A Look at Riddles (Voy)

[@bradwolf07]

If Neelix had been handled like he did in this episode more often, Neelix wouldn't be so despised. And Tim Russ is once again fantastic as Tuvok. So many actors have trouble with Vulcans, but Tim Russ knows how to handle one. Another episode that shows the lost potential of Voyager

[@mimkyodar]

The one thing I've come to appreciate on rewatching it is just how good Tim Russ is as Tuvok. his performance is just so good

[@Zeithri]

Meanwhile here I am, laughing my ass off, because no one folds quicker under interrogation than Tuvok.

[@lordmontymord8701]

@@Zeithri Well you can compare this to Worf, who we were mostly only told in TNG is this great fighter, only to get kicked around by so many alien threads, because they wanted to show how dangerous these aliens are ...

[@KiltedCritic]

"Disappoints in not being more." - That's pretty much Voyager as a series summed up.

[@myriadmediamusings]

Given how a lot these days love to crap over Discovery, Picard, and (to a lesser extent) Lower Decks, I admit it is a bit refreshing to remember that once upon a time, Voyager and Enterprise were the ones that were hated.

[@planescaped]

I was starting to like Enterprise before it got the firing squad. Shame it wasn't given the chance TNG got... And I think Voyager only got such an opportunity because it was riding high on TNG and DS9's success. Though Voyager certainly had it's moments, as a whole it was so disappointing and unambitious.

[@SurlySauce]

@@planescaped Agreeing with you that Voyager did get some help from TNG and DS9 but another thing it had going for it was that it was the flagship show of the newly launched network of UPN. For the time it was on UPN it was one of its highest ranked shows. Unfortunately for UPN, they usually ranked at the bottom of all the networks. Because of that viewership UPN wasn't about to cancel Voyager; they really didn't have another show to pull in the numbers. Enterprise was a different story.

[@VoidNull9222]

Even as a kid the whole ‘he survived by eating dates’ thing bugged me. Not only is it wordplay it’s English wordplay spoken by two aliens. Maybe the universal translator has some kind of pun filter

[@MichaelR43]

It makes even less sense when you consider there probably isn't a Vulcan or Talaxian word for a food specifically from Earth.

[@daverapp]

Not as bad as that time that Odo (who likely speaks Cardassian) asked Rom (who speaks Ferengi) to spell out the words he saw on a sign (likely written in Bajoran) and he gives the answer in English.

[@danielyeshe]

It happens all the time in Trek unfortunately. Apparently "deflector" and "defector" sound similar in Ferengi language too.

[@thecynicaloptimist1884]

Meh, to be fair, that happens in all Trek. For example - native Klingons randomly switching between Klingon and English when the translator should be translating _everything_ they say into English.

[@dangerkeith3000]

@@daverapp That could just be translation convention for us watching the show. For all we know, they understand Bajoran (Odo very likely) or at least the symbols. With this episode though, the pun only makes sense in English and the fact that that is what the pun relies on makes it much worse since neither person is speaking English. (Tuvok may know English, but Neelix definitely doesn't) and it even doubles down and has Tuvok give another answer to the riddle (he ate the Sundays) that ALSO only makes sense in English. The most egregious thing though is how they can figure out what the alien frequency was from some scribbles on a cake. It's still a better than average episode of Voyager though, which says a lot.

[@Thurston86]

Whenever I rewatch Voyager, I have to skip this episode. My father suffered a traumatic brain injury that (almost) completely changed who he was. It was difficult for a very long time. This episode always brings me back to those early days and it’s quite depressing. That’s not to say I think it’s a bad episode, I don’t. It’s almost too good in that Tim Russ’ portrayal of someone going through a TBI is spot on and, as a Vulcan, it’s _exactly_ what I imagine it would be like.

[@WDC_OSA]

What gets me in this episode is how squiggly lines on a cake without any indication of scale are enough to be interpreted as the accurate cloaking frequency.

[@hariman7727]

The cake itself is the scale.

[@WDC_OSA]

@@hariman7727 4 peaks per cake

[@KairuHakubi]

"It's.. a sine wave... sine.. SIGN! That's it, their cloaks work by putting up a large warning sign that's set to mimic the area of space behind it, blocking them from view!"

[@lordmontymord8701]

The cake is a lie anyway ...

[@Mecharnie_Dobbs]

​@@hariman7727 Should have been an oblong cake then.

[@myriadmediamusings]

We won’t hold this lapse of judgment against you Tuvok, you were one of the few competent people on the ship and one of the few to not hold your feelings back on Neelix.

