A theory for how Joseph dictated the Book of Mormon with Dan Vogel part 1

#bookofmormon #mormon #lds
In today's episode I interview historian and scholar Dan Vogel. Dan and I discuss his theory for how the Book of Mormon was created naturally. We discuss his theories for Joseph's motivation to create the book, the mechanics of dictation and the sources or influences Joseph was drawing upon.
Check out his books
www.amazon.co.uk/Joseph-Smith...
www.amazon.co.uk/Charisma-und...
Dan's KZbin Channel
/ @danvogel6802
Timecodes
00:00 Introduction and recapping prior episodes
06:40 Introducing Dan's theory for composition
09:32 Dan's latest book 'Charisma under pressure'
13:24 Was their an angel or was it made up?
16:32 What were Joseph's motivations for creating the Book?
20:38 Dictating Mosiah after the 116 pages
24:18 BOM to put down false doctrines
27:07 Why create the Book of Mormon?
30:10 Lehi vs Joseph Smith sr- his Father a Universalist
35:07 Joseph telling stories of former inhabitants to his family 1823
44:06 The themes and purposes of the Book of Mormon
46:04 Joseph going to the hill to get the plates
50:17 Harmony Pensylvania and Josiah Stowel
53:20 Timeframe for BOM dictation
1:00:20 Large Plates vs Small Plates- secular vs spiritual history
1:03:16 Superscriptions or Outlines in the BOM
1:07:18 588 Pages dictated in around 60 days- 270,000 words
1:13:08 How Joseph was dictating the BOM each day
1:17:56 When Joseph was studying it out in his mind
1:20:50 Why a long and coherent narrative vs revelations
1:23:58 Seer Stone vs Urim and Thummim in translation
1:51:40 Solomon spaulding manuscript
1:58:24 Late War, First Book of Napoleon as a source?
2:05:19 Mound Builder Myth and Ten Tribes Theory
2:20:30 Apologetics on the Mound Builder Myth
2:23:50 The King James Bible in the Book of Mormon
2:30:32 Correcting names and inerrant translation?
2:31:40 Did Joseph look at a Bible?
2:38:00 Was Joseph fluent in the Bible?
2:50:00 Methodist preaching and sermons as an influence
2:57:00 Anti-Masonic rhetoric influence
3:19:08 Apologetic to Masonry
3:26:15 Final thoughts
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[@SynThenergy]

I'm entranced by the depth of knowledge of both of you. It's amazing how both of you are so knowledgeable. Dan Vogel is a walking history encyclopedia!

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Lol he is, thanks

[@mrlds3202]

Dan Vogel is the most honest analyst of the church for me, and I say that as a church member. Although I think he misses some things due to his being an atheist he is still the most unbiased observer of church history that's out there.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

For me is the best historian and also very fair in his analysis as a non believing historian. I also find him very civil to engage with :)

[@mrlds3202]

@@mormonismwiththemurphWell, he had good interactions and memories of the Church, though he fell out of belief in God. So he is the only true impartial observer, he doesn't feel the need to support any conclusion for or against the church but rather follows the evidence. And he is an 'info addict' (like myself) so he keeps following the trail like a dog with a scent and becomes obsessed with gathering and organizing his info. I do wonder though, and maybe you can ask him, given what he knows about Joseph Smith, if today he believed in God would he uphold Joseph Smith as a prophet?

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

​@@mrlds3202good question I should ask him that. I imagine his answer would be no. I don't think being atheist is the only reason he doesn't accept Joseph as a Prophet as he once was a believer. I agree he is more impartial than some critics.

[@randyjordan5521]

Dan is definitely more charitable towards Joseph Smith than most ex-Mormons are. Perhaps that's because Dan wants believing Mormons to read his books.

[@Man-jf6lz]

Dan Vogel believing Joseph Smith believed it himself, and defending him as a generally good person, helps my testimony more than anything on fair mormon.

[@randyjordan5521]

I don't believe that Joseph believed it himself, because he had been a fraud artist since he was a teenager. He came up with his gold Bible project after he was convicted of fraud on March 20, 1826. And he concocted and actively engaged in numerous other fraudulent schemes until the day he died. Now, Smith have "believed" in his abilities sorta like the Elmer Gantry model, where an evangelist came to believe that his preaching was authentic solely because he was able to attract followers. IOW, Smith "believed his own press clippings." The more people you can get to believe in your bogus claims, the more you come to believe in them yourself. I also don't believe that Smith was "a generally good person." If you study his actual life and activities outside of what they tell you in Sunday School class, you'll learn that he was not a good person at all. Many, many people who knew him intimately, and who formerly believed in him, came to realize that he was a scoundrel after getting to know him better. Think of all of the people who were among the highest leaders in the church, and who worked closely with Smith, who wound up leaving the church and wrote accounts detailing his criminal schemes, false claims, double-dealing, etc. The real man Joseph Smith is a far cry from the guy they teach you about in church.

[@barryrichins]

Do not forget that Joseph was also giving many false prophecies in which he took advantage of his people''s land and money and lives. Joseph may have been a pious fraud, but fraud is fraud and is done by lying and deception and stealing. It is my present understanding that Joseph was not a prophet of god, rather a charlatan (a person who makes a living by his power of conversation to deceive) and from the word "conversation," we get the root word "con" for "conman,'" a very good one at that. No scientific evidence has ever been found on, above, or in the ground that suggest that Lehite civilization ever existed in North, South, or Central America. If there were no Lehites, my friend, there were no prophets or people to send the message of the Book of Mormons nor people existent to receive said message. My present belief is that the Book of Mormon that you and I have probably read many times is nothing more than a 19th century production. If you ever want to how I have come to my conclusion, I suggest viewing episode 125 of the Backyard Professor where I discuss my research. Now 82 years old, I retired from my membership in the church and my college professorship 7 years ago. On the podcast I simply share my observations of what I have concluded over long religious and academic life.

[@mrlds3202]

I am writing a paper expanding on Dan's approach as to Joseph Smith as a 'pious fraud', I think you will find it edifying.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@mrlds3202 I've never agreed with Dan's "pious fraud" business ever since I heard about it around 15 years ago. Reason being, if Smith had really had some sort of religious conversion/born again experience around 1823 as Dan suggests, he wouldn't have continued to defraud people with his bogus folk-magic business until 1826, when his embarrassing court appearance forced him to back off of it. As an example of Smith's true personality and nature in the 1820s, I suggest that you read Peter Ingersoll's affidavit of his experiences with Joseph. Also, because the Book of Mormon is a fraud, that means that Smith wrote it for the purposes of fraud. Smith parlayed the BOM into founding a church and engaging in numerous other money-making schemes until the day he died. That behavior does not suggest "piety" at all. It reveals a man who merely *used* religion as a vehicle to attain money, power, and women. If you want an example of that kind of person, you should watch the KZbin video in which ABC News exposed the televangelist Robert Tilton. Reporters located one of Tilton's former college friends who said that when they were in school, they were discussing what they were going to do for a living. Tilton said "I'm gonna start a preacher scam." A lot of Joseph Smith's 1820s statements and activities indicate that his nature was similar to Tilton's. And even though Tilton was exposed decades ago, he's still on TV, and still has naive people sending him money---just like Joseph Smith's made-up religion still brings in billions of dollares.

[@jeremims9044]

@@mrlds3202 is this for your high school class?

[@Rcplanecrasher]

The Book of Mormon not being historical is such a sold well founded conclusion when accounting for all the misses as well as the “hits”. Something moving you emotionally or being inspiring does not have anything to do with historicity.

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

He's been proven wrong before. Just rehashing the same conclusions for apostates without a life.

[@stevenhenderson9005]

​@@WatchingwaitingG2DIt's fine, it's what real historians do is draw conclusions based on their understanding.

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

@stevenhenderson9005 Yes, their limited understanding. Not even a Christian.

