A220 VS 737 MAX | Southwest' Airbus Order...

[@jcspotter7322]

Southwest never seriously considered the a220, they only toyed with the idea so boeing would step up their game for a better deal for southwest

[@johniii8147]

Exactly. That's what that was all about and to show the board they were negotiating. Airbus never even submitted a bid. "Interest" in the 220 was just a show.

[@forfdasbrot991]

Would have been a great strategy from Airbus if they would‘ve done that. I mean, what’s the worst thing that can happen: they don’t sell a plane, but the plane chosen is so cheap, that Boeing would not make a huge +. Or they sell a few planes for cheap, which wouldn’t hurt them much, because they don’t have Boeings money problems

[@fastmph]

Yea, Boeing has no negotiating experience.

[@jcspotter7322]

@@fastmph they absolutely do, but it's hard to negotiate out of a 2 year grounding

[@SrssSteve]

@@jcspotter7322 pretty sure he was being sarcastic

[@PilotWyattOfficial]

As somebody who flies on Southwest on a regular basis i am very happy with the max 7 choise.

[@el33]

As a 25 year employee at SWA, I would have liked to have seen us take the A220. But it wasn't my decision! But we were told a couple of weeks ago, by our new CEO Bob Jordan, that Boeing won't get the MAX-7 certified before the end of the year. Which means that we'll have to keep our gas guzzling 700s in our fleet longer. I guess that the hits just keep on comin' with Boeing. We'll see what happens next.

[@calebemerson9317]

I figure that most of the -700s will be in the fleet regardless of the Max-7. There is over 500 in the fleet and most are payed off which means they do nothing but make money. Kinda like American Airlines MD-80s. Old and inefficient but they made a lot of profit.

[@MrRashad9001]

I would like to see Southwest in the future to add the A220-300 it would work omg well the 737-700/ Max 7

[@johniii8147]

The 220 couldn't handle the volume of aircraft for Southwest. Airbus is stuck at 4 a month production with over 800 in backlog. Boeing will pushing 50 a month here out the door a month so once it's certified, the 7 will quickly enter the fleet.

[@americanrambler4972]

The 737-7max having a tremendous amount of commonality with the max 8 and max 9 cannot be undervalued! It may use more gas than an A-220, but a real savings is all that stuff under the paint on the outside of the plane that makes the daily support for the fleet a real big deal. With the fleet ranging from the stubby -7 through the stretched -10, southwest can essentially support the airplane every where it can find a paying customer to fill its seats. And keep in mind, you can land a 737 at almost any airport that has a passenger terminal. And many that don’t.

[@americanrambler4972]

Does the 737 max still retain the capability to be self sustaining at unimproved airports like the early 737 models?

[@photogcw]

Simple: Boeing may a deal with Southwest they could not refuse. Remember they were the lead airline for the 737 Max at its introduction. Boeing fought hard to keep the former Bombardier C220 out of the US market before Airbus purchased it. Southwest essentially save the 737 back in the 1970's. Boeing almost canceled production but did not to fulfill Southwest's orders.

[@johniii8147]

@@sulaman600 I think you and many overeastate how good a deal they got. Southwest really had no other option but to go with the MAX given their established base, so I'm sure that was factored into pricing.

[@LtColDaddy71]

We were the launch customer for the 300, and NG. We were a small operator when the 300 was the new kid on the block. If we bring in a new aircraft, it will be something with longer legs. The 220 is more expensive long term, we haul more 3rd party freight than people realize, and our 73’s are still operating when other carriers have parked the RJ’s they fly. We’re still operating at the most challenging airports when conditions are less than ideal. When all the 220’s are not flying. The 220 is a glorified RJ, a 73 is built to the same specs as a 777, 767, 747. Will fly as many cycles, and enjoy a decades long life in the secondary market long after the 220’s are sitting in a scrap pile. The 737 has over 30 hrs left in production. With some big changes, like a long skinny wing. You’ll see soon enough.

[@johniii8147]

@@LtColDaddy71 Southwest doesn't have any particularly challenging airports. This sounds like you're sipping the tea Southwest if feeding you.

[@LtColDaddy71]

@@johniii8147 everyone has the same airports, we just still performing when RJ’s can’t. I flew out of MDW for 20 years. When the Delta RJ’s are sitting idle, we were usually still moving.

[@laurentiutrifan8173]

The fact that a big part of the production of A220 is made in the US ... proves that the american workers are ok. So, the superiority of this model ... over the Stuka ... is given by the superiority of the Airbus's management + the superiority of the C series Bombardier plane's design.

[@dalecooper9942]

Stuka??!! AH AH AH AH

[@mefobills279]

​@Dale Cooper American workers are not ok. Their total tax hit exceeds the 35% amount that feudal lords were limited to. Otherwise, the serfs stopped breeding. Heritage Americans are being replaced by die-varsity immigrants who work for less, especially if illegal. College graduates are saddled with lifetime debts making a fearful and disaffected worker.

