A minor change Sierra made to Hero's Quest in a later version of the game

Just a short video showing off a change which Sierra made to the original Hero's Quest in a later version of the game to make sequence breaking more difficult. The speedrun which I mention in this video can be seen here (the guy literally finishes the game in one-third of the time it took me to talk about this change):
• Quest for Glory 1 (EGA...

[@CakeLancelot]

I first found this channel through your Heroes Quest series, so this is super interesting. Thanks for the vid!

[@msintal1308]

Me too!

[@LateBlt]

Thanks, I'm glad it was entertaining after all. :)

[@alexandregiroux2234]

I also distinctively remember the "open the door" thing in the original KQ. Years later I replayed it using a Sierra Collection CD-ROM and found out the "the" was no longer required. Your mention of it brought back some fond, distant memories. :)

[@LateBlt]

So you had the same problem where the "the" was required? That's interesting... I wonder when Sierra changed it!

[@retrogamerdad9621]

A LateBlt video about Hero's Quest? Yes please! This series will always hold a unique and elevated place in my heart.

[@Intrafacial86]

Fascinating! We had the original Quest for Glory when I was a kid. It was good to hear your commentary again. Hope you are faring well in these troublesome times.

[@LateBlt]

Thanks, I am doing okay so far. I hope that you are, too. :)

[@DavidKraftIshihama]

There were a lot of changes between v1.0 and v1.2 of Hero's Quest (I don't have v1.1). I ended up writing down most of these in the speedrunning discord while working on some of the 500 point speedruns: * V1.0 contains the "Hi-Speed Hero" option, allowing the character to move faster at the expense of movement accuracy. * In v1.0 the fetch spell will always successfully get the key from the Kobold. In v1.2 your fetch skill must be 35+ to succeed. * In v1.0 a single dazzle spell is enough to prevent the kobold from using reversal. In v1.2 you must continually cast dazzle to prevent it. * Additionally, in v1.2 you can cast another dazzle at any time to extend the blindness. In v1.0 you have to wait for it to wear off before you can cast it again. * In v1.0 there is a delay in regaining character control after freeing the bear. In v1.2 it's nearly instant. * In v1.0 there is no note in the bar until you free the bear. In v1.2 there's one from the very beginning. * The game won't recognize "mana potion" as a noun if you try to buy one from the healer in v1.0. Drinking "mana potion" works normally. * In v1.2 if you ask the meeps about green fur first, it seems they always throw out the detect magic scroll too. In v1.0 it appears to be random whether or not they throw out the scroll. * In v1.0 you can use the "hiden goseke" password without hearing it first. * In v1.0 the fighter and the thief can get up to 17 points for playing and winning mage's maze. * In v1.2 the fighter seems to gain experience more quickly than in v1.0. * In v1.2 the kobold fight is much easier for the fighter. The fighter has to continually re-type "fight" to re-engage the kobold but doesn't stagger when hit by spells. In v1.0 the fighter automatically follows the kobold but is hit harder by its spells. * In v1.0 there is a risk that the hero running will lock up the game when he throws rocks at the nest. * In v1.0 when the thief picks the chest in the kobold cave, he automatically loots it for the coins. in 1.2 you have to type "get coins" after. * The Brutus fight at the archery range appears to be much easier in 1.0 (he seems to have less HP). * Bruno leaves the screen below the archery range faster in 1.2. About 10 seconds versus the 40 in 1.0.

[@LateBlt]

Hey, it's the man himself! Thanks so much for all the amazing videos you've made, and for showing up here and sharing this information. :)

[@retrogamerdad9621]

Fascinating stuff. Not least of all that people speedrun this game. I guess people will speedrun anything, won't they?

[@LobsterminatorX]

Interesting video! This kind of silly little detail is what I love you for.

[@LateBlt]

I like little details like this too. Thanks! :D

[@msintal1308]

Wow your grandma was pretty cool

[@LateBlt]

Yeah, she used a computer for the first time when she was something like 60 but still learned to use word processing proficiently and became seriously addicted to the _King's Quest_ games. I guess it runs in my family.

