A Solution to the Total War Warhammer Character Snipefest

Made in the previous patch, the points still stand although magical missiles are less reliable. A Solution to the Total War Warhammer Character Snipefest

[@purplefood1]

Character sniping has long been a Warhammer Fantasy staple though in the boardgame you have a chance to dispel it. I'd much prefer being able to place a character in a unit, feels a lot more realistic having Karl Franz leading a group of knights instead of running about solo, he's the sodding Emperor and he doesn't have a bodyguard!

[@Yarek2745]

yeah, they even tried to implement "da immortulz" for gringo, but it just feels weird with him not actually being in the unit. When the game was coming out I thought bodyguards would be a type of mount which I think still seems pretty cool

[@purplefood1]

Yarek2745 Yeah Da Immortulz was a weird one for sure.

[@breaden4381]

This is sort of like the older games where the general has a bodyguard.

[@jean-francoissoucy8340]

Except in this case, the characters jump from unit to unit and can go out alone.

[@kozam272]

Good idea, but we all know CA and their support in balancing the game :/

[@QibingZero]

This makes far too much sense for CA to implement it...

[@beyshan3659]

I do not agree. Wouldn't approve this approach.

[@beyshan3659]

+Ben B although I would like to be able to put my generals and heros into normal units. Just no "dispel" please, this sounds like an annoying feature.

[@Mithon81]

Depends how the dispell was implemented. If it is simply announced, and if you have a dispell capable unit within range of the spell, then you'd get an icon that you can click to make that unit dispell it. That way you wouldn't have to click the damn dispeller first. Add a hotkey for this and suddenly you're left with a simple split second decision to make. Doesn't sound too bad.

[@stemcg44]

I watched your video with interest. . I agree completely. . These sniping spells change the whole dynamic of the battle and not in a good way. I'm not sure about embedding your hero within a unit group, after all these are supposed to be legendary hero's and lords.. and hiding within a group of inferior units it would be disastrous. . After all hero's should be on the battlefield being. ..well ..heroic. . I like your dispel magic idea. Other options could include a very high magic resistance which again could be increased by gear or level increases. .What I think is probably the best idea is that either the cool down spellt time for these sniping spells is increased dramatically. . even to the point were it could only be cast once in the entire battle also increase its mana usage. . These are powerful spells and the mana and cool down should reflect this. I think warhammer total war has the potential to be an absolutely outstanding game. . its beautiful to watch and be involved in. . but your right. . I'm tired of micro managing my legendary Lord by running and hiding behind trees against players who are spoiling the enjoyment of the game. . I wonder if they feel truly satisfied themselves with the way that they win. . by the way love your broadcasts. . you are the voice of sensibility in an otherwise snipe ful world.

[@danisrusski6297]

The "Hero" should have a super elite bodyguard (regiments of renown) and buff the unit substantially. With a monstrous/flying mount it makes sense for them to be on their own. Pegasus is in a unit, hippogryph alone. Grongor with Immorlulz, Karl Frank with Riceguard, Thotgrim and hummers and so on.

[@DahvPlays]

I like your idea. The dispel button would light up when your opponent casts a spell, giving you a chance to react. It might also mean you try to cast cheap spells to draw out your opponents dispel so when you go for a higher cost, like FoB, you can get through Alternately, and more boring but effective, give all generals 75-80% magic resistance like Blademaster has done with his mod. This makes direct damage and magic missiles not cost effective against generals

[@DahvPlays]

And please, please CA, increase the cost of spirit leech. Please.

[@zacorydemonterey6583]

Cost isn't really the issue. The problem is that CA adapted the spell wrong. on TT Spirit leech does its damage based on the difference in leadership between the caster and the target so using it on enemy generals who usually have very high leadership is fairly difficult.

[@Matthew-lu4sf]

+Zacory Demonterey Maybe they should make it work like that so it's better for killing a retreating Lord rather than sniping

[@primagen77]

King Arthur by Neocore did it like 5 years ago. Neocore also did it in one of their Crusader games. It worked well. CA just needs to implement this intelligently. Make it so your hero or lord can choose a unit to attach to like it can choose a mount.

