A Modern Horizons 3 Compliment Sandwich

[@lucascunha4465]

Also worth pointing out, it’s ironic they say the set is for everyone when it will be literally the last magic set ever printed in portuguese, talk about tone deaf

[@ProfDragonite]

But why?

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh man! Yeah, I didn't even think about that! If it had occured to me I'd totally have included it

[@MechaNoodle]

@RedBobcatGames you should pin the comment because it is also an interesting topic too.

[@ValentineGodek]

@@ProfDragoniteMoney (According to WotC, there are a “significant number” (their words) of consumers in Portuguese-speaking countries that buy English products, and apparently that’s a reason to stop printing in Portuguese. Note that many Portuguese-speaking consumers say that is because WotC has been phasing out Portuguese printings and therefore it’s much easier for the consumer to find the English version.)

[@RedBobcatGames]

Ohh, but I just pinned a comment talking about how cool I am!... But fine! The Portuguese are more important than my ego! I guess!

[@roger18975smith]

And remember, they’re called Meddling Youths because there’s already a card called Meddling Kids from the Unhinged silver-bordered set.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I actually hadn't even connected those dots. They literally couldn't do the joke they wanted, because they'd already done it as an actual joke. Mad

[@JervisGermane]

@@RedBobcatGames I pointed that out in one of my long, rambling comments a few video back. This was their second time going to that well. They just... do that. How many times does Phyrexia have to invade Dominaria?

[@doylerudolph7965]

TBF Meddling Kids is absolutely not a Scooby Doo reference, it’s just a weird card about kids cursing? Or not being allowed to curse? “Haha we said ‘four letter word’ *wink* *nudge*” humor of the juvenile style that was very prevalent in Unhinged.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I mean. Okay. On the face, what you say is reasonable and I believe you. But on the otherhand, if you're telling me ANY HUMAN BEING ALIVE under the age of 90 heard the phrase "Meddling Kids" and didn't immediately jump to Scooby Doo in their head I would not believe you.

[@JonNuclear]

That lines about "does not line up with the price point players are willing to pay" is one of, if not the single most disrespectful thing that Wizards has ever allowed to be published. They are the ones printing the cards, regardless of the aftermarket price of a card they pay the same to print it, they decide how much of it to print and what price to sell it to retailers at(even if they want to claim their isn't an msrp). They have full control over the aftermarket pricing if they want to change them and also still try and claim that they don't use after market pricing when designing sets. This spits in the fact of all of that and of the players. They could 100% with absolutely zero problems print decent starter modern decks and have them on shelves for $20-$40, the only reason not to is to keep prices high to drive sales on reprints in the future. Its actually disgusting to me that he would word it in this way. Not to mention that one of these commander precons is starting at about €120.

[@TopMostFlavor]

You must realize that if cards people buy do not hold their value, say they start printing fetchlands in every commander deck, then people will stop buying as many magic cards. A huge part of the game whether you like it or not is that it is fun to open a $5 booster and get a $30 card. The gambling aspect of magic and all TCGs has been there since day 1.

[@RedBobcatGames]

You sound angrier than me, and that's really impressive because I'm quite angry about it myself!

[@jeancarlo37]

@@TopMostFlavor but that's a easy fix, insted of making the mechanique expensive ie fetchlands, you make that version expensive ie this alt art super special fetchland, that's what pokemon and yugioh have done for years at this point, yugioh not so much at the moment those guys are going throught some rought times atm, but historically speaking

[@KuroKitten]

@@TopMostFlavor I can guarantee you that if they started printing fetchlands in every commander deck, I'd buy a lot more of the commander decks. I'd also buy a lot more fetchlands, because now I'd be able to afford them. I don't want to own fetchlands *because* they're expensive, I want to own them because they're cards that serve a gameplay function that I need. It doesn't matter how many of them you print, that type of demand isn't going anywhere. There's a reason proxying is becoming popular, and it's not because people are happy not owning their cards - it's because for most of us, at some point, you either can't afford to play the game anymore, or you find another solution.

[@maribakumon]

I, and probably many others, tried to get Maro to comment on that statement shortly after he made it to no avail. It's absurd how stupid WOTC thinks we are. Their lack of transparency is terrible, but what makes it worse is that all of these shit decisions are so obviously about money! Sure yeah they're a company and the bottom line is the most important aspect, but they are alienating existing players while keeping new players at arm's length by making it unaffordable to play. I for one haven't purchased new product in well over a year because of how expensive it all is. And the players at my LGS have all agreed that proxies are acceptable in any amount because of how expensive it is to get the cards we need in order to play the damn game. Apologies for the rant. It's expensive enough just to pay for basic needs. We don't need our entertainment to be even more draining.

[@karndrogo]

Listening to the original lore of six it would’ve actually been neat if Six is a legendary land after Wrenn parted with it

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yes! YES! I wanted to just type yes again! Because yes!

[@tardisman602]

Was thinking the same thing

[@Chocolate83Bunny]

"Six's Grove" it something would be just fine. New legendary lands are just as interesting as legendary creatures

[@joelhatterini6392]

The reason I don't try playing any formats outside of Commander or Pauper, is because I could buy a new pre-built gaming PC for the price of a tier-2 modern deck.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Pretty much!

[@JervisGermane]

And a vintage car for the price of a vintage deck.

[@warp9988]

Yup. Time to proxy up another commander deck because Hasbroze are disgusting.

[@Vearru]

I think that the references in this set is much more okay, because it’s not a story driven plane driven set. It acts as more of a fun call back to magic of old. Also I like it much more as in universe references rather than references to pop culture. I’m much happier with this set than other recent sets.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'd agree that this is the place to do those sorts of cards. I've just seen them so much in every other set that I'm sick of them honestly

[@doylerudolph7965]

This is something I didn’t really notice seeping into “core/expansion” sets until after MH1. Do you think the success of the extremely self-referential Modern Horizons was the catalyst? Or was it perhaps the death of Un-sets and especially the silver border, which were the previous outlets for those in-jokes?

[@Vearru]

@@doylerudolph7965 The original Modern Horizons + Throne of Eldraine. They are the catalysts. And removing the block structure of release also contributed to this problem since rather than focusing on telling a story they just shove in a bunch of jokes, which is very disappointing.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I keep saying it, they need to bring back the 3 set blocks

[@Vearru]

@@RedBobcatGames Honestly they don’t even need to do that. They can keep with no official block structure but just have sets that tell the same story. The GRN, RNA, WAR sets worked for this, they were able to tell a story without officially including them all in one block, ideally they would have spread things out a bit more between the sets but it worked, the whole Phyrexian arc worked without needing to be in blocks (that said it would’ve been much nicer if we stayed in the new planes for more than one set). 2 set blocks also can be nice with the Kaladesh, Amonkhet, and Ixalan stories; and 4 sets even works like Lorwyn/Shadowmoor and BFZ/SOI both kinda work as effectively being 4 set blocks (although changing the order to BFZ and SOI would’ve been so perfect). They just need to have more focus on story, and every time they go to a new plane I think we need multiple sets to tell that story and flesh out the world. We just need more story focused set design, and if they spread it out more they have more time to plan and write future stories which should give us better content overall.

[@captianbubbles4674]

On the topic of the "in joke" cards, I do think MH3 handles them better than OTJ or MKM did, as while psychic frog is technically a referance, the name "psychic frog" doesn't sound like a referance unless you already know what its referancing. It just sounds like what it is, a frog that has psychic powers. I don't think all of them are handled so well. As you said, Six is a mess in its lore breaking design. But I do think that referance cards like Wurmcoil Larva are necessarily a bad thing, as while it is a referance, its also something unique that has spawned off from the original card.

[@RedBobcatGames]

You know what, I would normally agree with you. I think I've just been ground down by how many of them there seem to be now, that I'm don't even like the ones that are good. I'm just sick of them in general it seems. So in answer to my question in the video. Yes, I am being grumpy haha

[@xaropevic7918]

I think that LCI did better than OTJ and MKM as well, didn't notice the pickaxe references until bobcat mentioned, and they seemed less on the nose to me comparatively

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh yeah, but that's when I truly started to notice it... and it's gotten so much worse since then!

