A Bishop and an Atheist Discuss Meaning | Within Reason Ep. 22

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---------- VIDEO NOTES ----------
Welcome to Within Reason, a new weekly podcast dedicated to broadly philosophical discussion with expert guests.
Bishop Robert Barron is the bishop of the Diocese of Winona-Rochester and the founder of Word on Fire Catholic Ministries. His website, www.WordOnFire.org, reaches millions of people each year, and he is one of the world’s most followed Catholics on social media. His KZbin videos have been viewed over 125 million times, and he has over 3 million followers on Facebook.
Bishop Barron joins host Alex O'Connor to discuss the "crisis of meaning" we might be living through, the reducibility of purpose to evolutionary drives, the conditions for salvation on Christianity, and whether God can be accurately described as analogous to a tyrannical dictator.
---------------- LINKS -----------------
Alex's previous debate with Bishop Barron: • Bishop Robert Barron &...
Bishop Barron's Website: www.wordonfire.org/
--------- TIMESTAMPS -----------
0:00 Introduction
4:51 The Crisis of Meaning
17:39 Are we Just Driven by Evolutionary Drives?
30:55 Death
41:17 What if Someone Struggles to Believe in God?
44:18 Jesus Christ and the Conditions for Salvation
1:02:43 Is God a Tyrannical Dictator?
1:09:41 Outro
------SPECIAL THANKS --------
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Itamar Lev
Evan Allen
John Early
Dmitry C.
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g8speedy
James Davis
Thanks to Arian Foster for producing the Within Reason intro music, and to Matthew Sienzant (mdsienzant.com/) for the animations.
------------- CONNECT --------------
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[@CosmicSkeptic]

Get 30% off Blinkist premium and enjoy 2 memberships for the price of 1! Start your 7-day free trial by clicking here: blinkist.com/cosmicskeptic Let me know what you think of the new podcast! Looking forward to posting these weekly. Don't forget to subscribe to and rate the podcast on Spotify/Apple Podcasts, if you feel inclined, which really helps me out. Thank you!

[@watch-Dominion-2018]

not until you stop funding gas chambers

[@User-bl5cw]

Talk to Avi. He can discuss nutrition and ethics with you - and hopefully even help you with the problems you specified.

[@SuperLemonfish]

I miss the cosmic skeptic who was willing to have tough discussions with people he disagreed with. The skeptic who honestly searched for truth and tried his best to be a good person. It seems like thats gone now, you refuse to discuss this gigantic issue further or ask for help or criticism of any kind. its so unlike you. Unsubbed

[@HelloThere-xx1ct]

I don't enjoy these types of general conversations with fundamentalists because they are dishonest in nature. As a Catholic, this guy believes very specific things that are demonstrably wrong. I really don't care about his philosophy. He is a bishop in one of the most harmful organizations in human history. He is a leader in a cult, plain and simple. This man is celibate because he thinks that is important his 3,000 year old Canaanite god and he lives his life to promote that others make similar decisions. It's nice that he's read some philosophy books but it doesn't seem to have helped him not devote his life to promoting obvious delusions. I'd really like to hear more about how his philosophy interacts with his association with the Church and its many falsehoods. Asking him large philosophical questions allows him to launder his insane beliefs through an hour long conversation. In reality asking a pointed questions like "Can a man come back from death", will reveal the only answer you will get is some version of because the bible tells me so. Because that's all there is to being a Christian. He doesn't get to tack on all this extra stuff because God's scared word isn't good enough to convince people.

[@mojo449]

I am happy you are opening up to other ideas. I really respect that.

[@ThumpingThromnambular]

I really like the spirit of this channel. It seems to me it is most oriented toward truth rather than some aggressive bashing of someone's beliefs for the sake of it.

[@TheTruthIsAbsolute]

,

[@Netomp51]

I’m a devout Catholic and I love listening to Alex, he’ll find the truth…

[@davidevans8242]

Alex has always been a class act. He’s the most epistemically humble atheist I’m aware of.

[@leo--4341]

i think it’s inevitable when ur beliefs have real world implications

[@JGComments]

Or bashing the person he’s talking to.

[@treytrapani9813]

I wish this was how all religious/atheist dialogue played out.

[@brightroarttttbbbb]

Atheism is the world's biggest dead end. A person who denies the existence of God contradicts himself. Because humans are naturally weak and in need of shelter. They cannot solve most of their problems. People also face many problems that they cannot solve. Sometimes illness, sometimes loneliness, etc. They experience problems. Most people believe in God and they are the only ones who respond to those who ask for help. Existence is Allah, He accepts prayers, there is great harmony in the universe, the sun, the moon and the stars. Could these happen by chance? The last religion, Islam, says that Allah is one and the same. Islam values ​​brotherhood and cooperation.

[@magnusfiskvik509]

Yes agreed! Wonderful discussion this!

[@isinox]

what did you take from the conversation?

[@bluesky45299]

Quran says: “Allah:there is no deity worthy of worship except he”:The Neccessary life/consciousness,sustainer of life/consciousness.” Wire like neuronal structures that conduct electricity via ions/neurotransmitters in the CNS/PNS possess no attribute of thinking/life and yet that has “randomly” led to life. Consciousness/thinking is an innate idea(“Fitra”)that is distinct from carbon skeleton and yet the materialist scientist believes that chemistry turned into biology via “god of randomness”/”Emergent property”/”law of nature”. Consciousness can only stem from Necessary Consciousness (Allah-one/indivisible/loving/self-sufficient perfection).

[@ezpzlemonsqueezy90]

​@@bluesky45299a book says its true therefore it's true. Sounds like sound reasoning.

[@adastra123]

Devout Catholic here from Ireland 🇮🇪. Subscribed . I have listened to both sides of the arguments for past 6 years or so. Eventually coming back to catholocism. I love atheists that interrogate my faith as hard as possible. I love it more when my faith can withstand it.

[@mariasheena5225]

❤️❤️❤️

[@rosiegirl2485]

Beautifully said! ⚘️

[@ZhangK71]

Fair enough sentiment

[@guzmanvitar5382]

Im an atheist who is profoundly in love with traditions of the west, including many of the fruits of judeo christian culture. Also been enjoying the two sides of this argument.

[@frisco61]

So do I. It only reinforces my belief because I always find that at their core, vast majority of them possess only a caricature understanding of Christianity. And it’s intellectually pathetic.

[@nonchalanto]

Bishop Barron is such an amazing communicator. I haven’t believed in God all my life and I’m still not quite sure what I believe, but his exposition is very compelling. Major props to you Alex for having this discussion honestly and respectfully.

[@owena7434]

He should have said what the argument for naturally selected values was missing when he called it reductive

[@S3.14codm]

I would say the same thing about Barron but religion was something I was born into, so to me it just sounds like words are being repeated… since I stepped away from religion I’ve talked to people that still had faith and it doesn’t help. Let’s just say they always tell me the answers are in their book but when there’s a tough question I have it’s either “nobody knows & only god knows, there’s a reason” (even though nobody knows the reason also), preaching or deflection, a request to just have faith or all of the above but not knowing something doesn’t help me because I’m getting back into something blindly & refuse to do that. All I can say is, if it helps you feel good? Go for it, just don’t be a butthole to those who are different because people being who they are isn’t all by choice

[@nonchalanto]

@@S3.14codm ​​⁠I understand that you’re frustrated when religious people give you non-answers to the hardest questions. But I think that honest, intelligent theists come closer to answering questions about meaning than anyone else. I tried extracting meaning from the Sam Harris/Richard Dawkins/Christopher Hitchens type of philosophy, and there’s just… nothing there. Materialism is philosophically absurd, and there is clearly a realm of meaning. Whether God is at the root of it, I’m not sure, but I’m starting to lean in that direction. It’s not blind faith in anything, any more so than you have “faith” that you’ll wake up in the morning when you go to sleep. Do you have evidence that you will wake up? No. Do you believe that you will? Yes. Thats the kind of faith that’s talked about.

