A Highly Improbable G4 TAM

Thanks PCBWay.com - Today we're swapping the G3 processor out of a SoNNeT Crescendo/L2 upgrade, and swapping in a G4!
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#Macintosh #TAM #PowerPC

[@Photo0021]

Apple should really bring back the dudes that delivered the Mac Anniversary in a limo once they bring out the Apple Silicon Mac Pro. It’s gonna cost your soul so might as well make it worth it.

[@Sevenfeet0]

It was a young Jonny Ive actually.

[@minty_Joe]

@Zaydan Naufal I don't think money is a problem for Apple; they can afford 100K to pull that off... unless you mean it'll cost the new owner $100K.

[@PotatoFi]

Dude. Your camerawork on the TAM's LCD is ON POINT. For awhile, I forgot that I was looking at an LCD panel and thought it was a direct capture.

[@SullySadface]

Pair that with the subwoofer and you can totally forget that it's actually camera capture

[@eejjkk]

A Descendents shirt two TAM episodes ago, now a NOFX shirt? This is my kind of channel.

[@Ralph-yn3gr]

Just when I thought the insanity had reached its peak. This is one of the coolest Macintoshes I've ever seen. Too bad the CD drive has given up.

[@jordananderson8299]

In the first video on the TAM I commented asking him to look in the Powerbook's CDROM drive and see if the parts are the same. Looks like he did not notice my comment

[@bundesautobahn7]

The worst part about BGA chips: Before you can solder them on, you have to reball them I believe. Reballing BGAs is the devil.

[@AGAMERTEAM]

You're right, you do definitely have to recall the chip

[@StevenIngram]

I say go for the triple boot option just because you can. Besides, down the Linux path at least, you may even find a GUI environment with lower processor and memory overhead and get even more performance out of it.

[@kbhasi]

Yep! I'm reminded of an old X window manager that was made to look like classic Mac OS, and I remember someone else did something similar that attempted to replicate Apple's 'Platinum' visual style.

[@YourIdeologyIsDelusional]

@@kbhasi I tried that newer one replicating Platinum... I still think Platinum is a great UI, even to this day. Unfortunately, it was broken in some ways, and I don't think it's going to be updated. It uses XFCE, which is a good choice since it functions like the Platinum interface to begin with, but XFCE made some changes that broke the Platinum scrollbar graphics and some other stuff, sadly.

[@fsfs555]

Plenty of PPC chips were mostly pin compatible: BGA 603, 604, 740; 750, 7400, 7410; 750fx, 750gx. They may need voltage adjustments, or a few pins may need to be pulled up or down to get new chips to work in older boards, but otherwise they fit on the same grid. The 750 is basically a reworked 603e with more L1 cache and built-in backside L2 cache control (the 740 was the same but without the L2 cache, hence its 603/604 grid compatibility). The 7400 is a 604e with the same treatment (more caches and onboard L2 cache control) but its big improvement was AltiVec. However, unless you're running Mac OS 9 (or X, which the TAM never will) and apps that are AltiVec optimized, there's not a ton of benefit to going with a G4 over a G3: the G4 is hotter and more power-hungry than the G3 while performing only marginally faster at the same MHz. You also usually have to reinstall OS 9 after putting in a G4 upgrade, or the AltiVec libraries aren't available to the OS or many apps.

[@RudysRetroIntel]

Excellent upgrades!! Would love to see the double boot or even triple boot!! Thanks for sharing

[@joshuasundheimer4218]

I had no clue that they sent an expansion cover for the back of it. Thats literally just so cool because I didn't even know you could do that!

[@bobfoster7771]

Love the NOFX shirt! Also love the descendants shirt in the last video! Punk and Old Macs! Awesome combo!

[@JeremyLevi]

Don't you need to install the Sonnet G4 Enabler 9 in the system folder to activate the AltiVec instructions? I'd also try rebuilding the desktop file if you're not seeing the performance increase you would expect. Maybe try using included "Metronome" utility to see if it's reporting the same wonky clock speed as the system profiler. It should also show things like bus speed, etc to help you figure out if your overclock is working as intended.

[@D0Samp]

Even with the correct enabler, MacBench 5.0 does not seem to use AltiVec anyway. It's pretty in line with historic benchmarks that integer performance is nearly identical between G3 and G4 of the same frequency while only (scalar) FPU performance is improved.

[@mauriciotonnera9463]

Congrats on this great video!! I do have an old 6500 Mac with the Credcendo G3 upgrade sitting for years without booting. I will give it a try now!!

[@jeffreybackes4664]

Thanks for the trip down memory lane, I have a TAM sitting in the garage with a G3 upgrade new in box and a 4 port USB card. Maybe when I have time I'll see if it still starts.