[@lordmontymord8701]

Which is why Tuvok murdering a fake Neelix on the Holodeck is still one of my favourite scenes of VOY 😈

[@Ozymandias2x]

"Where are you going?" "To throw myself out of the airlock."

[@kapparomeo]

I think a point that needs emphasising (the episode itself should have made more of it too, really) is that, when the Be'Geth refuse Janeway's overtures, it's actually Narokh who breaks the impasse by volunteering to give up his scanning technology. That is a phenomenal sacrifice on his part - he's spent decades being mocked by his peers as a conspiracy loonie, and yet no sooner had he finally obtained real hard evidence that his theories are actually 100% correct then he felt compelled to destroy it. He invalidated his life's work and ensured he's going to be stuck as a joke for the rest of his career, purely out of charity for the crew of a ship he just met and a Vulcan he doesn't even know. That's truly selfless.

[@nothri]

Surely not completely. He’s in fact proven these people exist. He can verify it and the ship will back him up

[@boobah5643]

@@nothri _Voyager_ isn't sticking around, he has no proof besides their say-so, influential people on his world who'd lose face if Narokh were proven correct, and the probability that the Be'Geth are doing more than just watching passively. Returning home to the status quo ante looks like one of his _better_ outcomes.

[@JonosBtheMC]

The writers gave Neelix the wrong job. One cook for three duty shifts is ridiculous anyway. (No wonder they hated his food, 2/3 of them were eating reheated leftovers.) He had a kind nature and wanted to help. Instead they made him a babbling needy fool, except for the rare occasions where they taunted us with what might have been.

[@lordmontymord8701]

It's so funny that Quark was a great character despite all the weight that was put on him as a member of a species that was just created by Roddenberry to symbolize everything he hated. But the DS9-writers made him work (and Shimermans acting abilities helped too). But the Voy-team took all the wrong lessons ...

[@Deadxman616]

​@@lordmontymord8701quark did what all great people of business do. Sell sex drugs and gambling

[@oddish4352]

And he rocked the gold uniform in "Before and After".

[@andrewshearsby8125]

If Neelix was written like this in more episodes more fans would like him

[@amead78]

Tuvok should have told Neelix to clean a phaser while pointing it at his face.

[@lordmontymord8701]

And the hedgehog would have been stupid enough to do it ...

[@Redrally]

Once again I come to this review after listening to Robbie and Garrett discuss this on their podcast. They REALLY loved this episode. Granted in Robbie's case he might have elevated the score due to his disappointment with 'Alice'

[@benives254]

Of course he's the same being! It's not like he was a distinct new person created by the melding of two others who was then brutally murdered!

[@CT_Phipps]

He was part Neelix, ergo his death was justified.

[@gallendugall8913]

"When Neelix wants to help others its really about him." That's how sociopaths write because that's how they view the universe. Only do something good for others if it benefits you in some way.

[@XxTaiMTxX]

Sadly, this is largely how most of the human populace acts. Return your shopping carts? Who cares if it doesn't affect you? Stand aside to let others through while you have conversations? Who cares, it doesn't affect you to be blocking stuff. On and on. Forever and always. Put children in front of TV's, Ipads, etcetera so you don't have to deal with them and teach them and so you "get a break"? Yeah, that's some sociopathic behavior right there. Give 100% at work? Why bother if you don't think you're paid enough? Go above and beyond all the time doing any task? Why bother if it doesn't benefit you in any way? The human race is LARGELY sociopaths. Very few people AREN'T. And, humanity does it in terms of lame justifications as well. "I EARNED this", "I'm OWED", etcetera. But you know what? I wouldn't have it any other way. Sociopaths are at least easy to manipulate to get them to do what you want. They don't question anything once you tell them the personal benefits they'd get for it.

[@dragon22214]

That's how everyone works

[@Ragitsu]

@@dragon22214 Nope.

[@funkydiscogod]

And nobody ever mentioned Tuvix.

[@lordmontymord8701]

Nobody wants to remember Tuvix ...

[@Ragitsu]

@@lordmontymord8701 Whoovix?

[@Habück]

because he was a slimey kissass who looked ridiculous ...

[@accidentalmadness1708]

Everybody besides janeway probably still feels guilty. They murdered that poor guy.

[@wakeangel2001]

This is one of those episodes that supports my theory about how life in the delta quadrant is shaped by the selective factor of the Borg. Since the Borg come from here most of the surviving species are technologically or culturally primitive, violently militaristic, nomadic, have technology that won't work away from their planet, or in this case, are very VERY good at hiding. Also I don't think these invisible tentacle aliens are going to be a particular threat to the people of this region, my guess is they are descended from survivors of a Borg attack who have decided that hiding is the best option, they only leave their home to make sure nobody is developing technology that can find them, and only hurt people in the rare instances when they are discovered in the act. The fact that that giant space station of theirs isn't able to fight off Voyager shows that they don't exactly put much effort into weapons research.

