A Look at The Jem'hadar (DS9)

[@CaptainJZH]

Something really cool about this episode is that its framed as just another TNG-style "away mission where crew discovers hostile alien race" story, and it slowly dawns on you throughout that this isn't that kind of story at all, and the Dominion isn't going anywhere anytime soon

[@marshallhuffer4713]

Regarding Eris' telekinesis, Ronald D. Moore stated, "Our internal rationale has been that Eris was given this ability for a specific purpose by the Founders (and maybe several other Vorta along with her) and that it is not a normal part of the Vorta 'recipe' in the Dominion." However, on an earlier occasion, Moore stated that other Vorta "presumably" had the ability, but no situations in which it would manifest had come up.

[@BrettCaton]

It's a shame that they didn't explain it clearly. Making it only apply to her line, and having a tradeoff in other stats would help establish how cold the founders are. They turn other species into organic machines, and don't care about the suffering that causes. For example, make using it shorten the lifespan dramatically. It means that line can't be diplomats. They have a great weapon but it is limited use.

[@deimosmasque885]

It's a youtube crime that Chuck's videos are not more popular.

[@Robizoid]

I agree.

[@BobSentell]

I remember watching this episode for the first time. The image of the Odyssey being destroyed absolutely caused my heart to sink. This was a great way to lay out the threat.

[@Kian2002]

For me my favourite part of this episode is Eris saying: "You've no idea what's begun here!" When she finally looks up at Odo in surprise before beaming away.

[@BrianS1981]

Very good summation of why the Federation isn't responsible for the Dominion war.

[@Nimmermaer]

Indeed. I just recently read a discussion about this episode and I was surprised how many Dominion apologists are out there.

[@jlp1013]

Still, they were asking for it.

[@BobSentell]

​@@NimmermaerHave you seen social media on any issue?

[@MrRingworld]

​@BobSentell exactly, just look at the Ukraine Russia War. There are a chunk of people saying Ukraine is the problem...

[@charly03090309]

I disagree... They gave the Federation one ultimatum. Stay out of our territory. The Federation refused. Encroaching on your territory with warships is an act of war.

[@myriadmediamusings]

The Odyssey sadly lacked the most powerful forces in the universe: Plot armor & main character shields. If the Enterprise-D were in this bout, I think at worst only part of the ship like the nacelles or the saucer woulda been lost, or at least all main and named characters woulda lived.

[@zephyr8072]

On the Ferengi, previous episodes on TNG showed that the Ferengi weren’t above corporate wage slavery, grand theft, piracy, literal slavery and child slavery. It’s especially ironic having Quark call out humans for engaging in slavery considering Armin Shimerman was in half of those episodes.

[@KianaWolf]

"It's not slavery if you're being paid, even if it's not a living wage!" -Late stage capitalism

[@deimosmasque885]

I've always viewed it as Quark downplaying some of it and also going "We never did it to our own people."

[@wratched]

@@deimosmasque885 Except women of course

[@zephyr8072]

@@wratched And their own Ferengi employees. And any Ferengi who owes another money. Hell, Quark kept his own brother as a wage slave until he fought for better treatment.

[@TF2CrunchyFrog]

@@deimosmasque885 Quark was just being a hypocrit. You'd think anything a sentient species did among themselves on their own planet before they achieved FTL-spaceflight is irrelevant to other alien species. After all, even the proto-Vulcans had bloody internecine tribal wars amongst themselves before Surak wrote his new philosophy. Heck, the Romulans have spaceflight but still keep murdering each other with poison and flesh-eating nanites or whatever. The Orions are slavers. The Klingons.... enough said. The Cardassians conquered and enslaved the Bajorans. Let's not even talk about Phlox species. I'm sure the Betazoids only avoid war because they can read everyone's minds (and do so frequently without consent from the non-telepath) and can just manipulate others via "diplomacy". Oh wait, there was a Betazoid serial killer on Voyager, wasn't there? The only one's so far who seem blameless (but also incredibly naive) are the Binars... the nice cousins of the Borg. And the Trill are basically the Star Trek version of the Tok'ra, only one Mirror Universe away from being the Goa'uld.

