The Books Banned From the Bible: What Are the Gnostic Gospels?

[@mymom1462]

Glad to see you get actual Gnostics on here. This is a reminder to all: The Early Gnostics did not call themselves 'Gnostics' they considered themselves Christians and simply disagreed with the orthodoxy. According to the Apocrypha of John, the main Tragedy in the Gnostic Creation myth was Sophia (a child of the Original God) birthing the Demiurge (aka Yaldabaoth) without the consent of the original God. This was the tragedy instead of eating from the apple. I reccomend ESOTERICA as an introduction to the whole concepts its pretty interesting. 😊

[@japexican007]

I recommended the video on my playlist “wake up this world is an illusion” titled Dualism: the Illuminati Religion, I pray you wake up from the lowercase god if this world who blinds those who believe not

[@NiazRaki]

Fascinating

[@rimbusjift7575]

Memory is finite. Save space for relevant matters.

[@bubbag8895]

Not a fan of Gnosticism, but it does have some interesting tidbits imo

[@tangimeme]

​@@rimbusjift7575 how do you know/judge what's relevant or not, especially considering you can't possibly know what will or won't be relevant in your future with any real certainty at all? I'm 100% sure you don't have a memory full of only "relevant" or utilitarian memories lol. Your comment is basically a roundabout way to do whataboutism and express that you don't care about this lol. It's very transparent, brother 😅 Let people enjoy the things they wanna enjoy instead of moralising and judging to make yourself feel special and smart 🤷‍♀️ The things you care about and think are important are just as accurate/inaccurate, meaningful/meaningless, and relevant/irrelevant as anyone else. You'd have to think pretty highly of yourself or lowly of others to believe otherwise and you should aim to avoid that. Maybe you really are extra special and know more "relevant" stuff than everyone else, but even that wouldn't make it make sense to judge what others want to use their minds for... People are allowed to enjoy things you don't care about and you don't have to let everyone know how you feel about it 🤷‍♀️

[@modernism100]

I so admire Elaine Pagels. A renowened scholar, translator and author, she is willing to sit down with Alex for hours and explore, revisit, explain, and converse. She is centered in her experience and scholarship (and spirituality) yet also has such an open, friendly receptivity. What a great dialogue as was the prior one with the great Justin Sledge. Thank you!

[@RivenRock300]

Your comment proves the point , that's why such perversions of : APOCRYPHA, SEPTUAGINT, Book of Enoch , Westcott and Hort RV and today Nestles text . All came out of Alexandria , Egypt. The Muslims burned most of this trash , but evidently Satan found a way to hide some of it . This Harvard graduate , is typical of what comes out of that school .

[@lidijaroic-7742]

😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊pp😊😊😊😊😊😊😊p😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊p😊😊😊😊ppp😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊p😊pp😊😊😊😊😊😊p😊p😊😊p😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊pp😊ppp😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊p😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊ppppppp😊p😊p0pppp😊😊p😊p😊pp😊😊p😊ppppppppppppppppppppp0ppppppppppppp0ppppp😊pppp0ppppppppppp😊😊😊😊😊ppppšp😊😊😊

[@Macfromwales]

😂 She gets to an actual text and says "yeah I don't want to talk about that" 😂😂😂

[@michaelmcnamara8047]

You had no idea who she was before this

[@RivenRock300]

@@michaelmcnamara8047 if people that are truly saved and remember when and where they were " Born Again " would not give any attention to these GNOSTIC so-called books / gospels. They have their roots in Alexandria, Egypt, and the perverted Manuscripts that are used for all these new translations .

[@CatBahptista]

This lady is EIGHTY ONE YEARS YOUNG as of 2024! Wow, she’s so sharp still. I wish my dad was too 🤍

[@AL_THOMAS_777]

Wisdom is AGELESS !

[@bodhimartina6985]

Oh, you are so right! She found the truth and the passion. I am 80 and our biggest challenge today is that the youth do not believe we have learned anything of value. Jesus honored the elders, but also showed they had to learn his secret teachings. People have many different names for these mysteries now on KZbin channels, but they all arise from these "secret teachings." When we learn them we are filled with love and light and we can make it through the eye of the needle. You can cling to nothing to make it through. Thank you for honoring this woman's wisdom.

[@ryananon779]

I wonder if she takes it in the back door. I'd like to hope so 🥰

[@coop5791]

She is a Chosen One like myself like Hermes trismegistus. We live by laws of the universe not the laws written by man Beast!! We're not here to sell you anything we're just here to Shine the Light

[@coop5791]

You are selling your self I see it somewhat as deviant as you speak of divine power you should know has got nothing to do with religions therefore I call you out demons

[@0ucantstopme034]

What I found pretty cool in this interview was that after nearly 50 yrs. of studying this, Dr. Pagels was excited and animated when discussing things...

[@myhatmygandhi6217]

It would be difficult to study something that long if you weren't interested in it 😂

[@javiermerino7579]

@@myhatmygandhi6217 What about the man who wasted his life studying ant-eaters? :)

[@michaelfetter5413]

If she were honest, she would acknowledge the historicity of these documents is nothing near the canon. Not even close.

[@karekarenohay4432]

@@michaelfetter5413 What do you mean with "historicity"? They are historical documents, that show Christianism was not a monolithic faith in the first two centuries after Christ. Do you think Matthew 27:52, with the dead coming out from their graves just after the crucifixion and visiting Jerusalem, is more "historic" than Gospel of Thomas?

[@michaelfetter5413]

@@karekarenohay4432 Number and consistency of manuscripts also factoring in time from the events. The gnostic "gospels" are literally fanfic of cultists from hundreds of years later than the canon with a tiny number of manuscripts.

[@CindiCares]

Dr. Elaine Pagels!!! You are exquisite in mind, spirit, and beauty! Such an honor to hear your voice and insights. I am grateful for your life's work!

[@Foomando]

Forreal, I wish they had open lectures like this to the public. Scholars should be our grand teachers to let us know about the TRUTH

[@JoAnnChamness-xf8lq]

I met Elaine Pagel in 1995 , she is wonderful. I use to mistake her for two other women in the community college who looked so much like her but their intellect wasn’t even close to our good lady Mrs. Elain PAGEL . .. . . What a Real Treat to listen to her here today . She captivated me back in the 1990’s and now here. Thank you 🙏 for this video .

[@mintonmiller]

I envie you that. There a couple questions I wish I could pose and then just sit quietly listen to her answer.

[@david-pb4bi]

You do realise she is insane?

[@tango7660]

Miracles still abound. This show popped up on my screen and the timing of this information coming to me is almost beyond belief. Not enough space to explain. Elaine Pagels is the most credible and brilliant scholar on the gnostic documents. Thank you for your great presentation!

[@bobbykontje]

I am a Muslim.... And I really really like to listening to Alex's podcasts and interviews. High intellectual with a pleasant voice and gentle but crticial approach.

[@wasimshaikh1665]

Looks like you and I are gonna be roomates in hell.

[@johnniearc]

I'm a guitarist, and football enthusiast and I really like to listen to Alex's podcasts, and interviews too.

[@Leo-tf3rw]

@@johnniearc😂😂

[@johnniearc]

@@Leo-tf3rw I suppose the blind belief in ancient texts creates a smugness that is impervious to self awareness.

[@Leo-tf3rw]

@@johnniearc I always see these types of comments and it’s truly unsettling

[@johnblanco8827]

I attended a prlvate Jesuit college. During a class on New Testament theology the class started debating Genesis with some blaming Eve for our world while others refused to do so. The priest ended the debate by writing The Gnostics on the chalk board and advising us to learn about them. The Jesuits were later decribed to me as the one's following the dark or black pope. That priest later left the Jesuit order in order to get married. It is likely he discovered the Gospel Of Phillip which led him down a different path. He passed away as a spiritual man which opened up to us this different path. Yes back in the 1970s. Later in life I met a pastor from a Disciples Of Christ who simply asked me if I accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior which I replied yes. That pastor said congratulations you are ahead of the 90 percent of people here. Then he finally went on to say thank you we are here for you only if you need us. Spirituality and the gospel of thomas tells me and many others that The Kingdom is inside and outside of each of us. The fact that we have this 80 year old lady talking about this subject is truly a blessing.

[@ionasmith1998]

I wonder how these older people feel about being approached by Alex who is so much younger to talk about their work. They must be so so happy to share their thoughts and feelings in a way they wouldn’t usually.

[@Jacob-py9mx]

Older people love when younger people pick up their work

[@James-ll3jb]

😂

[@TheClosestThingToTimeTravel]

[@kenkaplan3654]

She has talked with Dereck Lambert of Mythvision quite a bit and teaches young students. They're used to it.

[@Koko161081]

She’s a professor of history - she probably has dozens of such discussions in her classes and office with students on a weekly basis.

[@redsoxexpat]

I could listen to this woman for days. So brilliant, yet so down to earth.

[@AngelicaRodriguez33246]

Im hybrid mindset. when you say: Pray like a LOVER NOT LIKE A BEGGARS. The meaning is When you recognize that the Holy Spirit dwells within you, your approach to prayer transforms completely. Instead of viewing prayer as an act of begging for something external, you embrace it as a powerful expression of gratitude and love. This shift allows you to pray with confidence, tapping into the infinite strength and wisdom residing inside you. When you pray like a lover, acknowledging the divine connection within, you cultivate a more profound and personal relationship with the divine. This heartfelt communication redefines worship, turning it into a joyful celebration of what is already present in your life, rather than a desperate plea for change. By aligning your prayers with gratitude and love, you unlock a deeper understanding of your spiritual journey, inspiring others to do the same.

[@rra6033]

This is the approach of Eastern Indic faiths - aka Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism etc. all of which are known as Sanatana Dharma (Eternal religion / Law)

[@AL_THOMAS_777]

"Ye ARE (already) g o d s !" (Jesus) And yes, a LORD is NEVER begging

[@mjsmcd]

Very interesting Angelica

[@skipskiperton4992]

word

[@kevinmccabe9188]

What an incredible conversation. That woman is so learned and fascinating. Great post!

[@StayinBud]

And still so closed minded.