[@S3.14codm]

@@nonchalanto the waking up part in your comment isn’t all that great, it just sounds like Feel Good words making it seem like it’s miraculous. Yes tomorrow isn’t promised but when it comes to this I could only see it as chance or a case of probability rather than a miracle. I know there’s a possibility of me waking up tomorrow based on observation of reality e.g. wars? diseases? cosmic catastrophic events? etc. also for me it’s evident that the activity or action of waking up has been done for about 10000 days already, so it’s very likely that I will wake up tomorrow but this differs to each person depending on what is going on with or around them unless there’s a cosmic event then yes we’re all dead. I know there’s a possibility of me not waking up tomorrow because of the acknowledgment of things that’s observed that can take life… Now the question is: have I ever observed a spiritual activity or a supernatural natural phenomenon? No, not once so I’m still going into it blindly being that there’s nothing of it that can be observed. When I say I never felt or experienced anything relating to religious belief people with faith will pin this on me “but did you try”, “you weren’t a real Christian”, “you probably ignored the experience or signs” or the ol “you’re going to hell” scare tactic… again if something makes people feel good, why not. I have a belief in a god (agnostic? If that’s the word) not to feel god though. one can say I sit with the atheist being that I don’t side with many words from many other theist especially those who are very religious

[@S3.14codm]

@@nonchalanto i feel like religion might be for you, it seems that these what I call feel good words bring you joy or whatever the case may be! I would suggest it… but I don’t have faith waking up tomorrow, anything can happen

[@Sveccha93]

I'm a non theist and found this a very beautiful and honest discussion free of animosity. Very refreshing.

[@hamzaharfaoui1411]

Arabic native?

[@Sveccha93]

@@hamzaharfaoui1411 يا ريت! مع الأسف لا. ا

[@veganevolution]

It's actually all superficial.

[@Sveccha93]

@@veganevolution ok dad

[@teresaamanfu7408]

What is he calling objective value. I have difficulty listening to these religious jorden petersonesq types. The Bible as literature is fine but without evidence of an actual god,…

[@lukehardin9]

I know that this is a deeply unpopular opinion, but as a lifelong skeptical seeker of God, I’ve found that poetry brings me infinitely closer to faith than purely rational argument, and in that sense there are few modern religious thinkers that I enjoy listening to more than Bishop Barron. Great content, Alex!

[@John.Christopher]

The good, the true, the BEAUTIFUL

[@dreistheman7797]

Right, and that beauty, that deep feeling, is what God wants us to experience. These “objective values” that Bishop Robert Barron was describing.

[@jkm9332]

Join the kingdom and family of God!

[@TerenceClark]

Except I find beauty in art and poetry and nature, among many other things, and at no point do any of those things drive me closer to a god. I understand your general sentiment, but I don't find it a particularly valuable approach in terms of drawing me toward a conclusion. And I'm not particularly fond of people who imply that just because I don't believe there's a God behind it I'm somehow unable to experienced depth, beauty, or awe. I know the original commenter didn't imply that, but the replies were certainly trending in that direction.

[@tomlabooks3263]

Luke - we are just beginning to understand the neurobiological reasons why what you’re saying here is 100% true. Iain McGilchrist’s “The Master and His Emissary” is a gem and it discussed this topic.

[@andrewlamb3585]

As an atheist who was raised Catholic who returned the the Catholic Church as a 30 year old, I appreciate that you are giving Bishop Barron the time. While Jordan Peterson caught me while I was atheist, Bishop Barron secured my return home. Thank you for the podcast!

[@liamhutfles4113]

😬

[@FelipeGonzalez-xb5db]

The same here ❤

[@Federal_Bureau_of_Investigatio]

oh shut up@@liamhutfles4113

[@youlig1]

​@@liamhutfles4113 reason you say? But reason is not what you do...

[@chamicels]

seriously I don't think you were atheist in the first place. It would be horrible to do that to yourself to go to one extreme to another.

[@briansguitarsongs9619]

Alex, I'm very impressed with your intellect and your graceful open-mindedness. I'm an evangelical Christian and your insights are refreshing. Bless you 😊

[@gristly_knuckle]

I saw Jesus in a film, and she was the most beautiful and distracting person ever. She created a desire in me when I didn't need anything before. Alex, too, has a sort of theatrical Jesus-esque presence.

[@jasonstrange1490]

You know Jesus is a he gristly.@@gristly_knuckle

[@adjd1576]

I'm impressed that after all this he can still be atheist.

[@jkherold63]

You are listening to a conversation between a Catholic priest and an atheist. Are you sure you're an Evangelical Christian?

[@laleydelamor1327]

KUDOS to Alex’ mother for raising such a beautiful and emphatetic human being! I’m catholic and all I see in Alex is beautiful loving soul and human being! 😇

[@Siska0Robert]

I couldn't agree more. I followed both of these individuals before they crossed paths and I can't get enough of this style of discussion. Mutual understandement and compassion is what's the most missing in this world.

[@lancetschirhart7676]

Yeah he's a looker

[@rationalmuscle]

Such a lovely post. Thank you for sharing.

[@PatrickSteil]

Seems Alex is searching for Truth. Praying he will get all the way there :)

[@harrykimura9830]

I see a lost soul that should REPENT, humble himself and believe in Jesus.

[@VampireSquirrel]

Ipso facto: The fact itself 8:50 Summum bonum : The greatest good 15:10 Liturgy: the form of the worship cordis homo : heart of man 49:45 enantiodromia: the tendency for things to change into their opposites 1:01:24 Agere contra: acting against 1:01:40 ipsum esse: "being" itself: as in existence itself 1:03:25

[@Thesteadfast]

Can you do this for all BB videos? He does love his Latin.

[@timothywilliams4089]

@@Thesteadfast Nil carborundum illegitimo,..'don't let the bastards grind you down'....

[@VampireSquirrel]

@@timothywilliams4089 That grammar hurts...

[@timothywilliams4089]

@@VampireSquirrel My late brother, he had many such informative translations.

[@borneandayak6725]

Love it, thanks. Jesus bless ❤❤❤

[@Cult_Of_Mangina]

This was honestly eye opening as an atheist. Mainly the crisis of meaning issue.

[@wet-read]

Meaning is inescapable. The more profound stuff many think of when the word is mentioned, especially in this context, revolves around existential issues and hangups. But not everyone experiences all such issues and hangups, nor do they do so in the same fashion or to the same degree. Btw, an atheist wrote the best book on meaning one could ever hope to find.

[@panickysociety97]

​@@wet-readwho.? Which book.?

[@wet-read]

@@panickysociety97 The man: late atheist philosopher Quentin Smith The book: The Felt Meanings of the World: A Metaphysics of Feeling (1986)

[@chemquests]

Meaning is a human hang up not n objective part of the universe. There’s no requirement to have an answer for these questions; this is where Absurdism can be useful.

[@RobotProctor]

Most people in Alex's shoes would not have said they started eating some animal products again; they would just keep up a charade. Alex didn't. He communicated openly about his struggles even though he was strongly incentivized not to go through the personal attacks for that.

[@tyrannicclub4200]

Precisely! Everyone bashing Alex for not being open should seriously take a moment to consider why Alex would even come out in the first place.