[@khepri3266]

“Witch Enchanter. Dis enchanter!” That was so funny. Glad they spent 2 minutes explaining the joke.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Haha, yeah. Though in fairness I got actually excited vibes from them when they said it. I'll say this, WotC designers do still seem passionate about the game at the very least

[@gamma-bv6ty]

I actually like all the jokes and references in MH3. That's part of what Horizons sets are about imo. The problem is as you said, that every set has been like that for the past 6 months so it does get a bit tiring. If the majority of standard sets took themselves seriously, then it would be a great change of pace to have a set like this that doesn't. And even having a silly standard set once in a while could be nice too (despite the issues with OTJ, the community had been asking for a wild west set for ages). Jokes and silly sets are great when they're the exception not the rule.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Absolutely spot on what I think as well. Couldn't agree more

[@greysonmiller9407]

Your segment at 16:00 blew my mind. Ive always felt like something about the paper design felt like it had changed, but could never find a solution to my hypothesis. This completely makes sense. The influx of cards that copy triggers and permanents as a payoff, add ability counters to creatures, and other additive properties that are easier to code instead of things that are harder to code like replacement effect makes so much sense now. If you look closely, cards are even designed as if someone chooses at random from a bunch of categorized bins and pastes them into the rules text like Madlibs. "Whenever [Cardname] [Action], if you've [requirement], [payoff]." Cards used to do so much weirder stuff, and no wonder they are regurgitating the old stuff and playing it for a laugh! Its easier to play off the ease of reusing safe to implement cards as a joke than actually come up with mechanically weird and interesting effects. They design all the cards so that it will be easy to code into arena, and if any card like one of those 1% chances happens to crop up, they scrap it.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, I imagine the design teams work close together before it even gets to that stage as well. So anything too complicated to code just won't be seen in paper again. And yet Magic Online never seemed to have these issues

[@_Ve_98]

I don't believe this is at all happening. Just look at Emrakul. Coding the controlling a player effect must have been an absolute nightmare, yet they still did it. The issue is that you can't do something like that several times per set. It just makes sense to avoid certain designs because of how much more effort it takes to code them. It's not Arena dictating Magic it's accepting that the game needs to coexist in both mediums and each has its own limitations.

[@ninjanyan1579]

@@_Ve_98 then just... don't put that card in arena.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, or if Arena is unable to function as a way for people who want to play paper magic but can't, then maybe WotC should design a system that can

[@DoNotPassGO]

BUY SINGLES Wait, wrong channel...

[@RedBobcatGames]

Nah, I'm all about there here too. Maybe we should rework it so that it's legally distinct?

[@RedBobcatGames]

"Many Magic the Gathering players buy singles"?

[@stampede122]

@@RedBobcatGamesfuture video idea? 😅😅

[@slightlyOnion]

​@@RedBobcatGames nice

[@stickofbutter4144]

But I wanna draft 😢

[@Bonk_Co]

WE’RE BREAKING MODERN WITH THIS ONE 🗣️🗣️🗣️

[@RedBobcatGames]

And commander too apparently haha

[@902496]

As a commander player, my experience has been "These cards are amazing! 😃 They belong in every deck! 😦" The dual face lands are particularly egregious. 20 total, a full cycle of 2 color ones that come in tapped, and a cycle each of monocolored creatures and instants that can come in untapped for 3 life. These are nuts, and almost every deck will want to run at least one of them. They will become EDH staples and probably multi-format staples. Thankfully they are all uncommon so at least they don't touch pauper.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, I think they know exactly what they're doing here. Time for everyone to pay up apparently

[@andrewware5826]

I will point out that the card Aggressive Mining, which is a Minecraft reference and was made by the old lead designer of Minecraft is in a black border set of m15, which also had plants vs zombie card made by that game designer and the card hot soup, so not all references to other IP used to be in silver border sets. I will concede however that cards like psychic frog are the kinda of cards that the original silver border sets were filled with, jokes about magic cards and magic players mostly,

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, fair point. I had forgotten about those cards. Though, also they weirdly feel less on the nose than some of these news ones

[@GeneralJerrard101]

I do like the occasional joke card. Red Herring killed me. But you're right, if they want to do so many joke cards, they should make more Un sets. Imagine of karlov manor had been an un set, and instead of disguise being what it was, you could disguise cards as other cards, and put other cards on top of the facedown cards to give them wild new abilities and maybe totem armor, or guessing games.

[@doylerudolph7965]

Red Herring should have had cloak, and there should have been cards that allowed a player to choose (not target) a cloaked permanent (perhaps at random) and destroy it, but Red Herring wouldn’t be destroyed? Maybe if it would be destroyed by a spell or ability an opponent controls, you may turn it face up instead, and it’s either a beater with no efficient way to flip it, or it says “when this is turned face up, it can’t be destroyed by spells or abilities your opponents control. Turn it face down, it becomes cloaked” and you’d have mind games of what cloaks are important and what ones aren’t. Put it in the limited set at common or even lower, print “a player may play any number of cards named Red Herring” on it.

[@GeneralJerrard101]

@@doylerudolph7965 you are totally right, it should have had cloak. I will say that I'm not sure if you'd need the choose instead of target terminology because when a card flips it is the same creature and it never hits the stack. I also believe that a simple death trigger would get the desired proof that it is a red Herring and then flip it back down. Of course if this was an Un set it would say "Disguise - getting targeted by a spell or ability."

[@mueezadam8438]

The dev team making Six a treefolk is accidentally an extremely interesting bit of card storytelling. If Wrenn isn’t animating Six… What *is*…?

[@RedBobcatGames]

Okay, okay yeah. I can get on board with that. That's fun!

[@marcellosalis5063]

I think the main point of this video is that they're trying to turn a non-rotating format into a rotating one. They tried this with Legacy 15 years ago and they messed up. They tried it with Modern 5 years ago and they messed up. And yes: Modern Horizons 3 is actually targeted to Commander, because Modern is already messed up. Now they're trying hard with Commander and in fact they've already messed up with that as well.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Personally I'd say the point of the video is I'm really annoyed about that whole Six as a Treefolk thing, but 10 minutes on just that would have annoyed people!

[@ninjanyan1579]

@@RedBobcatGames Make it a separate video then, I'd watch.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Haha, thank you! If you like lengthy insane ramblings you're going to love the video I'm working on now

[@marcellosalis5063]

@@RedBobcatGames I love insane ramblings as well! I find fascinating how you could analyse so seriously, point by point, something as b*llsh*tty by definition as WotC marketing announcements. 😁

[@RedBobcatGames]

It just... makes me feel things. Watching them is like watching a dance routine by someone that robbed me, or looking at a painting created by someone I know is a liar. I'm simply inspired by corporate nonsense

[@qriist1850]

Little did we know that Ajani's Pridemate getting functional errata to accomodate Arena was just the tip of the iceberg.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, it seems giving the player the option to add the counter would have been too hard to code? I guess??

[@gentleman_muk]

@@RedBobcatGamesor maybe too annoying to choose yes or no if it triggers a lot

[@RedBobcatGames]

I guess. I mean I feel there's ways around this. Just add a toggle on the card for auto add for instance. But yeah

[@qriist1850]

@@RedBobcatGames IIRC Mark Rosewater was asked about the errata when it happened and he said the change was for Arena flow reasons. I agree that using the computer's ability to remember a toggle would be the better solution.

[@CTimmerman]

Cardboard rectangles are serious business. Six was probably still sentient at that time.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh very serious indeed. So serious that I have to ask, at what time? The 30 seconds between when Wrenn was still joined and left? If you say yes, I'd probably be okay with that honestly haha

[@alistairetheblu]

@10:40 Except that their official stance is "they don't acknowledge the secondary market." Of course, that is invalidated by them saying that line about a modern precon being impossible because it "wouldn't match the price point people will pay for a precon". And hey, they also "don't have an msrp anymore" so that makes the price point statement nonsense as well, right? The real answer is that they look at "cost" to print these including how much potential money they lose by not saving reprints till some other set, but yeah, what a tangled mess of lies and predatory practices.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Well, I didn't want to be the one to say it...

[@Mako276]

Haven't finished the video yet but I hope you mention the actually functionally broken Wheel of Potential.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I sadly did not

[@Mako276]

@@RedBobcatGames Boooooooo. Terrible video. :)

[@RedBobcatGames]

Haha, yeah. Sorry

[@JazMan2001]

Wait, did Rosewater just acknowledge the secondary market on his blog about the commander precons???

[@RedBobcatGames]

I mean, I'm just requoting what he said.

[@grantflippin7808]

Every day we stray closer to TCGs getting banned in the United States

[@someepicnerd7821]

The modern horizon sets have always caused some changes in almost every format the sets cards are legal in but this time it is so blatantly focus on commander that it is a problem

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, the precons alone prove that

[@Jupiterbun-bunJetson]

Gonna be honest, if myself or my friends had the option to buy a modern deck we’d probably pull the good stuff out for commander or 60 card kitchen table magic games. But they 100% should have made modern precons for the modern set. Commander decks being a part of everything isn’t really bad if it’s the money maker for wotc, it is bad though when it overtakes non-commander things. Also, the jokes and stuff like Six not being a tree are things that myself and I think most people don’t care about. Gonna be honest, I don’t know what a paychatog is beyond seeing it in some 45 minute long video essay about mtg. Psychic frog is a funny looking frog that I want lol Good video dude! Also, saw another youtuber show off your textless deck in a short which is awesome. ^^

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah I saw that too. And I think you're right about most people not caring about Six. I just... you know I have to follow my heart. I care! Haha, and I think that comes across, so hopefully that in itself is entertaining at least

[@Jupiterbun-bunJetson]

@@RedBobcatGames It’s a fun flavor fail argument, it wasn’t taken too seriously. ^^ I didn’t know tarmagoyf (or however you spell it) isn’t even in the commander deck. That’s so dumb. A bunch of the people I know who love commander are all saying they really want these decks, they have the money for them, but the cards in them just aren’t worth the prices.