[@jollyroger1009]

Stuka?? Haha, that needs to catch on.

[@laurentiutrifan8173]

@@jollyroger1009 He he, it's not mine. I found it in the comments section of this chanel ... used - probably - by an Airbus troll ...😉 But it's juicy ... 🙂

[@rushrulz65]

The A220 is a great airplane that outperforms the 737 in its class in so many ways. SWA let their history (and pilot interchangeability) talk themselves out of the perfect airplane for their way of flying. I'm actually happy about that...

[@isthatso5616]

When it's flying ....good luck getting your engines replaced ..some waiting a year and counting for new replacements

[@boatlover1875]

Sure, let's just retrain thousands of employees, spend a billion on new simulators and training. Re-train ground staff, buy new ground equipment. New spare part stores. Train maintenance employees. Re-train cabin crew and buy new in flight necessary items. Re-train flight dispatchers. Pretty simple, not. Kind of throwing out their successful business model, the only airline in history to always make money except for Covid. Good thing you're not in charge.

[@soccerguy2433]

@@isthatso5616 some.

[@mh12-47]

Boeing was ready to launch a 737 back in 2010. When AA ordered the A320NEO this prompted Boeing to launch the MAX. Also, WN had massive input on the MAX about pilot training etc they also had input when Boeing launched the NG back in the 90s

[@boondockduane]

And of Coarse Boeing has a Max production pause announcement this morning due to a parts problem, Spirit AeroSystems makes the two parts that join the vertical tail and fuselage. The problem, which affects a portion of the MAX 7, MAX 8 and MAX 8200 airplanes as well as the P-8 Poseidon maritime surveillance aircraft based on the 737 NG, is not a safety of flight issue and in-service planes can continue to operate the FAA confirms

[@boondockduane]

Now they area saying it effects about 30 planes in post production storage and in manufacturing and will be a relatively quick replacement of parts and Boeing is still looking at increasing Max Production Next quarter I see them exceeding Airbus’s Production numbers again.

[@nickolliver3021]

God I hope this last very quick so they can restart deliveries again

[@boondockduane]

@@nickolliver3021 they are still delivering some of the unaffected and now the OEM part defect was found they will get the properly made parts from AeroSystems Inc This just shows that Boeing is back on top of quality control and they are the ones telling the FAA, hey we found this and ask for their directives

[@nickolliver3021]

@@boondockduane At least its got nothing to do with Boeing lacking anything now. The suppliers are the ones who are letting them down. So I'm guessing the ones unaffected are those out of the factory perhaps? Yes Boeing is stepping up and telling who's boss. :)

[@seprishere]

Commonality is indeed all-important for a low cost carrier, hence why Ryanair is all-737 and easyJet all-A320 family.

[@agustinokoye7740]

We at ryanair also own a320s since we bought lauda some years back

[@seprishere]

@@agustinokoye7740 Presumably that branch hasn't bothered changing them?

[@mwat22]

Commonality has to start from somewhere chief it's not like changing your bedsheets where you yank one set off and slap another on. It's transitory

[@royfeely7145]

You can just imagine the leverage Southwest applied to Boeing regards pricing. It must have been a bloodbath for Boeings bottom line but they just couldn’t have let Southwest defect, the Max program would have been devastated.

[@DaveMiller2]

It was a game. SW was never going to buy A220s. But Boeing wants to make SW happy.

[@danatmatchvox]

I would have flown Southwest had they added the A220, a much better aircraft also engineered and built in North America and Boeings greatest fear.

[@prasenjittripura4691]

Airbus Pan-boy😀😀

[@RLTtizME]

You need some counseling. Basically you fly to get your butt from one point to the other. The difference between the two aircraft as far as a passenger is concerned is negligible. The traveling public simply would not give a rip. They are both nice aircraft.

[@Blank00]

It will be interesting to see what replacement plans AA and UA have for A319 and 73G. Both have picked MAX8/9 over A320NEO for that size of plane while they picked Airbus for the bigger narrowbodies.

[@wardogies]

But both did order the A321NEO

[@Blank00]

@@wardogies That's what I said. A321NEO is a bigger narrowvody than the MAX 8 and A320NEO.

[@neilpickup237]

I think that the A220 is by far the better choice, and that eventually, Soutwest will rue their decision. However, it is unlikely that this 'mistake' will become a serious issue for ar least a decade, or to put it another way, before those making the decision have collected their bonuses and run (or retired). There are advantages with operating a single aircraft type, and had there been an A220-500, or at least a date for one, I feel that sticking with the 737 would have been harder to justify. In addition to the points raised in the video, there is also a serious matter regarding the P&W engines fitted to the A220. Yes, it appears that the on aircraft reliability has been fixed, but availability of spare parts has resulted in unacceptable delays even for routine maintenance. Something I do wonder about is if Southwest had not chosen the Max7, would it have been viable as a variant?

