A Pastoral Response to Theonomy | Theocast

[@christophercatiller2422]

Thank you guys for this discussion. I admit, over the last couple years, I've been caught up in the idea that Christians and the church must "save America" unknowingly letting that take precedence over God's kingdom. It's exhausting bearing that burden, and I confess I find myself falling into despair far too often. Hearing you all flesh out what Jesus called Christians and the institution of the Church to be in the world is very refreshing.

[@instepbydantebrown]

@christophercatiller Agreed!

[@sirvicemanone]

This whole conversation is nuts. What is the point ? They talk in circles. They just don't make any sense or have any scriptural basis. They are "other worldly" sure....I'm just not sure what "world" . I get a headache listening to this. I'm going to go out on a limb here and stronlgly suggest reading your own Bible as a much more useful way to use your time than listening to these fellows talk.👍🙌🙏

[@cranmer1959]

@@sirvicemanone When ministers go out of their way to appease the wicked instead of warning them of the wrath to come, you can immediately tell that their focus is the pragmatism of the church growth movement, not biblical exposition. They keep focusing on the Reader's Digest Version instead of preaching the whole counsel of God.

[@cranmer1959]

Yah, just keep to yourself and keep your beliefs to yourself. And so should your church. That way no one gets offended by the cross.

[@JW-tg1nn]

​@@cranmer1959nowhere in the podcast do they say we should "keep it to ourselves", in fact they say the opposite. A weird thing to say about two guys who have a podcast in which they constantly talk about the Gospel.

[@shawnharrison4994]

Excellent response, Jon and Justin. Again, thank you for this!

[@rustenharris10]

It seems like you could see the LCBF as saying exactly what theonomy argues. That even the applications of natural law must be "following the general rules of the word which must always be observed".... no one is arguing that scripture's sufficency for all spheres of life would require it to be exhaustive for all spheres of life. Sufficiency is limited not by "arena" but by the goal of "training in righteousness" and being equipped for "every good work" which has applications for EVERY arena of life (medicine, politics etc) 2 Timothy 3:16

[@bretlynn]

thank God we have modern pastors like this around to undo 2000 years of Church history

[@JW-tg1nn]

@@bretlynn tell me you don't understand church history without telling me you don't understand church history.

[@forresterj]

We are indeed too earth bound. I love the intro to John Owen's book mortification of the flesh. He says that the gospel is indeed a gospel of patience, quoting romans 9. God, for the sake of the redeemed, endures the wicked. We likewise, are called to endure in the gospel, not losing faith in the finished work of Christ.

[@SilversRayleigh03]

This is very helpful

[@gentledove6804]

As a post-millennial, covenantal, theonomic, reformed Baptist sister in Christ Jesus, I can see some areas where the theonomists and reformed Baptists coming from your perspective, are talking past each other. The following are some things that the Bible teaches that you are not keeping in mind in your critique of theonomy. 1) the law of God, and the love of God, are not at odds with one another. The law word of God explains to us how to love one another, how to love God, and what love is. 2) God created the entire world and owns it and owns everybody in it. He rules over all. We are all ,saved or not, accountable to him. He instituted three covenantal human institutions: family, church and state (or civil government). God delineate the boundaries and jurisdictions of these institutions. 3) the judicial law of Moses, explains how and gives examples of how the moral law contained in the 10 Commandments are to be applied in the every day life of God’s covenant people. Therefore, the judicial law of Moses is properly categorized as moral, not positive. 4) old testament Israel was not merely an example or type of Christ’s church, but also an example and type of institutional family, institutional church and institutional civil government under God. 5) the kingdom of God from heaven, as Jesus Christ taught, is not solely the institutional church. The kingdom of God, according to Jesus is the whole world. And all the nations to the ends of the Earth belong to Jesus as his inheritance. (Matt. 13; Ps. 2) christians receive this inheritance with Christ in him. Believers in Christ are co-heirs with him. 6) the New Testament is full of references to Christians, in Christ, as His body on earth, in their various capacities and diverse talents, gifts and service to Christ, conquering and overcoming, and pulling down strongholds, principalities, even the very gates of hell. Very saddened by your characterization of persecution, suffering and death is the sum total of what we can expect in the New Testament era since the advent of the Word of God made flesh. Edited to add: to those who are interested, these are common objections to theonomy that have been expressed before, and have been answered by theonomists in many books., etc. Unfortunately, the answers of theonomists to these objections and concerns have not been dealt with in these two video presentations.