[@RedBobcatGames]

See, I've had a few people tell me in the comments that it's obvious Tarmogofy isn't in the deck because people always check deck lists before they buy a product... and... I just don't think that's true. I watched this marketing vid and then found out that Tarmo wasn't in there till after. If I could have afforded it, there's a chance a would have made the purchase without checking myself. It happens!

[@Jupiterbun-bunJetson]

@@RedBobcatGames I’m pretty sure most people go off of what they see on the packaging exclusively in most cases. One of my friends thought the eldrazi deck came with all the eldrazi titans because it’s, you know, an eldrazi commander deck. lol

[@RedBobcatGames]

I can see that, and they wouldn't have been wrong to think it!

[@spvstu]

Tarmaqof is not even expensive to get a reprint. No one would have complained but also what a flavor fail in the theme deck.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yup, 100%

[@gustavosousa5246]

can i say the flavor of energy trows me off a bit, first, energy was temur, when it bicome jeskai, second it was implied that ir was used for powering artfacts and creatures that lived close to eather, besides the izzet ones, most of the energy cards feels so distant from the original idea

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh that's interesting. I hadn't really looked into Energy because it's never been my thing, but you raise a good point. I might give it an eye

[@collinbeal]

I wish the energy dude from the commander precons was Temur so that I could use the cracked green energy cards on Arena for a Brawl deck with him at the helm.

[@collinbeal]

To be entirely fair, though, there were white and black energy cards on Kaladesh, as the Consolate and Aetherborn also made use of it.

[@CircusQueen8]

18:10 to be fair, their options were A. Don't use finality counters, and make the already wordy cards even more so B. Do use finality counters, and include reminder text (which is worse than option A) C. Use finality counters with no reminder text, assuming that franchised players (that this set is marketed towards) would remember the fairly recent mechanic or would just look it up

[@tomhowell8398]

Or they could just not print these designs because they don't fit on the card and that's a bad thing.

[@RedBobcatGames]

D. Lower complexity creep of the game and print less wordy cards?

[@yurisei6732]

@@RedBobcatGames The alternative is powercreep. Complexity creep is necessary if you don't want to go balls-in on powercreep, because if you have neither, new products aren't very interesting. To sell new product, you either make the product more powerful than existing options so that people buy it to win, or you make it the same strength as existing options but accomplish those effects in a more intriguing way so that people buy it to have a fresh experience.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'm not sure I agree. WotC are always finding new design space. Look at things like Crimes and Outlaws for instance from OTJ. That's a whole new untapped area of design, not much more complicated than previous card design space and could easily have been lower power to keep the creep in check (though, historically it wouldn't have sold as well if that were the case admittedly. I just think the health of the game should come before profits)

[@yurisei6732]

@@RedBobcatGames But Crimes and Outlaws were terrible... Outlaws isn't new design space, it's just tribal but where the tribe is multiple classes. It's not even the first time we've had multiple-tribal support, since undead support often says "zombies and skeletons". Crimes is way too broad and doesn't work on a flavour or archetype level. But it doesn't really matter how good mechanics are, it matters how much people want to buy the cards. OTJ is a set people bought because it was powerful, not because it was exciting.

[@michaelturner2806]

I want to be a little more forgiving on the digital collaboration side. I forget what set it card it was, but I remember a story where one card required two months of extra work by programmers to make it work as written on Magic Online, where if it had been worded slightly differently but functionally similar it could've avoided all that work. So if it's something minor like that, I'm all for avoiding forcing others to do unnecessary work, especially if it causes people to be stressed and forced overtime or something. It doesn't set the best precedent though and can be a slippery slope, that can lead to cards being designed not just to avoid unnecessary excess work, but to restrict functionality to only things currently doable within the client. If it leads to every card is just "(old card) with set's mechanic" that's a problem, yeah.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Ahh, see. Now I'm of the other mind. I LOVE extra work. And unions that don't allow for mandatory overtime. Too much work? Good, hire more people! Or at the very least stop firing them!

[@collardcow4183]

Hi, real modern player here to complain ad nauseam. My biggest complaint is honestly those darn commander precons. I’ve been saying for YEARS that they need to bring back starter decks (precons for non-commander formats), especially for modern specifically where the price of entry is often $1,000+. It’s TOO MUCH COMMANDER. Like, we get it, it’s your pet project, now can you please print something with us competitives in mind? Can you lower the price of entry to one of your (historically) best formats so I can see other people at LGS tournaments? It’s the most frustrating part of this set for me, unequivocally. ESPECIALLY when you factor in MaRo saying “players wouldn’t pay what it takes for a modern precon”. It’s a not-so-cleverly disguised way to say “we won’t sell powerful format staples at reasonable prices, because line must go up and you competitive weenies will buy it anyway”. Just ridiculous, the whole thing. Next, let’s talk about set design. It’s not a terribly designed set, but it isn’t great either. I love limited, it’s my favorite way to play magic. I’m at my LGS weekly, always to draft the newest set (or sometimes chaos draft whatever bulk they have lying about, which is dope af I highly recommend). Now this set was designed around 3 specific themes: Eldrazi, Flip-walkers (think Tamiyo, Ajani, Sorin, etc.), and energy. Two of the three are generally considered to be “parasitic” mechanics by cube designers (Eldrazi and energy), and the flip-walkers aren’t really a mechanic as much as they are a feature. I personally never liked Eldrazi, and this set won’t change that. In fact, these new Eldrazi really subtract from the novelty that made their original appearance awesome for a lot of players. So, Eldrazi bad. I think they handled energy well in this set actually. They printed multiple cards that use energy and are generically good, making the mechanic less parasitic as a whole. 1 point for WotC. But these mechanics are bad in one limited set, because they are SO VERY COMPLICATED. These mechanics worked originally in Kaladesh and Zendikar because they were the most complicated mechanics in their respective sets, and newer drafters could just play with very regular/basic/easy mechanics instead, they weren’t forced to pick between multiple difficult mechanics. Last week I missed the draft at my LGS (thanks Spence lol) but showed up late anyway to hang out with my friends, dad, and brother. When I got there, my brother asked me to help coach a newer player thru the games. So I helped her, but she wasn’t even playing the right color lands. And the complicated af mechanics did her no favors. She was so confused and overwhelmed the whole time that she left early. And I felt really bad for her, because her friends had told her this was the coolest set ever, only for her to have to deal with not understanding what the heck was even going on. It’s all too much for one set. Beyond that, let’s finally talk about modern and the damage this will do to non-rotating formats. Modern has been bad for a while (because without cards ever leaving the format, it was always doomed to be mired down in overpowered garbage eventually) but it’s been at its worst since MH2. Modern Horizons 2 really killed the format, printing all sorts of cards that are still relevant and powerful today, years later. Ragavan is too strong, but so is grief. And Solitude. And so much more. But this set spits on the grave of modern with even more stupid designs like Nadu/Phlage/Psychic Frog. WotC wants so desperately for modern to be fun again, but fundamentally misunderstands why it stopped being fun. They think we want to play stronger cards, but what we really want is better gameplay and lower prices. It’s just another example of WotC killing something cool (and profitable) long term so they can reap rewards in the short term. This set is not the worst thing to happen to Magic: the Gathering, but it’s definitely a negative impact on the game as a whole. It is a product that is emblematic of all the game’s issues in the present-day: High prices even I can’t rationalize, power-crept cards to force players to buy in or not play, jokes in place of substance, unfriendly to new and casual players alike, and it’s all really built for commander isn’t it? It just sucks that a greedy corporation is so dead-set on killing this thing that we love in the name of money, and all we can do is watch with mild anger. TLDR: This set really f***in SUCKS.

[@RedBobcatGames]

That part especially about the new player sucks the most. I hope she comes back at some point. Also, thank you for the comment. As a non-modern player I felt I was taking a bit of a gamble complaining on people's behalfs about things I wasn't sure I fully comprehended. (It's why I asked for feedback like yours). Nice to know I wasn't totally off the mark. Thank you

[@denshitenshi]

As a game developer I can imagine how much of a pain to make replacement effects would be on Arena, but also there are a handful of "instead" placement effects already on Arena already. That game rakes it in, surely they can get some extra manpower on this?

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yes, exactly! Or at the least stop firing people!

[@Windowlick_]

The bit about Arena controlling how cards work must be true because Wheel of Potential doesnt work in Arena like it does in paper. Because of the wording in paper you can set the X energy cost to whatever you want, and choose not to. pay it.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Excellent stuff, good good good

[@Hex.Decimal]

Bobcat you are a total game changer for MTG KZbin you are a voice for the voiceless and speak complete facts. Thank you for expressing so much so precisely, your writing is very enjoyable. Did you see that popular MTG shorts KZbinr referenced you in their latest video (based on your textless commander deck) it’s awesome and they pay credit to you. I really think you’re gonna be a very successful KZbinr if that’s what you want, keep making new ruleset videos and custom card videos, thank you for what you do! Much love from the States.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Well! I don't know what to say to that! Thank you very much, those are some really kind and supportive words and it means a lot. Thank you again!

