Responding to criticisms against the Book of Mormon with Dan Peterson

[@jasonchatham4170]

Many years ago when I was exploring the church before joining it I found Dr Peterson on a message board called Zion’s Lighthouse and also FAIR message boards. He actually helped me quite a bit in understanding and he was always willing to invest his time even though he has to be sick of answering the same questions again and again 😅. He’s a great Saint and one of the heavier intellects the critics often break themselves upon. May he continue to stand as a roadblock against falsehoods masquerading as ‘scholarship’.

[@dinocollins720]

so cool!

[@CraigNewsome.]

Such a great interview. I was investagating in 2016. Bro Dan had lots of videos on Fair, and he was quite influential in answering the challenges i came across. I got baptised in oct 2017. Im very grateful for him. And FAIR generally

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thank you, that's awesome 👌

[@MelanieVanDeGraaff]

Dan is amazing, sooooooooo grateful for him!!!

[@wendyfoster5579]

People with solid faith can get through the minutia to see what really matters and I love that.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thanks for watching

[@scottvance74]

And what is it that really matters in this case? Faith? Fidelity to commitments? Truth? Other? What is your point?

[@jerry_phillips]

2:24:14 I think that’s the goal of productions like the CES letter is to get us playing a defensive game.

[@scottvance74]

@@jerry_phillips How do you play offence? DNA evidence for the Book of Mormon? Multiple records using reformed Egyptian? It seems like defense (i.e. we're being persecuted by anti-mormons) has kind of been the primary position of the LDS church between 1833 and present. Am I missing something?

[@LeroyErickson-mr4nx]

​@@mormonismwiththemurph❤hi hi

[@brycepardoe658]

I'm not a Mormon but enjoyed this interview. I like Daniels work. What many ex Mormons interpret as nasty I interpret as mere attempts at humour. He has a similar sense of humour to myself so I often find myself laughing when I read his work. I think a lot of Mormons & Ex Mormons can be a bit uptight.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

I agree

[@danite620]

Dr. Daniel Peterson is without doubt the most knowledgeable , interesting and humble person I have ever heard talk . That is why I have listened and learned from his lectures at F.A.I.R. conferences more times than I can now count . Such a wonderful man and teacher .

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Good for you!

[@scottvance74]

Your user name really says it all. You do understand that the Danites were formed as a paramilitary group and robbed people who they didn't agree with prior to burning down their houses right? So Dr. Peterson is a hero of yours? He also seems to go for "hard hitting" tactics, but I'm not sure that's really a Christian way to approach the world.

[@DiffQ_Bro]

Dan and other professors at BYU were models on how to approach other religions.

[@davidlynnlund]

Great job, Murph! I have such respect for Daniel Peterson and I love listening to him. Your interview was excellent. Thank you!

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thank you!

[@LatterDayData]

Regarding anachronisms, wouldn’t you say the Book of Mormon itself says that it practices loan-shifting, considering Jacob 1:14? I mean, the word Lamanites started out as a reference associated with Laman, but then he specifically said that he was changing it so it became a reference to those with animosity instead of those associated with Laman. Words like “horse” are just words and they had access to those words because Nephi PHYSICALLY brought those words from the ancient near east, literally, on the Brass Plates. So, the people had those words. That’s not an anachronism, it’s a word choice. At least, it’s not like saying they “surfed the internet on iphones,” because that’s not a phrase that Nephi could have brought from the A.N.E. But a phrase like “horses and chariots” is something he could have brought and the people could have used. Even if they used it differently.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Yeah we don't know if they meant horses and chariots as we understand them today. I lean towards there probably were horses, but maybe they've not been found. There's some undefinirive findings of horses dated to bom times

[@jerrygrover8992]

@@mormonismwiththemurph Laman, like most BOM names, is metonymic and means "unbeliever". [Hebrew lōʾ-ʾēmun]” (Deuteronomy 32:20). So the whole DNA issue is really moot, as it is primarily a classification for those who did not believe, not an actual descendent issue. Also, Murph, I have heard you say that the recent horse study is not "definitive" as the study did not have actual samples of bone but relied on radiometric dating of the surrounding strata. I am a geologist, and I can tell you nearly all fossils do not have any residual organic material as they are replaced by minerals, otherwise they don't survive as fossils. So from the standpoint of geologic science, it is as definitive as all other studies of fossils and their determination of age. Yes, it would be nice to find horse fossils that had some remaining organic material that we could do radiometric dating on. But the study is certainly very definitive.

[@robbiefrantz8170]

I am not and never have been a member of the LDS Church. That being said, I love The Book of Mormon. No, I do not think its history meets my sense of the correspondence theory of truth. However, even if it is fiction, it is fiction that helps me get through to tomorrow, wake up in the morning happy to face the day. There are many kinds of truths. In my opinion, The Book of Mormon has a pragmatic truth value and I am fine with that.

[@six1nyne]

Mmm I like that that's a beautiful sentiment now here is the truth. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

[@robbiefrantz8170]

@@six1nyne John G...Thanks for your input. There are long books, thousands of them, debating what "truth" is. I am happy that you know what it is. I am glad it is simple and absolutely clear to you. You are wasting your time telling me or pointing out to me what truth is. I can do that for myself. If it doesn't meet your approval, so be it!

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

Rock on.

[@michaeldraper5105]

Thank you Murph and Dan for the great discussion and dialogue. It was very insightful and faith affirming.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thanks for watching!

[@awfulwaffle1341]

Looking forward to this one.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

It's a good one!

[@gadb14]

I really appreciate your content, good man. Let's shake hands.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Okay ❤

[@lemjwp1756]

124:00. I learned something from Dan here...the critics always say exaltation was a later development in Joseph's theology.. But Dan is right...its right there in D&C 76:56 and 58, which was early 1832. Fascinating.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Yeah that's interesting so there are allusions or seeds to it and not just necessarily a later theological development or invention

[@nathangale7702]

I totally agree that The Book of Mormon feels historical, particularly Mosiah through Helaman. Way too many examples to ignore.

[@phantom20071]

Lehi was receving revelation long before the Lord gave him the Liahona. God provides for His people the tools He knows they need in the time and situation where they are most needed.

[@LatterDayData]

On the issue of a spirit guarding treasure, is there any reason why the direction of influence couldn’t have been different than people assume? What I mean is, Joseph for four years had encounters with Moroni, while hoping to get gold plates, so if people in the community heard stories about that then to them it would sound like a story about a spirit guarding treasure. So instead of Joseph basing the Moroni story on a previous story, the stories may be THE SAME story, only told through different lenses. Four years of partial information and rumors and assumptions could create a different version which preceded Joseph’s official account which filled in details (like, for instance, that it was a book of scripture, not a “buried treasure”). But since the rumor version got out first, and developed over 4 years, it would *seem* like it was a different story but actually wasn’t. Also, since Joseph was waiting and waiting and thinking about obtaining the plates, that may have made him ancy and made him daydream about obtaining all that gold, and so searching for other gold might have been an outlet for that built-up energy. Not just for him but for others who may have had similar angst after hearing that Joseph was going to be getting gold (at the time, maybe not realizing the sacred purpose behind it) but that every time Joseph would go to get it the spirit would deny it. Also, last thought here - people probably bugged him to show them where the treasure was buried. So to get people off his back, he may have taken them to random spots and told them that’s where it was, and they wouldn’t find it so he’d tell them it was enchanted and couldn’t be found. Then people would accept that and stop bugging him about it.

[@Sayheybrother8]

Interesting points. Maybe the time you describe passing was time to come up with the story of the Book of Mormon. Maybe the people who were after the plates were mad because they had a contract with Joseph that if they found something they all dug for together they’d each get a share?

[@LatterDayData]

@@Sayheybrother8 thanks. I’m mostly pointing out that it might not be as easy to deduce wrongdoing on Joseph’s part as people might assume. In other words, what one perceives to be facts and logic may in some cases be assumptions and intuitions.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

I brought that up with Dan Vogel, I have wondered if the account from the neighbours of a spirit visiting Joseph about the plates is Joseph changing the story from a spirit guardian to an angel to make it sound more religious (critics theory coming from treasure digging), or if this is just how his neighbours understood and told the account of the angel making it sound like a guardian spirit because that was there understanding

[@LatterDayData]

@@mormonismwiththemurph interesting! did he have a strong opinion on that, one way or another?

