A Guide to Workplace Inclusion for Autistic Employees (Autism at Work)

[@realDunalTrimp]

I cant speak for all auties, but for me at the work place my biggest strength is my work ethic and loyalty over my neurotypical colleagues

[@couchpotato498]

Same here. Made them hate me bc my biggest fault was executive dysfunction. 🥲

[@yorkshirelass8786]

I've just offered a role to a young lady who was open and honest about her autism. I'm here to learn more about autism and how I can support her. She was very impressive in her interview and her qualification shows how driven and capable she is. I hope more employers lose the negative stereotype and embrace neurodiversity.

[@leshaundagray5237]

@@yorkshirelass8786 you are amazing!!

[@Traze444]

All people, including people with autism, have the right to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health. And yet, autistic people are often subject to stigma and discrimination, including unjust deprivation of health care, education and opportunities to engage and participate in their communities. I am Autistic and I get Harrassed, Bullied, Intimidated by people who like to do this as sport...more needs to be done for Autistic Awareness and Understanding...thank you

[@JimmyJaxJellyStax]

Yes, I became more aware over the recent years myself and it's shocking most really don't suffering anxiety and pain all day / every day from even the most rudimentary neurotypical interactions taken for granted. Jobs often start on a great foot and go incredibly downhill after about 6 months - 2 years and the burnout, rinse and repeat. Always the culture, always the social aspect. The technical skills only continue to grow. But open up, stop being sensitive, introvert, shy, little whispering under the breath - I've heard it all and frankly life is too short to not find joy and real engagement in things that matter.

[@leona2222]

Same

[@etcwhatever]

​@@JimmyJaxJellyStaxyes why im so secretive, why i dont open up...heard it all. If i open up they dont like me off coursw

[@JimmyJaxJellyStax]

@@etcwhatever Yeah similar, I notice it's more of an issue in work environments - more competitive and vigilant NT engagement.

[@sayusayme7729]

Same 👁️

[@pw510577w]

I was with a company for several years, thought it was a good job, but gradually I began to realise that people were talking about me behind my back, spreading rumours and complete lies. I was doing my job properly, turning up on time, not complaining, fixing other people's mistakes, and yet I was the one that was asked to leave. And I was the only person in my Department with a relevant qualification. I don't understand. I did learn that someone was talking about me behind my back, spreading rumours and outright lies, and topics of a highly personal nature. They weren't asked to leave, or even asked to stop, or even identified, so I had to go to work knowing someone was saying these things about me. Who do you trust after that? End result, I talked even less to co workers, so then I was "aloof". It's really made me wary of work now, and I expect that any future employment could be the same. I liked working, earning my own money, which gave me choices, and feeling like I was making a contribution. Now, I dread working, and when I do get some short term roles, I get so highly anxious that I stop sleeping, which then affects my performance at work, which then leads to "you're not working out".

[@natem7129]

I got laid off in November and it makes me not want to go back to work ever because of how much mental effort it's going to take to start a new job and then keep it too.

[@leona2222]

You are telling my story! Same thing happens to me every time.

[@crptnite]

i'm sorry You had to endure that, unfortunately, it's pretty common 😔💔 If only toxic people were the ones who were forced to get help or be locked away from society instead... 🤔💭

[@Deadsea_1993]

Truth. So many jobs have been like that for me. I swear that as awful as it sounds, Covid 2020 was one of the happiest times in my life. I got paid to stay home and I could instantly feel myself decompress on a level I'd not seen possibly ever. I tell my wife that I desperate want to win the lottery. Not because "I'm lazy and don't want to work" but because I just want to not deal with work environments anymore. Let me be like The Bubble Boy in a work environment and you'll get your results, but work environments don't want to do that. They expect us to "behave" like everyone else and most are ignorant about Autism anyway

[@littlestbroccoli]

Same.

[@tdsollog]

I’m a U.S. Federal employee. I’m lobbying for more acceptance at my workplace. Thank you so much!

[@argledotorg]

The US federal government contract job I had was easily the most diverse work environment I have had. Not that there isn't room for improvement, but it definitely isn't the worst

[@garywalker9207]

Tiffany, I too am a US federal employee, advocating for the same. Maybe we can talk or email. Strength in numbers!

[@freecat1278]

The VA hospital is very diverse, it just doesn't function very well as a hospital. They might hire people with autism, but they don't provide treatment for autistic patients. I have four other diagnosed conditions which they won't treat or provide effective pain management. Know your rights & keep the ORM phone number handy.

[@J-Anon-]

Great. So everybody is happy & fulfilled at work. Does anybody care about the mission? Organizations, especially the government, are not supposed to be make-work jobs programs, but that is what we get when anything besides the mission is the priority. The USA has $33T in public debt. Making autistic people more comfortable at working a useless job is not what we need right now. We are in for a rude awakening.

[@J-Anon-]

Government jobs are a haven for the unemployable. Be careful what you wish for. If you want anything more than a paycheck, be careful about a cushy government job. Don't expect to "make a difference" or make the really big bucks. Expect a whole lot of people doing a half-assed job, because that's all it takes to keep the job.

[@isabellefaguy7351]

By far the biggest roadblock for autistic employment is HR, supervisors and other managers not actually managing staff. In my autistic 25+ years of working and all other autistic individuals I spoke with, ths same pattern repeats again and again. Some NT employee got triggered in their affective insecurities by something we sais or did. They got so destabilized that they start behaving very badly towards us, which we don't understand why, because we're autistice... so we react badly to being agressed for no reason and it spirals. All that time, the NT supervisor and all the NT colleagues see what's going on and they know from day 1 how and why we triggered the affective insecurities of said employee. But even if we keep asking what we did wrong, nobody will explain, the only answer is ever "you perfectly know it" (implying we're purposedly being a bad person). Everyone start talking about us behind us and encouraging each other to hate us. Until they all behave agressively towards us and either we leave because we're sick of the seemingly unjustified hate or we get fired because the manager is sick of everyone asking him to fire us. I was a business owner for 15 years and I did manage my staff. There was this employee that visibly had a huge need to be reassured that she was not worthless and would overreact to any colleague not saying how great each of her ideas was. Guess what, I didn't told every one they should never say when one of her ideas is going to cause money loss or unhappy customers. I worked with that employee on her hability to tolerate required critics of her ideas without feeling she's totaly worthless. And I'm autistic and was able to do that kind of HR management. But when I tell NT managers they just need to do that, they tell me they can't because they don't have enough competences in psychology and sociology. What a joke that is all! Would laught loudly if that would not condemn us to misery.

