A Review of Dishonored's Chaos System

I just love causing chaos.
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#dishonored #gaming

[@santiagocampos7245]

Chaos in dishonored is a tricky subject. Although canon says a few things about how Corvo made his way in dishonored I like to think that he only goes for his objectives, does his job and walks away undetected since many forms of non-lethal elimination are frankly torture methods. In dishonored 2 they are less "creppy" but there are some quite questionable ones like jindosh.

[@jeremyscungio16]

Campbells non lethal is a fair punishment, same with the pendleton twins, they had slaves in their mines, the Boyle is the only messed up non lethal

[@AccessDen]

@@jeremyscungio16 Im not sure on the morality of kidnapping Sokolov just cause he happens to be smart and work for the enemy, also you can torture sokolov with rats on a non-lethal playthrough, literally torture. Same with the art dealer, torture to get the safe combination lock in mission 2, it stops being a game when he says the safeword incase you wanna go down the "he enjoyed it" line of reasoning.

[@matthewkendrick8280]

@@AccessDenthe rats only scared Sokolov I don’t think they ever bit him

[@Timebomb_19]

⁠@@AccessDenSokolov is a piece of shit who experiments on humans and has little to no empathy for anyone. He himself realises this in his later years, as we see in the second game. It’s implied that he sexually abused Delilah while she was a student of his, and leads to the belief that he uses his position of power to get what he wants.

[@el_baz00ka10]

@@stevenseagull2030because you are a psychopath

[@frostyodran5893]

you missed a few pretty important details, corvo is emilys father which is important to the story and emilys character development based on corvos actions. you also implied that low chaos can also get morally bad due to the ways you get rid of the targets, the thing is that its mandatory only in the no kills ghost run, you can still kill the targets in your low chaos run. the last detail you forgot is that the game does not happen in the span of a week but multiple months

[@MisterPeckingOrder]

Corvo was sleeping a lot longer than I thought

[@frostyodran5893]

@@MisterPeckingOrder yeah bto had to be tired, i also seem like a prick in that comment, guess i had some character development

[@ToxicBastard]

4:29 Windblast is not lethal unless upgraded, at level 1 it's just a stun

[@e2b265]

4:25 Reminder that “Non-lethal” is not just the opposite of lethal. Most of those abilities are just for playing, lethal or non-lethal, such as blink and dark vision. The fact that there are a good amount of essentially lethal-only powers is actually worse in my opinion. Not to mention that some of them are not just lethal, but are based around actively fighting, meaning high chaos stealth doesn’t even use these abilities, which means a significant amount of power is useless on this. I’m glad in Dishonored 2 they gave Emily some more universal abilities that actually support most play styles very nicely.

[@c0mplex_Ale]

Also he ignored the fact that the sword, which the game dedicates Corvo’s right hand exclusively to use it, can’t be used if you want low chaos. And the fact that every single tool aside from the sleep dart is lethal and completely unusable in low chaos.

[@mave6602]

Great analysis. Seeing the Chaos system as a reward to give you more NPCs to use the cool lethal means on is certainly a great take. One perspective is still missing to why players get the impression the Chaos system is a punishment though. The game manipulates players through the introduction of take downs and assassination explanation: "Using stealth and nonlethal approaches has "Benefits": Fewer rats and weepers, some people react favourably, and the final outcome is not as dark." As much as I agree from a gameplay perspective the narrative layer surely conveys the chaos system as a punishment. And by telling players early on this it mainpulates their decision and how they percieve the actions taken. I'm very certain if the only way players got informed of the Chaos systems was the dialogues with the Outsider the opinions would differ. Some might argue not informing players would lead them to restart if they assassinated someone in the first mission before meeting the Outsider. But as someone who skipped that describtion because I first tried Dishonored mid game at a friends house then later started the game skipping tutorial texts and hearing about the Chaos system after killing everyone in the first mission I still managed to get low Chaos ending after the prison break massacre. So just implying the existence of the chaos system more and more through the outsiders monologues would've worked too.

[@jamesducharme1711]

So the high chaos ending isn't the bad ending, but instead is just the ending where everything sucks and is bad? Can't believe my stupid ass got that mixed up :/

[@justinwhite1928]

Very good video. I'd like to add that you could kill all main targets and still be in low chaos. Chaos doesn't mean morality, it simply means the consequence of what you do. If you kill half the guards, of course the city would fall apart. If you kill citizens, the economy would collapse, etc. And one other thing, you can kill EVERYONE on the last level and end in low chaos if I'm not mistaken, that's one flaw I noticed.

[@APersonOnYouTubeX]

They’re all corrupt soldiers so I guess it doesn’t affect much

[@generaltobias3777]

@@APersonOnKZbinX corrupt or not they're still there to stop thugs or criminals whenever they arrive. if they're missing then the streets will be free pickings for gangs and rats.