[@Kerenceious]

That's an interesting thing to patch. I wonder what the point of that was? I assumed the message was going to be something along the lines of "You have no reason to do that". The version I played when I was a kid was the 1.0 version, I still have the disks for it (not sure if they still work though) and it says so on the label, it even lists the SCI version. I also have the 1.2 version from the Collection CD. They never fixed the game crashing while left clicking on the Green Meep, I remember checking that when I got the "CD"-version. "Look green meep" produces the correct message though. I put so much time into this game but I don't really remember any differences between the versions anymore, I see other comments have listed a whole bunch though, from both this and other games. I do remember noticing some of these back in the day after reading them. I too miss actually seeing what the software was doing, you could actually learn how things worked back then just using it, now MS just hides more and more from the user with every OS release.

[@vitrums]

"Open the door" story made me laugh and cry

[@pukestar]

The DOS prompt makes me so happy.

[@LateBlt]

Absolutely. The DOS prompt is a boundless fountain of joy, glowing with the life of a blinking insertion point and pixels that dance to our touch of the keys.

[@pukestar]

@@LateBlt I absolutely agree that Win95 ruined so much!

[@oppie47]

If I’m not mistaken, I believe the Undead Unguent has different behavior when getting the mandrake root in the cemetery at night between these two different versions. I remember watching someone playing through version 1.000 here on KZbin and it somehow had slightly different effects than what I was used to in the later version. Maybe the unguent only worked successfully if you applied it while standing in the cemetery screen? As in its effects wore off immediately as soon as you changed screens, unlike the later version where you could apply it first THEN walk into the cemetery? I don’t remember exactly what the difference was, so don’t quote me on it, but I’m pretty sure the unguent mechanics somehow work differently. As far as different versions go, I believe the Sierra game with the most radical changes between versions was King’s Quest IV, albeit the difference is mostly cosmetic. I don’t even mean the AGI vs. SCI versions where the differences are obvious, but even within the SCI versions there were huge changes. SCI versions 1.000.106 through 1.000.111 (released Sept 1988) were known as the “nine disk” versions of the game because they shipped on nine 5.25” floppy disks. SCI versions 1.003.006 through 1.006.004 (released Dec 1988 - Aug 1989) were known as the “eight disk” versions because they came on eight 5.25” disks. The quickest most obvious way to tell the difference is by the interface buttons. The 9-disk versions had green save/restore buttons and the 8-disk versions had black & white buttons. The 8-disk versions of the game had simplified background graphics to take up less disk space. Easily noticeable background differences are the presence/absence of bushes on the bottom center of Cupid Pool screen and the detail of the stonework and shingles on the Abandoned Manor screen. The biggest difference is in how the night screens are handled. The original 9-disk versions had completely separate day/night background pictures, whereas the 8-disk versions used starry sky overlays on top of the daytime background pictures. If you look closely at the 8-disk version background pictures you’ll notice that in the daytime the back horizon line is always darker so that it blends in better with the edges of the nighttime sky overlays. In contrast, you’ll notice that in the 9-disk versions the grass is usually bright green right up to the back horizon line. I’ve long thought that the 9-disk version background pics have an “11 am” appearance because they’re so bright, whereas the 8-disk version background pics have a “5 pm” appearance because they’re much darker. Other notable differences are the heights of the sprites inside the Witch and Troll caves. Rosella’s sprite is taller in both locations in the 9-disk versions and walks faster, actually making it possible to outrun the Troll. The 3 witches also have taller sprites in the 9-disk versions and some of the bottles on the shelves are also larger. Later in the castle, it even plays different music when you shoot Lolotte depending on whether you’re in the 9- or 8-disk versions. Both 9- and 8-disk tunes are played in the AGI version though. The waterfall glitch you mentioned was specific to version 1.003.006 released Dec 1988. All versions before and after were free of the bug. Version 1.003.006 also still displays the promotional code at the end of the game to “win a free trip to see the castles of England” which was removed from later versions. Version 1.003.006 also was the last version that automatically terminated the introduction sequence by itself. The later versions forced you to press [enter] to start the game, presumably in case the player walked away from the computer during the introduction. This way the background timer wouldn’t start until the player was definitely at the computer. (That’s the best guess I could come up with.) Version 1.003.006 also still had the weird walk issue where Rosella lurches a bit when she initially starts walking. Her sudden lurch forward might only be obvious if you repeatedly click the mouse very fast. This issue was fixed in later versions. Thought you might find that interesting.