[@JeremyCoatney]

The joke about the feeding grounds of a great white pine is especially funny to me because last night I unleashed carnivorous pine trees on a DnD party😂

[@hilkmeister1382]

You evil bastard, now make the water hydrochloric acid

[@zephyr8072]

“This is an enemy that could’ve destroyed even the Enterprise.” And then the Enterprise was destroyed by a Klingon garbage scow. Sort of blunting that message.

[@Jokie155]

I recently watched Generations in full (mostly) for the first time. It's just shocking how milktose stupid and disrespectful the whole thing is. Even Search for Spock destroying the Enterprise respected the significance of that somewhat. I say mostly because I quit when the sun exploded, and pretended everyone died and I was free of the misery.

[@Redrally]

Generations! Come for the dumb plot, stay for the Christmas music (it's a guilty pleasure for me)@@Jokie155

[@marshallhuffer4713]

But then Star Trek: Picard revealed that Geordi would spend 20 years rebuilding and restoring the ship.

[@KiltedCritic]

@@Jokie155 On top of all this, they "forgot" to try and remodulate the shields. Also, how did Sorn's rocket probes reach the sun in like 5 seconds? It have to travel at high warp to pull that off, yet sunlight (warp 1) takes about 8 minutes to reach a planet within the habitable zone. Plot holes so many and so bad that film gives me a genuine headache.

[@KingOfMadCows]

The Dominion was destroying Alpha Quadrant ships without warning. If they really wanted people to stay out, they would have broadcast their intentions first before attacking. But their secret attacks against Alpha Quadrant ships shows that they were gathering intelligence on the Alpha Quadrant. They were intentionally letting Alpha Quadrant ships to go into the Gamma Quadrant so they could learn about the capabilities of the Alpha Quadrant powers. Only when the Dominion had learned what they wanted did they reveal themselves. Even then, they knew that the Alpha Quadrant races would still be obligated to go back into the Gamma Quadrant to recover the lost ships and find survivors.

[@zephyr8072]

I’ve seen people actually argue that it was on the Federation for not broadcasting a request to enter territory and then wait for permission. Because of course they should have the clairvoyance to know territorial boundaries before exploration or contact and space isn’t really big or anything.

[@Trekpanther]

@@zephyr8072 Right. As far as anyone on the alpha quadrant side knew the Dominion was some far-off entity that was amorphous. It didn't have visible border stations or ships, it didn't send a party immediately as ships came through the hole (if it was indeed a "violation of our territory" perhaps responding immediately instead of waiting for the supposed invaders to set colonies down on planets or have them reach out to minor races under your influence), or any visible markers the way other galactic powers did. Hell if anything the way the Dosi talked about them in Season 2 they might as well been the lost empire of Atlantis for all the alpha quadrant powers knew.

[@charly03090309]

Surely the Federation should either negotiate for their release. Instead they sent warships through and totally ignored their claims.

[@LocksAndChains]

@@charly03090309 Did you miss the part where the Dominion sent soldiers to DS9 to smugly threaten everyone and refuse negotiations? The Dominion never had any intention of peaceful negotiations.

[@KingOfMadCows]

​​@@charly03090309negotiate with who? The Federation had no idea where to find the Dominion. None of the Gamma Quadrant worlds they've encountered belonged to the Dominion. And even if they could find a Dominion ship, space station, or world, the Jem'Hadar were ambushing ships and destroying them, they wouldn't get the opportunity to negotiate. Should they just wait at the wormhole and hope that the Dominion will send someone they can negotiate with? Might as well wait and hope the Dominion will send the survivors back.

[@LandonErp]

I remember rewatching this episode and realizing this had to be the moment the writers knew they needed to drastically rethink both Jake and Nog. Nog was annoyingly helpless and Jake was a bit too much of a federation Marty Stu. I'm glad we got the end result though

[@gargamellenoir8460]

Everytime I hear the score I have to remind myself that they're so low just because DS9 is that freaking good.

[@bthsr7113]

Describing generosity as a bribe allocated to the employees.... okay, that's going in the, "Reasoning with Misers and Scumbags," tactic list.

