A Lead Pastor Leaves Calvinism and Apologizes to his Congregation

Former Calvinistic Pastor, Brad Saab, joins Dr. Flowers to talk about his journey in and out of Calvinism.
To hear the sermon where Brad apologizes to his congregation click here: crosspointmt.sermon.net/embed...
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[@markreiber4457]

Boy for a calvinist to finally admit they were wrong is a miracle in itself

[@truth7416]

Yes the Calvinist god is merciful by punishing by torture those he forced to commit the very sins he came up with! Good job Baucham Sproul, Calvin, MacArthur, Washer, Piper. No wonder millions flock to the merciful Calvin god! The real God of Creation said this of His love for all man and the Created Universe. Psalms 145:9 The Lord is good to ALL; he has compassion on ALL he has made. Little different from the evil cruel god of calvinism isn't it? The real Jesus said in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! Wake up and turn to God who loves you . "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love!

[@kimberleerivera3334]

​@@truth7416 Thank you, I agree. I would like to point out that it's important to understand that GOD sent (HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON) CHRIST JESUS. Because GOD has many sons. May GOD BLESS us (ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION) with HIS TRUTH! GLORY TO GOD!

[@manzielvis]

I think it takes a big courage. But when you lay self and error down. Christ works in you mightily

[@oilofgladness3474]

I had to see it to believe it myself

[@photoniccannon2117]

A lot of calvinists are just believing in what they were taught. I grew up very much in this form of Christianity and can definitely see why a lot of people get stuck in it. It takes grace and patience to be able to pull people out of it.

[@eriknorton8642]

I’ve been fighting this mental battle for 3 years. Like others, I had an experience with Christ that was overwhelming and undeniable. It brought me to a place where I love Jesus with a fervent passion. I’ve struggled with Calvinism ever since, like the Holy Spirit kept telling me that it is a false doctrine. Praise God with all sincerity for videos like this

[@H1ana2digital]

Amen!

[@888biblestudy]

I never heard of Calvinism or Arminianism until 23 years after I was saved. I didn't like either and wondered why they ever existed. God cannot be put in a box

[@danoctavian8184]

I was hunted by it for 3 exhausting months before being sure is false, i can’t imagine how it must have been for you to struggle with it 3 years

[@markandgriselelam4655]

I came from an Armenian back ground but after I was saved and God put a passion in my heart to know Him and His word, I became aware of the truth in God's word that we are predestine according to the will of God. I didn't know at the time that this has been such a hot topic throughout church history. But to me it is such a wonderful and powerful truth of Gods word!

[@truth7416]

@@markandgriselelam4655 You missed a few important words in your text. You said: "I became aware of the truth in God's word that we are predestine according to the will of God." It should read " I became aware of the truth in God's word that we are all predestined to salvation and it is mans choice to reject Gods plan of salvation that condemns him ." TRUTH IN LOVE

[@beaverinaneaglesnest1024]

What these men are saying about anger and criticism amongst calvinists has been my experience as well..speaking of just myself, I was so critical and thought what I knew was superior to other non calvinists. In my experience, reformed pastors lack compassion and knowledge becomes an idol within the church. The Lord led me out of a reformed church despite the 'pastor' telling me I didn't have the freedom and biblical stance to leave. Well, praise the Lord I did! My new pastor shared the gospel with my husband and showed genuine care and my husband professed faith in Christ after a few months!

[@Cmac0099]

Great testimony!

[@garrisonturner3232]

Yeah, just look at Leighton's debate with James White. Leighton bends over backwards to be gracious and complimentary of James, and in return, James is generally gruff and unkind throughout. Twice. Also, James White has attacked Leighton with sarcastic, ugly comments many, many times since their debates. His lack of maturity and display of unattractive character is really off-putting. As a leader with thousands of eyeballs on him, James White should be able to recognize that he is speaking to a brother, and treat him accordingly. God didn't say we would be known by our ability to crush our opponents in debates, rather that we would be known by our love.

[@bobbymichaels]

Hello Beaver. I am sorry your experience was a negative one, sounds like a spiritually immature leadership. For the most part, my experience in Calvinist churches as been wonderful. We didn’t sit around talking about Arminians much. We had better things to talk about, like Jesus and the gospel. Our churches are big on missions, locally and globally, passionate about preaching Christ, making disciples, planting churches, etc. There are those Calvinist churches that are not edifying, borderline legalistic, and antagonistic, to their shame. But the same goes on in Arminian churches, prosperity teachers manipulating, indoctrinating false teaching for financial gain. Female pastors, homosexual pastors, liberal or progressive churches. Most, if not all of this grief is within the Arminian churches. We all need help from the Lord, God bless

[@jacobedwards620]

I've had similar experiences. I really respect the hunger for truth and strong theology among God among reformers, and think that can come from a good place of highly valuing God's word. But unfortunately, like Piper says, that tends to attract a very intellectual sort of person for which the pride of knowledge can become a trap/trait. Plenty of strong Christians who have Calvinistic beliefs, but i agree, pride and arrogance can be a trait among many such churches. I used to think Calvinistically too, but God's bought me out of it, and I've seen that grace grow in me since.

[@jacobedwards620]

@@bobbymichaels as someone who leans more closely to the Armenian view, I actually agree with most of your comments there. Calvinistic churches tend to be very good on strong theology and valuing God's word, but the downside there can be pride of knowledge/intellect. On the flipside, I agree the temptation for Armenians can be to abuse God's grace in terms of extending grace instead of lovingly correcting/disciplining someone, and so false teaching tends to rise up easier in such churches. I do think we Armenians and Calvinists need to learn to get on regardless and keep preaching and sharing the one true Gospel, as the apostle Paul notes. I'm sure God will let us know who was right, or even that we were all wrong, one day. And maybe the 100% correct view is beyond all of us, and one day we'll marvel at the truth that was too wondrous for our minds in this world to handle 😂

[@Ronald47798]

Glory to God for DELIVERANCE from Calvinism.

[@kimberleerivera3334]

GLORY TO GOD! GOD is a discerner of hearts, and HE certainly knows who believe faith, hope, LOVE and that LOVE is the greatest!

[@bobbymichaels]

There are many Arminians who would say they were delivered from Arminianism, and would give glory to God. Our views on soteriology are not what saves us. There are godly Arminians and Calvinists. And there will be some Arminians and some Calvinists in hell, who loved their soteriology more than Christ. Christ is our treasure. Not merely our theology.

[@bwc6520]

@@bobbymichaels they are both from the same systematic, one group just tweaked it to their liking

[@tannerfrancisco8759]

@@bobbymichaels Arminius was literally a Calvinist. He just disagreed on if we had a responsibility to respond to the gospel. Arminianism isn't the opposite of Calvinism. What you think you know about Arminianism probably isn't true because Calvinists lie about their opponents' beliefs. It's the defining trait of their apologetics. If they didn't lie, nobody would be deceived into their doctrine of demons. And if it's not true then it cannot be of God.

[@emhchannel2842]

"Thank God that God delivered me from the Bible!"

[@stephaniebeaulieu6382]

This confirms my suspicion that Calvinist teachers deep down know their beliefs are incongruent but continue on anyway to be part of the "group". Thank God for pastors like Brad who have enough moral integrity to admit it and proclaim the truth going forward.

[@frame3139]

Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so. I trust him for salvation, not my goodness nor my works, it’s that simple. Christ alone, period.

[@NotGoodAtThis100]

Amen! And I’m so glad that I can know this for a fact rather than spending my whole life in fear that God secretly despises me and is indirectly leading me to hell, as Calvinism teaches!

[@tonycosta8137]

Not Christ Alone, it's God Alone and technically speaking it's the work of The Trinity. Yeshua in the work of Justification, The Holy Spirit working in sanctification, and The Father's work in Glorification..past, present Future, saved being saved and shall be saved

[@kendalljones5540]

The Bible says the only way to god is through Christ. How are you getting around that one, I’m just curious.

[@PETERJOHN101]

Unfortunately, that doctrine is not what Jesus taught. Jesus said we are required to keep his Commandments (Mark 10:19), be baptized (Mark 16:16), and bear fruit for him (John 15:2). If you love him, you do all those things. "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:24)

[@Testifydesignfactory]

@@PETERJOHN101 Unfortunately, none of the things you've outlined will save you. The prerequisite for "Eternal Life is, one must be "Born Again!" (John 3:3-7).

[@Baymax-xs6jw]

The thief on the cross just simply trusted in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. And Jesus answered him, " I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise. Not Arminian nor Calvanist. He just simply trusted in Jesus and all his sins were forgiven.

[@TheRootedWord]

Yes, but did God choose for him and then he spoke or did he make that choice by himself? That is the unBiblical question posed over this kind of debate. The Scriptures were not written to answer that question, so we should not be asking it. There are more important issues to focus on and thank you for trying to point that out. :-)

[@TheRootedWord]

However, he did not JUST trust in Jesus in the sense that we mean it today, in post Calvinist wrecked world. In the Bible to say someone believed/trusted meant they also acted that out in their actions, regardless how limited those might be due to their situation. The thief on the cross was quite limited. Yet, the only actions he could do embodied that faith. And if he had not embodied that faith, it would have been dead faith and he would not have been saved. This is James' point and where the modern theologies fail, because they scream over the top of the voice of our Lord Jesus, "SOLO FIDEO!!!" But the Scriptures, which are the Testimony of God Himself do not EVER say "only by faith", separate from anything else. And indeed, when pressed, these wolves will also cry out other "SOLO" 's. But if one thing is SOLO then you cannot have other SOLO's. It is idiocy. When you tear apart the Testimony and reduce it to a platitude, you find yourself on the wrong side of the war, fighting against the true and living God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. We must be careful.

[@robertlulek1634]

@@TheRootedWord if I decide today to commit suicide do I have that choice or did God predestined me to do so?? You see we can get carried away with all of this.the most important attitude we should have should be as the blind man who is cured by Jesus. When the Pharisees asked him who cured him??his answer was I don't know but I was blind but now I see

[@5winder]

Amen.

