A Good Old Fashioned Grading Debate

[@markstein1916]

GREAT point Theo.... Why should we (the consumer) be paying for PSA's mistakes? If they can't properly identify an altered card, that's their problem... NOT OURS. The obscene up-charge for their supposed "guarantee" is pure BS, and it should be on them! You nailed it, sir.

[@MrJmangini]

Charging more for a higher grade is just 💩. Us Italians have a word for it. It’s called extortion.

[@MrJmangini]

Exactly. Never a down charge! Even when they bend your 63 Fleer Koufax in half and it gets a 1 😂

[@thomaszaske6082]

Mike, you saying you being excited paying additional $75 on an up charge on a $1500 card to $7500 is a horrible argument. Everyone would be happy about that. But paying $75 more on a card you thought was valued at $300 & it goes to $750 resulting in you giving PSA $75 for only a $450 increase in value is ludicrous. A financial planner should know better.

[@ClementeCollector]

Thanks for inviting me on Mike! 👊🏻

[@YodasBlessedLife]

I want just the cards not the grades , i know what to look for

[@MrJmangini]

Theo doesn’t understand that collectors today only care about the slab not the card. The slab is all that matters.

[@the_card_closet]

True that

[@peterb4871]

Sorry Mike, all cards grading services are thieves. There is no reason why cards should have upgrade charges. It takes same amount of time to grade a Greg Jefferies card than a Babe Ruth card. Only upgrade they should charge is to cover the extra cost of insurance to ship back to you. All grading companies suck for upgrading.

[@jmsportscards1046]

Team Theo here. Appreciate both arguments though.

[@4softcorners728]

I definitely agree with what Theo is saying and at the same time agree with Mike on just saying no if you don’t like it. I am living proof of that. I waited almost 2 years for a return during COVID and vowed never to submit again and have stuck to it. I will still buy their graded cards if the deal is right though. Haha At the end of the day I know Theo is just trying to open eyes and look out for newer collectors who may get taken advantage of. Enjoyed the discussion.

[@tonyleebrick9050]

Mike, I’m a little disappointed in the fact you defend PSA and are happy they charge you more for a nice card. Why are we having to pay them more for grading a $5k card vs a $500 card!? They are doing the EXACT same process in grading both!?

[@BenchClear]

I'm not happy that they are charging me more. I am happy that the card is more valuable. You are totally right. It is no different of a process.

[@ACollectorsDream]

Great conversation

[@MrJmangini]

Of course people who bash PSA don’t use them duh! 😂

[@true_rcs]

Fabulous discussion gentlemen! Solid points made by both.

[@chrisfrommissouri]

I believe The PSA set registry keeps PSA on top of the mountain. But , if PSA has bad service, Cost more and their slabs are not as pretty, they will not stay on top.

[@finalbosss]

$75 Upcharge for a $500 card is like a 15% tax on the customer for using their services. Upcharges are fine but within reason... Maybe a $1,000 card could get a $10 upcharge. $2,000 could get $20, and so on and so forth. These upcharges could possibly incentivize PSA to grade higher than necessary in order to make more profits. Maybe I'm tripping...

[@KevinKauffman-fz8gd]

Awesome video! Definitely agree with Theo. PSA people say there is a choice, that’s true, but in my opinion, the main reason they “choose”PSA is the registry.

[@BenchClear]

And why is that a bad thing if that is the way someone chooses to collect?

[@briankane759]

Great discussion from two guys with great collections. No one should be bashing you on your opinions on grading. At the end of the day, it's your collection and more importantly, your money to spend any way you want.

[@jga59]

I think if grading were really about authenticating, when originally conceived, the companies would have just authenticated cards without assigning them number grades. Grading today is about nothing more than greed. Greed on the part of the graders charging more for more for more valuable cards and greed on the part of those hoping to sell their graded cards for more money than if they weren't graded.

[@benicia21]

based on the current PSA grading tiers (June 2024) - the moment a card goes above $500 in value, the grading fees skyrocket

[@MidLifeCards]

Good discussion guys. I enjoyed it.

[@cardboardandplastic]

Upgrades are fine, but the way it is structured now is unreasonable. Part of the cost of submitting cards at the higher tiers is turnaround time. If I get charged $75 for a card that takes two months to get back to me, where that submission level is supposed to be 10 days, that is insanity. They need to have guidelines that are very clear about this and reasonable. If I have a bulk card that is now worth $1000, I think a 2% increase is far for everyone to cover PSA's claim for insuring the card. For a $600 card that would be $12 extra and for a $1000 card that would be $20 extra.

[@Hodges1455]

Gave a video like. Enjoyed listening to the discussion.