[@JW-tg1nn]

These brothers are correct. Your view misses the entire point of the Gospel.

[@glenhowell6909]

Also, there is WHAT theonomy is and what people say it is. All too often not the same. Theonomy is simply God's law. Oh how I love your law.

[@JW-tg1nn]

@@glenhowell6909 Theonomists can't seem to agree on what Theonomy is, so you might be able to forgive the confusion for the rest of us. I've heard/seen Theonomists argue in favor of legislating the first table of the 10 commandments, enforcing the death penalty for things like adultery and homosexuality, and insisting that the civil law of Moses still applies to Christians today.

[@glenhowell6909]

@JW-tg1nn What is your arguement against it?

[@JW-tg1nn]

@@glenhowell6909 against what, specifically?

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

At about 28:00 Jon makes the point that I've been concerned with. We specifically don't see the New Testament church teaching that the government needs to be fundamentally transformed. Theonomists speak of spreading the gospel, but it comes across as a means to accomplishing a greater goal of Christianizing all governments. In that case, people become a means to that end, which is not supported by Scripture. If this transformation of governments is not what theonomists mean to emphasize, they need to adjust their marketing techniques. Here in the 21st Century, we read "nations" and tend to think "nation-states", with all the associated civil governmental components. But is that how the Bible uses the term? In Matthew 28, "nations" simply seems to mean "people". The activities of the First Century church support this understanding. Even when Paul has the opportunity to proclaim Christ in his appeal to Caesar, he doesn't speak of altering Roman civil government, but of reaching people with the good news of Christ.

[@andrewmattiewalter]

Amen!

[@glenhowell6909]

So governments aren't to submit to the Scripture?

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

@@glenhowell6909 Your question reveals a common flaw in this discussion. Governments are not people, and thus, cannot submit. Governments are composed of people. Perhaps a more accurate question would be, “Should people submit to God?” The answer is no one can, which is why Christ died for sinners; none of us can submit. We need the mercy and grace of God found in Christ.

[@akadwriter]

​@@TheMaineSurveyor Amen, AMEN, AMEN!!

[@JW-tg1nn]

​@@TheMaineSurveyorthis.

[@coyotebuttons]

Very charitable and humble conversation here. Would love to see you guys talk with Doug Wilson, or someone, as there are legitimate biblical answers that I’ve heard to most of your counterpoints in this video.

[@AnglicanCuriosity]

I truly enjoyed this.

[@glenhowell6909]

Do you believe Gen 9:6,7 should be carried out by civil government?

[@glenhowell6909]

Nobody has responded to my question about Gen 9:6,7.

[@rustenharris10]

I'm trying to be a little less flying off the handlebars with this discussion. Here are some more honest questions. Why do you quote the confession about the Bible's sufficiency for salvation, faith, and life. And then limit "life" to contrived understanding of "our Christian life in the Church". The reason the confession says salvation, faith, and life. Is because 2 Timothy 3:14-17 says But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you *wise for salvation* through *faith in Christ Jesus.* All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for *training in righteousness,* that the man of God may be complete, *equipped for every good work."* If you are consistent in your thinking here, are you not also denying that scripture is sufficient for *training in righteousness* to be equipped for *every good work?* Or are you saying every good work only pertains to things done *in the church* and that the training in *righteousness* does not apply to learning principles required for just governance or just medical procedures for instance? Why have you chosen to limit *life* to only *life in the church?*

