A History of the 4D train (& future Double Deck Trains in Melbourne)

In 1992, The Met began an experiment. Known as the 4D, it was Melbourne’s first and only Double Decker Train. This video looks at the history of the 4D train, and the possible future of double decker trains in Melbourne.
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
00:34 History prior to 1989
02:03 Entering service
05:10 Privatisation and end of operations
07:01 Why was the 4D so bad?
07:37 Lessons from the 4D
08:25 Could/should we have double deck trains?
09:26 Possible physical constraints to double deckers
10:19 Outro
Credits:
Research information from
web.archive.org/web/200408071...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4D_(train)
vicsig.net/index.php?page=sub...
undertheclocksblog.files.word...
Photos/videos from a number of sources:
Sydney footage from Tassiebaz - • Sydney Railways-Last D...
More sydney footage from citytransportinfo - • Sydney CityRail Miscel...
4D shunting from Semi Retired Foamer - • SRF658 GONINAN SHUNT -...
Various 4D vids from Mikemeh - • 4D train at Hawthorn b... and a few others
Small amount of footage from Anthony Clarke - • Ringwood Croydon Train...
Photos from a number of different sources

[@sickoslater]

Kind of frustrating that it wasn't stored somewhere as a historical exhibit... literally a one of a kind train. Couldn't they have just stripped all parts that were unnecessary for static display purposes and given it to elecrail? Surely the scrap wasn't even worth that much? Such a waste of history.

[@Low760]

I remember seeing the photos of it being destroyed the week they were posted online and it frustrated me for similar reasons.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

Very much agree, I would think they could have at least saved one of the driving cars and put it in the newport museum at the absolute minimum, would have been great to have it operational but I suspect issues would have been ongoing simply because that's how it was in real life. But unfortunately it's lost for good now...

[@handyandyaus]

Would any of you have contributed financially to this?

[@cpp170]

Why aren’t they keeping the first batch of Comeng trains they just scrapped? I would have preferred that to these...

[@richardcostello360]

This isn't a "one of a kind " train....it's a bloody Tangara made by Goninian at Newcastle NSW 🤣 We've been trying to get the government for the last 15 years to scrap these

[@ChiggenWingz]

I still have the paraphernalia from when this thing first started running in Melbourne. Grandparents took me to Findlers St station where their first allowed public to ride it, it was just doing laps around the loop at the time. You have to remember the Comenge was the peak of tech in Melbourne, so to have this thing that had automatic opening doors, beeps and boops to indicate when doors closed or opened, and also super clean seats, it blew a young train nerd's mind. I even got to ride in its cab with the driver as my father knew one of the MET's drivers at the time, and I got to see it all work. I was so sad when they decided to scrap it, being only in my 20s, I had no clout or experience on how to possible find a way to save it, but yeah. And no matter what anyone says, its still Melbourne's Tangara :P

[@richardcostello360]

Buddy if you had to ride these uncomfortable sweatboxes for the last 15 years you'd change your tune...... consider yourself lucky that your government didn't purchase these tin cans

[@drdewott9154]

This is very interesting. Especially for me from Denmark as double decker trains of the same time almost ended up running on suburban train services in Copenhagen, Denmark. During a tender in the 90's the Danish state railways were looking for a new generation of rolling stock for the city's subway like "S train" system. The main requirements were that they should be able to offer substantially more capacity than existing units, whether that be by wider trains or double decker units. Goninan, in a consortium with a Danish firm, were one of three entrants in the tender, in which they pitched a version of the Tangara sets modified for use in Copenhagen (which would require very few changes to the original design) and which would be built at a new factory in the city. Their competitors were the renowned Danish train builder Scandia who had designed the previous generations of trains, and finally the only completely international bid from a consortium of Siemens and Linke Hoffman Busch from Germany. They were ultimately the consortium who won and now Copenhagen is full of the single axle, extra wide, hamstercheek trains they designed. But its weird to think if things had gone slightly different that the rail network of a major Scandinavian city would be full of Tangara trains now.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

I've never heard of that before, thanks for sharing. It certainly would have been interesting to have two sets of identical trains on the complete opposite sides of the world!

[@meikahidenori]

I absolutely loved this train. I rode it several times in my early teens with the girl guides & my school city trips when it was on the Lilydale line. I wish I took photos now, such a fun train and such a shame they never put them into full service here in Melbourne.

[@WillJamesRailways]

Great stuff! A real shame the 4D couldn’t go to preservation! I have some great memories of seeing it in the late 90’s early 00’s!