[@thedopplereffect00]

I think you should do a segment where you 3D print a custom back with built in fan mounts and air flow solution.

[@annekarice1587]

This has been a great series, I subscribed off the back of it! Looking forward to future series.

[@hippyraverocker]

Could you do an upgrade of an original G3 iMac? Would be very curious to see what the upper limit for upgrades on one would be.

[@IanC14]

Iirc, there's was a G4 CPU upgrade and I think you can add FireWire too? I know someone made a Voodoo GPU upgrade for the OG iMac

[@CodeProfessor]

Triple booting you say... Potentially terrible idea you say... You should totally do it! Thanks for all of the fantastic shenanigans.

[@userperson5259]

Pushing the boundaries of personal computing.... twenty years after the fact. Love it!!

[@richardwoodurff9186]

Thanks for the saturday morning shows, this one was awesome, as always!

[@Gojirosan]

Loving these TAM vids, many thanks!

[@gumbyx84]

You are a crazy man and I love it! Keep making these fun retro tech videos.

[@SonicBoone56]

Having the fans pointed outward as exhaust fans was definitely the best idea.

[@stgigamovement]

If you use OS9Helper, XPostFacto, and LeopardAssist you can get Leopard or the PPC beta of Snow Leopard running on this. Imagine running the OSes of the original metal iMacs on a machine that inspired them. Especially with the space background one always saw in those ads. If you use InterWebPPC, you can actually browse the modern web on that TAM in that OS.

[@sixteenbitify]

I would even be impressed if he could run ANY version of OS X on the TAM. I tried some googling and cannot find any TAM owner running any version of OS X on their TAM.

[@stgigamovement]

@@sixteenbitify people have ran leopard on Power Mac 8500s.

[@sixteenbitify]

@@stgigamovement Yeah, that is certainly possible. I have a 9600 that runs 10.5 Leopard with a G4 card. But the TAM is a weaker machine compared to the 8500/8600/9500/9600 and still haven’t seen anyone running OS X on the TAM yet.

[@stgigamovement]

@@sixteenbitify it's definitely possible, it would just be slow. But seeing the galaxy background from leopard and snow leopard seen in ads of aluminum macs would be funny on the TAM. Like the ancestor of said macs

[@BrainSlugs83]

I think tripple booting the Tam with BeOS is a terrible idea, AND I would like to see it. 😅

[@Matthew_Turner]

Sean you never cease to impress man! Love to see the triple boot!

[@cjsebes]

Absolutely do the triple boot. And bonus points for the NOFX shirt. I got to see them in concert about 25 years ago here in NJ at a really small venue and it was a really great show.

[@YoshAndSwrred]

I love your videos. Just love them. -SuperYosh from Unprepared Films

[@daboogersniffa]

Love the shirt, your content is fantastic. Keep up the good work!

[@robertchamberlin2362]

This was Tamrrific!!!!!! Loved It!!!!

[@stevencarlson5422]

cool keep pushing it farther !!!!!

[@vasya_cat]

pcb way also cam make flexible pcbs, you could probably make and replace the broken cd drive cable

[@maynardcrow6447]

Crazy build. The tiny fan was facing the wrong way. Your blowing out not in.

[@JohnSmith-xq1pz]

Apple secret police open up!! Oh its just a TAM never mind

[@alexandermcalpine]

Thumbs up for bringing back the tam, AND nofx!

[@ifrit05]

11:26 The 50 MHz bus on the TAM is probably hindering the performance of that G4.

[@Michael-Archonaeus]

That would not surprise me at all. After all it's two generations older than the G4, Apple weren't planning to upgrade this thing lol

[@XeonProductions]

With as smooth as some of these crazy updates seem to be going through on this machine, maybe it's a blessed macintosh instead of a cursed one.

[@mlthmp]

That fan is so janky.. and I love it!! Awesome

[@scott8919]

This design held up so well, IMO. If they reintroduced this today with modern guts it wouldn't look too out of place.

[@FoxSock]

l o l

[@vinatron8075]

I’d like to see how a triple boot setup would work nice job!

[@OrDuckVet]

Best episode t-shirt choice ever.

[@reidster87]

I've spent a lot of hours using my Performa 6360 which has a very similar logic board, but with a 160MHz 603ev on a 40MHz bus. I suspect the slow screen drawing when you booted with extensions off was because accelerated graphics extensions weren't loaded, not because the stock 250MHz 603ev was too slow to draw the desktop/Finder in OS 9.1.

[@davidstern3031]

I think a triple booting TAM would be amazing to see! Or at least an attempt!

[@franklincerpico7702]

Your channel is a hidden gem.

[@2009numan]

that fan you put in was actully blowing out of the back of the case and not sucking cool air in

[@JustinRied]

Welcome to the G4 TAM Party, Sean! Big fan, long time viewer! 😎

[@ActionRetro]

Woohoo!