[@Metroid-rg9pn]

You did a FANTASTIC job of compiling a lot of common criticisms! Really enjoyed this!

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thank you!

[@bartonbagnes4605]

​@@mormonismwiththemurph 0 M

[@bartonbagnes4605]

😊

[@JereKrischel]

Great set if interviews. Very enjoyable. That being said, I've been going to church for the past 4 and a half years, done all the Come Follow Me lessons, and I still don't believe in the Book of Mormon, or in any literal God. Regardless if Joseph Smith was a charlatan, or a madman, or literally in touch with the divine, the Book of Mormon still represents paths towards what I do believe are universal metaphorical truths, and the Church created under his leadership has become an organization that is a unique force for good in this world. So far, my ward family still welcomes me and my family, even if I can't pass the baptismal interview. I've been extended callings by the bishop, I participate in church activities, and I truly believe that even if you are an atheist, participating in the LDS church is a good and valuable thing (I even recently convinced one of my brothers and my adult son, both atheists, to start hanging out with the Mormons on sundays, and they've had great experiences). Even if your shelf breaks, and you can no longer believe in the historicity or truth claims of the Book of Mormon, you should still show up to church, and study scripture, and pray, even if it is only to a metaphorical God. Now, contrary to expectations, I don't believe that my lack of literal belief means that those people who do believe are defective in some way. It is entirely possible that I'm the one who is wrong, and that I either lack some sort of capacity for literal faith, or that as per "simulation theory", every bit of missing evidence was removed by supernatural means, and every bit of contrary evidence was introduced by supernatural means (the "god programmer" can add and delete objects from the database anytime they want :) ). But I do believe that the moral lessons we derive from the Book of Mormon, and participation in church, do point to universal truths that transcend whether or not there were horses in the new world, or if golden plates literally existed. And in the end, I think the reason why I've been welcome despite my faith-blindness is because I do share a common morality with the LDS Church. I do believe in repentance, atonement, forgiveness, charity, sacrifice, and love. And even if Jesus is only an extended parable, it doesn't detract from the undeniable truth of those propositions. So to all atheists out there, go to church. I recommend LDS. And for any members doing missionary work to build Zion, if you have someone who is unable to get past truth claims, or historicity, flow around that contention and come to common ground with them on the moral lessons revealed by the gospels, and the blessings of participation in regular church services with people actively trying to be better people. You may find them more amenable to joining you in the worship of our savior Jesus Christ, if they can do so metaphorically while you do literally.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

That's awesome thanks for sharing!

[@daleclark7127]

Love Dan. Amazing this supposed contentious apologetic seems to be quite civil and courteous vs. what many exmoromon influencers have said about Dan. The Best argument for the Book of Mormon is the actual text and message. Folks hoping to get a testimony by just archeological evidences or other physical evidences will fail. If your search is only materialistic then the rabbit hole never ends. You will need a spiritual confirmation as your actually witness to be firm enough to actually act against. I do love all this stuff but know by experience that your belief to action has to rise above the material side and will need a higher evidence. That’s why it is a fools errand to debate with some folks like Reels, Dehlin, Runnels etc. on these things. Their premise cannot tolerate anything where spirituality and miracles are real.

[@chrisevans9270]

Excellent Conversation! Personally, this has been by far the BEST explanations that have caused me to rethink many things in a whole new way… Thank you 🙏

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

That's good!

[@DavidSpencer-l4r]

I had exactly the same experience with divining rods. I've never used them since, but they spun in my hands as I walked over an underground spring and I have no explanation for it.

[@bfastje]

I love the bit about the translation of the poem.

[@Kaydubbbb]

On deutero-Isaiah, what about 3 Nephi 23 and 24? Would not Christ Himself update the Nephites on writings contributed to Isaiah since Lehi left? Especially those things the Lord wanted included in their record.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Possibly, but the small plates were not edited by Mormon/Moroni and even if Jesus supplied the writings it wouldn't answer why it shows up in the small unabridged plates

[@blainehowes]

I can't recall how many times I scrolled down to like this video only to find that I've accidentally unliked it and had to like it again. This was a great conversation, especially with those final thoughts. Going through a faith crisis absolutely sucks. It hurts you and the people around you, but hopefully it can help you and make you stronger.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thanks for watching, faith crisis is hard

[@shireecox122]

My dad can “water witch”, and he taught me how. My daughter can do it too. I don’t know why some people get so freaked out about it. It’s just an electrical current thing.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

That's cool.

[@mcable217]

I wish Dan had commented more on future vs already occurred prophecies in the BOM. That one seems like a giveaway for the time it’s written in. No mention of the civil war, ww1 or ww2, church growth, westward movement to salt lake etc.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

He just touched on a couple of the prophecies e.g Columbus and Joseph son of Joseph as a great latter day seer

[@mcable217]

​@@mormonismwiththemurph Yes, he addressed the idea that joseph was simply writing in history he already knew about by showing that the Columbus prophecy is at least a little more complicated than originally thought, but he didn't address the lack of future prophecies.

[@scottvance74]

13:45 "(Joseph's treasure digging associates) don't see (finding the gold plates) as unrelated to treasure digging". That's because he signed a legal contract to share the treasures that he (or others in the group) dug up. And then he digs up gold plates and doesn't share them. Sounds like a breach of contract to me.

[@gabedavis3294]

Thanks for sharing this, and thanks to both of you for being so open. It's nice to feel like there are kindred spirits and that I'm not alone.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Glad you enjoyed the interview, it was one of my favourites

[@richardbarrow4620]

So he pulled the Book of Mormon out of his hat. That simply does not change the fact that the Book of Mormon is the word of GOD.

[@andrewfranklin9519]

When you started discussing DNA I knew you'd bring up John Butler! He was the bishop in my ward when I was born and I grew up with his kids! Great guy!

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Oh that's cool

[@scottvance74]

7:30 "It's not like the stone had intrinsic power". But that was what Joseph and others told Whitmer, Harris, and other early New York converts. They believed in the stone and Joseph's ability to use it. Joseph's father also talked about the magical spectacles which belonged to the ancient giant race of the Jaredites (given them by God). Are we then to assume that Joseph was fooled by the stone & the spectacles, or that he lied to his earlier followers? In either case, it's highly problematic.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

Magical tools can't be quantified as having intrinsic powers according to a scientific or materialistic mindset. But they do matter when you're seriously trying to practice magic. Not just any old stone would do. Maybe chaos magicians roll that way, I don't know. In the Church we consecrate oil for giving blessings to those who are sick. We require that it be olive oil, we have the ritual of consecrating it, but to think that the consecrated oil has some magico-mechanical property is a superstition. There can be a fine line between superstition and belief. Sacred things are fragile. Serious magical practitioners know this.

[@Sayheybrother8]

2:24:31 FairMormon is how I knew there was an issue with the church. It’s not people lying but the shotgun method of answering a concern with a possibility of 4 or 5 answers that might explain something is problematic in itself.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

I understand it can be annoying, I too have felt there was 1 definitive answer on every question. But there isn't, there's often different explanations/interpretations and then we decide which conclusion we find most reasonable

[@Sayheybrother8]

@@mormonismwiththemurph then it’s better ab answer but a perspective that works for our particular worldview. If the worldview doesn’t include a random response then what?

[@rutht2023]

Great interview questions. Faithful clear intelligent answers. Thank you both.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@sdfotodude]

Hey Murph, notice how often Daniel name-drops someone he knows or a place he has been. If that isn't a humble brag I don't know what is.

[@caseycosgriff]

I like his approach to apologetics. Choice "C" analogy at the end was very apropos!