[@52RGD]

Baymax 0815, One thing is for sure : He is one of the elect.....He was chosen to be saved, before the foundation of the world....

[@loganross1861]

When he says he was affected by that guy sending him a KZbin video. What impressed me is that he even watched the KZbin video. Most people won’t watch anything that isn’t agreeing with them. Kevin Thompson helped me too. I found Leighton later.

[@Katie-hp5yk]

May have something to do with who it was that was sending him this video. In this case it was my husband, and I know he was praying for him when he sent it. Can’t get past the power of prayer!

[@AR-rz3tk]

During a visit to see my daughter, my son in law kept dropping the term, "reformed" . I asked him about it. He scowled at me, answered with, "Reformed means we have a ' high view of scripture'. " His tone implied that he assumed that I did not. I admit, I was 'hurt', but calmly answered, " I have a high view of scripture." I took note during that visit that he was listening to reformed podcasts of Sproul. Stacks of Pipe and J. Mac books on the shelves, end tables, and nightstands. I can't help but think of the early church history in scripture.... how were they identified? Can we expound on that? .... I see in J. Calvin's history a divisiveness* and persecutions of sincere Christ followers in his trail. * ...This seems to "play" into Satan's hand.🤔

[@tannerfrancisco8759]

Yep because it's demonic. It's a religious pride demon. Ask the Holy Spirit to discern the spirit for you and trust His response.

[@Person-dq3dk]

Such pride.

[@bornagainbeliever1429]

I can totally relate to you!!

[@ocarcara3491]

Thank you for teaching us the truth!!!! I am a new believer and seeing the non-calvinist side of things.... always focus is in the Lord and Savior Jesus !!!!!!

[@truth7416]

Yes the Calvinist god is merciful by punishing by torture those he forced to commit the very sins he came up with! Good job Baucham Sproul, Calvin, MacArthur, Washer, Piper. No wonder millions flock to the merciful Calvin god! The real God of Creation said this of His love for all man and the Created Universe. Psalms 145:9 The Lord is good to ALL; he has compassion on ALL he has made. Little different from the evil cruel god of calvinism isn't it? The real Jesus said in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! Wake up and turn to God who loves you . "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love!

[@ocarcara3491]

@@truth7416 well put!!! Well thought out. God bless you!!!

[@truth7416]

Your very welcome. I wrote this, this morning and thought it might start your day off encouraged. Its funny but really sad. If you talk to a MORMON about their founder Joseph Smith who invented the movement in 1820. If you were to say that it is heresy for Joseph Smith to say that Jesus was just an ordinary man like any man, that then evolved into a god who then created this universe. And he also teaches that all men will evolve to god hood and then create their own universes. They and their wives will then create and populate that universe by their off spring. The first thing they do is...... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES !! If you talk to a JEHOVAH WITNESS about their founder Charles Taze Russell who invented the movement in 1870. If you were to say that it is heresy for Charles Russell to say that Jesus was really Michael the Arch Angel that came to earth and became Jesus for a period of time and is now back being an Angel. The first thing they do is..... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! If you talk to a MUSLIM about their founder Muhammad who invented the movement in 570 AD. If you were to say that it is heresy Muhammad to say that Jesus was just a minor prophet and not God in the flesh. The first thing they do is.... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND THE HIS DISCIPLES!! If you talk to a CALVINIST about their founder John Calvin who invented the movement in 1536. If you were to say that it is heresy for John Calvin to say Quote "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) and “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11) The first thing they do is .... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! Lets look at the greatest living disciple of Calvinism living today John Piper and what he has to say. QUOTE from is website... "God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . . . If you talk to a Christian about their founder The LORD JESUS CHRIST who started the movement before the Universe began. If you were to say that it is heresy to say that Jesus is the Son of God! The Messiah! The saviour of the World! God in the Flesh! The only true God! The Creator! Love! The first thing the Christian would do is.... DEFEND THE CREATOR!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! They would turn to Gods Word, like: 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! John Piper, Paul Washer, R.C.Sproul, John MacArthur, Baucham and James White and many others. Wake up and turn to God who loves you, while you still live and have a choice. "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love and absolute sincerity!

[@ocarcara3491]

@@truth7416 well put again. I love the comparisons with the cults, i never thought that way. I hope God's mercy is even more then we think..... so many being deceived by false teachings.... i do have family members that are mormons and Jeova witssness .... so religious and yet so far from God....

[@truth7416]

@@ocarcara3491 Hello again. I was just reading some more of these posts and realized I hadn't said how thrilling it is to me to see another person come to Christ. Welcome to the family! I would like to give you some advice to help you on the topic of calvinism. Look up on youtube and find "What love is this""Dave Hunt" He is a scholar of the highest level. He gives an honest and sensible teaching on what Calvinism really is and isn't. It is such a good resource, I return to watch it over and over. Book mark it and study it over and over as it has just so many details to learn. Also follow Leighton Flowers he has done powerful things for the kingdom.(as your doing) Others. David Pawson Mike Winger Truth in Love

[@cwdesigns101]

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are WITHOUT EXCUSE." This to me says a lot. If we (all human beings) have seen and still deny God then "WE" have no excuse. Says nothing about "elect" only. WE - ALL. God cannot hold it against us if He already chose us. I know God chose me Darla to be created before the foundations of the world and I am so eternally grateful but He also gave me the choice to chose God or chose sin. "For man loves sin more then he loves God." I chose God and rest in Him. Amen

[@mrnoedahl]

The three hardest words for any pastor to say is "I was wrong". Congratulations to an honest, humble pastor. God knows we need more men like him. Also everyone needs to read The Institutes of The Calvin Religion if you don't want to follow Christ and His word alone.

[@neoturfmasterMVS]

Can you image admitting your wrong and you are wrong?

[@mrnoedahl]

@@neoturfmasterMVS Where?

[@neoturfmasterMVS]

@@mrnoedahl This poor pastor in the video. Renounced the confession: Christ saves. This in the fullest of meaning. The author and the completor of our salvation. He who began a good work in you will wrought it to completion.

[@craigime]

​@@neoturfmasterMVShe renounced Calvinism. He's not wrong

[@neoturfmasterMVS]

@@craigime He's not right. We must believe in free will, we have no other choice.

[@meggy8868]

All I know is that I was blind and now I see; I am so glad that I was protected from all discussions like this for many years and only used the Bible as my source. I knew that I was saved after 39 years of resistance, one who hated Christianity; the scales fell from my eyes, and I understood the Bible, received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Bible became an open book. 1 John 5.13

[@timtherrien7843]

I'm not a "calvinist" or an "arminian". I am a Christian, saved by grace. Stop following the teachings and traditions of men and be guided by the Holy Spirit. Then you won't have to leave anything.

[@kevinm7751]

Armeneism came about because Armenius was a eucementalitic humanist that wanted to bring rc back together with the reformers. He figured out a new theology for unity instead of truth.

[@JoshuaAdrianjones]

Exactly let God be true

[@elgriego331]

I said that to my Pastor and he said you have to pick one or the other! Lol. I told him Im a biblicist and they are both Works for Salvation.

[@ryangi5]

Tim, do you believe the Bible teaches that those who are saved were predestined, and those who are saved are the sovereign choice of God? OR do you believe that the Bible teaches that you choose whether you are saved, and that it is not, at least not entirely, God's choice? Once you answer that question, don't you fall into one of the two camps?

[@harriet3194]

@@ryangi5 One can believe in both. in many cultures around the world two seemingly contradictory concepts can be both true at the same time. it's interesting how that's a problem only in some cultures especially the western cultures.

[@keithwolfe1942]

Glad you both left TULIP and calvinism. Thank GOD.

[@loganross1861]

this controversy is the biggest stumbling block in my faith and I’m still stuck on it.

[@nicolaslosito5735]

Logan Ross let be for sanctification instead of a struggle. Let it challenge you, not inhibit you

[@juliedunham9400]

To be honest me too! I came across a video of a cal I started preacher a couple of years ago and it became a huge stumbling block where I questioned every little thing I believed. And I still struggle with my own faith and it is a daily battle for me.

[@hillbillyheadcam1729]

The fact that the doctrine causes so many divisions and stumbling blocks should prove it is false. All manmade doctrines are rubbish before God. Did Jesus preach Calvin? No, in fact His own words refute the calvinist position. The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. Not calvinism or any other ism

[@juliedunham9400]

@@markwitcombe2119 I actually watched a debate between a Calvinist and a non calvinists and the debate question was does regeneration precedes faith or does faith precedes regeneration. And it allowed me to understand the difference between the two different sides.

[@lindajohnson4204]

@@juliedunham9400 It's a slander against God, disguised as pious worship..Giving it an inch allows the devil to undermine our faith by insinuating that maybe God really is like that. He leads us to examine everything we believe in the "light" of this darkness. That is an injury to faith, exactly the opposite of what we are supposed to do.

[@g0ld3nb0ygam3]

His testimony is literally what has been happening to me these past few months. First youth pastor role. Been teaching John verse by verse with the kids. Ran into the American Gospel film, Calvinistic volunteer who is very passionate about it, searching the scriptures. It has been a really terrible mental battle. Thanks for this!