[@ImaginaryTerrie3]

Werewolf Tuvok? A werevok?

[@Future_Vantas]

But Whyvok?

[@RichardWatt]

@@Future_Vantas Indeed.

[@Krill_all_health_insuranceCEOs]

A Where-To???

[@nicolamarchbank1846]

A Neelix episode that watchable, miracle! It's frustrating that they never found a better use for him than as a bad joke that makes little sense. My guess is that having a castmember direct helped on this occasion, this hinged on the supporting performances being decent and trusting Tim Russ delivering an atypical Tuvok that still had some plausible trace there. And Seven of Nine, voice of reason, AGAIN. I seem to remember her being surprisingly supportive towards him on two other cases, her response to his post-resurrection breakout in 'Mortal Coil' and particularly when she comments on guilt during 'Memorial '. Add in her attempts with the Borg kids, her relationship with Naomi and her advice to Torres in 'Drive' (a favour that is returned in the very next episode). She's developing quite the knack for "logic is the beginning of wisdom" type observations, no doubt that turns out to be a useful skill in her future career as Captain of the freaking Enterprise. The only sane person on a ship of fools....

[@scionofdorn9101]

I've seen it enough that I'm convinced we should eat Harry. It would be merciful.

[@thebaccathatchews]

When is a Vulcan not a Vulcan? When they are ajar.

[@alexandercross9081]

Neelix could have been, should have been so much more

[@DanteCorwyn]

Neelix actually being useful for a change? And around Tuvok? That's a change. I'd have loved it if during that episode with the planet of telepaths who want to give Torres a lobotomy, Neelix found out just why it would be a bad thing to push Tuvok to snapping point.

[@jondorr4011]

Man I really wish I had some of that Romulan marijuana.

[@Krill_all_health_insuranceCEOs]

Don't we all

[@oddish4352]

Only you could make fun of Harry after he 🤬ing SAVED VOYAGER FROM A SNEAK ATTACK!

[@Xondar11223344]

I think this is the second review in a row where Chuck says "FFS" and I am here for it.

[@AdrianWoodUK]

2:16 - OK, wait, hang on. How, excatly, does the "eating the dates from the calendar" riddle work? And no, I don't mean I don't get it... I mean I don't know how Neelix is meant to get it. Neelix, and likely Tuvox as well, are doubtless not speaking English - they're speaking in their native languages, the universal translator does some bullshit bullshit, and they hear each other in their own languages (and we hear them in English). But the riddle is language dependant - it requires that, in your (in this case spoken) language, the word for a particular day on the calendar is identical to the one for something you eat. That's unlikely to be the case for most languages on Earth, let alone the distinct languages of two different alien species, one of whom is from a completely different quadrant of the galaxy. ...I have to go do something so, umm, check back later, I'll be editing in a bunch more that I have to say. Unless I don't, in which case, hey, how're you, hope you're having a good day, take it easy out there.

[@MerelyAFan]

An episode like this really underscores the failed execution of Neelix for much of the series and how he was much improved when they didn't try and make him remotely important in official ship matters. Put Neelix in a more low-key scenario like this one, and the writing and direction can actually serve to get him away from the comic relief emphasis and at least make an attempt at real depth. Even the episode with Naomi was proof of that. Have him on an official mission though and the bad humor and the poor realization of his supposed skills becomes completely overbearing. Rise in season 3 is a great example of this, a Neelix/Tuvok episode where the attempt to make the former a sympathetic character in the conflict largely stalls because he comes off as a stubborn asshole with his complaints about the latter and the exaggeration of his abilities/experience in a critical situation is fundamentally irresponsible. While him as morale officer is fairly absurd at points given his tendencies, overall he did seem to work better when he was a friendly ear and occasional Delta Quadrant guide.

[@VampireNewl]

I think a big problem with Neelix is that the other characters and the framing always seem to take his side. I think if the other characters reacted like they should (with annoyance) and called him out on his actions from time to time the character would have worked better, instead he just comes across as annoying.

[@KairuHakubi]

You've made me realize that situation is almost more of a knock on starfleet. the fact that they're essentially a society of cosmic-level superheroes who simply have no place for the lower-level guy who just stops bank robberies and rescues cats from trees. Like we still need that, and we shouldn't force that to invent a title for itself to justify staying aboard the ship that is _drastically_ low on personnel. did Neelix grift his way aboard? yeah, but their rigidly structured lifestyle intimidated him into it. The concept should have really been that, each season, they pick up a new 'hitchhiker' who helps them through that PART of the Delta Quadrant. and none of us would mind if three of them were Ethan Phillips in different makeup doing a different character.