[@asagoldsmith3328]

​@@tyrannicclub4200yeah the toxicity of some of these reactions is quite akin to when someone becomes an apostate

[@tyrannicclub4200]

@@asagoldsmith3328 This too. I wonder how many people presenting such a vitriolic reaction are themselves apostates; I think a nonzero number of people and I feel like that’s so hypocritical.

[@Cor6196]

@@asagoldsmith3328 Same exact thought, Asa. I wonder too if there’re other ideologies - political parties and systems, for example - that inspire such deep hatred of the “apostate.” In philosophy, on the other hand, it’s hard to imagine a hard determinist working up a vicious attitude towards a free-willer, a Stoic spouting violence against an Epicurean! But who knows? Human nature can be endlessly confounding!🤷‍♂️

[@MrAllmightyCornholioz]

He was making excuses to murder animals. Alex is SMART enough to consult a doctor or a health expert BUT he spent all that time talking to a DIET FAD advocate. He never mentions about going to see a certified nutritionist because he knows it's better to lie by omission than it is to straight up say "No, I didn't did enough research to find a health expert because I rather simp to Mikayla Peterson."

[@galacticfarmer4272]

Alex leans towards an interview rather to an actual debate/discussion. Some views of the invited speaker are challenged, but only to a certain extent. This is interesting because we open space for people to express their thoughts in a more linear way. Of course, sometimes I'd like to see a few more rejoinders, but it's an interesting format anyways. Excited for the next episode :D

[@Lamster66]

I think if Alex went all in, it would decend into a heated exchange and be a very short conversation. By standing off, he gets Bish to say a lot more and allow us to hear his views.on the subject. Whilst Bish could never convince me otherwise of my Atheism I am intrested what makes otherwise intelligent people fall for it.

[@baizhanghuaihai2298]

@@Lamster66 It seems that it’s often one of the following: 1)obvious emotional desperation for a stable foundation of meaning; 2)some sort of revelatory experience like psychedelic use or a NDE; 3)rigid and often abusive indoctrination in childhood combined with limited capacity for critical self-reflection.

[@zapkvr0101]

​@baizhanghuaihai2298 the catholic church certainly relies on number three.

[@Lamster66]

@@baizhanghuaihai2298 I think Alex was pretty close when he implied some people needed something to escape the inevitability of our deaths. I'm sure It's something we all think about at some point and contemplate that we will no longer be here.. For me the trigger is usually something like an old piece of TV News footage, say of WW1. I watch the grainy B&W footage with the realization that most likely everyone in that footage is long dead, and the reasons they were fighting practically forgotten, as time extinguishes the traces of their existance and of those that knew them. Now 4 or 5 generations on they exist only as images on film and of passed down stories of their existance and of the things they did. I usually then start think about how long ago my own parents and my grandparents died and how time marches on without them. Then I think about how I've now lived longer than I have left. (Thats sounds really depressing put like that) I know that over the next 2 or 3 decades most of the people I know or know me will be gone. And like most of us there will be nothing to indicate that we were ever here. The rich and famous survive in peoples memories a bit longer due to their reputations or their work. But eventually even they will be forgotton and become just a name connected to a fact.. And this I think what bothers some people. Some people need to believe that, its not the end that they will continue in some form. Because it gives their life a reason or purpose. Other than Growing up Going to Work and having Children. Because for most of us that is our existance. The other things we experienced or did in our lifetime for our own pleasure or gratification will be lost too when we are gone. I guess some of us just accept that is what it is.

[@baizhanghuaihai2298]

@@Lamster66 I realized LONG ago (I am almost 40, you seem maybe younger than I), that I am a nameless faceless peasant in history, and it was a deeply comforting thought, it relieved me of the burden of feeling like I needed to make the most of my life. It doesn’t bother me to just let my survival instinct keep me going til my time comes. Doesn’t bother me one bit. Depression happens when people have the expectation that they are important. When you realize you aren’t, it feels better, much lighter.

[@elitistbananadictator]

Even as a devout Christian, I find Alex a very respectable man that articulates ideas in a very intelligible way. I wouldn’t change this man one bit!

[@paulhurley9475]

Well, I see your point, but I desire the highest good for him, so I pray for his return to the Catholic faith.

[@elitistbananadictator]

I also see your point, as Christian I wish the same, but Christian or Atheist, he is still very intelligent and charming

[@lastsaint4162]

Nah! My Religious trauma will never let me go back to your ideas

[@michael-4k4000]

Alex is a fraud! Jesus believes in you even if you can see him in the moment 🙏. God bless u all.

[@jimmorrison2657]

@@michael-4k4000 "Jesus believes in you even if you can see him in the moment" - How do you know this? I mean how do know this specific piece of information? I don't think you do really know it. I think you have just made it up because you think that's how it should be.

[@AnthonyGregor]

Alex. This interview is amazing. This new format is perfect. Keep going. Thanks for letting Barron speak openly about the Faith. Amazing questions and answers.

[@filkspline1740]

I can’t wait for Alex to turn into a devote catholic lmao

[@garythefishable]

I have also called this 😅

[@lllULTIMATEMASTERlll]

He won’t.

[@tennicksalvarez9079]

Hmm

[@squeegybeckenheim2489]

Why so sure about it? Alex is open to the possibility he stated more than once.

[@mt000mp]

@@lllULTIMATEMASTERlll what if he did?

[@alaricpagel2756]

Wow, that was a fantastic interview. Really enjoyed the insights and perspectives of Bishop Barron. Thank you.

[@FartPanther]

Thanks Alex, I'm glad you are producing content, I knew from another video you've not had an easy ride of late! Much love and support. I wonder if Alex (if you read this) you would consider talking to intellectuals from other faiths, I think you are a very honest person with a lot of integrity intellectually and I wonder if you are getting mellow in your old age or if you have a soft spot specifically for Christianity compared to other beliefs you find implausible. I was more than a bit put out by some of the repetitive unchallenged lack of substance to done of the conversation. Your gentle questioning was dismissed, sidestepped and gishgalloped at times, his personal bias and arrogance meant the priest could not even have the decency to credit people with other views and opinions as really being convinced of their own views. Shocking, self defeating and shallow. The intellectual fortetude of a toddler. "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ― Aristotle

[@isaac1572]

@@FartPanther Excellent interview Alex. You are gentle enough to encourage Bishop Barron to express his beliefs to the point of unproven opinion, through to the contradictions of the nature of God. You have sufficient knowledge of the Bishops beliefs to coax out his arrogance and 'holier than thou ego'. The christian faith story appears to be becoming more flexible over time to facilitate new scientific and phycological understanding. However the resurrection story will always doom it to fantasy, unless that too is one day explained as a metaphor.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

​@@isaac1572 Why do you think "the resurrection story will always doom it to fantasy " ? I assume you mean the resurrection of Jesus necessarily negates the truth of Christianity? I see the opposite. I think the resurrection of Jesus, although rejected by most scientific evidence, is the foundational cornerstone of Christianity that supports the beliefs of Christian faith. So inflexibility in regards to the resurrection is actually something positive. I do agree that the resurrection of Jesus may be interpreted as a metaphor but I think a rejection of the historical crucifixion and bodily resurrection of Jesus would nullify the basic beliefs of Christianity. Respectfully...