[@juanlmontejo]

That's the main reason why I don't like the American Gospel movies. They only promote reformed Pastors like they are the only ones to call out false teachers

[@proudrosemom]

@@juanlmontejo exactly. Liked the movie but didn’t like that angle

[@truth7416]

Its funny but really sad. If you talk to a MORMON about their founder Joseph Smith who invented the movement in 1820. If you were to say that it is heresy for Joseph Smith to say that Jesus was just an ordinary man like any man, that then evolved into a god who then created this universe. And he also teaches that all men will evolve to god hood and then create their own universes. They and their wives will then create and populate that universe by their off spring. The first thing they do is...... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES !! If you talk to a JEHOVAH WITNESS about their founder Charles Taze Russell who invented the movement in 1870. If you were to say that it is heresy for Charles Russell to say that Jesus was really Michael the Arch Angel that came to earth and became Jesus for a period of time and is now back being an Angel. The first thing they do is..... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! If you talk to a MUSLIM about their founder Muhammad who invented the movement in 570 AD. If you were to say that it is heresy Muhammad to say that Jesus was just a minor prophet and not God in the flesh. The first thing they do is.... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND THE HIS DISCIPLES!! If you talk to a CALVINIST about their founder John Calvin who invented the movement in 1536. If you were to say that it is heresy for John Calvin to say Quote "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) and “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11) The first thing they do is .... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! Lets look at the greatest living disciple of Calvinism living today John Piper and what he has to say. QUOTE from is website... "God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . . . If you talk to a Christian about their founder The LORD JESUS CHRIST who started the movement before the Universe began. If you were to say that it is heresy to say that Jesus is the Son of God! The Messiah! The saviour of the World! God in the Flesh! The only true God! The Creator! Love! The first thing the Christian would do is.... DEFEND THE CREATOR!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! They would turn to Gods Word, like: 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! John Piper, Paul Washer, R.C.Sproul, John MacArthur, Baucham and James White and many others. Wake up and turn to God who loves you, while you still live and have a choice. "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love and absolute sincerity!

[@jjgems5909]

@@truth7416 “nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism”. WHOA! that’s literally the feelings I had when I was studying and debating Calvinism. I almost succumbed to it! Praise God for His love and grace and mercy.

[@truth7416]

I am happy for you Jessica. Here are my thoughts for the day that you may like. NO ONE TAUGHT ANY of this reformed theology, since the Apostles and the church fathers gave us the gospels. Isn't it strange that the world had to wait for 1500 years for John Calvin to show up and give the world the truth? JOHN CALVIN stated that He rejected, yes rejected, the church fathers as being confusing to the point that he rejected all that they taught. John Calvin formed all of his doctrines from a gnostic teacher called Augustine. He quotes Augustine over 400 times and credits Augustine, not the church fathers with his Reformed theology. John Calvin and his following teachers were not Reformers at all. They were DEFORMERS of theTruth of Jesus Christ and the TRUE GOOD NEWS GOSPEL. AGAIN! Isn't it strange that the world had to wait for 1500 years for John Calvin to show up and give the world the truth? Jesus warned us the ant-gospel teachers were coming and John Calvin was one of the biggest. Many have been deceived by them, they are not our friends but our enemy. Just another scheme of the Devil that is sweeping the World today. TRUTH IN LOVE

[@jjgems5909]

I went through a big mental/spiritual battle with Calvinism as well. Literally went through a year where my now husband then fiancé were struggling with it and almost didn’t get married because of it. I have some beautiful and kind friends who are into it. I love my Calvinist brothers and sisters but I disagree with their theology and I think it’s unbiblical. Period. I remember attending a bible study with some Calvinists. The hosts were always so nice, but I told one guy what church I went to and he said so sarcastically and kind of rude “oh does Pastor “blank” still cry all the time?”. I was like “what’s wrong with crying?” My pastor at the time was a vietnam marine veteran, had PTSD, was a former wife and child beater and Jesus saved him from that! He would cry over people going to hell, over this generation. This whole idea of “crying makes you weak and theologically unsound, and if you cry that means you’re into that wishy washy gospel”. This is the problem I’ve seen with a lot of Calvinist. It’s funny he said that because later I saw videos where Paul washer would always cry, and I thought that was Interesting

[@sheilasmith7779]

Paula: I don't understand how Christians have no problem with church leaders that don't behave like a Christ follower. What they believe seems to be all that matters and not how they behave toward others. Good for you Paula.

[@bornagainbeliever1429]

I totally agree with you Jessica!

[@78LedHead]

And boy let me tell you, Paul Washer's crying is the biggest put-on, soap opera you've ever seen. A man genuinely crying over the wickedness and brutality in this world? Give me more of them.

[@JustMe-mn4gr]

Jesus wept

[@jjgems5909]

@@JustMe-mn4gr right I’m fine with men and pastors crying. I’m just sharing a story of a Calvinist who mocked my old pastor because he would get emotional sometimes, yet paul washer and John Piper are the most emotional pastors I’ve ever seen lol. I don’t think their is anything wrong with it. Just sharing what the other person thought

[@montemoffett8226]

I really appreciate this dialogue! I have been looking for this insights for a long time ! My son went to college and now is full blown 5 pointer. I am born again and love Jesus and ofcourse his word! Learning so much from this experience! JESUS IS LORD!

[@windbag1980]

I so much love that y'all dealt with the reality that Calvinists have a tendency to be rather mean-spirited and angry. It is one of the major ear-marks of a Calvinistic believer...bitterness. It isn't evidence against the position, but it sure does raise eyebrows. I would love to see this treated more deeply.

[@stonykalangoministries]

so true bro.

[@chocolateeater6131]

@windbag1980 We are to know a tree by its fruit. The fruit of misrepresenting God in this way is bad fruit. If you portray God as unloving, brutal people will be drawn to that false view. If you create a truckload of convoluted terms to explain your “theology,” the arrogant will pride themselves on their supposed ability to remember, understand, and “explain” those terms, and will assume superiority over those who don’t. Calvinism provides an atmosphere which stokes pride, un-Christlike character, and indifference toward suffering. Blathering on about not wanting to contemplate the suffering of children in brothels because it would be too tempting to take their gaze off the glory of God’s sovereignty… Hork.

[@windbag1980]

Amen! I couldn't have put it better myself!@@chocolateeater6131

[@troyclegg9849]

Unfortunately Reformed Theology confuses the gospel, where the gospel is plain and simple and truly lovely.

[@nberrios777]

Please speak for yourself. I was confused by Arminianism after carefully studying Ephesians 1, John, Acts, Romans, Revelation, and many others which include Isaiah, and particularly some of the the harsh sayings of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is indeed very simple unlike Arminianism which is based on the Pelagian heresy. Look it up..., you might be frightened to know your doctrine was deemed heretical by the early church.

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

Replacement theology is a heresy and consists of believing the antichrists are God's chosen people. well chosen for what exactly. 1 John 2:22 - Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. ALL Jews, that is why they are jews, deny that Jesus is the Christ and that makes them antichrist A remnant of some shall come to the Lord at one point. Rev 11:13 - And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Jesus in Revelation 2:9 - I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Galations 3:29 - And if ye be Christ's, then ARE YE Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Those in Christ ARE the seed [children] of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Israel. Gentile does not mean non-jew either it just means nation God forbid you believe "white Christians" are the chosen people = racist or white supremacist Believing the antichrists who claim to be jews are the chosen people is replacement theology and is a lie from hell

[@hillbillyheadcam1729]

@@nberrios777 Heresy is by definition taking some of The Word and rejecting other parts of it. Thats what all these manmade doctrines do. Calvinism is heresy. Any "ism" is heresy. Only the Gospel of Jesus is truth. Calvinism is arrogance. Its arrogant to think that modern men in recent history (augustine, calvin) have figured it out better than our Lord and Savior. Jesus would have taught Calvinism if it was the Gospel. The disciples rejected gnosticism, which is what calvinism is. It is like this secret knowledge that people gain pride from. The early disciples would have utterly rejected calvinism as a false gnostic gospel. Its not calvinism vs arminism. Its every ism and every false gospel vs the only one true gospel of Jesus.

[@ThaNewDealer723]

@@nberrios777 these people are not Arminians... lol

[@J_a_s_o_n]

@@nberrios777 we follow the BIBLE scriptures not your early church fathers and their traditions. Jesus Christ is our mark as an example.

[@DeborahAPeters]

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE what you're doing here, I'm learning SO much. WE will be supporting your ministry here, it is SO valuable!! Recently we've joined a bible study and over the span of a some weeks, it became clear we stood on differing grounds regarding doctrinal truth...our group comes from calvinism, and we're as you've shared many times, on the corporate election side...when I started seeing a bunch of terminology flying around in the group, I discovered they're referring to us as Arminians...?? lol and I'd never heard the word nor labeled myself as one, lol...????....so your shares here have been very educational and I can see a better perspective on where they're coming from, and what's really unfortunate is those very definitions they have on free will, and corporate election - coming from those teaching - are unsound and weak. I can totally see if you've never heard a rational definition of what those are, how the calvinist perspective on doctrine would be welcomed. The group has been tense on Romans 9; the predestination issue and I'm knee deep in it starting from Romans 8...please keep our bible study group in prayer for receiving light shed on The Word. Thank you brother, Deborah

[@promo5423]

Really REALLY respect the honesty, and humility. Such a refreshing blessing to witness humility in others, encourages me to always be open to learning and growing in meekness.

[@HuelgasTed]

I have studied and used to believe in Calvinism, until I went to school of theology and have learned more about the scriptures. Realized Calvinism has unbiblical teaching. My dilemma was how to explain that I am not an Arminian. Thanks and blessing.

[@n647097]

It's a false dichotomy, you don't have to be one or the other

[@dakotasmith1344]

Molinism is a “third way”. It literally tries to split the difference between the two. Beyond Calvinism, Molinism, and Arminianism, every Protestant theology is a variation of these three in my opinion, whether explicitly or implicitly. Provisionalism (what Flowers puts forward) is a form of Arminianism (in my opinion it is) that denies total inability and promotes eternal security (there’s disagreement in Arminianism as to whether or not you can lose your salvation).

[@jefferypassagecpa9125]

If Calvinists are true hard determinists, then they must hold that this man's leaving Calvinism was truly determined by God. So, how can Calvinists object?

[@albusai]

Verum Est Mundum doesn’t that sounds as a contradiction?

[@jefferypassagecpa9125]

@@verumestmundum4006 Compatibilism is used to "excuse" God for "making evil come to pass for his glory."