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

It describes quite well the process I've gone through. I often reflect on how many times I could have left the Church, how many people have left for much less than I've dealt with. It does make it hard for me to be patient with people who leave for reasons I consider frivolous, because I've solved them in my life and see that as a process of maturity - and I still see my own immaturity, and I think: if I've got so much growing left to do, yet I've come to a resolution of a gamut of problems from personality clashes down to sheer existential crisis, what's wrong with these people? It's a lesson in humility.

[@jerry_phillips]

Dan is probably my favorite scholar. I love his ability to explain things.

[@ryandahle541]

Hey Murph. On the discussion of whether Joseph Smith was using a Bible during the translation, Dan throws that out as a possibility, which it is. But it seems like the available evidence points in the other direction. The timing Dan states (about the Bible being purchased before the translation was completed) seems to be off. Matt Roper and John Tvedtnes have argued that the date of the Bible purchase was in October 1829, which was after the Book of Mormon translation was completed (not before its completion). In addition to the statements from the witnesses about him not using the Bible, as well as the noticeable absence of anyone claiming that he did (which we would probably expect to be in the record if he ever did resort to that translation approach), we also have the recent analysis of the KJV quotations by Skousen and Carmack (see NOL, Volume 3, Part 5). They show that there are numerous minor differences in the BofM's KJV quotations (many of which aren't driven by the italics) and just a few substantive ones. In many cases, the differences don't seem to make any appreciable change in meaning, and yet they seem to be far more numerous than they should be if he were simply reading off the KJB to a scribe. So, we would have to ask why so many minor changes are there. Of course, we have to ask that question for a divine translation as well, but there just seems to be a lot more unknowns under the divine translation theory, meaning there could be an explanation on that front that is totally unexpected from a mortal view of the translation. If Joseph Smith were solely responsible, however, it is harder to posit so many minor and seemingly insignificant alterations to some unknown cause. In other words, it is hard to generate a coherent reason for why he would ever make those specific types of changes. In any case, hope that helps elucidate the available evidence a little further on that point.

[@dwRS1]

I really enjoyed Daniel's explanations and detailed examples from the Bible and other scriptures. Anti's don't listen they use their own interpretation of the Bible (which ever one they choose).

[@pliniomsann]

I’ve been a big fan of Dr Petersen for a long time. Hope I can see him someday.

[@mikelight2008]

I really appreciate these videos as they help me acquire an additional perspective or more of how things can be looked at. I will say I wish at around minute 45 that when Peterson mentioned that Joseph didn't have a copy of the Bible when you started to translate what became the book of Mormon It would have been nice if he would have tied out or mentioned the Bible that Joseph read that prompted him to pray and ask God was church to join. Even if he just mentioned that that Bible went to one of Joseph's brothers or sisters. Or that we don't know what happened to that Bible. This is in this interview when he mentions that Joseph or someone went out and bought a Bible that might have been referred to with some of the passages of Isaiah. He mentions that this suggests that they did not have a Bible at the time. And how expensive they were. But then again, that brings up the question of what happened to the family Bible or the Bible that Joseph read that kicked off this hole world changing stream of events leading to the modern day church.

[@philandrews2860]

Thanks for doing this 2nd installment interview with Dan Peterson - I always thoroughly enjoy listening to his take on topics of religion and spirituality, particularly related to our faith - his knowledge base is very broad and yet detailed :) - On a side note: It's interesting that I had the exact same experience that Dan had, with divining rods (water witching) over 20 years ago. My wife had grown up with the tradition, passed on from her Dad (and he was 3rd or 4th generation LDS) who had also grown up using it to find underground water. Similar to Dan, I went into it very skeptically, as I am also very scientifically inclined (being an electrical engineer), and it worked for me as well! My wife fashioned the rods from coat hangers. I tried it multiple times with it working each time. We had been trying to find a buried, unmapped septic system with its associated buried pipes. When we dug it up, we did indeed find the plumbing exactly where we had water witched it, over a fairly large area.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

wow that;s interesting, I really want to try using one and see what happens

[@philandrews2860]

@@mormonismwiththemurph - if you do want to try your hand at it, I would highly recommend learning it in person from someone who has had previous success with it and knows what they're doing. My wife did that with me, as there are certain crucial tricks to it, such as balancing them a certain way, or else it won't work. I haven't tried it in a long time, as we haven't had any need for finding buried water pipes since then :) - Also remember that likely not everyone will have the knack or 'gift' of it.

[@rodneyjamesmcguire]

@@philandrews2860 Ah, there's the excuse..."Also remember that likely not everyone will have the knack or gift of it"....

[@vannersp]

​@@rodneyjamesmcguiredon't dismiss it so readily: there are plenty of experiments that aren't reproducible unless you follow with meticulous detail. This one has human interference as a part of the equation, which is a big problem as humans are complex and self willed. That introduces the possibility of unaccounted for confounding factors. Have you ever seen the mercury beating heart experiment? I've seen it, and I've also seen it attempted without success. There's more to it than merely dropping iodine into a ball of mercury.

[@Whatiftheresmore1314]

Once again, excellent discussion! ☀️💕

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thanks

[@DiffQ_Bro]

Chinese word for hippo is also river horse (homa 河馬).

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Oh I didn't know that

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

The magical character of the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon has been a great strength to my testimony. Drawing a line of distinction between religion and magic is kind of a political statement, a matter of attitude rather than fact. Re: horses, it's pretty firmly established that unicorns are merely rhinoceroses.

[@jamesking1971]

I learned to use devining rods as a landscaper. The water pipes I found were PVC.

[@perryekimae]

Wondering how careful Dan was in his words about horse bones in Mongol archeological sites, because, I, not an archeologist, turned up several peer-reviewed studies with a simple Google search showing horse bones at Mongol archeological sites. The evidence of horses in Mongolia extends further than that too. Not so in the Americas during the supposed Lehite era. With respect to the KJV in the Book of Mormon, I'm disturbed by two factors. 1) The lack of JST material in what is supposed to be a translation of what would be material much closer to the original than any extant documents. 2) Deutero-Isaiah and the Long Ending of Mark (e.g. anachronistic material). I will say that one of the things that I like about Joseph is his willingness to change his mind in places where he felt that he had made errors. The modern mainline Brighamite sect seems much less willing to do the same. Without the source text, any specific claims about the translation process (e.g. were idioms localized?) are just speculation. Dan can claim anything he wants about the translation, and we have no way of verifying the same. This is why the Book of Abraham translation is so important in making predictions about the quality of the translations made by the purported translator. As we learned from your most recent interview, Mound 8 is dates to the first century CE, or during the first verses of 4 Nephi. To your references to the critique that the Book of Mormon does not address major doctrinal questions that would arise after 1830, the lack of any discussion, for instance, on LGBTQ issues is one of the most significant omissions from the text, if we are to accept as factual that Nephi or other Nephite prophets saw our day. One thing I can assure you is that the people who dwelled in the place that the Nephites resided would have been aware of people doing gay stuff. Honestly, the unity of Isaiah scholarship seems about as strong, if not a little weaker, than mythicist scholarship. I don't see anything that is impossible, or even improbable, to explain on a naturalistic model for Book of Mormon origins. The witnesses aren't persuasive for many reasons, not the least of which is that eyewitness testimony is the least reliable mode of evidence. The Book of Abraham claims to be written by the hand of Abraham. It also refers to facsimiles that we've either recovered or that can be studied. Robert Ritner effectively ripped apart Gee apologetics. Muhlstein admitted to assuming the conclusion and fitting the evidence. I'm with you and Dan on the Book of Mormon's historicity being a necessary component of its truthfulness. I land in a much different area on its probable historicity. I really do appreciate the LDS viewpoint of truth being available from disparate sources. My issue with that position is around the epistemology of ruling out not true claims. I think the critic's issue with Mormon apologetics specifically is that GAs not only could and should be able to answer the biggest critical questions if they have the hotline to Jesus they're supposed to have and they can overturn apologetic positions with just a single talk. It's hard to take the apologetics seriously when they produce positions that would not be held by the institutional church. Sure, if I were to presuppose god, it would increase the probability of Joseph being a prophet. Which is why the first step in bringing me back into the church would be to show that a god exists. If Elohim exists, he knows what would convince me and is powerful to do so without infringing on my free will and is loving enough to do so. Yet, I'm unaware of any convincing evidence. To Dan's point, I lost my faith while regularly attending church, reading the Book of Mormon every day, and praying twice daily. The last of those habits was daily study. It's true that there are some serious issues without adequate answers. Dan definitely seems a decent fellow, but his last bit about some people who have left and their happiness is part of what makes critics frustrated with him (other apologists too). Things have, overall, been better out of the church for me. I have a love of Mormonism that transcends membership in any of its branches, so I've remained engaged. I also have family and friends who are in the tradition, so I've remained engaged. I've had some hard times since leaving, but things have been better. And I've had to put in a lot of work to make that happen. I can see exactly how someone could feel Dan's words, well-intentioned as they may be, as being dismissive and offensive. I have to wonder how much awareness and empathy Dan has for that view.