[@zoopercoolguy]

I saw your thread on the 68kMLA. Pretty impressive work on your TAM.

[@JustinRied]

@@zoopercoolguy Thanks! It's been a fun project. Although I am extremely disappointed with myself for not initially welcoming Sean to the "G4 TAM Fam!"

[@amp888]

9:10 I don't know if you fixed it, but it appears you have the fan mounted the wrong way around. As it's fitted there, it'll exhaust air out from the case to the outside. You can check on the fan shroud, but for 99.99% of fans (and all Noctuas, AFAIK), the intake side is the one with no obstruction and the exhaust side is the one with the fan hub label on it.

[@SimonQuigley]

There's also usually a couple of little arrows molded into the plastic surround which show you the blade rotation and airflow directions

[@amp888]

@@SimonQuigley Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant by checking on the fan shroud, but I should've expanded on that. Thanks.

[@PixelPi]

It's a terrible idea, but I'd really love to see it! ;-) Actually what I'd like to see is FreeBSD 13.1, in this release they finally removed GCC and fully replaced it with Clang/LLVM, if you do an optimized recompile expressly for the G4 ISA you should see a significant performance boost.

[@linuxization4205]

Yeah, BSDs are lighter on ram than Linuxes. I would also love to see any type of Unix running on this machine!

[@linuxization4205]

Maybe even upgrade the amount of ram???

[@SenileOtaku]

@@linuxization4205 ANY type of Unix?? It's a PowerPC processor from when IBM and Apple were collaborating. Maybe try running AIX?

[@linuxization4205]

​@@SenileOtaku Never saw AIX run on a PowerPC mac, but go for it!

[@thechillhacker]

About the slower speeds at ~11:30, I ran into this on my G4 PowerTower Pro as well (also with the g3 upgrades). The system bus and memory speeds are what are killing you. To put in as a car analogy, you can put an LS block in a fiat, but you are still going to deal with an undersized transmission, poor gear ratios, small wheels, limited suspension and brakes, etc - and it will never perform like a Corvette. It will however, be a beast of a FIAT.

[@phreapersoonlijk]

Silly, and I love everything about it !

[@skpang8748]

Thank action retro keep providing such vaulable information about Mac. today I encounter the biggest discaster with my TAM. I try to replace the harddisk somehow the os didnot boot up and no respond and I try to recharge the battery and power on again. nothing pop up on the screem. would you be able to tell me why and how i could fix it . thx in advance.

[@zachwilliams2597]

apple system profiler displaying a highly improbable clockspeed is just your TAM saying "I AM SPEED!"

[@Dangermousejerkface]

TAM + NOFX = Hell yes!

[@MDBenson]

Sonnet Crescendo software comes with "Metronome" which is their own readout software for the system extension

[@sluxi]

Would love to see this running BeOS and Linux certainly. I used to run Ubuntu on a clamshell iBook G3 years ago.

[@Hamboarding]

I think it's a great idea to triple boot 🌞👍🏻

[@bryans8656]

I say go for a triple boot system. No guts no glory 😁

[@canadianman000]

Nice shirt. I got to see NOFX live in Halifax.

[@michaelmullett7327]

Let’s see that Action!

[@pooplips]

fantastic and consider painting the screen bezel black

[@TheJonathanc82]

This is a true frankenmac. It is both one of the most ridiculous and most awesome things I have ever seen. 🎉

[@anidnmeno]

Action Retro is the TRUE Mac Daddy

[@MrGardenofeden]

It would be really nice to 3D print a cover for the side of the Mac. Now it looks very hacky. Anyway, great job!

[@MegafOfficial]

Yep, please do the BeOS thing.✌

[@blairlohnes8103]

I also love NOFX and old macs. :)

[@chrisdunderdale]

Loving the Nofx t shirt there!

[@breestandard1318]

This video needs more Tim Tams.

[@willallen7757]

Cokie the Clown is one of my favorite songs.

[@danaeckel5523]

That is one awesome Mac. I would love to see the triple boot setup! Would it be possible to do a quad boot with Morph OS?

[@timothyp8947]

That was the first question that sprang to my mind too 😊

[@Gamerbay2017]

I really want to see you make a triple booting TAM!

[@minty_Joe]

@Action Retro , My guess is the PCBs you have in that box at 3:30 are to be populated with both a CPU and Coprocessor for a 68020 or 68030.

[@DavidStahlOLDHAPPyMACs]

Great G4 Upgrade Sean Herd Is tHe Man

[@plasmastorm656]

That Noctua fan is back to front, it's blowing air out of the case, not sucking it in.

[@mathijsdsv8780]

This works guys!