[@Redshirt434]

So, my head canon about Tuvok and his head injury allowed him to show how he truly feels about Neelix, without his logic and pride in the way.

[@captianmorgan7627]

Wow, no -1 for being a Neelix episode?!

[@marcherwitch9811]

nah, t'other way around! neelixless ones get a +1

[@welme23]

@@marcherwitch9811 This, Neelix was never a minus one. He is a stupid moment though

[@captianmorgan7627]

@@marcherwitch9811 Ah, that's right. Oops.

[@marcherwitch9811]

@@captianmorgan7627 no worries! hope you're having a good day!

[@joelellis7035]

What? Janeway didn't go for the trifecta and demand a Time Turner as well?

[@hariman7727]

This is an excellent episode. If you guys both of the characters and the acting skills of their actors very well. I agree with the sentiment that, had Neelix been written this well more often, he might have actually been the breakout character. If that's the big problem with Neelix. He had a great actor, but was written badly.

[@KairuHakubi]

Schlocky writers can smell a breakout character a mile away, and use him as cruise control thinking he can't possibly fail because breakout characters usually seem to have such unjustified popularity. but in reality they fail all the time, we just don't hear about those as often because their shows usually die. the Family Matters writers put a LOT of work into making Urkel interesting, it wasn't just haha catchphrases big glasses lolol

[@lordmontymord8701]

@@KairuHakubi I think its very amusing that they never learned their lesson on Voyager. The writers/producers knew how Neelix annoyed a lot of people, but they changed nothing (ok, at least they dropped the whole love triangle thing with Kes and Tom, but thats it). Episodes like this where Neelix is actually better are more like an accident. Like Chuck once said in a different review, the writer(s) of that episode likely just haven't gotten the memo, that Neelix is supposed to be stupid.

[@KairuHakubi]

@@lordmontymord8701 well there were a lot of cooks stirring this particular pot, but I think at least a few of them thought VERY little of their audience and thought (rightly) that they would eat this stuff up.

[@Mecharnie_Dobbs]

12:04 They feed this into the computer, so it can jam the aliens' cloak.

[@andyjefferis5533]

I think Neelix is Star Treks version of jar jar binks!

[@KairuHakubi]

I wonder if there was any inspiration here toward Doofus Rick I also never thought about this before but how did they actually put on neck thingies on the show? did they have a little spirit gum on there and had to make sure to call 'action' before it set too far? how many retakes had to happen because the little shits fell off?

[@lordmontymord8701]

Well on Babylon 5 they explained that they use a special molecular bonding material that only works for the person intended to use this specific communicator, so it won't stick to anybody elses body. But on Star Trek? Probably magic. Or a 5 hour technobabble-explanation that is - in the end - like magic.

[@KairuHakubi]

@@lordmontymord8701 sorry, my good misspelled reference to a surprisingly good simpsons season 13 episode, maybe I wasn't clear. How did they ACTUALLY do it on the show? What did the prop guys figure out? Also you don't really understand star trek very well..

[@lordmontymord8701]

@@KairuHakubi And here i thought i would understand a little bit about Trek after watching it for more than 30 years, but if you say so 😂 My remark to magic was more to the overall problem of Trek, especially Voyager, having stupid technobabble solutions that solved every problem very easy, which leaves the audience unsatisfied. And like another youtuber, Linkara, often says about comic book writers using magic as an easy solution: "It's magic and we don't have to explain it!". And i felt reminded of Babylon 5, because not only did they explain the whole communicator (or link) sticking to the hand-thing, this was also used as a plotpoint in one episode. A security guard is murdered and when his body is examined they realize the murderer stole his communicator, because the fake one is just glued to his hand (the murderer didn't have access to the organic bonding tech, so there was no other way for him). Which is once again showing that you can even use minor parts of world building in your story to a great effect.

[@KairuHakubi]

@@lordmontymord8701 yes and that is a very common viewpoint, but it's not accurate. It's like people saying the michael bay movie transformers designs are incomprehensible masses of metal, because you haven't comprehended them. technobabble (except in voyager) is done intelligently and precisely, the opposite of magic storytelling used as an excuse to not make sense. and again all I was wondering is how the prop was done. Can't be spirit gum, no way.