[@MetroManMelbourne]

Very much agree, would have been great to at least keep it statically somewhere. Thankfully there's footage online but it's not the same.

[@griffinrails]

Something interesting (but possibly untrue, this was just on WIkipedia for many years and went unsourced) about Railcorp's acquisition of this train: They were planning on introducing it on the Blue Mountains line. (ALLEGEDLY they were planning on running services between Springwood and Lithgow, since due to the train's smaller dimensions it would be able to run through the infamous Zig Zag "Rathole" tunnels. However, due to a lack of funds (and since railcorp was so corrupt ICAC had to bust them lol) it never happened and it was used for spares.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

I had heard about that, and was going to include it - but after looking it up I couldn't find anything on it. I wouldn't have been surprised if that was _originally_ the intention, but after finding how unreliable it was, RailCorp just scrapped it in the end.

[@TrainzForNSWVlogs]

@@MetroManMelbourne They may convert a Tangara in the future!

[@rogue265]

The 4D was an abject failure because of the need for compatibility with the Comeng trains. The reliability issues are purely because of that compatibility requirements as you noted. Even today the T sets in Sydney are the most reliable trains in Sydney - even after 34 years... Interestingly some of the modifications made for the 4D were used for the G set final sets in Sydney. These trains would have been very successful on the Pakenham and Cranbourne lines - where seats are much more valuable because of their distance - As you said correctly long distance trains seats are more valuable over capacity... It's actually why the Pakenham/Cranbourne to Sunbury was the one of the worst combinations for MM1. Interestingly from observations, the Siemens and Sydney trains have around the same dwell times - because they have the same width doors, and the T set trains have the shortest dwell times in Sydney.

[@iannosworthy1529]

A very logical analysis. The double decker service to Gosford in NSW for example works well because it often is a limited express in early parts of the journey thereby reducing set down delays

[@ColdestDay]

"well and truly out of 4d footage" sums up the whole experiment really. Chances are if you didn't live on the Belgrave/Lilydale you'd probably have no idea it ever existed. I remember getting on it once, don't remember what it was like however

[@zoomosis]

I got to ride on the 4D a couple of times. Once when it was doing shuttles around the City Loop, where it was all shiny and new and so got quite a lot of attention. But being a tall guy, compared to the Comeng and Hitachis the 4D was pretty cramped and somewhat claustrophobic. Though it was nice to have seats with full back support. The ride quality of the 4D was fantastic, only rivaled by the Siemens sets years later. It's baffling how the X'Trapolis bounce around so much in comparison. My second memory of the 4D was a few years later when I happened to board it heading towards Ringwood. Travelling with my mountain bike it was actually a pretty poor experience since there was nowhere to actually stand the bike that didn't get in the way of the stairs, or the passageway between carriages. And it was completely impractical to bring the bike into the seated section where I could sit somewhere and hold the bike. I suspect the Sydney Tangaras may have the same problem. The 4D was an interesting train but it was only ever meant for testing, and it would've been increasingly difficult to find parts for it to keep going so I'm not surprised it was ultimately scrapped. Scrapping it may also have been somewhat of a political statement to discourage the possibility of any future double-deck trains. A few friends from Sydney have told me they actually prefer the "openness" of Melbourne's trains compared to Sydney's double-deckers. I suspect women in particular may feel somewhat safer since the entire carriage interior is visible.

[@deathandcats]

Having lived in Sydney for about 5yrs, and catching the train almost every day, I can confirm. The openness of Melbourne's trains are much less anxiety-inducing.

[@richardcostello360]

Honestly Melbourne trains are freaking awesome compared to the tin cans up in NSW We have only one type of train that's a "one level" type and it only runs along the Hunter line unfortunately

[@iwenttobunnings7868]

​@@richardcostello360Interestingly, I find trains in Sydney to be a lot better than the soulless trains we have in Brisbane (besides the SMU220). I'd gladly take a Tangara or Waratah over an NGR or 260.

[@WilDBeestMF]

The X'Crapolis trains really....aren't good. They are cheaply built in comparison to Hitachi and Comeng and have all kinds of suspension issues leading to the bouncy ride, and good luck getting them to grip the rails on a wet day. I hope the 2.0 are way better than the first ones.

[@TrainzForNSWVlogs]

@@iwenttobunnings7868 I guess its the gauge and there is a lot of overhang on each sides of the track.