[@andyharrisonharper]

Im CONSTANTLY saying that i would kill to get into modern or other 60 card formats, but since theres no modern precons, insane financial barrier to entry, and hardly any support from the game stores since they all mainly focus commander and limited, its not even worth the investment since game stores arent incentivized to run events for it.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Exactly the boat I'm in too

[@shakyrob6512]

Yeah they only make packs to sell to people to draft or to take advantage of edh players that don't buy sungles. They don't give a damn about any of the other formats. The only reason they care about edh is because they sell the 100 card bricks for two or three times the price that they used to sell the OG 60 card decks back in the day. Decks a lot of people only buy for a few cards they contain not for the actual precon decks. Todays wotc sucks.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I mean I hate to agree, I love this game but you may be right. My instinct is to point the finger at Hasbro, but they're basically one and the same so even that doesn't make me feel better

[@gatesofnocturne3700]

@@RedBobcatGames I definitely have... concerns, about Mark Rosewater, several of which are directly linked to his responses you went over in this video. If WotC separates from Hasbro but MaRo is still involved, I honestly don't really see a lot changing when he's out here defending the worst practices of current MtG

[@cheesi]

@@gatesofnocturne3700 Yeah usually when I hear him talk about business stuff I'm disappointed :/ lots of great design insights but man I hope he's just toeing the company line rather than actually believing all the stuff he says sometimes

[@curtin1107]

@@gatesofnocturne3700 idk i personally don't see how Maro is to blame for any of this. He's very much a designer first, and he's open about what he does at the company with his blog and podcast. Which means he's a convenient mouthpiece and defender for the company - so of course all terrible WOTC defenses are going to have to come from him. It's like how Tolarian Community College enthusiastically revealed the Fetchland secret lair and had to pretend to like it (if only for that announcement video), except unlike MaRo he's not obliged to defend WOTC outside of specific collaborations, and so TCC was able get serious and push back in a follow up video. If you disagree with what your company does but you've got a huge social media presence, I think you're contractually obligated to at least not disparage the company - and it's not unlikely that with Blogatog MaRo might be legit obliged to actively defend the company as well. --- Not to say MaRo isn't responsible for some terrible cards and has some weird opinions about design, or that I think he's necessarily the best for the job (I don't know if there's anyone better, but more because Mark is just so vocal while nobody else - okay, one other designer - is). But it's clear from his Drive-to-Work and his Blogatog and his job (which is 'head designer', not 'big finance-person' or whatever) that his passion is designing cards, and I really doubt that he's actually responsible for any business decisions. At worst you can blame him for not pushing back.

[@fredericgagnon]

You can probably blame the card "whims of the fates" for the fact that they consult the Arena team when doing card design to make sure it doesn't break anything. Arena didn't exist when they first printed whims of the fates, but MTGO did, and because this is the first time an effect caused 3 piles of cards to be created instead of 2, it broke MTGO, they couldn't include it at all for a really long time and they had to overhaul the code to get it in. I don't mind them consulting with the Arena team, as long as it doesn't hinder their creativity too much.

[@RedBobcatGames]

But MTGO managed it in the end though? See, the issue is with how things currently work is that a card like that will never see the light of day now because they just don't want to code it into Arena. It's literally limiting design space

[@Raymx3]

This is the best way to summarize how I’ve felt about mtg in 2024. I want nothing more than for wizards to watch this

[@RedBobcatGames]

Wizards as a company? Sure, but the people there? I hope if they do they start with one of the more positive ones. I feel bad for the developers making this game under boot of Hasbro. I wish we could seperate out those companies or do away with the targets

[@fredericchristie3472]

So, regarding Modern precons: They *absolutely* should have done it. *But*... They did sell Pioneer Challenger decks. They've sold decks to get people into Standard. They apparently have seen that these sell underwhelmingly. That having been said... We had a ton of fun with the Pioneer decks we got. They were really interesting... And they could have been made even better out of the box, with things like more Hazoret copies in the red aggro deck, etc. If they were willing to print more valuable cardboard, which for some reason they refuse to do. The Standard planeswalker intro decks overwhelmingly sucked, but they could just have printed better planeswalkers. From a pedagogical perspective, showing players overcosted planeswalkers who often struggle to defend themselves actually will misteach them about the game. So I absolutely do think that these products *could* sell and get people in, but they probably do have *some* data that suggests otherwise. I'd just suggest that they can't build these other formats if they don't try.

[@RedBobcatGames]

One of the issues is that they refuse to print a deck that doesn't make money. It's okay if some products aren't themselves profitable, because if it brings in new players then they'll make more money in the long run. For instance, I now won't be buying any cards at all for Modern, because I do not have even a basic starter set. If they'd have sold me one at a loss, I'd probably have given them more money long run buying cards to upgrade it later. They're being very short sighted and it's bad for the health of the game (in my opinion)

[@fredericchristie3472]

@@RedBobcatGames So, I agree that they should sometimes take a chance on products... but if something doesn't actually sell that well, then it's not going to be onboarding people in any case. It's clear that Hasbro is pushing them toward really short-sighted decisions to maximize short-term profit and that's dumb and scary for the hobby, but I can understand the position that they can't just roll the dice. Of course, I also reject the idea that people won't buy the product under any circumstances. Like, if they released Modern decks that each had one fetch land for each of the colors the deck needs, triomes as needed, hits like Karn the Great Creator, etc., people would buy them just for the secondary value. I know I would. (That too is a problem because it'd mean the price would go up just for that, but that's at least a success by a lot of metrics, and I think their reasoning on this topic is just so myopic - I think they should be far more generous with reprints than they are). Yes, you now won't get into Modern, but they have to take a chance that you would a) buy the product at all (pretty clearly you would but marketers can't always take that at face value) and b) *stayed around in Modern long enough to justify them selling additional product worth the risk in the first place* . That's far from a clear value proposition, especially since the reality is that something like Modern *does* require changing and continued investment. People can say that they just play jank with their friends and don't always meta-optimize, but in my experience that's not wholly true: When someone gets run over by a deck, they tend to want to improve the deck, and for some people if they can't do so on a budget they'll just change format. And, of course, the whole discussion of "selling at a loss" is moronic (and of course you allude to this correctly). This is fucking cardboard. Even with packaging, they're always making money. I think they could quite easily make money off of $25-40. Even at 25 cents a card counting packaging and everything else, they can afford it, and we know from the Pioneer Challenger decks that they can economically sell them for around $30. I do still think that it's likely from their perspective that taking a risk on a straight up loss leader would be inadvisable, but it's straightforward nonsense to say that they couldn't take some of their existing MH3 print run and some Modern staples and make some decks. So, yeah, they should have made an inexpensive set of Modern decks to onboard people onto the format, with some play advice from players and with some suggestions for play. I could totally see a Jund deck that has the relevant line of Goyfs, Lili, etc. and a Jund triome, just to signpost new players.

[@tomhowell8398]

The decks would sell better if they did what they were supposed to. They'd only be heavily marked up if that improved value made them an outlier. If the same standard for value was applied across the product line, the secondary market value of the cards that belong in modern decks would be lower. As it is, Wizards seems to have made modern so inaccessible that they've essentially had to replace it in about eleven different ways at this point.

[@fredericchristie3472]

@@tomhowell8398 Again: You're probably right, but that's not what their sales data are telling them, apparently. That having been said, the Pioneer decks supposedly sold well enough, and WotC's modern cynicality as a result of needing to be a flagship project makes it hard to take them seriously on these fronts. And I can see the challenge from their perspective. And, frankly, I think Modern is inaccessible not just from MH1 and 2 and pushed new design but also just powerful old cards. It's definitely more accessible than Legacy and Vintage... but, well, screw the Reserved List.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Hear hear!

[@triggerman7]

I realise there's literally a format called Standard, but as someone who can't afford to keep up with every release, Modern is what I think of as "classic Magic the Gathering" (even if I mostly play Commander lately). It's a damn shame the company seems to be moving away from supporting it - surely there's room for sets that suit every format? In fact, wouldn't that make them more money? Sigh...

[@RedBobcatGames]

You'd think!

[@nineth_lion6133]

I didn't know about the lore of for six until you brought it up but it really feels like they missed a cool opportunity. And the missed opportunity show just how much more care they put into designing the mechanics of Universes beyond. Like imagine if instead if Six had vanishing 2 or 3 and "when Six dies return it to to battlefield transformed" and then the back half could either just be a forest, or maybe be a 0/4 plant with defender with the retrace effect moved to this side.

[@RedBobcatGames]

OH MY GOD OR A MELD CARD!!! That would have been awesome!

[@_Ve_98]

The thing I will say about references is that they make far more sense in a Modern Horizons set because of how they are meant to change so many formats. It's just far easier to remember cards if they are like "oh, it's mulldrifter but eldrazi". It's not just about "funny, haha". It makes the game easier to play and makes the pseudo rotation that mh always causes far less painful to the players because it at least references the modern of old.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh yeah, and if they're going to do references this is the set for it. But they have to do it constantly in the other sets too?