[@texasabbott]

Southwest was offered an irresistible price for the MAX7, along with the usual economic advantages of fleet commonality (engines, parts, pilot and personnel training). It took a "look" at the A220 to put some pressure on Boeing. In the end, they were giving up the A220's flight capabilities and operational economics that Breeze's CEO would say "what airlines could only dream of". However, given the turnaround time of maintenance of the A220's geared turbofan engines, Southwest went with CFM associated with 737 as well, this time the MAX's LEAP engines.

[@johniii8147]

The price was probably not nearly as good as would think. Southwest didn't realistically have another option and Boeing knew that all along. Of course they got a discount off of list as any large order does. Nobody really pays list for aircraft. 40-50% off of list is normal for large orders. Wouldn't surprise me if AA got an even better price on the MAX 8 than Southwest since they placed a joint order with Airbus.

[@mwat22]

Doesn't make any sense if you can't actualise your threats which SW wouldn't do anyway so Boeing held all the cards.

[@mwat22]

And also this "geared engine" thing is irrelevant, the more A220 there are in operations means more mature process as time goes along and thus in time means the cost will be irrelevant due to the scale of things, if it was an issue as you put it then the plane wouldn't have such a substantial backlog as it does now and the current operators wouldn't continue ordering it, additional they would be pressuring airbus to give them an alternative engine.

[@johniii8147]

@@mwat22 The engine thing is VERY relevant actually. Problems with the engine are grounding aircraft around the globe. It's a huge issue for the aircraft as the only engine option.

[@mwat22]

@@johniii8147 doesn't happen on a daily basis so, not really and also can be argued that having one engine means it's highly optimised for that aircraft hence more fuel efficient, the max has one engine option and seems to be working out fine so not sure why we are setting non issues on fire here

[@michaelh494]

Well remember the 737 design is over 50 years old. The 737 is in the same family as the original 707 & 727. All sharing the same basic fuselage design. So there’s only so much you can do to continue improving a dated fuselage design that dates back to the 1960’s. Southwest will eventually have to turn to a impending 737 replacement. The 737 is the only narrow bodied aircraft currently in production with Boeing. Case in point: Southwest had no choice but to purchase the 737-800 series aircraft form Boeing because Boeing ceased production of the 700 series aircraft. So if Southwest wanted to remain a 737 customer they had to go with the larger capacity 800. Only after this happened did Boeing decide to proceed with the “max” family now to produce a max-7 with will actually be a 700 series replacement & Southwest is now ordering over 200 737 max-7 aircraft to act s a replacement for its 737-700 series aircraft. But again how much longer can you continue to improve a dated fuselage design? To remain competitive Boeing will eventually have to design a completely new narrow bodied aircraft.

[@jfmezei]

the Southwest debacle over Christmas shows they do not have the software to handle crewing during anolaies in operations. Introducing different aircraft would have made things far worse for WN. There was debate on whether the -7 would ever be produced as it is essentially a custom model for Southwest and order numbers are low. The confirmation of the -7 order shows Boeing will produce it. Longer term, it also means that Southwest keeps unified old 737s fleet until Boeing introduced new single aisle to teplace it, at which point, Southwest could begin fleet transformation from single type 737 to single type replacement (but during which they would have both types). Had they gone for 220 now, in a few years when Boeing launched 737 replacement, it may mean WN would have to support 3 types during convertion back to all Boeing fleet. As the 220 is not same type as 320 family. there is no commoality advantage to Southwest keeping 220s and choosing 320 (or its replacement) for rest vs choosing the Boeing replaceme nt for 737 which would bring it back to single aircraft type.

[@cliffhigson7581]

I saw on a tweet a few hours ago that Boeing has suspended max deliveries due to a supplier issue.

[@heidirabenau511]

Yep, due to a manufacturing issue with the vertical stabiliser on the MAX 7 and 8 but not on the MAX 9.

[@johniii8147]

Hopefully this delay will be short lived. Airlines can't get the planes fast enough.

[@mmm0404]

*Suspended some MAX deliveries.

[@johniii8147]

@@mmm0404 Apparently they can still delivery 9s since it wasn't impacted by the tail issue since it's different than the 8

[@feldons5621]

The A 220 was used as bait for better Max deal ! Only this option makes sense for fleet commonality and 737 availability is better with Ex Russian and Chinese white tails.

[@matthiasmatthias6126]

I love the A220 and I would say its better but to teach so much pilots and cabimcrew from the 737 o the 220 is just to expensive I guess.

[@Flexflex744]

Name a more iconic duo than Southwest and the 737: How about Ryanair and hard landings?

[@roykliffen9674]

Aerosucre and tree-trimming?