[@veerebel7112]

As an HR manager, I have a brilliant employee who is autistic. I'm on this channel to find out how I can make our workplace more inclusive for her. I completely understand how the common workplace can be so difficult and harsh to people on the autistic spectrum. It has to change.

[@maggienificent]

This was incredible. Working from home during the pandemic made me realize that there are ways of working that are actually beneficial to me, and made me reflect a lot on how the workplace doesn't foster a positive environment for everyone. Now that my organization is implementing a one-size-fits all approach to returning to the office, I have been struggling a lot with knowing that this "one size" does not work for me. They are claiming that it is "fair and equitable" and when Jessica mentioned "people think that equal is fair" it almost made me cry. I also really related to the discussion at the end about having to navigate weird emotions and politics and whatnot at work instead of people saying what they actually mean!

[@Allthepills]

Businesses want to make money - they don't care about autistic people, that's been my experience anyway. The first sign of quirks and compulsions I'm immediately alienated and eventually loose employment

[@chickenbroski99]

Yes this is how the world works. Businesses have to produce value and people need to contribute. Show your worth and people are more than willing to accomodate. I am also on the spectrum but I don't get this level of 'there needs to be legislated inclusion for me'. We live in a world where we all have to get along. People should be good and kind but nobody owes anyone a job or understanding by force.

[@Captaintrippz]

​@MokA True, but I wouldn't want to be prioritized over a better applicant for a job just so the Employer can hit some diversity threshold. Reverse prejudice is still prejudice.

[@anablackwood6141]

Same. I either get overwhelmed both mentally and physically to the point that I can't physically do the job (anything manual labor, standing/walking a lot) or I get run out by @#$holes and pressured into quitting. I'm actually proud of myself for lasting long enough to burn out and get fired on this last one (change in management, the death knell of a lot of good employees).

[@Allthepills]

@@anablackwood6141 at least you have a go. A lot of neurotypical people don't even want to work and are just lazy bums

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

Yes, and I do think in the long run there will be a continued interest in hiring autistic people as most of the necessary accommodations tend to be pretty affordable, and in exchange they get somebody that's unlikely to randomly wander off to chat with somebody in another office and mostly just wants to get their 8 hours of work done before going home. Plus, certain types of jobs were already mostly tailor-made for us.

[@vex1669]

"WIN People" would be THE acronym for "Workplace Inclusion for Neurodivergent People".

[@tinycitizens8988]

I’m loving this!

[@razredge07]

Very exploited in the workplace in the US. I tried to do a good job, but was given more responsibilities. Worked harder, got more responsibilities. Before I knew it, I was in charge of two facilities and trying to compensate for 20 unfilled jobs using custom programming to automate tasks while acquiring additional skill sets to do all the extra jobs I was saddled with, in addition to high masking for every meeting, on campus visit, class I taught, etc. After years of this, all I got was 2 years of autistic burnout and feeling like I was never good enough. It hurts to think that I put in all the effort I had and I'm probably already forgotten.

[@Theantinarc]

I have never been able to keep a job longer than a year because of workplace bullying and burnout as a result. This was before I was even diagnosed. Now I am an independent contractor and that's what I prefer.

[@dukethecolors]

I got abused and bullied even as an independent contractor.

[@chrisellis4400]

I've been in a new workplace that allows me to listen openly to whatever I want. At first I tried listening to what I thought the others would like, 80's pop and such. After a while I pushed the boundaries and stared to listen to emotion hardstyle and drum and bass. Now I exclusively listen to what I want to listen to. Mostly podcasts talking about my interests. No one is bothering to listen in on what I'm listening to any more.

[@enigmaticx326]

Not sure if you read the comments Orion, but just wanted to say that you have inspired me to finally accept my autism diagnosis and learn more about myself. I was diagnosed 3 years ago and was in denial about it, feeling like an imposter. Discovering your channel has changed that for me & made me realise this is who I am. Thank you.

[@amandamandamands]

If it makes you feel any better I once saw a meme/infographic that was the stages of getting an autism diagnosis in the same vein of the stages of grief and one of the early stages was imposter syndrome. I got my diagnoses approx 18 months ago and I have had a few rounds of it.

[@orionkelly]

I’m so grateful to hear that!

[@Captaintrippz]

Man, my parents knew I was autistic pretty much my whole life and outright blocked the school from getting me a medical diagnosis. 31 now and finally decided to stop pretending it's some kind of joke, the amount of clarity and understanding I've gotten just from youtube creators alone absolutely dwarfs any therapy I've ever tried. Still never got a medical diagnosis, which is fantastic, because people will argue that I can't possibly self diagnose.

[@stevenl1706]