[@markstein1916]

I only use SGC on the rare occasion I get cards graded. Compared to PSA, SGC Holders look MUCH more attractive, their service is less expensive, their turnaround time is FAR superior, their grading is way more consistent, and they are much more pleasant to work with. And unlike PSA, they don't accept submissions from known card doctors. It's the world's biggest no-brainer. No wonder everyone who commented on Theo's video unanimously agreed that PSA is a scam.

[@davidbobo9740]

Theo i agree , upcharges are crap . Same job whether a 50 or a 5000. $ card. Are we getting better service ???

[@dakotacards]

If they’re gonna upcharge, it should be a straight % of Value post grade. $75 on a $505 card compared to $75 on a $1500 card is a big gap

[@robertlanham7830]

Or a $7500 card

[@SHCollector]

I understand the argument from Theo that what extra service did PSA do for grading my card a higher grade? Kind of similar to the tipping culture at restaurants in America if I can compare. Why should a tip be higher even just because a meal and a beverage I order is twice as much more than another plate and beverage at the same restaurant?

[@mookiechillson]

PSA is taking a chunk of the upside when they upcharge and socializing the downside when they have to write down a loss. It’s definitely a great business model for them.

[@BenchClear]

Well they are not a charity. They are a business.

[@mookiechillson]

@@BenchClear you’re exactly right - privatizing gains and socializing losses is a great way to make lots and lots of money

[@bogeytmf]

He knocked you out in the first round. You wobbled around for a few rounds, losing your train of thought, and then Boom goes the dynamite!

[@doug_sports_collector]

Great discussion guys.

[@RipFan8]

Hi Mike. Great discussion on a matter that has been a hot topic of late. Talk soon pal.

[@reubensnyder4656]

Both Mike and theo have great points, but my head hurts after watching this

[@steelerscollector]

PSA can increase the grade to up charge you sounds unethical and with todays greedy corporations I would be surprised. I mean who’s really overseeing anything? “Nat being a nice guy or a collector” don’t mean nothing

[@jamesmcferran4938]

Please discuss the future of Beckett and CGC!!! Our only hope for real competition!

[@scottvaughn9]

If I actually go to a card show, dealers will cite a non-PSA slab as being a key reason they can’t pay X or Y.

[@mjcollector1million]

I don't like upcharges from a collector's standpoint. Card may be worth $1,000 more, but if you're a collector and never sell, it's never a realized gain. PSA should be paid the upcharge by the auction house when it's sold. Guarantee doesn't come into play until a card is moved anyways. Not to mention, from a dollar perspective, guarantee isn't getting paid out on cards under $2,000 a majority of the time, so bulk submission upcharges are paying insurance for bigger cards. But that is a good point that guarantee shouldn't be paid for by the collector, if you believe in your service and want to offer a guarantee, eat the cost when you mess up. But unfortunately, as you point out, nothing needs to change because the high demand for PSA exists and the premium for a PSA 10 exists. If people would just stop using PSA and stop paying a premium for PSA 10s, things would change.

[@MrJmangini]

That’s exactly right. They claim to be the experts and they choose to guarantee and have insurance. That is their cost of being the top company and doing business. Why pass that on to us? If they don’t guarantee it would hurt them so to guarantee keeps them relevant and why people will pay them 10’s of thousands of dollars every year.

[@michaelcreeden1560]

Compelling video. My "take" on grading. The idea of "grading the condition of a card" always existed. I grew up collecting in the late 80s/early 90s and dealers at shows or LCSs would usually put a condition on the cards they were selling (MT, VG, VG-EX, etc). The price points were typically different based on those conditions. This is no different than it is today, it's just that multiple 3rd parties have now made a business off if it and profited. There will never be a true "standardization" of PSA 9 vs. PSA 9. It's subjective in many ways, so there will always be the potential of a card getting a higher or lower grade than it should. That SHOULD lead to consumers paying more for eye appeal (clearly more relevant in pre-war and vintage) and less for grade alone. I have argued with friends in the past that I don't totally understand the need to grade ultra modern cards, as MOST ultra modern cards should be a 9 out of the pack (I get there are printing issues at times which could change this). I'd argue there are three main winners in the grading equation: 1) those that grade raw cards, and get grades that allow for resale at profit and 2) consumers that are perfectly fine with PSA 9s (or low-mid grade cards for vintage). The discount on PSA 9s, and high eye appeal, low-mid grade vintage is staggering. Consumers that are ok with something less than a 10 can get amazing cards for massive discounts.

[@chrisolivo6591]

I use the grading scale to my advantage. There are so many undergraded cards out there with great eye appeal. I can buy so many more cards at a cheaper because it’s all relative. In general (with the exception of super high end cards) most card grades rise and fall at the same rate.