[@NicholassTrainChannel]

Nice video mate. A double decker train in Vic would be cool to see but as you said it will require upgrading of bridges and tunnels which costs money. But maybe a double decker DMU for the regional lines would be a good idea.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

That would be cool, lines like Geelong and Ballarat could definitely justify double deckers.

[@electro_sykes]

@@MetroManMelbourne double deckers don't work, even in Sydney, they now regret it.

[@TrainzForNSWVlogs]

@@electro_sykes Than how come they're ordering the NIF and extra Waratahs. Plus they work on long distance routes.

[@electro_sykes]

@@TrainzForNSWVlogs even more Waratahs, the first wer delivered more than 10 years ago, the design has got to be starting to become a little dated by now

[@TrainzForNSWVlogs]

@@electro_sykes I mean the B Sets were ordered during the time where they 'Regretted' Double deckers.

[@Taitset]

Great video! I saw it running once when I was a kid. I tried to ride it in about 2001 when it was on that fixed timetable, but I was too late, it was a Comeng that day and i never saw it moving again.

[@Alexander_Dunn]

Thanks, i didn't know too much about the 4D until now, great work mate

[@ANTALIFE]

Thanks for gathering up all this footage!

[@MetroManMelbourne]

No problem, there's undoubtedly more out there but so much will have just been lost.

[@phil4977]

Excellent report. You taught me a few things

[@anthonyxuereb792]

I remember climbing aboard for the first time and if memory serves me right, I had to step down to access the (lower) seats. I guess this was necessary to keep the overall height within practical limits, something similar to the double stack container rail cars where the lower container is semi submerged. and close to the rail bed. There would have been room for preservation at Newport but that would have been too much hard work for the decision makers, "just get rid of the bloody thing!"

[@lozzieelizadesigns05]

Oh nice I never knew they quickly tested a double decker for Melbourne, I love the Sydney ones from someone which gets the country nsw trains

[@FromtheWindowSeat]

Great video. What a fascinating history!

[@drewfoster4607]

Loved this! Great video

[@brianmiles780]

Your videos are always thoroughly researched, highly informative and professionally narrated. Thanks dude!

[@lachmack8967]

Great video, being born in 1984 and always lived along the Lilydale and Belgrave line it was exciting as a kid to get on the 4D

[@letsseeif]

Thank you so much for this fascinating video review. I've lived in Melbourne for all but one year of my life and always thought the reason why Melbourne didn't run double decker trains was because the bridge were mostly built too low. thanks again. and keep up the good work.

[@pauloconnor2980]

@2:29- nice shot of a match wagon between the loco and the new train!!!!!!

[@theduggans1]

Thanks for such an informative video.

[@philipmallis]

Great topic and interesting video, thanks!

[@Falkirion]

Interesting, knew Vic ran the double decker experiment but never understood why it was canned. Dwell time constraints makes sense. Off topic, I've worked with one of the blokes whose photos you used. Good guy, knows his signalling systems and was a great mentor when I started in rail years ago.

[@Techno-Universal]

Also double deck rolling stock might be a possible solution for increasing capacity on existing regional routes that are in serious need of more capacity! :)

[@joshrouch]

Very good video, Would be very interesting to see a double decker train run on a vline service, maybe to Geelong or Ballarat!

[@griffinrails]

tarneit tangara 🥶🥶🥶

[@MetroManMelbourne]

I certainly think that would be worth investigating, NSW does it well with electric double deckers on their interurban services and I think we could apply that model in VIC with only some new trains (don't even need to electrify everything).

[@johnblood3367]

Awesome video 👍

[@pandymoose]

Great video!

[@andreagriffiths3512]

I rode it a few times and really loved it. I always tried to get a seat on the upper deck because the lower deck was below the platform level and the one time I sat there I got claustrophobic. It’s one train I miss. The red and blue ones likewise missed. Used to hang out the doors on those and it was great fun…not safe mind you, but fun nevertheless

[@Lachtrain]

Very interesting video Metro

[@DomQuartuccio]

Nice work on a very well researched video, I do suggest you maybe slow the narration as it's a bit fast in some places. Keep up the good work!

