A Supposedly Fun Thing for TR-909 Enthusiasts : Comparing the RE-909 to the TR-09.

Want to needlessly pore over the sonic details of two recent recreations of the iconic Roland TR-909 ? This is the video for you.
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0:00 - Intro
1:20 - Bass Drum Comparison Dry
4:20 - Bass Drum Comparison Processed
6:20 - Snare Drum Comparison
9:00 - Low/Mid/High Toms Comparison
15:30 - Hand Clap Comparison
17:00 - Hi Hat Comparison
21:20 - Ride Comparison
23:12 - Full Beat Comparison Dry
27:53 - Full Beat Comparison w/ Overstayer Modular Channel
35:08 - Conclusion

[@alaeifR]

Something subtle that one might miss unless you've obsessed about it when recording and mixing is transients. The RE sounds so much sharper to me. Something that blew my mind was borrowing a friend's old JoMoX XBase 09. It's like an analog copy of 4 of the 909 voices - a bit different. But the point was that when sampling it at home, it sounded so much thinner and smaller than all the samples and plugins I'm used to in the digital realm... But when I ran that thing through an analog mixer, straight into a sound system (OHM In Berlin) it sounded insane! There are, to my mind, two obscure reasons. First is the transients, they're sharp, and LOUD. They CUT. Could never fake it with samples I think... It's the limited headroom, the compression, the D/A... The transients of the analog drum sounds that sound thin at home can be cranked up so loud that the transients of the drums sit way above the volume of the rest. It doesn't sound like the drums are too loud, but the drums cut through. They're focussed, razor sharp. (Had a similar experience one time when a friend played an ambient-ish live set from Ableton Live, but played a real MS-20 over the top, it just soared above everything else, so crisp, not necessarily louder.) The second reason is voodoo... There's ultrasonic energy all the way up to 60KHz if you look at high sample-rate JoMoX drum recordings. You can't "hear" this, but I believe, and perhaps it's superstition, that you somehow feel it. If we presume that an elite high-end club system has some ultrasonic capability, then it's energy in the room whether the cells in your inner ear can translate them to brainwaves or not. Your samples or you digital recreation of an old drum machine will very likely never have this X-factor. It's technically possible, but the technicians who build these things aren't shamans (only Vlad from Soma). Now, even if I took the well recorded samples of the JoMoX, and used them in a 96KHz sampler, into an analog mixer, straight into an analog amplifier in the club, it would never occur to me or anybody else that you shouldn't compress or limit them in anyway to make them big enough to sit in the mix... To make it work you'd need to make the "thin weak drums" just WAY louder than the rest of the mix, without compression or limiting, and then crank the master on the analog mixer instead. This way your transients would shoot up above the "0" level of the actual mix below. Idk how to explain this any better. Imagine you set a vritual speed limit at -12db as the "0" for all sounds, except the drums.

[@atarirob]

Very well said. Digital recreations of analog hardware are somewhat baffling to me. You can do so much in the digital realm, and a lot producers won't even scratch the surface. Instead of seeing what digital is actually capable of, a lot of us seem to chase after software recreations of the synths their heroes used, or virtual analog stuff. If you want a 909, you have to cough up the $5k and get a 909. If you want a 303, you have to cough up the $3k and get a real 303. Same goes for any piece of classic gear. That's all there is to it. Digital (be it software or hardware) recreations are imho somewhat insulting to both the original they're imitating, and neglective of what digital systems can actually do in their own right. Not to imply the TR-09 or all software emulations or whatever don't sound good - they DO, and I've used plenty in the past. But by their nature they're facsimiles of something they can never truly be. I would pick digital over analog any day - not because I prefer the sound or dislike analog hardware (I adore analog hardware, and generally prefer the sound), but because I know I could use a programming environment like Max/MSP or NI Reaktor to create something that no piece of analog hardware could ever imitate, even with a warehouse full of gear. This is why digital recreations don't live up to the original, because analog and digital are good at SEPERATE THINGS. I wish Roland would create a genuine cutting-edge drum machine or drum machine, be it digital or analog, instead of giving us digital recreations of analog gear.