[@stevenhenderson9005]

@@WatchingwaitingG2D You know a lot of people have faith in a Historical Book of Mormon and to the degree that faith is evidence for things hoped for and not seen, you should not expect the data to support what you have faith in and they don't. The data pretty firmly points in the opposite direction of a historical Book of Mormon, and that's not to say that anybody that has faith in a Historical Book of Mormon is somehow entirely irrational, it's just to say the data that exists right now point pretty firmly in a given direction, that's not to say it's impossible that any other position is true, it's just to say that is where the data points. Even though I do believe and support Dan Vogels work, I always like to look at multiple views to see other prospectives.

[@stevenhenderson9005]

@@WatchingwaitingG2D I'm not exactly sure if being a Christian has any real significance since Christ explains that his sheep are anyone that has ever subconsciously performed some act of kindness to at least one person.

[@lymanmoulton5809]

Fascinating and well researched. Thanks Dan

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thanks for watching!

[@harambeboy]

This was the best explanation of Mormonism I’ve ever seen. Bravo Dan.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thanks for watching

[@StephenSmith-qc3xx]

Wow.. this guys amazing!! The mental gymnastics he has to do to make his story work is 100 times more fantastic than Joseph Smith's claim of the origin of the Book of Mormon.

[@jeremims9044]

Yeah I find that he does good research, I just don't agree with the conclusions he comes to for the most part

[@GusHdzRuiz]

Though mostly I don't agree with Dan, he's a great guy, love his interviews!

[@3thingsfishing427]

There were once people who disagreed with the spherical earth model.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thanks for watching Gustavo, I like Dan and think he's a great historian

[@Allthoseopposed]

What are a few of Dan’s conclusions you disagree with? It seems to me that he uses a non motivated open approach to discover the most likely conclusion by exploring the evidence that exists and can be analyzed. No?

[@stevenhenderson9005]

​@@AllthoseopposedThat is correct. The problem most saints are going to have is the idea is that they picture Joseph as an uneducated farm boy with only a third grade education, that "can't even put two sentences together" as stated from Emma Smith. This was a fabricated narrative to make the story more miraculous. All some has to do is read the 1828 letter Joseph wrote to Oliver Cowdery in his own handwriting as well as the 1832 first vision account he also wrote and these two documents reveale Joseph's education level. Some members will make this argument that the Church said he only had a third grade education and then they will compare him to their child that is in third grade. My response is as follows: 1) So tell me about the time Joseph was going to High School with Josiah Stowell Jr. in his teen year? 2) Tell me also about what Joseph Smith's High School teacher William McMillan said about Joseph's Education? 3) When reading Joseph's letter to Oliver Cowdery in 1828 and his 1832 first vision account, please describe how educated Joseph is based on vocabulary, writing style, and comprehensiveness? 4) Now tell me about the time your third grader went to High School and wrote at that level of caliber? The Church does not say he had a third grade education, but rather three years of formal education which is not the same thing. They also admit that he was being privately tutored by family members who are mostly all teachers, especially his father.

[@jeremims9044]

​@@3thingsfishing427there are people that disagree with a great many things. Your point is ludicrous

[@kenwick7921]

The more I read the original sources and learn about the Second Great Awakening or the early 1800s, the more I seem to agree with Dan Vogel. Anyone interested in the topic needs to read his books: Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon (1986), Religious Seekers and the Advent of Mormonism (1988), Early Mormon Documents (5 volumes, 1996-2003), and Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet (2004).

[@charlesmendeley9823]

Can you give us a glimpse on what the disagreement is about

[@kenwick7921]

@@charlesmendeley9823 Believers in the Book of Mormon see it as an ancient record that Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God. Non-believers see the Book of Mormon as an early 19th century fictitious creation by Joseph Smith. Personally, the more I learn about the early 19th century and analyze the Book of Mormon, the clearer it is that the Book of Mormon is a fictitious creation.

[@mrlds3202]

I rewatched this and I was really impressed by your depth of knowledge! You have a great command of the facts and the history so much so that you could keep up pace with Dan Vogel, very impressive my friend!

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thanks 😊

[@jpenir]

I'm picking up Dan's new book about Joseph Smith "Charisma Under Pressure" this weekend. Looking forward to reading it!

[@dougvincent9076]

Murph - we know Joseph Smith had a Bible because he says he was reading it when he came across James 1:5 and gets the idea to ask God about the Churches. Luck Mack Smith mentions reading the Bible as well. They had a Bible.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

My question was specifically during the translation when he was in harmony and the whitmer home. But yes he would have read from the Bible in his youth

[@randyjordan5521]

Not to mention that the large portions of the BOM (15% of the book) which are copied from the Bible contain translation errors that are in the KJV. So obviously, Joseph Smith had a KJV Bible and copied directly from it to create his fake book.

[@jeremims9044]

He had a Bible in his childhood home. As soon as the BOM was finished, he and Cowdery went out and bought a Bible... which raises the question that if he had a Bible to use to copy to the BOM, why did he go and buy another one? And with all that money he had lying around? Yup.yup part of the big scheme.

[@TheRealHawkeye]

Dan you have awesome hair.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

He does haha

[@spenceredford4403]

Dan has broken into the mind of Joseph Smith and psychoanalyzed him better than anyone else and I think his conclusions are spot on. The Book of Mormon is a fascinating production that resonates with a lot of people even if it's not historical.

[@ericredd5590]

JS had his folksy language in original transcript, how could someone believe he would get Bible verses exact with the italicized words included with exactness without copying it directly from the King James Bible?

[@Misa_Susaki]

There's actually some evidence to suggest that that language was actually early modern English phraseology. It sounds like country talk to us today, but it was actually proper English before Joseph's time period

[@anthonymiller3869]

Awesome interview!

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thank you

[@gadb14]

That's a lovely shirt, Dan

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

I agree

[@dougvincent9076]

Murph - don’t discount the ability of people in JS day to memorize long pieces of text. They had very few forms of entertainment, and memory stunts were very popular. There were people who memorized and could quote entire books of the Bible in his day. It was not out of reach by any means.

[@loudogg73]

But Joseph Smith wasn't known to do this and that doesn't account for any of the historical, archeological, or textual overlays with ancient Hebrew land and culture.

[@boysrus61]

@@loudogg73 He wasn't known to NOT do this either. He was known to tell stories on end about Indians etc. His mother wrote about it in her history- which Brigham Young hated.

[@loudogg73]

@@boysrus61 He wasn't known to not time travel either. I'm not sure I follow your logic.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

I think Pomeroy Tucker said Martin Harris could memorise and recite long portions of the Bible. Maybe Joseph could or maybe he couldn't. I'm doing an upcoming video on Joseph's knowledge of the Bible. I think it's clear from the historical record he did read and study and was deeply familiar with the bible and attended sermons from different churches. He certainly would have had some fluency in speaking in kj language. To the extent he could recite long passages almost verbatim naturally, I don't know. Most critics would suggest the Isaiah chapters or sermon at the temple a Bible had to be consulted. Believers/non believers will disagree whether others r passages were recited naturally from memory, or by inspiration and the power of God.

[@ralfvoland506]

Excellent video. Thank you very much!

[@sdfotodude]

As usual a solid well-researched interview

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thank you!

[@jerry_phillips]

So is he saying essentially that JS was lying for the Lord?

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

You could interpret it that way under Dan's view.

[@johns1834]

No. Joseph Smith was lying for a delightful spirit and speaks of 'another' jesus, which Apostle Paul warns of teaching 'another' Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4), and and goes on to explain in verses 14 and 15; “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

[@dougvincent9076]

Murph - you have to realize that by Joseph Smith’s day, many millions of Native Americans had been wiped out by disease and conflict with the European colonists. They had been in decline for hundreds of years by the time JS was on the scene (Columbus came in 1492). So the tribes with huge civilizations and cities had been largely wiped out by then, and those who remained became largely nomadic.