[@DUCKVILLELOL]

Cool video, thanks. Agree with your point about double decker vline

[@Cgvgggggghghghhghhgfbj]

Awesome video

[@trains4361]

Yes definitely

[@wasupdoc1738]

I remember this train when i was in my youth. My sister would take it for Swinburne tafe and i so wanted to take it too, i was so fascinated by it, but because i didn't need to as my destination was North Melbourne i missed out. I would think of them quiet a lot, what it was like etc. Now I'm in Sydney where the norm is double decker trains 😂

[@zoomosis]

Not often mentioned is that the 4D's lower deck windows lined up level with the platform, so you were staring at people's legs as you pull into the station. Because of the low angle, station signage wasn't necessarily visible so it could be difficult to recognise your stop. Of course this was a time before in-carriage PIDs, PA announcements and GPS. Conceivably the lower decks of 4D carriages may have made passengers more vulnerable in vehicle collisions at level crossings. This isn't really an issue in Sydney where there are very few level crossings.

[@TrainzForNSWVlogs]

They were actually meant to install PIDS on the Tangaras however due to some delays and issues with ComEng who were attempting to sue the government for giving their designs to Goninian they didn't install PIDS and the Tangara came out a few years latter. Also they needed to refurbish the K Sets so the money for the Tangara PIDS was transferred to that as they needed more fully air conditionned trains to do the Olympic Park Services. If the Tangaras did have PIDS than the 4Ds probably would have them.

[@aspiewithattitude3213]

My last night in Sydney, I only had one ride on the Tangara this time practising crystal meditation on the train. As a die hard fan of the Melbourne 4D, I had been also riding the Sydney Metro since it's all single deck. After completing the whole line between Tallawara and Chatswood, the train itself was all the same at the Melbourne HCMT, once I get back to Melbourne on the 28th August 2023, the first train I will get is the HCMT this will only then bring back the Melbourne 4D trains. The HCMT in Melbourne was built in China, that's why I had an awesome time at the Darling Harbour Chinese Friendly Gardens. The Sydney Metro train was built by the same mob who built the Melbourne's Xtrapolis 100. Melbourne will always still run their 4D/Tangaras.

[@darylcheshire1618]

I remember there was a proposal to run a 520 from Adelaide on a special, the VR attached a timber frame to a rail tractor (RT) and ran it along the proposed route overnight where the frame contacted several platforms and other bits and so it was decided that it could not run. At least the VR ran the rail tractor rather than knock it on the head.

[@listohan]

The dwell time issue is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Crowding around the doors is felt mostly, if not exclusively, at a couple of stations in peak hours. These stations and times are a small percentage of the numbers of places on the network or hours in the day yet the issue constantly trumps the small matter of passenger comfort thanks to a greater number of seats facing the direction of travel for the duration of a (long) journey.

[@granthogden4732]

I remember often trying to find out where the 4d train was in hopes of catching it. And I was a little saddened when I heard that it was scrapped. I hoped they would be able to have more of them to deal with the crowded single decker trains during peak hour. But hopefully the new hcmt system helps with that

[@diltonweany7003]

Would be interesting to consider double deckers for the suburban rail loop, since it has comparatively few stations on it, potenially allowing for longer dwell times. That being said a lot of those stops are meant to be transfer hubs, so bottlenecks at doors wouldn't be ideal. Not sure if the tunnel's could handle them anyway.

[@74_pelicans]

No way, they'll be smaller trains, with faster speeds, built to run more often than more comfortably. If the project ever gets built 😜

[@Skasaha_]

I rode on it a few times when I was young, but it was so infrequently in service it was like seeing a unicorn. Literally, I suppose. I'm pretty sure only Geelong and it's shorter cousin the Wyndham Vale/Tarneit trains could justify double decked DMUs, which is probably a bit specific given the whole network would operate with two types of train if they could.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

I'd say Ballarat could perhaps justify double deckers too, but for the mean time it would be great to get a fully AC electrified, double-decker operated Geelong line. Wyndham Vale would be better off as a single deck, 10-car HCMT service.

[@TheDemocrab]

I think the main area that a double-deck train could work would be high-throughput but not too long rural lines. Wouldn't need many of them, but I'd wager it'd be good for lines such as Geelong and Ballarat especially if it meant some of the existing vlo's could be switched over to the long-distance setup for the more distant regional centers.

[@therealsammyvee888]

Great video, very informative. Thanks. Shame the 4D didn't work out. Wouldn't it be cool to have double decker trains in Melbourne? I went to Sydney recently and was in such awe of their train network and how much better than Melbourne's it is, in my opinion.

[@user-tm4bi1nl4q]

We do our best!

[@peterjones3557]

The Rail Tourist Association Inc. hired and operated a 'fan' trip to Pakenham and Bunyip ( the furthest we were allowed), with photo stops and a trip through the City Circle, in August 1996. The 48 passengers were spoilt for choice in the seating.