[@NOLNV1]

The point about voodoo is important somehow and I have no idea what it is, but recording a perceptually, spectrally, flawless version of an analog oscillator I like at 44khz 24bit depth or higher and comparing to just hearing it directly some kind of spark is lost... I am clueless as to how since I haven't ever been able to measure it. Occasionally I wonder if ultrasonic frequencies harmonise downward to our ear or something that people either haven't researched or don't know? Because to my ears something is going on even though I know I can't even hear 17500 hz and above. Maybe there's something else? Something mysterious whether an oscillation loses something almost immeasurably subtle by being converted into sines?

[@jsonchicas]

Thanks for the vid! This is the kind of video I didn't know I needed until I watched it :)

[@LucasMarchal]

Union of nerds unite :)

[@hdsubstance1]

Portability is the key here. I have the original and same concerns about moving it. My option is the good old novation drumstation rack 1U with individual outs. Great video as always.

[@richiesantana7628]

Still have my drum station it rocks surprisingly sounds so good plus with one switch it’s an 808…. Love my og 909 but don’t sleep on the Rd9 I absolutely love it I think it’s super close to the original. But if portability is key tr09 is cool!

[@ennobehrens2608]

Great vid, very interesting how different they are.

[@LucasMarchal]

I though so too :)

[@lachrymal1707]

Many thanks! ❤

[@dxtrs_mnpltr]

It’s funny how all 909s are different. My RE has pretty quiet kick and open hat while the rim shot and ride kill the monitors at the first quarter of their throw. Totally feel you on your thoughts about the RE btw, it’s really amazing and has such a vibe, sweetspot machine! I’ve paired mine with a Perkons and they really complement each other, a match made in heaven, basically. The one gripe I have with the RE is the wobbly knobs. Not sure if your unit suffers from that but yeh.. apart from that it’s just perfect.

[@selwaymusic]

Definitley fun 😎 My general theory on the subject is that no two original 909 - or even analog clones - sound exactly the same. Especially after decades, old capacitors, many variables that might affect how they operate. So a clone of a 909 might be based on one particuluar variation of the original. And then different clones could even sound varied amongst themselves for the same reasons. My former 909, purchased in the early 90's, had very sharp clean transients, more like the TR-09 now. But I've heard other original machines that were more like your RE-909. Of course now the TR-09's digital emulation of the real thing, they can all sound identical. Makes sense that the hi-hats were phasing, they are samples to begin with. Also I noticed I heard less of a click from on the kick with the RE, playing double 16th notes - so more smooth and consistent compared to the 09 which had more snap.

[@Scherben]

Very interesting video! They really do sound completley different, cant say i prefer one over the other. A video of this quality would be interesting with a "real" 909 even tho they all sound different too.

[@LucasMarchal]

I'll try to do it with my friends' 909 when it's repaired :)

[@MordioMusic]

Thanks for the test, can’t pay for a jomox yet so maybe I get this little guy now.

[@bassywax]

oh snare in the re909 are so appealing! never been a fan of them but those sound great

[@LucasMarchal]

I'm exactly the same ! Never cared about snares in my life but when I got this one I was like oooouh, beautiful noise.

[@AThousandDetails]

:D well... it is what it is :P Portability hits us all... i went 2x Digitakt and sacrifice what ever old components do to generate that organic sound and grit. Btw you can put bigger, easier to use knobs on the TR-09, which makes it more comfy to use, especially on live. I think i'm gonna build a box with a magnet to put it on top, and a cable through cartridge hole to have a few more options on the 909... Hats pitch, kick envelope, without destroying it :D Good one Lucas!

[@LucasMarchal]

Someone sells the cartridge mod with clap reverb, kick drive and hats pitch ! Really elegant way to add more power to your 909 without destroying it.

[@peglapegla]

Do you have the link to the knobs?

[@devondetroit2529]

909 with Overstayer! Amazing

[@LucasMarchal]

the ultimate drum buss

[@cosmobiolog1488]

Hey! Do you connect every individual sounds from Tr 909 to mixer? There are 8 channels , if i’m not mistaken.