[@Hans-gb4mv]

But also Ryanair and ... the 737

[@mangos2888]

I see a lot of great Ryanair landings on the internet 😂

[@fastmph]

What a huge pilot training cost this would be for Southwest. Imagine the hit their bottom line would take, actually having to be like the rest of the major airlines and buy simulators that don’t look like a B-737, train ground instructors on a new aircraft, build an entirely new training program, train flight attendants on a new equipment, and require 6 weeks of initial training for each pilot transitioning to the Airbus. There are so many other things to consider here, too many to mention, and too far out there for this to even be remotely possible for LUV.

[@newdefsys]

You mean Southwest would have to do like almost every other airline in the world does ?

[@carlosquiroz7819]

The alternative to not doing so is a big liability for southwest.

[@boatlover1875]

First, BA's debacle with the 737 was pretty much the result of trying to make LUV happy. Much of their success is directly tied to having just one type of aircraft. Pilot training, ground training, ground handling equipment etc... would have been costly adding another type. For example, their pilots often fly more than one of the 737 generation aircraft on the same day. They could not just slip into an A220 seat without significant training. Their recent logistics issues would have only been made worse with an additional type.

[@gabrieltan2412]

The more iconic duo. Ryanair and their landings

[@gsprasanna6382]

The A 220 would have been a good choice!

[@martygeorgescu4159]

Recently flew a JetBlue A220 to Florida. GREAT plane compared to the claustrophic boeing plane. Airbus has MUCH roomier seating and ride felt a lot more secure than boeing.

[@LEVELGAZANOW]

Compared to a MAX? No

[@ronavena]

​@@LEVELGAZANOW so the MAX is more comfortable and "secure" to the passenger than the A220? I would think Southwest ultimately made its MAX decision based upon maintenance and training costs. Correct?

[@LEVELGAZANOW]

@@ronavena I commute on a A220 line. From a Pilot’s perspective, the A220 has a fantastic cockpit but from a passengers viewpoint, you better use noise cancellation headsets. The cabin is noisy. Quite reminiscent to the 737-200 which has turbojets. Secondly, the A220 is much smaller than a MAX in the beam so it is much more cramped regardless of configuration. In regards to the MAX, cabin configuration is determined by the airline. I’ve flown on 3 different airlines who fly the MAX. Southwest has the most legroom. However, you are correct, Southwest maintains the MAX to keep in line with their business model of commonality in Type Rating, training and maintenance. If you’re familiar with the industry, it is quite obvious that Southwest is preparing for a larger, transcontinental aircraft. My guess is they are within 5 years of unveiling South America, Europe and Asia.

[@danielmeador1991]

@@LEVELGAZANOWthe 737 never had turbo jets the -100 and -200 had turbofans but are low bypass the -300 onwards are highbypass

[@LEVELGAZANOW]

@@danielmeador1991 -200 had turbojets. High bypass started with the 300 and 500’s

[@johnreed6507]

I do think it was the right decision for Southwest to stay with Boeing because if they would’ve went with airbus, they would’ve had to re-train pilots and maintenance staff so in the long run it was going to save the money

[@johniii8147]

The Airbus thing was just a negotiating bluff for Southwest. Everyone knew that at time

[@TheManunderwater]

On the other hand, if the main reason is not needing to retrain technical and flying staff, they'll never switch to another carrier which forces SouthWest to continuously order Boeing - even if its not the right aircraft for their needs - or in case Boeing has another long term delays in production. There could be a case to select a clutch of A220s for some geographic regions to do a "Taste test"........... 😉

[@johniii8147]

@@TheManunderwater Nah they are not switching and everyone knows that. Airbus won't even bother with it at this point. It would just be a negotiation tactic to get better pricing from Boeing and they know that.

[@wurly1]

Yeah, let's focus on money rather than safety and morality.

[@mauricesfascinatingmodeltr8657]

It is good if southwest went with the A220 . they will see the improvement and the profitable ness of the aircraft when time pases out .

[@RagShop1]

No, for the sake of fleet commonality and training costs, the 737-7 MAX made far more sense for Southwest.

[@mauricesfascinatingmodeltr8657]

@@RagShop1 yeah because Southwest is a all boeing aircraft airline going for the 737 Max would have been cutting their training costs and the have more experience on the 737 family .

[@mauricesfascinatingmodeltr8657]

So from some financially sectors the have made the right choice .

[@Love2Cruise]

Southwest just kicked the can down the road. Eventually the 737 will be out of production and SWA will need to select a new type to replace its fleet. Not sure what SWA was hoping for, but with Boeing current financial it's unlikely they start a new design project to replace the 737. SWA will be stuck flying a design that originated from the 1950's well into the 2050's.

[@wurly1]

Exactly that. And Boeing have confirmed they aren't going to even *start* developing a new plane this decade.

[@blackmoon013]

And when the eventual 797 comes out, it will be to cover the 737 and 757, so a small variant like the max 7 or 700 probably won't be developed

[@JuanAdam12]

It’s extraordinarily difficult for an airline that’s firmly entrenched in a certain way of doing and teaching things to employees to take on something totally new. A lean, nimble company could do it. SWA is just too large and cumbersome. It would have to start the process by acquiring another airline that flies the A220. It would then take all the good things that airline does and try to bolt on the “SWA Way” of doing things.