[@blank-964]

Enjoyed this episode

[@1689LBC]

The issue with Postmillenial theonomists is that they interpret the gospel, and their role in it, to mean that righteousness will be fully established on the earth and the church picks up where Jesus left off. They fail to see the already-not yet paradigm of Christs work and the covenant of works being given to the 2 Adams only and not to every created man. Man is either in Adam or in Christ and either fallen or righteous. They miss this and also miss the law/gospel distinction because they try to work for what Christ has already accomplished. Christ will establish righteousness in the whole earth when He determines to do so, until the righteous and unrighteous live together.

[@instepbydantebrown]

@nicholasmata Right! Theonomy's approach seems to incorrectly assume that Christians are the firstfruits of the new creation. However, the Holy Spirit serves as the firstfruit or downpayment WITHIN us. Our role is not to bring about the new creation(thru gov't) but to live PROPHETICALLY in anticipation of it, characterized by personal sanctification. Constructing the New Jerusalem here on Earth is not possible as its destined arrival is from above. The name of God is blasphemed amongst the Gentiles not because we don't legislate God-fearing laws, but because we Christians live hypocritical lives (Romans 2).

[@sheliabryant3997]

@1689. 🌈🌈🌈

[@joelsaint3185]

I'm a pastor, and a theonomist. I would say (and I think Jon and Justin would agree, if I understand them) that the Law of God still applies. That is, Christ did not die so that I can now commit adultery, or worship graven images. But I'm quite sure we strongly disagree on the response to this question (or these questions): Is Christ King of Kings (including civil magistrates) now, in 2023? Is the civil magistrate responsible to obey Christ in his particular office? I think J & J would answer with a qualified "no" to the first question, and an unqualified "no" on the second. I will submit that John the Baptist would disagree with them both: "But Herod the tetrarch, being rebuked by him concerning Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done, also added this, above all, that he shut John up in prison." Luke 3: 19, 20. Apparently the Law of God applied to Herod. He was responsible to bow to Christ in all of his life, both public and private. This is applicable to all civil magistrates: Then and now.

[@manutdfan348]

You're appealing to the moral law here, right? Should Ted Cruz craft a bill banning mix fabric?

[@joelsaint3185]

@@manutdfan348 Every crime is a sin, but not every sin is a crime. Therefore, no criminalizing mixed fabric, as not even Moses did that. The scriptures address both sins and crimes, and they are not always the same. In the meantime, are you OK with John the Baptist applying God's Law to Herod? Or, should John have just left Herod alone?

[@manutdfan348]

​@joelsaint3185 I think that John the Baptist lived prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord. He lived in Israel within a Theocracy. The magistrate (the King) was supposed to submit to the Law of God (Deutronomy 17 lays out the kings obligation). So I would think John views Herod to the same standards as Israel's kings. Because Rome was placed as Israel's yoke by God. John lived in a Theocracy. America or any gentile nation is not Israel. I would argue that the Law and God's Word is sufficient for the purpose it's intended by God. To lead us to salvation in Christ through the special revelation. I think the guys on this podcast argue for that point really well. (I will find the timeline to tag the minute).

[@joelsaint3185]

@@manutdfan348 You are correct that "John views Herod to the same standards as Israel's kings." That is the eternal Law-Word of God. Do you somehow believe that civil magistrates are exempt from obeying the Law-Word of God because Christ died and rose again, thereby having even less authority than prior? That should be an easy answer. Jesus Christ is, right now, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He has all authority in heaven and in earth. All authority. There is not a magistrate anywhere that gets a pass. Civil magistrates everywhere are responsible to bow to Christ. That included Herod in his day, and all magistrates since, in all times and all places in all nations. Which only makes sense if Christ is King of kings. Which He is.