[@LateBlt]

Wow! This is probably easily one of the most detailed and informed comments I've ever gotten in the more-than-ten-year history of my KZbin channel. That is very interesting indeed. Thank you very much for the information!! :D

[@oppie47]

@LateBlt If you’d like, I can put the different versions of KQ4 into a ZIP file and upload it to my Google drive. I’m missing version 1.006.003 (released Jun 1989) but my understanding is that it’s identical to version 1.006.004 (Aug 1989) except that Rosella walks faster diagonally in the later version.

[@LateBlt]

I appreciate the offer, thanks, but I don't suppose that I actually need the different versions of the game... It might be interesting for completionism's sake but I probably won't be making a video documenting those differences soon. :)

[@DavidKraftIshihama]

I found another difference between v1.0 and v1.2. In v1.0 you can walk around the Kobold cave without waking it up. You only need stealth to get the key.

[@thefonzkiss]

First game still the best. EGA version.

[@LateBlt]

Strongly agree.

[@stubblyhead]

There was a bug in some version of Quest for Glory 2 where you couldn't defeat the fire elemental towards the beginning of the game. If I remember right you'd sprinkle the incense on it, and the game would sort of hang. The elemental's flickering animation would continue, and game time would even continue to pass, but you couldn't lead it up the street in order to capture it. I think they sent us replacement disks.

[@LateBlt]

Now that you mention it, I think I recall this happening to me once. I started laying down the incense and I walked all the way into the street at the top of the screen, but the screen never transitioned; it just stayed stuck on the plaza. But I restored the game and tried again, and it worked the second time. So maybe I had this problem but it only surfaced occasionally.

[@rushDSC]

"...when windows 95 came along and ruined the planet." I have followed your channel since the early days of HQ/QFG days and never ceased to enjoy the entertainment, nostalgia and niche value LateBlt. Keep up the great work!

[@LateBlt]

Thank you, I'm glad that it has been consistently worth watching. :)

[@LateBlt]

I suppose there are some people in the world who still had something to live for after the release of Windows 95, but I wasn't one of them. Everything was lost when DOS went away.

[@LateBlt]

There has already been more than enough said and written on the matter, both on the Internet and in other media. With the loss of DOS, we lost the ability to communicate directly with the hardware, to understand exactly what software was doing. That had already been a problem before, but Windows 95 turned it into a global pandemic. Nobody cared about understanding what their computers were doing anymore; they just wanted their "computers" to be big dumb appliances for clicking buttons on.

[@majorobvious1]

Here's a list of changes between versions of QFG1: tcrf.net/Quest_for_Glory:_So_You_Want_to_Be_a_Hero_(1989) . No idea if it's complete or not.

[@LateBlt]

Wow, that is AWESOME! Thank you so much for this site, it's great! And yet oddly enough, it doesn't mention the thing which I highlighted in this video, so I guess it's not entirely complete. =)

[@paulchapman8023]

I remember the FACS booklet in QFG1 describing trolls as rather stupid, so the idea of a troll’s password being badly spelled makes sense to me. And it’s not like the parser could recognize every possible misspelling of “hide and go seek.” It could be a phonetic thing too, like how the goons in QFG4 pronounce the name Ad Avis as “Adda Bees.” Incidentally, and this might be another example of the Mandela Effect, I remember making the troll disappear by actually typing “hide and go seek” correctly in the anthology’s version of QFG1 EGA.

