps without resorting to excess pressure. This is 9mm +P+ territory. If I want to go even hotter, I can do so by reloading or buying boutique ammo such as Buffalo Bore.

[@kevinrichardson8859]

Then what does that make 357sig??? +p++++

[@Paladin1873]

@@Valorius Which "38" are you referring to?

[@Paladin1873]

@@kevinrichardson8859 It's a bottleneck 9mm originally designed to match the popular 125 grain 357 Magnum load. It's primary drawback is its reduced magazine capacity when compared with a comparable 38 Super magazine.

[@Paladin1873]

@@Valorius I don't know where you are getting your data, but I rechecked the Buffalo Bore, Underwood, and Doubletap websites to make sure they have not updated any changes. Their highest posted 124 grain 9mm velocities were still 50 fps slower than their 124 grain 38 Super loads. The 38 Super achieves this performance without having to resort to +P+ pressure levels. No matter how hard one tries, it is impossible for the 9mm Para to match or exceed the potential of the 38 Super. It's basic physics. More powder can be stuffed into the 38 Super case than can fit in a 9mm Para case. Decades ago Jeff Cooper, the dean of combat handgunning, designed his 38 Super Cooper 1911. He stuck a 6 1/2" barrel in the pistol and made reinforced cases from cut-down 223 Remington brass because the original brass was blowing out at 1600fps when using 125 grain bullets. The stouter cases produced velocities of nearly 1750 fps with the same projectile.

[@rodneyspence7441]

Thanks for another informative video - with a ruger max 9 i think i’ll stick with +P for SD. I currently use Underwood 90 grain +P xtreme defender rated at 1475 fps/435 fpe. With momentum I always think of a ballistic pendulum - if u were to hang your gel block to form a pendulum the bullet momentum will determine how far up the block will swing after bullet impact since momentum is conserved in the collision (assuming the bullet comes to rest within the block). For example with the BB 115 grain +P+ assuming 1400 fps impact velocity, 15 lb gel block (I'm guessing) and 2 foot long pendulum cords the max swing angle would be about 11 deg - Not as much as you might think. Like you said most of the bullet energy goes towards internal damage to the block.. Thanks!

[@Master-AGN]

9mm +P+ isn’t that for 9mm guys who are the closet 357sig guys?

[@brianmoore1164]

38 Super for me. Right through the ammo shortage I had affordable and available supply.

[@jimchambers7548]

I like 9mm but not as much as my 357sig

[@paulscountry456]

Perfect..lol

[@kevinrichardson8859]

​@@bobjones-bt9bh great reasoning...9mm +p+ is no slouch...9mm 127 grain +p+ Winchester...any of the underwood or Buffalo Bore...any corbon 115 or 125 grain will all get you around 450 ft/lbs-500 ft/lbs

[@skiball83]

Eh. Its for those that dont want to do a barrel swap and still practice on the cheap. My take on it. Then i run 124 hst standard pressure for defence, and run 124 s&b ball at the range.

[@spaceranger3728]

Haven't seen the old-school Federal 9BPLE +P+ 115 gr in a while. Don't know if they still make it but it has a good reputation.

[@sombra6153]

A local sheriff’s department in my area has issued that Winchester 127 for years. I think they still do and I’ve never heard any complaints from the deputies I’ve known. I had to carry and qualify with +p+ back in the early-mid 90s, 115 grain Winchester (original 9mm +p+) and legendary 9BPLE and 124 grain Hydra Shok. No performance issues were noted in the field. I’ve seen one micro 9 violently come apart on a range that could have been linked to +p+, but it wasn’t a Glock or Sig. Full size and mid frames from Glock, Sig,or S&W aren’t going to have any problems. Glock cautions not to use it in their Slim Frames, but primarily due to slide velocity. I recall seeing a Taran Butler vid on KZbin several years back going thru a bunch of 9BPLE in a P365. Having recently purchased a 365, I find the 124 grain Gold Dot or 135 grain Critical Duty, both in +p to be sufficiently stimulating to my arthritis. Anyway, it was ironic that back when +p+ was a more common LE option and Marshall-Sanow studies gave it an an 89% one shot stop rating due to its real world performance, FBI testing concluded it wasn’t a viable LE round because it didn’t meet their penetration standards.