[@interestedmeow]

Technically JtB was holding Herod to the Law as a individual Jew. Not as a magistrate, civil authority or even as a Gentile. If you are arguing that magistrates should receive salvation from Christ as individuals, enter the Kingdom and go about every aspect of their lives filled with the Holy Spirit….there is no issue. If however, you are demanding that a unregenerate Gentile magistrate bend the knee to Christ by upholding the entire Law (which he’d have to do if he was going to be obedient, yes including ceremonial laws) then yes, that’s a huge problem.

[@mrpadillaofficial]

We should pray that our leaders would rule with justice and equity and compassion, and everything else ACCORDING TO WHAT STANDARD?

[@THEOCAST]

Natural law. I’m sure this isn’t the first time you have heard or engaged in this. The same law God judges all men by in Romans 1

[@mrpadillaofficial]

@@THEOCAST Ok good, we’re all using a standard just not exactly the same one, from what I understand. It’s good to know.

[@smt0202]

​@@THEOCAST what is natural law based on? Who's natural law? I was born in the Soviet Union where in their mind the Communists applied Natural Law.

[@1Whipperin]

​@Theocast Natural law based in human reason is inherently flawed and tainted by sin, rendering any natural law derived from it as insufficient and unreliable for governing any aspects of life. God's law as revealed in the Bible is the only true and objective moral standard, providing clear and unchanging guidance for individuals and society. God's law reflects His perfect and holy character and represents the ultimate source of moral truth and righteousness. Human reason, being limited and fallible, is prone to subjective interpretations, moral relativism, and the influence of sinful inclinations. Relying solely on human reason can lead to distorted moral judgments and a departure from God's absolute standards. Obedience to God's law is essential for personal and societal righteousness, the flourishing of society, and alignment with God's intended purposes for humanity.

[@smt0202]

@@THEOCAST brother, I am curious to hear your response to better understand your position. When you stop replying, I'm not sure how to interpret that

[@jasoncorkran6169]

Another great episode from you guys on this topic. I'm glad y'all brought up the Great Commission and how it is being reinterpreted by theonomists. I like turning to Revelation 5:9-10 in those discussions. Jesus saved men from/out of all nations, and made us into a kingdom. He did not save the nations themselves. It is ironic that theonomists claim to be Calvinists, but then interpret "nations" universally. The context of the great commission is so clear- the disciples were to go outside of Israel. It had nothing to do with discipling national entities. I'm also glad y'all brought up 1 Corinthians 5. God has reserved the judgment of those outside the church for Himself. Even withing the church, the most we are to do is cast out the apostates. Such clear and indisputable passages absolutely crush theonomy. What I've found when bringing up such passages, is that the theonomists immediately start dealing in strawman fallacies: "oh you just hate the law of God, oh you're just a pessimist, oh you're an antinomian liberal!" And so on. I truly hope that theonomy is a fad that dies as quickly as it was formed.

[@glenhowell6909]

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations...

[@glenhowell6909]

God's law will never die.

[@oracleoftroy]

_"It is ironic that theonomists claim to be Calvinists, but then interpret "nations" universally. The context of the great commission is so clear- the disciples were to go outside of Israel. It had nothing to do with discipling national entities."_ This chain of reasoning really could use some clean up and a very carefully laid out argument. _"...but then interpret "nations" universally."_ I don't think you are saying that some nationalities are beneath the hearing of the gospel, yet you also seem to deny the Calvinist and Theonomic claim that the gospel goes out to all nations. I'm not sure how you are trying to skate this line. I'm guessing the implied racism is an accident of trying to take a jab at Calvinism, but it isn't that clear what you are really saying. Calvinists don't claim "there are no universal statements in the Bible" so this just doesn't work as a critique, and becomes especially awkward as you make it at the expense of implying not all nations ought to be given the gospel. _"...the disciples were to go outside of [a national entity]. It had nothing to do with discipling national entities."_ By pointing to Israel, you betray the premise that it was a national entity. And as pointed out, the great commission specifically mentions nations "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations." Mt 28: 18ff And Jesus came and said to them, “ *All authority* in heaven *and on earth* has been given to *me.* Go therefore and *make disciples of all nations,* baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, *teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” "All authority", not a narrow slice of spiritualized authority that secularized Christians in the West allow Christ to have. "On earth", not just a spiritualized authority that secularized Christians in the West allow Christ to have while their societies do whatever seems right in their own eyes. "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Not just the cherry picked commandments that secularized Christians in the West happen to like while ignoring those that don't fit with Western ideals. So much of the anti-Theonomic rhetoric reads like an excuse to be disobedient to God and do whatever seems right in their own eyes, and I want to encourage you and others on that side to be much more careful communicating what it is exactly that you don't like about the Theonomist side and their love for God's law.