[@Dan-oj4iq]

Reminds me of a poker game, where some serious bluffing is always in order.

[@patrikohman4617]

Southwest was the airline that asked Boeing for "a bigger 737 without pilot-retraining"; That led to the 737-MAX debacle, with Boeing trying to please Southwest by giving them what they asked for. Southwest was the launch customer for the MAX, trying to replace their aging 737/700 and 737/800 fleet.

[@Keepmelevel]

That 220 is a beauty 😍 but so is the 737.

[@davidmangold1838]

All 737 fleet has served Southwest well. But IMHO, that is very BORING! I say this, as a 40 year airline pilot having flown for Ozark, TWA and AA. We had MANY different makes and models to fly. Fun for a pilot👍🏻✈️🚀

[@ronparrish6666]

Yep just a 707 with 2 engines

[@davidmangold1838]

@@ronparrish6666 not at all! The 707 was a WAY cooler airplane!

[@DatDenDude]

“Name a more iconic duo since Southwest and the 737” IDK Alaska and the 737 is pretty close

[@sibua69]

Must be a slow week for DJ 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@winwinniewinfield]

just crazy boeing had a chance to take the c series at a discount market it and profit off the sales .. it would have been killer for boeing and blow to airbus . coulda kept the max 7 going while cornering the regional market but boeing has been crazy lately lol

[@mwat22]

When you can only see market signals and stock prices which are most times at odds with innovation you can't think beyond that and that's what happened with Boeing which is more concerned with profit rather than their core business of aircraft manufacturing

[@TheRoadwarrior1967]

I think the uncertainty of the US Congress of passing a law that allowed the Boeing Max 7/10 to be grandfathered under existing standards versus having to start all over from scratch was the motive behind Southwest. It is just due diligence which is very common.

[@donsland1610]

Are Southwest making the same mistake that Boeing made and not moving with the times to acquire to to date technology? Boeing would appear to be already regretting that decision.

[@topofthegreen]

I think the max will have more problems, and should switch to the A220.

[@flyingjeff1984]

Please share more of your engineering insight.

[@bobdevreeze4741]

I thought the Max 7 and 10 would be certified by now. Funny, the 8 and 9 are flying every day. Basically the same plane. That will make a person wonder.

[@flyingjeff1984]

Don't wonder too hard. The "good" folks at DOT are just trying to inch closer to retirement before they put their names on any more paper.

[@tall1sobay]

It totally makes sense for SWA to keep the 737. As a traveller, I'd pick an A-220 over any 737 every day.

[@joecrammond6221]

i get the feeling Southwest had no plans to take the A220 and was a veiled threat to get a major discount on the MAX 7

[@johniii8147]

Yeah that was all just a show more for board than anything. They never even got a bid from Airbus.

[@wurly1]

The A220 option was only ever a bargaining ploy for Southwest, nothing more. Something not mentioned that makes it an extra galling practice by them, is that Southwest were actually one of the key reasons that people died on Max's and the programme was subsequently delayed, in the first place - because they were one of the biggest bullies onto Boeing to keep MCAS etc secret (and the to not install EICAS) etc. just so it didn't cost them a few extra dollars to train their pilots. The result being that safety was compromised and people died. It's also a massive over simplification to say in this video that it was "faulty software" that caused the Max crashes. That software was only there in the first place, because of short comings in the plane design (having pushed the original 737 design too far). Without those short comings, additional flight augmentation controls like MCAS wouldn't even have been necessary and therefore couldn't have caused the disaster. And that's all because Boeing and some of their key customers wanted to penny-pinch instead of doing what they should have done - invest in a new plane design, rather than flogging a well outdated design, far beyond its natural limits.

[@paulgooding803]

I think this premise is wrong. I don't think SWA ever planned to buy the Airbus at all, but used the possibility to work itself a sweet deal on the 737s. And it worked. Airlines are not passive, they are in a game and they know how to play it.

[@immanuel_shadowhammonds2813]

Well there’s two options for Southwest after the 737 Neo…. 1. The returning 727 Or… 2. Perhaps the 797

[@eduardodaquiljr9637]

How price can compare 737 and a220?

[@kevinbolden8998]

Southwest made a very masterful decision that will benefit them greatly . I think they are the only Airline that can truly keep Boeing in check.

[@danharold3087]

Cough Puke..... ARe you kidding! SW was the main player in the MAX crashes !

[@wadehiggins1114]

@Dan Harold that was actually american airlines

[@nntflow7058]

@@wadehiggins1114 No, Americans decisions came after Southwest has talked to Boeing months prior to AA's announcement. Southwest didn't went public with their discussion.

[@dmcr9525]

SWA is partly to blame for the MAX crashes for sure! If it was not for them, things may have gone differently.