@@Captaintrippzyou and I are very similar. 31 this year and found out I was autistic in April. Matter of fact, my mom was told by my kindergarten teacher that I should get checked out for autism or ADHD or something. My mom apparently spent quite a sum of money putting me through “professionals” who all had different ideas about me: _my_ _suffering_ was this, or that or I’m just OCD, and ultimately that I’m a normal person like anyone else but i might have some “selfishness” issues. Went undiagnosed all my life, constantly trying to figure out why I couldn’t make friends like other people. Why was I bullied at every single school I went to? These things would happen to me and I would be blamed for “upsetting people” and ultimately it was all my fault. When I finally realized this year that I truly am autistic, I tried opening up to my wife first who has at least tried to understand me. I even asked her what is so appealing about me that she has been married to me for 5 years and has had 2 of my children and (Lord willing) more to come, and she said she doesn’t know why she loves me so much and wants to spend the rest of her life with me. She doesn’t care about autism or anything, she just loves who I am, and I’m so grateful God gave me a wife like this. But my parents completely rejected any notion that I was autistic. My mom went on a diatribe about how lazy I am, how I don’t just “go along to get along” and how I’m “too much” for people (even though when I go silent then I’m not too much, I’m “too aloof”). It’s maddening. I have always either had no friends or I had just one EXTREMELY close friend that I would hang onto for years and years until something separated us. I thought my constant pondering and thinking and desiring to talk to others about serious things and deep things and true things was the problem so I needed to mold myself different (craft and put on a new mask). This was extremely difficult, I finally started meeting some people and even had a couple girlfriends, the second one was for 2 years and she left me. When I met my wife and she would actually listen to my rants and she understood me better than any other woman I was involved with. It’s been a hard life being undiagnosed, constantly taking different supplements or medications for disorders that I thought I had when it was the autism that was denied to me as a child and I suppressed it as best I could. I’m a 31 year old man who is starting to grow a few grey hairs, even all the hair that grows above my chin is snowy white. I feel like physically I’m 31 but mentally I’m probably twice my age. Everything makes sense why I always got on better with adults as a child. Edit: the reason I even realized I was autistic this year was after taking a new and better paying job, my anxiety was through the roof and I was constantly feeling like I just had to do everything they say to keep the job. I specifically told them I have small children and I can’t be a permanent night shift guy. My employer decides to put me for training as an asphalt plant inspector working 6pm-5am. I did that for two months and felt I was losing my mind. I also feared that if I told my boss how I truly felt about it and remind him what I said in our interview, he would “let me go” because I had come to find out he had been searching for another person for the night shift crew. I left them and found a new job while working that night shift, which lasted 3 or 4 weeks. The best part? I told them during the interview process that my wife was 8 months pregnant and she would be due very soon after starting, which I no longer had the PTO to use from the previous job. I kid you not when I tell you that they told me all was well and take a couple days off to spend with my family and new son. I came back after those two days to then be told that I “wasn’t a good fit” for them and they had to let me go. I don’t even know how to advocate for myself. I try and try and try to “act” neurotypical but it always fails in the end. It’s the unfortunate reason why my wife needed to take a remote job because she can’t trust me anymore to hold down a job…I can get them very easily but keeping them….different story. I can’t help it though! I don’t know how to change it! I’ve been fired by every job I’ve ever worked with the exception of a couple where I transitioned to a different job. It’s exhausting.

[@bradlarter8129]

The ‘mind ramps’ analogy has really resonated with me Orion. As a public servant of the government department you’re referring to, I was fortunate enough to watch your talk via video conference a few weeks back. As an Autistic person myself, it makes sense that the conversation around inclusion needs to shift to neurotypical people needing to make ‘people adjustments’ for us. As a late diagnosed Autistic person, I still don’t feel safe to openly disclose my diagnosis to all my colleagues at work. I will continue to talk about neurodivergence in safe spaces at work. As a Dad to an Autistic & ADHD daughter, I’m hopeful the pendulum of inclusion will swing in the other direction by the time she enters the workforce.

[@orionkelly]

Thanks Brad. Appreciate it mate.

[@sirtom3011]

I feel so sorry for autistic people. But thankful they exist. You are ALL very much appreciated. I will do my best for you all to make sure it’s not in vein.

[@Low760]

I enjoyed this interview/discussion. It resonates well. Yes coming across as gruff or honest seems to annoy people and results in visits to h.r. whom don't care and only want to protect the company from being sued when you get sacked or passed over for promotion. I don't think that's going to change. , I'd be interested to see how they get the numbers for diagnosed autistics working too. It doesn't add up to me. I'm pretty convinced staying undiagnosed or unannounced is the status quo in most trades, because you don't want to be a target. And that lots of self employed people locked away in workshops gave up on dealing with bosses because of the too honest response. But with becoming self employed, they have to find customers who accept the way they operate, normally because they are in a niche field. That was the best advice I had, specialise, gets rid of the "we have a hundred people lined up to take this job", but even then bosses who are autistic don't want to deal with more accommodations once set in their ways, Because there's too much going on. Very tricky.

[@Allthepills]

I don't tell most people I'm on the spectrum, unless someone has or knows a neurodivergent person they tend to have no compassion for them.

[@GeminiPlatypus]

"Only make the rules if you want people to follow them" Sums up working life in one sentence

[@michaelhyde-parker6344]

I am very recently diagnosed as autistic & ADHD, & for the first time I am looking at things very differently & am needing to advocate for myself for the first time at work, not sure how receptive they will really be beyond the usual words.

[@KarenCro]

@Daniel Macurs Your son will never be "autism free." He will always be autistic because he was born that way.

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

@danielmacurs8588 No, he's not. He may be able to communicate perfectly well and speak fluently, but if he's not autistic now, then he wasn't ever. That's not how neurodevelopmental conditions work. Occasionally, you do get people that are just a bit behind, but on the same path, but usually those wouldn't qualify for a diagnosis.

[@PlanetEarthLifeSkills]

Yeah! You are back!! Good chat, this one. I'm sure you are going to hear tons of "yeah, but ..." comments, and of course all comments are input. I'd like to highlight your guest's remarks about how we are at the beginning of this chance or progress. I believe that the more neurodivergent folks talk about their neurodivergency, and as more of us become in a position to hire others, we all will be a little bit better valued and appreciated for our contributions. Then, speaking up will be heard on different ears. I have two personal experiences: 1. Now that I am saying out loud that I am autistic, I'm hearing back, "oh my [blank] is too!" That is an improvement! 2. I've worked for the same company for over 10 years and I'm still paid the same $ amount per hour as I was when I was hired. I was brought in to establish a paper filing system for their small business. I now administer electronical records for 8 companies and maintain consistency across 25 users and over 100,000 records. I work from my home, as the records exist in the "cloud" and, well my autism and my other alphabet soup characteristics have discovered over time that I am best alone, in my wee little house in my wee little village in the mountains. My employers would rather I be in their offices, but I suspect that is because they would have me doing additional tasks. Luckily, they have not yet been able to replace me! There is a simple reason too - no one wants My job! My superpowers are very well matched for what some consider a tedious task. I find it soothing. With funding I would absolutely to be able to teach other autistics to do what I do, and work from home.