[@lynngreen7978]

The Odyssey Tactical Officer made Worf look good. So many scenes where there is not a single phaser or photon shot for multiple seconds. Of course, a few weeks later, Worf, Riker, Geordi, and Data would lose a starship, via incompetence, and get rewarded for it - unlike Picard's ten year ground assignment after losing the Stargazer - despite NOT being found at fault.

[@MaxDoll]

Yay! Farscape reference! More please. Farscape seems to be the red-headed step child of TV sci-fi.

[@stryke-jn3kv]

Heh, if Farscape is the red-headed step child then what on earth would you call Lexx?

[@MaxDoll]

@@stryke-jn3kv The promiscuous sister kept locked in the attic that no one ever talks about because she fooled around with the geriatric mayor.

[@Nitero_]

I really love your content, its awesome and helps me out during the day. Thanks.

[@charly03090309]

Dominion "Stay out of our territory" Sisko "uhh, uhhh"

[@Jokie155]

I hate Jadzia's response particularly. "We killed a Bajoran colony for violating our territory." "That's not going to stop us from exploring, so nyeh."

[@MrMojo23100]

The thing I liked about DS9 and Captain Sisko was knowing how much Gene Roddenberry would have likely hated both. From what I have read (if anyone can confirm,) Gene was a pain the the writing room, set on his vision of The Federation being anti-war and bastions of 100% good.

[@nagger8216]

Yeah, his idea was that Starfleet somehow wasn't a military organization, which is.. laughable at best. DS9 showed what Star Trek could be without these child-like fantasies holding it back. It's also probably why it aged way better than TNG did as well

[@bthsr7113]

@@nagger8216 Considering that Starfleet was the shield against the Klingons and Romulans in the event of hostilities, they totally were the Federation's military when push came to shove. To say nothing of the firepower they could brandish when less developed places or stagnant civilizations got uppity. Like stunning an entire city block on gangster planet or atomizing solid rock on pilot/Pike planet for an armed rescue. The A/M bomb they left for the crew member who became a malicious god like being.

[@marshallhuffer4713]

Gene was a pain for the writers. He was adamant that there was to be no conflict between the main characters, which was why TNG suffered in its first season as it was different to write drama without conflict and over 30 writers either quit or were fired.

[@ghostinthemachine8243]

A word in defense of the Late, Great Gene Roddenberry. Star Trek was his creative idea. He fleshed it out, fought thru the casting and production headaches, dealt with the TV networks, finally sold the show after shooting two pilots, and then fought for three seasons to keep the show on the air. (Well... maybe only the first two seasons. He kinda checked out during the last one) He then saw his show get resurrected into a movie franchise and the new TNG series. Having suffered thru all of those obstacles to reach the promised land, it's no wonder that he'd have a proprietary view on how Star Trek stories were written and portrayed on screen. Conclusion: My opinion is that DS9 isn't really Star Trek. Sure, it uses the ST canon, but the stories are atypical for Roddenberry established characters and scripts. Looking at DS9 critically, its a pretty good show. But it's hard not to suspect that the story idea for the series was basically an imitation of what I think is a better show. J Michael Straczynski's Babylon 5.

[@lynngreen7978]

I agree on the Federation/Dominion assessment in this episode. Where I disagree, is the response in the next season. How I would have expected the Federation to respond: Andorians - militarize the Bajor System, build the mine field O'Brien would propose later (with a rapid deployment option), ensuring that if the Dominion comes, they will die, before they came threaten the Alpha Quadrant Vulcans - send a PEACEFUL diplomatic envoy to talk. As a compromise to Terrans, Tellarites, (and Centaurans, because i still acknowledge the fifth founding species) this would be a Frigate or Light Cruiser (something like a Miranda sans rollbar), instead of a Oberth - with a Starfleet presence.

[@sebastianranch6934]

6:03 - There is. Rule of Acquisition #33: It never hurts to suck up to the boss.