[@dougvincent9076]

Very good episode! Thank you both!

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

​@@dougvincent9076thanks for watching Doug!

[@danielsorensen4540]

This outta be interesting. Thanks Murph!

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thanks for watching!

[@barryrichins]

A parallel might suggest a possibility; however, a possibility does not suggest a probability.

[@johnroberts6695]

How does Dan explain the fact that we've found the valley with the “river of water” running through it and emptying into the Red Sea? How does he explain the fact that we've found NHM (Nahom), and Bountiful? What hasn’t been discussed very much is that there are the remains of a large ancient campsite found in the valley. Pottery shards were found there dating to 500-600 B.C. (according to the Saudi Department of Antiquities). And Bountiful is just as described in the Book of Mormon. It was tropical, had an abundance of trees, ore for making tools, a mountain Nephi could commune with the Lord on, very large bees, honey, various types of grain, and inland harbors where Nephi could build a ship. Also, if one looks at a map of the family’s journey in the Arabian Peninsula, one sees that they very carefully avoid the desert, which they skirt. And how did Smith manage to include very complex chiasms and other Hebraisms in his text and memorize them in such detail? If he slipped up on a single verse, it would have thrown the rest of the text out of kilter. Yet there they are on the printer’s copy, word for word as dictated from Joseph Smith. I’d like to see Dan duplicate that. He’s educated, resourceful, bright, so it should be easy-peasy for him to knock out just one book of scripture, deceive family members, cause even one person to think he, Vogel showed them some plates _and_ an angel, then have the person swear enthusiastically to it the rest of their days! Years ago, I saw the Amazing Kreskin hypnotize three people and cause them to see flying saucers. The people were carefully chosen beforehand and Kreskin later said that the people would quickly forget seeing what they saw, and that it would become like a dream and fade away. But this isn’t what happened with the Book of Mormon witnesses. Their experiences caused them to withstand angry mobs, testifying to what they saw, even when faced with imminent death. The theories Dan offers just doesn’t hold up. The text of the Book of Mormon, especially 3 Nephi 11, describing Jesus Christ coming to the Western Hemisphere, is astounding. How could an uneducated farm boy have written it? I find Joseph Smith’s story to be far more credible.

[@johns1834]

The entire idea Jesus Christ would build his Church to stand against the gates of Hell, promising to be with us until the end of the age, then allowed His Church to fall into complete apostasy 'doesn't hold up'. Unless of course, the mormon jesus is not really Jesus and Joseph Smith describes of 'another' jesus that is NOT the Bible Jesus. Apostle Paul warns of teaching 'another' Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4), and and goes on to explain in verses 14 and 15; “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

[@saltech3444]

I commented on a video featuring Mr Blakenagel, that I thought Joseph Smith may have been dictating from written texts on loose sheaves of paper. Initially, Smith would cut the papers in half so they could fit in his hat; then as this became tedious Smith used the artifice of the blanket so he could simply dictate from the full sheets. Each time a day's dictation was over, Smith would carefully destroy the relevent sheets of the original papers. This was to prevent anyone discovering the sheets from previous days' dictation, which would have been disastrous to his operation. My theory explains why Smith was so stymied by the Lost 116 Pages, since he no longer possessed the originals and could not reconstruct them exactly enough to provide plausible deniability if the Lost 116 came back to light. Hence his preparation of replacements, which took considerable time.

[@delburroughs171]

What a genius Joseph Smith is if Dan is correct

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Indeed

[@thekolobsociety]

Does anyone know Dan’s response to the Hebraisms of the BoM?

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

We talk about it in part 2

[@kenwick7921]

Question for Dan Vogel: What are your thoughts on Wesley Walters and his "The Use of the Old Testament in the Book of Mormon" (1990). Walters thinks Joseph was influenced by View of the Hebrews. The abstract states: "the [Old Testament] quotations [in the Book of Mormon] were largely utilized to support Joseph Smith's eschatological views regarding the American Indians as being of Israelite origin. In this connection it is pointed out that the usage closely parallels the use of a number of the same passages by Rev. Ethan Smith in View of the Hebrews. . . . The closeness of these parallels, which include interpreting the same passage of Isaiah in precisely the same manner, are too numerous to be mere coincidence and therefore provide evidence that Joseph Smith was strongly influenced in his use of the Old Testament by Rev. Ethan Smith's book."

[@caseycosgriff]

"There are three possible explanations for the origin of the Book of Mormon. One is that it is a product of spontaneous generation. Another is that it came into existence in the way Joseph Smith said it did, by special messengers and gifts from God. The third is that Joseph Smith or some other party or parties simply made it all up. No experiments have ever been carried out for testing any of these theories. The first has not even been considered, the second has been dismissed with a contemptuous wave of the hand, and the third has been accepted without question or hesitation. And yet the third theory is quite as extravagant as the other two, demanding unlimited gullibility and the suspension of all critical judgment in any who would accept it" Nibley (1967) Since Cumorah pp155-6.

[@randyjordan5521]

LDS scholar BH Roberts refuted the "Nibley challenge" 40 years before Nibley even wrote it. "Moreover, on subjects widely discussed, and that deal in matters of widespread public interest, there is built up in the course of years, a community of knowledge of such subjects, usually referred to as ‘matters of common knowledge’ … Such ‘common knowledge’ existed throughout New England and New York in relation to American Indian origins and cultures…and a person of vivid and constructive imaginative power in contact with it, there is little room for doubt that it might be possible for Joseph Smith to construct a theory of origin for his Book of Mormon in harmony with these prevailing notions; and more especially since this ‘common knowledge’ is set forth in almost handbook form in the little work of Ethan Smith … It will appear in what is to follow that such ‘common knowledge’ did exist in New England, that Joseph Smith was in contact with it; that one book, at least, with which he was most likely acquainted, could well have furnished structural outlines for the Book of Mormon; and that Joseph Smith was possessed of such creative imaginative powers as would make it quite within the lines of possibility that the Book of Mormon could have been produced in that way.” (Studies of the Book of Mormon, pages 152-54) “Did Ethan Smith’s View of the Hebrews furnish structural material for Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon? It has been pointed out in these pages that there are many things in the former book that might well have suggested many major things in the other. Not a few things merely, one or two, or a half dozen, but many; and it is this fact of many things of similarity and the cumulative force of them that makes them so serious a menace to Joseph Smith’s story of the Book of Mormon’s origin.” (Studies of the Book of Mormon, pg. 240) “The material in Ethan Smith’s book is of a character and quantity to make a ground plan for the Book of Mormon …Can such numerous and startling points of resemblance and suggestive contact be merely coincidence?” (pg 242) “One other subject remains to be considered in this division … viz., - was Joseph Smith possessed of a sufficiently vivid and creative imagination as to produce such a work as the Book of Mormon from such materials as have been indicated in the preceding chapters . . . That such power of imagination would have to be of a high order is conceded; that Joseph Smith possessed such a gift of mind there can be no question ….” (pg 243) “In light of this evidence, there can be no doubt as to the possession of a vividly strong, creative imagination by Joseph Smith, the Prophet, an imagination, it could with reason be urged, which, given the suggestions that are to be found in the ‘common knowledge’ of accepted American antiquities of the times, supplemented by such a work, as Ethan Smith’s View of the Hebrews, would make it possible for him to create a book such as the Book of Mormon is.” (pg 250) Because the Book of Mormon is fiction, Nibley's "challenge" is worthless. SOMEBODY in the 19th century wrote it, whether it was Smith alone or with co-authors.

[@3thingsfishing427]

JS was a story teller. Check his treasure seeking days and the quote about him cerca 1823 from his mother's autobiography. Storytelling + the BoM claims being disproven by genetics and archeology = he made it all up, likely for his own personal gain.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@3thingsfishing427 The late Mormon scholar Grant Palmer theorized that the BOM and the church was the Smith family's vehicle to escape poverty. The entire family made more money off of the church than they could have by farming.