[@uzaiyaro]

Double deck trains might actually be really good up here in Brisbane. Basically all lines are relatively long, some being extremely long, taking about two hours to make a single run. Many of these trains run express, and there are additional local trains running on the same lines. But I think the idea here is longer trains (from the current six to nine cars) instead of double deckers.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

It would make a lot of sense to put double deckers on some lines, for example, Beenleigh-Gold Coast, Caboolture, Ipswich etc but on the other hand some other lines like Ferny Grove and Shorncliffe work well with single deckers. Should definitely be investigated.

[@robbiesheppard3280]

I travelled in this train it was great 👍

[@robbieberry9700]

I used to love riding this train

[@KJB1331]

I worked for the railways at the time this train was introduced and my recollection was that the train was in some way linked to the bicentenary in 1988 and was at least partially, if not wholly, funded by the federal government.

[@TrainsForNSWVlogs]

Sydney also had an unsuccessful Double Decker Train (Tulloch Power Cars) It didn't work but still the tried agagin and developed the V set and S set after it.

[@aspiewithattitude3213]

Watching this on the Sydney Tangara

[@L9MN4sTCUk]

It was usually only half the train. Traveling home from school on the Lilydale line when the 4d train appeared all the school travelers would quickly run down to the half of the platform where the 4d would open its doors. It was like riding in a space shuttle from a sci-fi movie.

[@BruzoDragonius]

This train is basically a tangara but of a different name I noticed. But the only difference is that there was no glass panels between the 2 stories like the tangara usually has. Even the body shape screems tangara.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

It's got quite considerable differences if you account for the electronics, not to mention it's neither the same width nor height. Externally looks the same though.

[@Brianrockrailfan]

great yet sad video

[@Bubba_gaming1]

Great idea with huge potential even to decongest the CBD and the city loop and could be a great sister locomotive for the hcmt in the metro tunnel!

[@TrainsForNSWVlogs]

Imagine if VLine bought some V Sets from Sydney to operate their Standard Gauge Services. Then convert the Power Cars to Driving Trailers and remove the pantograph. Then get a bunch of trailers and couple them together. Get you locomotive and you have a Double Decker Train with a cab at the other end.

[@melbournemetrotrainsvlogs9401]

I think that the Tangaras were much better than the 4D personally, because I think it operates a bit faster, cheaper to run, faster express services and it even can be refurbished. Very nice explainer

[@MetroManMelbourne]

Thank you! I've rode the Tangaras a couple of times in Sydney and personally quite like them, they are a very unique train.

[@koharumi1]

problems: they don't have a display saying which station they will be stopping at. You have to hear it instead... and the seats aren't switchable.

[@richardcostello360]

Problem: 1 PA system is tinny so you can't hear annoucements 2 No display board so you haven't a clue where your going 3 seats aren't moveable (pre and post Tangara sets have movable seats) 4 stairs are impossible to use while train is in motion because they're freaking tiny 5 air-conditioning is set "at the depot" so it's either freezing or hot and humid usually 6 upstairs windows aren't "camera friendly" due to the curved double glazing

[@tropictrains8956]

@@koharumi1 thats the goverment is trying to upgrade them.

[@koharumi1]

@@tropictrains8956 they should not ever use double deckers for rails in the city. Only if going longer distances does it make more sense.

[@shaunclarke94]

Hearing about the 4D is always sad. Such a shame it wasn't preserved.

[@neilforbes416]

This looks like a broad-gauge clone of the Tangara, which was a very successful train for NSW and Tangaras are still in use even now.

[@joshuachamberlain9725]

I think that Double Decker trains would work really well for Vline as their current fleet lacks the seating capacity needed, specifically on the lines that pass through the outer suburbs. However I think that they would fare poorly for the suburban services due to the limited number of doors.

[@MatthewBoldist1]

I reckon the Double Decker concept still has merit on the Belgrave/Lilydale lines, assuming the timetables were tidied up to have all-week express services that run all the way to Belgrave or Lilydale (supplemented by single-decker services that terminate/originate at Box Hill) (This also may be my personal bias - I've always found the Tangara one of the better looking trains across Australia, and would jump on a chance to bring the design back to Melbourne)

[@MetroManMelbourne]

Personally living on this line I'd rather we abolished express services outside of peak on weekdays and replaced them with stopping all stations services every 10 minutes. Extend weekend frequent service for longer too. One day in the future when the line is quad tracked to Box Hill or Blackburn or wherever we should run double deckers but that's a while off.