[@jeffkoll4002]

Flippers are fine with up charges because they get it back when they sell. Collectors don’t like them because they never get it back when they keep the card.

[@mcarp2271]

All these grading discussions, though repetitive, are interesting because they say so much about human nature. I’m not a collector who grades cards. However, to me it’s clear that grading adds value. Do I think it SHOULD be that way…. no. Does the way I think things SHOULD be matter? No. Reality matters. The “card community” as a whole has decided that grading matters, so that’s done folks. Grading companies provide a service to this “community”. So as a whole we whine and whine about these companies and at same time continue to shell out 10x the raw card value for graded cards. We want our cake and want to eat it too. Human nature. Don’t like these grading companies STOP GIVING THEM THE POWER BY BUYING THEIR SLABS. But we won’t. Because it adds value. Period. Fun debate guys. Thanks for making it!

[@mrmjmiller]

Without question up charging is a scam. As Theo said if mistakes are make that's on the grading company. Passing that on to uninvolved clients is immoral.

[@randyworden5232]

My biggest gripe is that people take their cards to PSA because of the higher resale value when they don't like the PSA grading/service/turnaround etc. Suck it up and stop doing it then!!! If you truly believe that you get a more consistent experience with SGC do it...take a few dollars less now and turn the industry around. Personally I have decided when I get cards graded I'm going SGC but I am not doing it for a living so I don't have to factor that in. I just think SGC offers more consistency and better service and personal value.

[@scottvaughn9]

You guys know that the real reason isn’t really OCD consistency from the collectors perspective. 95% of people simply follow resale value. Even for long-term investments. If I snapped my finger and suddenly, starting tomorrow, SGC slabs outsold PSA slabs by 25% or more, you would start seeing the hobby as a whole migrate from PSA over to SGC.

[@luke1jones]

Your concept of grading adding to the pie is inherently flawed. The pie isn't just your personal value added. The buyer of your card who is paying more for your card is paying more in the same proportion that you are gaining. The pie is the total hobby dollars of all collectors. And grading doesn't add to that and make that pie bigger. For every dollar added to you as a submitter, a dollar is lost somewhere else in the hobby. And your whole argument is based on the assumption you will be selling the card. If you don't sell it, any increase in value is theoretical. It isn't realized until you sell. In the interim, your hobby dollars are diminished until you sell. At which point, see paragraph 1 for why that still doesn't increase the pie. Finally, the position that if you don't like it, don't use them, ignores the fact that this isn't a vacuum. Choices other members of the hobby make with their hobby dollars affects the market as a whole. So turning a blind eye to the people funneling money out of the hobby harms everyone, not just those choosing to use PSA. The simple answer to your question if PSA is so bad, why are the numbers what they are, is addiction to the set registry. That's why the cards sell for more, and consequently why others who aren't on the registry use them. If the registry disappeared today, the numbers would shift overnight. Anyway, thanks for the great discussion guys. Appreciate that we can all collect how and what we like.

[@StevenSportsMD]

Great discussion. And I agree with Mike that the rest of the world should handle things like Bench Clear Media 😅

[@LegendsNeverDieCollection]

This Theo guy- doesnt he know you HAVE to slab cards?!? 🤪😉

[@bobcalderon2534]

Stop talking about grading. Enough is Enough. You must be running out of subjects

[@661fish4]

SGC is doing the same thing. I sent 3 cards back that were undergraded. I got a .5 bump on each. But i had to pay another 15 bucks per card to have them grade it right. Too many people worship PSA and now SGC. Grading is a money grab.

[@kennethsalter9998]

PSA is such nice cases and better overall appeal.....Like any company their is a learning curve .....They really shouldn't take 75 for a 500 dollar card !! ...Keep it 20 and 25 for a 1000 .....I just actually prefer SGC for vintage !! ...We need 2 as collectors hold companies responsible ! I don't send my cards inn much..I see a day when we will only pay 10 a card because most companies will sink themselves out of monopoly and greed !! ...We just need some company to take advantage and the people will eventually start agreeing !! We need more card companies that can allow uniforms by the leagues !! I love collecting !! Go Yankees !!

[@DennisO-g9m]

Grading doesn’t add value to card. People who perceive a card is valuable because a grading company gives a card a number value. People over spend because they think they are loosing out on something. Grading is an artificial way of trying to raise the price of a card. Collectors are relying on a company to grade a card a card for them. What happened to collectors talking to each other a determine how nice a card appears.

[@PaullyPorkchopsVids]

The only time I would ever use PSA is if I was reselling the cards. Using PSA for any other reason (especially for the PSA set registry) just doesn't make any sense to me. Upcharging without downcharging is just criminal, and listening to someone defend PSA is laughable.