[@johnroberts6695]

Ethan Smith's connection with the Book of Mormon was dismissed years ago, for it fails to 1) explain the Book of Mormon’s extensive knowledge of the Arabian Peninsula; 2) its use of complex Hebraisms - such as chiasms; and 3) its consistent use of spatial integrity, such as the distance between cities and geographic landmarks. How could a fraud have dictated such while looking into a hat? It defies all logic. =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= 🎥 VIDEOS =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= kzbin.info/www/bejne/a6rNfIaXmsx_gMk kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5DKZKeId9SrnZY kzbin.info/www/bejne/e4Czd6KYZcidnNk kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZDbk6SoaryNldE kzbin.info/www/bejne/rHXMfoGoYrypbqs kzbin.info/www/bejne/eF67dGNrea17aNk kzbin.info/www/bejne/g56QcouAg72ceJo kzbin.info/www/bejne/an3Hg2p4pK5pfJI kzbin.info/www/bejne/pmrJiniworCNh7M kzbin.info/www/bejne/aYi3qISjoZ2Al6c kzbin.info/www/bejne/a3LCdIWAjp2Leck As you can tell from the above videos, the BofM is far more complex than an uneducated farm boy looking into a hat could produce, and, of course, Vogel ignores all these.

[@johnroberts6695]

Yes, but then there's the integrity issue. Joseph Smith's family believed him and backed his story. If they were a bunch of scamps, as you seem to _unjustly_ imply, the entire family backed Joseph because they cared more about “profits” than “prophets.” Joseph Smith, and several of the other brethren, spent months in an underground prison in the Liberty Jail, eating out of the same bucket they deficated and pissed in, eating spoiled food that made them vomit. And for what? The money? He could have returned to his warm home, with clean sheets and hot water. All he had to do was admit he made the whole thing up! But he didn't, and his other brethren remained there too. If he were in the religion business solely to make money, why did he endure harsh persecution? (One of his infants, in fact, died of exposure after Smith was dragged from his home by a mob, beaten and tarred and feathered.) On another occasion, he was beaten and poisoned, and one of his teeth was chipped, causing him to speak with a slight whistle for the rest of his life. The poison caused him to become gravely ill, but it didn't kill him. My point is, why would anyone want that kind of life when they didn't have to?

[@delburroughs171]

No person could ever do this work of bringing forth such a book it is God doing this work

[@ronalddunlap9933]

Give it up Vogel!!

[@fernandez3841]

Joseph's Myth

[@ronalddunlap9933]

Vogels Myth and Mythmaking@@fernandez3841

[@rdancranston]

Theories, I got theories here....everybody come get your theories... Theories everybody....

[@smb123211]

JS was a dynamic leader, great storyteller, able to hide personal faults, willing to alter or create beliefs and very creative. It worked because it was the 19th century. Outside the LDS, the BOM is seen as a work of fiction, bad writing and plagiarism (even if he did keep the KJV translation errors.) Few educated people believe Eden, Babel, Noah, Jonah or Adam is historical but instead attempts by primitive people to answer questions of origins, suffering, pain, death, languages. Every story in the BOM must be true or it fails - Babel, multiple voyages, Christianity in America, an advanced civilization of millions with streets, steel smelters, chariots, buildings, tools, pottery and weapons. None can be verified but we are certain the voyages never occurred. A 350 day voyage required massive food (fishing is impossible on a large ship at sea), lots of fresh water, anti-scurvy produce and numerous technologies required for ocean travel - compass, sextant, nocturnal, round-bottom boats, lateen sails, etc. So, if the voyages were impossible how could the BOM be true? Then there is the total absence of any object from this massive "civilization". Sorry, Charlie

[@davindecker7457]

Nuh uh

[@daleclark7127]

Always setting up the steel man arguments. This impossible voyage is just not factual. We are coming to find out the such excursions did occur and were very possible. And they are finding large populace civilizations through LiDAR technology that no one believed. What kind of pottery or physical evidence would you expect when only 10% of what we thought existed has been excavated? Old critiques that don’t stand up with time. Why be vague and dishonest with setting up incorrect assumptions?

[@Icanonlyimagn7891]

The Book of Mormon has been one of the greatest sources to bring me to Christ. To build my faith and trust in Him. It is a huge source of peace and anchor to my soul. It changes me, my intentions, my desires. I want to forgive, be patient, kind, virtuous, aware of others needs… more like Christ Himself when I read daily from its pages. I see others a little bit more through heaven’s eyes when I take time to read and ponder The Book of Mormon. It is a powerful book for good, and I cannot imagine my life with out it. I love it!! 💕☀️ 💕☀️

[@randyjordan5521]

@@Icanonlyimagn7891 None of what you wrote means that the Book of Mormon is authentic. A lot of Christians claim that they were led to Christ by all sorts of things other than the Book of Mormon.

[@ItsSnagret]

Dude, we literally believe God can split the Red Sea and do all things. He could make a voyage happen if He wanted it to. We don’t ascribe to a naturalist account of the happenings of the BOM. This argument is akin to unplugging a lamp and blaming the lamp for not being on.

[@wes2176]

Interesting how computer analysis of the Book never comes up with Joseph as the author.

[@michaelstory1292]

I thought I saw a computer analysis that said Sidney Rigdon wrote it…That same analysis also said he wrote The Federalist Papers…

[@TheYgds]

@@michaelstory1292 There are bad algorithms and good algorithms. The work on the authorial content of the Book of Mormon using principle component analysis had several controls to make sure it wasn't just a series of false negatives and positives, though it is difficult with vast data sets not to get rid of all of them at the best of times. Last I saw the work, there were several controls I believed needed to be included to firm up the data, most especially non-19th century fiction authors. Mark Twain, and his abilities in variation of voice within his texts was the only author I remember seeing that was of sufficient aptitude in creative writing to write in different voices. Some modern authors do a better job, and might be a much better control.

[@randyjordan5521]

Interesting how everything we know about the Pre-Columbian western hemisphere tells us that the Book of Mormon is a 19th-century fraud----no matter WHO wrote it.

[@bryancsimmons]

Not true. This has been proven. You just have to go looking for the studies.

[@wes2176]

@@bryancsimmons What are you talking about, Sugar?

[@bennelson7958]

I’d like to hear more discussion on the validity of many sources related to treasure digging. Much information Dan Vogel references is from the Hurlbut affidavits

[@danvogel6802]

Hurlbut was only the collector. Statements of Willard Chase, William Stafford, and Peter Ingersoll are important historical documents. Much of what they said can be substantiated in other sources not related to Hurlbut. It is an old apologetic to dismiss Hurlbut's affidavits that no serious researcher accepts.