[@cookie_space]

Chaos is defined by mortality though. Kill more people than the threshold and you get a high chaos stamp for that level. Not that much to do with the consequences of your other choices

[@cheekibreeki9818]

​@@cookie_space It is also affected by if your u get noticed. So you can kill some people, but if you are very open about it and alert everyone then more chaos is caused.

[@btchiaintkidding7837]

i mean, the final ending's chaos rating is an overall, if you've clean hands till the last mission and spared all the bystander guards, then even if you k^ll everyone in the last level it is less k^lls than a high chaos. game is really flexible with chaos practically if u try specifically for the good ending. i massac^ed every assassin in the flooded district and still had the best ending cuz overall chaos was low

[@pandyssianrat]

Amazing video, subscribed! The opinions towards Dishonored's chaos system to me have been so stupid since the first I heard about them. "The game punishes me for using the tools it provides me!" "The non-lethal route is so hard as most of the powers are geared more towards killing." etc. The game is basically rewarding you for high chaos with more NPCs to kill as you enjoy doing that. High chaos also has more dramatic set pieces, which, compared to the non-lethal route, feel much more interesting. Imagine killing most of the innocent people they see in the game, making the rats eat more, breed more, infect more, and then thinking "MAN, why did the game give me this shitty ending!?" Also, every tool in Dishonored can be used as a stealth tool, every explosive in your arsenal can be used as a huge noisemaker, sleep darts work as noise makers which can't be detected as they break on impact, and bolts also work as noisemakers but can be found by the patrolling NPC's, gunshots can also be used to lure enemies to a location just as you teleport/hide someplace else, etc. For the powers, Blink lets you hide/teleport all around the map. Dark vision lets you see anyone coming toward you while also showing you how you can deactivate most security devices. Possession helps you easily move wherever you want through hostile crowds. Time Stop is basically THE stealth power giving you enough time to sleep dart ten people at once, providing you the option to run away from a tight spot, helping you go past arc pylons, and more. Wind Blast lets you blow out torches, knock out enemies for a few seconds, and blast through locked/planked doors without making much noise. Rat Swarm works best with possession as there are many air ducts all across the maps and if you can't find rats you summon them, they can also be used to make the dead bodies of the hounds disappear (killing hounds is not counted as lethal) so that no guard goes on patrol mode or for the alarm. Shadow Kill serves the same purpose for the hounds as Rat swarm but works instantly. [Blood thirsty is the only power that cannot provide any benefit to non-lethal players] Sorry for the essay but, people fault the game for anything they cannot think of doing.

[@damonmcelroy1973]

These systems are cooler when u kill ppl tho wish it would only give you a bad ending if u killed civilians or let good ppl die

[@MultiWolf777]

@@damonmcelroy1973 do the guards all count as bad people, the same ones that were on your side untill you were falsly accused? And if you'd say yes, who would be good in the game then.

[@june570]

Might be a issue with games like dishonored of why would I do all the interesting stuff when you can just shoot and stab people in the face.

[@generaltobias3777]

@@MultiWolf777 well honestly after the lord regent took over a lot of the guards do tend to abuse their powers in multiple situations. it's only captain curnow and others like him who are keeping the watch from becoming nothing worse than thugs. but overall I'd say they're good people, just the bad apples ruin the whole bunch or however that saying goes.

[@MultiWolf777]

@@generaltobias3777 i would agree with that, the game also isn't very consistent with it. I once did a playtheough where i used the heart on everybody and decided to kill or let them live. If you use it multiple times on the same person you get wildly different statements about them simxe its just randomised

[@SayMy_User_Name]

This is possibly the best description of the chaos system I’ve seen on KZbin .. I laugh every time I see someone say it’s just a morality meter lol it’s so much deeper n more thoughtful than that.. players aren’t used to having their actions judged like this .. most games base their outcomes and consequences on dialogue choices, where as dishonored bases ir solely on the players actions, and I kinda love it for that.. I just think as a whole, when it comes to video games, people who look at everything we good and bad r just so shallow.. it’s not real life, there reallyr is no good and bad just choices a player can make, comparing 2 endings for a game as good and bad endings is just missing the entire point.. and this is why we get these linear ass games nowadays cuz no one ever wants ro get the “bad” ending, so everyone just plays every game the same way by being the good guy and the hero and that’s just so damn boring if we’re being honest

[@Blowtorch87]

I killed a lot of people, including all of my main targets (with exception of Campbell because fuck that guy) Literally wiped out the whalers to the last man and still got that sweet low chaos ending. You don't have to be a literall saint to get a good ending, just don't go on a shooting spree in a middle of dunwall every mission

[@adamlasek3190]

Exactly, I don't think a lot of people get that. They just think Low Chaos has to be non-lethal. No, just don't kill every enemy in the level and you'll be fine.

