A GREAT IDEA THAT HELD THEM BACK! The Story of the Mercedes 'Double DRS' System (2011-12)

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Күн бұрын

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@CyanRooper Ай бұрын

Them: Which is better, DRS or Push-to-Pass? Me, an intellectual: Nitrous Oxide Also "There were no buttons to press." *unless you count Jenson Button pressing his elbow against the F-duct to activate it*

@bmstylee Ай бұрын

NOS. I need NOS.

@EndriuC Ай бұрын

How would you compensate for the increased fuel usage though?

@nytia117 Ай бұрын

@@EndriuCcarry more fuel

@EndriuC Ай бұрын

@@nytia117 Sooo: make the cars even heavier, behave worse in the corners and increase the tyre wear. But at least the engine would get quite a lot less efficient.

@jeff119990 Ай бұрын

Vtec yo....

@Selmerpilot Ай бұрын

The real innovation of this car was the front and rear connected suspension. It paved the way for Mercedes going forward with some fabulous cars, not to mention Schumacher sticking it on pole at Monaco. Schumacher said from the first time he drove W03 he absolutely knew it would fly around Monaco due to how compliant it was with changing direction

@Mrmayhembsc Ай бұрын

I do miss the time when you could actually innovate. I also loved the Front-and-Rear Interconnected Suspension (FRIC) systems they did in 2014

@corpsecoder_nw6746 Ай бұрын

started in 2013 but yea....they banned it for 2015.

@beefsuprem0241 Ай бұрын

The engineering shenanigans in F1 is always very interesting. Especially when the championship itself is not. Another great video from the House of Millward, Qaplá 👍

@RageousMode Ай бұрын

15:52 - 16:31 Stellar point. I understand why the cost cap exists but it severely restricts innovation. My whole interpretation of "Formula" 1 is that the team with the most ingenuity and best interprets the technical regs is the team with the best "formula." F1 used to always be about engineers pushing the absolute boundaries of the rules and now they can't do it. Great video as always Aiden 👍

@valerierodger 5 күн бұрын

They can absolutely still push the boundaries of the rules, and they absolutely do. The biggest difference right now that we are seeing is extremely complex cars and rule changes coming too quickly back to back. You design a car, you figure it out, you spend years with incremental upgrades, and when you are the point of getting as much as possible out of your car design, you have to start thinking out of the box and coming up with new ideas. We are only just starting to see this, and everybody is already having to focus on the next major rule change. At the same time, because the cars are so complex, major/visibly obvious changes are more difficult. Pushing the boundaries of the rules becomes more subtle and easier to overlook for the casual spectator (slight changes to the rear wing end plates or diffusers to increase dirty air, Small changes to the air intakes around the brakes, clever adjustments to the braking system, etc)

@corpsecoder_nw6746 Ай бұрын

The tires were also unpredictable slightly in 2012 (but not causing too much of a performance difference). Felt like in 2012, McLaren and even Red Bull were always at 99.97% of peak grip in any weather or track conditions but some random team (Williams in Spain or Merc in China) would find that 100% peak in addition to their own strong suits coming to play. It was incredible how closely people could follow through the middle sector in Spa that year. The blown diffuser was also banned (although McLaren and Red Bull used the exhaust's coanda expansion effect to still accelerate airflow over the diffuser exit and between the the rear tires and diffuser). So much for Vettel dominance, the team struggled to be consistent (in addition to Vettel's car having 2 mechanical DNFs, other bad luck or quality control or strategy oversight).

@thomas316 Ай бұрын

I think the most forgotten, and in some ways brilliant, innovation was Red Bulls Nichrome wire thing. For those new to F1 Red Bull had a system in the Vettel era where they had Nichrome wire running through the car chassis between the front and rear wing that kept them in position in tension. When you apply current to Nichrome wire it heats up and elongates which reduced the tension changing the shape of the front and rear wing. RB would just apply voltage down the straights and remove it as the car was approaching the corner causing the wire to heat/cool and changing the shape of the bodywork. When stationary or under inspection there was absolutely no way they could have known. That's why Red Bull always gets roped into any argument about wing flexibility.