[@randyjordan5521]

Some Mormon apologists have falsely stated that all of the reports of Smith's treasure-digging originated with Hurlbut. They of course do that in order to discredit that entire portion of Joseph's history. Problem with that apologetic is that Hurlbut didn't even join the church until 1832, and he didn't even begin investigating Joseph's background until 1833---while there were numerous reports published re: Joseph's treasure-digging beginning in 1830. A few examples: From the "Cincinnati Advertiser" of June 2, 1830: "A fellow by the name of Joseph Smith, who resides in the upper part of Susquehanna county, has been, for the last two years we are told, employed in dedicating as he says, by inspiration, a new bible. He pretended that he had been entrusted by God with a golden bible which had been always hidden from the world. Smith would put his face into a hat in which he had a white stone, and pretend to read from it, while his coadjutor transcribed." Next, from Abner Cole's "Palmyra Reflector" of July 1830: "And it came to pass, that when the mantle of Walters the Magician had fallen upon Joseph, surnamed the prophet, who was the son of Joseph; that the 'idle and slothful' gathered themselves together, in the presence of Joseph, and said unto him, 'Lo! we will be thy servants forever, do with us, our wives, and our little ones as it may seem good in thine eyes.' And the prophet answered and said---'Behold: hath not the mantle of Walters the magician fallen upon me, and am I not able to do before you my people great wonders, and shew you, at a more proper season, where the Nephites hid their treasure?---for lo! yes tonight stood before me in the wilderness of Manchester, the 'spirit', who, from the beginnings had had in keeping all the treasures, hidden in the bowels of the earth." Again from Cole's "Palmyra Reflector" of February 28, 1831: "It is well known that Joe Smith never pretended to have any comunion with angels, until a long period after the pretended finding of his book, and that the juggling [folk-magic] of himself or father went no further than the pretended faculty of seeing wonders in a 'peep stone,' and the occasional interview with the spirit, supposed to have the custody of hidden treasures: and it is also equally well-known that a vagabond fortune-teller by the name of Walters, who then resided in the town of Sodus, and was once committed to the jail of this county for juggling, was the constant companion and bosom friend of these money-digging impostors." Abram W. Benton was a doctor and Presbyterian church elder who had apparently attended Joseph Smith's "peep-stoning" trial of March 20, 1826, and also his subsequent trial on "disorderly conduct" charges of July 4, 1830. Benton wrote a summation of Smith's fraudulent activities, which was published in the "Evangelical Messenger and Advocate" on April 9, 1831. To quote Benton: "Messrs. Editors: In the sixth number of your paper I saw a notice of a sect of people called Mormonites; and thinking that a fuller history of their founder, Joseph Smith, jr., might be interesting to your community, and particularly to your correspondent in Ohio, where, perhaps, the truth concerning him may be hard to come at, I will take the trouble to make a few remarks on the character of that infamous imposter. For several years preceding the appearance of his book, he was about the country in the character of a glass-looker: pretending, by means of a certain stone, or glass, which he put in a hat, to be able to discover lost goods, hidden treasures, mines of gold and silver, &c. Although he constantly failed in his pretensions, still he had his dupes who put implicit confidence in all his words. In this town, a wealthy farmer, named Josiah Stowell, together with others, spent large sums of money in digging for hidden money, which this Smith pretended he could see, and told them where to dig; but they never found their treasure. At length the public, becoming wearied with the base imposition which he was palming upon the credulity of the ignorant, for the purpose of sponging his living from their earnings, had him arrested as a disorderly person, tried and condemned before a court of Justice. But considering his youth, (he being then a minor,) and thinking he might reform his conduct, he was designedly allowed to escape. This was four or five years ago. From this time he absented himself from this place, returning only privately, and holding clandestine intercourse with his credulous dupes, for two or three years."

[@randyjordan5521]

@@danvogel6802 Not to mention the fact that "Ensign" magazine articles have quoted from Chase's, Ingersoll's, and Isaac Hale's affidavits as credible historical sources. It's apparently never occurred to these naive Mormons who still assert that "Hurlbut invented those affidavits" that none of the 60 or so people who testified of their experiences ever recanted their testimonies for the rest of their lives. The affidavits were published in ED Howe's "Mormonism Unvailed" in 1834, but not a single one of those people ever protested that they were misquoted or misrepresented.

[@3thingsfishing427]

Joseph's mother flat out admits in her autobiography that the family was involved in treasure digging. She rationalizes their involvement by saying it didn't take time away from their (farming) duties. It's all there for you if you are interested in the truth.

[@boysrus61]

If you want to see an excellent podcast with the receipts, Mike from LDSdiscussions and John Dehlin did one on the Treasure digging in episode #1575 on Mormon Stories Podcast. It is very informative and has historical paperwork etc.

[@fsjeep611]

Please can he talk specifically about the timeline of the plates. When they were actually out under the cloth. What locations and time was this curtain ? what house was it in? When did he claim the plates were actually returned to the angel. It is so confusing because of the lost pages and the changes in location and blend and retelling of the story.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Interview already recorded but we touch on the plates and bom dictation

[@randyjordan5521]

There were no "plates." If they had existed, the Book of Mormon wouldn't have required nearly 4000 changes/corrections.

[@ItsSnagret]

@@randyjordan5521 straw man alert

[@3thingsfishing427]

I'd highly recommend the "Lost 116 pages" episode from the Mormon Stories Podcast if you are interested in those topics.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

​@@randyjordan5521depends on the nature of translation between the plates and bom text.

[@johns1834]

Big thanks to Dan Vogel for his hard work and showing the facts in so much detail. Unfortunately, most mormons won't be watching this since the LDS church tells it's membership that watching/reading anything contrary to church teachings as a sin. Not sure who Smith talked to in those woods, but is sure wasn't God and Jesus, 1 Timothy 4:1 ‘Now the Spirit expressly says that in LATER TIMES times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons’,

[@larrykelly893]

You realize his main audience is members of the church right? And we are not taught it’s a sin to watch this type of stuff 😂

[@johns1834]

@@larrykelly893 Well, some apparently are and some aren't. My daughters are still mormon and they specifically told me it was a sin for them to watch something that might be perceived as anti mormon, thus they refuse to watch. Which is contrary to other religions that encourage it's member to study other faiths for a better understanding of God and his Church. Mormons are wonderful people, but mormon theology is a sad travesty when compared to the true gospel of Jesus Christ. But mormon leadership has a long history of 'secrets' and hiding the truth from it's members. May God have mercy on their souls.

[@larrykelly893]

@@johns1834 so not true. Our church heavily encourages us to study all and take good truth from everywhere. If someone you know was taught different by some random church leader, then it was wrong.

[@johns1834]

@@larrykelly893 Well, I used to be mormon myself and know for a fact the church 'hid' much of it's ugly history, especially concerning Joe Smith, for a very long time. I also know for a fact, what my daughters are both mormon and trust them to keep their word, and they told me just last year, in regard to anything classified as 'anti mormon', is still considered a sin to read, watch, etc. But I do will give credit to the mormon church for being more 'open' within the last few years with a serious of essays released in 2013-2015. Which is available to all mormons to read, contemplate, and decide if the church is true. However, even though the essays are available, the church doesn't go out of it's way to 'advertise' them. One of those essays is titled; 'Plural Marriages in Kirkland and Navuu', which discusses Smith 30-40 wives, one as young as 14, and some of which were already married to men, and it clearly says SEX was involved and they were NOT just celestial sealing. You can read it if you want to, it is available on LDS websites. Pay particular attention to the footnotes, especially #21, which says; 'Proponents of “spiritual wifery” taught that sexual relations were permissible outside of legalized marital relationships, on condition that the relations remained SECRET.' Keeping adultery a 'secret' has been the motto of adulterers ever since the beginning of time, it always has been and always will be a sin, and nobody needs a 'special revelation' for God to know that. Enjoy. www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

[@johns1834]

@@larrykelly893 The LDS church encourages it's members to read LDS material related to other churches, and not material from those other churches. Which is biased and sort of like like attending the Northwest School of typewriter repair to learn how to be a 'Brain Surgeon'.

[@wes2176]

How did Joseph Smith predict the Civil War 28 years before it started?

[@jpenir]

The Civil War was predicted way back in the 1700s after the founding of the Republic. Not exactly a bold prediction considering slavery was a hot topic

[@wes2176]

@@jpenir That's your answer? It's ok for you to just say, "I have no idea."

[@wes2176]

In-between his prediction and the Civil War, a lot happened in the United States, we fought a whole war, the Mexican/American War. The topic of a Civil War between the states was only a theory. Joseph Smith predicted the Northern States would go to war with the Southern States, two sides clearly divided. Usually civil wars are not like that, usually many different cities and entities are fighting each other in a checkerboard of territories, like the Spanish Civil War. He predicted that the war would start in South Carolina, it did. He predicted that the South would ask England for help, it did. And he predicted that the slaves would be set free, they were. This prediction was ten times more accurate than anything Nostradamus came up with. It was prophetic indeed.