[@michaelburdge6748]

Calvinists are not hard determinism. Hard determinism is an incoherent philosophical belief held to by Hyper-Calvinists who are not at all orthodox

[@primeobjective5469]

@@ravissary79 "... to conceal this fact." Indeed, to conceal the logical conclusion of their systematic.

[@primeobjective5469]

"How can they object?", the objection is emotional, not rational.

[@jayD4321]

Any person that hangs their salvation on on a particular school of doctrine could literally put themselves in the position of a pharasee or Sadducees and miss the messiah entirely ..... and this is coming from a guy that loves reform preachers 😂😂😂

[@bluemountains09]

satan brings confusion and divisions and so we end up with competing ideas of salvation. if people ask the Holy Spirit to teach them then they will have the truth but most christians don’t even believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to us or that the gifts and works of the Holy Spirit are for now and so on it goes.

[@freemind9721]

So what do you believe?

[@bluemountains09]

@@freemind9721 ask the Holy Spirit for understanding before you read God’s word.. you will never go wrong..let Him be your teacher.

[@andrewconway7730]

Awesome talk!! Especially about Calvinists coming into non-Calvinist churches and attempting to make everyone Calvinist. I experienced that firsthand. It's not fun.

[@varsitycamplife]

Andrew Conway been there too. Still recovering. Sorry you had to go through that.

[@richb.48]

I have been dealing with the same thing for the last 7 months. I was pushed out of my leadership role because I didn't agree with Calvinism. Ended up leaving that church and did some serious study to find out why I don't follow the systematic of Calvinism. I praise God for having gone thru it because I know more about why I believe what I believe. I also found out that MOST people don't have a clue about Calvinism or Arminianism. So now I have opportunity to educate people about both systematics, and also articulate the Bible view of both doctrines, and how both man-made systematics are wrong. But I'm still dealing with some anger issues over the whole thing. God is helping me with those issues.

[@mishaanton5436]

Rich B. Yes ot is damaging and i think i had righteous anger. Yet, i have to forgived or fleshly anger gets in and bitterness. Thatz hard to forgive then. But I am staying out of that church and working on what i see in me. To see them as equal and imperfect as I am also.

[@richb.48]

@@Phill0old You sir will have to answer some day for your false doctrines. Why do you call Calvinism "the gospel"? Can you please tell me where Paul defines the gospel as "God meticulously controlling everything"? And just to let you know, I do believe it was God's will for me to move on. How could He let me stay in an assembly governed by heretics? And He has placed me into another assembly where they are now asking me to serve in the same manner that God has granted me to do. Not sure where your accusations come from. You must be a Calvinist, yes?

[@richb.48]

@@Phill0old Your definition of "sovereign" is different than mine. God is indeed sovereign, however, He does NOT meticulously control every little iota, but He does work in all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Why are you so upset at this? according to you, God made me think this way, so you probably need to take a break. God be praised. Go sell your man-made systematic somewhere else please. I'm not buying your snake oil.

[@EbonCollins]

God is the one that delivers us from all evil. It’s not us it God who does it all. Just trust in God. Seek God. James 1:5

[@JoshuaAdrianjones]

You have to choose to trust something

[@truth7416]

Its funny but really sad. If you talk to a MORMON about their founder Joseph Smith who invented the movement in 1820. If you were to say that it is heresy for Joseph Smith to say that Jesus was just an ordinary man like any man, that then evolved into a god who then created this universe. And he also teaches that all men will evolve to god hood and then create their own universes. They and their wives will then create and populate that universe by their off spring. The first thing they do is...... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES !! If you talk to a JEHOVAH WITNESS about their founder Charles Taze Russell who invented the movement in 1870. If you were to say that it is heresy for Charles Russell to say that Jesus was really Michael the Arch Angel that came to earth and became Jesus for a period of time and is now back being an Angel. The first thing they do is..... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! If you talk to a MUSLIM about their founder Muhammad who invented the movement in 570 AD. If you were to say that it is heresy Muhammad to say that Jesus was just a minor prophet and not God in the flesh. The first thing they do is.... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND THE HIS DISCIPLES!! If you talk to a CALVINIST about their founder John Calvin who invented the movement in 1536. If you were to say that it is heresy for John Calvin to say Quote "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) and “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11) The first thing they do is .... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! Lets look at the greatest living disciple of Calvinism living today John Piper and what he has to say. QUOTE from is website... "God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . . . If you talk to a Christian about their founder The LORD JESUS CHRIST who started the movement before the Universe began. If you were to say that it is heresy to say that Jesus is the Son of God! The Messiah! The saviour of the World! God in the Flesh! The only true God! The Creator! Love! The first thing the Christian would do is.... DEFEND THE CREATOR!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! They would turn to Gods Word, like: 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! John Piper, Paul Washer, R.C.Sproul, John MacArthur, Baucham and James White and many others. Wake up and turn to God who loves you, while you still live and have a choice. "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love and absolute sincerity!

[@PuzzlesC4M]

I love Leighton! He’s so gracious and wise.

[@user-estrellaroja]

Cuando escuché a un calvinista predicar, mi corazón entró en una especie de lucha, de incertidumbre, de dudas y muchos malestares, no abracé completamente esa doctrina porque no me sentía cómodo. Porque también tenía algunos predicadores que no lo eran, y John Lennox fue uno de los que me hizo volver a esa seguridad acerca de la salvación como la primera vez que llegué a Cristo.

[@jen4um]

I used to listen to a pastor when I was a young kid and he is now a popular pastor. His sermons were really deep and I learned a lot. However, he is a Calvinist now but I do not remember him being a Calvinist back then, at least I don’t remember him speaking about it. Anyway, about a year ago or so he was preaching about God creating most people without any hope of salvation purposely, to show his glory. When I heard that I was sick to my stomach and I stopped listening to his sermons. The heart of the Lord is mercy. God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. It would seem God would be going against his own nature to create people for eternal damnation. In that case it would be better for them to have never been born. Jesus died for all but not all will come to faith.

[@lekanadenusi462]

Oh wow! That's sickening! Whereas Jesus said John 15:8 - Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. That verse tells us clearly what brings glory to God. And Surely, it isn't people being eternally damned outside of their will.

[@shortygreyhannah]

This is a specific reply about the fact that the pastor was preaching about god creating most people without any of salvation purposely , to show his glory. We know this is not true because of what God said in the beginning: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness." Then even when man fell, he made Jesus in His image and now we who have the Holy Spirit, are image bearers of Christ. And this is the will of God, that we would believe on Jesus Christ whom God has sent.

[@glynisredeemed4542]

God's word clearly states that He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to eternal life.

[@jen4um]

@@glynisredeemed4542 I agree

[@jevans344]

My Problem is that I REALLY enjoy and trust many teachers that are I discovered are Calvinists. Friel, Washer, McArthor, F4F, BezelT3 are all very knowledgeable and I agree with 96percent of what they say. Leaving Catholicism and dealing with a Bethel Church following Mother, these men helped me fall back to scripture

[@Mcfirefly2]

They teach some truths, and say many helpful things. It is really difficult to find teachers that are basically reliable, and that is indeed painful. I'm currently listening to one who identifies as a Calvinist, John Barnett, who apparently taught or teaches at McArthur's Masters College--he mentions some relationship with it--but who says many, many things that are in disagreement with Calvinism. He even prefers dispensationalism over covenental theology, showing that the covenental view is based on logic, and ultimately, the reasining of Augustine, but dispensationalism lets the Bible interpret the Bible. When he started to describe them, the auduence laughed a snarky, knowing laugh, assuming he was praising covenental theology for being more logical, but he was far more critical of covenantalism than of dispensationalism. Despite claiming Calvinism, he believes God wants people to be saved and gives them that opportunity. But so did Spurgeon. That's how tricky these issues can be, once you have to deal with the things that are superimposed upon the Bible, to make it say what it really does not.

[@johnbrien6313]

Life is a journey and not a destination!

[@PasturePig]

I like to listen to Voddie Vaughan as well. Glad you said Bezelt3 I really enjoy his videos.

[@sephardim4yeshua155]

Keep in mind, (im not associating anyone with the devil) the way the devil get you is to take truth and mix it with lies. This is confusing and hard to defend against. This is why when the devil used scripture against Jesus, Jesus defended with scripture in context. The most damning lie will be a confusing one, because it has a lot of truth.

[@jeffreylardizabal3964]

Eshcewing the truth through the Bible is what we are all called to do, rightly dividing it, and leaning not unto our own understanding, but God's. The Holy Spirit will remind us of all things spoken through Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, and abiding in him, listening, reading, and meditating on what the Bible clearly states, is what we are called to do - not lean on men's understandings and, especially not, their philosophical, hard determinist, underpinnings - as Isaiah 2:22 states: "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils, of what account is he." If a Calvinist, Arminian, Traditionalist, or any other person, or angels, bring another Gospel, they will naturally bring in an admixture of truth and lies - or intentions, other than God's, for "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," - Romans 3:23, which should lead us to one thing - when we look to others for insights, take them with a grain of salt and reprove such with the Word, whether they are the Pope, the President of the SBC, or ANY OTHER MAN, or angel - reprove such with the Word. Mohammed claimed he heard his truth from an angel he claimed to be Gabriel. Did he reprove such with the Word of God, at which time - he had used texts from both old and some new testament writings, to argue Islam. Did he do so correctly? No. And God love those flocking to Islam, over 1.6 billion lost to such lies - for 99% truth with 1% lie is a full blown lie of the worst kind, such as Calvinism and anything else which does not rightly divide the truth - the Word.

[@johndoe-ln4oi]

At the 16:50 mark, the meanness/harshness of Calvinists is what I have noticed too. James White is a prime example.

[@ephesians28-9akjv6]

I love Kevin Thompson's straight forward clear teachings on the scriptures exposing calvinism.

[@j.d.auwerda4795]

Lol

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

Oh most so called pastors do believe in a chosen people and election. as long as they are the antichrists in the middle east and I am not writing about arabs.