[@kh0rney]

they should have just lifted the magic system from Dark Omen - in that you spent mana to cast spells, and you could charge them up. eg. 1 for a fireball, or use 3 mana to cast a triple fireball. you could also cast a dispell shield on any unit per wizard, costing 1 mana per charge. 1 would deflect 1 hit, 3 would deflect 3. this of course made using magic trickier, but then the mana pool never ran out and was randomly generated in recurring cycles. really creative adaptation of the tabletop to real time

[@roberttauzer7042]

Dispelling should be implemented but not on the way you propose, it would be incredibly clumsy and would introduce new set of problems. One simple and effective step - reduce morale penalty for gen kill for 30% across the board. Dispel spell could exist too, you could cast it to remove long term effects OR cast it on unit preventive, to orbit around and protect form one spell. You could have one wizzard just for that, keeping your lord safe at all times if you wanted.

[@mariusweber4990]

I don't think CA will actually change anything about the spell system itself. They may keep nerfing certain spells so that Multiplayer doesn't totally die out, but magic to them (my guess) is already working as intendet. Warhammer (and therefore magic in it) is meant to be easy and look cool, to make the player feel like a powerful spellcaster without actually doing much. Mostlikely they will not give up that approach any time soon, but i hope they'll include your points in future games!

[@rafaelalmeida2130]

I really like how characters get an important role in TW:W and think it`s quite fun having to inevitably deal with the other`s armies characters. I feel those personal clashes are quite epic and putting characters amongst bodyguards might hinder that experience. On the other hand, the dispel thing is quite nice. It`d give character dueling an even better experience. Maybe tuning down the leadership penalty for dead lords could work out combined with that. If you had to spend some kind of resource to kill the other characters after some mindgaming, by the time a character is dead, the enemy one would be relatively spent, not killing entirely the other armies` chances of winning. Anyway, nice ideas :)

[@Rasmorak]

I'm on the fence about dispel. I'd have to think about it a little more, but it's a step in the right direction without necessarily being the solution. 100% agree on being able to attach a general to a unit though. I think CA figured the strength and power of generals in this game made their bodyguards unnecessary.

[@DIEGhostfish]

There should definitely be dispells for at least high-end direct damage spells like spirit leech and final transmutation. (Possibly even for non-spell-spells like Accusation. And POSSIBLY direct damage assassination spells, but you CAN meatwall a light-wizard assassination bolt.

[@TheIceDragon225]

Had a similar dispel idea, dispel is required in the game. Joining regiments I foresee being really finicky if not done well so at least at first, choosing dispelling / regiments instead of implementing them both at once would be for the best.Edit: perhaps a mechanic where casting too many spells too quickly decreases the effectiveness or increases the chance of miscasting (so 3 spells in a row gives a miscast chance).

[@cp1cupcake]

I was surprised that they didn't add something to go with characters choice of a mount where it gives them a bodyguard unit based on the mount picked. E.g. Empire lords get greatswords if on foot and rieksguard if on a horse, but nothing if flying.

[@sdaddsad5971]

Great vid as always dude!

[@emcdunna]

Plus you would have to click the dispell button very quickly (during the casting time).

[@mr.pancakes8502]

i really think they need to add the ability to ( like adding a mount) a special unit for your general. for example give Gimgor's Da Immortals, Sigvald's mirror guard, and so on.

[@BaderThanBad]

I honestly think the problem is that the game is too quick and arcady. If everything took longer, units took twice as long to kill and magic was half as effective it would be easier to balance out the creases. the game right now is essentially crash two lines of infantry/monsters against each other and flank any cavalry forces, ranged units have very limited value when meele units route each other as quickly as they do when several units of skirmishers take even more time to focus fire down a single unit. If meele and magic took longer to kill there would be more counter play and balance.

[@ArmandDupin]

Isn't that how the TW games have been since Rome I? I remember in Medieval, units took a long time to die, rout and flee, even when rear charged. Since Rome, it's all been about pinning down the opponent and charging him with cavarly. Plus some episodes have insane shooters (Rome II comes to mind) that wreck whole armies in minutes.