[@richardcostello360]

Honestly if you're a fan of the Tangara aesthetics then you haven't seen the trains that came after it....

[@aspiewithattitude3213]

Very informative and no mention about the Jolimont tunnels that had prevented the 4D trains from entering the Epping and the Hurstbridge line. I had a lot of fun filled memories and disappointment about no further more double decker trains had been made for Melbourne. Just over a week ago got the double decker Skybus and ended up on the new Metro HCMT since it was my second time on this train. Have you seen my video about the 4D unit? Back in the days I treated this train as a deity up until I heard this was scrapped in 2006. Even once managed to ride the 4D and the Tangara all in the one day 6 weeks before its July 2001 withdrawal.

[@oldtechnobodycaresabout]

reminds me of the SR 4DD

[@Yalloak939]

Was one of the issues for the double decker carriage in Melbourne not being successful was that there were many road bridges over rail lines

[@MetroManMelbourne]

not particularly at the time, may be now though.

[@Yalloak939]

@@MetroManMelbourne If you look at the road bridges over the rail line between Malvern and South Yarra the busiest rail system in Melbourne, you will see that they prohibit double decker carriages

[@FloydBromley]

Good overall analysis. On the issue of dwell time, while there are only two doors per car, the carriages themselves are shorter, so it is less of an issue than it is made out to be. However, stairs also played a role in slowing dwell time. Having said that, I've never seen anyone actually record what the difference in dwell time is. It's all just speculation as far as I can see. I'd like to record the difference myself someday.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

I’m fairly certain there’s been analysis done, given that it’s a line repeated by not just enthusiasts but governments and their departments, but I haven’t seen any either.

[@FloydBromley]

@@MetroManMelbourne just because it’s a line being repeated by government bodies, doesn’t mean they’ve done any analysis. I’ve seen plenty of false lines repeated by the government with no or faulty analysis.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

@@FloydBromley of course yeah. It’s a commonly accepted thing all over the world though.

[@FloydBromley]

@@MetroManMelbourne Yes, and I’m not saying it’s outright wrong. More so wondering what the real difference is. Sometimes thought patterns can propagate because it sounds about right, but nobody actually questions it and does any analysis. In fact the one person I know who does claim to have done it (who published a Victorian themed railway magazine for over a decade) claims there was no measurable difference.

[@listohan]

I give you the abomination that is Town Hall station (Sydney). One of the busiest stations is on two levels of tracks with changes to other lines. Designed for a city populated with a much smaller population, the platforms are cluttered with all manner of obstructions and are not much wider than builders' planks. Crowding on the platforms is the real dwell time issue.

[@BrettMcS]

One of the main reasons for double deck trains was to increase the capacity per train - more exactly, per driver - at the cost of less frequent service. The new driverless single deck trains have lower capacity, but run more frequently with lower dwell times, so it is a much better service for the customer.

[@listohan]

Fewer seats at right angles to the direction of travel and seats that allow passengers to decide which direction to face is NOT a better service in my book.

[@gulflines1960]

@@listohan Were you ever a rail commuter? I commuted daily between Dandy and Melbourne for 20 years, and then between Berwick and Melbourne for another 20 years. The direction that I faced was never of great concern to me, but I always preferred to be close to a door (faster egress in the city, especially in a packed train), and close to the carriage end (less sideways movement). I did manage to catch the 4D set twice while travelling on other lines, and noticed that passengers were more inclined to stand in the door area rather than take a seat.

[@TrainzForNSWVlogs]

@@gulflines1960 well some people suffer from Motion Sickness

[@neilforbes416]

In the name Goninan(based in Newcastle), the 'i' is short, as in *bin* or *spin.*

[@MetroManMelbourne]

Ah thanks for that will try to remember in future :)

[@harshilgupta6652]

they should bring back the 4d trains when the new metro tunnel opens

[@dood9701]

I used to catch this train at Surrey Hill during the early 2000's. The main problem was that passengers were not warned that a 3 wagon only train was coming in. That means the driver had to wait for passengers at the extremities of the platform to walk back down the platform to board. This caused extra delay at each stop, hence the poorer performance of the "Stopping All Stations" double decker trains over the express trains. The second problem is the Loop Stations are already struggling with getting people off the platforms during peak times. As a result, a number of trains are forced directly to Flinders St instead of the loop. This was not rocket science!