[@colt10mmsecurity68]

Personally, I’ve always felt that +P+ is just a hammer to piece of glass. It’s a load that has no better defense benefit, but it certainly and needlessly hammers the crap out of one’s handgun. Talk about excessive wear & tear. No thanks. I’ve never understood those that buy a caliber , only to stuff it with the most amount of gunpowder possible (i.e. +P+). Sometimes good enough, just is. Go buy a bigger caliber if standard pressured rounds aren’t good enough.

[@mikebott6940]

Would you ever consider testing Buffalo Bore's +p+ 95 grain Barnes round ???

[@bobcatforever3485]

GSRA. Good video. Nice ammo comparison. Thanks for sharing. Take care.

[@thegundungeon]

Great video and great points

[@cobbetlprogrammer1344]

Man you are One Good Shooter! Thanks for the info.

[@Bigfairy3]

Very informative thank you

[@louieHuelsman]

Good information n way to explain it GunSam!!! Ty!!

[@j___mmdcclxxvi2125]

Nice presentation, fine shooting at distance.

[@corbinpowell128]

I got 1,362 FPS max velocity out of Sig P320 4.7 inch BBL with Winchester Active Duty 9mm M1152 115 grain ammo that is FMJ target loads yesterday over my Garmin chronograph. Incredible numbers. Most definitely the equivalent of +p+ in my opinion. Btw the shorter 3.1 inch BBL with an Sig P365 I found only a 100 FPS difference with it.

[@chrisgabbert658]

👍😊 you do shoot that pistol very well.

[@thatoneguy454c]

With the shell shock NAs3 casings you can load 9mm SUPER hot. The shell cases themselves can handle like 48k psi without any bulging. I loaded 124 grain bullets to 1400 fps out of a glock 17. I think as material science increases we will start to see insane power out of handguns and unbelievable power out of rifles.

[@dsrrecordsent]

124 at 1,400fps out of a Glock 17? Very impressive my man! Sheesh what bullet and what powder?

[@SuspiciousGanymede]

The velocity spread on that Winchester defender ammo makes me think they're loaded with a temperature sensitive powder. I would still prefer going to a larger caliber as opposed to using +p ammo but I don't think it will wear a modern firearm any more than standard pressure stuff. +p+ sounds like a bad idea to me in a standard brass case with a firearm that has less chamber suppprt such as a glock. Going outside of SAAMI specs with stuff like that buffalo bore 115gr +p+ will usually void most handgun warranties as well. If a +p+ powder charge was loaded in S3 casings it would be a non-issue, that's why the military expressed interest in 6.8x51/.277 Fury. I see the potential to push all existing calibers further with that improvement in case design. I like the new intro! You were missing to the left with that T-series and high with the 147gr Buffalo bore. I remind people to test their carry ammo because there may be point of impact shifts just like that.

[@lorencioalcaraz2623]

4 inch barrel would put that last +p+ in the ballistics gel around the 12 inch mark. I like it for my pmm comped p365x and M&P compact comp.

[@oldcop18]

My former department issues Federal Premium LE 147 grain HST for duty in their G19 pistols. Have you tested that and if so what’s your opinion?

[@l.a.3887]

Appreciate the information good job thanks 👍

[@charlesphillips5906]

No 9PBLE?

[@leighniece4482]

Great job Thanks!

[@carloparisi9945]

Hi Sam, you can fit a cigar in the cavity of that 115 grains round, damn scary. It matches the description of the results Jim Cirillo got from his 110 grains supervel handloads

[@thomaseynon6205]

Any testing of +p+ 115 grain underwood from the Shield plus?

[@cowboywoodard2569]

Great video my friend

[@mikethefarrier]

How was the recoil on the 115 and 147 grain BuffBore?

[@rafars2246]

So if you want more straight penetration you'll go with the heavier grain? I like the damage of the lower grain bullet, but not very useful if you think humans move and get cover.

[@slash19961]

Funny how far people will push a cartridge to get different or better results from what they perceive as bad or less then . I honestly feel like +P+ loads aren't really worth the extra wear n tear on the gun . If I wanted better penetration if personally just go up to a .357 sig and get the extra foot-pounds . Also Sam I was curious if you think that the .357 or .44 magnum really benefit from a 6 inch barrel versus the 4 inch I can imagine a lot of .44 mag loads do since I feel like a lot of them are hunting loads

[@357Addict]

The .357 is going to pick up velocity with the longer barrels. In my testing with my Ruger 77/357 rifle, a 16 inch barrel can give .357 around 400 fps gain.

[@nico2292]

You need to shoot A LOT to have significant wear and tear with +p+, it's not ammo for the range, you just use it for SD or hunting.