[@heberfrank8664]

Is anyone open to the idea that there were TWO Muhammads? The peaceful Mecca one, and the warlord Medina one. And then when the Quran was put together the Caliph merged the two to keep the followers of both together. So he could lead them to his wars to build up his caliphdom.

[@DiffQ_Bro]

I've read the Medinan surahs. Not as violent as you hear about in the media.

[@jeremims9044]

One of the most remarkable things i heard critic Dan Vogel say in your podcast on his answers to apologists at about an hour into the podcast was that Joseph Smith was not a plagiarizer, nor did he read much. He was adamant about both points, which i found both very interesting and amusing at the same time coming from Vogel.

[@user-ch9jo8mi7m]

Dan's comments on water witching is no different than if we showed magnetism to an ancient culture. They would be blown away by it because they wouldn't understand the principles of magnetism. I am sure it is the same with water witching and there is a reasonable scientific explanation, we just don't know what it is. I doubt it has any mystical powers.

[@Beastlango]

I am all for being friends with other religions, I have a deep love for Buddhism because it saved my life. Religion is my favorite subject and have studying many extensively. I almost even went school for it, I ended up doing forensic science instead. But I think he needs to re read the Quran, it even says Allah is the greatest of all deceivers. That and many other things, including the Hadith, suggest it’s satanic. When you believe in modern prophets how can you think that a man hell bent on being the last and greatest prophet isn’t part of a plan to prevent the restoration.

[@tylerahlstrom4553]

Dr Peterson’s whole professional career was studying Islam and middle Eastern languages and culture. You don’t think he hasn’t considered these arguments already?

[@Beastlango]

@@tylerahlstrom4553 I don’t know. There are many who completely ignore a lot in the Quran and Hadith.

[@TheCrush333]

What would a Meso American theorist say about 1 Nephi chapter 13. It seems to be talking about USA and not Meso America?

[@gondorr3460]

I hope Dan knows he has big fans out there, too. Maybe we should send him more fan email.

[@acalvert188]

Great episode!

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thanks for watching!

[@ThoseOneGuysInc]

With purchasing a Bible during the translation. Joseph was also receiving other revelations at the time a lot of those are in the D&C and they had a lot of doctrinal questions so it’s just as likely that they wanted the Bible because of those questions.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

I have noticed some interesting things in The Book Of Mormon that I haven't heard anyone talk about. In regards to author/s, I have noticed that it switched back and forth between first person accounts and third person accounts without error. But the most striking switch comes in the middle of Alma 5: 5, definitely worth checking out this announcement of a bouncing baby boy.👶🏻 In 1 Nephi, Nephi names the members of his family. During their journey to The Promised Land we are told two more sons have been born. But after they reach The Promised Land when he lists his family he includes unnamed sisters, meaning at least two. Several times in The Book Of Mormon individuals say that The Small Plates are to keep their genealogy, yet the closest thing we have to genealogy in The Book Of Mormon doesn't come from The Small Plates, it is the succession of Jaredite kings, with large gaps where others not of this one lineage must have been ruling, possibly an entirely different group that arrived in the Americas in a different way from a different place. And now for the most interesting thing I have discovered so far. They say The Book Of Mormon deals with issues of Joseph Smith Jr.'s day, but I have found an issue that isn't from his day, and didn't even become an issue until after his death. In Alma 30: 17 it says "And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, BUT EVERY MAN FARED IN THIS LIFE ACCORDING TO THE MANAGEMENT OF THE CREATURE; THEREFORE EVERY MAN PROSPERED ACCORDING TO HIS GENIUS, AND THAT EVERY MAN CONQUERED ACCORDING TO HIS STRENGTH; and whatsoever a man did was no crime." Now The Book Of Mormon was copyrighted and published before Darwin even set foot on the H.M.S. Beagle. And definitely before Darwin published his Origin Of A Species, that Herbert Spencer used for his theory Survival Of The Fittest, that Emilie Gautier used for Social Darwinism. I hope you found these interesting, if you hadn't noticed them already yourself.

[@redfightblue]

That verse is just Agrarianism and Prosperity Doctrine (as well as American Freedom and Idealism). Management of the creature is Agrarianism 101. That's just protecting a mans freedom to farm the land and proper from his labor. The phraseology of Darwinism comes from this religious environment, not the other way around.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

@@redfightblue There are some major problems with your ideas. First agriculture is nowhere mentioned in the verse. Though Agrarianism was a philosophy first thought of in the 1700s, it simply stated that agricultural products were more necessary than manufactured goods and should be more valuable. This verse definitely has nothing to do with sustainability of land. And Agrarianism didn't become a political idea until 1860. This verse clearly says every man for himself, the smartest and strongest should be the leaders. And Prosperity Doctrine wasn't created until after World War II, so that would only strengthen my case. If there are any similarities, they came from Darwin later on.

[@redfightblue]

@@bartonbagnes4605 Yeah, you're right. I was way off on what I thought you were saying. I thought you were promoting Darwinism and saying the BOM promotes Darwinism before Darwin published Origin. Now that I've read the chapter I see you were saying it condemns Darwinism and promotes Christianity. That is interesting. I wonder how extensive the debate was before Darwinism. I'm not an expert and haven't researched it. There certainly could be some bleed over from the "works vs grace" debate that clearly precedes Darwinism. I find that's how these things work. Ideas don't pop out of nowhere. They are a product of time and place. You also have the interesting criticism of Mormonism that claims Mormonism is an evolutionary religion and not "Traditional Christianity". Eternal Progression is often criticized for being more in line with Evolution than Christianity.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

@@redfightblue I have no problem with God creating through evolution, it makes way more sense with the Ark of Noah. Though God makes it clear Adam was created from the dust first, though the spirits of all men were created after the spirits of everything else, and after Adam was made flesh, the animals of his time were created, and afterwards Eve was created from the flesh of Adam. So it doesn't matter if men clone or splice genes or artificially hybrid, if God didn't create spirits for them before he rested, nothing man can do will make them live. But anything that does live, God had to have created a spirit for them. All that being said, if it isn't already clear that I don't believe in man from apes, I don't. But apes from man, is a completely different story. For the Bible does say that "Women shall not lie with beasts as with man, for it causes confusion." I personally believe that the more specialized animals become to fill a niche, the less they can mix with other spices. Another thing I should make clear is that I don't think evolution is random or slow, but very intentional.

[@MemyzelphandI]

Washington Irving wrote A History of the Life and Voyages of Chritopher Columbus in 1820 that argued just what Daniel Peterson stated could not have been known in the time of Joseph Smith. Honestly, this guy just throws facts out there without thinking anyone can fact-check him. His statement about horse bones never being found in an archeological dig is a five second Google search.

[@glenbarker3924]

I served in canada calgary mission and my dad served in ireland.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

That's so cool, when did you serve

[@marilynerickson1087]

Please, Murph....I know this is your channel and you can run it as you wish, and while I appreciate many of your comments, in my view you make far too many of them and they are far too lengthy. You ask thoughtful questions, and I sit here eagerly wanting to plumb the depths of your guest's mind and experiences, then feel so impatient as you repeat and paraphrase and comment at length on almost every answer they give. That said, thanks for bringing more light and knowledge into my life even if I think you could do it more effectively by talking less. 🙂

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Okay I'll take that on board. Is that on every interview or this one in particular?