[@lorijoyhouse2064]

I have a few bucks and need a job.

[@sayusayme7729]

Thank you so much, awaiting autism diagnosis, have ADHD. Amazing podcast. Huge resonance

[@quentinmcsloth240]

The sad thing about the wheel chair example is that I have had several employers who were of such a nasty state of mind that they would still think ”why should I bother to employ the person in a wheelchair and put up ramps and such when I could just as well hire another person and bully them into doing better work so they would at least cone close to the quality of work that the wheelchair person could offer.“ of course they‘d be a lot more careful to not say these things in public and instead find other reasons as to why not to employ the wheelchair person 😔

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

It is worth recognizing while in the US it's illegal to discriminate based on the belief that somebody is disabled, there is no legal requirement that accommodations be provided without a valid diagnosis. The result is that you do get some protections as a self-diagnosed person versus unfavorable treatment, you don't get any guaranteed access to accommodations. The accommodations can literally cost the company less money than the employee has to pay to get the diagnosis that says that the company needs to provide workplace accommodation.

[@kathrynjenkins9183]

Beware disclosing a Neurodiversity to your employer. I did this twice as I was struggling in 2 jobs I have done and was asking for some very small, reasonable adjustments. One employer lumped an extra mass of work on me, increasing my workload from 50 to 200 customers, this of course tipped me up and I often wonder if it were done on purpose. Another, since telling them, doesn’t answer my emails, keeps me worrying about things for a long time, have become frosty, I feel like an isolated alien since I told them. And that is just their HR team, guess what - it’s a mental health charity! Organisation’s diversity policies are for show, I feel more vulnerable when I ask for a little understanding, there is definitely truth in the term ‘managing people out’ of their jobs! And it is done very sneaky, being autistic for me means nothing gets past me and they think I don’t see their methods. As for managers, lord forbid you disturb any of their hybrid working time!

[@HaveAGreatDay54]

One of the biggest things in the workplace that plagues me as an autistic person is when I am indoctrinated into the 'best practices' for the job during orientation then damned by my supervisor and hated by every average employee for adhering to them a month after starting the job. I am going to be one of your best employees when it comes to best practices for my position. I want to do my job properly. It makes me feel good and I simply cannot stand doing it any other way. This trait also leads to abuse. Many employers will just treat me like a robot and keep throwing more and more work at me until I actually brake. I have the surgery to prove it. Because of these qualities which many employers will pretend that they want, I am currently unemployed as usual. 11 jobs in 4 years. At age 45, I am done trying. Autistic mortality rates make profound sense to me at this juncture. No one understands. No one seems to care.

[@markschoenberger7825]

Why are neurodiverse advantages hard to sell to employers? Most employers are not there to empower employees. Their job/goal/focus is to run a business and make money. The easiest way they can do this, the better. 1) Addressing neurodiversity requires thought/work/change. 2) The difference in thinking will be a constant friction because we do not think the same. Our "base thinking" is simply different. 3) Business is grounded in deadlines. Things must be done in time or accounts are lost. Some types of neurodiversity have difficulty with deadlines. 4) Many businesses are based on small group work, ie social interaction. See #2.

[@Worrelpa]

love the whole professionalism conversation. So true. Apart from if you are in an external facing role Sales, Marketing, Ceo type role and representing the company what does it matter. Then again might as well hange that too :)

[@anablackwood6141]

I just got the sack a couple of days ago because I had an autistic burnout at my job and lost skills I previously had. The manager that initially hired me had transferred to another department and that was hard enough to deal with. She understood how I "worked" both in terms of actual working and how I thought and my logic. She could explain to me what I was doing wrong without making me feel stupid. Then she ended up in a different department. The "lady" who replaced her was terrible. She was very cold and disconnected from everyone, especially me. I tried very hard to get to know her. I gave her drawings (that's one of my big things because it takes a lot of time and effort), I offered to bring her coffee on a bad day, I offered to help on projects, and I offered to buy her lunch multiple times. She wasn't having it. She wouldn't make eye contact with me or speak to me. It was obvious even to a moron like me that she didn't like me. I made a (seemingly benign) mistake and got written up. I got scared after that and made another mistake and got written up again and taken off a very difficult task that I had JUST gotten the hang of. This destroyed every last bit of my confidence to the point of where I questioned literally everything I did, said, ect...and I started losing skills along with confidence and making really stupid mistakes like not reading things thoroughly. I knew which mistake was going to be the last straw and started crying in the middle of the office. When asked why I was crying by my supervisor, I was truthful. She said she was "sorry that I was having a hard time but I needed to pay attention more". Fair enough. She *was* right about that. But the empathy about just how bad things had gotten just wasn't there. I asked to be retrained--no answer from either supervisor or manager. I went all the way to the top to the CEO himself. He either was too busy, didn't know how shortly my days were numbered, ect...so he couldn't and didn't help either. By the time I finally got fired, I was so dysfunctional that I was forgetting things constantly, couldn't even do the simplest stuff that I'd learned on like day 1 of training, was horribly stressed, and constantly sick with both mental and physical problems. At first I was devastated (and still am) because I genuinely loved this job and the people I worked with. But that one manager...she still gives me nightmares with her cold, unforgiving stare and crossed arms. I will not miss her at all. I feel so lost. I hate the workplace in general. I wish I could just stay home with my baby and say f* it all. But we can't afford to do that. It's just so toxic. What was so funny is that I was doing my nightly coloring ritual while listening to this. When you mentioned "professionalism", I looked up immediately. This was something we had a lot of trouble with. One of my stims is drawing and I was told not to do it because of the "professional" environment. Someone anonymously made a complaint because they thought I was drawing more than working. I thought that was such a load of barnacles as I see people playing with their phones constantly and none of them ever got in trouble. It was overall a great company with great people but my LORD they don't handle mental health issues or neurodivergence with any sort of finesse.