[@WayWalker3]

​@@StayinBud Are you capable of explaining why you think so?

[@sdust251977]

Hmmm. I have a different question, it seems reaching a spiritual level will allow you to teach new things revealed just to you, if this would've been allowed, who would be the judge of saying you can teach your revelations?. It seems a recipe for disaster, just like social media nowadays where anyone without being knowledgeable can say what they please, and have a following. Im not willing to take that gamble with religion because of its fanatic nature. Perhaps was best for the church to do gatekeeping. Idk.

[@karenninascott]

​@@sdust251977you do know if you can trust yourself. I learned the concept of self guidance through Abraham Hicks explanation of the Law of Attraction of our universe.

[@CoolPigeon98]

​@@WayWalker3 She has an obvious bias

[@LeeZa1969]

I was born into a very Catholic family but now 55 and not practicing Catholic. My youngest child went to Baptist and learned the Bible so much more than I. Now as she got older she pulled away from religion but does believe in god/Jesus. She says it to hard to follow everything the church taught because to many missing books. We all have faith in our lord Jesus Christ but fear being steered in a word direction. I personally feel like Baptist teach Bible & Catholic worships. So we call ourselves bathlic combining two faiths. I lost my my oldest daughter and feel her at times but not all the time so I do know we are surrounded with love of god & all those that past that love us. Includes guardian angels if they exist. Lovely lady & so happy we have people with huge faith but looks deeper for more teaching. Must thank her for passing on her knowledge. I’m just gonna have to rewatch many times to comprehend cuz I’m kinda confused

[@juanitaross5492]

So am I, and I'm going to watch again myself. Sorry you lost your daughter. It must be still difficult today.

[@Peachtree12333]

Thank you Alex for having ms pagels on your show. I’ve read all her books and love them all. So enlightening.

[@TheLightSeeker...]

Know thyself... The power of God is within you...

[@pamelabarbato1623]

What does this mean? The power of God is within you?

[@TheLightSeeker...]

@pamelabarbato1623 It's not meant for everyone to understand.

[@hypnopompicstate9910]

​@TheLightSeeker..🙄.

[@TheLightSeeker...]

@@hypnopompicstate9910 😉...

[@TheLightSeeker...]

​@@hypnopompicstate9910😉...

[@chadwood1975]

Mr. O'Connor and Mrs. Dr. Pagels, job well done. Enjoyed your conversation on many levels. It was intellectual, spiritually and emotionally fulfilling.

[@MiraGabriel9]

What a remarkable interview! Thank you so much, Alex! Dr. Pagels is an extraordinary soul - so interesting - and you asked her great questions!

[@Zachary_Setzer]

Having earned my degree in Religious Studies from UNC under Bart Ehrman, among others, it's very odd to hear a scholar dodge questions and say, "I'd prefer not to comment on that," and, "I dont like that [source] very much" every time anything contrary to her poisition is raised. Great interview Alex.

[@joshualavender]

I found that odd, too. She admits to "playing favorites." It's as if she's formed up her own orthodoxy for early Christianity, based on both the Gnostic Gospels and the New Testament. There are places in this video where she doesn't appear to be speaking as a scholar but as a believer, and I wonder whether for her there's any daylight between the two. Strange to see in a foundational interview meant to give us an "overview."

[@newtonswig]

She is against the sensationalisation of the Gnostic gospels. Her position is explicitly against some sources, and has to entail some ignoring of the most obviously wacky of the Dead Sea scrolls.

[@pietervoogt]

I don't mind her moving between believe and scholarship. It adds some personal flavor.

[@Zachary_Setzer]

@@newtonswig Wanting to avoid sensationalizing them is one thing. Denying they contain certain ideas and then hand-waving away evidence to the contrary is something else. Seems like anything she doesn't like isn't "real" gnosticism. It has kind of a "that's not real socialism" feel to it.

[@Zachary_Setzer]

@@pietervoogt Nothing wrong with it until it becomes unclear which hat you're wearing.

[@sweetlasvegassuccess]

Madam you have rare courage and intellectual honesty as you review these texts and add your interpretations. I wish you long life in good health

[@jackleprevost9021]

Absolutely enjoyed that conversation. Mark 4:11 is the underlying proof of the conundrum that we battle. I am honored to find a woman so dedicated to that wisdom. What a marvelous life. We are all one in the light.

[@christophermull]

Thank you for this interview. I've been fascinated with Gnosticism for a couple years now. I was raised Catholic and when I got older, I began to have many questions. The teaching of Christianity never really added up but when I began to study Gnosticism it began to all come together. These teachings tied up a lot of loose ends. It makes it all more believable. Although I don't know if I'll ever have complete faith.

[@metagalaxy-go-the-distance]

They are filled with Greek philosophy which differs from disciples which is mainly based Jewish and old testament

[@dorothy8851]

look up the Essenes. A Jewish sect Jesus was part of. They regarded woman equal to man and had rituals like baptism. Aaron Abke talks about them quite often.

[@jennyt6159]

I was raised Catholic also and also had MANY questions as I got older that nobody could answer. I also found out early to even ask is a sin. So now older and wiser I had to leave the Catholic Church especially with this latest Pope as my soul just felt unease and I needed to step back and search. Ironically this video popped up and I am SO intrigued. Then, I read your comment and felt relief that I am not alone, so thank you!

[@alexdenton6586]

Can you have Jesus on your podcast next time ? I think it would answer a lot of questions

[@alanbregovic8889]

dude has a sword mayb he got arrested

[@alexdenton6586]

@@alanbregovic8889 I do not understand why he is not responding. It is a perfectly valid request.

[@lifethroughromans8295]

​@alexdenton6586 - Jesus is responding. He is on the KZbin channel called "Tom Loud".

[@DilutedH2SO4]

dw lad, i've got him on speed dial. i'll see if he's not too busy with world hunger and all that x

[@zsqu]

it seems pretty intellectually dishonest to criticise his works and teachings without debating or even offering to talk with him.

[@Nellus-dy6rv]

Dr Pagels has an astoundingly fresh mind. What a treat to hear someone speak so clearly and thoughtfully. Thanks Alex

[@jacquelinelucien1572]

I found this discussion extremely fascinating; it resonated with some of my own thoughts about religions and Bible texts. I have listened to it ten times, and each time I go back, I discover another gem. One takeaway: I feel the first trinity is a mother, father, and son, not a father, son, and a spirit.

[@joshua9449]

Read the two chapters they quote from the actual Bible and see how honest they are with the context of the verses they quote. Straight from the father (or mother, who cares? Point is, it’s a spirit) of lies.

[@rahelkamber4839]

I find her contributions so enriching for my Christian faith! And it makes so much sense, that the male disciples thought, that there should not be any female disciples, and that the Roman Catholic Church suppressed the knowledge of female disciples.

[@macelwilson3965]

Mother, father and child

[@johnniearc]

​@@rahelkamber4839you know Elaine doesn't believe the Bible to be true right? 😂

[@chillizora]

Thats a pagan trinity ;) nowhere found in the old testament

[@devilishegg]

I'm only 5 minutes in but I absolutely love the authentic joy Elaine has talking about the findings from 1945. It's so contagious, I love it. :)

[@exsubsailor547]

When you read or listen to the many testimonials of the people who have experienced NDE's this all makes sense. Our orgin is the light, we are all one. Everything is from and part of the light! I thurally enjoyed this video.

[@homeofthefree8656]

Not all NDE’s are the same, and nobody has ever come back from dying. I’ve always found NDE’s being very weak evidence for an afterlife, because NDE’s can also be explained by the fact we are all human. Perhaps when you get close to death your body produces images of white light as your body and brain struggle to survive. I’m not saying I know this is the case but I’m saying that seeing light at the end of life or close to it, does not mean you’re seeing a religious afterlife. It could just mean that, this is the visual experience in your head moments before death. If you want to believe that they are seeing an afterlife that’s fine, but it’s not reasonable evidence that would have to be entirely faith based

[@sandraspidle5972]

Dr Pagel is genuine and careful when she speaks, but, she does reveal truth very easily. Wonderful teaching video, thank you. The Catholic church is full of puzzles, I had to attend a Catholic school and church until 3rd grade.

[@joannware6228]

"Faith only begins when the proposition to which you assent is one that is doubted, or might quite conceivably be doubted, by people of equal intelligence with yourself." -Fr. Ronald Knox from his book, In Soft Garments: Classic Catholic Apologetics

[@bronsonstone725]

Just a brief on “the undivided”, when you still your mind completely (be still and know that I am god) this stillness brings about a transcendent state called samadhi in Sanskrit. While in this state of samadhi, you literally see everything as one, you literally do not see separation, further still, samadhi has layers, if you pass the final layer your body consciousness disappears, you are now beyond space and time, seeing will still happen but from a different level than the eyes, you don’t experience through the body…. Therefore that “undivided” is the state of samadhi…. So be still

[@Rathe6]

I struggle with the lack of time spent on why the original church fathers felt the way they did about these texts. She makes it all feel very arbitrary. It seems apt to subject these texts to some textual criticism and dig in to why they were discarded.

[@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1]

Yeah. These were the Scientologists of their day.

[@MasterofLightning]

There were councils held to bring the people of faith together to decide on what was the truth. The most split opinions were on more vague theological ideas (e.g. is God three persons or three natures - one or three, etc.). Damn-near nobody believed the Gnostic beliefs. Same thing with these "banned" gospels. They weren't banned. They were essentially fan fiction. People always point to the most sane things from the heretical texts while ignoring the completely insane parts that obviously invalidate them. A KZbinr named Wendigoon did a video on them that was really good and entertaining.