[@slash19961]

​@@nico2292 I feel like even just acquiring it isn't very useful between shipping costs and just standard pricing makes it more expensive. Plus any SD round needs to be a part-time range round for practice

[@nico2292]

@@slash19961 The amount needed to practice won't cause wear and tear on your weapon, shot placement is always the key anyways.

[@slash19961]

​@@nico2292I just don't see a point when you gain nothing , Aslong as the round is reliable, hits to your sights , penetrates enough then expands you're good . Why pay extra to get a boutique round when it does nothing a hst or gold dot would do for less money .

[@MC-uj4co]

+P+ is needed for the old HI Shock 147 grain to make them do there job I can still get all I want of that HI Shock for 20.00 a box of 50 as well as the stranded 115

[@rexhanson2197]

temperature affects the burn rate of many powders as such on very cold days velocity is less than on a warm day

[@GunSam]

Never been the case. I have tested this over and over again with different ammo types. Cold air does not effect velocity at handgun distances.

[@randyduncan795]

I'd take the 147 or either Winchester over the 115. Could be very helpful against very heavy clothing or a bucket shot to a head that is mostly bone. No comparison to 357 is legit without specifying bbl length. I'll take my G19 loaded with 124+P GDs any day over a 357 snub. But a 4" 686 is entirely different. While I own and love J frames I prefer 38 in those. Seems like one of the purposes of +P ammo is to reach the velocity required for expansion when using shorter bbls. This comes at the expense of recoil, noise, and wear on the gun.

[@michaelrania1985]

We need you to bring back the bologna packs sometime! Lol Love your vids.

[@Gsmooth10455]

I personally like the fiber boards.

[@davidlee8551]

Did you have a date for your previous higher velocity numbers? Perhaps a warm summer day produces higher velocity.

[@markstephens5120]

If you want that kind of performance out of your weapon get one that does it without all the +p crap which is very subjective as the man says. For example Federal American Eagle 357sig 125gr fmj is 1350fps and 506 ft lbs energy at the muzzle. That's the baseline, it only goes up from there and it's designed for it. 357sig for the win.

[@richavic4520]

Do you think that an industry standard for the +P+ designation should be implemented?

[@dcidci1012]

Packed with information again Thank you. Question or my thoughts or for me any way I have found that the faster a bullet travels the more accurate I am ? Could that be the sooner the bullet leaves the barrel the less chance I have to flinch ? LOL. a little voice as I pull the trigger screaming get me outa here before he goes to shaking & I don't know which way I am going.

[@JOSEMORALES-un5jv]

Prof the .38 semi automatic vs. 9mm comparection

[@SG-hh9lu]

The most notorious 9mm is the Federal 115gr plus p plus 9BPLE

[@Fudmottin]

The lack of case capacity isn't a huge deal, IMO. For what the 9x19mm cartridge is designed to do, it could well be ideal. As an analogy, think of an automobile engine. High compression engines are more efficient than low compression engines. You get a great expansion ratio out of the gas, giving more energy for the amount of gas. To do the same with the larger 38Spl case, you just need a bunch more powder. The little bit of extra length on the 357 Magnum case doesn't help matters. Of course if you throw a 158gr slug out at 1200fps, that's going to make a 124gr slug doing about 1100fps not seem so hot. When shooting the steel at 75 yards, you could edit it with a bit of slip so that there is more delay between the boom of the gun and the impact ping on the steel. Make it seem further away! ;-)

[@exothermal.sprocket]

One wonders if the 9mm +p+ is worth the investment, when you can run .357sig and get ridiculous power from the same bullets without trying.

[@Gsmooth10455]

Very good point.

[@exothermal.sprocket]

Seriously, seems every problem with 9mm seems to get solved with another 300 fps. So why is the 9mm a thing? It seems to function in the mediocre status and the first sign of bone or material, it stops functioning well.

[@squatchwatch5237]

​@@exothermal.sprocketif only the majority would see it this way

[@leonardmiletello5245]

Does the colder temperatures where he is performing these tests affect the chronograph readings?

[@GunSam]

No. I have done studies on this. About 60% of the time the same box of ammo shot faster averages in the winter, which is within normal round to round variations. The only time temperature changes things (I did this experimentation) is when I froze some ammunition and compared it to body temp ammo. There was about a 20 FPS average drop with the frozen ammo, which isn't much difference.

[@calebsrccrawlers]

Hey Gun sam, I got a good question for you, what do you use to polish the inside chambers of your revolvers? Will it work with a blued revolver?