[@alextirrellRI]

What model is that USB ethernet adapter you are using? I had thought you were going to use a CommII ethernet card but I know those are hard to find -- looks like maybe a tight fit? I'm impressed with how much fits in there.

[@reybibleteng]

best youtube channel

[@stinkertonsden]

Ok.... now I really want one.

[@evibes512]

Would Doom and Quake run on the TAM or need too much RAM? I ran both on a 604e 9500 OS91 back in the day and still have the original Mac cdroms. Altivec ports perhaps? Dark Forces had a PPC release as well. Might be some fun games to add to the videos and compare the original releases to newer ports.

[@xenotiic8356]

I need to see a BeOS install on this!

[@SAerror1]

I wonder if you could order a new custom flex cable for the internal cdrom through one of the chinese pcb vendors, if you take photos of the broken one and get it scaled correctly it shouldn't be too hard to draw a new gerber on top

[@richfiles]

Yeah, this actually sounds like a great idea.

[@miketel01]

Tam stuff is cool yes triple boot it. Also replace optical drive with super drive?

[@RonLaws]

Could you explain the triple boot plan one more time? I'm a little blurry on the specifics 😁

[@syragrippa8769]

I dunno, I really like the TAM design. It's pleasing to look at, so I dig the form factor and I wish companies still made interesting computers like this.

[@jba2048]

When action retro says he’s going to make a modification to a system without any hardware shenanigans all I can think is, “what other shenanigans can someone pull?”

[@gtrdriver27]

I have a weird question/suggestion could you use g5's with modern AIO or Air cooled Fans after all, cooling tech is improved substantially...

[@IoIxD]

Did you try the 500mhz after improving the fan situation? I wonder if that helped?

[@inpurgatory]

With the better cooling, would it now boot with the higher speed?

[@Kyrad777]

Someone may have allready posted this concerning the Flex connector on the DVD drive... Since apple used existing stock parts it had to create the TAM, wouldnt that connector be in one of the CD-rom units out at that time, specifically the top loading one? Maybe there is a non working unit out there that has that cable? Just a thought.

[@organiccold]

Love it

[@GugureSux]

This is one of the old computers used in the Serial Experiments LAIN anime series. Still looks futuristic for a 1990s' tech.

[@raspberry1440kb]

Kinda true; it heavily inspired the design of the Child's Navi, which is the model Lain receives at the beginning of the series.

[@SkellyPacks]

I'm just now realizing the TAM stands for 20th Anniversary Mac... if you'll excuse me I have to go sit in shame for a few moments.

[@ShinGoukiSan]

Love the NOFX Shirt!

[@vaderexmachina]

we need the TAM to boot OS X even if its only 10.0

[@stgigamovement]

XPostFacto and Leopard Assist can be used to get even the PPC beta Snow Leopard running on a G4 before 467MHz. So you can run the OS of those aluminum iMacs on their visual ancestor.

[@technerd9655]

I'm not a Mac person (have a particular distaste for Apple really), but I do find these videos interesting, especially the hardware upgrades, BeOS, and Linux installs. I noticed there appear to be 2 cache slots. Is it possible to add extra cache even with the G4 upgrade installed? Would it even make a difference? Or would a dual G4 set up be possible?

[@rpissmrpissm2925]

When you boot with extensions off, it turns off the graphics acceleration extension too. That's why widow redraw was so slow. It wasn't the 603e.

[@rickkarrer8370]

Triple boot it! Also, did you try the 500MHz with the dual fans?

[@morecrappysketches]

I'd love to see some more detailed benchmarks as I've never heard of a L2 upgrade being swapped with a G4 CPU. Sonnet made G4s for PCI Powermacs and even made one for the x100 series of Nubus Powermacs, but there was never a retail G4 upgrade for L2. I wonder if it was a heat/power consideration. Or perhaps it wasn't worth the cost. Or 603e machines that topped out around 128MB of RAM weren't worth upgrading that far. Or maybe the L2 slot was too much of a bottleneck for the more demanding G4, or couldn't handle it well enough, similar to the faster Sonnet upgrades that would downclock the B&W G3 bus. Maybe we can now find out! I'd suggest something that can utilize Altivec as it seems MacBench doesn't, or does so insufficiently. Maybe Altivec Fractal Carbon?

[@Unirule]

Is there any technical reason you can't try to shoehorn early OS X onto it via XPostFacto? GPU limitations?

[@alerey4363]

13:37 🤣 you managed to confuse the profiler by making it report "about 544Mhz"; NEVER saw *about* in that report, congrats!

[@asgowraith8975]

Triple boot, triple boot! Also, maybe upload it on a Tuesday.

[@steveebay1]

The board you made with pcbway look like this board to get a 68060 to a 68040. I bought one on eBay to upgrade my Amiga. Haven't built it yet