[@themanicman8458]

You can have a low chaos where you kill all of your targets And I mean all of them Also saying that most of the powers aren't designed for killing is technically true but that's also refusing to acknowledge the fact that most of your tool kit is designed around killing Non-lethal takedowns on enemies is just choking or sleep darling or you can avoid them and not interact with them at all and this is fun but so heavily restricted that 90% of your tool kit is worthless Grenades are not a non-lethal tool guns are not a non-lethal tool rats swarm is not a non-lethal power And then you have spring razors your sword whale oil tanks rewire tools flammable bottles incendiary darts Or perhaps tricking the enemies into friendly fire using bend time and possession or just clever movement What about the bloodthirst and shadow kill abilities Drop take downs gravity level 2 wind blast possession is used to walk past entire stealth segments of the game with no challenge and you can do the same with Bend time making them effectively the same power when used in low chaos You can use crossbow bolts as a distraction as well so I'll be fair with that I haven't even come close to discussing all the ways you can kill enemies versus knocking them out or avoiding them If I did discuss all of them I would be here for hours but to satisfy someone's psychotic bloodlust here is a bonus method: try positioning yourself between guards and weepers and then fire your gun in the air to lure them both to the same area then blink to safety and watch the Carnage unfold😁 Basically low chaos is fun for the initial challenge but all the replay value is in high chaos because that's where 90% of the content is Tldr saying that the powers mostly aren't designed to kill is a disingenuous representation of your overall toolkit and when you stop to look at your options you realize you have way more ways to kill a person than you do to spare

[@jawadmuni3447]

playing low chaos is like under the mayo playing ultrakill, you have a sandbox of options and things to play way and a absolutely insane variety of ways to tackle obstacles and pretty much everything, yet you only use 10% of your full arsenal. but ultrakill actually rewards you for playing the fun way, while dishonored doesn't really reward.

[@AccessDen]

4:30 I wouldn't classify "Bend Time", and "Vitality" as non-lethal, using Bend Time to kill a bunch of enemies is like the easiest strat in the game and vitality gives you more health, which is good in a fight (Vitality is kinda crap for both lethal and non-lethal uses IMO) and a big difference between the lethal options and non-lethal options that you've highlighted is that when going for a lethal approach, abilities labelled "non-lethal" are still very useful, using blink to get above enemies and perform drop assassinations for example, or dark-vision to sneak up on them and assassinate a few before a big fight, while shadow kill has no utility when it comes to non-lethal approaches, there is NOTHING, not even some fancy tech or trick shot etc, that you can use it for in a non-lethal approach. 6:45 While I wouldn't say the game is measuring morality with the chaos system there is definitely such a subtext, the best example of this is when the Samuel (boatman) calls you a monster and alerts the guards at the end of the game on high chaos, this is the game creators, through Samuel, judging the player and telling them: you did bad things, your actions were wrong, you are a monster, literally calling you the worst of them all in reference to all the targets you've been assassinating, who were hyped up as bad people, so yeah it kinda feels like a morality system going by another name. Of note on the Lady Boyle "pacifist route", the game developers later commented on it as one of their biggest regrets etc because they thought it wasn't that bad at the time (remember this game was made in 2012 when attitudes towards women were a bit worse than nowadays). While I agree that the chaos system isn't measuring morality but the game treats it kinda like a morality system, for example killing weepers should be low chaos since you prevent the spread of the plague and to be in a zombie-like state must fuck up your mind, they're not human anymore and if this was "how much chaos do you leave in your wake", then killing weepers should lower your chaos, since if you don't they just wake up eventually from their nap and start attacking people again, spreading the plague with them, but instead the game says that sparing weepers is low chaos, with this it should be clear that chaos is just "how much of a pacifist are you", i.e. the same as a binary morality system where good = no killing and bad = yes killing. 8:20 Agree completely, nothing to say here, infact they should do more with this since it was woefully underused in this game, even though the entire point of chaos was "the world changes based on your actions" (explanation of chaos given at the start of mission 2) 10:10 No? how can you say that the ending in which Emily dies is a bad ending? its almost exactly the same as the high chaos ending? a dog eats dog world with lots of sadness and bad stuff going about, like the plague is canonically a MASSIVE DEAL so getting a high chaos ending is canonically fucked up leading to the deaths of millions, like flooded district 2 electric boogaloo, man, that is definitely a bad ending aswell. 12:40 It can feel like a punishment when you get spotted and you have to think to yourself: "I need to run way from these guys, I am a danger to THEM", dishonored 2 improves on this by adding different ways to K.O. enemies peacfully.

[@jackstar9834]

Bend time at level 2 is a god-tier skill for sneaking around enemies, it's not explicitly lethal like the rats or windblast.

[@backerthehacker3700]

People who complain about chaos are jus game journos who can't fathom making their own decisions and just play games the way 'the game itself wants you to play it'. That's why they perceive high chaos as a punishment, they want an easy ride without the difficulty ramping up and still have the game pat them on the back and give them a sticker in the end

[@yago_guillamon]

My favourite way to play Dishonored is to make the decisions that "Corvo would have made". It's usually a low-chaos stealth game where I kill the only targets who deserve it or whose non-lethal option is a fuck-up shit. Usuallu goes like: -Campell: Non-lethal. -Pendeltons: Lethal. -Lady Boild: Lethal. -Lord Regent: First expose him and then kill him for revenge. -Daud: Fight him and then spare him. -Havelock: Kill him only after he attacks you.

[@LigH_de]

Great conclusion: "You will always harvest what you plant."

[@user-pt4vx1zd7i]

My first playthrough I played low chaos and I just killed the Pendletons and lady Boyle.

[@Geekdom5106]

you really said everything i hate about the chaos system. great video

[@shifterwolf8573]

I love how you explained it

[@epiclyligitish]

You're great, subbed :)

[@lelouche25]

Also, common miscocenption, but if you only kill your targets, you don't get high chaos ending.

[@ToxicBastard]

11:18 Where mark? Is this a bug?

[@mitchschneider4191]

I definitely would have added more options for low chaos players

[@xodusreaper8190]

I play the game as a balance of high & low where I always kill targets and few necessary guards for my objective no more no less

[@arandomthingintheabyss2062]

tldr dishonored one is that the "none lethal" options are usally worse then death meanwhile in dishonored two there actually non lethal exept the one were you turn a guy into a vegetable

[@Semitic_from_Mesopotamia]

High Chaos is fun; I play to have fun.

[@TheScoutPlay]

Metal Gear Solid V also responds pretty visibly to your playstyle. And being a pretty grounded game, despite the peculiar Kojima taste, that is, I'd recommend it to anyone.

[@patrickplus9815]

Nice video

[@deadspace_658]

We need a new dishonored game or remaster

[@Alizudo]

*_REMASTER, PLEASE!_* I love the art style of the game, but some of the animations clip into each-other and could use a touch-up.

[@mr.grimms321]

Now, it’s been 10y

[@Grz349]

10:40 “if you play the game as a righteous ghost you get something that reflects that”, but you yourself said that some of the non-letal choices are not morally good choices. That’s the problem, the game considers questionable moral choices as worth of a good ending.

[@justrandomstuff6828]

Man, you lost me when you said Metal Gear Solid V is bad, like, where? Story? Yeah i'll give you that, what else? Absolutely nothing, it's a stealth game that hasn't been topped yet

[@Ghooly]

I'm not someone that'll put down someone else's opinion of stuff so if Metal Gear Solid V is that good for you? Fair enough. For me, Metal Gear Solid V simply fails in a lot of areas. And the story being as bad as it is, is unfortunately a big deal for me. Ground Zeroes is incredible for the record. But The Phantom Pain? One of the bigger disappointments for me as someone that counts Metal Gear as their favourite franchise.

[@void-creature]

The moment to moment gameplay of V is uncontested by any other stealth game imo. However, I think Dishonored has it beaten in almost every other category, from story, characters, writing, level design, worldbuilding, mission design, etc.

[@Elliot226]

Just finished my first high chaos run to get the last achievements I needed and I agree and disagree with your takes. The ending feels like a punishment, but I definitely agree some of the non-lethal options are WAY worse than just killing them. When I killed Boyle this playthrough (right after coming off my ghost/clean hands achievement run) I was like "trust me bitch, this is WAY kinder than an eternity with that psycho in the boat". BUT DO EMILY OR SAMUEL CARE? NOPE The one kind of play style I wish they would have accounted for are stealth killers. I know you can get ghost with kills, but your chaos is still high. I was hoping for a middle ground if you could successfully kill as many people as you want but not get caught, your chaos should be lower than just going in guns/knives blazing. It felt really unfair by the end of it when I worked so hard to not set off alarms (AND I DIDN'T EVEN NEED THE GHOST ACHIEVEMENT ANYMORE - I just like being sneaky) Edit - okay, your explanation at the end i do agree, it's not a punishment in the typical sense. It does give you what you asked for. Maybe it's what I was saying in my previous paragraph that it doesn't discern between a stealth killer run and a guns blazing run. THAT feels like a punishment when you have to work so much harder to be sneaky and kill everyone instead of just running right at them and not giving a fuck.

[@Dennis-nc3vw]

I played the game on Low Chaos the first time and the story just seemed so "bleh." Then I played again on High Chaos and boy oh boy did it feel so much better. There was a real sense of cause and effect to the world, and it fits much more with the Outsider being the devil.

[@Grz349]

6:14 that’s part of the problem with the system, the ending of the game is very good/bad but low chaos choices can be morally bad. But the game treats them as morally good. In game the system is justified as being causal, that is playing high chaos causes the plague to spread/general is just causing problems for innocent people, but your chaos rating effects things that can’t have a causal relation ship. Aka the overseer murder in the overseer barracks during the first mission, why would that change when if you do a stealth high chaos run?

[@nv_kai1395]

the chaos system work just like its name :"chaos". you are allow to kill a small number of people including the main target per mission and still get low chaos. the question is how much chaos do you want ? the outsider give you the mark not for stealth, nor revenge, but to see how much chaos you will bring to the world, same with the tool. you like to kill then the game will give you more target to kill and vice versa. it's not a karma system, the game just support your playstyle base on how much "chaos" do you want.

[@bklopps]

i enjoyed the video but you sound ignorant when you say "if youre annoyed the game doesnt let you kill indiscriminately without giving you a grim ending youre missing the point of the game. Ones main reason for playing a game does not have to be philosophical or story-driven. the point of the game could be to explore all the ways to use the cool abilities in the playground-like environment. as someone who simply wishes I could kill as much as i wanted in these games without having characters treat me like scum, the chaos system is just an annoyance

[@Ghooly]

I mean yeah obviously everyone has their own value system for what they want out of literally any media that they consume. But if someone was to ignore that a key part of Dishonored is about *how* you use your powers within the sandbox then yeah I'd say they are slightly missing the point of the game. And again, as I say in the video you aren't even punished for killing lots of people, the game just gives you a conclusion that fits in with that playstyle. I'm not even sure why people get so defensive about the game looking down on Corvo killing dozens of people because that is factually not a very nice thing to do. Luckily there are hundreds of other games out there that let players murder people without any repercussions. Dishonored just isn't one of them and if anything that just makes it far more interesting to me.

[@btchiaintkidding7837]

literally nobody treats you like a scum. Only in the final mission Samuel gets mad (rightfully so). All other interactions are ultimate power fantasy, guards interaction are basically them sh^tting their pants in your fear, them making more intense more badass wanted d^ad posters based on your chaos, Lord Reagent literally building a panic room and him being various level of paranoid based on your playstyle( non-detected, he himself comes dowmstairs and talks, detected= he goes up in the tower talks with zoom call or something etc, high chaos NPCs talk about how he is so scared he even eats in his panic room behind the security laser wall or something etc ), there are also many NPC notes and stuff that makes you sound like relentless unstoppable nightmare for your targets amd security systems etc. game has a mission replay menu, you can just go back and cause mayhem. it doesnt have to be a playthrough or part of your "canon" playthrough or whatever. game being story driven or philosophical is not a bad thing inherently, also the game is not story focused where they shove down the narrative doen the throat. in the maingame you can literally skip all the cutscenes dialogues and just ignore the NPCs cuz fuk'em. have fun. the game simply reflects your action on the world which is a part of the game being immersive sim thats it

[@lelouche25]

The Chaos system is actually good, and low chaos is best because it's the ending that gives the city a better chance. High Chaos is bad, and you are stacking bodies left and right. The Rat Plague grows out of control because of so many bodies feeding the rats, The people are aware there is a crazy bastard murdering people left and right. The city is filled with fear, and listening to people you hear them becomes more and more paranoid. I think it's great, since in the end, as you said if you choose to be a murdering psycho, the world will reflect that.

[@ilovecherries101]

Chaos system is way better executed in Dishonored 2. First game feels a bit goofy in that regard. Overall I think the game is designed with high chaos stealth play style in mind first. Low chaos run is more like a self imposed challenge. Your weapons and trinkets aren't exactly non-lethal and low chaos run makes your arsenal of tools quite limited. You have to bother with hiding bodies a lot or sacrifice well guarded collectables. And still just a few mistakes can force your hand and ruin your chaos status making low chaos extremely difficult on first playthrough

[@thane6577]

Decent video for the most part, but I can't help but find it a bit baffling how someone who grasps that Dishonoured's chaos system ISN'T a morality metre somehow fails to grasp that the non-lethal options AREN'T mercy options as well. They're not "mercy" options, they are, as the game itself labels them, merely the non-lethal option for players who don't want to spill any blood. In much the same way Dishonoured doesn't treat, or refer to, its Chaos system as equal to a morality one, it doesn't handle sparing the lives of your primary targets in any such way either. Calling those options "mercy" is as wrong as the claim that Chaos = morality, frankly. Both are just reflections of how the player personally see's fit to dispense with certain targets. (Though I feel it worth noting that Im not necessarily arguing that some of the non-lethal options aren't, arguably, fucked up. The nuance of each individual non-lethal choice is a separate debate in my book.) Also, sorry to nitpick but I gotta call out the Windblast thing as well. Whilst Windblast CAN be lethal, I think binarily labelling it as such does it a disservice. Windblast is a utility with merely lethal potential. You can use it non-lethally to do things like break down doors, redirect projectiles (though that likely will result in a lethal outcome) or just stun enemies at level 1 with a bit of care. You could probably say the same for rat swarm, since you can combo it with possession for more stealth rather than simply disposing of a guard.