[@LateBlt]

If a troll were asked to write the phrase down, that would make sense, but considering that our character is saying the phrase aloud here, I don't think the troll can distinguish between homophones or homonyms. I suppose you are right and that it is related to the "Adda Bees" thing, which is technically called an "eye dialect", the use of incorrect spelling to communicate a particular character's (or characters') pronunciation.

[@paulchapman8023]

--Maybe Fred did write the phrase down for Bruno. --But I think a more likely explanation is that the unusual spelling is supposed to stand in for an unusual pronunciation. --Come to think of it, how would Bruno have learned the phrase in the first place? I think it must have involved some sort of conversation with Fred.

[@retrogamerdad9621]

My money's on it's a Corey Cole-ism. Finding a semi-Germanic spelling so as to make it something of a pun.

[@paulchapman8023]

@@retrogamerdad9621 A semi-Germanic pun, and they didn't use "Haydn"?

[@donwald3436]

9:45 nah you might say "hidden goo seekey" if you never heard the password.

[@captainfrown]

space quest 4, in the original disk version of the game you can solve the 3 rotating lasers puzzle without the cigar and matches if you know the right numbers to enter in the panel, similar to saying "hiden goseke" before hearing it from bruno. in the cd version you cannot, although i don't know what exactly was changed. i suspect there are no rotation settings that work until you've filled the chamber with smoke but i could test that i guess. maybe it's randomized? i just know it doesn't work.

[@LateBlt]

Interesting. I had the non-CD version, but I don't think I ever tried it without the cigar and matches. It would make sense that the game wouldn't allow you to "solve" the puzzle without the right items, although I understand that if the codes are the same every time, then "in real life" it would have worked without them.

[@joshleyes2169]

I know it's a bit later in the series, but my introduction to the Quest for Glory series was the fifth game when I plucked it from a Staples software bargain bin in the late 90's. The first time playing as a Thief, I didn't yet have the patch to make Rakeesh give me the grapnel, which is used in a couple later quests. This was also in a time where I went to Sierra forums when I was stumped on a quest and I believe I only ever got the idea I needed the patch from advice found there. Looking at the updates, there was apparently a version 1.1 and 1.2 as I seem to remember other bugs that weren't necessarily game breaking, but kept you from max points.

[@LateBlt]

I actually never played QfG5 (at least, not for very long), so I don't have a lot of personal experiences with it, but it seems that Sierra had more trouble with game-breaking bugs in their later releases (around the mid-1990s), which I suppose makes sense since that was when the games were becoming more technically complex and harder to troubleshoot, as compared to earlier releases which were relatively straightforward from a technical perspective.

[@marki1893]

new vid! Let's goooooooo

[@rjnash2610]

Umm... no.

[@OhManTFE]

I think it's perfectly valid to patch something like this, because it's not intended to finish the game that fast, but they way they went about it was unsatisfactory by breaking the game's logic, as you said. An easy fix that would have not broken the game's logic is instead through up an error message when you type in that phrase before you are supposed to know the phrase. Something like "You decide speaking random words near this rock is not such a good idea after all." Or some such. A harder fix would be perhaps spawning different enemies at that door, really high levelled ones that you can't beat. Like, what if a group of bandits just so happened to be exiting that cave at the same time you tried to enter it at that precise moment. Game's logic wouldn't be broken this way either.

[@LateBlt]

This is part of a much larger topic which I briefly mentioned in this video, namely how games handle player knowledge. There are many games where winning the game hinges upon the player knowing some particular information. If you've played the game before, you already know what you need to know and could potentially finish the game in minutes or even seconds, so the question is: Should the game allow you to do something which "you're not supposed to know yet", or should it just let you go ahead and do something game-breaking since it is, after all, your game experience and you should be able to play it how you want? I can understand why they changed it for this game but I don't think it was necessary; if you already know the code word, what's the harm in letting players use it ahead of time? But that's just my philosophy on game design and behavior, and other people have differing ideas on the matter.