[@tommore3263]

@@FartPanther Bishop Baron and Catholicism are philosophically based on Aristotle and Aquinas. Bishop Baron addressed all points. Lots of us find mindless matter in meaningless motion, 18th century materialist worldviews as simply and manifestly absurd. And so they are. The existence of God , as Bishop Baron can show anyone, is easy to demonstrate from evidence and reason alone. Free willed rational beings are not the unintelligible cosmic accidents proclaimed in a frankly dehumanizing way by materialist atheists. Its an incoherent worldview and check out the Marxist atheism - based solutions for the worst world slaughter in all of history. Your animus towards Bishop Baron is obvious and unwarranted. But he actually studied Aristotle. And understood him as did Aquinas. They built the west and the modern.

[@johnd.shultz7423]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 Magical thinking at its best...

[@GerrardAtgoogle]

Probably every Christian is a doubter at heart, but sees reinforcement through "The One that has risen". Alex is contemplative and humble, the Lord bless his soul. Blessings to Bishop Barron to continue proclaiming Lord's Glory.

[@JobinJacobKavalam]

Thank you Alex. You asked some really pertinent questions. As a practicing Catholic, the conversation really helped me to deepen my faith.

[@jamescarr4662]

sneaky....

[@gristly_knuckle]

IF Jesus's message ever caused anyone to hate god for being a fat, drunken, self-absorbed ointment waster, then he deepened your faith, for your hate was love.

[@Scribble336]

And I the absolute opposite.

[@inolvidablee]

Great interview Alex. You gave enough contrast (pushback) in order to go deeper while being transparent and letting your guest speak his mind. Congratulations!

[@jamespeterson7125]

I find it interesting that Bishop Barron so firmly stated that he thinks that Alex's thinking was biased by an underlying need to prove materialism while not recognizing the possibility the opposite could be true within himself. It really broke down for me when he dwelled so long on saying he couldn't believe that Alex actually held particular viewpoints. In the end the Bishop stated far too often that he "just can't believe" certain things and that he thinks certain connections between concepts are just too thin. It's essentially an admission that he was choosing to ignore actual arguments for wanting to believe in something he finds beautiful.

[@tripp8833]

I think what Barron meant is that Alex's belief in materialism/reductionism is counter intuitive to his own personal experience, which he discounts to follow this stream of reductionist thinking.

[@MrCmon113]

>while not recognizing the possibility the opposite could be true within himself Yeah, dude literally dedicated his life to defend the indefensible. A massive effort that kind of debunks itself as it only further illustrates the inaction and impotence of his deity.

[@petarivancic6482]

@@tripp8833Great answer. I was baffled long time until now of what Bishop Barron was trying to explain there, this comment makes it clear, thanks

[@billwilliamson1506]

@@tripp8833Yet he still referred to Alex’s perspective as ‘reductionist’. Barron made it clear that Alex’s perspective just doesn’t satisfy him or his views on the arts. Ironically, it’s not reductionist to say “the basis for human actions ultimately derive from biological factors”. If it is, then Barton’s statement on God’s love is also reductionist as having only come from a creator.

[@MrPinksViolin]

Yes! I agree 100%. I actually didn’t find the conversation very compelling for that reason. Alex listed a variety of reasons folks can lean toward atheism and the bishop just says “Nope” and proceeds to give no reason other than “doesn’t work for me”. The conversation really didn’t offer anything new. I guess people just like the fact that Alex and the bishop are so polite to one another.

[@matheussalim5652]

As a Catholic, great questions! I love genuine questions from atheist/non-christians/Catholic. The harder the better! (As long as they are genuine)

[@Piercetheveilnow]

Alex, that was extraordinary. I couldn’t stop listening. This Catholic thanks you for asking very good questions and masterfully hosting this conversation.

[@JoBo301]

So glad that Alex is back and it seems he found an interview format and style of questioning that enables him to absolutely shine, what a beautiful soul he is becoming.

[@orenji196]

I’m so so happy you’re back to making videos Alex! I loved this conversation as a Christian viewer with a lot of questions. I appreciate both you and Bishop Robert Baron for being willing to take on the tough questions and just have an open discussion about it. I really look forward to more discussions like these!

[@jefferymuter4659]

Bishop Baron is one of the rare ones that does such a surgical extraction on the ideas/philosophies that intrigue me, but ultimately feel wrong in a way that's oft difficult to describe without thinking on it intently for a bit. Doing that on the fly mid-convo is really a kind of masterclass on that level of abstract thinking. Kudos.

[@StuntpilootStef]

I'd say he puts too much emphasis on feelings. It's all well and good that he feels Hamlet is some sort of transcendent work, but he has no real reason for it besides him wanting it to be true.

[@coryharasha]

​@@StuntpilootStef Perhaps one can consider that subjective feelings have the capacity to transcend our reasoning and calculation capabilities at the cost of precision and confidence in correctness. Feelings help us approximate answers that are currently too difficult to define and answer so we can take action in a reasonable time. For example, it is difficult to rationally calculate what food is most optimal for health but feelings can be very helpful for finding guidance. There is a balance to be struck between feelings and reason as feelings help us act in helpful ways to achieve our goals with limited data while reason helps us improve the accuracy of feelings to take more optimal actions. For example, we may feel that Oreos are most helpful for our health but reason can correct that feeling. Similarly, reason may say that we don't need to eat carrots today but a feeling may provide insight that there is something in carrots our body is currently requiring. Although if all reason is providing is a dismissal of feelings because they cannot be rationally validated or understood, then this is worse than the feelings themselves because it eliminates the capability of taking reasonable actions. For reason to properly correct a feeling, it must provide a better solution, in my opinion. For example, if all reason does is say Oreos are bad and doesn't provide an alternative food to eat, it's better to eat Oreos until we find a food that's more reasonable.

[@StuntpilootStef]

@@coryharasha "subjective feelings have the capacity to transcend our reasoning and calculation capabilities at the cost of precision and confidence in correctness" This is just a very convoluted way of saying guessing exists. Like I said, he wants it to be true, that's why he believes it. He has no rational basis for it at any level. He's not just less accurate or in balance with rationality, he has literally no other reason.

[@coryharasha]

@@StuntpilootStef I disagree that he has no rational basis as it can be rational to believe in one's feeling as containing more comprehensive data than can be analyzed consciously. For example, animals lack rationality but have the feelings necessary to survive in many environments that humans would struggle to survive with reason alone. They are "guessing" in a sense of the word, but their guesses seem to work really well. Similarly, I'm not sure atheism is sustainable evolutionarily. The religious guess so to speak seems to be very powerful for leveraging feelings to motivate survival and cooperation especially in times of great suffering where the less connected to feelings may opt for solutions such as suicide or anti-natalism. Reason minus feeling has the end of death because feelings are the reason to live.

[@StuntpilootStef]

@@coryharasha He's not using a fight or flight response to guess his way to an answer, he's purely using what he wants the world to be. Maybe he's born with it, maybe it's make believe. And you're right, make believe is very handy. If you think a tiger is going to eat you and run away you don't die for being wrong. False positives are not punished, while false negatives are.Luckily, we don't live in a world where we're constantly being attacked by tigers anymore, so your example isn't applicable. It's also fucking insulting to suggest atheists are unable to cooperate or will kill themselves in times of strife. But please, don't use such convoluted words to say simple things, you're not fooling anybody. Just talk like a human being.

[@simonjonasmusic8410]

Outstanding. It's really a joy to see such a respectful conversation between two persons with vastly different backgrounds. Thank you for posting this

[@terrinbertholf9262]

What a fantastic interview. I love the respect and thoughtfulness of both Alex and Robert to discuss and work through tough questions together. We need more of this.

[@Lerian_V]

Bishop Barron gave Alex a shoutout at a recent Heritage Foundation Lecture speech.