[@lzh4950]

I saw a design concept coming from Japan of train stations having double-decker platforms so as to speed up boarding & alighting from double-decker trains

[@wasupdoc1738]

​@lzh4950 huh, that wouldn't work, as the entrance level to the carriages isn't on the deck levels.

[@TrainzForNSWVlogs]

They were four cars in a Trailer + Motor + Motor + Trailer arrangement

[@aoilpe]

Since 1990 the Zürich S-Bahn is using double decker trains and are happy with it. The national rail service is using them since 1997 on half-hourly services around the country in IC-trains and are very happy with it. Just build better versions of them… Have a look for STADLER RAIL trains.

[@colliric]

Trains were well designed on the inside for passengers, but the technical aspects were unreliable.

[@andrewl3655]

Curious that according to those stats the 4D was 3 tonnes heavier than the Tangara despite being narrower, less tall and 2 metres shorter. Any reason for the extra weight? Did “compatibility with the Comeng” require significant extra components and hence extra weight?

[@MetroManMelbourne]

I have no actual information on this, I suspect it would have been something like that.

[@cliffleigh7450]

The fact that they only ordered a 4 car set means they were never able to accurately compare the peak hour performance (time-wise and passenger numbers) of an 8 car double-decker with a 6 car single deck Comeng set. Also in later years the train waas actually maintained at EDI's West Melbourne Vline depot due to it having roof level access.

[@moo80]

Given its uniqueness and troubled operating history, I consider myself privileged to have ridden this train before it was yanked from service

[@qlandr]

It could work on Geelong services. Long straight, and at capacity.

[@lightningfun6486]

It was a big failure but the green and gold look really good on it

[@bradallen8909]

I was lucky enough to travel on the 4D whilst it was in service. It may have been unreliable, but it really was a nice train.

[@joelpackett7582]

Double Deck Development and Demonstration.

[@issacmaw3344]

Can Melbourne even put clearways in to Dandenong for express servives to Cranbourne or Pakenham with all the fly over stations there are now?

[@MetroManMelbourne]

there's space from Oakleigh through to Dandenong. Oakleigh to Caulfield has always been impossible to add extra tracks, even at ground level. You'd have to build a tunnel (I'd say build one through Chadstone and link it up to an extended Metro Tunnel at Caulfield, but that's a whole other thing.)

[@issacmaw3344]

@@MetroManMelbourne yeah true. I guess that's better than nothing. It's just a long way from Cardinia Road to Melbourne currently. It takes too long compared to driving that's all.

[@smurftums]

If they hadn't removed the electrification from the Latrobe valley line, the 4D would had made (with appropriate modifications to seats and the like) a distinctive train to run on that service.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

Agreed. Shame that it never ran revenue service down to Warragul despite tearing down there.

[@clawz90]

Still got my 4D train key, my faqv train to drive even over the silvers! Such a shame they didnt maintain it! ;( Great video!!

[@TonyVRailfanning]

Canada and the US have had very good success with double decker passenger cars, I think they missed the boat with only trying one manufacturer of bi level cars

[@MetroManMelbourne]

The “commuter rail” systems in the US are MASSIVELY different to Australia though. You can make some of a comparison, but they are so substantially different in operations and layout that it’s not really sensible.

[@TonyVRailfanning]

@@MetroManMelbourne other than the narrower gauge Im not really sure how much different the two continents systems really are? we have plenty of LRT, commuter (metro) systems. Im not arguing here please enlighten me as to where the differences you feel are?

[@MetroManMelbourne]

@@TonyVRailfanning with the exception of a handful of systems like Philadelphia and New York, American rail is substantially different to Australian rail. In australia we use electric trains on almost every line (only Adelaide has diesel trains) and our commuter rail systems also function as inner city metros to a large extent. That just doesn’t seem to be the case in America from what I’ve seen, the systems are largely operated on freight rail lines as an afterthought to serve suburban park and ride lots, rather than the more metrolike feel seen in australia. That said as mentioned Philadelphia, New York, to a degree Chicago all have fairly similar networks.

[@TonyVRailfanning]

@@MetroManMelbourne thank you, that’s helpful. In Canada, Ontario (mostly the southern part) has a very wide spread system and the greater Vancouver area uses them also.