[@Ghooly]

Yeah you're right for the most part. If I referred to the non lethal options as 'mercy' then that's just wrong but I can't really remember my thought process I made this video a while ago. The reason I don't go into the minutiae of the powers and their lethality, as people constantly mention here, is because I wanted this to be a short video. I originally wrote down a much longer segment going into how each power could be seen as a lethal/non-lethal ability, but it added too much to a video that wasn't meant to be that in-depth anyway. I wish I had gone deeper in some aspects looking back and it's been interesting to see people's perspective on the system as a whole at least.

[@saryn2885]

every ability in this game is useble for lethal and nonlethal paths and thats pretty good.

[@fenison4430]

I've watched half of this video, i'm not watching it to the end, to me, this discussion and almost every argument brought up in favor of this system seems pointless when the game itself literally at the start of the game when you get your equipment tells you "killing people raises chaos, high chaos gives you a bad ending, you can get a good ending by not killing people". That in itself will make 99% of all people playing the game immediately decide their playstyle, either not caring about the story and having fun with ALL of the mechanics the game presents, or having to slowly sneak around choking enemies with subpar stealth mechanics, quite frankly i do not really care whether the chaos system is a moral system or anything like that because the way the game presents it immediately tells you how you're supposed to play to not get a bad ending, there's no point in you explaining why sending the Pendelton brothers to the mines or letting the Lady Boyle get kidnapped by a probably rapist is a bad moral decision because i agree with you that it is, but you know who disagrees with you? The game itself does, by giving you a good ending for "sparing" these people from killing them. To me, as someone who has never made a video game before but is very interested in the topic of game design as a whole and would want to make a game some day, i see a few rather good solutions that ideally should all be combined but could work on their own being this: 1. Make it so that there's also middle chaos, which is how you get the good ending, being too bloodthirsty and killing everything would give you a bad ending since many people who don't deserve to die, do, the plague gets stronger because of it, and Emily learns to be a tyrant, but being too pacifistic and never killing would also give a bad ending because you let all of the people who are responsible for the way things are and who are corrupt get away with it (or some other story related stuff, i'm not that good at story stuff), the way to get the good ending would be to strike a balance, killing or not killing would now be a choice the player must always consider because swaying in one way or the other for too long would result in a bad ending, it would mean that *most* players would have to engage with all of the games mechanics, both lethal and non-lethal ones, it would make every major target all that more interesting because you'd have to decide who deserves to die and who's worth keeping, even IF they are corrupt, just thinking about all of this makes me jealous we never got that. 2. Improve the stealth mechanics themselves, i've played Splinter Cell Chaos Theory and i've witnessed just how incredibly good a stealth game can be when you simply implement a solid shadow-based stealth system into the game, Dishonored doesn't have that, you are either behind cover to hide, or in plain sight, it makes every encounter with enemies rather dull because the solution is always to either be behind something or in the rooftops, a shadow system would add another level of complexity where the players would be able to stand near a guard and still not be seen if they position themselves correctly, it would make ghost runs without knocking out enemies actually viable since now you'd have something far more interesting to think about and maneuver around, it would mean that you'd ACTUALLY have two different playstyles, lethal one where you go guns blazing not caring about shadows, using all of your tools and powers to your advantage, and a non-lethal one where you'd have to navigate through shadows, always keeping track of just how hidden you are, where the enemies are and what they're doing, maneuvering between enemies and light and shadows and different types of ground trying to stay as stealthy as possible (of course now i'm just rambling and mentioning stuff like sounds and other stuff that would make it an even more entertaining stealth experience, but still), just this mechanic alone could potentially fix most of Dishonored's problems in my eyes because of how engaging and thrilling it is to be able to move past enemies in their cones of vision with them never even knowing you were there, being able to choose between going in through the rooftops or staying on the ground hiding from enemies, because now both ways would be viable, as opposed to always going upward if there's an opportunity to do so. 3. Making all of the lethal tools have non-lethal applications that are viable to use, or making the majority of the tools non-lethal, that can be then used in lethal ways, if for example the summoned rats wouldn't actually kill targets and would instead "stun" them, making the targets being bitten by rats unable to see you while you sneak past them, this would make it a non-lethal tool to use in stealth, for it to be lethal, maybe you'd have to knock the target down on the ground first, since that way they wouldn't be able to get up quickly to shake off the rats, or you'd have to knock the enemies weapons first somehow so they can't shake off the rats, i'm sure there's lots of other solutions to making it work, but the point is that this power would suddenly have a non-lethal use for it, which for people who want to kill would then be able to have a lethal use. I hope i didn't come off as too negative in this comment, i just quite frankly have never heard a solid argument for why the chaos system and how it's implemented in this or the subsequent games is good, to me it's a system that could be good if tweaked around, but as it is, for most people it will just be a binary choice between one of two options, and one of them is labeled as the "good" option by the game itself, and since most people choose to be good in games for obvious reasons, this really wouldn't be a choice anyway.