[@delcannon5051]

Calvinism is a 'False Doctrine.' The ONLY Gospel for today is 'The Gospel of the Grace of God' as preached by the Apostle Paul in Romans through Philemon.

[@JohnBruski]

Which is the same gospel in all the other books of the Bible.

[@lovelandgirl1494]

I appreciate the honesty of this interview.

[@katepalmer9113]

Why do we call ourselves denomination Jesus said make disciples. I'm sick of man made doctrines. We are Followers of Christ.

[@Joesfosterdogs]

one of the most salient observations ever...kids and atheists ask the best questions! WHY are there so many systems when you have one Bible and one God? Deer in headlights for most older believers. If we have the Holy Spirit, why so many interpretations (hermeneutical approaches)? Has the Noetic Effects of sin destroyed man's reasoning ability spiritually that we cannot worship of one mind? your observation opens these windows...

[@jacobmojapelo2448]

Oh wow! Preach it Sister!

[@nberrios777]

Yes, Arminianism is a heresy and not supported by Scripture. I’m sick of such man-made doctrines as Arminianism.

[@nberrios777]

Doctrine, not denomination is the issue here. All churches must have one doctrine (teaching of the Bible) otherwise there will be division and confusion.

[@silveriorebelo8045]

of which Christ? the Christ of the Moloch God of Calvinism? Calvinism is a cult and Calvinists are clearly not Christian...

[@scottdetter]

Many people have always left the church when they hear the truth. That shows that those sermons were working.

[@reformed-slave]

In my personal encounter with Calvinism, being a babe in Christ, I was shocked. But I bless the Lord, He truly holds His sheep in His hand. It is truly incomprehensible because any one being in this world has a finite mind. But for me, the beauty in this doctrine is that you will know for yourself if you really are in Christ because with all the bad press (you're unelect, you're vessel for destruction), you still choose to go and share the gospel. I also personally believe that predestination is a pride-crusher for people, that this doctrine goes against our carnal minds, that we still want to have autonomy over God's choice. Be a disciple of Jesus Christ and careless about the consequences, may you be like Peter or Judas, because God alone deserve all the glory, everything He does is righteous. These are my personal opinions, just sharing it with you brothers and sisters. God bless you all.

[@Mcfirefly2]

I believe that I was given a choice, but that God was patient with me. I believe I tried His patience, but He did not abandon me to unbelief. The thing is this: I think that God gets the glory, although the choice was mine. I don't see myself glorying in my decision, like it is accused, but in His patience and kindness, in not abandoning me to my foolishness. And believing that, both God's sovereignty and man's free will can be reconciled. There are still some difficult scriptures, but knowing that their meaning will fall in line with what is sure and established is very helpful. So, having been lifted up, does Jesus draw all men unto Himself? , Would God have all men be saved, and to come into a knowledge of the truth? Is it the will of the Father that (even) one of these little ones perish? Any theology that tells me the _real_ truth is that God, from all eternity, wants most little ones He will ever create, to perish, is seriously denying what Jesus plainly said. Any theology that sweeps it under the rug that God would have all men be saved, is denying a Holy Spirit-inspired, apostolic statement of God's nature and intention in salvation, one made by the apostle Paul, the same Paul who wrote the letter to the Romans. Even if we didnt believe it was inspired, it would be irrational to think Paul's theology was opposed to his theology, and he was too intelligent to have missed that big a disagreement in his own thinking. But if we believe it's inspired, God couldn't have spoken in disagreement with His own meaning in a trillion years. I have been told that, in His sovereignty and for His own glory, He has _a "right" to lie!_ But He has at very least committed Himself to not lie; His word is true, and not one jot or tittle will pass away. Besides, He cannot lie. He is truth, and of truth; it is in His nature to be all about truth and to love truth, and to speak in truth. Does Jesus draw all men unto Himself? If He does, all men don't cone to Him, so it cannot be true that all whom He draws come to Him. His drawing cannot be irresistible dragging, or else all men would come to Him, and they sure do not. Is His drawing of some people--through the Holy Spirit, by the way, the Spirit of truth--insincere? It could not be. . So does that mean that He was incorrect? He predicated His drawing all men on His going to the cross; that's a pretty solid foundation for believing He does draw all men, and that He does so in complete sincerity.

[@Mcfirefly2]

It isn't some pride in autonomy that our carnal minds cherish that is the problem. It is conscience.

[@AlanaL3]

I’d love to hear from this brother again.

[@eugenejoseph7076]

Unfortunately after, unknowingly attending a new church that is turning out to be a very committed TULIP, the sense my wife and I have every time we present another perspective on the sermon during our small group Bible study, we get this comment every time, "it's in the Bible!" with many rolling their eyes at our views! It is becoming very difficult to feel accepted when we feel so disrespected. It true about many Calvinist, that they are unaware of their self righteousness. So sad. As there are literally no churches in our area of southern Ontario that are not reformed, unhinged charismatic, or obey the foolish COVID non sense. I am at a point that I am starting to think Calvinism is a heresy and blinds people into believing that our Lord's sacrifice is limited to a few!! How can anyone believe in one side John 1, the Word was God! And at the same think His sacrifice is not BIG enough for His World. Not good!

[@neilbeyers9786]

Eugene, it sounds like the TULIP church you mention is hyper calvinist not original calvinist, Its all about emphasis even on the same doctrines. There are major differences between the two. The problem is unless you know original calvinism you won't discern the difference and hyper calvinists are more prevalent in our day sorry to say. Im reformed in my understanding of scripture and I dont receive the hyper camp to well. Thanks for your post. Neil

[@cliffhutchison861]

I can say the same thing about the church situation where i live (southern Arizona), and from what I know about a variety of places, this is not unique to a few areas, but increasingly common throughout the "post-Christian" world. It takes a very rare combination of elements to make a church that doesn't fall for this or that deception, so virtually all churches are going to fall for one of the big lies of our day. First, it takes a pastor (or head elder, etc) that both cares about the scripture and is able to think independently from what the dominant "bible believing" seminaries teach, because all of the seminaries have a commitment to a theology because they're affiliated with a denomination that has a commitment to a theology. Next, it takes a leadership team (elders or co-pastors) who are able to communicate understandably with each other and the public about what they believe without crumbling under the inevitable attack from the mobs of pagan zealots that have multiplied and are empowered by so many institutions in our society. The attacks are not direct physical attacks, they are subtle undermining tactics like "asking" a church to issue an apology to some "marginalized" group of people, or demand that the church make a statement that sounds perfectly benign ("Black Lives Matter", or "Stop the spread, we're all in this together") but many members of the church will disagree because they know what it really means. Church leaders need to be both strong in their convictions about God's truth while being "loving" in the eyes of their critics to dodge both bullets. But this is increasingly difficult because the critics continually expand what "being loving" means and among the critics are fellow Christians who disagree with your convictions about what God's truth is. People who fulfill those requirements are in very short supply and even the people who have those abilities are being pushed to take sides in matters that they really don't understand, but think they do. Widespread deception, confusion, fear and irrationality is the short explanation for why it is hard to find a church that is likely to survive the immediate future with even remotely biblical teachings intact.

[@highdesertfarm5067]

Start a house church. There's no way you are the only ones in your area that feel this way.

[@lindadodd3829]

I was inundated with Calvinism and severely upset about it. I wept and was up the entire night, begging God to help me..His Holy Spirit gave me "ever learning and unable to come to the Truth...". I found it on ... 2 Timothy chapter 3. I thought it harsh, but was corrected that this was the answer and as harsh as it was to me, being a doer of the Word is FROM SUCH TURN AWAY.

[@HiVisl]

This was great. Thank you so much for such quality interviews.

[@MarkusGhambari]

Really enjoyed this interview.

[@Kyle-vb3fz]

Man, I'm not saying I'm Calvinist or not, but it doesn't matter to me. Can't man's free will and God's soverignty exist together? At least in a limited way?

[@jaygee2187]

Kyle YES,YES,YES! Absolutely! To say that God is sovereign is to say that God is the supreme ruler, possessing ultimate power, and ruling as He chooses. In Gods sovereignty He has created mankind with the freedom to make uncoerced choices, the freedom to choose or refrain from choosing. Mankind, having the freedom to make choices, does not necessarily have the ability to successfully perform that which he has chosen. For instance, when it comes to seeking to be free from his burden of sin and status of being separated from God, man can choose to earn freedom from sin and gaining intimacy with God, but he will never be successful by making that choice. The only choice man can make that will lead to success is the choice to reject his own ability to perform what is necessary for salvation, and trust Jesus as having performed what is necessary. God has, in eternity past, sovereignly decided that those who trust Jesus He will save by placing His Spirit in them, who washes and regenerates us.

[@gk.4102]

Using standard definitions of words, there're no conflicts between God's sovereignty and man's freewill. But using Calvinistic definitions, then the contraction becomes really apparent. That's why they had to invent "compatibilism" which masks the conflict without addressing it.

[@Mcfirefly2]

They do, but according to Calvinists, sovereignty means God makes all the _real_ decisions and man just acts out the nature God has saddled man with. Some, those He predestined to be saved, for His glory, He regenerates/they are born again, but this is before they believe, or can believe. All the rest, He supposedly keeps in darkness because He doesn't want them saved, supposedly also "for His glory and good pleasure". This cannot be true, because the Bible says otherwise, over and over. That is the God we believe in, the Bible's God, not Augustine's god. We believe that God makes decisions whether to reveal or hide His truth from us, based on how we have received or rejected the light we have been given. And that's true, whether He makes them now or in eternity past. We believe that there are decisions He makes in complete sovereignty, without consulting us or consudering what we mught choose. But we also believe that there are choices that have been given to us, and that He has given them to us in sincerity, since He holds us responsible for them, and that He is not dishonest in making us responsible because we are.