[@jpenir]

@weslines2176 "civil war was only a theory". Are you serious? It was literally all anyone talked about when it came to politics from 1789 all the way up to Lincoln's election. Have you ever heard of the Fugitive Slave Act? Bleeding Kansas? The Dred Scott decision? The question of Texas as a slave or free state? Post Mexican American war politics? I could go on and on. Any student of early 1800s US history knows that Civil War was inevitable. Slavery and its effect on America was the biggest political issue of the time. As for Joseph being able to "predict" things... if he had so much foresight maybe he could have predicted the mob that came to Carthage and killed him. You'd think if he had that ability he could have avoided that 2nd story drop.

[@wes2176]

@@jpenir He did predict his own death. He was a prophet, prophets can do things like that.

[@Ditka-89]

Before I read Dan’s book I always thought the Book of Mormon was the work of Sidney Rigden and based on the Spalding Manuscript. But I think I agree with Dan, that Joseph actually crafted the stories in his mind. It’s not that far fetched for a theologically minded young person to do. The doctrines and stories weren’t that sophisticated or nuanced in the original BofM. Also, Dan is crafting his Dude Labowski persona these days. And it’s glorious

[@randyjordan5521]

I don't completely dismiss the Spaulding theory, because the intro to Spaulding's "Manuscript Found" begins with the narrator finding a stone box in a hill, lifting the lid off of it, and finding an ancient record within it. That story is so similar to Joseph Smith's tale of finding the golden plates that it's hard to believe that he didn't borrow it from Spaulding. Having said that, various scholars from BH Roberts to Jerald and Sandra Tanner believed that Smith was talented enough to write the book on his own, based on current popular theories of Indian origins, combined with the theological disputes which were being hotly debated in Smith's home area at the time.

[@Ditka-89]

@@randyjordan5521 I can’t recall what Vogel’s book was called but it discussed how those contentious theological issues of that era were extremely bad within Smith’s household, between his parents, siblings and relatives in the years before the Book of Mormon came out. A lot of the theological ideas the BofM advocate were specifically designed to resolve the theological conflict within his own household. So I too believe Smith wrote the book, just as a practical attempt to end his own family’s issues. With that said, I can’t exclude the Spaulding manuscript or categorically rule out Cowdry’s participation in writing it with Joseph.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@Ditka-89 Agreed. I came across the book "Who Really Wrote The Book of Mormon?" about 25 years ago. It included the accounts from former acquaintances of the late Spaulding who said that the BOM reminded them of Spaulding's writings. There has been some recent research done by Craig Criddle and others which lends support to the Spaulding theory. It's clear that Smith borrowed from then-popular theories about Indian origins from such works as Ethan Smith's "View of the Hebrews". So I don't know why some people want to completely dismiss the Spaulding theory. Since we don't know every detail of the BOM's production, IMO it's best to keep researching all possible sources.

[@theincrediblerodofiron304]

Dan says Smith pondered it before dictating it to Smith. this is called having an "eidetic memory" or "photographic memory." However, it's important to note that the concept of photographic memory is still a subject of debate among researchers, and its existence and extent are not fully understood. Eidetic memory, if it exists, would involve the ability to recall visual information, such as text on a page, with exceptional clarity and accuracy. However, even individuals who have been claimed to have eidetic memory may not be able to remember every detail of an entire book word-for-word. It's worth mentioning that while some individuals may have exceptionally strong memories, memory recall is a complex process influenced by various factors including cognitive processes, attention, and understanding of the material. The idea of being able to memorize and perfectly recall an entire book verbatim is a rare and extraordinary claim that requires careful scrutiny and scientific investigation. This begs to answer. If Smith had an "eidetic memory" how was he still to maintain complete 100% continuity from start to finish? Where did he obtain his source material to be so accurate on subjects that only decades later where discovered. Even Smith incorrectly thought a;; of America as the Land Northward, the "Isthmus of Panama" was the narrow neck of land and the Land Southward was all of South America. Detailed studies of BOM over the decades point out the land covered about 40-70 square miles. Bottom line, if you think Smith did this on his own than he should be considered the world’s luckiest guesser kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJCTe36qn8ytmK8si=jDQR8rYLM7Xp0s3U The BOM is True not because of proof, but because it brings people to Christ (The Messiah). A name that is mentioned in the BOM over 260 times before his birth. Whereas the bible mentions the name Messiah only 2 times. Thats why the BOM is the word of God.

[@Ditka-89]

@@theincrediblerodofiron304 he didn’t maintain continuity from start to finish. Once the first 100 pages were stolen by Lucy Harris he wasn’t able to replicate them word for word. If he was actually transcribing the plates, he could have replicated them word for word

[@rogerpreble440]

In your introduction, you forgot to ask us what flavor, Kool-Aid we enjoyed most… Because this is a pure illustration of a Kool-Aid drinker…😂😂😂😂🎉

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Huh I don't get it?

[@rogerpreble440]

So only content you agree with his allowed ?Two times if you deleted my response!

[@ruisequeira1875]

Parallelomania taken to another level. Just more of what I read in his book, "Joseph Smith, the making of a prophet".

[@bartonbagnes4605]

Or Joseph Smith Jr. did it EXACTLY how he said. It's clear that Dan doesn't believe God has any power, so he clings to any source, no matter how scarce and unreliable, as long as it shows something other than actual miracles and godly powers. I noticed he skimmed over the Eight Witnesses, because he can't find a way to explain them away. Same way he did with other things. Even if Joseph Smith Jr. did speak fluent Bible, he definitely didn't speak the archaic english he used for the first translation, a form of english that hadn't been spoken in almost 300 years, from the 1400s A.D. to about 1550 A.D., and few examples known today of written documents using it. The retranslation many years later was the King James Version adjustments. And the way Joseph Smith Jr. debunked Social Darwinism, that Joseph Smith Jr. must have read in Origin Of The Species published about 20 years after his death. Most of Dan's arguments have more holes than a sponge, but at least a sponge can hold water.

[@jeremims9044]

Nobody wants to take this on. Bravo.

[@peterhook2258]

Any Scholar even of the faith Christian, Mormon, Jewish etc who is aware of the compositions of the OT and the NT recognizes all this reasoning as occurring in the production of Scripture, even of their own faith. The crux of the matter is does the scripture harmonize forming a complete whole or does it not. Is the "prophet" or inspired channeler (like the word or not this is what pseudepigrapha is) or the sacred compositionist (encoder of history and current belief within the context of current "scripture") authorized by God. So ..does God work like this? . And also...how transparent are we in explaining that and how transparent should we be. One thing most definitely accomplished by this method is that a person has the free choice to "feel" for the spirit or expel it. The "fruits" of the belief system then manifest for people, cultures, nations etc. By their fruits ye shall know them.

[@barryrichins]

Hey, Murph, as a man who has conducted many interviews, I want to congratulate you for your job today: Attaboy!!! Dan and I have conversed from time to time, and I find him mostly convincing; however, from my own experience of living in Europe, where I became familiar with Roman civilization and my living in Latin and North America where I became familiar with ancient American civilization; I have proposed my own hypotheses for the raison de etre of the Book of Mormon. I share my theory with Kerry Shirts on the Backyardprofessor, episode #125. I am a retired college professor, so I take my thought from my academic experiences as well a my religious.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thanks Barry :)

[@bagnasbayabas]

Can you also invite RFM, Bill Reel or even John Dehlin That would be awesome.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

What would you want me to discuss with them?

[@bagnasbayabas]

@@mormonismwiththemurph definitely about church history.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@mormonismwiththemurph You could discuss Dan's hair and shirt.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

​@@randyjordan5521it is pretty awesome!

[@soneedanap]

I'll be sure to get the popcorn ready. Dan's theories are... entertaining.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

It's a good one 👍 hopefully you enjoy!