[@desireegreen653]

Thank you omg gnosticism is so toxic

[@VincenzoPellerito-fw8oz]

The process of formulating the New Testament into one cohesive canon took over 200 years. There were some prerequisites for a book to be considered for the canon: 1. Apostolic Origin: It needed to be written by an apostle or someone close to an apostle. 2. Orthodox Doctrine: It had to align with the accepted teachings of the Christian faith. 3. Liturgical Use: It had to be widely used in early Christian worship and teaching. 4. Catholicity (Universality): It was accepted by the majority of Christian communities across different regions. This was a long and grueling process of organization and communication in times of harsh persecution and limited resources, especially for the people who were Christians (typically peasants and nomads). 5. Inspiration by the Holy Spirit: It was believed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Gnostic Gospels were excluded because they didn’t meet any of the criteria except for the last one, which is more arguable. They included theological contradictions to the other New Testament scriptures. They were written decades to centuries after any apostles or eyewitnesses of Jesus lived, so we know the Gospels were not written by who they claim to be written by (Thomas, Mary Magdalene, Peter, Philip, Judas, etc.). Also, “Gnostic Christianity” was not a particular sect of Christianity; it was a label given to churches and groups that fell outside of orthodox doctrines and beliefs, so any group that was heretical would be lumped into the Gnostic Christian category. These Gospels aren’t special just because they exist; just like the countless books excluded from the canon, they simply did not meet the necessary criteria to be considered trustworthy, widely accepted, theologically consistent, and effectually canonical.

[@aguspuig6615]

Yeah, it gives me highschool history class vibes. ''Alas! the dogmatic and weak minded preists were upset by such claims! so they did what they knew best, ban the books, burn the heretics...''

[@jojones4685]

I love Elaine Pagels, she's such a well spoken and fascinating scholar

[@clvinn1]

elaine pagels is my hero! i love her books. so glad she's on your channel

[@AKAMustang]

Aww it's heart warming to see her eyes light up when you asked a sensible interesting question.

[@mercy2351]

Dr. Pagels is such an excellent scholar! Wonderful discussion!

[@agrav1233]

Thank you for this interview and introducing me to Elaine Pagels.

[@thomasthomasphilp4393]

In Kerala, India we believe that St. Thomas came to India in AD 52.

[@thomasjoseph1873]

👇🏾What to believe to live eternally 👇🏾 1 Cori 15:1 - 4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you 🌹the gospel which I preached unto you, 🌹which also ye have received, and 🌹wherein ye stand;15:2 🌹By which also ye are saved, 🌹if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.15:3 🌹For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures;15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day ACCORDING to the scriptures: Hello: 👉🏾Secure your Salvation eternally by faith alone, by trusting in Christ Jesus' propitiational death, resurrection and the redemption of sins according to scripture on the Cross at Calvary by the Grace of God alone. Also confess it with your own mouth according to Rom 10:9-11 👉🏾10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Please watch once 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 kzbin.info/www/bejne/hHqxmoOQftmdipIsi=BqBh43pKkIkJ1-GZ For further details: visit 👇🏾 thegateministries.net God in His foreknowledge qualified Paul in advance, and appointed him from heavenlies to be His special ambassador to gentiles like 3:05 Moses to Jews and enabled him to lay foundation of the mystical 'Body of Christ' - the only and living Church -👇🏾👇🏾 1 Cori 3:10 🌹According to the grace of God 🌹which is given 👉🏾unto me, 🌹as a wise masterbuilder, 🌹I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 🌹For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, 🌹which is Jesus Christ. ( formed out of 'redeemed, by the blood of Christ' by believing & trusting in the propitiational death, resurrection of Christ by faith alone by grace of God alone) 👇🏾 1 Cori 3:10 🌹According to the grace of God 🌹which is given unto me, 🌹as a wise masterbuilder, 🌹I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 🌹For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, 🌹which is Jesus Christ. God bless🙏🏾❤️

[@juditrotter5176]

Deepok Chopra included descriptions of his growing up there and the Christian denomination unique in that locale. This was in one of his early books.

[@A_Stereotypical_Heretic]

So it was Thomas and not Christ himself?

[@thomasthomasphilp4393]

@@A_Stereotypical_Heretic We are called Thomas Christians

[@A_Stereotypical_Heretic]

@@thomasthomasphilp4393 I was asking because I believe I have heard of some oral traditions in India that say Christ came and ministered there long after his supposed crucifixion.

[@hedvigkarpati7834]

Jesus did not have some secret teaching that contradicted His public teaching. The secret teaching was just the explanation of His public teaching. That's why immediately after He talks about the knowledge being given only to them, He explains the parable he has just told. He, in my opinion, talked in parables, so only those would understand it, who wanted to understand it. Those who didn't "close their eyes" on purpose. So they would not have the excuse that they didn't hear the truth. They heard the truth, and if they cared to understand it, Jesus would have explained it to them. But their hearts were hardened. Just like today. People's hearts are hardened and they don't want to hear the truth. They rather believe any made up complicated stories and explanations instead of the truth that is much less complicated.

[@Sphere723]

How do you know? He very well could have. It was a common religous practice in the Roman world of the time.

[@hedvigkarpati7834]

@@Sphere723 Just because some people did something, it doesn't mean that everyone did it. And Jesus said elsewhere that "I spoke openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue and in the temple whither the Jews always resort, and in secret have I said nothing" And the fact that He said that they "closed their eyes" means that they did't see the truth because they didn't want to see it, not because Jesus hid it from them. The truth was there before them, and they could have understood it, if they wanted to, but they didn't want to, because their hearts were hardened.

[@ConChristoIIIV]

They have to try to dig for some secret lost text because they can’t get over themselves, when you become saved, accept Jesus as your lord and savior and truly seek him he will reveal the hidden mysteries to you , it’s all there they just can’t see it. I know from experience . One brother wrote a great song about it, “WONDERED SO AIMLESS LIFE FILLED SIN, I WOULDNT LET MY DEAR SAVIOR IN, THEN JESUS CAME LIKE A STRANGER IN THE NIGHT, PRAISE THE LORD I SAW THE LIGHT I SAW THE LIGHT, I SAW THE LIGHT NO MORE DARKNESS NO MORE NIGHT. “ No more darkness , no longer blind to the meanings of the teachings , it’s a simple thing but so hard for the unbeliever to overcome , FAITH IN CHRIST ALONE

[@taylorjams4845]

"In my opinion"

[@VTownGregory]

​@taylorjams4845 Thank you. I saw, as well, he left it out.

[@Kat-Mandu]

This was such a fascinating and informative interview. Thank you for presenting it. ❤

[@senttosiberia]

I always understood the hidden meaning of parables as an idiot or insincere filter. “Who who seeks finds, he who knocks the door opens” Alongside of ... “We have left all to follow You...” Alongside of “It is given to you to know the secret of the kingdom ... but to them I speak in parables.” So the disciples had access to the solutions to the enigmatic parables because they had proven they were sincere and willing to follow... The parables went out to provoke the seekers to seek. But the ones who just wanted to see a rock star ... they got what they wanted.

[@Neognostic-pk5wu]

Spot on. Many maliciously ascribe the idea of secret teachings to some arbitrary exclusive club mentality. If you're open to it's ideas, it's open to you. For everyone else, what was left was Marx's "opiate of the masses".

[@TheWendybird123]

Bingo! The parables teased out the seekers, "those with ears to hear."

[@amosvictor9055]

You're very astute. Most people idolized Jesus instead of following him. Like you said, they wanted a rockstar. They put him on a pedestal and saw him as better than everyone else when his message was: we are all one.

[@Neognostic-pk5wu]

@@amosvictor9055 spot on. My biggest issue with most variants of the faith is they mistook the messenger for the message.

[@anneober9891]

only pure in heart can resist power abuse, able to see with G-d

[@j.paulpepper6110]

Wonderful to see Elaine on the podcast. I’ve been following her work for more than 20 years. Crucial insights on my spiritual journey. Thanks and cheers to you both.

[@James-ll3jb]

"The gnostic gospels don't contradict the canonical gospels"--well that's a lie! She's still trying to convince herself the gnostic gospels are authentic secret teachings of Jesus!!!!!😅😅😅😅😅😅😅

[@jenniferabel2811]

Are you aware of her ever acknowledging/addressing "A Course in Miracles"? I recently discovered it and am thunderstruck by its quality. I noticed similarities to some gnostic teaching, and some of those who study it have referred to it as "Neo-gnostic." Edit: I've reviewed some part of work, on youtube and elsewhere, but I've yet to see any reference to ACIM.

[@James-ll3jb]

@@jenniferabel2811 no

[@boe3421]

Outstanding clarity with this presentation. Thank you! UNDIVIDED, I AM! 😊

[@GnosticInformant]

Amazing interview Alex. Listening while I fly home from Florida.

[@bargledargle7941]

What would you feel if Alex asked a question related to paprika specifically in this interview? Is there any possible way this could be related to paprika in any way without changing the subject?

[@JimMcHugsU]

You have to admit what an excellent job the Roman empire did on rebranding itself into an even more powerful Roman Catholic church.

[@builtbywalsh]

- The Roman Empire never died, it became a church. - The British empire never died, it became a global bank. Wonder what will eventually be said about the U.S.A

[@JoeHaase-m5l]

😢 yes ! What a damn shame ! What a joke 😢

[@kenhixenbaugh]

It'll be a church and a bank​@@builtbywalsh

[@omarkhan1006]

@@builtbywalsh hmm…very interesting. Maybe an overarching LLM (Large Language Model) of God?

[@kelliintexas3575]

The Church was hi-jacked by Rome then the Khazarians.

[@DaveGfrom3]

These books should be taken as seriously as the canonical books. Christians are losing members more and more and the teachings on these books can bring people back. That the kingdom of heaven is within us, that we can all reach Christ consciousness is revolutionary and it resonates with so many people

[@obrien9672]

Christianity is an ideology to control humans running on low vibrations.

[@TronBonneVonne]

Not as many people as you think, and that number is dwindling, which is a great sign that more and more are waking up to the objective reality without God or Jesus. Amen to that.

[@DaveGfrom3]

@@TronBonneVonne we have to accept reality if we are to fix the problem. Numbers are decreasing and this other aspect of Christianity resonates with so many people.