[@unrulycrow6299]

It sounds exactly like my experience back in March, when I got kicked out of a contract because I asked for help from HR and they launched an inquiry about potential workplace harassement on my behalf, the ableist AF manager + client didn't like that and made sure to get rid of me. I was doing high level work while being grossly underpaid (10k below what I should get), to these days they still fail to hire someone to replace me 🤡 I take it as the whole event saying more about them than me. However, I'm still the one dealing with the consequences without having any help. In fact, my employer expects me to do all of the HR work for them like bitch who do you think y'all are with that level of disrespect and illegality? Rn I'm freshly unionised and will likely end up unleashing the local union representant on my employer because holy fuck

[@crptnite]

​@@unrulycrow6299that's terrible on both accounts!!! i'm sorry y'all had to endure this as well. Seems to me like there ought to be some type of reparations being made to all of the neurodivergent individuals who've been exploited in the workplace in this Nation for far too long...

[@markpw2613]

This is why when i apply for a job I ask about meeting the management team before i accept an offer. I usually know within minutes if it will be a be a good fit or not... i tend to judge this well. I had experiences like yours when my line manager would change and a new person took over and didnt take to me at all. The reason? Some managers get their positions through networking or nepotism rather than the ablity to actually manage people. They want to create a big a boundary between them and staff and their coldness is an old fashioned technique to gain respect. Autistic people tho will take this personally as they need reassurance and clear communication. Sounds like u need a boss who is friendly and supportive, which I do too, but the reality is that management styles like that are quite rare.

[@jsagar95]

Possibly the best conversation around autism at work. Possibly.

[@garywalker9207]

Great interview. Great content. Two wonderfully informed ND change agents shinning a bright light. Preenlightment is being recognized regularly thanks to these kinds of info sharing opportunities. I was Diagnosed adhd in 2022, and diagnosed Autistic in 2023, at age 53. I too was oblivious during my own preelightenment period, but Im aware now my “otherness” is ND, and since I know better, I too am a change agent, so thank you for this and other worthwhile efforts. It’s a beautiful thing. Watching from the USA.

[@amandamandamands]

I don't work and am fortunate enough to be on disability. When I was on unemployment I was in the thought spiral of having to apply for jobs to keep my unemployment but why would they want to hire me when they can just hire someone 'normal' and not have all the issues, it was a contributing factor for me qualifying for disability as it was having such a negative impact on my mental health. This was prior to me getting my autism diagnosis and just with the different mental illness diagnoses that I had.

[@anablackwood6141]

I feel you. I wish I could get disability. I hate working. I'm not lazy and I don't actually mind the job itself--it's either that I end up getting sick and I can't physically do it after a certain point or I'm run out by @#$holes or pressured into quitting. I'm impressed that I lasted long enough to actually get fired on this last one.

[@AllTimeFans]

I haven't been diagnosed with anything but working is torture to me, i am currently unemployed and the constant worry of applying and having to find a job, is driving me insane. I don't know what to do anymore because everytime i had a job i would burn out quickly and hit rock bottom fast. And it is also not like i don't want to have a job, i do want to make money and find a job that i like and that fulfills me but it is just very hard.

[@madelynpearson975]

My school had a mock interview where we were graded on eye contact and whether or not we fidgeted our leg or fingers. So many of the class are neurodivergent or anxious individual, etc, etc. The only thing I could think to do is to mention to the professor it seemed a bit discriminatory to grade on that. They mainly responded that we would get judged like that in real interviews.

[@folkingadams]

The irony, if that’s how they want to talk to people I would not want to work there lol

[@wilhelmfredriksson]

A huge problem with HR is that they aren’t there to protect you, they are there to protect the organization FROM you. It’s just more corporate greed hiding the truth from you. If people discriminate against you, that’s a problem for the company and therefore they will protect the company from you, not you from those discriminating against you.

[@mariusg8824]

HR is not your friend. HR is your boss's friend. Took me a few years to learn that.

[@joefromravenna]

My old job claimed it could not accommodate my wanting to work from 9 to 7 for 4 days a week, because it needed people in the office during business hours. Meanwhile i was in a support role that didn’t really require me to be there rigidly from 8 to 4, 5 days a week.

[@ad6417]

My spectrum 21 yo son is about to be fired from his 3rd job for lack of attention to detail. The anxiety is causing him sleep problems and makes his job performance even worse. He keeps to himself and co-workers don't like him because he won't join in with gossip and small talk. He's highly skilled in the building trades but can't pass the licensing exams. He doesn't interview well and can only get janitor type jobs. I think he should start his own business.

[@Vexorgthedestroyer]

I find the lack of workplace structure a continuous battle, and I've been thinking a lot about the need for available resources for those who don't know how to articulate or ask for the accommodations they need. Job description, KPI's, structured communication, clarity of instructions/expectations.

[@jmfs3497]

(undiagnosed 50 year old currently identifying traits in therapy.). I feel like it is a difference between Internal Validation vs External Validation. I don't need attention from others. I care about others and want my work to benefit them, but my interests and trust are in my own process. I don't see hierarchy as a descriptor of individual value... everyone has a job to do. This upsets people who are Externally Validated. If I want feedback I ask for feedback from the person whose feedback I value, not everyone and not based on hierarchy. This upsets people that I don't go "through proper channels". I ask clarifying questions so that I may please the most people as efficiently as possible. These clarifying questions upset people who don't seem to understand the intention behind my questions, and see it as a threat to their hierarchy. There are honestly few people that are a problem, but the ONE person that is a problem makes themselves as big of a problem as possible, and that isn't MY disorder that needs addressing.

[@michellekennedy9439]

What a fantastic interview, and comments I can relate to and agree wholeheartedly with. The passion you both have for this topic is really inspiring and has my brain trembling with curiousity regarding Autistic Canadians and how we have been effected in the work place (I've quit two jobs due to sensory issues and corporate clothing protocol). And Orion, I had a real crack up when you were talking out that work place scenario and said "he's being autistic"!! Also love your concept of Mind Ramps. Thanks for creating such a great and informative channel.

[@orionkelly]

Thanks Michelle!