[@wurly1]

Keep Boeing in check? Pardon? They're one of the main reasons the Max crashed and killed people in the first place!

[@danielzang5929]

Yes, both the Boeing 737max and Airbus a220 is the suitable candidate for south west air; but United air can be the candidate for Boeing 777c and Airbus a220-300 and Airbus a3500-1000

[@danielzang5929]

I mean 777x not 777c😂

[@PHXGinger_]

I think it would be much more difficult for pilots to transition and it would even cost more for the pilots who want to fly the A220's. The cost would be higher because of different maintenance tools and also fuel.

[@jwaustinmunguy]

Airbus haven't demonstrated the manufacturing muscle that is required to out-compete the 737 MAX line. The Meribel plant north of Montreal is still too small and the Mobile, Alabama plant isn't much more than a Final Assembly Line for parts trucked South from Canada. Many subsystems are US-built and as with other types, many components are manufactured worldwide.

[@mxr572]

Boeing also sub contracts and has supply problems. Airbus has many plants for parts of plane and does well. supply chain is normal.

[@simu31]

Southwest were never going to buy the A220, they just wanted a better deal from Boeing, which they got. It was never about the better aircraft, it was about money (which isn't necessarily a negative, it's just a fact). It would cost less, on a short term basis, to not have to retrain pilots, than the lower fuel costs of a more modern aircraft. Nobody, in their right mind, would prefer a 60 year old airframe over a modern aircraft, but it costs less to upgrade pilots to a Max than to upgrade to a better aircraft

[@lexustech48]

I have heard Boeing had an opportunity to buy the C series. If true, they missed a great opportunity as the A220 looks like a fantastic aircraft.

[@mwat22]

You've heard? 😂 Bruh it was news, bruh boeings pettiness is what led to the fiasco in the first place when it was a non issue during trump's era.

[@danmcbride6258]

The Southwest order for A220 order would have spelled a Strike 2 call on the 737 program for Boeing. Southwest has Boeing in a very vulnerable position on pricing to replace their 737-700 Fleet. The final pricing is confidential but you can bet the entire package of Aircraft, Maintenance and Training was heavily subsidized in Southwest’s favour.

[@ludivinecarmensarahaichapa3507]

Southwest made a pact with the devil, when they agreed to certify that the MCAS was on their 737 and working wonders, in order to get the MAX certified for Boeing. If i were prosecutor, i would challenge the deal SW made with Boeing, arguing that Airbus has the BETTER product (in all ways necessary) than Boeing with the 737Max. What bothers me, is the fact that tactical playout vs. honest negotiations outrule the aviation market, and waste valuable ressources. SW made the wrong choice in the grand scheme, but hey, it is what it is.

[@Marqk-]

Why would southwest go with a more comfortable plane, it doesn’t fit there business model

[@connclissmann6514]

One day, SouthWest and Ryanair are going to have to ask themselves are the savings of homogeneity with the 737 worth the grief of Boeing's ever-lasting delivery delays. Memo to Boeing from airlines: We can only profit by flying passengers, if you have delivered planes that are certified to fly.

[@mabdinur85]

I think it's also about delivery time ... the A220 while in high demand still has not made a huge leap in production capacity that would be required.

[@wurly1]

The 737 max is hardly flying off the production line and hitting any delivery targets either!

[@mabdinur85]

@@wurly1 The point is that Airbus A220 monthly production rate is like 14 compared to like 42 for 737. Although with Boeing the pre-COVID production rate for 737 was 52 a month so it means it has a known factory capacity to scale up. With A220 it will take several years to reach that kind of production capacity because it means more engine production, more factory capacity, more supply chain ramp up, etc... Again these things take time and several years of big investments. The Airbus current target is to reach breakeven then look at expansion from the looks of it. I believe that breakeven target was in 2025. So Southwest may have decided to remain with Boeing because they know if they order a plane the wait time isn't as long as with Airbus A220; that is a crucial decision point always.

[@othmarbrunner9639]

Both are excellent airplanes but it is a huge task for an airline to switch to another make That is why Ryanair just announced to purchase 300 Boeing max air planes

[@mrAhollandjr]

The problem with going with the A220 is that SW would have to pay all of its pilots to train and get certified to fly that aircraft All of their maintenance crew would have to be trained and certified to work on that type of aircraft. All of the cabin crew would have to be trained on that aircraft. That's a significant cost. That's why Spirit and Frontier only fly Airbus aircraft. American, Delta, United, and Alaska have mixed fleets mainly as a result of mergers. Continental was all Boeing before merging with United. DELTA was mostly Boeing with MD aircraft before merging with Northwest, which was predominately Airbus with some DC-9s, and Boeing 747s and 757s. USAirways was predominately Airbus before merging with American. Alaska was all Boeing when it merged with Virgin America which was all Airbus i believe Alaska is trying to return to an all Boeing fleet again. JetBlue is almost all Airbus save for a few Embraer aircraft.