[@Kyle-vb3fz]

@@Mcfirefly2 Very good explanation my friend

[@Mcfirefly2]

@@Phill0old Joseph's brothers were not allowed to do what they intended, but they did do what they were allowed to get by with, and it was them who did it. God did not have to move them like puppets to play a part in His scenario. In fact, God did not have to cause them to sin in order to get Joseph over to Egypt, then get the children of Israel over there, because they sinned enough on their own to put them to use getting Joseph sold in slavery. The fact that the Bible says that God does not tempt anyone to sin, means something. It is not a cheap, false disclaimer. If God forced people to sin, as if He had to force them to sin in order to use their sin that good may come out of it, it would be extremely cynical on the part of God to say that He doesn't tempt us to sin. And God is truth: the Spirit of truth; the way, the truth and the life. To make God deceptive is diabolical, and it betrays the gnostic, pagan origins of making God's predestination the predestination of every thought, word and deed. That is a pagan idea, one that Augustine brought into Christian doctrine from gnosticism, and it works like other gnostic doctrine to accuse God of evil. It makes God's protestations of righteousness and truth into just that, a convenient cover for the real-deal secret will that is contrary to it. It makes God a deceiver who's the enemy of man, just like the gods and Fates of paganism.

[@chosenonebygod]

There is only one option, "Scripture in Context!"

[@JesusLovesBest]

God has real good things in store for you both! The annointing breaks the yoke! Isn't that what we want? NEED!?

[@Hollyhock7]

This is outstanding. The honesty is just beautiful and I'm excited people will be forever changed by this message❤

[@thebestdothereis]

(James 3:1 NTVR) Be not many [of you] teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgement. (James 3:1 EMTV) My brothers, let not many become teachers, knowing that we [YOU TEACHERS, PASTORS] shall receive greater judgement.

[@garyluce4268]

Iron sharpens iron but the Proverbs 18:17 advice is pretty good. Most of us just talk with those who agree with us.

[@rachelwarren4685]

This is rocking my world this morning. Both this AND the sermon you provided the link to... just wow ❤

[@truth7416]

Yes the Calvinist god is merciful by punishing by torture those he forced to commit the very sins he came up with! Good job Baucham Sproul, Calvin, MacArthur, Washer, Piper. No wonder millions flock to the merciful Calvin god! The real God of Creation said this of His love for all man and the Created Universe. Psalms 145:9 The Lord is good to ALL; he has compassion on ALL he has made. Little different from the evil cruel god of calvinism isn't it? The real Jesus said in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! Wake up and turn to God who loves you . "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love!

[@bornagainbeliever1429]

I’m so glad this channel came through in my KZbin feed 🙏🏻🙌🏻

[@metalmedic7211]

Thank u to The Lord leading me to your channel

[@kimberleerivera3334]

Thank you Leighton Flowers! GLORY TO GOD!

[@webanon]

This was a long listen, but I really appreciated Brad's discussion of his five points of exploration offered around 44 minutes.

[@audofit]

I feel like I'm going to "lose" all my Calvinist friends - I don't even know what church to go to or how to find one. I've only been in churches taught by Master's seminarians (all my friends went there). I even went to Grace for a while. From my background, I've been told there's only two options - strong preaching or weak prosperity preaching churches. I don't even know where to start finding a church that isn't Calvinist or Arminian, but just middle Provisionist. I don't want to cause any quarreling either but it just feels like the blinders have been lifted off this past month after listening to this perspective. But I'm also still researching.

[@sweethometreasures]

We move around the country a lot. Some areas are easier to find a solid church than others. I just want to encourage you to pray on it. If there's a Calvary Chapel in your area, you may want to check it out. God bless.

[@elaineauo]

Hey there, friend. Just finished praying for you. I saw your message some months back. Just checking in to see how things are in the church looking. May our sweet gracious Lord guide you! Blessings. Your sister in Christ, ~Elaine.

[@audofit]

@Elaine O wow, thank you for praying for me! I can't believe another person on the internet would pray for me months after this comment. Yes, I did find a church that isn't either of those camps but in the middle! I moved to Portland, and I'm attending Door of Hope. I'm going to meet with one of the pastors to talk about this a little more in a couple weeks. Thank you again!

[@elaineauo]

@@audofit praise the Lord. So happy to hear this!! Pray your meeting with the pastors goes well, my friend. ~Blessings

[@larryscott6672]

It is the saddest thing when a person that calls themself a “Christian”, meaning a follower of Christ, and then decides to follow the doctrines of a man. There is only One Teacher. That teacher is to be Holy Spirit. If you are following Calvin, if you are following Arminius, if you are following Wesley, if you are following Graham, if you are following any man and not Holy Spirit, you are following a man. And his doctrine is flawed. A man cannot have all the truth. Jesus has all the truth. If you want to be like Jesus Christ, then learn from Him. His sheep will hear His voice and will not listen to the voice of another. The disciple is not above his Master, but when he has been taught properly (by Holy Spirit), he will be as his Master. If any man wants to do the will of God, he will know whether the teaching is of a man or of God. It is all from Jesus Christ or nothing, there is no middle. The middle is spit out. The only learning you can get from man is through Holy Spirit in one man communicating to Holy Spirit in another man. That spirit is to be tested. So as not to be deceived. Never accept anything from any teacher until Holy Spirit has confirmed it and made it true to you.

[@larryscott6672]

Christ gave you a Holy Spirit. You still have this gift in you. So you don't need anyone to teach you. The Holy Spirit He gave you teaches you about everything. It is a true gift, not a false one. So continue to live in Christ, as His gift taught you. 1 John 2:27

[@J_a_s_o_n]

@@larryscott6672 that's FALSE DOCTRINE! Christ gave men gifts (anointing - supernatural power) to teach , preach etc READ EPHESIANS CHAPTER 4 from verse 11. The problem is satan imitates everything GOD does. He has planted false pastors , teachers , APOSTLES, prophets , Evangelist etc

[@larryscott6672]

exactly

[@larryscott6672]

@@J_a_s_o_n Please give scripture to prove what is false

[@alexz2702]

Love the video. One thing that scares me is how sure I used to be about my faith, after Calvinism shattered for me I'm afraid my next thing is going to be wrong. I'll never give up though.

[@lindathomas2264]

I feel the same way!!!!

[@alexz2702]

@@lindathomas2264 Yeah, I guess now I just try to follow the most fundamental tenets of the bible and not get caught up in all the extra stuff!

[@truth7416]

Yes the Calvinist god is merciful by punishing by torture those he forced to commit the very sins he came up with! Good job Baucham Sproul, Calvin, MacArthur, Washer, Piper. No wonder millions flock to the merciful Calvin god! The real God of Creation said this of His love for all man and the Created Universe. Psalms 145:9 The Lord is good to ALL; he has compassion on ALL he has made. Little different from the evil cruel god of calvinism isn't it? The real Jesus said in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! Wake up and turn to God who loves you . "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love!

[@AnathemaMysticalcel]

Has anyone else noticed that people are not saved by the doctrines of calvinism? That calvanism is learned after the fact? I have never heard a testimony that sounded calvanistic. Example, "I professed belief in Christ because I was predestined to." They usually state that they believed first, then discovered calvanism is "true" usually much much later.

[@moonscore]

Thank you for the insightful interview, brothers.

[@bradberger6145]

Only God's truth can set you free.

[@jennamarielovesjesus12]

When it says “leaving Calvinism” sounds like almost as if they leaving a cult Usually hear, Leaving Mormonism/Leaving the Watchtower/ Leaving Catholicism So weird and I listen to a few Calvinist, I DO NOT agree with Calvinism/ TULIP at ALL but I love most of their teachings , just like KJV only baptists who I follow (well actually it’s only one lol) I love his teachings but I am not a KJV only I am a Follower of Christ …. Disciple of Christ

[@meanman6992]

Helpful video, thanks for the discussion.

[@Steve20333]

it's good he found truth . can't Imagine how much damge calvinism does !

[@PATTIRAY]

Leighton : I thought I heard Arminianism being equated to semi-Pelagianism in the discussion on the ordo salutis. Do you see a distinction between the two?

[@johnrose1699]

We won't think you're still being "mean" if you don't fall all over people like Piper as being a sweet, well-intended people. Enough of the niceties about these wolves in sheep's clothing. It seems like you spend half of the time almost apologizing to these people. By speaking hard truth about the celebrity calvinists, you're not going to cause us to hate them, but you're NOT doing them any favors by assuring them (and us) they "mean well"... as they deceive people.

[@jamesmott2288]

Why would you hire/support Calvinism? A very false and dangerous doctrine. Why would you support that false doctrine?

[@monicawilson896]

This is such a needed conversation. Your points are helpful for me. Thank you for sharing.

[@truth7416]

Yes the Calvinist god is merciful by punishing by torture those he forced to commit the very sins he came up with! Good job Baucham Sproul, Calvin, MacArthur, Washer, Piper. No wonder millions flock to the merciful Calvin god! The real God of Creation said this of His love for all man and the Created Universe. Psalms 145:9 The Lord is good to ALL; he has compassion on ALL he has made. Little different from the evil cruel god of calvinism isn't it? The real Jesus said in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! Wake up and turn to God who loves you . "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love!

[@stevenkim6812]

Very refreshing to hear his story, thank you

[@MarkRidlen]

As far as the most important point in systematic theology I would have gone with "a fool does not delight in wisdom, only in expressing his opinion" but that one is good too 😂

[@HikeRx]

I sense through the spirit that predestination is a false doctrine. It just does not sit right. It feels wrong. Experience alone clearly indicates that God has given us free will.

[@Do_not_at_me_bro]

Exactly, and God has given us all the free gift of salvation, it's already ours. Whether we respond to this truth with belief or unbelief is proof God has given us the ability to respond, which is our response-ability. We deserve death because they are wages, but we have been given the free gift of salvation not because we're good, but because God is good. Belief is a response and unbelief is also a response, and the reason belief puts us in right standing before God is because it is good to believe in truth, (Jesus is the truth) the reason unbelief puts us in condemnation is because by not believing in what God has already done for us, we make God out to be a liar.