[@VellanShadow]

The fact that Six is a Treefolk instead of a Plant is really the saddest thing out of this entire set :(

[@RedBobcatGames]

Thank you! I thought I'd be alone in this niche opinion!

[@thelunaist2014]

"Don't ask questions, just comsume product then get excited for next product."

[@RedBobcatGames]

Pretty much. I make a point of this in the next video I'm working on now

[@axelostlund2348]

Some of the most compelling games of Magic I have played have been Packwars of Champions of Kamigawa, and other older sets, both players were low powered, and thus on an even playing field.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Agreed. Plus this might be a weird take, but I liked the slower pace back then. Not everyone needed to combo on turn 2. A turn 1 land then pass was fine

[@MasterDecoy1W]

EDH player, here. If I could, Marathon Man-style, force Wizards R&D to eat a copy of every "powerful card" they had the audacity to print since they started pumping their trash designs into the format, I would gleefully oversee such an unethical enterprise. OH, and the EDH Rules Committee can join them, for never having the spine to ban those cards. If they are going to act like WotC employees and cover for their bad decisions, they can suffer with them too. EDH may be the most played tabletop format, but they are doing their damnedest to sink that. Pickup games are hell unless you can coordinate the table to bully ThOracle players or the like, and now Nadu is just going to be more of the same. As to your point about Modern Pre-cons, imagine if you could pay $50 for a basic-bitch burn deck that was always relevant because WotC moderated their eternal format to make it so. It doesn't have to be packed with all their precious headliner mythics if the format was balanced around not making rarer and newer cards objectively more powerful. Nice to have confirmation that Arena is shitting up design. I already knew it was true, but the cope squad can't say anything when it's literally in the video being spoken by WotC employees. Get fucked. PS: you forgot the sideboard in a BO3 format, so it's 25 less cards they have to print.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh yeah, fair. I did forget that. Good shout

[@h2ojr1]

Wizards: We printed commander decks instead of modern precons because it "does not line up with the price point players are willing to pay" Also Wizards: **prints a commander deck with so much power and scarcity that it's price point is $114 on average**

[@RedBobcatGames]

Right? Madness

[@94knux]

Shoutout to Grave Bramble for having a joke and a reference 6:15

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, there were a lot of cards I could have chosen from to be fair

[@zeusalternative1270]

Commander suffers from what I call "The Charizard effect" basically they take something they know people like and push it over, over and over into people's faces so much that they neglect other pokemon and players that like them. Not only that but the blatant favoritism is annoying people who would be neutral to the whole thing. At the end people like it because they promote it and they promote it bc people like it so it never ends, unless people stop consuming that thing in particular and then maybe they'll pay atention to the other parts of their game.

[@RedBobcatGames]

That's what Mr Rosewater said. People buy product A so they make Product A. I just wish that didn't mean they stopped making Product C completely

[@xaropevic7918]

I love that name

[@xaropevic7918]

I love that name

[@xaropevic7918]

I love that name

[@MWImmortalking]

I loved the part about Modern precons, WotC *COULD* make precons with an affordable entry proce point. But of course they arent willing to price one as such and print enough supply to meet demand for such a product to avoid scalping.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Well, if they really wanted to avoid scalping they'd print it to demand. But yeah, I get you

[@Trogdorbad]

Fascinating to hear them actively discuss how Arena dictates paper design. I'm still extremely pissed off about when they changed how Training Grounds works because of it getting added to Arena and needing to match in paper due to it now being Pioneer legal. The change would be a lot less of a problem...if they hadn't just printed Dynaheir - a commander who cares about how much mana you pay for activated abilities - just the year prior. I tracked down an original copy so I could more easily rule 0 it to function as originally intended, but that change still sucked just about all desire I had to make that deck out of me.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'm out of the loop here, I avoid Arena for exactly this sort of thing. What did they do to Training Grounds?

[@cleanaccount9991]

I think one problem with modern precondition is the fact that it, by nature is competitive. Like I understand that modern precondition would be cool, but you either make underpowered versions that are basically just casual sixty card starter decks, or you juice up the precons, causing EVERYBODY to get their hands on these new precons. One of the reasons commander is played is because there is no requirement to build a good deck, you don’t need multiple versions of cards, and you can play very casually. Even most fnm nights are still generally more competitive than commanders nights (at least at my LGS). I agree with the take. Just something I found.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Sure, but they do (or at least did) make things like pioneer decks and standard precons once upon a time. I'd like to see a similar approach taken with those. They're not the best, but they're okay. They play well against each other, but if you want to juice them up then you can by swapping a handful of the cards out. I'm saying create an extra layer to Modern via the precons that reduces the cost of entry somewhat, instead of this black and white "You either have the best deck or you don't play" approach that currently seems to be the case

[@chromaphasia453]

I want to point out with the price point argument. The issue isn't that wotc are being greedy and refusing to reprint rare cards in order to keep their secondary value high, the issue is that wotc is being greedy and refusing to set an MSRP. If wotc released precons with multiple high power reprints that are modern viable decks, their price tag would become inflated to $500+ before they even hit shelves because there is no set price. MtG products have had the price point of 'What people are willing to pay' for a long time. So when mark rosewater says they would be at a price point too high for what most players expect for a precon, he's right, they would be more expensive then players expect, because wotc made it this way.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, very very true

[@pe-ka1844]

the quotes at super juiced chapter are my exact gripes and fears with the design today. they genuinely think powerful = fun and don't consider the fact that games where a bomb like that is not answered immediately snowballs quick into an unwinnable situation. you might not know you've lost yet, but the constant value a new card generates is so overwhelming that it doesn't allow for midrange games/decks to exist. the format speeds to a turn 2 wincon race and that might be fun to some but severely cuts the amount of variation a meta can have

[@RedBobcatGames]

And yet, Draft Bootsers are gone and now we have "Play" Boosters with extra rare and mythic cards (for twice the price). Yay! That'll solve the problems!

[@smallmailman3992]

Ah yes, commander masters 2.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Pretty much!

[@crimerslimer]

y'know, if players want a non-rotating format that isn't periodically revamped with new cards aimed specifically at it, they could play cube instead

[@RedBobcatGames]

Until it picks up, and then Cube Masters somehow becomes a thing

[@geoffreybomber]

I get that people are frustrated with the de facto rotation, but if you wanted a static format, there’s premodern. The use of metagame tracking allows for formats to be solved since you can track over time what are the strongest decks, and the last thing I want is the gameplay to never change and tournaments coming down to successfully predicting the metagame for that event. So if you’re willing to accept that new cards to a format can be a good thing, the conversation then becomes what degree of change is acceptable. Hard to say how it will shake out, but new archetypes have been introduced, existing archetypes are bolstered, and dead archetypes are now viable again (cough storm). From a design standpoint, that seems incredibly successful. In terms of accessibility because of price, yeah it sucks. But if you can get 3 friends together for a commander pod, you can get a three round robin with proxies to see if you like the format. Rental services online also allow exposure. I get that these are reasonable hurdles to get into the format, but it seems pretty worth it given that it’s the most popular constructed format.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I don't play the format, so don't really have a hill to die on when it comes to the rotation argument. Just "reporting" what I hear in this one. But, as for you're point about proxies I totally agree. Pokemon even print official ones of tournament winning decks. I think if WotC had some that for Modern I probably would have bitten instead of ignoring the set and format entierly like I plan to now

[@thehipduke1769]

My own comments on whats said I just recently got into Magic and for a while I only knew commander because that was simply all the shop had for precons. As someone who had never played there was no way in hell I would start buying packs to try assemble something. A friend also bought the Eldrazi Precon and my god it feels like everything in that deck does at least two things and has to interact with something else.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Singles are the way to go if you're looking to build your own deck. Or proxies to be honest

[@thehipduke1769]

@@RedBobcatGames Now that I have actually played some games that exactly what I'm doing. Cards are wayyy too expensive to just buy randomly so proxing stuff that seems fun trying it out and going from there.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yup, which is a weird thing for them to do as a company. They've priced it so high they've trained their players to stop buying cards

[@rain4825]

here's a bit of trivia for your compliment sandwitch: lili's hair ornament she stole from the archangel of tithes, as seen on the card "unholy hunger"

[@RedBobcatGames]

I knew that. There's been a big debate in the community over whether that was set on Dominaria or Innistrad, but I'm here to say it's Dominaria without a doubt

[@rain4825]

@@RedBobcatGames I'd say Innistrad myself, the architecture on unholy hunger looks more innistradian than dominarian, and there are overall more angels on innistrad. To find them on dominaria you'd have to seek them specifically and I doubt Lili would do that. Besides, her double faced card in origins show the newly ignited planeswalker on the new plane, and she has the ornament here. As she wasn't nearly as proficient a necromancer before her spark ignited and she learned more on innistrad, I don't see her killing angels before that. Also, before becoming a planeswalker she was seen as a young noble lady, and a healer at that. Nothing that would garner the wrong kind of attention from angels.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I know, I know, I know. Trust me, I want it to be Innistrad too because I'd love to put those cards in my Innistrad themed decks. But it's Dominaria. Which reminds me, I did one video in my "Is It Innistrad" series and really need to get back to it for cards like this