[@Knucklehead444]

+Meneldhil no, in warhammer a 2,000 2,000 game last about 5-8 min. older tw games its 10-15.

[@zealbnollbnoll1071]

I feel this dispell add-on would just be another thing to make micromanaging the game even harder. Even now I feel like tons of the General abilities could just be simplified into 1 ability, not 3 in which you use in the same time frame as the others. For instance the Speed + Vigor ability and the Charge bonus ability should just be combined to make the game alot simpler and shrink the number of horribly placed buttons around the screen in which you always misclick during a battle. I do however like to see people attempting to give solutions to the dumbass design of magic that is Warhammer.

[@Titan360]

I also hate the CPU vampires constantly healing themselves back to full health, and I'm always confused whenever they stop doing it long enough for my guys to actually kill them. It makes me ask "What the hell did I do RIGHT?"

[@zabadyboopywhatawoopy5192]

the majic al defence if you have a wizard should be increased passively for the other wizard to miscast.

[@setheus5827]

I thought they were going to do this from the start. Just like in dawn of war one just have a attach and detach button

[@ivynbean]

just give them percentage based magic resistance

[@jryxal7]

The this proposed dispell-system would be way too micro-intensive. Maybe you could let a wizard / runesmith passively protect one friendly unit/character. So you could ensure the safety of your general or protect your precious elite unit from Bjuna, etc. but not both at the same time. If this seems too powerful you could let it cost mana to stop spells. Maybe let Wizard Lords protect an area or have dispell scrolls do that.

[@zebrion5793]

I like the idea of being able to attach lords to units. I have to disagree on the dispels. If that's available, people will just run lords with mostly melee abilities (like Karl Franz) and just stack dispels. It would effectively make magic useless, and cause an instant loss to any army that runs with magic, simply because those units would not get ANY of their cost effectiveness. Lords are supposed to be powerful, and they need to tone down the magic damage vs single characters significantly, but giving opponents ways to completely shut it down is not a solution. It would just swing the pendulum the other way. I get the frustration people are having, but there has to be something in between. Magic needs to be very powerful, but also very costly - maybe offering some adjustment to the winds of magic system to make casts less frequent, but for certain factions (the Vampire Counts, mostly), magic is a very integral part of their strategy. If you take that away, they become a slower, weaker Empire without missile units. That being said, here's my solution: 1) Allow Lords to be attached, but it has to be PERMANENT. Once they are attached in the battle, they stay that way. Their HP and abilities are added to the unit, and the other stats are averaged. 2) Lords can only be attached to units of the same type. If you want a flying general, you can't attach him to a unit of spearmen. 3) Tone down the magic damage a bit. Don't nerf it into the ground, maybe like a 30% reduction. 4) Reduce Winds of Magic, perhaps half the regen speed of Winds, and reduce the starting amount to allow 1 spell at a time, so you can't chain spirit leeches or Bjunas. 5) For factions that depend highly on magic, give them some unit buffs to compensate the tremendous loss of power that's going to cause. This will shift their strategy of a magic sniping one to a more tactical unit-based approach, supplemented by magic, rather than the magic being supplemented by units the way it is now. 6) Fix dwarves

[@jean-francoissoucy8340]

I played the tabletop version and don't discount dispelling to the strategy or fun of the game. In the tabletop, you could cast more spells than your opponent could dispel. Something similar they could in the game is to have longer cooldowns of less than a minute and allow like a dispel a minute. So if you just spam 1 spell, it will go through half the time but if you vary your spell casting, your opponent will need to thinking about the spell he wants to dispel. That way, you can cast soul leech after a dispel or try to sneak it in your rotation.

[@NakMuayify]

God now I'm dying for them to add captains.

[@lindseyshamefur1282]

Or even easier for CA to implement, miscast chance on all direct damage spells. This would make these spells more of a last resort rather than a first action.

[@jean-francoissoucy8340]

magic shouldn't be nerfed into becoming a last resort, that would be too extreme in my opinion. But some kind of miscast would be welcomed.