[@basedyt6485]

Just wanted to add a few things. As for ammo scarcity, I'm still shooting up 9mm I accumulated in '16-'19. I don't handload. I will reiterate, one should use what you can master & what gives you confidence. 10mm? Knock yourself out. 40S&W? A well proven cartridge during it's 25ish years of heavy "institutional" use. 45ACP? "Two world wars!" I'm a fan myself. That said, there's one handgun cartridge that has grown in use continuously since it's inception, that's 9mm Parabellum. I believe only the PRC doesn't use it militarily. Even the Russian Federation uses it. Much like the 5.56x45, reviled at home while the Soviets developed an analog & the Chinese adopted a 5.8mm with similar performance ( maybe more like a 6x45mm, which is what the US likely should have fielded in the '60s). The 9mm just checks all the right boxes, nothing more. It's amusing & sometimes mildly annoying to still see people trolling or really getting defensive about the 9mm's global dominance. Also, the common American expression of kinetic energy, the "Foot Pounds" measure is simply a mathematical formula of often questionable value. You might be better off shooting pine boards. So hey, just because you don't use the most widely deployed defensive handgun cartridge in the world doesn't make you weird or inadequate, it just makes you uniquely you😉. Best to all. Keep charging that windmill.😂

[@G79911997]

Dug out a 12 year old box of that 127gr Ranger +p+. Out of my G34- I got an average velocity of 1368 FPS on the LabRadar. Smoking load for 9mm...

[@ibpositivemostly7437]

Cool video thanks.

[@blacklight6200]

Anyone who runs 9mm +p+ just needs to run 357sig. 357sig has virtually the same pressure as +p+ 9mm but with higher velocity and with a gun designed around all ammo that goes through it having that pressure. My 357 sig reloads go over 1400 fps with a 125gr projectile out of a 3.9 inch barrel and over 1200 fps with a 147gr out of a 3.9 inch barrel.

[@blacklight6200]

@@Valorius the difference in cartridge capacity between a 357 sig and a 9mm with the same magazine length is between 1-3 rounds. Since glocks are so popular I'll use them as an example. The glock 19 which is 9mm holds 15 rounds, the glock 32 which is 357 sig holds 13, and even the glock 30 which is 45acp holds 10. The average number of shots fired in self defense is between 2-7 depending on the source and the number of assailants ie single vs group. So based off that even a compact 45acp theoretically is enough rounds without reloading. In addition anyone who trains, which if you carry a firearm it's irresponsible and foolish not to, should be able to reload in just a couple seconds and if you have had to fire off more than 10 rounds you should have found cover by then which gives more time to reload. Some states don't even allow more than 10 rounds in a magazine regardless of caliber. The response 9mM hOlDs MoRe BuLlEtS is a common response and a typically true statement by its self but not one with much factual REASONING behind it. And this is just a few thoughts in regards to 9mm +p+ vs 357 sig cartridge capacity. There is even more that could be said and FAR more that could be said in regards to standard pressure 9mm vs 357 sig if you look at the other pros and cons of each.

[@kevinrichardson8859]

​@@Valorius with 357sig you won't need as many shots to drop your target

[@onpsxmember]

Is it cheaper to buy +p+ 9mm or 357 Sig if one would make that the sole diet.

[@justinassobieskis]

Great video. Thank you.

[@DIYDad1]

I've seen this trend towards light for caliber projectiles pushing high fps what are your thoughts on high velocity solid copper 9mm like the 68gr or 90 gr Lehigh defense loads? I bought some they seem fine and feed fine, good penetration through barriers but obviously no expansion with the extreme defenders. I know you're a 40 fan, 40 S&w is my go to home defense gun! But it looks like there's some 9mm loads that get pretty close to 40.

[@randymente80]

All you need is a 357 hollow point and be done with it. Plus p this plus p that its all to get more money out you , Nice vid Sam

[@randymente80]

@User-GunSam Hi Sam never used telegram just do emails

[@pecosjane]

Are the higher pressure, higher velocity rounds less accurate, more accurate, or no noticeable difference?

[@GunSam]

Depends on many factors. Some higher pressure ones might be more accurate in some guns, but it seems to me that overall my experience is that lower pressure rounds are more accurate.

[@jeremywatson9129]

I agree w/ GunSam. I know this is different but out of my AR full power mil spec M193 will give you close to 3100 fps out of a 16in barrel and will give me roughly 2 1/4 to 3 in groups and if I use PMC .223A I'll get about 2800 to 2850 fps from the same barrel and get about 1 1/4 to 2 in groups but I have gotten 1in groups from it. All at 100 yards. Both are 55 gr fmj.