[@cuprum166]

I wonder how many hours/days of training you need to go from the 737 to a new A220 fleet. This is not like jumping from your old Nissan into a brand new Tesla......

[@wadehiggins1114]

They should have switched to the A220. They'll feel the effect over time.

[@isthatso5616]

Ohhh Really !!!! Let me guess !!! Another one of your April Fool's jokes !!!?😂 With a slew of engine issues occuring, with no end in sight, ;I think not... ..Just ask Air Baltic, the waiting time for replacement PW engines and parts... So far 1 year and counting for one their grounded a220's ,and forcing them to wet lease aircraft for the upcoming peak summer season, 2 years on now..!!

[@nntflow7058]

The savings they got from the low fuel consumptions alone wouldn't be good enough for them to justified efficiency over single model operation. This is just my opinion. But I think if Airbus had offered a potential stretched A220-500 (Which would have very high efficiency compared to MAX8 or A320NEO) Southwest probably might considered them back then. But Airbus didn't went ahead with the program.

[@nickolliver3021]

Why should they have switched to the a220? What effect would that be

[@wadehiggins1114]

@@nickolliver3021 🤣

[@christopherkozal7987]

Wade…You have zero clue what you’re taking about. Time to wash your Airbus undies.

[@miptjc57]

See “Coby Explanes” from a month ago and why Southwest didn’t order this plane is crystal clear.

[@thearsenalmisfit2414]

At some point, Southwet is going to have to give up on cockpit cominality, even if they stay with Beoing . Boeings replacement is not going to be based on a 60+ year design. They are just shooting themselves in the foot by staying with an inferior aircraft in the B737. I can tell you that as a passenger the A220 is a better passenger experience than the B737 in every way and will fly the A220 over the B737 when ever possible.

[@drakbar5957]

SWA couldn’t get a sweetheart deal from Airbus. But by talking with them, they got a smokin’ deal from a nervous Boeing. But how much longer can Boeing extend the life of the 737? Can’t make ‘em longer, and if the engines get any bigger, they’ll scrape the runway.

[@jamesfisher139]

Strategically I think it was the correct move. They maintained their powerful position with Boeing vs. falling behind Delta’s influence at the Alabama manufacturing plant. Southwest would not have the same influence, and I would guess Airbus couldn’t deliver aircraft nearly as quickly as Boeing. Plus the associated cost of maintaining and brand new airframe and establishing a new service center would greatly hamper Airbus if they didn’t offer a deep discount on the first round of aircraft.

[@nurrizadjatmiko21]

In my opinion, the 737 MAX 7 is the right plane for replacing it's older 737-700

[@FelixCervantes]

I flew a A220 recently and like it way better than a 737.

[@themeparklunatic1996]

Honestly having flown southwest in 2019 I felt that southwest seriously needs bigger planes with more capacity all 4 of my flights their wasn’t a single empty seat

[@mohdodat2]

Airlines are most profitable when their aircraft are completely at capacity.

[@zombiedodge1426]

For Southwest to switch after using nothing but 737s for decades, Airbus would pretty much have to give them planes for free. Airbus trying to make a deal just to put the squeeze on Boeing is fair ball, though. It's a tough business, as Bombardier found out. Poor Embraer, forever waiting for the scope clause to be changed...

[@randyreynolds1045]

The A 220 is much better! It was a mistake.

[@gtrjay]

If SWA had the A220 I wonder what routes it would have been on? From pax volume and $$ decision.

[@MrGuzmanra]

What about the Embraer?

[@nick4506]

-700 is not that old they just barely for rid of there last -300 classic a few years ago. fleet commonality is big. a new type would need to be more then just better to consider taking them on.

[@dextermurray2035]

Ryanair and the 737, just as iconic 😂

[@wurly1]

'Iconic' being a loose term... 'Recognised pairing' would perhaps be better? (you can hardly say the 737 and ryanair are "excellent" which is generally something that's also associated with something that's 'iconic')

[@marcman844]

One thing working against Airbus and the A220 is that it doesn't have any fleet commonality with the rest of the Airbus fleet; think Boeing and the 717.

[@justinhaase8825]

WN is not respecting the market option between A220 and 737…lots of opportunities between Branson in the summer and Aspen in the winter…same plane

[@johniii8147]

There was no "real chance" they would have taken the 220. That was just thrown in for negotiations with Boeing to keep the price lower. Everyone ( including Airbus) knew how that would play out. Airbus never even submitted a formal bid. They knew the game being played.

[@icare7151]

Southwest made a major blunder. A new carrier using the A220-200, 300 and coming 500 could overtake Southwest in price wars. The significant more fuel efficient, comfortable and modern A220 series are superior in all aspects. Passengers, pilots and maintenance teams ❤A220 series!

[@solweiser]

You forgot that A220 can’t hold standard cargo bins.