[@supme7558]

Gross

[@michaelbrickley2443]

Amen….people need to be challenged. People need to be tested and He certainly does that, allows, perhaps, actually is instrumental in our testing. Shalom😊

[@fromthemasses_tothemasses]

Ugh Heritage Foundation?

[@tommore3263]

Bishop Barron for Pope. Deep ,deep thinker who arrives at answers.

[@lindsayhickman9604]

Here Here!!

[@carpediem5232]

@@JudeMalachi Why are elections held for the pope at all if it comes down to Gods will? Why not just roll dice, draw lots etc.?

[@andrewlamb3585]

AGREED, AMEN.

[@brycebensing]

@@carpediem5232 cardinal can mean pivotal (note how also this word's base is pivot), important, but it's base origin in latin means hinge, a pivot. where something turns (cardinalis). The cardinals are the hinge/pivot with which the direction of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit (which is God, not just a part of Him) turn towards to, by the election of the successor of St. Peter.

[@carpediem5232]

@@brycebensing Yeah seems convenient, that the way a pope is chosen again seems to be 100% explicable by human behavior and actions. How for example can people be petty sure that the next pope will be African? These assumptions are based on geopolitics not any insight into Gods mind. I am aware of church structure and know Latin (from school and university), but instead of a"sign" by God given plausible deniability the process of choosing a pope falls onto over the centuries often blatantly corrupt human actors. Are you suggesting that the holy spirit also was corrupt in the instances where clear corruption can be documented? Or do you have a cop out, like "the holy spirit was on vacation in summer 1492".

[@blumusik9572]

I listened to your original debate with Bishop Barron and appreciate your willingness to delve into these very deep questions. I was so touched by the fact that you revealed you were raised Catholic, rosary and all. This discussion was even better in particular around finding objective meaning and final causality. Loved it!

[@Brandon-vg7pl]

Man im enjoying this debate/conversation. Im glad us atheists have Alex to articulate our thoughts and doubts. I love that hes respectful and not aggressive. BB is a phenomenal person and a perfect person to have this conversation. Loved every bit of this.

[@philsurfmoresinclair9297]

The gentle and seemingly obvious deep respect shown toward each other is perhaps the most beautiful lesson that one receives regardless of the wide polarity of views. Thankyou both.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I agree with you. I try to be respectful and non confrontational in my comments with people of different beliefs ( such as Muslims ) and atheists too. One reason is because I don't know it all !

[@hunter_lite]

Absolutely. The evangelical fundamentalist sector has poisoned the well here for many nonbelievers (too busy packing for the rapture to read much?). We should not forget that there are many Christian humanists and responsible deep-thinking religious folk. They get overlooked frequently as they don't make as much noise.

[@johnd.shultz7423]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 obviously you do "know" jesus was ressurrected from death on a cross,plus i would find it difficult to listen to a representative of a religion(the catholic church) rife with pedophiles and their protectors, as childrens lives mean much More to me than "civil discourse"...

[@supme7558]

Asif he even comes close to alex

[@supme7558]

​@@hunter_liteas they should they dont add anything

[@peterhardie4151]

I am not an atheist or a Christian but I like these two talking to each other.

[@theflyingspaget]

Do you follow one of the other theistic faiths?

[@1mjourney]

HI Alex, thank you for sharing this podcast. Enjoyed it very much. It is interesting to watch you evolve over the years. Many Blessings to you and your loved ones. May you find your peace.

[@pyotr94]

Alex has to be one of the only atheists who can, without arrogance, have a genuine conversation with a theist with an open mind.

[@tommore3263]

I studied western philosophy and the case for God at a good university and I believe , am convinced that Bishop Barron with his philosophical ground in western realism is exactly right in his understanding. It really is possible to show the existence of God from evidence, like change, and sound arguments. And I enjoy Alex's respectful engagement. I anticipate that Alex will come to see that his concern for animal suffering which is a very real thing, will come to see that it is the essential goodness of reality that affirms that deep ground of being Who calls us to appreciate goodness, beauty and truth. This really does require the reasoned answer of monotheism. I also found Catholicism to be solid as a rock as Christ founded His church and this despite any human failings of members which will of course always be there to some degree.

[@Darth_Vader258]

God is LOVE ❤️, and He LOVES both Animals and Humans. So when we go to Heaven, we will see our pets in Heaven.

[@BlacksmithTWD]

Why can't it be a reasoned answer of polytheism?

[@tommore3263]

@@BlacksmithTWD Hi. The unity of experience and existence mitigates against many 'gods' as they would all have to be united in existence by something like the God of monotheism. In like manner deism has a wrong outlook on causation or intelligibility. Ed Feser does a very good job really answering the God question, and it really is something you can actually know for sure on the evidence alone. The argument for monotheism has never been refuted and it predates even Plato. Its the most important question and the most important answer obviously to get right. Here's a link to Prof Feser giving a quick summary of the argument. Its solid. But take your time and be sure you understand as you delve into it and be demanding. I sure was and I wasn't disappointed . The lights went on in the universe. Cheers and good luck kzbin.info/www/bejne/kGazm5yJZrJ9g5o kzbin.info/www/bejne/apSvfmOEZZVlras

[@trafficjon400]

@@Darth_Vader258 Is darths son going

[@rudysimoens570]

There is not a shred of evidence for the existence of ANY god or Allah or whatever name they gave to their non-existing celestial dictator! Since evolution is proven to be a fact beyond a shadow of a doubt we know that we are nothing but a species of apes nothing more nothing less so ALL religions and ALL their stupid and often cruel doctrines can ALL be thrown right in the trash! And what a stupid and cruel christian doctrine anyway! Here we have an of course non-existing God who after waiting more than two hundred thousand years since the Homo sapiens came into existence finally decided to reveal himself to all humanity of the whole world and to forgive all our imaginary "sins" by killing his son. Couldn't "he" just forgive our imaginary sins without having to kill his son? After all he is supposed to be "almighty" so that could not have been a hard problem for "him"! And why kill his son if he was already planning to resurrect him anyway? So Jesus just had a bad weekend! Can it be more stupid? And at what time was the non-existing "soul" "blown" in the head? Was it in the head of the common ancestor of the Homo sapiens, the bonobos and the chimpanzees? Or was it in one of the many hominids that existed? We still carry a small amount of the DNA of some hominid species in our genome!!! But let's settle the argument forever! Call Jesus back and let him perform all his so-called "miracles" in a lab under scientifically controled circumstances. That can't be too hard to do since he is resurrected so he is still alive and he probably lives somewhere on a planet in another Galaxy!

[@E-Biz]

As a believer, I really appreciate this open discussion. You are asking the right kind of questions with just the right amount of pushback allowing Barron to give a thoughtful opinion or explanation. I've learned a few things about Catholicism that I haven't even learned on Barron's channel. Cheers!

[@t.d6379]

All you need to know is it is the one true church founded by Jesus on Saint Peter. Fact.

[@niraulaj]

Wow! So amazing to see The brilliant young mind and not so young wise mind in a sincere dialogue. This kind of dialogue and not discussion is needed where there is mutual respect for each others world view and belief. Thanks for giving this beautiful hour of my life. Looking forward to such conversations.

[@Camalonious]

Great conversation, Alex. Thanks to you and Bishop Baron for sharing.

[@Venaloid]

24:18 - Robert might as well be arguing that fishes' feeding behaviors could not have evolved because sometimes that behavior causes them to bite baited hooks and get themselves killed.

[@thescoobymike]

Facts

[@ninjanarwhal4488]

that logic doesn't follow

[@YLLPal]

​@@ninjanarwhal4488 exactly, that's the point

[@bobjoneswof]

That is not comparable.