[@ReaverLordTonus]

Credit where it's due that the captain of the Odyssey had the good sense to evacuate nonessential personnel from the ship before going into battle with the dominion. Unlike Admiral Hanson who didn't evacuate any non essential personnel from his fleet when they engaged the freaking Borg at Wolf 359, had he done that, Jennifer Sisko would not be dead.

[@All2Meme]

Regarding that, I wonder how many people who died at Wolf 359 were resuscitated using Borg nanoprobes (like Neelix was in Voyager's "Mortal Coil") and assimilated. That would be Benjamin Sisko's nightmare; Jennifer alive but as a Borg drone.

[@julius-stark]

I really wish instead of Star Trek Discovery that we'd gotten a show that takes place decades after the war and set primarily in the Gamma Quadrant where the wormhole vanishes and our hero ship is stuck there having to defend their colonies while maintaining relations with the remnants of the Dominion.

[@invictus2578]

They think they’re superior and they think they’re going to be able to expand throughout the galaxy. Well, if that happened, they would’ve hit a roadblock in the Delta quadrant, and the Borg would’ve shown him how in interior they truly are.

[@invictus2578]

You should do a video on the borg/borg queen

[@Amarok41]

Extra upvote for Farscape reference

[@zosowon]

ketracel white is a helluva drug

[@PickleRick65]

Hilarious (and informative)👍👍👌👌💪💪

[@fredrikcarlstedt393]

Yes, young Master Jake must really up his Wesley Crusher game !

[@NeilBlumengarten]

"Why he's there... the reasons are nil! Because For Some Reason, Jake Sisko!" -The Greatest Generation podcast

[@scythemouse]

8:58 Yep, shame they had to throw all that away within the next hour.

[@romarudarkeyes]

There is a pretty simple answer from the Dominion side of the argument that they seemingly never considered... If trespassers came through the 'anomaly' - blow up the wormhole from the Gamma Quadrant side and that solves your issue. It's like complaining that you keep getting random cats in the house, but you own a catflap.

[@comentedonakeyboard]

Asuming of course that the field is realy lethal rather then Eris just claiming it is

[@supportpatriarchyordietrying]

This whole situation reminds me a lot of the current situation on earth (with Putin doing the "my side, your side!" thing and just a matter of time until WW3 starts)

[@Robizoid]

Nog was definitely NOT made for camping ... then again, neither is any Ferangi for that matter!

[@ztyran]

11:25 Lore Reloaded made an interesting rebuttal to the original version of this video a while ago

[@Trekpanther]

I still found his argument insufficient for the same reasons Chuck stated. Even if the Federation locked that sector of space down where any moves through the wormhole could not occur without their approval, that in no way binds the other Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers to that standard and they have material reasons to go through the wormhole whether it be commercial concerns, defense intelligence (i.e. there is a major power in the galaxy that we need more information on so we're not taken by surprise like with the Borg), or just pure colonial conquest. Also the fact that several powers have cloaking devices means that they can waltz through the entrance without Federation approval...and quite frankly the Federation as of DS9 Season 3 (I could see a Federation in the middle of the Klingon Cold War doing it but not at this time) is not in the state of mind where it's gonna fortify & garrison it like it was the Berlin Wall so Klingons, Romulans, and anyone else with their mind to it will get through to the Gamma Quadrant. In that scenario it was not a question of if they do, but when they do. If the Dominion was as isolationist as its propaganda stated it was and not planning for direct war, it will once the aggressive Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers reached their claimed regions of space with or without Federation consent. All of that is stuff that is not related to Federation internal politics or failure of democracy or whatever other dog-whistling ethnic centrism he espoused in that video.

[@ztyran]

@@Trekpanther I said "interesting", I didn't say "convincing". 😎

[@arlibrarian]

Yeah I don’t know man, I just don’t buy Quark’s contention that the Ferengi never did things on the level of concentration camps or chattel slavery at a level comparable to human history. Even putting aside examples from other episodes.

[@darktenor4967]

Loved your discussion of the founders uplifting the Vorta and the Jem'hadar. I know you only occasionally do book reviews, but have you considered reviewing the books of David Brin's uplift Saga? My wife and I love this series, we even read the uplift war on our honeymoon, and it'd be great to see an in depth discussion and analysis of Brin's ideas, in the same way as you've discussed other books and films.