[@soneedanap]

@@mormonismwiththemurph looking forward to it!

[@zachsimpson2008]

Dan is an intelligent guy. I think this will be a good discussion.

[@randyjordan5521]

Dan's productions are not "theories." They are historical documentation. An example of a "theory" would be these people who theorize that the events in the Book of Mormon occurred in Central America or in the Great Lakes region. Those people don't have any actual evidence that the events occurred anywhere, so everything they say is a "theory."

[@3thingsfishing427]

Are.... Based in reality.

[@michaelparks5669]

IF YOU READ THE BOOK OF MORMON IN HEBREW IT IS VERY VERY CLEAR IT IS AN ANCIENT BOOK .

[@daleclark7127]

I have listened to Dan Vogel, who I respect, for awhile. He has provided excellent historical data to help us understand the church beginnings. However, can’t buy his explanation on how the witnesses were fooled. Also, all the minutia of history that he uses to come up with his theories remind me of Fawn Brodies mind set. That explains the BoM? Why does he have a better speculative perspective than a Bushman or others that have done comparative study on JS? Sorry, Vogel is a good historian but just can’t buy the supernatural side of the restoration and has to basically justified his disbelief with theories that are more difficult to believe than the actual narrative of JS. Nothing new here and just a lot of noise as I’ve heard from Dan in the past. While evidences grow to support the BoM Dan just doesn’t offer anything new or interesting except how he takes facts and applies to nefarious or silly motives. I would recommend Don Bradley’s work on the 116 pages and if that doesn’t convince you that there is something huge rather than a fraud (sincere or not) than Dan Vogel is your guy and you can just live in the peace of being released from your belief in the con.

[@randyjordan5521]

The Book of Mormon is a demonstrable 19th century fraud. Not only is there NO physical evidence to support its story, the book is full of historical and archaeological anachronisms from beginning to end. Therefore, there is no "supernatural side of the restoration." The fact that we don't know every detail about how every word of it was produced does not mean that the book is authentic. Regardless of exactly who wrote which parts of it, the ONLY theory for the book's origin that we can dismiss outright is Joseph Smith's version of it.

[@harryhenderson2479]

More difficult to believe than the supernatural? Literally, anything naturalistic is more believable than the supernatural.

[@jeremims9044]

​@@harryhenderson2479unless it requires a number of explanations that begin to become more preposterous the deeper one gets than what the originator claims it is (supernatural). That's essentially what the poster is saying here. Obviously if you have no belief whatsoever in the supernatural then what Vogel says *has* to have occurred, even it in and of itself begins to sound rather far fetched

[@harryhenderson2479]

@@jeremims9044 I’m not sure if what Dan is suggesting actually occurred, but it’s infinitely more plausible than anything supernatural.

[@3thingsfishing427]

Not sure the intro clip really represents the content of the actual video at all.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Well I just took a couple of little clips!

[@jerry_phillips]

2:42:38 I don’t know that a word for word translation would have been as helpful as an interpretation. I think the expansionist theory makes the most sense.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

I align more with functional translation as I discuss with Brant Gardner in our interview.

[@jerry_phillips]

@@mormonismwiththemurph I’ll watch that.

[@theincrediblerodofiron304]

I was on this live premiere making some good comments. DV compares things like Smith wrote things in the BOM that were occurring at his time. Looking down at costly apparel. Using seer stones etc This is what lawyers call False Equivalence: (A dog and cat have a tail therefore they are the same thing) In debate competitions using False Equivalence are not effective and will get you minus points. DV has clearly never studied debate or trial law. Each time I pointed out these False Equivalents that were not just found in 1830 New York but found in the Bible as well. (Notice he rarely mentions the Bible) What he never mentions is the things NOT found in Smiths' 19th-century world OR the Bible but unique to the Book of Mormon during Smiths' time. ONLY many decades later the things we thought were unique to the BOM did occur in the wold somewhere. i.e. Metal Plates and Ancient Records: The detailed description of engraving records on metal plates is not a common practice in the biblical world or in Joseph Smith's time. Cement Construction: This is notable because cement construction was not widely known or practiced in Joseph Smith's time, yet the Book of Mormon describes its use by ancient civilizations in the Americas. Unique Names and Places: The Book of Mormon contains many names of people, places, and tribes that were not familiar to Joseph Smith or his contemporaries. These names often have linguistic elements that are distinct from the language of the time and were not typical in the Bible. Hebraic Literary Patterns: The Book of Mormon contains elements of Hebrew literary patterns, such as parallelisms and poetic structures, which were not widely recognized or appreciated by people in the 1830s. These patterns reflect the ancient Near Eastern style of writing. Ancient American Cultural Practices: The Book of Mormon describes cultural practices, warfare strategies, and social customs that are distinct from both the Bible and the 1830s American context. These include elements like the use of cimeters (swords), construction of fortified cities, and ritualistic practices. (only which now LiDAR is revealing in Meso-America New Teachings and Doctrines: The Book of Mormon introduces new religious teachings and concepts that were not commonly known in the 1830s or explicitly present in the Bible. These teachings often expand upon or clarify biblical doctrines. Geographical Descriptions in both the old and new worls: The Book of Mormon provides detailed geographical descriptions of lands and regions in the Americas that were not known to Joseph Smith or his contemporaries. These descriptions often include references to specific landmarks and features. Heck, no one ever heard of the Mayans until 1840. Then, DV, not once never addressed any of my points. Instead, he commented "Why are you using Sunday School reasoning, or "this is a college level discussion, why are you maing thee comments?". Its a common tactic by amateur debaters to attack the speaker rather than address the opinion. After 90 minutes, I had to leave. 90 minutes contained 5% of how DV thinks Smith Dictated the Book of Mormon. And Murph...you need to be a better moderator to keep people like DV on point.

[@danvogel6802]

I asked why you were giving Sunday school responses because you were simply cutting and pasting from the Bible one right after the other. Who does that? I also said you didn’t know what false equivalence was because it doesn’t have anything to do with analyzing texts for possible influences. There is no argument being offered for equivalence. Isolating costly apparel from the larger subject I was discussing about the Puritans and cyclical history isn’t a meaningful objection. It’s a very low-level quibbling response. Did the Jews believe in cyclical history? Again, I find myself asking: why do you give such a silly list of things I didn’t mention about the BofM? One of those debate techniques I guess, because it makes no sense for you to go there. I didn’t come here to debate. I came here to teach. You obviously came here for a different reason.

[@randyjordan5521]

" Its a common tactic by amateur debaters to attack the speaker rather than address the opinion." LOL. If you think that Dan is an "amateur," give us a list of non-Mormon professional scholars over the last 193 years who have agreed that the Book of Mormon is an authentic history of people who actually lived in ancient America. Give us a list of non-Mormon scholars who agree with the specific points you list here constitute evidence of the Book of Mormon's antiquity and authenticity. You wrote: "Geographical Descriptions in both the old and new world: The Book of Mormon provides detailed geographical descriptions of lands and regions in the Americas that were not known to Joseph Smith or his contemporaries. These descriptions often include references to specific landmarks and features. Heck, no one ever heard of the Mayans until 1840." LOL. If those geographical descriptions constitute evidence that the BOM story is authentic, then why is there one group of Mormons who believe that the events occurred in Central America, and another which believes that it took place in the Great Lakes region, thousands of miles to the northeast? You mention that we never heard of the Mayans until 1840. Since we now know pretty much everything there is to know about the Mayans---their history, kings, wars, culture, religion, animals, foods, weapons, etc.---then why do we not have a similar amount of evidence for the existence of the "Book of Mormon people," whom you apparently believed existed in the same time and place as the Mayans? The Mayan Classic Period from 200-900 AD was when they built most of their large cities and temples which have been uncovered and thoroughly researched for almost 200 years now. So where are the "Nephite" cities and temples? The Book of Mormon states that the "Lamanites" exterminated some 230,000 "Nephites" circa 400 AD. The BOM also states that those Nephites had "covered the land with cities from sea to sea." The largest city in the western hemisphere, the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan, had a population of about 200,000 in 1521. We know all about the Aztec culture. So where is the physical evidence of that similarly-sized Nephite culture who thrived as late as 400 AD? Where is the evidence of large-scale Hebrew writing, culture, religion, domesticated horse usage, wheeled vehicles such as chariots, smelted metal tools and weaponry, etc.?