[@LucasMarchal]

I do Kick, Clap, Hat Ride and mono output for the rest so 5 in total.

[@LDRCdriver]

I need to build one of those RE-909 asap. Already built a couple Nava 909 clone...but sold them to fund other gear. The sound was ok, but not nearly as good the RE. Thanks for great the video Lucas!

[@LucasMarchal]

You're welcome ! They did an amazing job with the replicas.

[@HenriDeCarvalho]

@Malle825 same though...How does the RE 909 compare to the Jomox you had ?

[@VoltageMaze]

following

[@noisevector]

Not really comparable. Totally different sound and machines.

[@HenriDeCarvalho]

@@noisevector For sure ! i had the jomox, i wanted Lucas feedback

[@LucasMarchal]

They are really quite different. I love the immediacy of the 909 and I think all the sounds are quite magic. The AB is a great drum machine, with a good interface, beautiful design, the kick moves air like nothing else and it makes any kind of sample you feed it sounding quite powerful and dynamic. I still have it ! It's definitely one of the best drum machines out there.

[@mironovyakov9665]

Просто играй на них! Мы все очень любим как они звучат!💥💫✌

[@dzaxys4643]

Bloody lovely

[@LucasMarchal]

thank you :)

[@lukawe]

I was thinking to get the tr09 but what taken me off it was the fact that There is no individual outputs on it,, So in that case, may I ask you how u pan the sounds on it?

[@lukawe]

Have u actually got that thought as well? I always like to eq instruments and sounds Im making, just dont know how to do it with this

[@LucasMarchal]

@@lukawe you have individual outs via usb

[@lukawe]

@@LucasMarchal but how do u do it when playing hardware only? U basically dont mind having everything coming out on main out?

[@LucasMarchal]

@lukawe In a live set no I don't mind, a stereo out is fine. In the studio I only use the RE909 with separate outputs. I say all this in the video...

[@sopalen]

I met the guy who makes RE series, his name is Paul B, from UK, but lives in Sweden. RE stands for replica and i do the same thing he does but on a lower level. I can tell you this, i tried the RE-303 in a case of a TR-606 on this Berlin synth happening (can't remember that name sooperboth? yhe prolly, he nails it!!!!!!!

[@LucasMarchal]

Yep Din Sync really makes incredible things. I foresee a RE808 at some point in my future.

[@sopalen]

@@LucasMarchalI hate to say this, just get a TR-8S , it's freaking awesome. (only drum machine i do not have is the actual TR-808, but i have 3 TR808-BD in my eurorack and that thing is spot on.

[@PWMaarten]

@@sopalenNo 808 is spot on. There are revisions with longer or shorter BD decay’s and components degrade over time which make them all slightly different. I had five 808’s in my workshop for modifications and they all sounded different.

[@sopalen]

This is common knowledge! I would beg to differ they are all spot on if the are correctly tuned. (yes you might hear the difference in A/B listening but not two days apart unless something is wrong with the unit). I do design and build Euro rack modules so if i say it's spot on it's spot on end of discussion :).

[@PWMaarten]

@@sopalen IMO, nuance is important.

[@Dosxxx]

Love your vids and your music! Thanks! Just letting you know, the instagram link in your bio here leads to a dead account.

[@LucasMarchal]

thank you ! Yes I changed my name some time ago and forgot to switch the link. It's done now !

[@mrgregsully]

Thoughts on the RE-909 vs the Jomox Alphabase?

[@bassguitar2709]

jomox wins but its 4x the price of the RE909, check out the M-Base for that jomox kick!

[@mrgregsully]

@@bassguitar2709 An assembled RE-909 goes for more than the Alphabase.

[@LucasMarchal]

For the way i like to do things I prefer the magic and immediacy of the RE909. I still have the AB and I still think it's one of the best drum machines out there. There's a huge Alphabase video if you want to compare. They sound very different. No way you can replicate the 909 kick on the AB, however hard you try; but there's no way you can move air like the AB kick on the 909.