[@PossumMedic]

Thanks Orion! This is a hard one to bring up at work! hope things change soon

[@DryadsBounty]

An interesting discussion, especially as a means to allow for progress for neurodivergence in workplaces. I like the use of mental ramp to identify the barriers for those that simply think differently. At my workplace it was determined through an audit that our work lacked standard operating procedures. When a supervisor was relaying this to me, the Autistic, he said it would be a success if the department could achieve 75% compliance to the soon to be developed…soon as in the next year or two 🙄🙄…procedures. I bluntly replied that’s pretty low for compliance! And he laughed and expressed commiseration with the staff who will have to start following the procedures (that don’t exist yet) like it’s a hardship to be consistent in completing your work?! As I looked at him I said “Ok, as long as I can maintain my 99% accuracy and compliance with the standard operating procedures I put in place!” He laughed and said of course and wouldn’t it be nice if more staff were like you. Damn SKIPPY! If they were…or I was in any position of authority I’d enforce gradually and consistently compliance to a structure of procedure that would work! Literally! But I can’t control anyone but me so don’t ask me to dumb-down my standards so neurotypical people can feel good about themselves.

[@КатеринаБарановська-н5ф]

OMG, this video is so useful for me! I always have problem to talk about my problems at work and a managment at work in general😅

[@Darthmiller1978]

"Bring your own ramp." Love it

[@daphniefarkas5703]

I like your example of a physical disability. I use this same tactic when trying to explain to others why giving me my disability accomodations in NOT unfair to others (aka neurotypical people). I have this issue in university all the time.

[@huhuhuh525]

I believe I might be autistic, although I haven’t been formally diagnosed yet. Based on my experiences and thoughts, it seems my brain functions differently from my managers and bosses. I tend to proactively take actions and plan ahead in anticipation of client responses. While these actions often lead to accurate outcomes, I am frequently told that I am doing too much. Additionally, I prefer to plan ahead and think things through upfront, rather than jumping straight into tasks, which contrasts with the approach most of my bosses favour (in multiple jobs now). This situation is exhausting, as I feel like I am being treated differently and singled out in a negative way.

[@abetterfuture2888]

I'm not diagnosed with autism yet, but I suspect that I might be because I can relate to so many things when I watch your videos. I've experienced that when it comes to work, I work best in small environments, few colleagues, a place where I can sit by myself and do my job and simply focus on what I'm doing. I've been at so many places where the environment is so huge and overwhelming, too many people walking in and out of the office, too much noise, too much stimuli and I always end up in the same situation after some time working there - falling into a burnout and end up not being able to work there anymore because they simply cant accommodate my needs. It has happened over and over again, and the few times I've worked at places that have actually suited me with how I work it has just been temporary jobs. I feel like the biggest challenge is to not only get a job, but also keep one.

[@lorijoyhouse2064]

Really good one~ Thankyous 🙏💖

[@Pupperoni938]

Very cool episode. So much information. So many ideas. I'll keep an eye out for DifferingMinds in future. 👍

[@s.b200]

Wow, this was a really incredible interview! Great questions & thoughts from you and great answers from Jessica :) I'm autistic and struggling with work-energy balance and accomodations right now, so this interview really helped me realise that it's not ONLY up to me. I kind of had in my mind that it's all on my own shoulders. But a first step for me now is to figure out what I need and if I can or cant work full time. After that I'll need to communicate that to my employers and see if we can make adjustments or not. I would love some more in-depth talks about work-related topics in future videos! Warm greetings from Norway.

[@CassiniProjekt]

"Professinalism is a farce" truer words never spoken.

[@alexanevin7917]

Very insightful. I really enjoyed it!

[@stevedryden803]

you are so right, working with a person on zoom, you can't look at them

[@MachineElf_Official]

The problem is I always feel like I'm asking for too much when I want to ask for accommodations. Everyone thinks I'm trying to get out of doing work when I'm slower than everyone else and I want to wear headphones while I work

[@anablackwood6141]

Same. I was made to feel guilty because the constant ringing of phones was a giant distraction to me.

[@xavieravila8093]

What a wonderful guest!!! 😁😁😁

[@MaxRamos8]

Definitely not fast food, it's a hellscape esp. When they choose to understaff to have at most 5 people for one whole shift

[@annacross6370]

Great discussion

[@MrAndywills]

Always considered I was trying to meet in the middle. Just feels like management still want me to go further.

[@theLORDGod_G450]

Great video. Thank you!

[@argent-kestrel90]

I'm yet to find any place that will accept me. I doubt society will accept us at all.

[@anthonyjulson8840]

Doubt it's going to be anytime soon sadly.

[@EmperorZaph1512]

None of this even matters when a good majority of us can't even get past the interview, unfortunately.

[@GeminiPlatypus]

*can't even get an interview at all. In a tiny city where 500 people apply for the same job, most are internal hires or nepotism hires anyway. My only hope is that an organisation will be desperate enough to go for that sweet disability package money that the DES uses to entice them into hiring us.

[@LunarVixen]

i just finished a 2 year program with a 3.99GPA. after two decades as a stayhome parent, I was the oldest, by enough to be a mother to my classmates. Many of them have been hired. I am on disability assistance, it doesnt cover my bills. I can only work part tine.. but im also divergent and don't interview well at all. there is still discrimination, no matter what the Hiring Managers say.

[@Rami7605]

Pls explain what GPA for non American ppl here

[@somethingsomething1395]

@@Rami7605Her gpa means shes literally smarter and more skilled than 90% of people who work in schools

[@Rami7605]

@@somethingsomething1395 I see ...

[@Rami7605]

@@somethingsomething1395 got it

[@GeminiPlatypus]

@@somethingsomething1395 yep in my experience as someone who had a predicted ATAR of 93 (the highest being 99.8), being a late diagnosed aspie you are smart and well-qualified, you're a hard worker, you keep applying for all the jobs and doing the right things that advisors tell you to do, and still get absolutely nowhere in life. It's maddening. And then eventually you lose motivation and become chronically depressed. At least that's what happened to me.