[@OhManTFE]

@@LateBlt It sounds like it would make a great future video, with your vast knowledge of games of this genre. You could throw up on the screen a variety of examples from different games and compare and contrast.

[@LateBlt]

I don't have that many examples that I can think of, but really, it's a design question. I've always been of the opinion that the player in the game should basically be able to do what they want (this is also a point I've repeated several times during my current _Rex Nebular_ Let's Play), and so I don't like it when the game refuses to let you do something by saying something like "You don't see any reason to do that". The thing is, nearly every game in the world has to impose some kind of restrictions on what the player can do, because a game can't be programmed to understand, simulate, and present every possible action which a human being could think of.

[@skyliner114]

thanks for this. love the quest for glory series and all its little quirks. i know you play mostly for nostalgia, but would you ever consider playing heroine's quest?

[@LateBlt]

I've played it, and I enjoy it quite a lot, but I think that my play style would bother viewers. I've considered LPing it many times but I have the feeling that I would complain about how it's different from the QfG games to the point where people would get annoyed at how much I complain about it. (This is what happened with the VGA remake of QfG2.)

[@DBoy2029]

The more you know.

[@feslenraster]

Hah "windows 95 ruined the planet"...indeed, my friend, indeed. you must LOVE Windows 10; I think the updated version you need to actually get the password in order to get the guy to move. I never had the game version where you can open it before overhearing the password, cool deal though; thanks for showing ltblt

[@LateBlt]

As much as I loathe Windows 10, I still use it because I can't think of a better alternative currently on the market.

[@oldmanjoeb]

Thanks for this. I love these games! Any chance you'd do QFG III? I know when you did QFG II you said you wouldn't do it because you didn't the point-and-click format but that was like 10 years ago at it seems that your stance has softened on this front (a la Rex Nebular et al )...? I know there are other LPs out there in the wild but they are not as thorough as yours tend to be :-)

[@LateBlt]

The problem with _QfG3_ is that I never played it as a kid and so I don't have good memories of it; I'd probably complain about it too much and that would turn off people who like the game. It happens a lot when I play games which people like but I don't. =)

[@oldmanjoeb]

@@LateBlt Well if you a fan of the QFG games (and I know you are) I guarantee you'll like QFG III. But in the end it's your call... :-)

[@Finsternis..]

Not a Sierra adventure, but: In Mortville Manor, a detective adventure - mainly interesting due to its incorporation of speech synthesis, it was possible if you knew the solution to get a few key items and solve the final puzzle in 5 minutes or so. In later versions, after a magazine published a walkthrough how to do that, when you tried to solve the final puzzle the game starts asking questions about the plot at a specific point before you can continue. /edit: at least I believe it was the final puzzle, might have been the second to last one. Ach, details.

[@LateBlt]

Oh, I remember _Mortville Manor_ ! That was such a nice-looking game, but I never got very far in it because the version I had was entirely in French.

[@Finsternis..]

@@LateBlt As far as I know the PC version was only released in French and German. There is an English translation for the Atari ST and Amiga Version. Apparently this was also incorporated into ScummVM for the PC Version, but their engine does not support voices "because they are terrible". Interesting note here is also, according to ScummVM wiki, the fanpage Lankhor net has aquired permission to distribute the games (not only Mortville) in all versions for free as download.

[@LateBlt]

I could do German but I don't speak or understand French very well. Thanks for the information, perhaps I should get back to that game and try to do an LP of it sometime. Probably not though, as I don't think most of my viewers would be very interested in it, so I'll just play it for myself. =)

[@Finsternis..]