@vinno97 Ай бұрын

Do you have any blog or video about that? It sounds incredibly interesting yet I can't seem to find anything about it

@richtemp6734 Ай бұрын

I've really enjoyed the video's lately. History of teams and cars can be hard to learn about (in comparison to learning about drivers and historic seasons/championships fights) , it's nice to see someone cover it.

@Zoidberg2097 Ай бұрын

I seem to remember the explanation at the time for why the double drs system was problematic was because it wasn’t understood during the design of it that the stalling of the front wing to reduce drag would result in braking instability at the following corner. It took longer than originally realised for normal airflow to resume over the car and create the required downforce, starting from the recently stalled front wing which affects airflow over the rest of the car.

@UncleKennysPlace Ай бұрын

Having stalled large wings (aircraft) it turns out you can unstall them nearly instantly, as long as you have airspeed. The flap on the rear wing gets downforce quite quickly. I don't think that would be an issue.

@Zoidberg2097 Ай бұрын

@@UncleKennysPlace It may have been a mid-season idea floated to try and explain why the Mercs appeared to have issues with locking the brakes after the drs had been deployed. Could be unrelated as I certainly wasn’t able to find any articles referencing who may have said this at the time.

@RobbertsTravelGuides Ай бұрын

Giorgio Piola is lituarly a legendary man.

@AidanMillward Ай бұрын

@@RobbertsTravelGuides I can’t even draw a stick man.

@oofyboi5357 Ай бұрын

@@AidanMillwardi wholeheartedly relate

@nolancain8792 Ай бұрын

That 2011 description sounds broadly similar to the 2026 active aero but with no part movement.

@ashooaway Ай бұрын

I'm sure via Aidan alone I'm getting a HND in mechanical engineering thank you and keep it up

@dazuk1969 Ай бұрын

That was really interesting, I don't really understand F1 aerodynamics like most people I suppose and had no idea all that was going on. Nice one fella.

@Jonathan-lh2cz Ай бұрын

The thing is I like Drs. Spa this year illustrates my point as it was said by a former driver that you'd need an overwhelming grip advantage out of "la source" to overtake. The way some teams get the most out of Drs is always interesting to me and it also means that overtaking isn't solely down to tyre strategy. I think it adds a good in-race caveat and strategic intrigue into every overtake as you want to get in range, get ahead and get out as soon as possible. It makes the overtakes in f1 more interesting to me than in MotoGP or other racing series because you're not wondering if the driver ahead will be able to break Drs range, and the driver ahead isn't trying to break an advantage from the driver behind it's an incentive to go faster. It is also a cheap and mostly effective way of reducing the impact of a team having overpowered engines. I like f1 racing because of how much goes into an overtake, the aero of the car, the use of Drs, the tyre strategy and how intense and fleeting it is because the car behind wants to get out of the dirty air ruining their tyres and the guy ahead wants to keep position and Drs is a major component of why I like f1. I personally will miss it when it's gone.

@marklittle8805 Ай бұрын

Well that double f duct was just too clever. Who thinks of this stuff? Really smart guys

@shadywhisper8455 Ай бұрын

DRS as a system doesn't create 'fabricated racing'. It's the fact that the driver in front is restricted on its use Let all drivers use all systems however they like, whenever they like (within safety reasoning). Deliberately giving the car in front a disadvantage has always been the issue with DRS

@orsomethingorno Ай бұрын

The problem there is that perma-DRS allows teams to run much higher-downforce setups (as the downforce gets taken off on the straights). High downforce = high drag = high dirty air (all other things remaining constant). I'd love to see a "dirty air envelope" approach to aero regs. Take away as many aero regs as possible (in principle, all of them; in practice, less) but find a methodology for quantifying the level of dirty air a car creates, and set a limit of how dirty the air can be at 0.2s, 0.5s, 1s behind the car. Teams then, before a race, submit their car shape (including wing settings etc) into a standard aerodynamic model, which tells you how dirty the air behind a car will be.