[@Ashamanu7860]

@@DaveGfrom3it’s not about numbers. It’s about the True Word being spread. As long as all had heard the truth. You dare taint the Gospel for mere perception of men. You can’t have read the word and really believe in some secret teaching. Men manipulate the word to draw us close to the evil one. Don’t slip

[@DaveGfrom3]

@@Ashamanu7860 the powers that be have exploited the gospels to make you sheep and even get violent toward anyone that disagrees. That’s not Jesus’ way. And the Gnostic gospels contain teachings from Jesus. Look at the state of the world with Christianity as it’s been. Those books were kept out of the canonical Bible because they thought about the divine powers we all have in our consciousness. God said His name is I am. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within. Be still and know I am the lord. That we can do better than Jesus. I’d rather know all of Jesus’ teachings, not just the ones the pedophilic Catholic Church chooses

[@AlphaQ922]

Elaine Pagels rocked the world of Christianity when her book, the gnostic gospels were published 35 years ago. Most Christians didn’t know that there were other gospels.

[@christopherretallack3243]

One fundamental reason why these early gospels inc the gospel of Magdalene were cast aside, is I believe that they taught Jesus was born to show us God is Love and the love is the way of life; NOT the deviant idea (mostly from Paul & the early Roman Church that Jesus just came to die and save us from our sins - as in the Creed.

[@User-9x52q23-d]

Elaine Pagels is such a legendary scholar! Thank you for exploring her ideas about these early teachings.

[@Fernando-ek8jp]

Imagine a teacher saying: "I'm going to explicitly try and teach a group of students so they don't understand, then select a smaller group to teach them properly" That is different from: "They aren't at the level that would be able to understand, so I have to dumb it down for them to get the basics. You're more advanced so I can go more in depth"

[@RanEncounter]

I get what you are saying and mostly agree, but there is a kernel of truth to the original claim. You cannot teach calculus to the average first grader. You have to start at the basics. And yes you as a teachers have to adapt your teachings to the level of the students even if they are a group. Again I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a kernel of truth in what she is saying. I think she is using this fact as a defense.

[@bobbabai]

Artificially crafted mystery and conspiracy. People love that shit.

[@Fernando-ek8jp]

@@RanEncounter Again, that's different. The claim is that Jesus spoke in ways meant to be misunderstood. Sure, I wouldn't teach calculus to a first grader, I would teach them first grade math that they would understand. The equivalent would be for me to give text math problems to a group of first graders, and then I took aside a handful of them so I could explain how to solve the problems. The "secret" teachings, in the gospels at least, were: Here's a parable that will leave most of the listeners confused (but don't worry, that's on purpose) , but I'll explain it to a few of you.

[@Tom_Fuckery]

@@RanEncounter Or listen to the kid for once when they can say they can see and understand something and not swat away their funny way of describing the answer 4 units ahead of the lesson

[@RanEncounter]

@@Fernando-ek8jp Look you seem to have taken this totally different than what I actually wrote. You seem to be too eager to have a debate. "Again, that's different." Yes that is why I said that there was a kernel of truth in what she said. "The claim is that Jesus spoke in ways meant to be misunderstood." Yes this is the ideas of a person who has for years had to bend their mind to religion to make it make sense. I was just pointing out where this kind of thinking originates and how she does not see it as a problem any more. "The equivalent would be for me to give text math problems to a group of first graders, and then I took aside a handful of them so I could explain how to solve the problems." I literally agreed! Is really a kernel of truth so hard to understand? Do you not understand what I said at all? "The "secret" teachings, in the gospels at least, were: Here's a parable that will leave most of the listeners confused (but don't worry, that's on purpose) , but I'll explain it to a few of you." Yes. I literally agree. Sigh. Do you not understand that how she has in her mind changed the kernel of truth as I said it to what is in the gospels because of her beliefs?

[@this_alec]

“So that they will not understand” reminds me of the paradoxical pointing-out instructions of Zen and Tibetan Dzogchen Buddhism. So fascinating. We have been given such a narrow view of Christianity for thousands of years. In the light of intellectual investigation, something much deeper and (in my opinion) wiser emerges.

[@Fernando-ek8jp]

Which is?

[@this_alec]

@@Fernando-ek8jp An approach to spirituality which is much less preoccupied with doctrine than it is an experiential, integrated way of being in the world. Seeing the Divine as the “ground of being,” the mystery of the universe, rather than a petty God with tribalistic concerns. I think that might have been what Jesus meant by the “Kingdom.” Might just be wishful thinking, though. That being said, these are all very mystical ways of talking about what we know by way of Natural Science. The universe is vast and we are a small part of it. That’s enough for me. :)

[@Fernando-ek8jp]

@@this_alec I may be completely misunderstanding, but the value I get from your response is basically the admission that we can't really be sure about everything so why not just accept that and stop pretending like we do, there's loads to learn out there.

[@this_alec]

@@Fernando-ek8jp Certainly not what I meant :)

[@Fernando-ek8jp]

@@this_alec Then I'm still not understanding what you meant. Maybe you're just applying the principle of speaking in ways explicitly meant to hide their meaning?

[@SuzannePiccirillo-cs3ty]

I read your book many years ago !! I found it very captivating . Goes to show you whomever has the power can invalidate the truth. Thanks for writing the book !!!

[@Rydonattelo]

It's fantastic to see such a fantastic atheist thinker really enjoying discussing Christian history and theology. I was an atheist myself most of my life. Its so wonderful to see that people who don't believe in the supernatural elements still seeing value in the philosophy. That's how I switched teams originally. If you enjoy this you would also enjoy ESOTERICA who Alex had on last week and Filip over at th channel LETS TALK RELIGION that covers mysticism in a similar way to this , especially Sufi mysticism but Christian and Jewish also. I think Alex is absolutely wonderful.

[@BrodieTV]

THE GOAT 🐐 ALEX O’CONNOR BACK AT IT AGAIN, I’ve learned so much from you my man, so grateful you’re around on KZbin. LEGEND 🔥

[@BillyBobs-zz5ol]

And what do u believe ?

[@juanitaross5492]

The goat isn't a good thing in the Bible. Only the sheep will go to heaven So I'm not sure what you mean by her being a goat.

[@899547]

Good to see and hear you again ms Pagels. Thanks again for your work. Without it, I could not finish the work I began years ago. It is now finished.

[@aaroncalloway2898]

I'm sure she's brilliant, but it seems that she is fairly uncritical of the text, even going so far to affirm that the people who produced the texts are those whose name's the text have been given.

[@debblouin]

Yeah, something progressive biblical critics don’t do for the gospels.

[@toonyandfriends1915]

she says so but she probably knows it's just tradition

[@swolejeezy2603]

@@toonyandfriends1915Yeah I think if Alex really pressed her she’d admit she doesn’t actually think Thomas or Philip wrote the gospels attributed to them

[@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1]

Duh. She's only interested in undermining Christianity, not truth

[@swolejeezy2603]

@@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1 She is quite clearly a Christian. I don’t doubt you and her disagree over details but she is a Christian all the same

[@billgates-qi9st]

Thanks mate. Thats cleared up a couple of difficulties i have had recently. One on the demiurge and the other about ressurection. I love Ms Pagels scholarship.

[@b-radp975]

After learning how long ago the book discussed was written, it made more sense about how she expressed her disapproval of the word gnostic. There has been plenty time for her to have grown past her earlier perception and interpretation of the word and how it is used. Excellent and informative video and my thanks and appreciation to you both

[@Julia-hd6ts]

Impressive interview, and was nice to see so much wisdom in a young person, being on par with the older one. Love it ❤

[@Williamsdshs11]

Wow, Elaine Pagels is a beautiful person. Thanks for the introduction to her and her work. You're doing God's work, Mr. O'Connor.

[@vickibarr2327]

The most beautiful books are yet to be written as AUTOBIOGRAPHICS.. THANKS THAT THE THEOSOPHICALS TRANSIT THE NEW PLANETARIANS..BEYOND THE HEBREWS THAT CHILDRENS CHILDREN HAVE BEEN ATTACKED IN THE JERUSALEM OF THE TODAY..JOURNALISM MUST END TWO TEIR MALE MALE ALPHA ADMINISTRATIONS

[@franciyoupierrejean8592]

Great job both of you! Thanks

[@blossom357]

The thumbnail got me hyped for a split second, did Alex get an interview with THE Jesus Christ? lol

[@butter_nut1817]

Doubt it would be his first stop after coming to earth again but you never know

[@Henok-qn6nc]

Lmao

[@eprd313]

​​@@butter_nut1817 he'd most probably be murdered by Evangelicals in the US as soon as he said that they are the new pharisees, but we know no one's coming back from the dead after 2000 years of a failed promise.

[@patrickdeoliveira6434]

​@@butter_nut1817You're right, Lex would get him first

[@tonyarmiger9950]

Like your comment is an interview with THE Alex O'Connor.

[@GnosticInformant]

The Apocryphon of John does in fact have “yaldaboath” who is indicated to be the Demiurge and creator of the material world, mistakenly though, as the real creator was ‘Sophia’. That text is just what Irenaeus claims it to be.

[@jursamaj]

I get a lot of the sense that this woman has just imposed her own views on all of it (as believers are wont to do).

[@middleway100]

@@jursamajI absolutely got the same feeling. To not want to even comment on that side of the texts was disappointing.

[@GnosticInformant]

@@jursamaj not necessarily. The majority of the "gnostic" gospels do in fact align with Paul's 7 authentic epistles and Jesus' parables from the 4 major Gospels. And most of the so called "gnostics" did not think the creator was evil.

[@donnmckee4973]

​@@GnosticInformant "most" is the important part of your comment thats relevant to this comment thread. She seemed to dodge or wave away any mention of such a thing even being in the texts.

[@Orikon25]

@@lambdanebula8473 It would be important to figure out whether Valentinus held these views and interpretations before or after he got passed over as Pope. Forming Valentinianism out of spite for the Church is Irenaeus's viewpoint, who was extremely biased and bitter towards anyone and anything not strictly Church-related. Also, I gotta correct you here, he did not place Sophia as the demiurge. The demiurge is still Yaldabaoth, aka. the Old Testament God, or as Valentinus called him - the Craftsman. Sophia was only responsible for creation of Yaldy and subsequently an attempt to salvage his creation by injecting her wisdom into it, as you said. But as far as I know that's not contrary to what Valentinus taught.