[@jeremywatson9129]

@@nikos6220 thanks for the input. What I put down was just my limited observation with two different rounds from one rifle. I guess correlation does not always equal causation. In your opinion really high pressure stuff can be just as accurate provided the consistency of charge was precisely controlled?

[@Life_Is_Torture0000]

I carry Buffalo Bore .38 sp +p in a 12 oz snubby. Shooting it is an interesting experience.

[@csipawpaw7921]

The Barretta 92 can not handle +P+ ammo that well. It has been known to break the slide in front of the bolt face. That is one reason the USA replaced the model 92.

[@noizychild]

Nice, you need to get some 9bple. That's the OG +P+!

[@noizychild]

Nvm, looks like you did.!!!! Hah

[@LEFTY1506SHILOH]

Oh my gosh! wth; I need some of that: Buffalo Bore, 115 grain, +p+, got it!

[@TheHappy2cu]

The low temperature you are shooting in will effect velocity.

[@GunSam]

No they won't. I have already done this study out of the same boxes, 20 degrees VS 80 degrees. On average 60% of the ammo I tested shot faster in the winter. So maybe average the low temp will increase the velocity.

[@michaelgibbs3011]

About 10 years ago when I was even dumber than I am now, I tested my issued Sig .357 against 9mm +P+ to find a 9mm load equal to the Sig load because I didn't want to carry off duty the heavier weapon. My test was very unscientific. First I shot both at 100 yards to see which bullet dropped the most which would give me an idea of velocity. They both dropped the same amount. Then I concocted different materials to see which one penetrated and expanded the most. I used wet phone books, pine boards, feed sacks full of sand and dirt. I also shot into 50 pound bags of livestock feed. Lots of water jugs, some filled with colored water to show the shock. Lined up jugs to test penetration. I ended testing having concluded both calibers performed the same. No difference at all that I could see. After all that, I returned to my lightweight 1911 in 45acp which in separate trials proved superior to both the striker fired weapons. In some of the stuff I shot, penetration was about the same, in others the 45 exceeded. But expansion results made the decision easy. The best I got from the Sig and the hot nine was .55". The premium 230 grain JHP 45 expanded reliably to .76. That's about 1/2" compared to 3/4". Also, the expansion and bullet paths of the nines and Sig were worse in that sometimes all the petals didn't flare out and the paths changed during penetration. The smaller bullets sometimes exited to the side or bottom of the water jugs while the big 45s drove straight through.Very, very unscientific but enough to tell me I'd always keep and carry (off duty) the commander size 1911. Oh, the 45 bullet drop at 100 yards was worse, but at 50 yards from a rest I could blow up the water jugs, whereby the two other guns were hit and miss and on the hits, the energy level of the smaller rounds had fallen off and jug explosions were less dramatic. Of course there were way more details involved, but for me, the overall results were sufficient to convince me that not many concealable pistols are superior to the 45acp. Mine now is a Ruger lightweight commander size and has never shown me a malfunction. For me, the best traits of a 1911 other than the obvious punch factor is the crisp single action trigger, the 3 positive safeties, the flatness of it, and the simplicity of the guts, (series 70) and the natural point ability. Good grief. I had not intended to write so much.

[@GunSam]

It's actually a good write up. Testing ammo and never coming to the perfect load conclusion is a good thing. You roll with the changes in technology and that's good, it's how we went from the Moro Warriors taking a cylinder full of .38 Short Colt with little effect to modern day HST in 10mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig and other calibers people in the past wouldn't have dreamed of being so effective. It's what I basically do here and I love it. Now we got HP plugs and high antimony lead, mechanically and chemically bonded jackets and even fluted solids. So much to work with beyond basic caliber debate. The moral of the story is that in the past, it was all about caliber debate, but now days it's more about technology debate regardless of caliber, within reason. Like a .357 Sig can pretty much do what a .357 Magnum can do and a 10mm can pretty much do what a heavier .357 Magnum can do, but a .380 Auto will never be a .44 Magnum lol.

[@michaelblesi6777]

147 HST standard pressure works good enough for me.

[@cowboywoodard2569]

They are great in a carbine

[@Mrmigo8703]

I hear lots of 9mm guys say that there is no real difference in stopping power between handgun rounds, but then they will only carry 9mm +P or +P+. If the energy doesn't matter, and standard pressure rounds perform fine, why are you carrying the round with more recoil and more gun wear?