[@tinydancernyc]

Hello guys! I’m a 24 y.o. female from Kazakhstan. The videos on this channel are so comforting! I am wondering if you could suggest any online sources/clinics where I could get checked or diagnosed for autism. Thank you so much! Thank you creators of this channel!

[@anniestumpy9918]

I know it's been a while, but to anybody interested, I found the website "embrace autism" hugely helpful, they have a lot of self tests, and I think they do online diagnosis too.

[@shadowkyber2510]

Most of this seems to be about office work, it'd be interesting talking about being autistic in a trade/labouring. It's not talked about as much. As a side note ADHD seems VERY common in the trades, maybe 50% I reckon. Trades seem to suit ADHD people better than office jobs. In my opionion, in a trade ADHD is neither good nor bad unlike ASD which is more of a hinderence while working in the trades

[@jeannette7154]

Yesssss!!! I'm a welder and office work accommodations don't apply to me.

[@ChristChickAutistic]

I was a hairstylist, I miss the work, but I don't miss the loudness, bright lights, asshole co workers and entitled clients.

[@shadowkyber2510]

@@ChristChickAutistic I don't think I would handle being a hairdresser. This is unrealated but when someone walks in and asks for shaved sides and back and trimmed top, how do you decide what style to cut the top into? Do you have a default style you do for everyone who doesn't specify or do you base it off what you think would suit them ect? I assume you would copy their current hairstyle just shorter but what about when their hair's really overgrown?

[@sneakyfishiix8014]

As an Autistic person mom and cousin use to come to me instead of their significant other's for my opinion on dresses because they knew fashion is a side passion of mine and two I will literally always be brutally honest if I don't like something.

[@andgate2000]

Any job where your on your own....no customer face to face...something with your special interest...no office environment.

[@yorkshirelass8786]

The young lady I have just offered a role to has administration as a special interest, therefore for her the office environment is ideal.

[@dehn6581]

Being also physically disabled, it's not unheard of for employers to expect us to make out own accommodations and really, I find it very unhelpful when people trying to advocate for autism or other invisible disability perpetuate the myth that physical disabilities are so much better respected.

[@patrycjakonieczna]

It never happens in Poland. The only one workplace for us is... sitting home with the lowest income from social benefit or making pens, toys, etc. Which is more like hobby. One still lives like a begger. At least Autistics in other countries live like people not like rats... I believe in Western world situation is much more better. I am looking for a job for months and if I only could, I would move to the autistic-friendest country for living. Which state is it?!

[@patrycjakonieczna]

@@freesoulraquen Yes but I complained on fact if you are autistic you are less desired by employers.

[@etcwhatever]

​@@patrycjakoniecznaim good at pretending...now i just cant be at the office anymore...i had so much stress from people everywhere...i arrived home to cry, cry in the office bathroom, panic attacks...im on sick leave but sadly i think i will need to quit the job eventually. All the stress and every couple of years i burn out. Now i have chronic pain from an auto immune disease. I cant recommend my country Portugal as people are superficial and hr forces us to be the way they want. All the social bs.

[@patrycjakonieczna]

@@etcwhatever I am so sorry. I just also realised I cannot stay in some vocational situations, too. Now I am thinking about my future steps improving overall quality of my life.

[@andrewortiz5797]

Technically, every human being is neural divergent and each human being has their own Perception. Many individuals take one society's conditioning and they are those who think outside the socially constructed box!! I thought I was autistic because I have trouble connecting to others and my mind is always going fast and I'm always pacing when left alone but my psychiatrist said I don't have Asperger's and said I have GED and Social Anxiety disorder!; Mind you Ive been diagnosed as major depression disorder and Bi polar disorder and schizo effective disorder and ADD, OCD, etc etc. I'm beginning to realize that 'ALL' these mental diagnoses are limitations and labels!! I'm also starting to believe that Asperger's is just an invention invented by psychiatrists. Humans like to label thing's and place things in categories and by social hierarchy. I don't mean to be rude but Asperger's is just another label to classify people who look weird and dress weird!! Ive noticed that those who claim to be aspies dress different from their peers and have different values which is okay and fine but why do humans have to classify it and label it?? Each individual and human being whether they are autistic or not think differently and have their own perceptions on Reality. I personally believe that Asperger's is a label or an idea and we limit ourselves by placing ideas and limitations upon ourselves. Yes I've been harassed at work and gossiped about but I've finally began to love myself and respect myself that I do not coware at bullies. I stand up for myself and I talk back and stand up against bullies!! The other day I heard these people gossiping about me while I was walking to my car on break time. I didn't even look back but I rolled up my sleeve and flexed my muscles which are huge because I'm a hard worker!! After I did that they got silent as fuck and one of them as I was looking at them had buldging eyes that almost popped out of their heads. It was hilarious 😂 😊. Just because my mind always pumps adrenaline due to anxiety and I move and act weird because of my nervousness due to social anxiety, I always stand up for myself!! If people want to start shit with me, I will gaslight them and if they react to my gaslighting, I will turn it against them 😂😆. Always standup for yourself and Love yourself and never let anyone take advantage with you. If the world hates you, walk with your head high and be hated like a champ!! Self Love, Self Respect, Confidence!!

[@DeeDee-el8bd]

good for you!stay positif and respect and love yourself!😉🙏❤️

[@nicoleacosta586]

I know this isn't the medication video but it's perfect to comment here because I want to be able to get accommodations but I'm not being treated for my adhd and doctors are giving me a hard time about it..I'm literally stuttering over my executive functioning right now and ocd and I never ever stutter.

[@bandoupthebung]

I'm a public servant and I wish I had seen your talk!

[@Martin4Mary4Ever]

A distinction of professional environments matter. A high-end cars salesman must be professional to the end of making customers happy. Internal employees should not be held to the same professional standards because we have different requirements to be productive.