[@jasoncorkran6169]

@@oracleoftroy i think you have fundamentally misunderstood just about everything I have said. I never remotely suggested that we shouldn't go to all nations, nor did I ever even imply that we should disobey the great commission. We simply distinguish between God's elect who are among all nations, and national entities themselves. This distinction comes from scripture- see Rev 5:9-10. Christ purchased men "from" or "out of" all nations. Yes we take the gospel to all nations, but we take the gospel for the sake of the elect whom God has purchased. You are also incorrect to conflate Israel with the nations. It is God's holy nation, the church, which inherits the continuity of Israel's place in history. America is not Israel. China is not Israel. Russia is not Israel. Even today's Israel is not Israel. It is the kingdom of God- the covenant community of the elect "From" or "out of" all nations, who are Israel.

[@oracleoftroy]

@@jasoncorkran6169 I think you have misunderstood what I said. You were not careful with your wording, and my presumption was that you would not like people to reach the implications your claims led to. That seems to be true based on your reply. But your lack of care continues when you impute that I conflate 'Israel' and 'The nations'. My point is that Israel _is_ a nation. It isn't _all_ the nations, so that objection is silly. But when scripture has us going to other nations with Israel as a reference point, it is likewise silly of you to ignore that or pretend that Israel is magically different. All authority on heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus, not just heaven and maybe one historic nation. Most of the rest of your post doesn't address anything particular about my position or theonomy, so I'm not following what reason you bring them up. Yes, God purchased people from every nation, "and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, *and they shall reign on the earth* ". Oh wait, was I not supposed to read your verses? Revelation knows that God's plan isn't just for heaven, but impacts earth as well. This isn't just some gnostic spiritualized kingdom that has no impact on the lives of people here in this life. The gospel is powerful to change hearts and minds. It doesn't just effect how we live on Sunday, but every other day of the week as well. It transforms all of our life: how we love our families, our neighbors, and our communities, how we work at home, in the office, at school, and anywhere else, and how we rule our homes, out communities and our cities, counties and nations. All authority on heaven and earth belongs to Jesus. And all of the law teaches us how to love God and our neighbor. Please be more careful not to treat God's law as if it is evil and opposed to God's will. We should have as high a view of the law of God as Jesus and the apostles and the rest of God's word does.

[@greghurt1857]

Make disciples of all nations, not make nation disciples.

[@andrewmjohnson]

🎯🎯🎯

[@akadwriter]

​​@ThomasCranmer1959Y ou make a subtle but important error. Gideon didn't defeat anyone. God did. That's why God made him use such a small force. The victory belongs to the LORD...ALWAYS! Edit: Furthermore, God gave a specific command to Gideon! We can't make a one to one comparison to our lives because God is not speaking directly to us like Gideon. He speaks through the WORD, and in HIS WORD, He does give specific mandates for the Church and NT believers, none of which include building christian political entities!!

[@bretlynn]

"we don't misrepresent theonomists' *immediately begins to misrepresent theonomists*

[@JW-tg1nn]

How?

[@JW-tg1nn]

The whole theonomic position seems to lack grace. Thank you for this episode.