[@grhowe3136]

Consider that it is not facts that bother people but it is their opinion of what the facts mean!!

[@michaeldraper5105]

Dito.😊

[@sagesaith6354]

Proverbs 10:19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise. (KJV) Sin is not ended by multiplying words, but the prudent hold their tongues. (NIV) The more talk, the less truth; the wise measure their words. (The Message) The Book of Mormon has generated more oblique obfuscating verbiage circling around one of the greatest literary counterfeits in the world than any other book I know of.

[@MemyzelphandI]

The Christopher Columbus argument at 1:30:20 is laughable. Washington Irving wrote a popular book on Christopher Columbus in 1820 that argues just what Dan is stating here.

[@jerry_phillips]

2:21:24 Someone recently challenged my spiritual confirmation of the Book of Mormon by bringing up folks who’ve had confirmation of Buddhism, Islam, etc and I am absolutely not threatened by it. See Moroni 7:13

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/nKe8e4KNi9l8qsk We talk about other peoples religious experiences in this episode. If ours is the only true and living church, why do other religions have spiritual experiences of its followers.

[@QUANTUM_QCD]

I am a never-mormon with about 1900 hours of study in the last 8 months, including reading the BoM and the prayer (no confirmation). About 2/3rd of that 1900 hours is from ex members, but the other 1/3rd is from neutral or faithful sources. I have heard Dan's name in the Ex-Mo circles and I am sure he, and maybe most of the readers of this, knows his reputation. Given that I've never actually heard his own words and beliefs from his mouth, I am going to take a listen. I'm only about 12 minutes in right now of this 3 hour podcast and I'll put my thoughts after this. I have heard that he does say that the horses mentioned in the BoM could have been tapirs. I'm wondering if I will hear that again - and I hope not...... Here goes My after-thoughts start here...... 6 months later..... Okay, so I listened to this 3 hour podcast with total concentration. I need to say that after 2600 hours of study to date, both from faithful people (apologists) and from former believers and other non-mormons. I also know that there is close to a zero percent chance that anybody's mind will be changed by my belief and knowledge. The faithful will continue to believe something even if there is complete proof to the contrary but especially if there is no proof at all, hence the nature of faith. The faithful believe their religious teachings for various reasons, but I've come to know that the biggest reasons are the rejection that will be heaped upon them by their family and friends and this is very closely linked with a phenomenon called Motivated Reasoning Due to Confirmation Bias. In simpler terms, it is group-think so that you can feel part of the group. An example: Some 21 year old guy had better damn well have that RM fire when he's on the prowl else he knows he's gonna lose out on the super cute batch of 18/19 y/o BYU girls. The pressure is just too high. And don’t tell me that men don’t lose their jobs or clients or customers if people find out that they have become doubters or Ex-Mo's because I've seen it happen. Imaging what would happen to Dan at BYU if he started doubting and lost his temple recommend. Unemployment line for certain - ask him - it's an employment requirement at BYU and other church jobs. But, back to my opinions on this 3 hour podcast. Murph certainly has heard all of the shelf items and it's obvious. It's obvious too that he is an All-In Mormon and even if there is indisputable evidence for a particular issue, he has chosen to disregard that and go with the apologetic side. That's not an uncommon position for LDS people and chances are very good that if you are reading this, you know that. Or, if you you’re your own serious doubts about a subject, like DNA, or the errors from KJV form hundreds of years into the future magically making it onto the plates way back in the past or any of the others, you know that you are not allowed to voice those out loud and especially not teach them, else you absolutely will get disciplined in some way all the way to excommunication, and then there goes your wife and your kids and your job and your house and your friends, so you'd better just shut it and do what The Murph does. My brother in law is All-In for the last 40 years and he has heard about all of these shelf items, same as all of you. But, I know from our many conversations that he has only heard of them. He has never actually sat down with the CES Letter and read it front to back. He and his friends speak of it but they won't read it and it's obvious that it is out of fear for one and that Russell said not to look at non-faithful stuff. I know that there are going to be readers of this reply that are in the same position. You and my brother in law say things like "We don't know, but we will find out after we die". That's hardly a strong testimony. It's a weak weak weak testimony and if a missionary said those words to me, I'd be feeling so sorry for him and the next 60-70 years of his life. I know that if you are an orthodox devout Mormon, you will be watching The Murph and Dan congratulate and reinforce each other for 3 hours and you too will be watching and cheering them on because it's your team and I get that. But I also know that some of you, and statistically it's 50% and climbing, will keep thinking about these things and you will secretly go read things that aren't at Deseret or over time you will watch some of the more scholarly and thoughtful Ex-Mormon long format podcasts, secretly at first, and your shelf will get heavier and heavier until one day it begins to crack. If it doesn't crack, then good for you because this is America (unless you're Murph) but I do hope that your shelf doesn't become some huge heavy burdensome mess that you drag around for decades unable to talk to anyone about because that to me is what Outer Darkness would be like. My only advice, if you dare, is to read and watch anything and everything you can get your hands on. But, take a good dose of skepticism as you read/watch to help filter out the fake and only let the true stuff in. Don't just believe it cuz some prophet mouthpiece said it because well, several of those prophet mouthpieces for God actually said that black people were not priesthood worthy, at least until 1978 when I guess the everlasting God changed his mind on that. And there are other things, but you'll find those on your own, and if you can't, Heber C. Kimball's daughter Helen can help you, or maybe Emma Smith and Fanny Alger. Yeah, you're gonna go do some Googling now, I can tell…..

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Thanks for watching, hope you enjoy the episode!

[@jerryschneider145]

Horses have always been in the Americas. I am from Idaho. What is our State fossil? The Hagerman Horse, Google it. Also the Nez Pierce Indian tribe from Idaho, famous horseman that developed the Appaloosa breed, they will tell you the horse has always breed in the Americas, and did not originate from the Spanish as is commonly thought.

[@jeremims9044]

Well, you already showed your hand with "never mormon". Appreciate your up front honesty though

[@QUANTUM_QCD]