[@34missgreen]

This discourse is truly fascinating 🤗. I thoroughly enjoyed myself.

[@Leaga]

"I'll speak on him in a moment" is a gangster ass way of saying "I cant remember the name right now but I will in a minute." Gotta respect that scholarly confidence.

[@exoplanet11]

Yes, and I"m sure she is kicking herself for forgetting the name of that other scholar. But it is truly remarkable the command of the material this 81 year old scholar has. I'm grateful for her compassion in being willing to share it with us.

[@cwellik805]

I only hope to have the faculties Dr Pagels has in her 80’s. I’m 77 and can relate to very familiar names I suddenly can’t remember at the moment.

[@philm7758]

@@cwellik805 I'm 35 and have the same problem (and same hope) 😅

[@juliekongs4856]

But it’s not necessary to call her out in this, even in a “clever” gangster ass way.

[@sabinadonofrio8863]

This is one awesome lady. Unique in her style and point of view. She wants to cover what she feels is important for us to understand.🎉🎉🎉 Excellent Lady 💝

[@Actuary1776]

She claims the gnostics are misappropriated as believing in a demiurge yet when challenged on that multiple times she dances around and says “I’d rather not comment on that”. Wtf.

[@AudunWangen]

Obviously biased, and she basically admits to that. It's not really what I'm looking for. I'd rather hear from scholars that at least attempt to be objective.

[@Si_Mondo]

@@AudunWangen You won't get that from a Gnostic. Like trying to get truth out of a Freemason....

[@wagnavian]

elaine pagels is a modern gnostic, same heresy that irenaeus and the other church fathers debunked a thousand years ago already

[@Actuary1776]

@@AudunWangen It’s disappointing for sure, she’s supposedly an icon in her field.

[@AudunWangen]

@@Actuary1776 She may have good reasons for ignoring certain parts and acknowledging others, but she's not doing herself any favors not to mention them. I don't know her or her work, but it seemed to me she was more interested in preaching than teaching. Not my cup of tea.

[@Neceros]

🎯 Key points for quick navigation: 00:00 *📚 The term "Gnostic Gospels" is a misnomer; they are better described as early Christian gospels that didn't make it into the New Testament canon.* 02:56 *🕰️ These texts were discovered in 1945, providing access to original writings previously known only through their opponents' criticisms.* 05:12 *🏜️ The texts were found in a cave near an early Egyptian monastery, possibly hidden there after Bishop Athanasius' decree against non-canonical gospels.* 07:42 *🗣️ Unlike the narrative-based canonical gospels, these texts focus on Jesus' secret teachings, similar to how rabbis taught advanced disciples.* 11:36 *🔐 The concept of Jesus having secret teachings is present in the canonical Gospel of Mark, supporting the idea of supplementary, advanced teachings.* 15:20 *🧩 Jesus' use of parables, as described in Mark, was to conceal deeper meanings from the general public while revealing them to his disciples.* 17:47 *📜 The Nag Hammadi library contains diverse texts, including non-Christian writings and even a partial copy of Plato's Republic.* 20:04 *🔄 The Gospel of Thomas contains sayings that are both similar to canonical gospels and unique, more mystical teachings.* 21:40 *🌟 The Gospel of Thomas presents a more pantheistic view, focusing on the divine presence within individuals and the universe.* 24:38 *🤔 The idea of an evil creator god separate from Jesus is not actually present in many of these texts, but rather an interpretation imposed by their critics.* 25:46 *📜 The Treatise on Resurrection interprets Paul's teachings on resurrection as a spiritual transformation rather than a physical resurrection.* 27:33 *🔄 There's a contrast between Paul's view of resurrection as transformation and the synoptic gospels' more physical interpretation.* 29:24 *🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Marcion, an early Christian, believed Paul was the only true apostle and rejected the Old Testament.* 31:54 *🎭 Valentinus, unlike Marcion, was a poet and mystic whose teachings were closer to Jewish mysticism.* 34:13 *📖 The Gospel of Judas presents a different perspective on Jesus and Judas, but is considered less valuable by some scholars.* 36:39 *👩 Some secret gospels include women as disciples, unlike the canonical New Testament texts.* 39:19 *🔤 Language differences in translations can affect the perception of divine figures as masculine or feminine.* 41:52 *🐍 The Testimony of Truth reinterprets the Genesis story, portraying the serpent as a positive figure representing Christ.* 45:31 *🤔 The Gospel of Mary Magdalene presents a different view on sin compared to the Gospel of John.* 47:40 *🌟 Early Gnostics believed in ongoing spiritual revelation, which posed challenges for establishing orthodoxy.* 50:43 *👑 Ignatius of Antioch's writings emphasize absolute authority of bishops, contributing to the consolidation of church power.* 52:29 *🚫 The orthodox church has historically excluded mystical teachings to maintain control over spiritual truth.* 53:23 *🔮 Gnostic traditions allowed individuals to claim spiritual authority independent of church hierarchy, challenging bishops' power.* 53:52 *📚 Irenaeus wrote extensively against heretics, emphasizing the importance of following bishops for spiritual truth.* 55:15 *📅 The dating of Gnostic texts like the Gospel of Thomas is disputed, ranging from 70 AD to 200 AD.* 56:53 *🤔 The speaker expresses a preference for these texts due to a "protestant heretical streak" and dislike of absolutist church authority.* 58:28 *🏛️ The controversial final passage of the Gospel of Thomas about making Mary "male" is interpreted as a Jewish tradition of suppressing gender identity to recognize essential humanity.* 01:00:12 *📖 The passage reflects Jewish traditions prohibiting teaching Torah to women, with Jesus speaking as a rabbi.* 01:02:50 *💡 The Gospel of Thomas emphasizes the idea of being created in God's image as light, transcending gender distinctions.* 01:04:23 *🌟 The text presents a spiritual identity rooted in collective origins from divine light, rather than individual or geographical identities.* 01:06:56 *🗝️ These texts reveal a wider range of early Christian views than were later allowed after the formulation of official creeds.* 01:08:04 *📘 The speaker's book "The Gnostic Gospels" was initially criticized but later revisited in a more mature approach in "Beyond Belief".*

[@Charlieismycat]

Great interview, very interesting topic and speaker. (P.S: commentors be grateful for the podcast guest) I notice some people complain about her not wishing to speak on certain topics. Bear in mind, her enthusiasm for the topic might not stem from the same place as yours, and that different angle for her curiosity is likely to be why she's dived so deep into these texts.

[@louisXiceyX]

she was fucking adorable. her enthusiasm for this and energy was incredible: you can tell she really connects with this work in an intrinsic way. I appreciate that more than anything.

[@doneasneakyonya]

Unless you bring up Samael/Yaldabaoth/Abraxas then she shuts down, dodges and dismisses.

[@susiejoyk1287]

Totally NOT necessary to use the F word. You just used it for shock value. It takes away all credibility for anything else you say after that!!

[@RitaDimarco-xx4tx]

Agreed , swearing is from the devil

[@juanitaross5492]

Why did you have to use the f word ? How young are you ?

[@daleval2182]

Enthusiastic review 😊

[@jarretpaul]

Wow, She is just so wonderful to listen to. Loved this conversation!

[@TheLeonhamm]

The short answer - and the best - is : fairly late writings (noted at a late date, if not actually written later than the last of the texts accepted as of apostolic origin), i.e. those that did not make it into the Catholic canon (list) of texts used for the Liturgies. Many of the better types (and those frequently used in Catholic circles) are still found in the listings associated with The Fathers, or used in various traditions .. e.g. of scholarly or pastoral use, The Protoevangelium of James, The Acts of Paul and Thecla, The Gospel and Acts of Thomas, others are more like modern popular 'novels' of the 'Ben Hur' or 'The Robe' types, as in The Assumption, Letter of Pontius Pilate, Apocalypse of Moses, etc. These and other early Christian texts - specifically or incidentally not included in the term 'all scripture' can be found online (free) at New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - Fathers. These include some texts that could have made it into the Canon of the Catholic Holy Bible, 1 Clement, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Liturgy of James, Didache .. but were not sufficiently widely known, used, or listed (the current Apocalypse in the Catholic list of Scripture very nearly did not make it into the list for the same reasons, but familiarity in some the oldest or most respect 'Sees' like Rome, Alexandria, Antioch seem to have won the day, and Hebrews also had a bit of bumpy ride, along with 2 Peter and Jude). The division of Gnostic (mystical, sectarian, or occult knowledge) and Catholic (creedal, liturgical, common use) types was not always as clear-cut as history (or rather as historians) may like to present it; as present within the Catholic Church until the Reformation, i.e. the Saints' Lives (Perpetua and Felicity, Barlaam and Josephat, Sergius and Bacchus, Magdelene, Nicholas or George or Martin or Monica), the mystics (Novatian's Concerning the Trinity, Gertrude of Helfta's 'Insinuationes divinae pietatis', Julian of Norwich 'Revelations of Divine Love'); and even today .. requiring approval of the local Ordinary, the Holy Office (now a Dicastery), or a reigning Sovereign Pontiff (aka the Pope, cf the slightly dubious 'Divine Mercy' devotion of Faustina Kowalaska) .. and such like .... Keep the Faith; tell the truth, shame the devil, and let the demons shriek. God bless. ;o)

[@premakau]

I am a staunch Sanathani...yet I listened to whole of your discussion on Gnostic and spiritual freedom . This is new to me. One thing about my chdhood is I studied in a convent run school.. the incident is ... I lost my new pen .. the Sisters who were my teachers asked me to kneel down and pray with them to Mother Mary to find my pen.. at the end of the prayer I heard the sound of my pen falling to the earth..I opened my eyes and saw the pen on my desk.. yet I could not think MMary brought my pen back.. Now after hearing to both your very patient and neutral approach I feel I saw my childhood back in that xtians run school.. Any way by the time I grew up I was a teacher myself in a Govt school of secular themes .. Even now I am secular because all religious approaches are driven by dogmatism and business approach Thank you

[@willard73]

Alex wants to explore the breadth of Gnosticism. Pagels wants to talk obout the Gospel of Thomas.