[@ArmorDonio]

Great video

[@zabadyboopywhatawoopy5192]

the hero's themselves need to have an ability to be attached to troops.

[@Dark89Avenger]

I was really surprised when I found out that the generals have no bodyguards and were literally a moving target practice. By the look of it this was CA plan all a long . The other thing you can do about the sniping is to reduce the range of these spells(250 wtf), maybe reduce the damage they deal also and add a high miscast chance

[@samirgomeznovelo746]

create a locked group and put the hero or lord in the midle of the unit or behind or in the front, there problem solved.

[@Dark89Avenger]

Samir Gómez Novelo spirit leech targets directly for example, so it wont work with that.

[@samirgomeznovelo746]

Konrad Curze si does fate of bjuna, it would be the same what is the point?

[@Dark89Avenger]

The point is that dispeling magic should be a thing, or at least some spells need a major nerf

[@samirgomeznovelo746]

Konrad Curze yeah but what was the point with the heroes and lords then? i agree that direct damage spells need a nerf but i think its on the cost of mana and the cool down, not in the damage itself.

[@zabadyboopywhatawoopy5192]

I hide my heroes and generals in side of units all the time or have mutiple hers to stack on the general that's good.

[@MrFrostyDwarf]

honestly, CA will really let everyone down if they dont atleast give a proper attempt at fixing the cheesefest that is WH

[@rafaelrmaier]

well I havent played the TT, but I did play Mordheim (again, the PC version) and there was a very interesting feature in there which I think could be useful in stopping the magic spam: divine wrath's and such ( the other is Tzeentchs curse I think). I mean, in that game, magic feels pretty good (at least to me) : its goddamn unreliable in the lower levels, you have an actual chance to fail the casting (which TWW DEFINITELY should have), and even if you sucess (or fail), you have to roll the 'sigmar pls dont smite me' aka divine wrath, which is basically whatever god you are asking for your powers telling you to fuck off and stop bothering him. methinks it would be nice at stopping spammable magic missiles at least (i'm looking at you, shem's burning gaze --')

[@jiado6893]

For awhile I've thought that lords need either an inherent magic resistance (like all dwarf units get), or let us pay to upgrade them before the battle, like with unit upgrades and ranks. So would you have dispelling cost any winds of magic?

[@matte172]

Part of the reason i feel dwarfs are so bad is they have no general sniping haha. As well their 1600-1800 gold dwarf is SO VERY VERY bad compaired to a 1000 general on a 500 gryphon.

[@Cameron_David_]

CA will never make a balanced multiplayer game.

[@lolroflundxd]

I don't see how this dispelling could be a fun mechanic. How you described it, you would basically just stop magic from being a factor. And I am all for nerfing magic, and I play dwarfes anyway, but this solution doesn't sound fun.

[@samirgomeznovelo746]

i thought you had a new tactic lol.

[@omganotherun]

Just make it like Dawn of War 1; option to attach heroes to units.

[@emcdunna]

Couldn't you also just increase the recharge times to a lot higher so that fate of Bjuna, spirit leech and other spam spells cant be spammed?

[@zealbnollbnoll1071]

You mean you actually want to nerf Shem's Burning Horseshit. I can't believe this

[@WlLDEHlLDE]

CA, listen please!!! I want disspell scrolls.

[@jakobschoning7355]

What about dwarfs?? Do they have any ability to do something against magic? Or do they have to rely on their magic resistance?

[@robertosabado4955]

They have to rely on their magic resistance which is not enough 25% is way too low

[@kamilszadkowski8864]

i

[@jakobschoning7355]

Kamil Szadkowski Yeah. he just said that they are mehh... Although I would disagree with that

[@sawyermifsud852]

runesmiths are amazing at dispelling in the TT

[@jakobschoning7355]

Sawyer Mifsud Ahh, ok

[@TheLookatmyhouse]

We need banners from company aka tabletop banners=problem solved...

[@zabadyboopywhatawoopy5192]

I have a better solution git rid of the homing spells and let them hit other units when they get in the way.

[@SamO4rmWestHtwn]

warhammer is not fun at all. I use the dwarves only because magic takes no strategy. I rarley win