@shadywhisper8455 Ай бұрын

@@orsomethingorno hey I like that idea. Basically what this generation of cars was supposed to be, just enforced as a rule. Only thing would be how to test for that dirty air, I can't imagine wind tunnels would be long enough for some of the speeds they'd have to test at. Maybe, can't say I've ever visited a wind tunnel lol

@orsomethingorno Ай бұрын

@@shadywhisper8455 It would have to be a computer model, any regular wind tunnel process would be extremely impractical. Would need to involve some sort of routine scanning of cars -- how can you do this with sufficient accuracy, what if something (like an F-duct) is implemented that the model can't account for, what's the race-by-race scrutineering process to validate that cars are compliant?

@micodyerski1621 Ай бұрын

‼You mentioned the Mass Damper, that should b on all race cars. Safer over bumps! ‼

@Red_Bull_DieHardFan Ай бұрын

Just like Montoya said: Those (DRS and F-Duct) removed the art of overtaking

@freedfg6694 Ай бұрын

Yes and no. DRS has definitely created more overtaking opportunities in a regulation set that doesn't allow it. The PROBLEM is that it has created a generation of drivers that have become reliant on it and don't even attempt out driving their competitors. Everyone just sticks to the racing line and only leave to overtake with DRS into a braking zone.

@hamdanali2036 Ай бұрын

meanwhile in Indy they have Push to Pass but he says nothing.

@ItzAnonyms Ай бұрын

@@hamdanali2036well considering both the attacking driver and the defending one can use it at the same time, at any point on the track it means they still have to go for real overtakes

@freedfg6694 Ай бұрын

@@ItzAnonyms the Kers battles of 2009 were brilliant to watch if its worth anything.

@f.kieranfinney457 Ай бұрын

The cars began creating so much outwash, you couldn’t follow closely enough to pass. Hence the 22 regs designed to reduce outwash. Unfortunately development inevitably brought it back and we’re back to needing it. Spa was a clear example of where we are now. No one able to pass.

@Andy15678 Ай бұрын

Funny part is, i done a similiar diagram for Marussia in 2011 to saying them: Do a hole into the car from the front towards the rear without knowing this. Sorry i do not have the old email archived, but the plot was to make the pipe like ventury tunel. And i was doing it by improving the flow of the diffuser. Maybe they use it in 2012, because their car has been stronger. It was like a passive F-Duct in the basics, but with the D-Winglets inside of it and ending blowing on the beam wing or diffuser top side, which could create some extra downforce on the rear. So I was right, that piping could work good inside of the car. My point of view my design had a flaw of not possible to manage it, but i see that my idea which i really thought of from looking on the car and thniking outside the rulebook was right. Finaly i have a proof of concept directly in front of me. Thank you Aidan.

@Trendyflute Ай бұрын

2010-12 was a really fascinating technical period in F1, and lots of good competition too. I'm glad I got to watch it happen "live" at the time. Also I might be weird but I've always really liked the way the 2012 platypus nose cars look, though 2013 with the vanity covers and the high noses is even better. Beautiful cars.

@johnkling3537 Ай бұрын

the F in vodaFone - brilliant naming

@jasepaul91 Ай бұрын

The Double DRS meant under DRS activation, the car was more balanced as both wings were stalled as opposed to just the rear. However as you've pointed out, the benefit of their system only really worked in quali

@Nick_Kearney Ай бұрын

Aerodynamicist may as well be wizards. Also, thanks for explaining the Merc implementation of this evolution of the F-Duct with your drawings. I've never been able to visualise how it worked.

@larsriemen9770 Ай бұрын

Love your work here❤️ keep it up! just a little addition: Staling the front wing gave the additional benefit of balancing front and rear downforce. As you say here DRS was unlimited in 2012 so the mercs could set the car up in a way that resulted in two different downforce settings.

@beefandbarley Ай бұрын

That W duct is marvelous.