[@johnpierce2095]

i work at a grocery store right now, i do get stressed and high anxeity, and it is hard to keep emotions in check, when its gets really busy,. and all. why im looking for something else,

[@gracebediako8357]

I have same problem I’m working as an cashier I’m stressed and anxious

[@jasonneugebauer5310]

In my opinion the number of autistic people every generation is increasing by 5% because in the modern world we absolutely depend on having many many autistic people who are able to perform highly technical tasks that 90% of neuro-typical people are not very good at and don't want to do. If autistic people were removed from the workforce, modern society would likely regress as there would be fiew top computer programmers, engineers an the like. To be the absolute best at something that takes logic and reasoning, you need someone with an insane passion, determination, and grit (not neuo-typical). If we need someone whose feelings get hurt by honest answers and can be a lying yes-man and play politics, then we are going to need a neuo-typical person or a psychopath. To be honest, much of the time, I can't tell the difference. I'm pretty sure if aliens came to earth, they would think the average persons behavior was quite rude and backward with endles made up rules and beliefs. While aliens would find autistic people logical and willing to listen without preconceived bias and communicate with honesty and frankness.

[@patrycjakonieczna]

💯% true! I exactly feel the same. 😊 I find neurotypicals psychopats who always drain me up. Always exercise my patience and almost made me lost my mental health.

[@jasonneugebauer5310]

@Patrycja Konieczna take care of yourself first, and then you can help family and friends with whatever you have left to give. Here is my advice for us: I recommend trying to be cautious around others and avoid interacting with toxic people as much as possible. Seek the truth, and do the best you can in life. Don't ever feel bad when others try to manipulate you (it is probably them and not you). If possible, just stop the interaction kindly. Then, step away and take time to think rationally and understand the interaction as fully as possible to assess their motivation and your motivation in the interaction. Find the base truth, and then, with that understanding, take appropriate action. You may find that your initial understanding was wrong and/or incomplete. You may find they are acting appropriately for their situation. But appropriate for them is often in conflict with our morals and / or needs. And so, we need to act with courage, kindness, and conviction and do what is true and right and be at peace with our decisions. Remember, avoid toxic people. You are a blend of the 20 people you are around the most(on line and in the real world). Chose to be around good people, and they will change you and your life for the better. Thanks for reading my comment and taking the time to write me a comment. Have a great day.

[@jasonneugebauer5310]

@Patrycja Konieczna I forgot to say in my first reply a more grim comment. All the best psychopaths are not neuro-typical. They are a special kind autistic. This makes them scary bad because being autistic they can understand the truth that no one sees and use it for evil, to manipulate everyone around them. They also can read emotions on people's faces and project fake emotions on their own face. They are impossible to spot unless you look at the truth of their actions. The truth of their actions will show you exactly who they are. If you take the effort to watch and remember their actions, not their emotions or what they say, you will see the truth. Try this with politicians and community leaders. Try it with the people in your life. Some are good, some are evil, and most are just lazy and selfish. Our purpose is to add value to society. Psychopaths purpose is to leach the life force of society and bring it down.

[@CoreyShelton-bc9qp]

Too bad a boss can legally treat a employee with autism like crap and yell at them I if it was illegal I would had been sueing my boss in a heartbeat

[@zacklyons1284]

It is illegal. It’s against the ADA. You just have to prove that it happened. Get every communication from your company in writing (texts and emails count) or it didn’t happen. Get witnesses who can back you up. Talk to a lawyer.

[@GeminiPlatypus]

Feel that. And constructive dismissal I.e. bullying into resigning so they don't get hit with a lawsuit for firing you. It's grand

[@Bob-ln1jh]

If thousands of people want that job how can they still have the job opening?

[@orionkelly]

There is no opening. But there will always be people who want a job.

[@J-Anon-]

They're paying too much.

[@nazukeoya]

I would have to disagree about how to talk to people in the workplace. We should not advocate for speaking to people how we naturally speak to people, that’s a very self-centered view of communication. Instead, I think we all should cater our words to how the other person will receive them. That means the neurodivergent person needs to be less direct and blunt with the neurotypical person, and the neurotypical person needs to be more direct and explicit when talking to a neurodivergent person. This is the heart of communication, because what the other person hears matters more than what we actually say.

[@GeminiPlatypus]

Okay but how

[@nazukeoya]

@@GeminiPlatypus Give me a scenario.

[@rummagehill]

Hi inclusion... Let me not have someone stand behind

[@jandeusvult2920]

Indeed

[@MrAndywills]

Hmm. Just want to meet in the middle? Most neurodivergents have often been the ones to go further than the middle. It's tiring.

[@anablackwood6141]

Amen to that. Before I actually burnt out really bad and got fired recently, I was taking all kinds of LinkedIn classes and reading articles and scripting/practicing conversations and phone skills and so on so I could mask better. All I ended up doing was driving myself crazy, getting more scared of my boss, making even more mistakes, and eventually getting fired ANYWAY because of bad performance/too many mistakes. If I'd have known that was going to be the outcome, I wouldn't have wasted so much energy trying to force myself to be something I'm not and never will be.

[@MrAndywills]

@@anablackwood6141 Also got the 'We're all a little bit autistic' and 'We're all on the spectrum'.

[@djpatt81]

I fear work I from Uk government planning getting people to work from home to help those who don’t feel comfortable in workplaces but they not took into account support assistance at home to help those who struggle with instructions. I cannot self manage. If they use support assistance though phones or internet some us have phone phobia and struggle to use computers. None this was taken into account with our government decision fully they go though in tinted glasses with such plan of trying get disability into work. I have autism and fibromyalgia. Are government able to offer fairness to needs I don’t think they don’t know how they think equality but individuals fairness seems ignored.

[@etcwhatever]

Ugh...i hate talking on the phone. Im diagnosed with ankylosing spondilitis...it gives chronic pain too. Autism not yet diagnosed but it explains so much suffering in my life. Im sick of masking. I can self manage but even working from home...im forced to have a lot of video calls. Im stressed out of my mind and on sick leave now. I might have to quit. I hate the job

[@NathanBrown-z7o]

Fishtail palm would be nice.

[@magicjohn935]

Honesty without empathy is brutality

[@amandagarrod4537]

Is Jessica on social media?

[@orionkelly]

Definitely on LinkedIn.

[@KowlDoogle]

homestar runner

[@BadMotivator66]

Brighton is a lefty woke Mecca, yes