[@matthewkopp2391]

There are many other experts. Pagels was at one short period a fundamentalist who did not like many literalist doctrines, especially the „going to hell“ ideas which are not even Biblical. But texts like the Gospel of Thomas confirmed her spiritual sense of Christianity and a path to practice Christianity in a non-literal way. So there is a little bias but still a great scholar and I appreciate both her spiritual sense and her scholarship. A lot of what she writes is basically an apologetic defense for non-literalist interpretations and that there is very old tradition of it. There are other scholars such as mythicists who focus on other Gnostic texts to continue their critique of Christianity, who do go into the texts and interpretations that Pagels finds shallow. No doubt IMO the Marcionist literalists, probably inspired later literalist groups like the Bogomils and Cathars. I find their persecution by the Catholics horrendous but I would no more want to defend their interpretations than I would want to defend literalist Catholics or Protestants. For example. I read Pagels not just for good scholarship but because I too, appreciate that she opens up Christian spirituality.

[@bargledargle7941]

@@matthewkopp2391 Look what you say is interesting, I am not particularly educated on theology or history. But I think she is missing the point and is wrong about calling the biblical God inferior. I am an atheist but I feel way more inspired from the old testament rather than those gnostic texts or new testament. I think it's a much more sensible God too if I were spiritual at all...

[@matthewkopp2391]

@@bargledargle7941she is not saying the Old Testament god is inferior she is saying that certain early Christians held that belief. She described Marcion for example who believed in the demiurge vs the transcendent God. But a similar distinction is made in the Old Testament. At times God is YHWH and spoken of in anthropomorphic terms and then other times God is described as transcendent and in non-anthropomorphic terms such as I am. There is a theme in the Old Testament as to what constitutes idolatry and the same obsession occurs with Plato who described the demiurge in more neutral terms versus a transcendent god. Early Christianity was infused with Platonism and some took the Plato demiurge idea as evil because of the evil in the world and the evil demonstrated by an Old Testament god. She is just describing different ideas that were around at the time.

[@bargledargle7941]

@@matthewkopp2391 It's important you corrected me about this. I think the idea of "God of the old testament is evil or inferior" is extremely unattractive and spiritually poor.

[@SpeakingSeriously]

@@matthewkopp2391 I am Jewish and she sounds like she wishes she were Jewish too. I am reading "A LIttle Boy in Search of God" by Isaac Bashevis Singer and he speaks of pantheistic ideas. They sound very similar.

[@UnveilingFaith]

My hypothesis, and perhaps already expressed so by many of the Orientalists, is that Islam is a slow evolution of the theological churnings that were happening in the 4-6th century fertile crescent area. Qur'an is a product of a fringe sect of Christianity - Unitarians. We are a group of atheists/ex-muslims. We talk about religions but mostly Islam and challenge the fundamentals of religions through rational and philosophical arguments. Looking to get some support from western audience on what we do.

[@EdgarRamG]

Hey I think you’re on to something, . Saint John of Damascus documented the beginnings of Islam, you might be interested in this. According to him, Muhammad had been speaking to an Arian monk named Bahira, and that Islam was a continuation of Arianism. Idk much about it but it might be a good resource.

[@EdgarRamG]

i only read your first paragraph then responded, you probably already know about this then.

[@Neognostic-pk5wu]

I'm curious - is there a direct correlatable link between Christian Unitarians and Islamic Sufism do you think?

[@wjckc79]

@@EdgarRamG St. Maximus also wrote about Islam at its advent.

[@Geraint3000]

That was incredibly illuminating. I did an A-level in religious sties but was always fascinated by the elided works of the NT. Elaine Pagels is astounding! As an aside I was quite amazed when someone as clever as Alex couldn't say Salome.

[@amisikiarie]

How embarrassing! She appeals to Mark 4 and claims it doesn't give the secret teaching when it's right there if you keep on reading. The secret was the interpretation of the parables. These are the levels of self-deceit that one has to descend to in order to take these "gospels" seriously.

[@serversurfer6169]

The reader only gets the secret explanation for the first of the four parables detailed in that chapter, and Mark finishes that discourse by saying that in public, Jesus used parables exclusively, and the disciples received the full explanations only in private. 🤷‍♂

[@deborahdean8867]

​@@serversurfer6169and, its pretty clear and easy interpreting those parables. Do they have to give the plain version for every one? Though i can't remember one parable thats not explained. And why does he say they're given in parables? So the people will have ax n excuse not to yndetstand, an excuse to claim they didnt understand, a way to fuzzy the story so that the person would not be condemned to hell. Since its prophesied a time of teaching will come, and things be made plain to ALL, he said its better some dont get it right now because they couldnt achieve understanding. There is no mysterious teaching. No secret power. If you read it, its all totally plain and the the truth is simple. It needs one thing, exercise, enactment, practice. The individual must put the lesson into practice, that's faith and obedience. THAT is the secret to achieving the righteous state of being.

[@Alyxzand]

Yeah I thought that was bizarre and perhaps intectually dishonest. Especially considering Alex brought up Mark first, and she as a historian should have immediately provided context, but instead played off. God bless Irenaeus 🙏

[@andyokus5735]

I had a miserable traumatized childhood. At age 14 I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. My entire being was transformed instantly. God revealed Himself to me in all His Omnipresence. I was healed from my childhood hate and abuse. But I didn't even know what the Bible was. It was when I joined this Jesus Freak cult that I began to be abused by these so-called born again Christian hypocrites. A long time went by and I lost my faith and went bad in life. When I got my faith back I still had many doubts as I was no longer a " funnymentalist ". If anything I am a mystical follower of Jesus Christ, the Christos; the Savior of this world. I would love to study with this lady.

[@Love77769]

He was a teacher. Not a savior. Many enlightened beings have came to this planet to teach people how to behave. He, like many other ascended masters help people on this side. The best place to look for information is inside of yourself. It's all there. It's not learning..it's remembering ❤

[@daleval2182]

She has tons of writing

[@daleval2182]

​@@Love77769he is our only hope of eternal life , the sooner you grip this the easier your going to handle the afterlife your owed by one promise given

[@rreid3990]

Great! Thank you Alex. And thanks for having thee fabulous Elaine Pagels on!

[@Gno-SISter]

I'm incredibly grateful this came across my feed. Thank you!

[@MusoStuu]

Just a very small footnote, the apostle Paul is utterly black-and-white on the death, and resurrection of Jesus’ actually body. Here is Paul exegeses: In one of his letters, Paul talks about Jesus being raised from the dead in physical terms in 1 Corinthians chapter 15. He emphasizes the importance of Jesus' resurrection, saying that if Christ has not been raised, then faith is futile. The bodily resurrection of Jesus is central to Paul’s message to the gentle. Paul’s message of resurrection, is certainly not only symbolic and spiritual, but has its very essence and foundations in the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

[@swolejeezy2603]

I think she had in mind 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul talks about the “spiritual body” which the Christian’s mortal body is transformed into in the resurrection. Personally I don’t think this precludes a physical resurrection either, as in my view a “spiritual body” can just be made of a different, better material from our mortal bodies

[@Neognostic-pk5wu]

The question arises, which letters? Many of the Pauline Epistles have been established as being doctored, and quite a few are contested as not genuine with less certainty.

[@matthewkopp2391]

@@Neognostic-pk5wu​​⁠​⁠The letters of Paul that are believed to have been forgeries are first and second Timothy. And part of the argument for it is that Marcion who was the main preserver of the Pauline letters did not have the Timothy letters in his corpus. Which indicates that they may have been forged later and perhaps specifically, in part, to exclude women from the priesthood. Whether or not Paul took the restoration of the body literally or not, to me is unclear, but I think he did. But I mainly believe that because Origen of Alexandria believed that Jesus did not have a physical body but his body was an illusion. And he directly criticized Marcion saying, „they Marcionists won’t allow allegorical readings only literal readings.“ There may have been a corruption from Paul to Marcion, but I think Paul believed in the restoration literally, as a fact that would happen to the dead, but also spiritually believed in a spiritual body especially one that Christians were responsible for developing in themselves.

[@swolejeezy2603]

@@Neognostic-pk5wu Well there are seven scholars generally accept as authentically Paul’s, with potential interpolations here and there: Galatians, Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon. Colossians and Ephesians are heavily debated but aren’t included in that list. The rest are widely believed to be inauthentic

[@Dominick13777]

You made an excellent point. Also, Elaine's interpretation of Mark 4, "secret teachings of Jesus," is incorrect. According to Matthew 13:11-13, seeking God leads to deeper understanding, while neglecting Him results in losing any understanding one may possess. Additionally, this lack of insight is often a consequence of unbelief. This situation underscores the fate of those who fail to recognize Jesus in His true light.

[@Thedeepseanomad]

She comes across as a believer who gets out of her comfort zone when demiurg and weird named realms come up.

[@swolejeezy2603]

I’d get out of my comfort zone too if I was a believer, but it just seems weird to hear from such a credentialed professional

[@Neognostic-pk5wu]

​@@swolejeezy2603well, agnostic or otherwise, the idea of the demiurg at least provides a better explanation for the Paradox of Empiricus than anything i've heard from a more traditional Christian apologist.

[@Orikon25]

Precisely, that's what people don't get. She's a believer, but her scholarly experience forced her to be open to the idea of Christian teachings beyond the Orthodox, and she fully recognizes how Church fucked up the entire religion... but the "alternate" cosmology is outside of her comfort zone. Which is a bit odd I admit, because things like the Demiurge and Sophia are very much part of the Valentinian systems that she defends. Nevertheless, she's still has a more open-minded and mature approach not just to Christianity but religion as a whole than 99% of the people out there, and for that she needs to be commended.

[@TotallyNotKanye]

Then you don’t get Gnosticism as you can only see the esoteric not the exoteric.

[@hopepolenica971]

As a spiritual person, I find it fascinating how many ppl take religion & religious text so literally. Unfortunately, many teachings have been corrupted by those that don’t truly understand. And the blind lead the blind. It may be helpful to view these teachings as a mirror of reality and how we ourselves act accordingly. And simply realize that our comprehension of these teachings is a direct reflection of our own state of mind (ie if you believe in a wrathful God). As we ourselves inflict judgement upon each other. One can only perceive to the limits of their evolution. Hopefully we can grow past wrathful and focus on love.