[@laurianer6576]

@@Do_not_at_me_bro so CLEAR 🙌🏽

[@ivylagrone8632]

QUESTION: So how do we go about learning how to exegete exactly what the best scholars of both sides think? There's SO many supposed proof texts and angles to this. I'd love a resource or two that narrows things down to a succinct list or something like that.

[@TanyaMBowers]

…thank you, thank you, thank you…praise God for your eyes that saw and ears that heard… and praise God for your Wisdom…

[@robertlulek1634]

if you listen to a pastor like Charles Stanley preaching versus a pastor like John MacArthur you can see the love of God in Charles Stanley and the self-righteousness and legalism in John MacArthur

[@JonathanGrandt]

Robert Lulek and then there’s his son, Andy..............

[@vcu1344]

Robert Lulek exactly!!

[@innovationhq8230]

Both are false teachers.

[@TimWolfe3760]

I wish Charles wood go on live TV, Get on his knees In front of the world and denounce His oath that he swore to the American flag, and announce his citizenship, and allegiance To Jesus and His kingdom which is not of this world.

[@truserv1]

Man you could not be farther from the Truth. By the way Biblically Charles should not be a Pastor since His Divorce.

[@joshharstine6969]

In accordance with your request to know the opposing exegesis: Please present your exegesis of Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 (which was missing from your debate with James White). I would genuinely love to hear your interpretation of scripture. Conversation can only happen when both sides of a conversation are heard. Please make your self heard!

[@lynnmaleski2470]

Thank you both so much for speaking up about this. I remarried 3 years ago (both of our spouses passed away from cancer), and I had no idea that my new husband believes in Calvinism and that the church did until over a year into our marriage. The church "hides" it most of the time and sneaks in their wording so that people are indoctrinated without knowing it. They were outright the other summer and did a FOUR-PART (yes - 4 Sunday sermons) on Calvinism/Predestination. I knew it was wrong from the get-go but I researched it. My research still found it wrong. Every fiber of my body is screaming that this is wrong on so many levels. But, I cannot explain to the Calvinists what predestination, elect, chosen really means. Now I have some guidance and will continue to learn so that I can help shed the light. My husband and friends now admit that they are not 5-point Calvinists so that is helpful, but they still point out that I'm the only one against it so I must be the one who is wrong. What is the church in Texas that is planting so many churches?

[@TAdler-ex8px]

This was SO encouraging!!! The Lord Jesus gave us the ministry of reconciliation not reformation. We’re His ambassadors. Would you urge someone to the feast by telling them not to trust your masters invitation to come? If ALL is too simple and you’re craving a deeper theology then perhaps Christ isn’t formed in you yet. You need your first love. For God so loved the world 🌎 Let God handle the details of predestination.

[@kenfroehlich444]

What about people who are going through and have been going through the EXACT same scenario. A young reform Baptist preacher who did not say he was one, literally through dissension kicked230 members out hired nothing but tulips. He is Solomons son

[@sebd8425]

"I got an axle lose on the Calvinism wagon." Lol

[@truth7416]

Yes the Calvinist god is merciful by punishing by torture those he forced to commit the very sins he came up with! Good job Baucham Sproul, Calvin, MacArthur, Washer, Piper. No wonder millions flock to the merciful Calvin god! The real God of Creation said this of His love for all man and the Created Universe. Psalms 145:9 The Lord is good to ALL; he has compassion on ALL he has made. Little different from the evil cruel god of calvinism isn't it? The real Jesus said in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! Wake up and turn to God who loves you . "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love!

[@gregorylock]

27:20 Does anyone have the link to the Sermon by Kevin Thompson, on Ephesians 1? Because I've never heard Kevin before, I don't know what I'm looking for.

[@IveSeenSupernatural]

God bless both these men for their testimonies and work on this subject

[@truth7416]

Preachers tend to over emphasize the tenets of TULIP is like saying only take half the poison. It is still death. This is what has happened to the minds of a Calvinist and willingly! 2 Corinthians 11:4. 3 I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily. Calvinism is a total Doctrine of Demons, another gospel and all those who promote it are guilty of being false teachers. The truth is clear to those who seek it.

[@hansbylewis2144]

There is one verse of scripture that put Calvinism to rest and it is this. "For God so love the world that he give his Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life". Jn 3:16

[@JustMe-mn4gr]

re-watch this video. They agree that scripture does not work to deprogram a calvinist.

[@claytonbenignus4688]

I have been burned before by Stealth Calvinism. I'm glad you brought that up when you addressed the topic of Integrity.

[@ewallt]

I really enjoyed this. I went through a similar experience, so it was easy to relate to. It’s very challenging when your core beliefs are challenged and you have to try to make sense of the world.

[@ewallt]

@AVB2 Sure, but not for the reason you’re suggesting. At least, that’s certainly not the only one. For example, assuming I’m reading you correctly, you’re a Calvinist; if not, sorry I misread your comment. If so, then that God ordained evil should exist is something people find problematic. Another is that God would predestined infants for eternal damnation. Not all Calvinists believe this, but many do. Another thing many have issues with is that everything they do or think or decide was decreed by God. Another is the idea that God would degree suffering, torture, rape etc. for His glory. Again, not all Calvinists believe this, but many do, asserting that everything God does is to maximize His glory. Also your assertion is wrong on its own merits. Anyone saved by Christ, having repented and received Him as their Savior, believes like Paul that “This is a worthy saying that Christ died to save sinners, of whom I am chief.” I’ve never met a converted Christian who boasted in themselves as the means of their salvation. “God forbid that I should boast, save in the cross of Christ my Lord.”

[@jefferypassagecpa9125]

I thank this man for his candor. It appears that the goal of the SBC is to convert traditional churches to Calvinism. The SBC wants to give both systematics dynamic equivalence to maintain membership. Long run, won't work.

[@jefferypassagecpa9125]

@@ravissary79 I gotta get out of the SBC. Our church is SBC only because they financed the building.

[@rtgray7]

Jeffery Passage CPA: The SBC already left us. They changed the language of the statements/by laws thus changing the fundamental, John 3:16-esque message of Southern Baptist. Even democracies have a base to which can not be removed in order to stand. I love and appreciate Leighton but I so wish he would continue in love while cutting out all the "in-house" or "side issue" rhetoric and just draw a line. Let the Calvinist start a convention of Adult Baptized Presbyterians or whatever they want to call it because Reformed Calvinistic Determinism, besides being a man-made philosophy and thus not biblical, is most certainly NOT traditional Southern Baptist.

[@jefferypassagecpa9125]

@@ravissary79 The SBC gives Calvinism and Traditionalism equal validity in the same denomination. There needs to be just ONE cogent statement of faith. Currently, the SBC is covering both cheeks, and it's all because of money and power.

[@jefferypassagecpa9125]

@@rtgray7 I agree. At least, openly declare whether or not a church is Calvinist. But they hide it because they know it's not acceptable to most congregants.

[@20july1944]

@@gregb6469 When the SBC was started in the 1840s, EVERY ONE of the founders believed in slavery, that's why they split the American Baptist church into north and south. Another proud day for 5-point Calvinists!

[@BenElyon3]

Errmmm guys. It seems Dr. James White doesn't like roses. Why?

[@diegovisoso408]

He prefers tulips?

[@truth7416]

Yes the Calvinist god is merciful by punishing by torture those he forced to commit the very sins he came up with! Good job Baucham Sproul, Calvin, MacArthur, Washer, Piper. No wonder millions flock to the merciful Calvin god! The real God of Creation said this of His love for all man and the Created Universe. Psalms 145:9 The Lord is good to ALL; he has compassion on ALL he has made. Little different from the evil cruel god of calvinism isn't it? The real Jesus said in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! Wake up and turn to God who loves you . "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love!

[@geraldpolmateer3255]

For a pastor to admit he is wrong says a lot about him. He is an example of a humble man. God blesses humility and teachability. I think it was E.D. Hirsch who wrote that the number one thing students want to see in their teachers is that they are learners. People may not remember much of what we say, but they will remember who we are. When I was a seminary student I had questions I wanted answers for. The professor I thought would likely have answers, at times told me that he didn't know. He was the director of the doctoral program. His attitude and humility encouraged me to continue to learn.

[@jimsey93]

In regards to the conversation you had at the end, who are the top theologians from your position? As a brand new Calvinist, I would be very interested in reading after them and their opinions on this.

[@allenhansen4869]

James Hill is

[@hillbillyheadcam1729]

Jesus is the only true theologian. Searching for mans approval sbout God's ways is what got us into this mess of "isms" in the first place. The bible means exactly what it says. Men with their intellect twist scriptures to their own liking. Run from theologians.The pharisees were theologians. Jesus said thank you Father for revealing these things not to the wise and learned( theologians) but to babes( simple dudes, fishermen) Were any of the disciples theologians? No in fact the pharisees marveled that they spoke so powerfully without being learned men. Calvinism takes the most important teacher out of the equation( The Holy Spirit) and replaces it with intellectualism and human pride. Trust me brother, RUN AWAY FROM calvinism, RUN AWAY from theologians. Run toward the Holy Spirit and The Word of God.

[@averagejoe7333]

Intellectuals find the gospel very difficult to understand. I still dont understand why it's easy for some folks and difficult for others. Only Jesus knows why...

[@bkahlerventer]

I think 2 definitions are in order... False teacher in christianity is a teacher who does not belive the gospel himself, he views his work as just another job, he is false. A teacher with falsehoods in his teaching (known or unknown by himself) he is not a false teacher, he is a teacher with falsehoods... The teacher MUST believe the gospel primarily, otherwise he is a false teacher

[@stevebegin2489]

The sermon link is not working any longer. Is there possibly an alternative source?

[@clearway]

I have searched via KZbin, Google, Facebook, and several other sites and I found nothing but a small collection of broken links. Can anyone help us find the original sermon from 6 years ago? Thanks!