@@jeremims9044 You may have mis-understand what the term never mormon means. There are 4 categories which are Never-Mo, Ex-Mo, Jack-Mo, and Full-Mo. Never-Mormon does not mean that I will never never ever never be mormon. It means that I was raised in some other religion and I came to hear things about mormons via stuff in my life. And no offense intended, and you may not even know this especially if you were born in the covenant, but studying all of the mormony things for the last 18 months has been the most wild ride I've ever been on. There is no shortage of intricacies from the mundane to the completely off the wall. This episode and the previous episode cover a lot of them and just like The Murph, you may have never been told about a lot of them, like Joseph's 30+ wives including a 14 y/o (Go read the Gospel Topic Essays on lds.org) or all of the likely abortions going on in Nauvoo by Dr. John C. Bennett or the starvation horrors of the push cart march or the Abraham book "translation" fraud or Kinderhook plate translation fraud or Kolob or the secret handshakes or the disemboweling blood oath endowment in the temple before 1990 or that black people were not priesthood worthy before 1978 or the guns/doomsday/prepper/food storage Lori Vallow Daybell mentality and so much more. For me, before I even started looking, I had been amused by things out in the public included the cliché stuff like watching The Osmonds, Sister Wives, 19 Kids and Counting, Shiny Happy People, Keep Sweet and then having a brother in law who became a convert in college after selling Amway and is totally-all-in and loves to talk about it when we go up to Utah to visit and promises not to get offended at anything I say which is good because I do challenge him on all of this stuff. And I definitely love our back-and-forth on the various topics, EXCEPT when he told me that if the "prophet", who I call Russell, and who is 99 as you know, told him to go get his 14 y/o granddaughter and present her to him, he would be compelled to do it since Russell is the mouthpiece of God. Not sure if you are all-in like that, but if you are, don't tell people that cuz it's creepy. He also said he'd stop eating salt tomorrow if Russell said to stop eating salt. Makes me wonder what would happen if Jim Jones, oops, I mean Russell said to drink some cyanide laced Kool-Aid. I hope from this that you can understand why there are those out there who look at the whole thing with a bit of a raised eye. When I wrote that original comment, I was at 1900 hours. I'm now at about 2600 hours and have slowed down the watching mainly because there are other long format podcasts out there on everything from particle physics to immunology to advanced math, and more. I remember right at about 2000 hours, I felt I had read and watched plenty and it was time for Moroni's promise to either be real or not real. For me, that prayer, which I am certain was very open and heart felt, came back with absolutely nothing. No feeling, no prompting, no hair standing up on my arm or neck, no burning bosom, no spiritual witness, nothing. So in short, for me, I knew that none of it was real. None. Not one word from the first vision to any teaching in the quad to the artifacts in the church vaults to any teaching from 1823 until today. Joseph made ever single last word up. That is the only logical conclusion when God chose not to comfort any concerns I may have had when I prayed Moroni's promise. Those were his rules of the game and not mine. But more importantly, if it wasn't true for me, then it MUST also NOT be true for anyone. It can't be both ways because God wouldn't allow that that kind of ambiguity between truth and lie. That doesn't come from God, but I do know who that kind of mixed up confusing logic does come from and you do to if you just think about it. And Bruce R. McConkie did say that the first vision either happened or it did not happen and if it did not, then this entire work is a fraud. Now what I am going to go back and do (again) is to listen to this 3 hour podcast and give my thoughts to Dan's words. I know now that they won't be from the faithful perspective because of what I've come to know and believe, but we are all adults and I hope we can handle it. I may have to go hang out in outer darkness because of my conclusions, but I have to live with that, but I'll be okay, really. Look for my no-doubt long reply at the end of the original comment.

[@jeremims9044]

@@QUANTUM_QCD long explanation... And I'm pretty sure Murph knows all of those things you said, as I have seen him present them in podcasts. I am also aware of this myself. I think it is rather hilarious when non mormons try to "enlighten" me about things I am fully aware of. Thanks for using up your time to try and "enlighten" me.

[@Eric-tz3nv]

It is interesting to me how (considering the discussion around minutes 13-14 or so) we think we are so different than folks in the past. There are still people today who have very strange "notions" about why things happen in the world, why they get sick, what illness is, and how things occur in the physical world. The root of it all is the curious imaginative mind of a human + ignorance = some theory. Where do these weird conspiracy theories come from? They had just as many in Joseph's day. Because of the internet, we see these amplified, and then because of the internet we see ignorance banding together and reinforcing their ignorance to the point of becoming politically active and winning elections, but I digress!

[@commoncents5191]

The promised land of the BofM is America. Horses were in ancient north america. Metallurgy check. 4 seasons, check. Tornados, check. Snow, check. Day/night/day as one, massive northern lights display, check. Cities built of wood burned to the ground, check. Migrating herds, check. Non-LDS scholars say that mesoamericans came from east Asia. I agree. I hope someday as these old professors retire that the mesoamerican model will be discarded. My copy of the BofM from early 1900’s mentions the mounds of Hopewell were from BofM in the footnotes. Joseph Smith said same as well.

[@redfightblue]

The BOM is an Ethiopian text written by Ethiopian Jews. The Land South is Africa. Jews going to Africa is mentioned repeatedly in the Bible.

[@BobSmith-lb9nc]

The BofM never mentions the "Tower of Babel." Instead, it speaks of a Great Tower, and there was nothing at all mythical about temple towers being built in Mesopotamia by the Sumerians and Akkadians. We have their extensive archeological remains. The confusion of tongues story is another matter and must be accounted for as typical etiological story-telling. The Jaredites would have been heir to that same traditional account.

[@Rabano_Yodado]

I think Joseph was a very smart person. The fact that this man cannot replicate the book of Mormon, doesnt mean nobody is capable of producing it. It would be like saying noone can come up with the general relativity theory because i can't conceive it myself. Joseph was young, no tv, loved the story telling, etc. Dan's situation is different, older with many other responsibilities. So, he cannot compare himself and Say it wasnt possible for Joseph to come up himself with the book of Mormon and conclude it had to come from God. Joseph produced such a book that we like to praise him for it, inflating his talent to impossible without heavenly help. But it could really be different, a person like Joseph, with his type of life and talent could come up with the book. Yes

[@Sayheybrother8]

Dan expresses that living in the church is a pretty good place to be but for some of us we want to be in the place that Christ taught us to be and Paul taught us to be. That’s why sone of us who believe in God and the Savior are concerned about the contradictions of the history of the church. I feel I’m coming from a God fearing and honest position that no apologist respects. Those like me are treated like we’re anti Mormon devils that have no interest but to sin or tear down the church.

[@lemjwp1756]

A close examination of the Bible and early history of the Christian church after the apostles reveals just as many inconsistencies and contradictions. At least that's what my research has found.

[@Sayheybrother8]

@@lemjwp1756 yes the Bible has contradictions but not when teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon has anachronisms but they don’t change the clear truths of it when talking about the power of repentance and the atonement of Christ. The hidden history, the contradictions and the similarities between what the church used to call anti Mormon lies that are now in the gospel topics essays was really the last straw. But there’s more and we don’t even need to really go through that but the idea Christ will need 200 billion dollars during the millennium tells me where the focus of the church is…not in Jesus Christ.

[@lemjwp1756]

The Bible is notoriously unclear about its doctrine... thus differing interpretations among 47,000 denominations. Thus differing Bible translations. Thus the need for the Nicean Council and other councils to try to sort out interpretations. Thus the need for the Reformation. You don't posses the necessary knowledge about the financial issues to make informed conclusions... simply accusations. The church does enormous humanitarian good in the world. Third world countries benefit from the generous tithing of the members, for aid, buildings, programs, temples. Saving a percentage for future uncertanties only makes sense to any honest, thinking person.

[@therisingknighttruewarrior4551]

Interesting perspective, it seems that Paul is second from Christ? Other apostles wrote letters and books, aren't they as important as Paul? Evangelicals seem to idolize Paul a lot. Just saying.

[@dcarts5616]

⁠@@Sayheybrother8I’m an idiot. But I want to comment on this. $200 billion is a lot. I actually bet it’s more and is a show of obedience to live within our means. It costs about ~$6 billion to run the church a year I gather. Saving/investing $1 billion a year is logical, especially with world economic collapse coming, let’s say that in the near future the church starts collecting less and less tithes and offerings each year, such is highly possible especially with how many are leaving all faiths and especially the LDS church, coming mass job losses, wars coming, hyper inflation world wide after poorly thought out reactions to the bioweapon of 2020 etc. Are you telling me that you don’t think the church will need all the money saved and invested to get it through what is coming? It will be able to run as is for the long future, assuming it’s land and banking funds and investments aren’t stolen by hostile governments and incoming invaders or what not? People who have a problem with this are unhinged and I can’t take serious. But hey, I’m sure this whistleblower and his group of scoffers who stand to gain 30% of money “seized” will donate it ALL to charity. I’m sure of it.

[@clintonlemarluke1507]

The Angelic Origin of the Book of Mormon forces us to acknowledged the imprimatur of Christ, that it is not only an authentic, ancient document, but it also contains His true Gospel Doctrine.

[@phantom20071]

Hmm. I wonder about quotes from Isaiah in View of the Hebrews. Are they direct quotes from the KJV or do they differ in some way? The Book of Mormon quotes from Isaiah have different text--in some cases significantly so--from the KJV. In addition, Nephi introduces the quotes from Isaiah in 2 Nephi 11. If Joseph "intended" to plagiarize Isaiah he did a really poor job of it.

