A Simple Way to Choose Correct Bike Size

[@CamNicholls]

We're winding back the clock on the channel today. Neill Stanbury is in the house, helping me answer a question I get over message almost daily about what frame size people should go? I always direct them to Geometry Geeks, and now I have a video link I can send them as well! Cheers, Cam

[@lenolenoleno]

Shout out to Neil for providing the most concise, scientific, no-nonsense bike fit advice on KZbin.

[@CamNicholls]

He's a gun!

[@errol16]

He is the yoda of bike fit!

[@markrunge2965]

I agree about seat post offset. Getting that right meant it was possible to get legs in a more suitable position above bottom bracket. Really a problem with a lot of bikes that don't have the round seat post so limited to manufacturer offering.

[@junyanchan1285]

I thought the angle of seat tube would be an important factor that would change the length(ETT) and actual reach of saddle to bar drop which would be more accurate. 2 different bikes can have the same reach but different top tube length and put riders in a more stretch out position depending on the angle of the seat tube.

[@timdixo]

The future: integrated cockpits…a bike fitting nightmare and a physiotherapist’s dream.

[@pierrex3226]

On the bright side, should provide plenty of second hand integrated cockpits when people they bought the wrong setup :)

[@serdiezv]

@@pierrex3226 the bad thing is that it's really difficult to find 38cm/120mm bar/stem cockpit combos

[@sbccbc7471]

@@serdiezv For some brands, this combination doesn't even exist. Two-piece cockpits triumph in this.

[@serdiezv]

@@sbccbc7471 I wish more brands would design more aerodynamic/integrated two piece cockpits, like Enve's or BMC's

[@sbccbc7471]

@@serdiezv The first time I saw such a cockpit is on the third-gen Specialized Venge. It's two-piece like its predecessor, but the shift and brake lines run underneath the stem instead of inside it, keeping stem length swaps fast and easy. The same was done for the Tarmac SL7. They've learnt from their mistakes. Bikes with integrated internal routing that run FSA's SMR headset assembly can also run two-piece cockpits: An FSA SMR stem and any handlebar of your choice. This is the only cockpit type I'll run on bikes with integrated internal routing.

[@davidtyler5129]

As usual Cam, spot on content and of course, Neill sharing valuable knowledge. Keep the good stuff coming mate 🚴🏼🤙🙌

[@CamNicholls]

Cheers David.

[@Jarek.]

I like Geometry Geeks page a lot. But recently I found velogicfit which is way better in terms that it allows you to compare frame including stem and even with a (limited) types of handlebars! This helped me with a conclusion that my old Canyon Roadlite (endurance bike) with -17 deg 120mm stem will have same geometry as a stock Tarmac SL7. Riding for 6 months Canyon with this -17d stem helped me to prepare my body for the new bike. When new Tarmac finally arrived it felt perfectly fitted. Regards!

[@Paganizondaf650]

Thanks for the tip. That is a really good idea as I also often swap out the stock stem and handlebars and always just estimated how these changes effect the geometry

[@CamNicholls]

Thanks for sharing, I’ll take a look

[@crispyrad]

good call, I used geometrygeeks to compare reach and stack height earlier this year, it helps to know what you're looking for as very few frames provide the right geometry options for everyone.

[@TheSimonibb]

Love your videos and I’m looking to buy a new bike, so been doing a lot of research about how to make the right choice. However, you 2 made a somewhat identical video last year, where Neil stated how reach and stack were not as important as people made out and much more reliable measurements that people should be concerned with were 1. Effective top tube, 2. Head tube length and 3. Seat post angle. This video seems to slightly contradict the previous one. I guess that looking at all the measurements is the way to go. Thanks again for the help you provide.

[@alcalcagno]

I also noticed the discrepancy between the previous video and this one. Which is rather disconcerting! Change of mind or what? Would be interesting to hear! 6:25 An additional point that nobody seems to mention is the reach/length of the grip/hood. On current disk brakes grips the reach is about 20-25 mm longer than on rim brake grips (certainly Shimano 105). The only post I have seen mentioning grip reach is a video from Cam/Neill about Sram RED 10 days ago.

[@sparkvideos77]

Handlebar reach can also vary widely and affect the overall actual reach to the hoods.

[@sbccbc7471]

Of all the customers I've served, almost none of them took handlebar reach into account when selecting their cockpits or when switching handlebars.