[@finrambo3594]

Thank you

[@oldclassicwildmanchris2007]

The ONLY verses that make me wonder if Calvinism IS true is, "I will have mercy upon Whom I will have mercy, and "It is not of Him that willeth or runneth, but of GOD THAT SHOWETH MERCY." HELP!!!

[@clwhite1127]

Hey! Look up some videos on Soteriology101 regarding Romans 9. Or purchase Leightons book, The Potters Promise.

[@editsofawesomeness]

No problem friend! That just means that you can only be saved when God grants you mercy, which is what non-calvinists also believe. Through Jesus' act of suffering and dying on the cross, God's mercy has spread to everyone who believes. We are not saved through our own deeds or own will, but only through what God has done and his mercy!

[@thevoiceofonecallingout]

Here ya go. This type of phrasing, somewhat commonly used throughout the New Testament, is employed not to eliminate one alternative, but rather it is used to emphasize one factor over another. It is not a statement of exclusion, instead it declares relative significance. Here are examples: • John 6:27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life ..." • John 12:44 "Then Jesus cried out and said, "He believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me" • Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." In this first verse, is Jesus commanding us not to work for earthly food? Clearly, the answer is no. In fact Paul specifically tells us the opposite "for he who shall not work shall not eat." Is Jesus saying in the second verse that those who believe in Jesus really don't believe in Him but only in the Father? No. Is Jesus saying in the third verse that we must truly hate our families to follow Him? No. The point of this is clear. God is de-emphasizing the will and the works, but not eliminating them. So does God exercise mercy? Yes. Do we need God's mercy? Yes. Does God call? Yes. Is man's will or effort irrelevant? No, at least not according to the breadth of gospel writings. We cite John 1:12 as an example of the active verb to receive (which, according to the language, is something man does by his own choice; there are many other examples if we look at the Greek).

[@truth7416]

Yes the Calvinist god is merciful by punishing by torture those he forced to commit the very sins he came up with! Good job Baucham Sproul, Calvin, MacArthur, Washer, Piper. No wonder millions flock to the merciful Calvin god! The real God of Creation said this of His love for all man and the Created Universe. Psalms 145:9 The Lord is good to ALL; he has compassion on ALL he has made. Little different from the evil cruel god of calvinism isn't it? The real Jesus said in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! Wake up and turn to God who loves you . "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love!

[@BK-yz7px]

So, the Calvinist is OK with jumping to a verse in Acts to defend their use of “all,” but when a non-Calvinist uses a similar approach to deal with “dead” (nekrous) in various passages, all hell breaks loose with the Calvinist.

[@hymnsake]

I see what you did there :^)

[@flamemojis]

3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") - dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.

[@BK-yz7px]

yaowadeez snm The Bible uses “nekrous” in the story of the Prodigal son who was “dead” then made “alive” while he was actually a living person making choices, even returning home. The Bible also uses “nekrous” in Revelation 3 when he calls the Church of Sardis “dead,” even though they are also living people making choices and can correct their errors by listening and responding to Jesus. “Dead” in the Bible in context is not limited to a Lazarus-like figure who can’t even respond to God’s call, as the Calvinists insist.

[@flamemojis]

@@BK-yz7px ...I guess.

[@BK-yz7px]

Phil Saunders That’s a whole bunch of reading a systematic into the text and not actually what the Bible says. The Corinthian church was able to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and Paul called them brothers, but then he says they are living carnally and cannot accept the deeper spiritual things. That’s why he taught milk and not meat. You may want to check the context of a verse before using it for your argument.

[@biblicalunderstanding8233]

Is there a new link for the sermon.

[@valeriereneeharper]

The link to his apology in the description is not available anymore?

[@jamesclark4809]

My fear is that these men who embrace the doctrines of grace, which I am one. Is that they actually followed the doctrine and not Jesus. Every Calvinist who is saved will glorify Christ and show the love of Christ. It seems neo-Calvinism is all about the doctrine and not Jesus. The fruit of the Spirit is a reality in all believer's Love, Joy, Peace...etc. I am fearful many who hold this precious doctrine make it an idol and are those who are simply lost. Jesus warns us in Matthew 15:18-19.

[@truth7416]

Its funny but really sad. If you talk to a MORMON about their founder Joseph Smith who invented the movement in 1820. If you were to say that it is heresy for Joseph Smith to say that Jesus was just an ordinary man like any man, that then evolved into a god who then created this universe. And he also teaches that all men will evolve to god hood and then create their own universes. They and their wives will then create and populate that universe by their off spring. The first thing they do is...... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES !! If you talk to a JEHOVAH WITNESS about their founder Charles Taze Russell who invented the movement in 1870. If you were to say that it is heresy for Charles Russell to say that Jesus was really Michael the Arch Angel that came to earth and became Jesus for a period of time and is now back being an Angel. The first thing they do is..... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! If you talk to a MUSLIM about their founder Muhammad who invented the movement in 570 AD. If you were to say that it is heresy Muhammad to say that Jesus was just a minor prophet and not God in the flesh. The first thing they do is.... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND THE HIS DISCIPLES!! If you talk to a CALVINIST about their founder John Calvin who invented the movement in 1536. If you were to say that it is heresy for John Calvin to say Quote "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) and “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11) The first thing they do is .... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! Lets look at the greatest living disciple of Calvinism living today John Piper and what he has to say. QUOTE from is website... "God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . . . If you talk to a Christian about their founder The LORD JESUS CHRIST who started the movement before the Universe began. If you were to say that it is heresy to say that Jesus is the Son of God! The Messiah! The saviour of the World! God in the Flesh! The only true God! The Creator! Love! The first thing the Christian would do is.... DEFEND THE CREATOR!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! They would turn to Gods Word, like: 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! John Piper, Paul Washer, R.C.Sproul, John MacArthur, Baucham and James White and many others. Wake up and turn to God who loves you, while you still live and have a choice. "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love and absolute sincerity!

[@chrisstevens1156]

When this guy finished his sermon(link)..that I just watched...he said that God honors your choice and says..."thy will be done" you dont know how unsettling and how that almost erased everything he said in his sermon. When you hold to these concepts...you cant help but say odd things like this. Very unsettling. I will have to pray abut this. Anybody have a link where saab goes thru john 6 and romans 9?

[@truth7416]

Its funny but really sad. If you talk to a MORMON about their founder Joseph Smith who invented the movement in 1820. If you were to say that it is heresy for Joseph Smith to say that Jesus was just an ordinary man like any man, that then evolved into a god who then created this universe. And he also teaches that all men will evolve to god hood and then create their own universes. They and their wives will then create and populate that universe by their off spring. The first thing they do is...... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES !! If you talk to a JEHOVAH WITNESS about their founder Charles Taze Russell who invented the movement in 1870. If you were to say that it is heresy for Charles Russell to say that Jesus was really Michael the Arch Angel that came to earth and became Jesus for a period of time and is now back being an Angel. The first thing they do is..... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! If you talk to a MUSLIM about their founder Muhammad who invented the movement in 570 AD. If you were to say that it is heresy Muhammad to say that Jesus was just a minor prophet and not God in the flesh. The first thing they do is.... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND THE HIS DISCIPLES!! If you talk to a CALVINIST about their founder John Calvin who invented the movement in 1536. If you were to say that it is heresy for John Calvin to say Quote "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) and “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11) The first thing they do is .... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! Lets look at the greatest living disciple of Calvinism living today John Piper and what he has to say. QUOTE from is website... "God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . . . If you talk to a Christian about their founder The LORD JESUS CHRIST who started the movement before the Universe began. If you were to say that it is heresy to say that Jesus is the Son of God! The Messiah! The saviour of the World! God in the Flesh! The only true God! The Creator! Love! The first thing the Christian would do is.... DEFEND THE CREATOR!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! They would turn to Gods Word, like: 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Calvinist god followers say that their god blinds the eyes of the Non-elect so they cannot see or understand the gospel. Yet it is they who have been blinded by Satan. Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing. Satan leads the whole World astray. Nothing makes people hate God faster than Calvinism. Nothing turns people into Atheists faster than Calvinism! Nothing kills hope and love faster than Calvinism! Yet they are wise in their own eyes and lost in their souls and hearts.They gather around themselves those who speak the same lie! John Piper, Paul Washer, R.C.Sproul, John MacArthur, Baucham and James White and many others. Wake up and turn to God who loves you, while you still live and have a choice. "Repent and be Baptized before your life is spent and there is no more hope for you! This can be the day of your salvation. In Love and absolute sincerity!

[@mosart7025]

Was he quoting from C.S. Lewis? “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, *"Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done."* All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it.

[@matthewbrown9029]

I'm a member of a Calvinist church and have been coming out of Calvinism for a few months now. My pastors are incredibly humble and patient and kind and have done an excellent job at exuding the best qualities of a follower of Christ. I know there are arrogant pastors elsewhere but God has blessed my church with amazing elders. God bless you, Paul, Garrett, and Todd. I hope you can come to these conclusions one day. I will not be a member there much longer (because of Calvinist doctrine) but am careful to not stir up division. The members are very kind to one another and also to other Christians. I do love this family!

[@mosart7025]

Wow... that has to be difficult. Our denomination is headed towards Progressive or Emergent. I brought it to the pastor's attention (he was always right on) and never heard back from him, although I did hear that at an elders' meeting he mentioned something about possibly having to choose between the denomination or the Bible (not related to what I brought to him, I don't think). He retired and I haven't brought it up yet with the new younger pastor. Like you, I think our elders are very God and Bible focused, but I'm not sure how they would handle the facts (I have a 4 page paper with documentation and quotes) and I am afraid to stir up division also. And it seems like almost all churches are buying into the Emergent fallacy (or they are Calvinists!) I'll pray for you and you pray for us!

[@matthewbrown9029]

@@mosart7025 thank you, brother! You really are in a pickle! I'm not familiar with emergent theology so I don't know what to say there. I'll be praying