[@Ghooly]

Hmm I guess I'd say that if you're going to take the time to write a novel as a comment (which I love, no shade) I'm surprised you didn't take the time to watch like 5 more minutes of the video. This is generally a topic I don't care to discuss much anymore anyway so I'll just say that next time you decide to do this in someone else's video at least watch through the whole argument BEFORE deciding that their argument is wrong lmao

[@fenison4430]

@@Ghooly There was no point in further watching because it was all the stuff that i've heard already before (i checked the other half of the video just for the sake of knowing if i was right and sadly i was), none of which convince me the chaos system and it's implementation is good, thanks for reading tho.

[@thebadger4040]

Yes, but how does getting the bad ending make the journey any less fun?

[@fenison4430]

@@thebadger4040 I suppose if you don't care for the story and being a morally good person in it (like most people would want to be) then it doesn't matter, but if you do care, then the bad ending is a direct punishment to the player for playing in the "wrong way", which sadly in this case is the fun way. It's basically like solving a problem in a fun way, only for someone else to scold you for doing it like that, some will not care about the scolding and will just continue to have fun with solving the problem in their own way, others will be so dissatisfied with the fact that they did something correctly yet still got punished that the feeling of achievement and satisfaction will be drastically diminished, if not outright gone. There's a reason why the ending is often considered the most important part of the story, if the ending is unsatisfying, then by extension for most people the story as a whole will feel unsatisfying.

[@drparadox7833]

Low chaos is less fun and you are forced to say no to many weapons and go through elaborate quests BUT that is it's STRENGTH because if you persevere you get better ending

[@Fefe-vp9yk]

It depends, I personally found low chaos really fun! You can still use your weapons but in different ways, to make noise, for example.

[@davidcarlsson8836]

I disagree with your conclusions. I just hate having the having the feel bad ending and having all the npcs hate as you get in high chaos and thus feel forced in to the boring gameplay of low chaos. I want to have fun and be the hero of the story! Still good video you deserve more subscribers. Thumbs up.

[@davidcarlsson8836]

I wish they had intruduced a few sections where they disabled stealth, fight supernatural demons or something so there was no moral failure and you could still use all the fun equipment

[@ToxicBastard]

@@davidcarlsson8836 You can still go stealth free and not kill many people, especially in D2 with the melee knockouts

[@maxburrill6192]

You don't think that there would be some narrative dissonance if the game treated you like a hero for killing everybody you come across?

[@Hewasnumber1]

“I want to play like a bloodthirsty lunatic but not get treated like a bloodthirsty lunatic.” Immersive sims are made to reflect the player’s actions. There is no right or wrong way to play, but the game will acknowledge your actions whether they be good or bad. If you want the game to hand wave your gameplay choices you’re playing the wrong genre of video game.

[@HD-vu5vv]

@@davidcarlsson8836 "Supernatural demons" bro you're in the wrong game or what 😭

[@Alizudo]

To me, it feels you must actively constrict yourself and limit your own options in order to obtain Low-Chaos. If you simply *_play the game normally,_* if you DARE defend yourself against a singular attacker, you automatically have High-Chaos.

[@Ghooly]

Yes, and that in itself is why a low chaos route is interesting. Because you knowingly limit your toolset and have to try alternative methods to completing your objectives. Again, the consequences of your actions is one of Dishonored's biggest themes and understanding that KILLING people will result in MORE 'BAD STUFF' regardless of the context of *why* you've killed someone is the kind of narrative harmony that immersive sims clamour for. People keep drumming up the same take that the chaos system is some kind of punishment on the player as opposed to a tool that balances your actions and represents those in a world where everything is very close to falling to complete and utter chaos. And instead of understanding that and using it to inform their playthrough, whether that be limiting yourself to certain powers/items or going bananas and killing everyone in your path, I just see people miss the whole point of it to begin with. Maybe the chaos system is poorly communicated? Is it a detailed method of representing morality? Idk probably not but in terms of pure gameplay I still don't see how anyone can have a problem with it. Apologies for the essay here and I do respect your opinion for what it's worth lmao

[@Alizudo]

@@Ghooly I don't disagree with what you're conveying. I should say, the game is too unforgiving. There are only the two choices: low or high. If you so much as even *_push a man who assaulted you,_* you automatically have "high" chaos, which then disingenuously depicts you as a bloodthirsty, devil-worshiping serial killer. At its core, it's still a video game: whichever chaos rating you receive is inherently meaningless; yet, the game actively works to caution against high chaos at all costs. It is framed as a distinctly negative thing that must be avoided, and to receive it is regarded as a failure on your part as player; when again, simply being witnessed by another human being may immediately grant "high" "chaos" even when not a single drop of blood has been spilled. Perhaps the game's execution of the system may have been performed better; other, middling volumes of chaos that more accurately depict alternative choices made. As it stands, your only two choices of character are "Saint" and "Antichrist", and making entirely basic rational choices will immediately label you the latter.

[@thebadger4040]

. You can kill plenty of people before the game counts your playthrough as high chaos

[@totallynotabot6003]

@@thebadger4040 specifically 20 percent of each level

[@jawadmuni3447]

why is metal gear solid 5 bad

[@Warlord4Hikage]

Chaos is not good. Beat it.