[@silberwolfSR71]

If you think that argument is analogous you've misunderstood his point (or maybe I have). He's not arguing that sacrifice couldn't possibly be behavior evolved through natural selection because one particular act of sacrifice has a negative effect on the propagation of that particular individual's genes. Rather, he seems to appeal to the intuition that such an act of sacrifice, while perhaps having its roots in evolutionary social adaptations, is more than just a direct mechanistic result of the evolutionary process. To add a bit more grounding for this intuition, I would argue that the act of sacrifice is in this case not at all aligned with base instincts. In fact it is in direct opposition to the very strong instinct for survival. My reading of the event is that it was neither an ingrained reflex nor a calculated strategy for maximizing some sort of genetic advantage. The main motivating factor in the decision to sacrifice himself was the belief that it was the "right" thing to do. It is an act towards a pure ideal rather than a pragmatic, adapted response. Not only is explaining it purely in terms of biological rules not doing the act justice, but it also misses part of the picture, it's not a full explanation. All that being said, I think that the evolutionary pressures at the base of all this may not be sufficient, but still necessary. If not for the need to live and cooperate in social groups, would we have evolved the ability to feel empathy? And without empathy, are we confident that we would have arrived at the same general moral scaffolding that we find ourselves with? Where sacrificing yourself for someone else is considered "good"?

[@anneturner2759]

Looking at this again …. Honestly I could listen endlessly. Pretty please ….keep these magnificent discussions coming. Thanks to you both.

[@VirgoBirrane]

Fantastic dialogue. Alex asking the right questions and Bishop Barron offering poetic and learned answers. Please have another back and forth in the future together

[@snokehusk223]

Good conversation. Bishop Barron is a good priest. God bless you.

[@TheUltraGamer98]

Coming up next in a community post from Alex: "I've been incorporating some religion in my life. Mostly but not exclusively, catholism"

[@GrrMania]

hahaha 😂

[@smilloww2095]

😭😭

[@Noise_floorxx]

Yeah you got the ego portion right since you seem to imply that you know better about how he should care for his health

[@chrismcgowan5180]

@@Noise_floorxx we are just thing stars are made of. But to the point..he probably knows more than Alex about his health

[@xyzmediaandentertainment8313]

In 3 years time Alex will be meat loving, patriotic, Bible thumping, gun toting Texan 😂

[@BloggerMusicMan]

I love this conversation so much. Both people involved clearly like each other and want to build on top of each other, even where they disagree.

[@richardbloemenkamp8532]

I'm not a christian, but bishop Barron is a great person. Also Alex did a great respectful interview keeping the right balance between too shy and too aggressive.

[@joshuathomas512]

Yes more podcasts incoming! Something great to listen to on the commute, can't wait for more from this madlad

[@Xaeveax]

Love the idea of weekly podcasts.

[@AwakenedMan]

This is such a good listen. Despite BB and Alex coming from very different starting points, you get the feeling BB values his time speaking to Alex, almost like a father and son

[@almasakic1148]

yeah you can see it in Alex's eyes that he loves BB

[@drrickmarshall1191]

Alex being a more than respectful father.

[@Olivier1]

Beautiful and enlightening. Loved the objectivity and effort coming from each side.

[@Inertiafivezero]

I often feel like theologians kinda steal something precious from us - from humanity itself - when they claim that the most beautiful things we do somehow transcends us and has some divine and sublime source. I want to be kind, loving and supportive to others around me so that my ideals, my very being, might resonate and echo within my fellow humans after I'm gone. Leaving a mark, even if a small one, motivates me to get up in the morning. Sure, time will come when the last ever living being will die and one might look back and ask - what was the point? A few more laughs than there would have been. That is fine by me. Maybe we live in a superdeterministic block universe and all those moments are permanent, as real as the present is now.

[@pat1442]

Maybe the Bishop is talking about your romantization of your desires is a sign of your desire for transcendent goodness, but you cant cope with the idea of the goodness being self sacrifice so you romanticize your desires to fill that hole, but the romantization is a function of the very desires themselves. Maybe you are all twisted up in a circle of your desires. Maybe the Bishop is trying to break you from this twisted mess by helping you realize it's a twisted self contradictory circular mess, and show how your desire to romanticize your desires need not be an inward navel gazing, but instead in reference to something outside of your desires and infact precisely contrary to them.

[@lelrond]

​@@pat1442The way that your comment is written makes it extremely hard to understand. I would like for you to step back from arguing your position for a second and reread the original comment. Notice that they were not making an argument, they were describing the way they feel about your kind of argumentation. Do you believe that by repeating that exact kind of argumentation they will be convinced?

[@Lerian_V]

In other words, we have natural desire to continue to live albeit in a different form of existence after our physical death. I have noticed that in attempting to hold off the idea of a transcendent reality for which we are naturally wired, atheists (materialists) end up presupposing same. Our innate wiring to naturally desire and live for the transcendent seems to me very obvious.

[@sirrevzalot]

@@Lerian_V You’re full of it, dude. Atheism has nothing to say about materialism, so that’s completely wrong. As you’ve not defined transcendent nor demonstrated a transcendent, your comment is simply naked intuition with a garnish of distaste for others you don’t understand. It’s frankly masturbatory. Please go learn about what you’re determined to argue against before spewing bile.

[@sassychimpanzee7431]

If I may ask, why do you care about having your ideals and your being marked on the world, if ultimately there is no transcendent meaning or value? Chances are, you'll die and your name will be forgotten within a few generations, if that. Can you tell me the name of your great great great grandparents? Probably not - most people can't. For me personally, I could never be motivated by the concept of "leaving a mark" on the world. Of all of the billions of humans that have lived, how many are remembered?

[@theologyofthebody2870]

God bless you Alex! You’re heart seeks Bishop Barron Preach!

[@mikemallett64]

That was an awesome discussion and proof that an atheist and a Christian can have a thoughtful and polite exchange of ideas. Kudos to you Alex and it seemed like a light bulb went off above your head at the end of the discussion when talking about the nature of God. Good luck to you in your search for TRUTH.

[@ac1646]

Alex created this KZbin channel to have awesome discussions.

[@Plumsouffle]

Fascinating use of incredulity as argument. Great conversation, Alex. Thank you.

[@rustin6830]

I enjoyed the conversation very much! 💙 Thank you both

[@nannakurzhaar]

what a deep discussion! I admire the pace... I can follow and think through it but I need to watch it several times usually .... very nice video 🥰

[@gatblau1]

As an artist who is also an atheist, the inescapable specter of death is indeed a motivating factor for my creation of art. My art explores and questions consciousness and meaning, which is definitely linked to my atheism. I do create art to leave a trace of my having existed in this world.

[@theboombody]

For about 99% of us, that trace will be undetectable in less than a century after we're gone. Most of us today know the work of maybe 30 to 50 people who lived 100 years ago. That number shrinks even more if you go back 500 years.

[@MrCmon113]

In that case you should bury something under the moon's surface, there with no tectonic activity it will be retrievable for a very long time.

[@lemonwatersalt]

But ultimately your works will cease to exist.

[@scoobydont77]

@@theboombody all the above are correct but that doesn't do a damn to stop the pursuit of remembrance. in my opinion this pursuit is noble even in the face of insurmountable odds. also I doubt OP doesn't already know this.

[@stefans.466]

Why leave a trace that inevitable will die? Even Ceasar will be forgotten.

[@esperthebard]

This was a fantastic conversation, thank you!