[@rain4825]

@@RedBobcatGames Seems like your mind is set. But then, what about "tainted remedy"? she doesn't have the piece on the card illustration, and the events depicted directly resulted in her spark igniting, sending her to inistrad. She didn't come back to dominaria for a while after that either.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I know, and I agree. But you'll just have to trust me for now, there's too much to go into in a comment. I'll add it to my list of videos to make going over it

[@yankeedoodle5187]

One thing I think MH3 does do incredibly well is the art. So much of the artwork in this set is phenomenal, especially compared to what we've been getting recently. Lots of standouts.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, yeah you're not wrong. I will give it that

[@matthewkeeling886]

Frankly, after several draft and sealed experiences with the set. It is hit-or-miss on how fun it is in limited. A lot of the powerful effects are ones that undo what a player just did or extend the game really long so you get lots of land drops rather than, you know, ramping you into having enough mana for casting Eldrazi. If you have two energy decks or aggro decks facing off it is fun and fast with complex board states making for some really interesting games. If you have anything else at the table it is boring and slower than molasses in would have been in January at the north pole during the Younger Dryas. You would think that after the disasters that were the last two Modern Horizons sets they would have learned not to do this "amped up Modern Set" thing again. At least it fits the previously established pattern and isn't as insulting as the MKM/Cluedo thing of printing Shock in the main set for the pun then printing Lightning Bolt in the other half for who knows what reason when Standard desperately needs better direct damage cards for Red. They have been using the "Commander is Popular!" excuse for shoving those decks in everyone's faces and discontinuing other products for over a decade now and the format had been about to totally collapse in popularity when they started. The whole thing is total marketing driven insanity! And they seriously need to stop with the Commander preconstructed decks every set. The whole point of EDH was that it was the thing you played with castoffs and one-of cards already in your collection not a deck straight out of the box!

[@RedBobcatGames]

I haven't heard much from people that have actually played with the set yet. Your comment was a surprise to read and extremely enlightening!

[@BirbIrl]

me regularly checking if i should come back to magic the gathering, sighing in relief knowing that i'm not missing out

[@RedBobcatGames]

I mean I dunno. To be honest I'm having a good time with and I haven't even bought any cards lately haha

[@BirbIrl]

@@RedBobcatGames oh for sure but i have played since 2015. there's a looot to miss. i just play a cube every now and again of an older set or two

[@RedBobcatGames]

I still have never done a cube. I must get round to it

[@Ghost_of_spades]

Honestly it does feel like a commander set with a different name

[@RedBobcatGames]

Right?

[@peternaylor7341]

Howdy! I saw this video a few days back, and a bunch of thoughts have been living in my brain rent free since then and I feel the need to share them; I am an avid modern lover and have been since I got into Magic years ago, and I have some mixed feelings about some of the points you make. Pretty much everything from 6:31 onwards (the "Super Juiced" section) I agree with, with in particular it being an incredibly deep frustration of mine that sets like MH3 can feel more like a new Commander Legends set than a dedicated modern/+ set, and the fact they're once again choosing to print new Commander decks instead of trying to bring back something like a Modern Challenger deck absolutely bums me out; I really wish modern felt and was affordable to get into without needing to sink potentially thousands of dollars and years of play into. Also my god! You're right! Whenever MH sets drop they uproot the format and suddenly the decks I've spent hundreds of dollars on are suddenly barely playable! Aaaah! (Phoenix died for Hogaak's sins and I'll be seeing the Evoke elementals in hell.) With that being said! I do take issue with some of the early points you made at the very start from the first "Now a criticism" section where the arguments can feel almost bad faith and frustrating the listen to. Comparing the cards like Psychic Frog and Psychatog, Mogg Mob and Mogg Fanatic, Serum Visionary and Serum Visions, etc. and lambasting those for being references to older cards saying "Why are so many cards based on one*? (*based on a joke)" is missing the forest for the trees. Modern Horizons as a set is inherently a callback/reference set, where a unifying theme in all three sets is taking old cards, giving them a fresh coat of paint/body. (MH1 having cards like Cabal Therapist and Ranger-Captain of Eos and MH2 having cards like Thought Monitor and Ignoble Hierarch to name some) With this I want to note that I don't think you're wrong to be calling out magic set design for not taking itself or the IP seriously, but I also do think you're barking up the wrong tree raising this against Modern Horizons specifically. Modern Horizons is exactly what it should be and what it always has been: a mostly narrative-less mishmash set of references and a celebration of old icons and archetypes, trying to be revitalized through fresh designs and powerful cardboard to keep up with constant power creep - and for that I don't think it should be held to the same standards, because it was designed to be something different. The fact it's no longer something different and the references and humor from other sets are now encroaching on it? Now that's a completely different story and I don't know how I feel about it...

[@RedBobcatGames]

I actually totally agree with you. I can tell I'm being grumpy here. It's just I think this set was the straw that broke my back. Trying actively ignore all the references in the last... like 8 sets has taken a toll, and then seeing a set full of nothing but broke me. I understand this is the place for them, but I'm so sick of them. If this set were the exception I would celebrate it I think. So yeah, in short you're right

[@achimney29]

I sold out of MTG two years ago, but I still keep up with some of the spoilers and watch gameplay vids from various channels and holy shit this game is nearly unrecognisable. Every set has no vanilla creatures, sets come out so frequently that there's barely any time to digest the cards that just hit the market and every eternal format is continuously warped around the chase mythics/rares from the latest sets. Genuinely no regrets that I got out when I did.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Fair. Sadly I can't afford to buy any cards to sell out. So I guess I was never in?

[@ChibiRuah]

they idea of making a compliment sandwich for some reason made me think of mtgremy "which card i love best" video where he ends with a random thing he "hates". Outside of that, i feel the struggle in this video not to just make it "new set bad" but i kind of agree with most of the points on big miss steps by Wotc. It does feel like part of the reason people dont play modern is the modern set is design for Commander. That sort of make sense in short term business, but i feel long term is worse (but i dont work in running big TCGS)

[@RedBobcatGames]

I do get the odd "Why are all of your videos negative" comments. But I mean... look at what I'm working with, you know?

[@simplexeon]

It's really such a shame that the prices are so high and that there aren't precon Modern decks. Modern-wise: The set is REALLY good, for the most part. Rather than just pushing power levels for existing decks, most of the "pushed" cards have a lot of deckbuilding restrictions that make it difficult to put them in decks that were already at the top of the metagame. This means that it's mostly just pushing decks that weren't powerful enough to compete towards becoming powerful enough to compete. There are a handful of cards that stand out as being particularly strong, but those are also in new-ish archetypes that will likely change as people change their sideboards accordingly. ie, lots of people are talking about Nadu and storm being busted, but they both have lots of ways to interact with them. It just needs time until players figure out which interaction is good in the metagame. Personally, I have my own gripes about the set because Lantern Control basically got nothing and there's a lot more hate for it, but then again it's a strategy WotC deliberately avoids pushing because of how slow it is (although imagine if they just made a card or two to speed it up, since they can do that). This is also the BEST place they could do modern precons. If they still don't want to print fetches into precons, that's fine since there are so many hate pieces for non-basic lands now that indirectly buff basics. Honestly surprised they didn't do precons of something like Affinity, Soul Sisters, Merfolk, and Storm since those really stand out as some of the big focuses for the set.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, the barrier to entry created but not making precons for the format is enough to drive me (and seemingly) many others away from even trying to enter the format

[@johanandersson8252]

You forgot the salt for the sandwich 🥪

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh I don't know. Feels like there was plenty of salt in this video!

[@johanandersson8252]

@@RedBobcatGames🤭

[@unstable7505]

Wrenn binds with treefolk! That's like her whole thing. So before Wrenn met Six in Kessig, Six WAS a treefolk, and this is what that card is representing. Sure, when Wrenn left, Six became a big tree, but that is not what is being shown. So, maybe retract that whole "their jokes aren't even lore accurate" point...

[@RedBobcatGames]

If I'm wrong I'll... I guess print a retraction (I don't honestly know what that would look like). But I read that story, and I read where she met Seven who was also a tree. So what makes you say that Wrenn binds with Treefolk? Because that's not what happens in the story I linked. She specifically talks about coming to Kessig because of how good the trees are.

[@maidenless_tarnished]

I just built a Shilgengar deck and indeed needed to look up what finality counters actually do. Wanted to make sure I could flicker/blink a creature to remove the counter and you can since the counter only cares if the creature dies. Hopefully that doesn't come up in games to where I have to pull out my phone to show the ruling

[@RedBobcatGames]

Some people have left comments saying that any players who run these cards will be enfranchised enough to just know what they do. Glad to see I'm not alone

[@maidenless_tarnished]

@@RedBobcatGames I will say I had a vague idea cause of Isareth the Awakener using corpse counters and I remembered they were similar, but finality counters are significantly more busted with how easy it is to get rid of them

[@atticratz6128]

@@maidenless_tarnished Are people able to run many effects to get rid of the counters? Solemnity and something else? I really like that finality counters communicate that if a creature is blinked, it comes back to the battlefield without the exile clause. The old "if this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead" text was super confusing in that a blink effect returns the creature to the battlefield for you permanently... even though it's leaving the battlefield with that text on it. Players have more options to get rid of finality counters, but the counters also are a better representation of how the rules play out for these "temporary recursion" abilities in my opinion. I like lower power and am a newer player, so I am with you on complexity creep.

[@maidenless_tarnished]

@@atticratz6128 I found a bunch of cards in orzhov that just remove counters from any permanent or moves them around. Stuff like power conduit and nesting grounds

[@SolarArkon]

It's absolutely insane that WoTC don't print pre-constructed decks for formats other than commander, absolutely baffling. Magic the Gatherings various formats are one of it's greatest strengths, and as much as I love commander, I would like to get into other formats but they are just inaccessible. The only way I've been able to experience them is playing via Tabletop sim

[@RedBobcatGames]

Ahh but they don't print decks because nobody plays them you see. And nobody plays them because they don't print decks. And they don't print decks because nobody plays them. And nobody plays them because they don't print decks etc etc etc

[@barbedwire9975]

It’s also completely ludicrous to say that modern horizons 3 would not have sold well without the commander decks. Modern horizons 2 when it came out was the highest selling set of all time. And you wanna know why? Because the set already contained cards which were good for commander so commander players bought the set even without modern being a factor.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Good point

[@nicolasfurger1032]

I loved the meta references until I saw this video and realised how many there were.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh see, now I don't want to ruin it for anyone! Don't let me drag you down! I'm a misery haha!

[@nicolasfurger1032]

@@RedBobcatGames just soooooo many! Too many!

[@RedBobcatGames]

Sorry!

[@nicolasfurger1032]

@@RedBobcatGames I’m not mad. I’m educated

[@camoking3609]

The thing i hate most about WotC is that they can properly address the problem but then find an awkward workaround when they have the power to completely eliminate the problem entirely The commanderization of the game is a problem that THEY created, and one THEY can fix, but they don't, i can't imagine why it would be any less profitable for them to do so

[@RedBobcatGames]

Because Hasbro has mandated short term profits above everything else. You and I are thinking of the long term health of the game. They're thinking about their next quarterly review

[@camoking3609]

@RedBobcatGames yeah that sounds about right Who's cares about story or product quality or the inaccessibility of certain formats to all those without an arm and a leg to spare, big daddy hasbro wants their numbers to go up, and up they shall go until the game dies or the sun blows out, Honestly I like alot of the new MH3 cards, but everything around the set itself is just upsetting

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'm still annoyed about all those people that fired at Christmas

[@thestarscape2446]

Mr. Red please consider: they did you the favour of not letting you start playing modern by not making pre constructed modern decks. they’ve saved you so much trouble.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Well, that is potentially true. But I don't get to know either way because apparently I'm too poor to play

[@CBuiscuit]

On the talk of modern precons: MTG has the reserve list- meant to protect the secondary market. Now I'm not sure if that's what's going on but it wouldn't surprise me if that's why they didn't make modern decks. Now idk exactly how to build modern but let's just say Ocelot Pride. Going for $35 now. In a modern precon there's 4 copies, making the first 4 cards of the deck $140. Yea it wouldn't cost them anything extra but it would affect the individual value of the card. Why do they care what cards will be worth after they sell the set to stores? Not like it makes them more money. I don't understand it either.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Well, basically if they don't look after the secondary market then a portion of the buyers who only open packs to resell cards will be unhappy, as they won't be able to turn as much of a profit doing it. Same reason they changed how Secret Lairs work. It's scalper support

[@oreofudgeman]

The set seems to be at a reasonable power level with an expected number of stand-out cards. Its created new modern decks that arent unreasonably powerful and that the meta will adjust around. Outside of a few cards, it seems to not have affected legacy too much.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Fair enough

[@chasetheswift]

As someone who has played Pioneer and Modern with regularity in the past. I don't think accessable precons will boost Modern in any real way. I think some competative players who hadn't given it a chance yet might have be won over but most players would still play commander anyway. Commander for most people is basically a boardgame. Its 4+ people chilling out, at a table, with beers and pizza. It basically flows like a game of risk or monopoly. Modern is like a street fighter arcade cabinet. Knives out and super strict with the most optimized and ruthless plays. I think wizards did it best here. Made a product that targets a specific audience but also enables the wider magic audience a route to engage the product.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Interesting thoughts. I've not read a huge amount of praise for the set in the comments so I'm glad you commented. Thank you

[@chasetheswift]

@@RedBobcatGames oh yeah I love the set from a pack opening, card mechanic, and constructed point of view. I hate it from a price point and Prerelease was super lumpy in balance lol. I have yet to draft it yet though.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Fair. I've still not opened any because of the price quite frankly haha

[@chasetheswift]

@@RedBobcatGames and I support that decision. I opened far less of this set because of price. I played a couple Prereleases and got the bundle. The LGS I go to will let you choose what packs you want for event prizes, based off of $5 packs. So if I won two $5 packs, I'll get a $10 MH3 pack instead.

[@RedBobcatGames]

That's something. And from what I can tell the packs do hold value. Probably because of how pushed some of the power creep is

[@noitsjustcody]

Modern is a "non-rotating format" they said.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Correct use of the quotes there haha

[@ravenjoker254]

Hey now, the product is for everyone! Just look what the new powerful commons are doing to Pauper! MH3 doesn't artificially rotate just Modern!

[@RedBobcatGames]

Haha! Yeah, every format is ruined! Yay!

[@burntowl2594]

I'm a bit confused as to why designing around arena is such a big deal. It seems like a reasonable element of a coordinated design team, and that w/out it there would be significantly more work for the programmers for not signficant gains. the way they worded it sounded less like complete redesigns and more like rewordings.

[@RedBobcatGames]

The issue is we've been seeing complextity creep in the game for a long time. They've recently removed the words "The Battlefield" from "Enter The Battlefield" effects just so they can cram more words onto cards. In this video I also touched on the fact that reminder text is now being left off of keywords. These aren't issues in a digital client, because the computer will do the work for you. And while Magic has a digital client, it isn't a digital game. Arena provides direct access to the players for WotC, and it would appear it's started to skew their perception of the game and the way it's played. Deisigning physical game pieces without consideration for physical game play is going to lead to a worse experience over all. Does the Arena team getting a say in how cards are designed end the world? No. Does it make a game I enjoy worse? Yes, I believe we've been seeing evidence of that for some time

[@davidstreicher1103]

17:10 Wait. Wait, wait WAIT. Is THIS why Nadu is worded like that?!?!?!

[@RedBobcatGames]

Hard to say what's going on over there at this point to be honest. But I suspect probably yes by the sounds of it. Not just this card, but all cards seem to be designed for Arena now

[@Mwarrior1991]

putting "drill bit" and "ancient grudge" as examples of past humor that was "subtle" is... really ironic

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh it's references all the way down with me

[@GreatUncleJulio]

Literally agree with you on everything but the Grumpy section for the most part, which I feel is just a symptom of being clinically British, hope for a speedy recovery.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Haha, thank you

[@Dimitar_Tsanev]

Maro's explanation of why they're not printing modern precons for this supposedly modern set makes the issue even more infuriating because as far as I'm aware, Wizards don't or even can't officially acknowledge the existence of the secondary market. Meaning that as far as they're concerned such a thing doesn't exist. Therefore, having it being the determining factor for the quantities in which certain cards are printed or even whether they get printed at all is atrocious. What he's saying is that the total secondary market value of the cards in a somewhat competitively viable deck is way higher than what they could reasonably ask of people to pay for a modern precon deck. But this should not matter at all. They shouldn't care about the secondary market prices and in addition to that, as you said, they can influence these prices by printing more of the more expensive cards. But, as we all know, other than their official pandering to the secondary market in the form of the reserved list, they like to use other tools for keeping some of their more business oriented customers buying, such as restricting the quantities of some cards, artificially raising their value, thus helping some people make some bucks. Anyway, my point is that such an explanation from Mr. Rosewater is actually an insult to magic players.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Pretty much. About half way through the script I wondered if saying "the set is a mess" was a bit harsh. But by the end, no. It's pretty messing

[@deaderror3660]

Wait that's the hat thing? I always assumed it was supposed to mimic Emracool

[@RedBobcatGames]

Well, in Eldritch Moon it was smartly used as the set symbol to do both. But Lili's not even in this set so who knows what's going on

[@XenithShadow]

I have a feeling that finality counters are desidious or evergreen now, and since modern masters is not an introductory set (core set ect), they are under no obligation to explain what desidous mechanics do. Also the cards probably didnt have enough space. I do agree that not having modern decks printed with the horizons set is kinda weird, but due to the massive over inflation in modren deck prices its not economical to print modern decks. While they still had msrp they tehcnically could have done it, but the distributors and store would just mark the price of the decks up anyway. Even now its literally impossible for them to release a fairly priced modern deck cause if its as cheap as people want no one can actually buy it as store owners would just buy all the stock themselves and resell on secondary market.