[@givemeshrubs4295]

The chaos system might have worked in another game, but it's a terrible fit for dishonoured. First of all, the game *does* portray high chaos as a worse outcome than low chaos. This can be seen in the endings, the way characters treat you, achievement names, etc. If you choose to play in high chaos, the game will actively punish you through its characters, most obviously Samuel at the end, who will be disgusted with your behaviour. This will have an emotional impact on the player and will make them feel shitty about their actions, depending on how invested they are in the story. This video's argument that the chaos system is designed to facilitate different playstyles falls apart immediately, considering most of the changes, as he says, affect character interactions and not the gameplay experience. Getting constantly called a miserable human being by your allies isn't part of the gameplay fantasy of a high-chaos killer, it's the game telling you your actions where wrong. The game explicitly believes that low chaos is morally superior to high chaos. Which makes other elements of the game fall apart. Namely the non-lethal target eliminations. The chaos system implies that selling the Pendletons into slavery or giving Boyle away to her stalker, reprehensible acts, are morally superior than just killing them. Problematic, to say the least. But the absolute worst part about the chaos system is how it causes players to think in terms of a moral binary. It's obvious throughout this video - he acts like there are only two possible playthroughs in dishonoured, a low chaos, and a high chaos. But dishonoured is an immersive sim, a genre characterised by the immense amount of options available to the player. There aren't two options to pick from in every dishonoured encounter - there are dozens. Assassinate, choke, sleep dart, fight, sneak past, distract with a bottle and sneak past, freeze time and sneak past, rewire a wall of light and trick them into it, etc. The chaos system, however, can't measure this nuance. It only understands morality in the form of a simple binary. It makes no distinction between sneaking past every enemy with perfect stealth, or roughly choking every character in the level you into unconsciousness. In dishonoured 2, you can lock unconscious enemies into sealed vaults where they would painfully and slowly starve to death over a period of weeks, but the game considers this a low chaos option. Why does a franchise filled with player agency and decisions feel the need to reduce all those decisions to a simple moral binary? There aren't two playthroughs in dishonoured. There are thousands. And there's the heart, an item that literally tells you a secret about a character in the level. If the heart tells me a guard is violently abusive of their power, or will kill someone next week, killing them might be the morally correct option. Except, the chaos system considers all kills to be evil, no matter what. This totally undermines the heart as a tool, by removing all its nuance. So, yeah. The chaos system spits in the faces of player decisions by making a simplified moral judgement based on rudimentary factors, and directly encourages some obviously evil actions.

[@Ghooly]

This is actually the first sound argument against the chaos system I've seen. I do wish there was a lot more nuance to how the whole system worked and there are undoubtedly contradictions within the game's mechanics and storytelling that make it fall apart the further you look into it. As a structural mechanic though it's something that gives me a drastically different playthrough depending on my mood when I feel replaying the game, and that's cool enough for me to let it's shortcomings fall to the wayside. If Arkane ever dabbles with this system again I do hope to see some of the things you point out resolved.

[@givemeshrubs4295]

@@Ghooly Fair enough. For all my problems with the chaos, I also think it's very cool to see the game change around you as a result of your choices. I just wish Samuel wouldn't be disappointed in me lol

[@generaltobias3777]

Samuel is rightly pissed if you slaughter hundreds of people, his only mistake was thinking I wouldn't slaughter him as well after that silly little "I'm gonna tell them you're coming" He had balls to do that, though.

[@c0mplex_Ale]

@@generaltobias3777Yeah like bro I just slaughtered the entire city, why do you think you can order me around telling me I’m not welcome in your boat anymore and that you’re gonna mess with my mission? And honestly though, Samuel is super chill the entire game and never questions anything that’s going on, literally every single dialogue of his is the same in both chaos states, so him turning on me in the end feels contrived.

[@Markus-8Muireg]

To be fair in regards to the dishonored 2 example with the vault, it's a safe room with food and water for weeks, and as such it won't be airtight as well.

[@desertxpunk]

The main issue with dishonored isn't morality or the ending, it's the ability to save scumm. This game screams for checkpoints instead of a game ruining mechanic that imposes tedium.

[@Markus-8Muireg]

Id say not having quicksaves is what imposes tedium since any slightly risky maneuver, or just plain bad luck, can get you spotted or in a fight you don't wanna take, and playing all the way from the last checkpoint up until the mistake is just pure tedium. Far Cry 3 has no quicksaves, and having the last guard in an outpost see you milliseconds before you blow his light out, ruining your stealth reward just sucks. You can just not use quicksaves if they are bothering you, but if a lack of quicksaves bothers you you can't do anything about it.

[@JohnWhite-ms5wr]

I disagree.

[@Ghooly]

Sorry John I'll do better next time bud

[@mistergordonfreeman]

scotish