[@yassine073t]

50:40 very important this is more evidence to the claim that Christians are polytheists because they worship their Bishops and Priests/Pastors. Worship means total obediance without question following a leader.

[@dougwulf6684]

Thanks!

[@brianbarr5386]

I love hearing from Pagels! Thanks for having her on!

[@thezieg]

Excellent guest. Dr Pagels is an outstanding scholar and speaker and you interacted with her perfectly.

[@johnwheeler3071]

I agree. Alex didn't let her off the hook when she claimed the God of the Orthodox interpretation was just made up by Irenaeus and Marcion but is actually within the texts that she espouses. Elaine is very sneaky like Jordan Peterson.

[@PBCBlount]

This was incredible! ❤ Her passion is amazing! Thanks for having her Alex!

[@foxxcharmer]

Her knowledge and wisdom is appreciated thank you for delivering this!!

[@matthewbazeley2984]

I really enjoyed this video Alex , thank you

[@joemedley195]

I’d heard that Pagels was ill and might not make it. I’m glad to see her up and around again.

[@pierrebram8573]

Whenever people talk emotionally or excited about a topic which should be fact based, i get cautious. There are only short pieces of texts available, and she starts fully characterising people who wrote these texts, instead of just sticking to that what they wrote. I think 90% of what she says are emotional, unreflected impressions. She maybe cannot differ between what facts are and what are superficial, Moment based, mood dependent ideas of hers...

[@gonesideways6621]

Nailed it!

[@gordonmitchell729]

This is a very welcome conversation in my search for greater understanding. It’s not unexpected that your video suddenly appeared in my search for gnostic information. Thank you so much. 🖖👀

[@zonzzo]

I have x

[@alphanumericskeptic]

A very interesting interview. I loved hearing Elaine Pagels share her knowledge. Thank you Alex!

[@Lukewarme]

It's always impressive to see the resemblance between the bagavat gita and the early christian gospels. About the non duality and indivisibility of all being from god.

[@atgred]

12:45 talking about taking Scripture out of context. Paul is not referring to those teachings as secretive for the unlearned, but that he has to speak to them as children so they can understand. That is why there is Sunday School or Catechism for children and adults, to teach at their level. Because in that same chapter Paul says: “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are *FREELY* given to us of God.” ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬

[@Veritas_Christi]

Mark 4:10-11 is part of a passage where Jesus is teaching in parables. Here's the context: In Mark 4:1-9, Jesus tells the Parable of the Sower, where he describes different types of soil representing different responses to the word of God. Then, in Mark 4:10-12, Jesus explains why he teaches in parables: 10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, “‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’” In these verses, Jesus is explaining that while he reveals the secrets of the kingdom of God to his disciples, he speaks in parables to the crowds. This is because the parables serve to reveal truth to those who are receptive to his teaching, while concealing it from those who are not genuinely seeking to understand. He quotes Isaiah 6:9-10 to illustrate this concept "He said, 'Go and tell this people: Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving. Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed." this is Isaiah 6:9-10 Jesus is essentially explaining his method of teaching using parables. He tells his disciples that they have been given insight into the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, including those who may be present but not truly seeking to understand, his teachings are given in parables, which may obscure the message to some extent. By speaking in parables, Jesus both reveals and conceals the truth. To those who sincerely seek understanding, the parables serve as a means of deeper insight into spiritual truths. However, to those who are merely curious or who approach his teachings with a closed heart and mind, the parables may remain incomprehensible or easily dismissed. In quoting Isaiah, Jesus emphasizes that this method fulfills a prophecy: those who persist in spiritual blindness will remain so, while those who genuinely seek understanding will find it. It's unlikely that Jesus is referring specifically to the Gnostic Gospels in Mark 4:10-11. The Gnostic Gospels, which are a collection of early Christian texts discovered in the 20th century, were not widely known or recognized during Jesus' lifetime or during the time the Gospel of Mark was written. Instead, in Mark 4:10-11, Jesus seems to be speaking generally about his teaching method and the nature of his message. He uses parables to convey spiritual truths to his disciples and to those who are open to receiving his teachings. The reference to "the secrets of the kingdom of God" likely refers to the deeper spiritual truths that Jesus reveals through his parables to those who are receptive to his message. While the Gnostic Gospels contain teachings attributed to Jesus, they were written later than the canonical Gospels and often present different theological perspectives. So, it's more probable that Jesus is referring to his own teachings and the spiritual insights he imparts to his followers, rather than any specific texts like the Gnostic Gospels. The Gnostic Gospels present a different perspective on Christianity compared to the canonical New Testament books. They often contain teachings and narratives that differ from those found in the Bible. Some of these differences include: Cosmology and Creation: Gnostic texts often present a complex cosmology with multiple divine beings and realms, which contrasts with the simpler creation narrative found in the Bible. Salvation: Gnostic texts may emphasize salvation through secret knowledge (gnosis) rather than through faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior, which is a central tenet of orthodox Christianity. Jesus' Teachings: While some Gnostic texts contain sayings attributed to Jesus that are similar to those found in the canonical Gospels, they also include teachings that diverge significantly from orthodox Christian doctrine. Role of Women: Gnostic texts sometimes portray women in more prominent roles than they are given in the canonical Gospels, reflecting different attitudes toward gender and spirituality. Resurrection: The Gnostic Gospels often have a different understanding of resurrection and the afterlife compared to orthodox Christian beliefs. These differences have led many scholars to conclude that the Gnostic Gospels represent alternative expressions of early Christian beliefs and practices that were eventually deemed heretical by the emerging orthodox Christian community. While the Gnostic Gospels provide valuable insights into the diversity of early Christian thought, they are not considered authoritative scripture by mainstream Christian denominations and are viewed as outside the biblical canon. the gnostic gospels directly contradict the bible and if we look at the times they were written as well they are said to be written much later and have much different theological standpoints than original Christianity.

[@tanakaren1822]

In case you're not aware, the Council of Nicea, did some MAJOR REWRITTING of the 4 canonical gospels, in attempt to consolidate Church power: 1) Jesus taught the law of Reincarnation, but the Roman governors were having trouble passing new laws & taxes...rebelliins breaking out. So the Council wiped out all refferences to reincarnation. Added a law that if anyone spoke of reincarnation, they, their spouse, children, granchildren, cousins, parents, grandparents & neighbors would all be put to death. Very effective. Except they overlooked some sentences in Elijiah & Issiah which have proved to be sticky wickets.. 2)The emperor wanted to marry his slave, which was against Jewdaic law. So they made a new law thar allowed a master slaves elevate a slave to a servant. And another that permitted masters to marry their servants. 3) Mary the Magdalene was rewritten as a harlot. As Magdalene (its a title not a name or place name), she was the priestess oracle, of goddess Ashtarte. Problematic. She, even more inconveniently was Jesus' Companion, yes capital C, as in their term for wife. (Reread John , Thomas, & Philip- Wedding of Cana.) Weddings took place at brides parents home. This one took place at Joseph of Aramathias' & Mary the Magdalene was his only relative, a niece. They were the House of Benjamin, & Jesus was House of Davi; the 2 ruling tribes of old in Judaism (until King Solomon's time when his lovely Egyptian wife (sister to the Pharaoh) orchestrated an invasion. Bye bye Houses of David & Benjamin. Except there had been thus vision (Elisiah or Isaiah?), thst the 2 houses would be rejoined (always by marriage) & the messiah would conquer the invaders (Romans). So for a few hundred years, different guys were thought to be it. But Jesus had the bloodline (always through mother) & was eldest son. The phrophecy was that the conquerer cum messiah would be born under a star etc. Going back ~28 years, Herod had ordered that all newborn males be out to death. But Mary (mom) had escaped w Jesus to Egypt. Now Mary was a virgin. But that word did not exsist on its own, until centuries later. If a female wasnt married, she was a girl. Marriage made them into women. Simple. But there were Vessel Virgins; the Giddesses priestesses. So Mary (mom( being called a virgin Now, here's the importance of 3 wise men at his birth. Gold was used by royatly & all temples, but Myrrh & Frankinsence used solely in the Goddess' temples, In Egypt, she was called Isis. (Ashtarte, in the holy lands). So those gifts were 'tuition' basically for Jesus' formative years. Go forward to when Jesus was a kid & he's not doing his chores, Mary (mom), stomps off to the Temple , goes into the Unner of Inners, where Jesus is argueing w the high rabbis, & hauls him back home. Except Jewish Temples always had outer & inner guards. Woman were not alowed to touch even to the lowest of the outer steps with a finger tip or baby toe. They'd be instantly stoned to death, for having polluted tge temple. But Mary just goes past tge guards right up the steps, though the Central hall (& those guards) , though the Inner Chamber & into the Inner of Inners, where Jesus is debating with the high rabbis. Mary, interrupts, berates the Pharisees for distracting her son from his chores again & drags him off home. The only women that were held in such awe & authority, were the Goddess' high priestesses. They were believed to wield incredible power & were greatly feared. 2+ 2 =? Back to wedding of Cana. If Mary (mom) a nobody as made out to be, why is she there, & Jesus & all the aspostles.. at the most important wedding (it like saying its the sole Rothchild wedding, Joseph of A. had the midas touch, owned shipping fleet & swaths of land, huge trading lord who welded vast political power). Ask yourself why Mary (mom), asks Jesus to make wine for guests, when in Jewish weddings the food & refreshments were the sole reponsibility of the groom & his family. To very patriarchal & chauvanistic bishops (just read their ideas in women, whew!) vying for power & Roman acceptance, they couldn't alowe that out. Very quietly, in 1976 , approximately 1500 years later, Mary's status was harlot was recinded due to pressire from scholars, that there was no basis for that dilineation. But, that reccindment was never announced. Decades later it was leaked by Edmund Zelesky, main translator of Vatican's (secret) library.

[@M-i-k-a-e-l]

Really hard to find evidence about the reincarnation part tho. What do you recommend?