[@JohnPatrickWeiss]

Lovely and thoughtful conversation, thank you

[@KrollRebuke]

Very nice discussion. Keep this up, please! In regards to the discussion about the foundation or the root of meaning and how the bishop couldn't buy an evolutionary root motivation for Shakespeares work. To me, I would have talked about how Shakespeare wasn't motivated by the evolutionary ROOT motivation. i would say he was motivated by the steps that build from that root motivation. The levels that are built upon the root have their own complexity and allow for new values/motivations to branch off of the higher levels of motivation. We need to find and have food to live, so now that i care about my food I can start to value different types of food and different expuriences with it. Now that i have all this value invested in food, then i use it to display care to others or as a setting for formally meeting someone and establishing good will. Then I have ideas about how to specifically do a meal for someone that will generate goodwill. I haven't developed SPECIFIC traditions/values about how prepare a meal for someone because i need food to survive (just give them whatever and they'll be happy because food is food right?) I am motivated to do things a specific way because of the values I have built apon "i need food to survive" He says its so reductionist to say i did art because I'm motivated to survive etc, and i think i agree! But i don't need to say "i did art because evolution" I think I would say "the values that motivated art can be rooted back to evolution etc" P.s. i found it kinda amusing that after alex discussed motivation coming from a desire for your work to last the Bishop spoke about the permanence of God and the spiritual which seems to perfectly fall into being motivated to do things you think will last. I spent my life in pursuit of the everlasting transendance of god? Whats more lasting than forever? I also found the way he dismissed the idea of we care about making things that last very black and white... you don't need a thing to last literally forever for it to be motivating. Alex said outlast themselves not last forever or anything, we still know it will decay some time in alexs framework Thanks for reading! 😅

[@leonais1]

Shakespeare is essentially a 'complexity needs a creator' argument. Art works of complex emotional depth cannot arise from thousands of years or oral and written storytelling that analyze the human condition with increasing insight. This claim for God seems suspect immediately when we consider the old 'an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite numbers of typewriters will eventually write the works of Shakespeare'. Dawkins would say that after Darwin we no longer need to look for creator whenever we find complexity, yet the Bishop still asks us to do that.

[@FartPanther]

When "the world" got information transfer through DNA, we got incredible complexity. When "the world" got information transfer in brains we got another explosion in creativity diversity and behaviour, when we got information transfer through writing and art and physical records of thoughts from brains, again, a very *CREDIBLE* explosion and interative increase in the apparently unexplainable beauty that he describes. The person who mentioned the rainbow says his stance perfectly. His feelings are diminished though understanding, he is a hedonist of intellectual ignorance, delighting in the unknown, reveling in the rejection of something so mundane as a plausible explanation It's so dumb to think "I find something so beautiful it defies explanation" whilst ignoring this: the fact that he finds it so inspirational is motivation enough for a human to create it (to inspire awe and entertain) the feeling itself can have a mundane explanation, one that does not have to feel intuitively right or to compare in its grandness to the feeling of awe and wonder. like how taste and appetite increasing survivability (obvious) leading to Micheline star chefs (convoluted but not "stretching it").

[@Akash_Vegan]

​@@FartPanther Fantastic

[@KrollRebuke]

@Matthew C well said, my friend. 😎👍

[@etherealstars5766]

​@@FartPanther Beautifully written. I had a similar consideration when on my balcony looking up at the stars, imagining the universe's vastness. I felt a deep sense of awe. Then the thought came to consider that my sense of awe was not a reflection that the universe itself is in some way objectively awesome or beautiful. Rather, my sense of awe was a subjective reaction of my brain to something large, complex, and mysterious. The same would be true if I found the love of my life beautiful. She wouldn't be objectively beautiful. Instead my mind would create this recognition of beauty and feelings of attraction, later turning into love. At first, this seemed deeply troubling. If there is no such thing as objective beauty, awe, love, etc. then why should it matter? But indeed this is ALL that matters. It is in this SHARED world of subjective values that we humans share emotions, morals, and all meaning. This is what evolution has given us: Emotions that arise in different scenarios which fuel us to actions that, in turn, give us further, deeper emotions and experiences which we can share with others.

[@henryspragge]

Fantastic conversation! Love the approach you are taking. Debates are great, but I feel like they often stifle conversation more than they are conducive to its production. This discussion approach is very easy to follow, natural, and leaves me much more thoughtful and less closed off in my mind. Keep it up Alex!

[@johnbrion4565]

Just found this channel. Never knew about Alex before but now I’m subscribed. I really enjoyed your questions and can really tell you just want to seek the truth. Very beautiful conversation. Thanks.

[@Toothbrush732]

I'm not religious, and I don't think I agree with much of what the bishop was saying. But I really enjoyed this interview. It's made me think about things I haven't before and it was a good exploration of ideas. Keen to listen to more episodes of this "new" podcast.

[@roberthellebush8775]

This is an excellent discussion and you, Alex, are a uniquely talented interviewer. You draw the deep from your guests and you avoid confrontation. This arises out of your talent for listening to your guest (or opponent). Please keep going forward...

[@donaldnavatto9890]

Thank you to both of you for this interesting conversation. You asked very thoughtful questions and Bishop Baron is eloquent in his answers. I enjoyed every minute of this podcast.

[@maverick7291]

Both have been great in expressing their thoughts in a clear and polite way. Both being nice at listening each other and waiting their turn.

[@scottlott3794]

I really enjoy Bishop Barron, I think he's an honest, intelligent person with integrity. Thanks for having him on, would be very interesting if you both were the podcast host and intereviewed people from your different perspectives.

[@merynor1]

Very meaningful conversation. Bishop Barron expound it clearly and meaningfully. Love this discussion.

[@sethfreeman1845]

We’ll done, Alex! An excellent conversation. Keep up the fine work.

[@tiotavopregunta502]

Awesome and respectful conversation,well done.

[@TorqueBow]

I have watched this 3 different times. I am a Christian. I have been profoundly moved by this conversation. Thank you.

[@jamessaltlife]

Nice to see you back man

[@zanecote]

As a Catholic myself I found this conversation to be excellent!!! I loved the questions and the responses. I myself feel like I learned A lot

[@rachelboccio2717]

Alex, I am a huge fan of Bishop Barron. But I came away also a fan of you. Wonderful interview! Thank you for your honest inquiry and thoughtful, challenging questions.

[@schnabelite]

32:15 - 1:03:22 spiritual aliveness... that metaphor is so damn beautiful! thank you sincerely for the interview.

[@iwillquietlyresist6922]

26 minutes in, and boy am i glad I'm not playing a drinking game based on how often the bishop dismisses a point by appealing to personal incredulity. I'd be dead by now.

[@FartPanther]

Not only does he dismiss but he thinks he's *making* convincing points through appeals to *personal* incredulity. He is seeming unaware that other opinions have as much relation to truth and his own. By definition your own opinion feels convincing, it takes humility to hold it gently. The truth is like love, the harder you grasp the more it slips away. The sceptical scientific method of enquiry allows people to make verifiable predictions with tremendous accuracy unrivalled by other methods. I would suggest the success shows it is our best method to get to what is true. Scientific realism is a philosophical standpoint that suggest the our best scientific theories at least in part describe reality. I call it humility, but Socrates said it best and it's core to the scientific method. How do you know that? Could there be an alternative explanation Long and short, bishop sure of himself, science makes humble claims, bishop probably wrong, scientific approaching being right about shit tons.

[@Zahlenteufel1]

Same goes for the assumptions he makes implicitly and baggage he takes on for no reason other than his emotions. What kind of argument is "I feel you have insulted this concept"??