[@quemaspana]

Dan, there is NO evidence that horses existed in Book of Mormon times.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

No definitive evidence, I did a video of a recent study dating the strata around horse bones in Mexico dating to bom times. But it's not conclusive

[@quemaspana]

@@mormonismwiththemurph Yeah, it's also not conclusive that there are fairy's in the garden, or that bigfoot exists. I'm not trying to mock, just pointing out that the evidence for both is about the same and that it impossible to prove a negative. The evidence for horses in Book of Mormon times is overwhelmingly lacking, and there is clear evidences that horse populations went extinct thousands of years prior.

[@markgrammer]

I'm so sorry you talked to Jacob Hansen. ;)

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Why?

[@mikeyant2445]

I have several reasons I am not LDS, but there is a big one that kind of trumps the others. God has never demonstrated that He judges through any other book than the Bible. In the Bible He has pronounced judgments against cities and civilizations … time passed…and those specified judgments happen. Therefore I know to take the commandments of the Bible seriously, because God will judge me on them, just as really as He judged those cities and civilizations. On the other hand, since God never judged through the Quran, through the Hindu scriptures, through the Book of Mormon, etc… there is no reason to suggest He will judge me through them. It would be like studying English Lit, the week before a grade altering Physics test.

[@chemnitzfan654]

Is this Richard Nygren?

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Nope.

[@chemnitzfan654]

@@mormonismwiththemurph are you sure? Lol

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

@@chemnitzfan654 Robert Boylan and another guy (can't remember his name), owned up to creating the profile!

[@chemnitzfan654]

@Mormonism with the Murph Peterson certainly commented on it. I don't Boylan owned up to anything in his carefully worded deflection.

[@enidallred]

We need to distinquish between possibilities and probabilities. I watch this and see too many things that end up being possibilities when in reality you put it all together and the probabilities of Joseph making things up are much higher than the prossibilities. If you tribal or bias that is how you distinquish between them. You need to put things into terms of probabilities not possibilities.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

In your View what is the probability of the witnesses of the plates all having a mass hallucination/vision, the bom prophesying 3 witnesses would see the plates by the power of God, Joseph manufacturing a fake set of plates tricking the 8 witnesses. While it seems possible Joseph could be lucky prophesying this, the witnesses could all hallucinate the same thing, despite testifying until there death bed they saw the angel and the plates. The Book of Mormon speaking of Lehis travel through the Arabian desert matching extremely well with the incense trail, Nahom being a burial site which is in the right location, it matches Ishmael being buried at a place called Nahom, nahom meaning in Hebrew 'to mourn' and the daughters of Ishmael did mourn for Ishmael, and a location for Bountiful matching the descriptions of Nephis Bountiful with ore, honey, mountain and lush coastal paradise which critics mocked for years. This also being in the right location to which the text specifies. Its possible this is a coincidence, but it seems probable that the convergence and correspondences point to there being a correlation and ancient travel. Names in the book of Mormon having ancient sametic origin e.g Nephi, Ammon and names like Pahoran. Jershon being a land of inheritance and meaning land of inheritance in Hebrew. Its possible but seems highly improbable Joseph would know this. The chapter long chiasmus in Alma 36, pointing to ancient Hebrew writing and also the difficulty of orally dictating this on the fly, again possible but seems highly improbable. Joseph listing 30 King's in Ether 1 and then speaking about each one in reverse order, which seems beyond humans memory unless you have an idetic memory, again possible not highly improbable. The evidence of volcanic eruptions in mesoamerica, matching with the account of destruction and darkness in 3rd nephi, evidence of sunken cities as spoken of in 3rd Nephi, LIDAR technology discovering large buildings, highways, fortifications, agriculture and large populations matching with the book of mormon text, finding of cement and metal plates which were once definitive anachronisms and less and less anachronisms over years, seems possible but improbable that there would be less anachronisms overtime and less implausible with history if just a made up fraud. Discovering the name Mulek is a shortened version of the name Malckiyah who is a son of zedekiah. Possible but seems improbable that Joseph would know and guess a correct shortened name for the son of zedekiah in the Bible. Finally that Joseph orally dictated a 531 page narrative with numerous plot lines, internally consistent geography, ancient covenant renewal parallels, multiple migrations, genealogies, currency, hebraisms, chiasmus and beautifully interwoven biblical passages as a 23 year old farmboy without notes, manuscript all of the top of his head as a creative religious genius, convincing eye witnesses it was by the gift and power of God. Again possible, but this seems highly improbable. None of these I list as proofs for the book of mormon. But they add plausibility and probability that Joseph couldn't have just made up the book of Mormon himself. With all of the things which converge with archaeology, antiquity and complex beyond 99% humans oral capabilities. It seems possible he just made up the bom, tricked witnesses with fake plates and enduced mass hallucinations. But to me seems more probable it came forth as it claimed.

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

Great conversation. I love Dan and his heart, though there is much more concrete evidence in the north eastern United States for the book of Mormon. The mound builders are fit into the pages of the book of Mormon, very easily, historically, archaeologically, scripturally and genetically. Hugh Nibley thought so Also, statements from Joseph Smith put them in the United States / Canada.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

There are other statements from Joseph Smith supporting mesoamerica. But I personally think the best scholarship and evidence for volcanic activity and destruction in 3rd Nephi is best explained in the mesoamerica model and snow isn't mentioned. Sorenson and Gardner raise some good correlations between the things which fit with history between the mayans and nephites/lamanites

[@t-pain3343]

I really like Dan

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Me too

[@jeremims9044]

I too find the witnesses very powerful. In any court of law that many witnesses would be a slam dunk. Critics know this too and have been trying to chip away at it for over 200 years. They try and besmirch the character of individuals like Martin Harris with ad hominem attacks, or attack the "spiritual eyes" comment without realizing and/or acknowledging the context of what that actually means (D. Whitmer explained it very clearly). Eventually, many critics just simply ignore it and attack other low hanging fruit like archeology. When faced with explaining away the witnesses, often the only response can be a shrug and a "meh it doesn't do it for me". Imagine a juror saying that..

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

I tend to agree, the witnesses testimony is strong and consistent

[@randall7362]

It wasn't Joseph smith's well be known for good and evil, it was mormon

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

What do you mean? In Joseph's account of the angel he said that the angel told him that his name (Joseph) would be had for good and evil among all nations.

[@WhiteCleats]

I'm curious about the slant of this channel. Is Murph faithful? Is he a progressive with one foot out the door? Because he certainly seems to carry at least some water for critics and subversives alike.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

Watch my first video and I share my goals and position

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZe6p3isZsSWjJY

[@brianduckworth2687]

Murphy has one of the premier scholars of the Book of Mormon, yet he thinks he has more to say on the topic than Bro. Ppeterson.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

I wouldn't say that, I'm just asking him lots of questions for the most part.

[@ThoseOneGuysInc]

With Jaguars it does mention wild and ravenous beasts and ferocious beasts in the wilderness that would eat the bodies of the people. They probably didn’t feel the need to say more than that. They didn’t name specific animals very often like he says. Usually just general categories.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

That's true, flocks and herds don't specify their animals either

[@sparker602]

Murph, I love that you're doing these videos and it's great to hear some more detailed answers from all these faithful apologists but I think I've come away from all of your videos more frustrated and less believing than beforehand. I think you're probably doing the best you can with limited time and with the format of KZbin interviews but I'd love to see some more in-depth follow-ups to their responses even if it's at the cost of fewer subjects being covered. I consider myself to still be quite open minded to the church being true but it demands so much strict obedience and claims so much authority that there is no room for its scripture to be anything but 100% factual.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

I appreciate your feedback, it's hard finding the balance between being in depth on a topic and wanting to ask about a lot of the criticisms. I could try to do more of that and my own episodes I try to focus in on a particular topic or issue more.

[@howardedward5339]

Instead of just deleting comments, could you at least admit that you do delete comments, and state your policy for why you delete comments?

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

I didn't delete your comments, sometimes KZbin removes comments sometimes. I haven't deleted your comments. That's happened to me when I've commented on some channels, I post then a few seconds later it's not there but they didn't delete it

[@harryhenderson2479]

I legitimately feel sorry for Murph. He keeps getting sucked back into this crap. There’s a good reason why 99.97% of the world is NOT Mormon.