[@devdroid9606]

One thing to keep in mind is that you cannot compare the reach of two different size frames of the same type and conclude that one is just so many millimetres more or less than the other based on the published measurement in the table. For example a small may have a reach of 374 mm while a med 377. Does this mean the small will be just 3mm shorter when you try it? No! You must compare two reaches at the same stack (height). This is because, the head tube being inclined at about 72.5 degrees, as you add spacers to the small frame, you will also be moving the stem up but also closer to the rider. So in reality, you must look at the reach with the spacer (e.g. 20 mm) included. In other words, you must always compare two reaches for a GIVEN stack height, and not simply the value shown in the table. This is something even sales people at bike shops sometimes forget. In Cam's example, his actual reach difference will more more than 7mm (what the Web site says) -- hence the appropriateness of selecting a stem that is 10mm longer. The way I get an approximate frame size is to take the inseam and multiply by 0.635, which will give you the approximate conventional sizing (C-T) for a non-sloping top tube. (E.g. 81.5 *0.635= 51.7 or size 52= small).

[@zerog4261]

I know your post was a year ago but v interesting. Im looking to buy a Marin nicasio plus gravel bike, which i can only order on-line. I have a 54cm Specialized alkez elite and a medium voodoo mountain bike. The Specialized i had to get a smaller stem and even then, flip it, as i felt it was too long. Im an 81.28 inside seam but only 170 cm. Both bikes i was measured for and got the 54cm. My fear is on the 52, my saddle is gonna be higher and put me in a harder riding position but the famous quote is you can make a smaller bike bigger, better than you can make a bigger bike smaller. Personally, the 52 has 400mm handle bars, which id prefer. Pisser when you cant actually sit on tbe bike before yoy buy

[@alcalcagno]

Very good point! 6:25 An additional point that nobody seems to mention is the reach/length of the grip/hood. The only post I have seen mentioning grip reach is a video from Cam/Neill about Sram RED 10 days ago. On current disk brakes grips the reach is about 20-25 mm longer than on rim brake grips (certainly Shimano 105).

[@davidsloan1310]

Good man Cam, I’ve been using the frame comparison in Velogicfit but it can only compare two bikes at a time. This will be a time saver.

[@robertcastellani5301]

Cam you do great work for our community . Thanks again

[@gavinbutler1109]

Always interesting content Cam. Love your work with Neil. keep them coming.

[@P4P5]

Im 185cm with 91cm inseam. Always between sizes. So its either 56 or 58. Most of the times its size 56 for me. If you are like me, its berter to go smaller of the two. You can always extend the stem later on if you need to and Its better to extend the setm, rather then shorten it Imho.

[@YtseHWSW]

There is no better tool for this task than Velogicfit Frame Comparison, which can take into account headset spacers, stem length, stem angle, even handlebar reach. I highly recommend you to try it. Totally free.

[@angustroutman3494]

It's a great video and topic Cam. I still think this will leave people thirsty for the answers to their questions. I think alot people question if they are on the right size bike and that's possibly due to lack of comfort or just not feeling connected to the bike. I understand there are alot of variables in fitting/sizing...to many to list. This is really where Neill's skills shine. Unfortunately not all of us have access to a great fitter like Neill, so that's why it's a daily inbox question...the struggle is real!

[@CamNicholls]

Yes agree Angus, it's not going to answer all the questions but should hopefully help a few!

[@dylanl9532]

Can you do a bike fit video on cyclist with short legs long torso? I know a lot of Asians with this body type need to size up. I'm 173 cm but riding a size medium Giant TCR for longer reach. The other thing is that people with this body type cannot buy endurance bikes. Although these endurance bikes have 20cm higher stack, which equates to more "relaxed" / "comfortable" position, the benefit is completely negated by 20cm higher standover height (nuts hitting top tube at intersection) and less exposed seatpost (more bumpy).

[@WowzaGuy]

Isn’t it the opposition? That this body those needs to size DOWN? I have this body type and I found that I need to size down so that I get enough seat post exposed and also so that my reach isn’t overly long. Am I missing something? Genuinely curious.

[@robertwhyte3435]

As always, very helpful. Thanks.

[@CamNicholls]

Cheers Robert

[@edwarding4355]

I would add seat tube height as a third concern. If the height of the seat is low, you have less deflection and the ride will be harsher.

[@jimmyhor78]

Shorter exposed seatpost is what you meant. Seat height is constant.

[@dakalla]

If you have short legs compared to your whole body size, you often need the smaller size of the frame, even if manufacturer says the larger would fit you. Made that mistake once and can see it on a lot of bikes, that with the larger frame i dont get enough seat post exposed for comfort and seat to bar drop. Reach is adjustable by stem lenght. Frames with a slacker TOP tube angle help with that issue.

[@Thomas..Anderson]

So , to select a right size bike you already have to own a right size bike.