[@richardcostello360]

@@MetroManMelbourne actually your wrong about "Australia uses mostly electric railways" NSW lines aren't heavily electrified outside of the "suburban" ring...... southern highlands (south of MacArthur), Hunter (whole length), South Coast (south of Kiama) and even a "suburban line" (Scholfield to Richmond) aren't fully electric and WA uses diesels outside of the relatively small "suburban network) Our rail lines in Australia are closer to the American model than the English model of "passenger first" railways

[@aspiewithattitude3213]

How many people would anyone know who caught the Melbourne 4D Double Decker train and a Sydney Tangara all in the one day? I have. I did it in June 2001.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

Very few I'd imagine!

[@miketurner4462]

It's funny how you mention the dwell times, and that single deck Melbourne trains all have 3 doors per car. I lived in Melbourne for many many years, so I remember riding the old hot box Hitachi trains, back in the early 90s on the Werribee line, I now live in Qld, where we also only have single deck trains, yet all ours only have 2 doors per car per side, its a case of reworking the Timetable to accommodate the longer dwell time. Its funny how the Tangara has been so successful in Nsw, but essentially the same train was unreliable in Melbourne. Sydney's Tangara is even more reliable than the new waratah fleet, so I'm told.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

Certainly true that you can accomodate for higher dwell time. It does limit service frequency after a point though. I’m not familiar with the Sydney reliability statistics, but when introduced, the tangaras actually had quite a few faults interestingly, but ever since, have had almost none.

[@richardcostello360]

The problem with the last upgrade of these sweatboxes is the doors....the peumatic system can't handle the excess weight of the "safety doors" that were installed fleetwide in 2015

[@kingsbishop1479]

Looks like the Tangara

[@Imjinyeong1234]

👍🙂

[@warrenscarlett9302]

My wife and I went on that

[@sammy61187]

Yet perfectly fine for Sydney...

[@MetroManMelbourne]

watch the video...

[@OneIdeaTooMany]

I thought I was looking at a Tangara...

[@MetroManMelbourne]

Almost!

[@svetovidarkonsky1670]

Perun, is that you? 😎

[@Peter-ev2kr]

Double decker trains just make more sense.

[@liam3284]

Shocking to learn the comengs are not even using chopper control.

[@peterbrown1968]

I'm from lithgow nsw. Double Deck Trains are good

[@retabera]

My observation is that there were 4 other 3-car Comeng sets with Chopper controls, also notoriously unreliable, and had to be paired with a non-chopper 3-car sets to push it along whenever it failed. Amazingly, they lasted to 2017 despite being basically just as bad, but less obvious that they were different. To understand what specifically was wrong with the 4D and these Chopper Comengs, some more investigation will need to be done... I don't have the answer. All I can vaguely remember is something about the substations not being able to handle it at the time, but I have no source on that, or could be completely wrong.

[@MetroManMelbourne]

Interestingly after refurbishment the chopper sets were much more reliable - though throughout Met days they spent a huge proportion of time out of service. I heard they even withdrew them at some point and returned them to service later.

[@retabera]

@@MetroManMelbourne Ironic to finally be fixed, only to get killed off anyway.

[@tonnyyyyyyyyy]

2nd

[@SweatyGamer_69]

Tangaras: successful. 4D: poor little unsuccessful guy

[@sidneylee7305]

It looks so like Tangara, no, almost the same

[@MetroManMelbourne]

Did you watch the video lmao Looks similar but isn’t even the same dimensions let alone mechanics

[@oufukubinta]

Double-decker trains in Sydney are extremely slow and the tracks always need to be fixed due to the massive weight. It's better to have double the number of regular trains and have them run more frequently IMO

[@oufukubinta]

@@BB-xx3dv I don't know all the little details like you do but Tokyo has a population many times that of Sydney and in the many years I've spent there I've never encountered disruptions due to trackwork as severe as what you experience except weekend if you live in western Sydney. They use single level trains that are between 11 and 16 cars long

[@oufukubinta]

BTW I meant to say especially* on the weekends in Sydney the rail work is so disruptive that anyone with any sense wouldn't make any plans to catch a train to travel to the CBD or out of the CBD. No wonder 80% of the population go everywhere by car

[@TrainzForNSWVlogs]

Well some of our Waratah trains can operate at 130km/h in some sections.

[@oufukubinta]

@@TrainzForNSWVlogs Look at how proud you are

[@TrainzForNSWVlogs]

@@oufukubinta And Tangaras, V Sets, C sets, and S Sets can go 115km/h

[@danielbetelie966]

The reason why they scrapped the 4d train is because Sydney forced to remove it because of copy