@caincha Ай бұрын

I always thought that the DRS roots were the flexi-wings (Sauber if the old memory ain't failing me). The ones that got banned after a huge accident in Brasil (again, from memory) But then again I don't remember if the F-ducts came before that.

@Jesse-s3j Ай бұрын

Bruno Senna casually choosing every line into that breaking zone.

@classicsportclassictiyl8547 Ай бұрын

4:03 on 2013 that was more on Red Bull pushing on with development of the RB9 after the summer break whilst nearest rival Mercedes were focusing more resources on the W05 which was the hybrid engine rule change car compared to the W04

@fantasticgobble Ай бұрын

Thanks!

@ALPHABYTE1994 20 күн бұрын

3:57 yea, my favorite gen of F1 cars (2010 - 2013)

@mrdraw2087 Ай бұрын

DRS in online racing is overpowered because the dirty air is usually not modeled, so the attacking car has the advantage of both the slipstream and DRS without being slowed down in the corners. In Formula 1 DRS doesn't guarantee overtaking, although I think it's too much of an on/off switch. Either you pass easily or you never come close to passing the other car. The 2009-2013 cars were quite special indeed, as back then evenly-matched cars could battle each other nicely, while at the same time faster cars weren't guaranteed to pass the slower cars easily.

@user-ss7xs9jx5n 20 күн бұрын

I always love your intro music... :-)...

@JohnSmithShields Ай бұрын

Same as DAS, Mercedes go to the FIA and check if it is legal. Red Bull blame the catering.

@Dat-Mudkip Ай бұрын

To be fair the DAS _should_ have been at least considered a way to get around parc fermé in regards to suspension adjustments. I'm still not entirely sure how the rules were possibly worded to allow such an exploit.

@alaeriia01 Ай бұрын

@@Dat-MudkipTechnically, it was adjusting the angle of the front wheels through movement of the steering wheel, so legal. I think Ross Brawn and the FIA were impressed by the workaround, and decided to reward Merc for coming up with a clever idea by letting them have it for one season.

@Dat-Mudkip Ай бұрын

@@alaeriia01 Isn't that adjusting the toe of the wheels, something your normally not allowed to do post quali? (And don't get me wrong, it *was* an impressive work-around.)

@shi01 Ай бұрын

@@Dat-Mudkip Actually according to the rules you weren't allowed to do any adjustment to the suspension setup after the qualy and generally when the car is moving except for normal steering. I don't understand to this day how DAS could be deemed legal under the ruleset back then.

@gonpala Ай бұрын

that generation of car is my favorite: go-karts with an f1 engine and big balls

@geniferteal4178 Ай бұрын

Overtakes shouldn't be artificially hard either (due to aero wake).

@MazLad Ай бұрын

A 'false illusion' is something that made my brain reboot.

@valerierodger 5 күн бұрын

I don’t think the cost cap has as much to do with it - it might limit the number of ideas that they can try on the car (i.e. They can’t spend an endless amount of money developing every idea that seems interesting and throw it on the car during a practice session to see how it goes), but it doesn’t stop them from bringing forward innovative ideas that tap dance on the edge of permissible within the regulations. Shutting down innovation almost immediately does have something of a chilling result - like banning DAS because to allow it would mean all the other teams would have to sink a bunch of money into coming up with their own version. I think making rule changes so close together has much more impact. You can come up with something innovative when you’re designing a new (or mostly new) car, but then you have to have a very good understanding of it before you make radical changes to it, and you’re not going to make radical changes anyway, until you both feel you’re reaching the limit of the design (i.e. diminishing returns) and it makes sense to take a gamble on something new. Now, as most teams, or at least the top teams, are reaching that point, and the teams come closer together, they are already looking at the next set of regulations and it makes more sense for most to focus on that rather than making a major change to a car that is going to be irrelevant. The innovations that push the boundaries of the rules that we see nowadays tend to be smaller and more subtle, possibly due in part to the ever increasing complexity of the cars and the limited aero testing

@Thunderbird1803 Ай бұрын

Keep up the great work!

@fantasticgobble Ай бұрын

Brilliant video my dude.