[@mrgregsully]

@@LucasMarchal Thanks for your reply. For the record I have an Alphabase.. but not a TR-909 or RE-909 to compare it to in the studio, thus the question. I think you hit it on the head about my thoughts on the Alphabase that I could quite put a thumb on myself. For the Alpha Kick, its not a 909 kick, but it does move that 'air'. So well said.. Alpha can also be harder to dial in the classic other sounds, but they are in there with their own flavor. Your thoughts on the full kit (and usability) in general? You seemed to have moved away from the Alpha?

[@mske903]

can't you push down the Sequencer Button Caps and the Rotary Knobs on the RE-909 a little further inwards? there are visible gaps. on my Steda SR-909, those Caps sit a little deeper and there are no such big gaps. so far i remember, the RE-909 uses the same Cherry Switches as the SR-909. But i must say, i like the milky Takt Switch Caps of the RE much more. it looks not only more like the original. on the Steda, the caps look a little like "wine gum" how i call it and they do not break the red light not enough. the red LEDs can almost blind you in a specific angle, because they are so dam bright. maybe i can get hands on the RE caps some time, if available again and see if they fit. anyways, your RE sounds good to me. great built.

[@Malle825]

What happened to the jomox?

[@VoltageMaze]

thats the question!

[@LucasMarchal]

It's on a shelf, still have it ! I haven't turned it on since the RE909 arrived though.

[@michaelpierce3264]

I think the re 909 would sound like a brand new tr 909

[@XerraBammos]

I actually prefer the snare on the 09. the clap is soooo much better on the RE tho, thats crazy overall I also prefer the Dinsync

[@LucasMarchal]

It hits harder on the 09, maybe it's a question of mix between the thump and the noise, the thump is definitely more prominent on the 09. But yeah Clap, there's no comparison, the RE kills.

[@t.n.3819]

The Alpha Base smokes both of them tbh. I actually miss my Tanzmaus a lot too, aside from its convoluted interface.

[@xisotopex]

some love for the tanzmaus! why did you get rid of it?

[@LucasMarchal]

All three are great drum machines. I have to say I prefer the 909 just because of its sheer immediacy and classic sounds, but the AB is infinitely more versatile. I still have it and still love it. They all sound very different from one another despite all being cream colored and voiced "towards" a 909.

[@alumenyame8351]

re909 toms sounds like proper basketballs

[@LucasMarchal]

Heavy ones

[@basiledaudet5774]

It sounds like the tr-09 is very compressed

[@stressless2007]

😂

[@dubmaverick69]

Someone maybe can let Roland borrow an original TR-909 and they can sample it and put out a proper machine for like $899, these boutiques are just toys, or just buy Lucas's sample pack.

[@noisevector]

That's not how it works. The 909 sounds organic because it has some analog sounds that sound a bit different each time you play them. Sampling them will kill that.

[@dubmaverick69]

I know that, but they dont want to make those original type machines, so I merely saying, instead of this boutique toys, make something in between and maybe allow us to put our own samples in there like Jomox. None of this new roland architecture is appealing for actual proper production, its the same story with the new Akai MPC's and their poor converters, this is standard problem in the industry, that is why when someone makes something really good, its costs about 5 times of these boutiques. Also we dont want to spend countless hours in the studio trying to mix these boutiques and taking precious studio time, when you can just bring the original of any of these Roland machines and will fit in the mix. @@noisevector

[@LucasMarchal]

Yes I have to agree, samples are great but it's not the same.

[@dubmaverick69]

They are never gone create that same machine, so it would be nice to have the original sound at least with all of those knobs effecting the sample, almost like a sampler, which we really dont have anything like this now, except for the new Akai Mpc which has horrible converter that you have to bypass. Its 2023 and we dont have a proper drum machine or workstation that is top notch. @@LucasMarchal

[@LucasMarchal]

@@dubmaverick69 That would probably be the TR8s in Roland's mind don't you think ?

[@soundswhile9529]

wow, thought the tr-09 sounded realllly good when you got to the full beat. might derail my plans to build an re-909 🥹

[@LucasMarchal]

ahah yes ! there's no denying it sounds great on its own.