[@marinabereza1523]

Your knowledge is amazing! Thank you

[@tanakaren1822]

@@M-i-k-a-e-l Hi Mikael, They called it the Transmigration of Souls. One of most blatant, but over looked is that there are 2 Judgement Days, when you die & again b4 Rapture, which is called The Last Judgement. If there is a last, there must be a predesessor. Jesus asks Ds "Who do they say I am?" They variously reply John B, Jonas, one of the Prophets (= Elijah, Issaih etc) Jesus says " Something greater than Jonas is here....", meaning I am more than that previous version. John 9:2 " Rabbi, who sinned, this person or his parents that he should be born blind?" It is clearly presupposes that his disability of blindness at the tributable to a prenatal transgression, and offence committed by him in a previous reincarnation. Paul Romans 7:9 " I lived once without the laws" Matt 11:11 John the Baptist /Elijah Matt 17:9 Ds ask Jesus why describe say the first Eliza must come. He replies Elijah does come and they did not recognize him but did to him whatever they pleased so also with the son of man will certainly suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist." It was an accepted tenant in the early Christian communitues. Different sects (there were about 240 by 2cd Century) held the belief. Some bishoos vied for power & augued w others. Eventually the former allied w Emporer Constantine, to gain more power & thus the teeny Canonical Gospels list set - other gospels & 100s of other texts were thrown out. Reincarnation would have been inimical to (as already in their belief system) the christian Jews, Greeks, Coptics (Egyptian & Ethiopian), Galations, Britons, but not the Romans. Not sure re others, Syrians etc... [hard to keep track!]. Who believed & taught it that we know? Well, the following leaders & their followers ( whom split into more grouos, slightly different beliefs) Valentinus (was a bishop) Bridides Origen (bishop) - Theologua Principlilus, Contra Celsum Theodys Clement of Alexandria Paul & his disciples (gnostic texts) Secret Teachings of, Corinthians, Galateans, Colossians & Epheseans John Mary Mother Mary Magdalene Philip Oh, also see Photios I of Constantinople (via Hypotyposes) attacked Clement of Alexandria's De Somnisi for theology of Transmigration of Souls, among other points. It is tricky question, as reincarnation was an understood foundation of Jewish belief, so it is not spelled out specifically, just understood, as part of culture, so remaining references are oblique. Jews believed in reincarnation just as the Sumerians, Egyptians & Greek/Platonists etc did. These are who they derived parts of their myths - (then turned backwards). See Issaih & Elijah etc. It was a 'given' belief. Jesus/Yeshua was Jewish & a Rabboni, as only a Rabboni (= Rabbi who marries) can be a teacher. Parable of Talents, has underlying assumption. John, "These gifts & more shall you be given....", presumes future life. I'd check out the Coptic Nag Hammadi Texts - Gs of Thomas ( tho some of 114 saying are J's sarcastic rebuke to ignorance or mysogeny of male disciples( Peter & Paul (pre J's death)), over relationship w Mary Magdalene ( G Philip, John). Remaining Gnostic writtings (though not so sure that Jesus so much duality views, good/evil gods nor the various & complicated 'historical' cosmologies of Archeons etc - .I think most of that is dervived from Sumerian tablets; creation story, Elish Enuma, see Anton Parks translation. Via later Egyptian teachings of course . It is pretty eye opening tosay the least re origin of OT stories, yet the victor/Yaweh, turns stoies in head- backwards, but you'll recognise Cain & Able in evil twin Enlil & good twin Enki, Garden of Eden is a flipped from human slave compound of leader war god Enlil. Enlil's wife not subserviant/sexually submissive like Adam's first wife Lilith & both women leave, called evil, seductress, serpents, originators of sin etc by spurned mates.. Non Roman Church (Gnostic) sects writting were burnt because it undermined Roman 1-life belief, Roman political authority & hegemony (bc Jesus taught: True God is indwelling in each of us, man & woman, child & elder, -We dont need go between, -Awakening is an inside job!. So this really undermined Roman Church authority, whose teaching had become quiet different. The acepted Gospels we now know became very rewritten to augment Church power & coffers - humans innately sinful without Church redemption (introduced 400s), - Need intervention obediances to growing list of rules, mysogeny, tithes, take Sacrament,- - Messianic Christ emphasized quality to attract Jews, through Jesus kept dishing that " I am not your Master" etc . -J's Awakening becomes Resurrection. Aside- Crucifiction deaths usually takes 7-14 days. But Jesus was on cross only 6 hours b4 taken down. Only the 3 Mary's are at crucifiction: wife Mary Magdalene, mother Mary & sister Mary . One of them gives Jesus 'sour wine' on cloth. Right away he makes dramatic scene, crying out, loud enough for Roman guard at base of hill) to hear , "Father why have you abandoned me?" Which is very out of character, especially as he has with certainly fortold his death & 'arising' 3+ times. Jesus slumos into unconsciousness. Guard prods him w spear on side to ensure he's dead (no reaction, but a bit of blood). Guard goes w Joseph A to testufy to Pilot that he's dead & Pilot alowes Joseph A to take the body for burial (whose ship leaves soon). My bet is 'sour wine cloth is laced w herbs that instigates a comatose like state, herbs which Marys Mag & mom would know & use, presiding over NDE initiations ( which were oar fir the course in many traditions). Thus, Jesus' 'rises' out if tge NDE, having exoerienced tge Truth, that we are all one being inside God, in love, oeace & joy. He emerges from an NDE, not physical death, yet he must still integrate the deep soul changing experience, so tells Mary Mag, when she reaches for him, " Do not touch me, as I have not yet fully risen." The other disciples see this as the prophet fortold Messianic Ressurection. In some early sects, it is taught Joseph delivers Jesus to Egypt to begin teaching & travelling anew. Later, as things get too hot, Pilot not happy Chistianity is flourishing, Joseph A takes Mary (& baby Sophia) to France (now known as Soux Saintes De La Marie), where he has a tin mining operation, & they reside in one of the caves for rest of their lives.. Three centuries later many of the true teachings shook Constantine & his governors' ability to control populace, pass new laws, as were not bedded in tradition (& far life memories of people) & have hegemonious society. These were the reasons so many early sects (& later C14-16 Cathar pogom by Pope Innocent I, etc) were hunted & burned or sacrificed to lions & gladiators in Roman Colosseum by decree of Roman Emperor, who was bent consolidating power in unruly empanding empire. This is why early Christians hid in burial catacombs & fled to countryside, becoming 'pagans' (the term Pagan simply means counrty dweller). Reading the self proclaimed (& other non compliant bishops ousting) Church Fathers, espec Irenaeus, Justin Matyr, Augustine, Jerome, Lactantius & Telluruan's writings (righteous rants!), can give you a good idea of what exactly they disgreed with & tried to purge. In 340 ad as Constantine takes power as a Roman Emperor he gives the power and authority to Athenasius, who writes what has become known as 'The Easter Letter', telling all the churches to no longer use any of an enclosed list of other teachers texts in their sermons, worship services & gatherings. Thus cutting off the ability to teach anything but the Roman Church decreed canon. All thelisted texts were ordered collected & burnt or otherwise destroyed. So much info re the early sects was lost. A very few were saved; what survived were texts that courageous & foresightful scribe priests hid, in disobediance of the Emporers edict (upon cost of their life). -What little we have are the Coptic texts, such as the Nag Hammadi & also the Dead Sea Scrolls. Hopefully more will be found. The Gospel of Thomas was one of those texts ( NH) , so we know it was used and accepted up till that point (~553-560). Also if I remember correctly (40 years since Seminary days), Pliny the Younger (grandson of Pliny the Elder) wrote concerning these affairs & beliefs..

[@tanakaren1822]

@@marinabereza1523 You're so welcome Marina. Not a scholar but I love researching things, ferreting stuff out & listening deeply to my intuitiin & far life memories! You might be interested in my reply today to Mikael on this thread.

[@chriscross5188]

Dear Tanakaren and dear fellow humans, who believe in what Tanakaren wrote here. What are your sources of information please (exactly, so I can look them up) and how do those sources stand the test of textual criticism by research scholars? As far as I know the latter people (not catholics only) agree that from the myriad of ancient manuscripts and writings of early church fathers before Christians ceased to be persecuted, that what we have today as the NT is reliable. One example about the supposed rest of hints in the NT about reincarnation: within Jewish beliefs at the time of Jesus (traditions not the Tanakh) was that a baby could sin in the womb. So reading this passage with our mindset, that an unborn person in the womb is innocent, this does not make sense but with the Jewish mindset of the time it does. Best wishes

[@superdr88]

This is so fascinating! Thanks for this interview 🙏

[@tezzymai5076]

What an interesting subject and guest! So much went over my head but her passion for the subject made it quite inspiring, looking forward to the future discussions

[@monoyamono]

Man, Alex's face ,he looks kinda pissed, lol around 36 minutes after obviously being super enthusiastic and curious to speak about admittedly one of the most interesting texts, the Gospel of Judas, and the interviewee just does a cobra and goes back to the others. I totally felt that. I may be projecting but his usual "I'm listening face" doesn't not have such a frown. 😜

[@smillstill]

He does the same thing when she flat out refuses to talk about the Sethian dark demiurge.

[@TheRealShrike]

Yeah, what was that all about? Such a strange refusal from her in an otherwise interesting interview. It. came across as really bizarre.

[@smillstill]

@@TheRealShrike I think these iconic academic people are used to being able to give a presentation on what they want and not be told what to talk about. They just tour with a topical presentation and do the same one for a year or two. She's like 80, so maybe she doesn't remember anything else...

[@mangleman25]

It's disappointing as hell as a listener too because the Gospel of Judas is the most interesting one of these texts. She just completely sidestepped talking about it for "muh spirituality", which is pretty irritating to hear coming from a scholar.

[@James-ll3jb]

He smells witchy b.s.

[@stevenrhynes1556]

I love this lady. Everyone's mother, grandmother teacher, friend.

[@harutikz]

There is a 5th century Armenian church father called Yeznik of Koxb. He mops the floor with gnostics. His book is available.