[@Handletaken4]

The absolute most important fitting piece of the puzzle is that the line drawn up through the steer tube intersects your middle ear. Your stem length is determined by your arm length. Imagine you are a clown at the circus standing on a giant wooden ball. Your ear must be on the pole to pole line because if you move your head a few inches off that line you fall off (see Eddy Merckx). If your bike does not fit no amount of short or long stem can fix it.

[@buch0039]

Most useful info!

[@BioStuff415]

I use the top tube and HT dimensions. The TT needs to be 540-550 with HT 130-150. Prefer higher bars. I prefer Colnago frame design. They use a large HT dimension per TT ratio. Allows fewer spacers.

[@nicholasthomas1987]

really cool video... i know more things than i did 10 minutes ago... awesome!!!

[@U.s.e.r.3493]

Great vid, thanks 👌👌

[@The2808erik]

First thing I thought when I clicked on this Video, reach and stack. Also, if you are a larger rider it's really important to look at sea tube angle on the bigger sizes.

[@olliebodcycling3484]

Helpful video, could you do a review and have a look at the carbon on the velobuild 'dogma f' style frame

[@gk5891]

Height - 187 cm Inseam - 84 cm Torso - 67.5 cm (Inseam to Sternum Notch) Arms - 66 cm (Scapula to middle knuckle while reaching forward) Feet - 280/275 mm. Can you say sloping top tube and steep seat tube?

[@grantmcalpine6364]

Another brilliant post.

[@CamNicholls]

Cheers Grant.

[@glennmcfarlane5513]

Hi Cam, By the way, what size of stem/handlebar combination is/was on your Seka Exceed RDC? I am purchasing the RDC and I am a bit shorter than you at about 174cm. I have a long reach, not simian by any means ! 😁 but just curious as you chose a medium which is what I have chosen for the RDC. I have a Colnago EPS in size 52s and it has a 120mm stem but I have wanted to step down to a 110mm. Anyway, thanks and great videos!

[@mole15]

I would also recommend checking the height from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the saddle. I have longer legs than usual humans and was between sizes L or XL. The deciding factor for my SEKA EXCEED purchase is that height. I asked cycling100 for some info and they answered this: "The measurement on your diagram is 533 and 556 for L and XL respectively. The seat post is 380mm with 70mm as the minimum insertion. There will also be a little extra in the saddle rail to the saddle surface". This means the max height for the L frame is 843mm and 866mm for the XL frame. So, I´ll buy the XL frame, slam and adjust the reach with the stem. Kudos

[@CamNicholls]

Interesting to hear Jose, thanks for sharing on the thread.

[@twillyspanksyourcakes]

"Usual HUMANS" ........ sus

[@TrkJustin]

Awesome, im buying a brand new bike this fall

[@chrisdouglas4520]

i would have thought the reach of the bars is important for when on the hoods, my current bars have a 93mm reach and new bike bars are just 76mm so a 17mm difference, I would have thought this is as important as setback on seatpost

[@davemellor4697]

If only Neil was in the uk,he really knows his stuff Cam.....

[@grantmcalpine6364]

@Neil what is your sadd;e to bar drop? Always wondered.

[@fradd4045]

reach should ONLY be compared when the stack is exactly the same

[@shus5787]

Thanks

[@robertsamuel1994]

How to choose the correct bike size -> start with a correctly sized bike

[@alanridley2917]

Hahaha

[@F15Bluto]

I thought this was the video I had been searching for. Not quite. What if I don’t have a baseline to compare? Buying my first bike - how in the world do I figure out what to buy, or if I have the right bike?

[@miatomi]

Get a bike fit.

[@sweatnosweat]

i live in barcelona, consulting neil is one of my dreams at this point, i'm 28.000euros depp into bikes now, 800euros of bike fits in 3 different places (all very serious people) and some how I still can't find my correct position.

[@dakalla]

A regular stretching or kind of yoga routine and a bit of core training helped me a lot to adapt to positions on the bike! Now in european summer i could slam that bar easily with no issues, while in winter i was waaay to stiff and had it 2-3cm higher!

[@prasetyoion3436]

I applied 10mm spacer on my road and gravel bike to make look better but dont want to slam.

[@morellish]

I'm the same length as you but would prefer a more comfortable position on the bike. Do you think a size large with zero offset seat post and a slightly shorter stem is a better option for me?

[@aneczka2114]

Do you know what's going on with cycling 100?...I pre ordered a frame 14 weeks ago and now the website is down and they don't return my emails.

[@Cyclingchoice]

The seka (m) wheel base is 9 mm shorter, so one might end up with toe overlap with wheels ? Just a thought.

[@sbccbc7471]

This is more of a problem for smaller riders, like myself.