[@patriciafinn5717]

Sorry but very much a mayybe..but..might be answers. The members have to do all tbe work...

[@cameronburns1358]

I am a third of the way through this... but I'm done listening. Not a single true geographical or biblical fact! It is all theory which is the opposite of the bible. (The living word of God.) I'm just hearing noisy gongs. Read the Bible and know who God truly is.

[@jeremims9044]

Bible has so many holes in it like Swiss cheese. I'm sorry, if you're going to dismiss the BOM, but cling to the Bible based on proof (and I mean really dig into the scholarship), you'll be fully disappointed. Your approach is inconsistent

[@Nick_BRZ]

Now I’m not saying you’s a treasure-digger…🕳️🎩😉

[@ramirorodriguez18717]

Joseph smith was so full of crapppp its INSANEE..

[@sdfotodude]

Dan loves the sound of his own "smallish, not so silent voice" How many times will he virtue signal where he went or who he knows? He sure can bloviate about the stuff he really doesn't want to talk about.

[@wendyfoster5579]

He is a very intelligent man and I for one am glad he is sharing is knowledge. Why do you get on to tear people down?

[@sdfotodude]

@@wendyfoster5579 Because he is a myopic tool. He sounds wise to people who do not know what he is talking about and simply want faith-affirming conjecture.

[@wendyfoster5579]

@@sdfotodude be careful because you are resembling your criticism of him.

[@sdfotodude]

@@wendyfoster5579 Make a video, post it, and expect criticism. I am not being contentious, I'm in search of honest answers based on facts.

[@TheYgds]

@@sdfotodude No you're not. It is very easy to read his work, and that of others and launch a criticism of the actual documents they've produced. Instead, you get indignant and accusatory about him sharing a few anecdotes that illustrate a particular point he is trying to make. That isn't seeking truth, it is criticizing that portion of what he says that he admits doesn't constitute evidence, but is still interesting to think about. I've seen you elsewhere, what is your beef?

[@nathanbigler]

How many Catholic apologists can you name? Dan is playing for a very small market. He's made a career pretending to be a loyal Mormon intellectual. Maybe he's even sincere. But his arguments are absurd and dismissed by every non Mormon academic. If it wasn't for Deseret Books and some simps like Murph, no one would even know Dan existed except for his cat.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

I don't appreciate being called a simp Nathan, that's fine if you don't find his arguments compelling.

[@nathanbigler]

@@mormonismwiththemurph can you name a Catholic apologist?

[@ldsgospelmotivation]

@@nathanbigler Upon a quick internet search, here are some catholic apologists: Bishop Robert Barron, G. K. Chesterton, Ronald Knox, Taylor Marshall, Arnold Lunn, Karl Keating, Michael Voris, Peter Kreeft, Frank Sheed, Dr. Scott Hahn, and Patrick Madrid. 🤷‍♂️

[@nathanbigler]

@@ldsgospelmotivation lol, good job. But you had to look them up because they're not notable, widely respected people. More people know Neil deGrasse Tyson and other scientists by name than any apologist. You missed my point. Gullible people look to their group's apologists for validation and encouragement. But outside of the group their arguments are meaningless.

[@jerrygrover8992]

@@nathanbigler Well lots of people know Trump, Biden, and Clinton. People who get media exposure get better known. Just like Neil deGrasse Tyson. How many people in the world care about Mormonism, not very many. Lots of people are interested in science, but I'm pretty sure more people know about the Kardashians than know about Tyson. Popularity does not equate to intelligence.

[@paulblack1799]

Out of sight, out of mind = invisible imbecile. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak = the liquor is good but the meat is rotten. 😅

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

It's funny how Daniel c Peterson thinks that he's got the answers and that Mormonism is true and thinks that he's putting out a response to the critics but yet will not sit down with a face-to-face discussion over the hard issues of the church. That is dishonest of Daniel C Peterson

[@tylerahlstrom4553]

He has sat down for numerous face-to-face discussions with non-believers and those who have challenged his faith. Here is one example: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aoe5pnaahLFlercsi=3CU3PGEmGU5F1xiB The idea that Dr Peterson runs away from criticism is laughable.

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

@@tylerahlstrom4553 first of all I wasn't talking about a formal debate. I'm talking about one-on-one discussing the deep issues when it comes to Mormonism and how it falls apart when you actually look at it honestly. I'd like to point out that the debate that you linked up is not specifically about mormonism it's just about faith versus reason. But notice how Daniel C Peterson will not sit down with ex-mormons to discuss the issues. Because he knows hell lose

[@samualthelamanite7560]

The book has been crushed guys. The church is running from everything Joseph. Let’s see you debate Peterson? You know you would get your butt handed to you! Heck I would debate you! Dan Vogul would crush you ! By the way, it’s not true !

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

You should debate him!

[@bartonbagnes4605]

And yet in the almost 200 years since, not only have they failed to prove it wrong, but the more archeological and historical research done, the further they get away from proving it false. Joseph Smith Jr. knew far more about the world during biblical times than he should have, more than anyone even today, as more discoveries will show. The number of languages he would have had to be fluent in in order to fake it using the materials known today would be in the 20s at least, and would include several dead languages. And even that wouldn't cover everything. He would have had to have access to source material that nobody had seen before or since, not including The Golden Plates, if he were faking it. One by one the things they said "prove" The Book Of Mormon false, have been shown to exist when and where The Book Of Mormon said it did. They are starting to run low on things that "prove" it false, and are getting desperate. They keep recycling already disproven theories and hoping people won't do any research.

[@andreatimmers1720]

​@@bartonbagnes4605Proving it false? No you can't prove a negative. Not one non Mormon accredited source has stepped forward with any proof it's true. It's totally baloney. I will give Smith credit he was a good catch me if you can artist

[@bartonbagnes4605]

@@andreatimmers1720 Dig a little deeper. For if you really believe anything you just said, then you haven't even begun to do any real study. Regurgitating the same lies, that weren't even true 150 years ago when they were first said, much less so now, will get you nowhere.

[@andreatimmers1720]

@@bartonbagnes4605 No thank you. Just listening to one of Brigham Young speeches in 1852 turned my stomach. What a racist man. No excuse none. It is entertaining studying false religions. Muslims have a lot in common actually with your church. Lots of women waiting in heaven for sex. Child brides. They get ballastic really fast but I don't mind . All I need is my bible and I don't have to pray to know it's true. Maybe Scientology next. Cheers!

[@sdfotodude]

If Mormonism was so great, the U.K. wouldn't have just lost 4 Stakes. Don't forget to tune into 60 Minutes tonight to see how your tithing is used.

[@jerrygrover8992]

LOL That's kind of funny, since nearly all the criticism is how it is NOT BEING USED at all.

[@sdfotodude]

@@jerrygrover8992 Did You get a coupon for Victoria's secret at the Lord's mall?

[@jerrygrover8992]

@@sdfotodude No, but I do shop there for gifts when getting gifts for my girlfriends. Meaning I don’t shop there a lot. Lol. Since I am in real estate, I don’t see that as a bad investment tbh. Fairly smart to hold reserves in income producing investments instead of sitting in a bank account. A significant amount of my retirement is in income producing real estate tbh. Seems to me that if the Church is growing in places like Latin America and Africa, and not so much in developed countries if at all, it is going to need a significant reserve in the coming decades. Seems like a prudent financial plan to me.

[@sdfotodude]

@@jerrygrover8992 How's that ward budget and numerous callings and Missionary fees and, and, and, everything else working out? If you are happy, knock yourself out. 70% of your fellow members went the other way.

[@dcarts5616]

Another fulfillment of prophecy not just from Mormons. The most blessed nations to have existed in this era will dismiss their maker as they fall into the self inflicted shackles of selfishness. The west is crumbling in their banishment of God. Undeveloped nations are starting to flourish, as they find God. Interesting how that works. I’m excited to leave the crumbling west and move to a place where my kids aren’t targeted as test specimens for crazy doctors, psycho psychologists and therapists, drug companies humanists and other child predator creating entities. 😢