@@LateBlt I got curious again, and apparently there is still no actual playthrough of the game on youtube. Well, in English or German at least, there might be a French one, but I can't understand a word. (there is a blind German one that stopped half-way through :V ) So, you had at least one person interested in a playthrough :P But I can see that not many people might be interested in this rather niché game. (and much less the successor, Maupiti Island. There was a third game in Japan iirc planned, that got canceled. But boy, that Jerome got around.) However, more importantly, what I also found now is that they included native Text-To-Speech to ScummVM by now. I.e. one can play the DOS Version via ScummVM in English with the Text-To-Speech device integrated into windows. Which admittedly sounds much better than the original. I tried it just now, and at least the intro of the DOS "Version 4" of lankhor net works fine in English with a ScummVM setup even with German Windows TTS. What I don't know is if there is any copy protection. The readme of the Dos-Pack speaks about "cracked" versions, but I don't know enough French if that is meant as "being broken" or "copy protection removed". I'm not aware of a copy protection, but it's been at least 10 years since I last played the game properly.

[@LateBlt]

I might just end up doing it in German, then... I think my English-language audiences are fairly picky about what they see on the channel. :) Thanks for the information, I'll keep it in mind and think about it for the future.

[@maltyebisu1420]

In Space Quest I, there is an easter egg featuring Ken Williams that got removed. If you want to see it, please check out kzbin.info/www/bejne/bJ_VXmWPq7p7b6M . He starts talking about it after about 6 minutes.

[@TomSFox]

4:08 - Still getting used to a German keyboard, eh?

[@LateBlt]

Yes and no. The problem is that some DOS programs don't correctly recognize the current keyboard layout and so I tend to mix up the Y and Z in DOSBox. It's usually not a problem for me in Windows or Linux.

[@OhManTFE]

Do you have any interest in playing Lori and Corey Cole's latest release, Hero-U?

[@LateBlt]

I have it and I've played it. It is not a bad game, but I know that I couldn't get through a Let's Play of it without complaining about all the things in it that annoy me, to the extent that my viewers would probably be turned off by watching it.

[@OhManTFE]

​@@LateBlt I kickstarted it and never got around to playing it... the art style was a major turnoff for me. So you've done better than me. XD

[@retrogamerdad9621]

Which was the version that changed the name? I'm pretty sure I grew up on 1.0

[@LateBlt]

There were multiple versions with the name "Hero's Quest". The change to "Quest for Glory" came later.

[@elsa1569]

Awww, this game ❤️! The only disappointment was that the brigand leader was a strong woman BECAUSE she was under a spell! And why is it a happy ending when she becomes a conforming princess again?

[@paulchapman8023]

It is a shame that we don’t get to see how good a fighter she is after being dispelled until QFG5, but I’m glad that QFG5 shows us that she either hadn’t lost her touch or had gotten it back.

[@LateBlt]

Paul already replied below, but just to put in my own response: Elsa von Spielburg was a strong woman, both physically and emotionally, before and after her enchantment. She wasn't a strong woman because of the enchantment, but rather, it was her inner strength which enabled her to be strong _during_ her enchantment. Unfortunately we don't get much opportunity to see her in her un-enchanted form in this game, but she did not become a conforming, dainty princess after the enchantment was broken; she remained a warrior princess who could still fight with the best of them.

[@elsa1569]

@@paulchapman8023 thank you for the clarification 🙏. I shall have a look at QFG5 then 😊

[@elsa1569]

@@LateBlt a QFG5 LP please? 🙏

[@LateBlt]

I never actually played QfG5. Somehow it is a bit too "new" for me; it doesn't really capture the sprightly joy of computer gaming for me the way 16-color EGA graphics do. So if I played it, first of all, I'd have no idea what I was doing, and secondly, I'd probably complain about it a lot, which isn't much fun to watch.

[@oysteivi]

So.. Is there a patched version of II out there where you have to fetch the beard before giving it to Keapon?

[@LateBlt]

I'm not aware of one; Sierra may have either missed that one or just decided to leave it in as a loophole for people who want to make the game easier. =)