[@glenhowell6909]

1. God is king. 2. God has a kingdom. 3. The kingdom has law.

[@JW-tg1nn]

@glenhowell6909 1. Yes He is. 2. True and it's not of this world. 3. Yes, which we are all completely incapable of following.

[@Logos-Nomos]

What do you, as a Two Kingdom adherents, mean when you declare Christ as KING of kings and LORS of lords? Who are the kings and lords?

[@bretlynn]

I've lost track of the number of logical fallacies presented here in this video

[@THEOCAST]

This statement is a logical fallacy

[@JW-tg1nn]

Could you name 2?

[@Logos-Nomos]

As the world is won over two Christ, they become obedient to Christ as King and Lord. Two Kingdom theology will end up with empty declarations of Christ as Lord rendering their adherents to break the Third Commandment. Such lukewarm Christianity will end with Christ saying that He grew weary of their false declaration of Him as "Lord, Lord" on Judgement Day.

[@JW-tg1nn]

The world is won over to Christ through the Gospel, which is good news. It is not won over through the bad news that I see you advocating for in your comments.

[@Logos-Nomos]

​@@JW-tg1nn The Good News is certainly News that is Good for whom Christ shed His blood for their sins by His infinitely effectual atonement, the price of sin is completely paid, the work of God done in their hearts seals them forever in His Grace and Mercy. He is the Good Shepherd who laid His life down for HIS SHEEP, not the goats who are vessels of dishonor. Since their sins are removed infinitely as far as the east is from the west, God will sustain them till the end and NOT ONE will be lost to the Glory of the Father. That, my friend, is truly Good News. Synergists claim that the choice is all theirs and that they can ultimately end up in hell. That is Christ denying bad news.

[@JW-tg1nn]

@@Logos-Nomos right. The Gospel. His blood covers the sins of those who recognize their need and cry out to Him. Are you the tax collector who calls on Him in desperation or the Pharisee who loudly prays "thank you that i am not like that sinner"?

[@Logos-Nomos]

@@JW-tg1nn I am even less worthy of than that tax collector. Your point is, Mr. Holier than Thou?

[@JW-tg1nn]

@@Logos-Nomos weird that the guy calling for the execution of sinners is calling someone else "holier than thou".

[@de5ertscorpion]

When I ran across the two kingdoms doctrine I don't think that I ever had anything to "learn." I just had always observed and just assumed that scripture just gives birth to that mindset, I had just never heard the term "two kingdoms." What I never could figure out growing up was why christians in my church and all of the local churches were constantly running around trying to put out societal and political fires and becoming activists on everything. *That* was what I couldn't find in scripture. Law can only restrain outward displays of the flesh not change the heart. If fur coats become the fashion or even mandatory, then the fake fur coats will be at walmart next week. A forced "christianized" society just leads to hypocrisy on a mass scale and makes things even more confusing.

[@instepbydantebrown]

@de5ertscorpion Right! There is a scriptural basis for three important aspects: 1) preaching the gospel, 2) praying for our leaders, and 3) maintaining personal sanctification. Unfortunately, these three elements are devalued in theonomy.

[@de5ertscorpion]

@@instepbydantebrown I disagree. We don't maintain anything. Christ did it all and paid it all.

[@instepbydantebrown]

@@de5ertscorpion yeah, I concur when I say "maintain".... I mean it in the Phil 2:12 sense of utilizing the grace of God and power of Holy Spirit to continually mature spiritually. ..if that makes sense...

[@rustenharris10]

Your limitation of the gospel as you have defined it... Could be said without believing "Christ is Lord". Teaching the nations to observe all that Christ has commanded us will result in applications of the world. By calling you R2K , I'm not denying that you care about things in the world. I am calling out that you do so with impotency because you gag the scriptures in those realms... And puts the Bible in opposition to natural law Which is the defining characterstic of the R2K position. The old two kingdom position understood these two things as not oppositional in practice or meaning.