[@BronzeBoy520]

While I really like Quark and him dressing down the humans for how they treat Ferengi is good… The speech of how the Ferengi weren’t as bad as humans is flawed on the basis of how they treat their women, and the Ferengi probably would wage war against those VASTLY weaker than them for profit, and probably sell weapons more than wage war themselves, and bigotry… I mean Ferengi seem monoracial and cultural and hell I bet they wiped out all non Ferengi who love profit centuries ago.

[@zephyr8072]

I wonder if a later episode where Nog goes on about how comparatively lazy and unambitious the Ferengi are, comparing how humans developed their own warp drive while the Ferengi bought theirs from the Breen was written in response to this.

[@captianmorgan7627]

My side!

[@ThePiachu]

The idea of Jem'hadar (the aliens) has been interesting, too bad it was kind of squandered by the writers not committing to how dangerous they were hyped up to be. If Worf can stand up to them in a prison no problem, or heck, a few Ferengi can Home Alone their way around one, the tension of ultimate warriors bred for war is kind of deflated.

[@dialecticcoma]

north korea can't catch a break

[@DeconvertedMan]

maybe she didnt really have any mind powers - it could have been tech.

[@noblehelium3794]

I think it was pretty clearly tech but it's still unexplained why they never use the same tech again. Still, it's clearly just Early Installment Weirdness and it's not a big deal to overlook it.

[@DeconvertedMan]

@@noblehelium3794 either tech or an experment they didnt want to repeat - I could not find anything on the wiki's about it either cannon or not to explain it.

[@starwarsnerd100]

I always assumed it was some sort of mutation they were unable to replicate in the cloning process.

[@DeconvertedMan]

@@starwarsnerd100 maybe so. Its not mentioned at all - wild!

[@BobSentell]

I personally think she was a special operative Vorta. One that was given special powers just for this type of assignment. Founders have shown they aren't above a little genetic manipulation to achieve their goals.

[@dragonskunkstudio7582]

Wait a minute! What Enterprise ship was that? It couldn't be the the Enterprise D as Geordi restored Enterprise D and it didn't look like he would be able to buff that one out.

[@starwarsnerd100]

We’re you not paying attention? It’s in the video it’s not the Enterprise it’s the Odyssey, same ship class so they can re use effect shots.

[@HilaryPea]

-You should learn how to count with your fingers before you learn how to use a calculatoe, Sisco! So, yeah, his science project is low tech. Feel lucky that it isn't 100% low-tech, as in they would have to raise their plants in real world environments, like in a garden on the Bajor's surface, instead of a on a space station! This is an irony, usually it's the children bitching about wanting to use a calculator and the parants telling them how important it is to learn to count the old fashioned way. "Dad! Can't I just use a replicator or super plant food?" No, Jake. quit bitching or I'll make you sit in the hot sun on Bajor to grow those the proper way." -I finished your quote: "... naturally, you'll make the field lethal and don't tell them about it because ... reasons." -That doesn't seem unusual to me. Everybody wants to pick Quark up and throw him on the floor for the sole reason of seeing him go splat. That is part of his innate charm!

[@All2Meme]

On the subject of Ferengi, would boxing a Ferengi's ears be the same as kicking a human in the groin?

[@navibc31]

To be fair, Rom didn't really appear as Liberal until season 3

[@SciFlyGal]

Especially in the first season Rom was a rather sinister character

[@TheWWDproductions]

Ok do we actually know if the force field is lethal or not? We know how much the Dominion like to screw with people psychologically.

[@noblehelium3794]

I thought it was a bit weird that Chuck spent so much time ragging on the stated lethal force field when we know by the end of the episode that anything the Vorta said was unreliable.

[@starwarsnerd100]

@@noblehelium3794 IMO it’s worth ragging on because it that was the writer’s’ intention they almost certainly would have had Sisko or Quark remark on the silliness of the shield. Since they didn’t it’s clear the writers didn’t consider how impractical such a device would be.