[@zapkvr0101]

​@@FartPantherinquiry

[@zapkvr0101]

​@@FartPantherand theories have predictive ability

[@mariequinlan]

Thank you Bishop Barron. Your teaching with hope along with reason is very insightful and makes me want to learn more.

[@alexanderhamilton6370]

At 29:25 Barron calls Cosmic Skeptic out, saying he doesn't think he (CS) even believes his own assertions. And you can see a profound smile appear on CS's face which he then quickly tries to wrestle away and put his serious, analytical mask back on. And I think that plucked a certain chord with CS, whether he wanted it to or not. I don't mean it was a gotcha moment or that CS looked guilty. But it still felt like Barron had called out a behavior which even CS couldn't physically/biologically deny. Whether or not God exists isn't the point. That we all ultimately behave, at points, as if there is a God is.

[@MrCmon113]

>Whether or not God exists isn't the point. Yes it is. >That we all ultimately behave, at points, as if there is a God is. That and the atrocious consequences of it are only being justified by the existence of that god. Keeping people from clinging on to delusions is central to keeping them from committing atrocities.

[@markwilliams3679]

Up next: alex converts to Catholicism, jokes aside I really enjoyed you and bishop baron, you should do one with Matt frad from pints with Aquinas next.

[@lucianajera8214]

The bishop put all the doubts I held about Christianity throughout my whole life (being a Christian/raised as one) into the proper perspective. I’ve felt reactive to religion for practically my whole life because of this deeply flawed perspective under which most of Christians and non Christians are raised when it comes to God and basic Christianity. The moment I was brought into the true meaning and value of Christianity and was given the opportunity to experience the love and compassion of God, and how this experience impacts on other people lives, that’s when I actually began to feel drawn to experiencing God and living in accordance to Christian values. It’s really hard to accept and embrace religion when you’re constantly given this idea that God is some sort of entity the arbitrarily wants to control you and make you blindly surrender to it. I’m so glad to have come across this video. Such a beautiful debate with really interesting questions, while deeply insightful. We need more Christian and atheist speakers like this, willing to have open conversations with such humility and grace.

[@noorzanayasmin7806]

I have always tried to live righteous life my whole life but as I accepted Jesus it makes me want to act rightly more. Like I feel this calling inside of me to do better regardless of the circumtances.

[@Irtechie]

As a Catholic, I follow the Logos. The Christianity that Protestants tend to push towards breaks the third commandment in my mind. "Do not speak nonsense in God's name" as it pushes others away from God. They seem to follow Augustine, but then forget his teachings "When Christians say things others know just aren't true, it makes us all look like fools", I put this at the feet of the creationists. To be fair the Marxist push is to make all of religion look bad, so they tend to only promote what I consider fringe Christianity. So they can point to those on the Fringe and try to get the religious to be silent. Hence why I believe so much focus has been given to 'bad teachers' as Barron put it here.

Great conversation! Thank you!

[@paulamoses408]

Wonderful conversation!

[@lyterman]

I don't know if this means much to you, Alex, but God bless you. If there is such an atheist who is truly, genuinely following his conscience, I think he would look like you. May we be united in Truth one day.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

Very respectful attitude and comforting for me to read. So many of the comments call a belief in God as "nonsense" and other unrepeatable words. I also try to respect Atheists and I wish they would show respect to believers. God bless you too. I appreciate your comments.

[@lyterman]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 And may God bless you and grant you peace, John.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

​@@lyterman Thanks. Keep me in prayer sometimes as I struggle with doubts and lack of confidence. Peace from Florida.

[@wet-read]

​@@johnbrzykcy3076 Doubts (about faith) are good. And I go after meaty things that could, for those with faith, fill in gaps left by a sudden absence of it. If you're interested 😊

[@pointbreak8646]

​@@johnbrzykcy3076 as people that believe in a god can't prove it exists in any way I'd say it is nonsense

[@johannaquinones7473]

I loved this conversation❤

[@benjiejohn]

What a rocking interview (kept rocking me back in my heels)!!! Great pair you two.

[@oscarlopezjr3]

He seems a lot more calm speaking with Bishop Barron this time around. Great questions by Alex. This conversation is packed with wisdom.

[@EnglishMike]

Alex didn't notice he caught the Bishop in a contradiction. When Alex said it should be up to him whom he forgives, the Bishop said that since God is also offended (sinned) against, he has the right to do so. But later, when they were discussing God as a dictator, he dismisses the idea that God is offended by what people think and do. But if God not offended, then why does he need to forgive me?

[@skepticusmaximus184]

Good catch. A lovely goalposts on wheels moment right there. 😉👍

[@StJoanGuideMe]

I think you're misunderstanding the nature of sin and grace here, friend

[@EnglishMike]

@@StJoanGuideMe If sin doesn't cause God offense, then why do we need to beg for forgiveness from him?

[@skepticusmaximus184]

@@StJoanGuideMe And I think you're full of shit. Either God is offended by what humans do or he isn't. It's one or the other. Now what's too understand other than a blatant contradiction is on display here, in full view?

[@newme1589]

I dont know if they use the word "offense", havent reached that part in the video, and im not religious ... But from what i learned is that, you asking forgiveness of God is for "God to be happy", is for you to show that YOU know what you did is wrong. If you want to substitute "forgiveness" for "i know i did something wrong", i believe its fine. Can be related to the idea of punishment, where if you do something wrong you to hell, so by asking forgiveness, you go to heaven (over simplification of the process). So God is not "grinding his teeth if you don't go to church" (Christian God), its more like "you know the rules son, if you don't go to church, you suffer a punishment. If you honestly repent, it means you will do better, thus no punishment needed". You can argue if "punishment" is the best tool here. In Christianity, Adam and Eve following Satan into eating from the tree of knowledge is the ultimate rebellion against God, thats why you hear that Jesus had to die for our sins. God gave us freedom of choice, and we screwed up big time. You can also see there maybe why "forgiveness" is applicable !

[@anneturner2759]

Thoroughly enjoyed the soul food. Thank you both . I love these spirited talks, very interesting to see the two deep souls talking to one another.

[@scottscheper]

This is such a fantastic dialogue. Thanks Alex. And I also like the new brand.

[@douglasdeng7493]

Very inspirational! As someone who has decided to get baptized around 1 month later, thank you for deepening my understanding of faith.

[@FrankBott]

your format gave me a chance to listen.. and ponder thoughts.. there was time to think and reflect and not feel any negative combative energy. thank you.

[@miguelito6031]

I hope both atheists and theists get to ask more questions about their beliefs. Thanks for sharing this, Alex! What a great upload

[@jedibane]

I like the rebrand. I’m loving these conversations. You are one of the best in the discussion business

[@danielandrews7561]

Excellent discussion! Epiphany dense! Thank you both!

[@lujkeaaron9100]

Alex is a bona-fide genius. Barron is even more impressive to me. Thanks guys.

[@JopingusBloggStudios]

Why do I have to write my bachelors thesis right now? I'd rather watch this discussion, it must be gold.

[@kattihatt]

Humblebrag.

[@noname19816]

lol, same except that I'm writing my postgrad thesis.

[@kattihatt]

@@noname19816 brag.

[@noname19816]

@@kattihatt indeed

[@mikolmisol6258]

What's your topic, if you don't mind telling me?

[@micky3r]

I am in love with Alex's logical arguments in this debate😍 enjoyed this podcast a lot!

[@ChrisOgunlowo]

The two of you are the finest communicators on these heavy subjects. I enjoyed this deeply.