[@JW-tg1nn]

Please repent and believe in Jesus.

[@robmarshall956]

As I read at Got questions a while back “The Bible gives us two truths regarding our stance towards politics and government. The first truth is that the will of God permeates and supersedes every aspect of life. It is God’s will that takes precedence over everything and everyone (Matthew 6:33). God’s plans and purposes are fixed, and His will is inviolable. What He has purposed, He will bring to pass, and no government can thwart His will (Daniel 4:34-35). In fact, it is God who “sets up kings and deposes them” (Daniel 2:21) because “the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes” (Daniel 4:17). A clear understanding of this truth will help us to see that politics is merely a method God uses to accomplish His will. Even though evil men abuse their political power, meaning it for evil, God means it for good, working “all things together for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28). Second, we must grasp the fact that our government cannot save us! Only God can. We never read in the New Testament of Jesus or any of the apostles expending any time or energy schooling believers on how to reform the pagan world of its idolatrous, immoral, and corrupt practices via the government. The apostles never called for believers to demonstrate civil disobedience to protest the Roman Empire’s unjust laws or brutal schemes. Instead, the apostles commanded the first-century Christians, as well as us today, to proclaim the gospel and live lives that give clear evidence to the gospel’s transforming power. There is no doubt that our responsibility to government is to obey the laws and be good citizens (Romans 13:1-2). God has established all authority, and He does so for our benefit, “to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13-15). Paul tells us in Romans 13:1-8 that it is the government’s responsibility to rule in authority over us-hopefully for our good-to collect taxes, and to keep the peace. Where we have a voice and can elect our leaders, we should exercise that right by voting for those who best demonstrate Christian principles. One of Satan’s grandest deceptions is that we can rest our hope for cultural morality and godly living in politicians and governmental officials. A nation’s hope for change is not to be found in any country’s ruling class. The church has made a mistake if it thinks that it is the job of politicians to defend, to advance, and to guard biblical truths and Christian values. The church’s unique, God-given purpose does not lie in political activism. Nowhere in Scripture do we have the directive to spend our energy, our time, or our money in governmental affairs. Our mission lies not in changing the nation through political reform, but in changing hearts through the Word of God. When believers think the growth and influence of Christ can somehow be allied with government policy, they corrupt the mission of the church. Our Christian mandate is to spread the gospel of Christ and to preach against the sins of our time. Only as the hearts of individuals in a culture are changed by Christ will the culture begin to reflect that change. Believers throughout the ages have lived, and even flourished, under antagonistic, repressive, pagan governments. This was especially true of the first-century believers who, under merciless political regimes, sustained their faith under immense cultural stress. They understood that it was they, not their governments, who were the light of the world and the salt of the earth. They adhered to Paul’s teaching to obey their governing authorities, even to honor, respect, and pray for them (Romans 13:1-8). More importantly, they understood that, as believers, their hope resided in the protection that only God supplies. The same holds true for us today. When we follow the teachings of the Scriptures, we become the light of the world as God has intended for us to be (Matthew 5:16). Political entities are not the savior of the world. The salvation for all mankind has been manifested in Jesus Christ. God knew that our world needed saving long before any national government was ever founded. He demonstrated to the world that redemption could not be accomplished through the power of man, economic strength, military might, or politics. Peace of mind, contentment, hope, and joy-and the salvation of mankind-are provided only through Jesus’ death and resurrection”

[@sheliabryant3997]

What a fine explication on this topic! A most critical subject that requires CAREFUL CON- SIDERATION and a patient, systematic REASONING. The present state of the State is so precarious and, thus, vulnerable to despotisms sneaking into power under pretense of "peace-making" or presumptuous attempts at "prophecy fulfillment'. Please, Gentlemen: KEEP AT IT! 🌈🌈

[@Logos-Nomos]

Adultery is a sin of death. The church is tasked to separate from it and the civil magistrate is tasked to punish it PAUL said that the magistrate is tasked to punish evil. If the Christians sins, he should expect to be punished by the church via excommunication and from the magistrate. If it is capital punishment, then he should bear it. That is what Romans 13 says.