@km6832 Ай бұрын

All this innovation that fia took away now we have a spec series

@philbro1829 Ай бұрын

Great stuff A, thanks 😅

@connortheandroidsentbycybe7740 16 күн бұрын

Man, I'd love to see what these designers could *actually* do. Keep, like, the safety, emissions (primarily so they ain't putting out Super Cancer from the exhaust) & a size they have to fit in. After that, they could do what they want, just to see the mad shit they could get up too

@ibex485 Ай бұрын

F-Duct: Cheap, simple, clever, weighs almost nothing, super reliable (nothing to go wrong), admired. DRS: Heavy, expensive parts, can fail, tightly restricted, hated.

@minibus9 Ай бұрын

awesome video

@geniferteal4178 Ай бұрын

If the front f duct is initiated by the movable d. R s doesn't that go against the movable rules? I don't think anyone would disagree that The d r s (although specially allowed) is movable. And that is what movement initiates the front f. Duct. You can say the duct itself is not movable But the only reason it works is because of a movable exclusion to the rules.

@joshsmith7521 Ай бұрын

Fia said that's a great idea but we need to change it slightly so we get the credit for it

@formulafish1536 Ай бұрын

I’ll never understand why they changed the aero regs. 2009-2013 was almost perfect!

@maegor-targaryen Ай бұрын

The plan was to bring in big manufacturers and their big budgets. Hybrid engines were the ‘next big thing’ 10-15 years ago, and every brand was obsessed with them. And to compensate for the power of hybrids, the skill issue of everyone that wasn’t Red Bull, and the steep learning curve of car building, they reduced the aero. The plan utterly failed (aside from Honda) because Merc were so absurdly OP, and FIA had made F1 even more expensive (mind you, F1 teams weren’t profitable before 2022).

@PaperBanjo64 Ай бұрын

What I don't get is why didn't they just add the fat tires and 2017 wings to the existing cars? They already were breaking qualifying records in 2016 with the old cars, so the 2017 regs weren't even necessary! They just made the cars massive barges instead of the sleek nimble rockets they were prior.

@tombardsley3081 Ай бұрын

@@PaperBanjo64because of the turbulent air those cars generated. The wake with those was significantly more and made it harder to overtake

@darickbonebrake6774 Ай бұрын

Very cool. Thank you

@TrackAndBeyond Ай бұрын

Wonder if redbull achieved some kind of w duct last year and year before when their DRS was so powerful

@AidanMillward Ай бұрын

@@TrackAndBeyond there’s this theory atm that this technical directive about the brake bias has caught them out and that’s stopped them being dominant.

@TrackAndBeyond Ай бұрын

@@AidanMillward yea iv just been reading about that myself, asymmetric braking

@ianyoung1106 Ай бұрын

Aidan, you’re a poet and now we all know it….

@PlittHD Ай бұрын

14:50 Trash Control. Funny to me 😅

@ALPHABYTE1994 20 күн бұрын

15:58 they were beautiful

@m73m95 Ай бұрын

Wasn't Mclaren's F Duct said to be for cooling the driver? Air would enter through the duct and come into the drivers cockpit through that little hole. When the driver wasn't over heated, they could close the hole...which would, "inadvertently" send the air through the chassis and exit in front of the rear wing. Stalling the wing was just a happy accident

@Vegenks Ай бұрын

Nice marshall

@JohnSmithShields Ай бұрын

Being technically right, is the best kind of right.

@rambo_r3239 Ай бұрын

best era

@allainangcao28 Ай бұрын

The painful reality of DRS is that it forces artificial overtaking, and if it was removed, the naturally faster cars run away from their competitors, creating the issue of no overtaking. To make things even more complicated, if the FIA forced F1 to run spec like Indycar, the unique DNA of technological engineering designs are futile, making gifted individuals like Adrian Newey unnecessary.

@NBSV1 Ай бұрын

If they make the cars smaller and less dependent on the wings then they’d be more able to make passes. But, it’d also make them slower and they’re really focused on making sure F1 is the fastest.