[@NAMELESSINTERNETADDICT]

Extra velocity helps to punch through bone and barriers better.

[@crusiethmaximuss]

I wonder how this ammo or a similar rated 9x19 rated cartridge would perform out of the new Henry Homesteader carbine. (: Definitely more gooder!!!

[@rob6850]

Lucky Gunner did a good video a while back about various 9 mm ammos through a 16" barrel.

[@crusiethmaximuss]

@@rob6850 Ooh, checkin' that out!!! Thanks

[@rob6850]

@@crusiethmaximuss Happy to share. Found it easily enough? What did you think? I would also recommend the video of Buffman R.A.N.G.E. reviewing the Winchester M1152, as he shoots it through various barrel lengths, including 16".

[@crusiethmaximuss]

@@rob6850 I actually didn't. I found a video about PCC on his channel, but not sure it was what you're talking about. Can you link it?

[@rob6850]

@@crusiethmaximuss Lucky Gunner's Self Defense Ammo for PCCs: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qKnGd35pp8iki5o

[@Gieszkanne]

+p is not a regulated term. You can have a standard load from one brand that has more velocity than a +p from another brand.

[@NAMELESSINTERNETADDICT]

+P means 10% more pressure. Its not about velocity.

[@allenbolen9705]

Like to see underwood extreme defender +p+ 90 gr box says 1550 fps and 480 foot pounds 😱

[@adamsaylor7427]

Nice haircut! I haven’t had one in over 12 years. Great video too. Thanks for the content

[@paulscountry456]

Too much in those sub compacts for sure, 1300 fps is when things start to happen.

[@surgekiller4659]

The cold afects gun powder, thats why ur bullets are slower. Thats why 9mm para and 556 have more presure than regulas 9mm luger an .223.

[@GunSam]

I did a study, years ago where I took boxes of ammo and chronographed half in the winter and half in the summer. About 70% of them shot faster in the winter. So with no disrespect, you don't know what you are talking about.

[@surgekiller4659]

@@GunSam i put a link to a study

[@dwarden3]

+p+ out of a KelTec sub 2000 is amazing.

[@bobjohnson1633]

Your comment about the buffalo bore is hilarious. Their 9mm has 550 ft/lbs and their 357 has 800-900 ft/lbs. Buffalo bore is buffalo bore!

[@basedyt6485]

Great video & great explanation of SAAMI designations.+P+ is really an 80's-90's thing. For example, Speer 115 GDHP ( current iteration) does whatever you need of it from 3" barrels on up. The 9mm will likely dominate until we start using "phased plasma" guns. It's just reality. .40, .357SIG, 10mm, .45ACP are great but merits aside they can't approach the market dominance of 9mmP. It's adequate with massive options & support & that's what matters.

[@pauldunecat]

@@Valorius And we will still be comparing against 158g .357 mag for performance. :-D

[@markstephens5120]

Every time there is a run on ammo 9mm is nowhere to be found. I can always get ammo for my .40, 357sig, and .45acp. The .357sig is quickly becoming my favorite round. I do own a 9mm too but it's been shelved for a while.

[@basedyt6485]

You're trolling, right? In light of 9x19mm's impending descent into moribund obscurity, I'll simply observe that these last 121 years was a "good run".😂 30 Super Carry? Thanks for the laugh.

[@basedyt6485]

@@bobjones-bt9bh Umm, you have no idea what you're talking about. 200 ft lbs ( a contrived unit of measurement) is a significant difference on your planet? Why can't people just accept that 9mmP balances various positive attributes better than other pistol cartridges put to similar use? It's really that simple. Again, 300 ft lbs vs. 500 ft lbs is night & day, according to you? I'm genuinely sorry but that's just gibberish.

[@basedyt6485]

@@bobjones-bt9bh I'm also surprised people are still parroting Marshall & Sanow. That crap was exposed for BS decades ago.

[@hillbillyscholar8126]

“I’m a 9x19 and I’m drinking milk! I’m gonna be as big and strong as a .357 some day!“ So says every 9mm since 1935…😜

[@bahuilok]

I can clearly see the pre fired bullet design from 5 meters

[@jessiejane6259]

9x19 straight wall cartridge can never match bottleneck design as in the .357 sig which really should be named 9mm Magnum.

[@jaypee389]

A G26 triple stack .32 ACP FMJ beats all of these on full auto in theory. Only hits count.