[@Logos-Nomos]

@@JW-tg1nnThat is a stre mn. The Church does not execute criminals nor does the State dictate what the Church believes.

[@Logos-Nomos]

@@JW-tg1nn Jesus said that not one bit of His Just Laws has been done away with, only those laws pertaining to apostate Israel and the temple worship that He fulfilled. Scripture supports my view. The Church preaches to even murderers and pleads with them to repent of their sin and believe in Christ. The job of civil magistrates is to execute God's Justice upon citizens. Christians may even commit adultery. Even if they repent and are accepted back into communion, that doesn't exclude them from civil punishment.

[@Logos-Nomos]

@@JW-tg1nn Adultery is ILLEGAL and MUST be punished whether the so-called "justice system" in the US acknowledges it or not. It isn't an "interpretation" of the Scriptures, both candidates have no right to be in office, nor should they even be breathing now according to God's Law. Obviously, Jesus is not truly King of kings and Lord of lords in your anti-Christ view.

[@Logos-Nomos]

@@JW-tg1nn I told you that I am not American and I don't support either, though one is a lesser evil than the other. If you are Democrat, you are utterly evil and it would explain your antinomian, anti-Christian views that you have demonstrated thus far.

[@Logos-Nomos]

@@JW-tg1nn Adultery is ILLEGAL and MUST be punished whether the so-called "justice system" in the US acknowledges it or not.

[@richk3797]

A response to these gentlemen: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWbXl5RqjbRmaKs

[@savedwretch8711]

Yay!😁

[@sheliabryant3997]

REMEMBER THIS: Josef Stalin, from early childhood into pre- adolescence ( +-) aspired to- and was in preparation for - the "priesthood" [in Soviet Georgia (I think)]. His instructor took him and classmates to a public hang- ing and gave an unmitigable lesson ON "THE LAW". Young Stalin was so horrified at THIS Jesus that he dedicated himself to UNDO such a "state" as would require and carry out, IN THE NAME OF HONORING God, such a merciless and (in the event) unjust/ unjustifiable ritual. See how that turned out. 😶

[@sirvicemanone]

Huh? Theonomy? Clarifying? Pastoral? Do you guys ever bring up the Bible ? This is really nonsense.

[@KevinStJohn-dc5uy]

Fail: Your fiery dart missed the dart board and fell to the floor. Try again.

[@JW-tg1nn]

​@@KevinStJohn-dc5uythey referenced scripture the entire time. It's obvious you didn't listen

[@junkdrawer5262]

“””Historical””” 2 kingdoms lol

[@MrKC23]

They obscure the Gospel. Maybe they aren't saved

[@ThePattersonPod]

Good to be zealous for the Gospel, but that’s too broad of a brush brother. Many theonomists are brothers who are wrong. Some of the founders and modern leaders do get into Galatian heresies like denying the Law Gospel distinction and viewing the work of Adam, Christ, and ourselves similarly. Yet many simply have theonomy without this background baggage.

[@Logos-Nomos]

Obscure? How?

[@akadwriter]

​@Logos Nomos Seriously?? You have to ask this?? For one, they twist The Great Commission into something it's not! Secondly, as these guys have accurately stated, they change the mission of the church. NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE do we see Paul, Peter and Our Lord tell us to change political entities or work to bring change in the civic sphere!!

[@JW-tg1nn]

Who? Theonomists?

[@Replacemybatteriesplease]

"Are we saying the goal is to transform a country from the top down?"... yes. Most Europeans alive today that are Christians come from a long line of Christian ancestors that were once pagan who were converted and faithful after their king was evangelized by an early church saint (e.g. Boniface to Germania...) This seems like an obvious recognition of the natural law of man's need for hierarchy.