[@BenchClear]

I have sent in thousands of cards for grading and I can tell you that I have only been upcharged twice. It is not like it happens all the time.

[@redl1ght343]

i am with Theo....PSA is greedy

[@vintagesanctuary]

Great discussion and debate, guys! Suppose a card is worth $300 ungraded for an online sale, but will sell for $600 online if graded by PSA. According to the market, that is $300 value added by PSA, at least for an online sale. Is it unreasonable for PSA to capture 25% of the added value, especially when they did provide a service in terms of verifying authenticity, giving a neutral 3rd-party grading opinion, protecting the card via encapsulation, providing a serial number and high quality online pictures of the card, plus a guarantee? 🤔🤔🤔

[@the_card_closet]

Yes, it is

[@markstein1916]

I'll take the equivalent raw card for $300 any day of the week. Grading is a scam.

[@RL3sports]

I don't want to rely on a company to tell me a card is nice. $600 is crazy. Use your eyes and pay $300

[@joelmayer4055]

Suppose PSA determines a card to be worth $600. But when the seller sells it weird stuff happens online and it only sells for $300. Prices fluctuate and can fluctuate wildly. I got a PSA 8 Tony Gwynn RC last week for 1/2 the going rate of othe PSA 8's. Weird stuff happens and PSA holding cards hostage (charging you the fee but breaking them out of the holder if you don't want to pay the upcharge is rkdiculous). When I send something in I am paying them to grade it. I want them to grade it as best they can and not have an incentive to grade it 1 grade higher to charge me a higher fee. Maybe I'm just too small of a collector. I don't have any 4 figure cards. But I just don't see how they can charge that much more without providing any additional service. What if they sent an email saying, "we have determined that this card is worth $1000. If you'd like we can insure it and that will be an additional $50 or you can decline the additional insurance and we'll insure it for the declared value you gave when you submitted it."

[@DoubleDvintagebaseballcards]

Listened to this one on the podcast great back and fourth. My take away is both you guys are wrong and AI would be the best thing ever for grading. Why would you not want consistency like absolute consistency ? Isnt that why everyone complains all the time ? I cant wait for the day that we can send a card in 1000x and it gets the same grade each time now that to me is fair and accurate period. Now you can argue till your blue in the face that the tech is not there yet and you cant train the AI to use the exact same scale as PSA or any other argument everyone uses ,well one day it will be and that day is the day I may actually send another card in for grading. Until than that ship has sailed for me and now any raw cards go straight into my own slabs that not only look way better but my eyes are the final judge not some random person who assigned a number/ dollar amount to the card. So both you guys are wrong 😂😂😂😂😂 and PSA is King sorry Theo and SGC slabs are cheap and the number is way way way to dang big 😂😂😂. Ok im done 👊🤙🤙

[@BenchClear]

That's a very fair point Dylan

[@ACD1994]

@@BenchClear It's a fair point, but there's more to the argument for AI than consistency, which is great. But also, being able to crack down (no pun intended) on cards that have already been graded previously. Which is why, I take the pop reports with a grain of salt.

[@mjcollector1million]

The reason why it is perceived that PSA is grading harder is because they are penalizing cards for things that not noticeable. I guarantee people do not want to know every little thing that is wrong with a card that AI would pick up. Not sure if this is what Mike meant about eye appeal, but I want the grade to reflect eye appeal, i don't want to be penalized for things that i can barely see, and i don't believe cards should grade higher when there are obvious flaws you see from a distance.

[@DoubleDvintagebaseballcards]

@@ACD1994 my understand of how AI works is you feed it enough info and in this case feed the AI with 1 million graded PSA cards it should in the end grade exactly how they grade now on an overall average .Ofcourse the problem is we have humans giving grades now that can in Nat Turners own words be different for each grader. All I want and everyone should want the exact same thing is consistency wherever and however they get us there the market will figure out the pricing of each grade later as we all in the end use our own eyes to justify buying every card we have in any certain grade right ?? Im with you on POP reports are completely corrupted at this point. I dont care what company grades my cards but if I had to choose I would use PSA everyday simply for there sleek feeling slab. Fun stuff to talk about no doubt ha ha ha

[@joelmayer4055]

I like the human element but I think it could be augmented by AI. A system where the AI would give a "technical score" and include hi-res images and explanation of why it got that score with the exact centering as well as showing what it saw. Then a human grader can move that grade up to a specified amount based on eye appeal and whatever "subjective" criteria you want. Maybe the human grader could move the grade up a max of 1.5 and down 1.

[@jon-eriksuermann9844]

I largely have the same opinion as Theo, but overall Mike is correct. He said it at the beginning, people don’t have to use them.

[@backtothecardboard]

Great discussion guys.