[@Krill_all_health_insuranceCEOs]

Imagine if every episode and the entire backstory of the show was allowed to actually BUILD on what came before?? Where could that have lead us??? What if, instead of nothingness, it was allowed to be coherent, intelligent, mature, serious, consequential, progressive, developing, multi-layered, interlocking, three-dimensional, and rational????? What IF someone assassinated Berman in his bed and allowed the writers to roam free and while bringing in even better ones (and gave Biller the boot)? Ah yes..... What if....

[@lordmontymord8701]

😣 this is why VOY is actually more depressing than bad: There were so many opportunities with this background idea, but they did nothing with it. That is worse than a show with a stupid concept from the beginning - you know there was never any chance of it being good, so why even care? But VOY ...

[@DeconvertedMan]

LOL.

[@planescaped]

I totally understand your ratings system. With how intimately familiar you are with Trek, you saying something is a 6/10 is a lot different than joe schmoe saying it. Good old "everyone's a critic" saying. Even those without the knowledge or critical eye to do so effectively. Hence why everything's a 7/10

[@saintsinningsword]

I like Neelix. When Neelix is jealous over Kes and controlling over her and her spending time with Paris is when he gets weird. Kes passes the Harkness test, yet she's still like what, 4 years old?

[@TheRezro]

Voyager suffer somewhat on Prequels syndrome. So most older fans think it is worst Trek ever made (and yes, still worst then Discovery, what is either seen as moderately bad or actually good), when many people raised on Voyager are in denial.

[@Krill_all_health_insuranceCEOs]

👏👏 that's it exactly

[@lordmontymord8701]

Hey, the Prequels are the worst! 🤣 Jokes aside i think the comparison with Star Wars is actually pretty spot on. The Prequels are despised by many and honestly i'm one of them, but the Disney Sequels are bad too - just for other reasons than the Prequels, which makes questions like "which trilogy is worse" hard to answer. I wouldn't say Voyager is the worst, personally i think for "Old Trek" that price goes to Enterprise. But even ENT and especially VOY have some episodes that i really like. There is nothing on STD, Picard or the other things that i like (haven't seen New Worlds and Prodigy yet, so no judgement on them). And when you ask me why it's bad it's the same as with SW: It's bad in a totally different way than most of VOY and ENT ...

[@danielsausaman9767]

11.12 ,is 7 of 9 mentally a vulcan like?

[@lordmontymord8701]

Well thanks to 20 years in the collective her emotions are really suppressed. I think all her scenes with Tuvok where he explains something to her about human or alien emotionally charged behaviour as someone who is also an outsider are always good. I like them way better than Janeway or the other humans trying to teach her a lesson (and let's not speak of Neelix)

[@chrisw207]

I'll admit, I dreaded this going in. I forgive a lot of Voyager you dump on, but even I'm not a fan of the forced Neelix Tuvok buddy comedy attempt, and like many other episodes good in idea, the reset button strikes again, so they go nowhere on a show consequences should have been paramount. Fairer than I expected.

[@sethmaki1333]

Somehow this episode fell through the cracks. I missed it during its first airing and I'd never seen it until recently. Damn shame too cuz I really like this one. Voyager may be my least favorite series of the franchise, but it's still better than any non-Trek available today.

[@lordmontymord8701]

I think Tim Russ gave a great performance and i like the part about them looking for the aliens, especially with someone who is considered a crazy nutjob by his own people helping them. At the same time the whole brain damage-plot just annoys me. Again, not because of the acting and even Neelix is less annoying than usual. But it is obvious from the start that Tuvok will be recovering in the end and even if he learns something from the experience it will be lost as soon as the credits start. I hate that the writers insisted on teaming up Tuvok and Neelix as the odd couple. It worked very well with Odo and Quark, but that was because both characters are well written. But if you really like one of them and the other one is just an annoying clown (no insult to clowns) this feels just wrong. If Neelix would have been more interesting and less stupid, let's say he's really the survival expert who finds solutions that are not exactly Starfleet-like, budding heads with Tuvok as his exact opposite, this might have worked. But the way they wrote it it's more like an even worse version of Dennis the menace constantly running around Mr. Wilson.

[@DblOSmith]

"This ship needs its tactical officer." Is exactly why I DO NOT think Janeway "murdered" Tuvix. She corrected an error/attack that was not freely chosen by the participant(s). It wasn't an organic personal change. She corrected an error.

[@Johnsavage1]

It's strange with Neelix because the writers clearly know that his annoying but i guess they think it's charming when it just isn't.The dates joke is not just painfully unfunny but he didn't say it right like he has never told a joke before in his life.

[@KairuHakubi]

it's so many layers of stupid (even BEFORE getting into the issue of two different aliens sharing a joke in English) and it's clearly only meant to be one layer: mildly corny

[@andywood6376]

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