[@RedBobcatGames]

To your first point, I agree but that's an issue. Complexity creep is getting worse. To your second, also yes. But then they should just keep printing them till that stops happening

[@TheMercurialAlchemist]

I love Commander Legends 3, everyone absolutely loves power creeping eternal formats so hard that they're no longer truly eternal, best set ever!

[@RedBobcatGames]

My favourite part is how I can't afford to play it! It's soo cool that price gets to creep just like power and complexity!

[@TheMercurialAlchemist]

@@RedBobcatGames I know, right!? WoTC really understands their player base so well, I don't know about you, but I love getting the opportunity to choose to eat or skip a meal or two or three to buy a single card I'd like.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Haha, it's great!

[@Whitewing89]

It's good to see the people who design this game treat it as a joke.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, now I admit if they are going to do that then a Modern Horizons set is the best place for it. BUT, it feels a bit much what with all the joke cards in every single set back to back

[@MichaelBrandon-cp8jq]

I recall a Modern Event Deck around the early-ish 2010s that I don't think sold too well, especially as it was a hefty price for a deck by then-standards. I wonder if that influenced the decision there. Also... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've noticed a suspicious lack of Challenge Decks lately, like the Standard or Pioneer ones. I'm wondering if they didn't sell well, because they're so all-in on Commander that they seem to have forgotten other products. No mention of any new Starter Commander decks. Yaknow, the cheaper ones, to make commander more accessible for new players who don't want to drop £40 on a game they might not even end up liking? We just gonna forget that one as well?

[@RedBobcatGames]

I suspect it's just a case of them seeing that because they can get away with charging more for high end premium sets, that's all they want to make now

[@ruttokyrpa3472]

My memories on fun in magic the gathering do not consist of joke cards that were designed to be funny. Just last week in a match my friend was beating me with lizards while I was struggling to stay alive by drinking from my magical fountain, that was fun as hell and didn't need cards that wotc designed to be funny. If I wanted to play cards like Loan Shark I would buy a box of munchkin. Mark Rosewater has openly for decades wanted to push silver-bordered humor and mechanics in to black-border magic, completely ignoring the feedback from the playerbase and this is the result.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Munchkin's actually a really good example of what Magic's becoming, you're right

[@wesleymclain9146]

"This set is for everyone." No. It's not for Standard, Pioneer, Alchemy, or Explorer. I only track what the first 3 of these are and only half care about the first 2. I might play modern if people played modern. More people would play modern if it was accessible. Commander was accessible from the get go because you could throw any 100 cards together.

[@RedBobcatGames]

100%

[@user-co6ww2cm9k]

It's my favorite set from the last few years, but people will always find a reason to complain! Just don't forget to have fun

[@RedBobcatGames]

Very wise words!

[@davidbrasher3595]

I was excited to buy some Modern Horizons 3 cards because of the Eldrazi. But then I found out that packs cost two or three times as much as normal. So I did not buy any.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, which is crazy. They may make more per pack, but they'll sell less of them because people can't afford to get started. Surely a lot from a few players is less than a little from lots more?

[@schumerus6786]

Well it depends I think. Yes it ruins Modern if cards like Ragavan are printed. But it’s great if it gives underpowered or decks that need 1-2 more support cards what they need to shine EDIT: Yes, they should have printed Modern decks… Even if it’s the “cheapest” and without the fetches (because they wouldn’t print those)

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah. Though I honestly think they should. Because as it stands they won't get any money out of me at all, because I just won't buy anything

[@danih.5675]

The "all cards are juiced so everyone is playing them" idea is the most cancerous game design philosophy for card games. Its why yugioh is the way it is. If you want to play those types of cards, do legacy, but its ruining everygreen formats like commander and modern. My buddy and i both agree that we had way more fun pre 2016 playing commander than using any of the new cards because they arent just good, they just win if you dont have removal. There is no strategy anymore, its just who draws there bomb before the opponent or who has more removal in hand. Its a shame to see the game designers using the excuse "more fun" when the real motivator is obviously "more packs sold" and "more money for wizards. Nothing is fun about being forced to buy new cards to keep your deck relevant. Thats what standard is for

[@RedBobcatGames]

One of the reasons why I wasn't keen on Play Boosters having more rares of mythics in them

[@axelostlund2348]

Grave Bramble is a reference to Plants Vs Zombies.

[@RedBobcatGames]

It is, but if you didn't know that you may not realize it. I'm not sure I can say the same for Meddling Youths or some other of these new cards

[@thecrimsonfkr2818]

Compliment sandwich... MH3 has some nice reprints. It's a freaking commander set! The jokes in the set are nice. Did I do it right?

[@RedBobcatGames]

Sort of. I think you're meant to rant about Six being a tree for 10 minutes in there somewhere aswell

[@dilfappreciator2697]

I played sealed at a pre-release for MH3, and even though it was fun and it gave me one of my new favorite cards: Detective's Phoenix, I feel like I've been slapped in the face with the whooping $75 I had to pay for the pre-release. Especially since previous prereleases were $45-$50. It turns me off from playing draft and makes me feel like any future modern products are too expensive for me just due to the crazy price point of the set

[@dilfappreciator2697]

It was also my first ever pre-release, so it also just turns me off from ever wanting to do one again

[@RedBobcatGames]

That's a shame. Pre-release is one of the most fun formats you can play in my opinion. I just like getting a dice and date stamped in the box to be honest!

[@xaropevic7918]

Two things I want to say: About the lhurgoyf precon, or the precons in general, they were supposed to be themed around remarkable moments in modern (eldrazi winter and jund midrange are the ones I remember) and lhurgoyf tribal just doesn't represent well jund midrange ? Because tarmogoyf was there just because it happened to be a good creature, so jund needed to represent every good card there somewhat equally (lilliana, deathrite shaman, tarmogoyf) or do the philosophy of jund'em out by playing bodies that drain resources. Being jund also was disrespect to goyfs imo, as pre mh3 there was better support in sultai due to blue being good at self mill, whule red was forced at giving support by making more red goyfs Lastly, another problem I have but this time around with MHs sets in general, is as a mostly standard/pioneer player (never got into modern due to MH power creeping it), is that they 1. Killed core sets and 2. Took away cards and design space from standard (similar problem that you have with alchemy cards) , that wasn't that big of a deal on MH1 and MH2 to me but mainly Ajani, nacatl pariah (for my azorius cont...cats typal deck I mean) and Phlage I would love in standard, obviously nerfed down to standard power level in ajani's case

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, you make some good points. I guess the whole Gofy deck is themed around the hype for Tarmogofy. But then that's just even wilder that the card doesn't feature! Madness!

[@seanholley1025]

Good video, though I will point out that MTGO and Arena have ALWAYS had an influence in card design. If you listen to MaRo's podcast, and even some design articles mention it, the MTGO and Arena Teams always get a pass at the cards to make sure they can be properly replicated in digital. They will always try to tweak cards to make them work but still keep the idea of the card intact, otherwise you get cards like Mind Goblin which has two completely different effects in paper vs digital.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Sure, but that sounds to me like they need to support the arena developers more. If they don't have the time to program the cards correctly, maybe hire more people? Surely it's making enough money. In fact I know it is, I read how much the Hasbro Suits get paid when they release their investor reports

[@bananabeam5602]

You make a great point when talking about price. I love playing commander because i can build somewhat powerfull/expensive decks and just proxie them. And if my playgroup won't let me. I just play a cheaper deck. But modern is a competitive format where proxies are not allowed and the avrg price of decks are much higher

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah. Well, I say "Yeah" but I don't actually know because I don't own a deck. I can't afford to play Modern!

[@ralphieboy97]

I'm just glad I've fallen out of Commander a bit and leaned into Pioneer. I wanted that competitive gameplay without selling my kidney for Modern and Standard that rotate every 3 years now...

[@RedBobcatGames]

I seem to remember they announced they were doing a Pioneer set. Did that happen already, or is that still coming this year?

[@ralphieboy97]

@@RedBobcatGames to my knowledge it was Maro saying it's closer to "it isn't out of the realm of possibilities in the future" but by that time I'll jump onto (more than likely) the next Format they introduce that will (more than likely) start from Dom U to current so they leave out Triomes. Probably won't announce that until 2028/29 tho so we got some time lol. I'm just following the patterns tho, seems like every decade has a new format, Vintage/Legacy/Pauper start in 93, Modern is 03, Pioneer is 13, [Cool new catchy format name] must be 23 right?

[@RedBobcatGames]

That's interesting. I guess we'll see in time, but I suspect it's coming