[@hanj31]

I flew United 737-9 from lax to sfo

[@r12004rewy]

Personally I believe the Airbus is a far superior product to the Boeing, it would of been fantastic had Southwest gone in part to Airbus with the lower operating costs that they offer, the 737 MAX is a 50 year old design with fancy winglets it really does look old fashioned in comparison to the Airbus, time will tell if SW made the right decision.

[@isthatso5616]

A 50 year old design still flying, vs.a design that barely had a 20 year production run.. Nice try a340 fan !!!

[@r12004rewy]

So at least we agree that the 737 has had a 50 year production run !!!!!!!! Assume you are a Boeing fan over Airbus ??????

[@Tarvnz]

I think honestly instead of the a220 they should have went with the a321neos, kinda like what United did.

[@danielrioux6410]

Airbus didn't buy the CS100/300 from Bombardier to get into new market segments, Bombardier sought to save itself and the near complete CS100/300 program development before it went bankrupt! Bombardier practically begged Airbus to take over by selling 50% ownership to Airbus for 1$. (there's more details to this deal but that's the main takeaway)

[@DaveMiller2]

The few benefits that the A220 offers are outweighed by the disruption to having a single type fleet. New pilot training and type certification, crew trainings, parts inventory, etc would be far too expensive. Using only the 737 is the cornerstone of Southwests business model. Southwest gets good deals by being an all Boeing customer for 50 years. They were never going to buy the A220.

[@theflashcubing1566]

I think they will ditch it like Porter Airlines😊

[@ronparrish6666]

Porter did it to keep the 4 abreast seating like on there dash 8 that way no one gets a middle seat

[@jarkiiaviation4643]

I feel like ryanair is more associated with the 737, as someone who lives in neither Europe or the US

[@johniii8147]

Southwest has a larger fleet of them than Ryan and been flying them for a lot longer.

[@1bluensx]

Having a fleet of all the same planes, and variants, make maintenance and finding pilots easy….it’s streamlined. Adding an airbus would completely change their model

[@deanwood1338]

Fleet commonality and the threat of switching to get even bigger discounts from Boeing. I seriously doubt Boeing are making much profit at all from the deals with SW

[@michaelosgood9876]

I don't think Airbus could compete pricewise against Boeing who have, perhaps, their most loyal customer in Southwest.

[@mauricevandenakker6015]

With the congress decision to grant Boeing more time to certify the Max 7 and 10 ( i would have loved to see if the US congres would have been so lenient if it would have been Airbus instead of Boeing ) It was always going to be Boeings order to lose.. Airbus has a to big backlog and can not deliver so it is logical that Airbus does not give the same discounts that Boeing does..

[@george6309]

The coffin Max i,After the catastrophes, those planes have such a low reputation that Boeing has to sell them 2 for 1

[@fosterit]

Why do you have a British accent now? Or are you just being sarcastic? Either way. I like it!!!

[@johndoh5182]

There's no VODOO crap or anything to consider about this decision. It's cheaper for SW to have one plane it flies, because when you add another, NOW you need more pilots because you aren't going to have a set of pilots that are trained for both types and actively fly both types which mean they have to constantly redo their certs for both planes. Considering every airline needs pilots and some are having pilot strikes, SW wants to hold onto the pilots it has and doesn't want to deal with trying to find a batch of pilots to fly the A220. It was an easy choice for SW, and the ONLY thing you could take away from SW saying they were considering the A220 even though they never REALLY were was it lets Boeing know they still need to make SW a good deal on the planes, but they got that anyway because of the big delay making the decision even easier. That's the bottom line. Americans, where SW flies are going to have little issues getting onto any planes which have never crashed in the US.

[@ronaldfish1569]

ThY made right choice

[@BrjanBuckmaster]

Due to production problems (BA stock dropped 6%), airlines are being forced to continue using older aircraft. There is a shortage of new parts and so many planes that were retired in Arizona are being parted out and used parts being sold back to the airlines in order to keep their planes flying. I find this to be a scary situation.

[@johniii8147]

There is nothing scary about it. Airline's have LONG used spare parts from retired aircraft. It's nothing new or recent. The parts go through inspections to make sure they are up to snuff.

[@rager-69]

It's been reported that Southwest pressured Boeing to downplay MCAS during the original certification of the 737 MAX so as to keep the current pilot type certification in place and minimize training.

[@albundy5228]

The one video where I wish robot voice was used.....

[@jamesjudge3891]

Adding A220s to the homogeneous 737 airline would add several billions to Southwest's bottem line. The 737 is a reliable aircraft. that's why they stanardized in the first place.

[@Adam_Florida_DZA]

4:01 except us, aviation geeks😅

[@PInk77W1]

The 737-700 is or was the SWA backbone for a long time

[@lagirroc]

I think Airbus would probably have been the way to go. However, they would have squeezed Boeing so hard, that the deal would have been too good to turn down.