[@ronitdebnath]

Thanks. Made a video on this 2 weeks ago. I had talked to Neil about this on Email. Glad you too made a video on this. Because you have a greater reach, it will help many people. Link to my similar video kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYfOeICJerl2obs Also I do think the effective top tube length takes care of the reach+seat tube angle on its own much better. The reach ignores the bike behind the bottom bracket and we need seat tube angle to take so into consideration. However the effective top tube length on its own takes care of both right away quite well on its own.

[@HeRoLdinHo]

So there I can choose the Size L for a height of 186 cm and 86 inseam? What do you think?

[@darkphotographer]

forgot to say that geometry chat and size are only for bike form 2000$ and up , the rest have just one nomber , or s m l , or no size

[@dakalla]

Often the cheaper carbon or aluminum frames have the same geometry as the same higher end models. Just compare on the manufacturer website.

[@dainiusdalmotas8350]

My height is 179 cm and 83 inseam. I ride teammachine SLR01 size 54, I always think I need 56. The store advised me to take a bigger size. But it seems I thought so in vain. What do you think?

[@jamesmcclain2125]

Stop second guessing , just enjoy the the bike...

[@Kcouture0827]

I can’t stress the seat tube angle enough. Learned the hard way with my 2017 TCR. It’s much too slack and I hate the fit - I feel way too far behind the pedals. My next bike will have a much steeper seat tube angle.

[@CamNicholls]

Thanks for sharing your experiences on the thread Kevin.

[@paulwilliams4990]

Nice video

[@sarahtoustra7127]

I prefer bikeinsights over geometrygeeks for the visual it provides.

[@theultimategang9992]

Sorry but that is not simple to understand. How do you reference the bike geometry figures to mine? It seems the simplicity is to use the bike geometry website!

[@T_G_C_]

Neil slammed his seat way past the limit mark, which is curious and probably unsafe, no?

[@darianbroadhead2863]

I’m 203cm tall. Really takes the guess work out of finding the right size frame. It’s either a 61cm or XL for MTB. Those are my options. 😐

[@CamNicholls]

Yep, that makes sense Darian. One of the many benefits of being tall!

[@crispyrad]

while it's true that you're likely going to need the biggest size available, not all 61cm or XL sizes are equal so it's good to compare the stack and reach between manufacturers and models to find what works best for you.

[@darianbroadhead2863]

Very true! The ONLY frame that I’ve found that fits me like a glove is a 62cm Cannondale SystemSix. That bike has a special place in my heart and will def be one I will never be selling.

[@JFomo]

Damn I wish I knew of this site sooner. I think I'm a size 54 now instead of 52.

[@CamNicholls]

I feel if you're on the border you can work with that until the next purchase! I rode a 56 for the first 5 years of my journey before realising I was actually a 54 (most of the time!)

[@JFomo]

@@CamNicholls hmm maybe I am 52 then because I'm not as tall as you.

[@philb4031]

How tall are you?

[@rayF4rio]

Looking at Neil's frame (seat rail clamping ) and your Seka choice's, I would say both of you may have picked the wrong mfg's. I first look for the correct geometry for my fit, then decide on the frame mfg based on that. Picking a frame based on paint, price or style without first nailing down the best possible fit for your body, is a recipe for problems. Of course, if you are being given the frame for free or a team bike, then your advice is correct.

[@CamNicholls]

Neill's had that bike for quite a long time! Perhaps even before he became a bike fitting guru so you're probably right. The SEKA was the right size for me though. Thanks for sharing on the thread.

[@lilpoindexter]

Im 180cm, my last bike was a LG, because of my ego, i didnt want to get a MD...but im sick of smashing my nuts when i stradlle the bike so the next one is going to be md

[@redsharkruena5441]

hi Cam i was tinking gettin an Allez sprintz shud i get size 49 or 52? i am 1.68m at present riding a Giant Tcr size S on a 90mm stem im loving it.But looking at Allez love the aero look shud i go with size 49 with a 100mm stem?thanks

[@CamNicholls]

Not sure mate, put those bikes into Geometry Geeks and see what you uncover.

[@Seahorse84]

Hi @Redshark Ruena have you already purchased, if yes in what size? I am also in same dilemma being 1.67m and going for Allez

[@lukaszbbbb]

New bike Every 3 months (in a pandemic)🤔

[@CamNicholls]

Depends what your buying. I just purchased a Trifox and Elves frame with no problem.

[@bonbonflippers4298]

@@CamNicholls curious how the trifox compares to elves, I was on the fence on the elves

[@ugghhhyoutubeisawful646]

LOL...going with a 120mm stem...good luck. every manu. on the planet is giving fu's to customers that want different bar lengths (they are almost all integrated sans 2-3). it is ridiculous and i feel like yt ppl like u do a real disservice to all of us for not being vocal about it.