[@theincrediblerodofiron304]

@@danvogel6802Look, Dan. If you want to teach. Then teach. If you dont want people to comment on your teaching then dont allow comments. But don’t call it debating.

[@theincrediblerodofiron304]

@@randyjordan5521 Most people had been comfortable with population estimates of around 5 million,” said Estrada-Belli, who directs a multi-disciplinary archaeological project at Holmul, Guatemala. “With this new data it’s no longer unreasonable to think that there were 10 to 15 million people there-including many living in low-lying, swampy areas that many of us had thought uninhabitable.” Then theres archaeologist Thomas Garrison who admits that weve are just beginning to scratch the surface when it comes to uncovering the lost societies of this people. Thats what LiDAR is telling us. Look up “How LiDAR is upending archaeology” None of this proves the BOM is true. But it sure doesnt help those that out huge doubt on the subject. Anyway, youve failed to comment on all my other points and I only brought up these points because Dan brought them up. Again, after 90 minutes less than 10 percent was dedicated to How Jospeh Smith wrote the book of Mormon. Yeah, I call that amature when you cant stick to the subject at hand and keep trailing off into all sorts of other directions.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@theincrediblerodofiron304 "None of this proves the BOM is true." Well, you're correct on that point. If the BOM story is true, that fact would have been established before the BOM was even published. The physical evidence to confirm those huge populations of Hebrew-descended people should be as abundant as there is for the Mayans, Incas, or any other large, highly-civilized Pre-Columbian tribe. We shouldn't have to wait for what LIDAR might show in the future. If no physical evidence has been found to support the BOM story in 193 years, none will EVER be found.

[@joycegrover1146]

Another tells the same stories making an entirely different story!! If your all WISE men how do you relate same stories so differently! You all claim same sources for there are are only the same sources but you come with your own conclusions! :”some people read too much in to that😊 source” ( your own words)! Sorry, but your version seems bit less reliable in my mind!

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

Oh please. Walk the fine line because he hasn't proved anything. Never could when opposed by far more knowledgeable men. The Book of Mormon had already been proved correct, far more than the Bible. Same out desperation.

[@randyjordan5521]

Really? Give us a list of non-Mormon scholars who agree that the Book of Mormon is an authentic history of people who actually lived in Pre-Columbian America. In 1993, Mormon apologist William Hamblin published an article titled "Basic Methodological Problems with the Anti-Mormon Approach to the Geography and Archaeology of the Book of Mormon." In that article, Hamblin noted that 55% of all ancient sites mentioned in the Bible have been identified by scholarly research. Please give us a list of the sites mentioned in the Book of Mormon which have been identified by scholarly research. If, as you assert, "The Book of Mormon had already been proved correct," then why is there one group of Mormons who believe that its events occurred in Central America, and another group which believes that it all happened in the Great Lakes region, thousands of miles to the northeast?

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

@randyjordan5521 not much of a source for you, is he.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@WatchingwaitingG2D If by "he," you're referring to William Hamblin, I think that that was a very valuable and telling quote from him. The modern field of archaeology has only existed for about 200 years. Many ancient sites mentioned in the Bible were long abandoned, and some were covered under desert sands, such as the magnificent city-state of Ur. The fact that 55% of all sites mentioned in the Bible have been found and correctly identified over the last 200 years helps to confirm the historicity of the Old Testament stories and people. (This of course does not mean that the supernatural/magical stories are authentic.) But the fact that during that same 200 years of modern archaeological exploration, not a single "Book of Mormon site" has been identified tells us that there is no evidence to support the historicity of the book. So your comment that "The Book of Mormon had already been proved correct, far more than the Bible" is false.

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

@randyjordan5521 Sorry, but as usual, you are repeating the same mistruths. And you know it. That's why it's of no value going back and forth with dishonest people like yourself. Your comments on the Bible aren't true. Prove Moses existed.

[@harryhenderson2479]

The BoM has been proved correct? When did this happen??? I must know! 😀

[@MRRANDOMZ11]

Why give this man a voice antis see him as their hero I have no respect for him he alone has done damage to people's faith over many years he can deny the works of God all he wants

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

My channel is all about listening to both sides. Dan is a respected scholar and historian and I've interviewed many faithful scholars so likewise want to hear from a critical scholar

[@enwoodthompson3156]

​@@mormonismwiththemurphand opinionA v l

[@randyjordan5521]

What you view as "damage to people's faith," other people see as "helping people to free their minds from religious delusion." Have you watched any of Leah Remini's and Mike Rinder's TV series re: The Church of Scientology? If so, do you criticize them for "damaging people's faith"?

[@harryhenderson2479]

Isn’t it a great thing that we can update our thinking when provided with new evidences and facts?

[@MRRANDOMZ11]

Dan like most scholars are always learning but never coming to the truth because of their ignorance

[@AlbertJLouie]

When you seek answers from the Book of Mormon instead of the Bible, God can't help you because you have turned your back on Him. Therefore this leaves the door open for Satan (II Corinthians 11:14-15) to step into your life with a false christ or prophet showing you signs and wonders to lead you away from the real Jesus of the Bible who is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity. God Himself warns us about this in: MATTHEW 24:23-24 "Then if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Christ! or There! do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect..." Mormons teach and believe that their jesus is the brother of Satan, which contradicts what God says in His Bible that Jesus is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity. So Mormons, which Jesus do you believe in? A. Your jesus of the Book of Mormon, who is the brother of Satan. OR B. The Jesus of the Bible, who is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity.

[@TheYgds]

Wow, I think you copied and pasted that....a few times. Even Ygnwie Malmsteen changes his tune every now and then.

[@AlbertJLouie]

@TheYgds You have something more to worry about than cut and paste. Like whether you are worshipping the right Jesus Christ in your life. Because knowing the true identity of Jesus Christ (John 14:6) in a world full of false christs and false prophets (Matthew 24:23-24) will mean the difference between you going to heaven or hell.

[@DrizzitDudden02]

Do you seriously think evangelizing in KZbin comment sections is going to do absolutely anything? Yeah, I agree, as someone who used to he a member, that Mormonism is a net negative in the world, but your brand of bullshit is just as bad if not worse. Fuck anyone who thinks they can speak for a god.

[@Icanonlyimagn7891]

The Book of Mormon is a powerful gift that has blessed my life beyond measure. It is an another witness to the Biblical teachings that Jesus is The Christ, The Beloved Son of God. It changes me, my intentions and desires to want be more like Christ. It is a great source of peace and anchor to my soul. I love this amazing gift from God, and how it helps me see others a little bit more through heavens eyes. ☀️💕

[@AlbertJLouie]

@Bikinigirl67676 Which Jesus are you talking about? You cannot ignore the warnings from God in MATTHEW 24:23-24 warning us about false christs and false prophets. Just because you and the Mormon church use similar Christian terms like God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, and even quote from the Bible. Satan himself quoted from the Scriptures (Matthew 4:1-11). But similar Christian terms and quoting from the Bible don't make you a Christian. Knowing the true identity of Jesus Christ (John 14:6) in a world full of false christs and false prophets will mean the difference between you going to heaven or hell. So which Jesus do you believe in? 1. Your jesus of the Book of Mormon, who is the brother of Satan. OR 2. The Jesus of the Bible, who is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity.