Abby is Abysmally Written (The Last of Us 2) | EFAP Highlight

The gang discusses The Last of Us Part 2 and explain why Abby is a terrible character and in which ways Joel was disrespected.
ORIGINAL VIDEO: • EFAP #97 - Checking ou...
WATCH EFAP!
EFAP Main Channel: / @everyframeapause
EFAP Audio Version: / user-624219017
HOSTS’ CHANNELS
MauLer’s Channel: / @mauleryt
Fringy’s Channel: / @fringy
Rags’ Channel: / @rags
COMMUNITY
MauLer Subreddit: / mauler EFAP
EFAP Discord: discordapp.com...
Fan Site: www.efap.me/
MERCH & DONATIONS
MauLer’s Patreon: www.patreon.co...
MauLer’s Subscribestar: www.subscribes...
MauLer’s Merch Store: maulers-store....
Rags’ Patreon: / yourpalrags
Rags’ Subscribestar: www.subscribes...
FEATURED KZbinRS
Theo’s Channel: / @theottree
Weekend Warrior’s Channel: / weekendwarrior1
HeelsVSBabyface’s Channel: / heelvsbabyface
OUTRO MUSIC: Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio

[@EFAPHighlights]

Sorry for the amount of censoring that had to go into this one, guys - KZbin was being hyper uncooperative, possibly having something to do with the original video being age restricted.

[@jammyjamjars6995]

Not…impressed 😢 haha

[@darkroomservice569]

Could you provide a link to the original podcast, or at least mention which number this one was. I cant seem to find a link or any information on how to watch the whole thing, but im on mobile so maybe it just not displayed properly

[@EFAPHighlights]

@@darkroomservice569The name of the podcast and the timestamp is listed on screen seven seconds into the video. There's also a link to the podcast leading to the first timestamp listed in the description section. All videos on this channel go by this format.

[@jammyjamjars6995]

@@EFAPHighlightsI read this as super passive aggressive and I am all for it 😂

[@oldmatejohnno]

this censorship is distasteful... to me!

[@CaptainAfterland]

The funniest (and I'm sure unintended) thing about TLOU2 is that the only character who got a "happy" ending was the "bigot sandwich" guy. All he wanted at the start of the story was fewer lesbians in the camp and, sure enough, by the end of the story, he got his wish!

[@tomgu2285]

Ahahahaha holy shit you are right

[@mattmark94]

Bigot Sandwich Guy: "Who is laughing now?"

[@wangusbeef86]

Based.

[@crimsonking440]

Damn you got me good with that one.

[@3Overhaus]

Comment of the day.

[@electricbayonet2]

As soon as I saw how the second game retconned the appearance of the doctors and he surgery room, I knew we were screwed. What, you remembered a rusty abattoir that couldn’t be cleaned with anything short of divine flames? Nonono, you see, it was a clean and professional surgical suite! Huh? You remembered the doctors wearing filthy, puke-green scrubs? Whaaaaat? No, they were clean as can be and a relaxing shade of light blue. Hold on, a text log in the building where it’s stated that the Fireflies have been butchering living people at various stages of infection, with the implication that they themselves infected them? Shut up, that didn’t exist. The Fireflies as a backstabbing terrorist group that, like most extremist groups, were utterly and delusionally convinced of their own righteousness and willing to do monstrous things in pursuit of deeply unrealistic goals? No, see, they were a professional and benevolent organization that just had to make some tough choices to save humanity, and they totally would have done it if not for that selfish monster Joel.

[@TheHalogen131]

Also in the first game the doctor was black. Or at least dark skinned. They literally whitewashed him lol

[@RhysCallinan-bv1wi]

It's like the Rian Johnson effect for that movie he made (the one where they turned the Mona Lisa) where they retconned certain events. Like Let Blanc or whoever spying behind a tree but then retconned so that he's with the other chick that was never there, or the Drax looking guy appearing in another scene in which he wasn't originally was.

[@lordofthepizzapie9319]

@@RhysCallinan-bv1wi There's something funny about calling Dave Bautista himself "Drax looking". Hmm yes, the floor is made of floor.

[@RhysCallinan-bv1wi]

@@lordofthepizzapie9319 Well I don't watch GotG. So whether Drax was played by Dave or not I wouldn't know. It's just I heard, maybe from these guys when watching someone criticize Drinker for Glass Onion, that he was called Drax. Didn't know if it was a joke by how he looked or if he was the actor who played him.

[@Flaris]

It's absolutely embarrassing that they retconned the previous game to warp reality into telling the story they wanted to tell. If they can't respect their own lore then why should anyone else? Might as well treat the first and second games as coming off entirely different timelines. They can't coexist.

[@aidancoutts2341]

Joel's bad deeds are pragmatic. He kills to survive or to protect others. Abby tortures Joel (after he saved her life) out of pure selfish desire. It's just not comparable. Joel isn't petty. We don't see him dole out suffering needlessly. The cure thing is a sin of inaction rather than a sin of action. He refuses to participate in the administration of a cure with questionable chance of success and impact.

[@sacredbeastzenon]

The biggest problem is a cure is pointless. The world is fucked. Raiders and infected can still kill you. A cure was needed over 20 years ago.

[@vandeheyeric]

Exactly. Like what turned me off of Abby was the raw sadism and torture involved. Like, Joel was probably not going to survive the sequel and almost certainly was not going to make it through a trilogy. Mkay, that's about par for the course. And given Abby and what she has lost (or thinks she's lost) it only makes sense she'll do it. But the complete lack of gratitude or even pragmatism is what alienates me. Moreover, this is the Apocalypse. Quick, clean kills are the acid test of someone's skill and a metric of how you can survive. So going out of your way to make someone suffer speaks against not just Abby's morality but also her skill and ability to think clearly.

[@cynicalmemester1694]

Nah, Joel beats that 1 cannibal to death with a pipe when a gun would've sufficed.

[@TheDarkjedi94]

@@cynicalmemester1694no. On screen he gives him one good bonk on the head. If there’s more than that we don’t see it so it’s not evidence for anything. Abby on screen beats joel with the club over and over again.

[@nathanielslattery7683]

Also Joel didn't trust the Fireflies about the cure they were creating because of the previous failed attempts of making the cure.

[@GeekHelix]

I got a message in 2024 from my friend as she was playing through the game but I promised no spoilers. She asked me: "I've just woken up as Abby in the woods... Be brutally honest with me... how much of the game will I be playing as Abby?" I told her about half of what she's got left to play will be as Abby. She was FURIOUS.

[@EmptyAltruism]

A women of good taste I see…

[@LordTyph]

@@EmptyAltruism She got the game though. Hopefully, it was a gift or a case of 'it can't be THAT bad, right?'

[@EmptyAltruism]

I hate to think of naughty dog getting rewarded for bad behavior but at the end of the day we all get to spend our money how we wish (the amount we are allowed to keep I mean)

[@ThatSamoanGuy]

is she nine, and are you also nine?

[@markm5927]

"I've just woken up as Abby in the woods" sounds like the start of a nightmare

[@nont18411]

The part that people love to overlook was when Abby said to her dad that if she was in Ellie’s shoes, she would sacrifice herself to make her dad complete the experiment…which made her kind of an asshole since the beginning because this was Ellie’s (lack of) choice, not hers. And I know that the intention of Naughty Dog was to show how morally superior Abby is but they accidentally made her condescending to Ellie.

[@-Azure.EXE-]

What's even worse is that Abby thinks Ellie and Joel know what she and her father know. They didn't tell Ellie they planned on kicking out Joel and leaving him without tools to defend himself. They didn't tell Ellie that she was likely going to die. Perhaps zebraman didn't know either but the game didn't bring attention to that dissonance.

[@nont18411]

@@-Azure.EXE- The game wants to demonize Joel and Ellie so of course, they won’t bring attention to Abby and Zebraman.

[@chasewilson3693]

@@-Azure.EXE- Shit, the game even heavily implies that they WON'T succeed in getting a cure. Hell all throughout the game is Joel and Ellie going from defunct firefly base to defunct firefly base, subtly implying that this is a group of idiots in steep decline. That they are killing Ellie not because they actually think they can get a cure, but out of the desperation that if they don't get a cure soon their entire moronic organization is going to collapse. Even if they did succeed, one of the points of the game is that those who have power lord it over others for their own benefit. There was no chance in hell the Fireflies, who were willing to kill the man who traveled ACROSS THE COUNTRY during the apocalypse with their "package" going far above and beyond their original agreement instead of paying what he was rightfully owed (let alone killing an unconscious non-consenting little girl), were going to just start handing out the cure. They were going to use it as a bargaining tool to effectively rule everyone. Druckmann however fired the actual writer who knew this shit and was too stupid to understand the subtlty himself. What a fucking moronic hack fraud.

[@Miyuki2319]

@@-Azure.EXE-They even refused to wake Ellie up to tell her specifically because she might say no. They knew they were just murdering a kid with the thin excuse that a miracle might happen afterwards, and the game still tries to gaslight us into thinking there is any morality to them.

[@riastradh]

Yall are acting like they were trying to save the world. The cure for world wide zombie apocalypse walks into your base, and you think it’s the reasonable solution to NOT save the world? Yeah the way you gotta get it is fucked up, but actually think. Ellie says no. Then what? You just let her walk out, and have to live the rest of your life knowing every kid that gets infected and has to be put down is on you?

[@harrydubois6619]

Ah yes, Dunkey, AKA Schrödinger’s reviewer. Remember, if he makes bad points, then it’s just jokes not meant to be taken seriously. But if he makes points that people agree with, then he’s a genius critic.

[@austin9568AuraMasterDX]

The true form of Quantum Mechanics

[@martyrlogarius3888]

Exactly why I stopped watching him. Can't believe a single word he says

[@capthavic]

​@@martyrlogarius3888 He's one of those content creators I never watched but had heard mentioned occasionally and was allegedly funny. And after the whole LoU2 mess I don't think I was missing anything.

[@dotflann]

And if too many people call you out, cherrypick the comments with no arguments from people with 2 likes and compile them in a video called "gamers review [something i like]" to make yourself look smart.

[@hubblebublumbubwub5215]

In his TloU 2 review it's very easy to tell when he's serious and when he's joking.

[@ViolentMessiah666]

Ah yes, that time Neil Druckmann thought he could write like Hideo Kojima. Not even close son 😂

[@EdgarFriendlysCivicsTeacher]

Hideo Kojima can write?

[@theodorechau3006]

@@EdgarFriendlysCivicsTeacheryou see, that’s the best part about Kojima’s writing. It’s unbelievably stupid if you think about it, but he commits to it so well and the characters have the right amount of both seriousness and cheesiness that I was invested anyways. TLOU2 has all of the seriousness, none of the cheesiness, and is subversive to the detriment of the story.

[@theodorechau3006]

There’s a reason why “U.S. special operations veteran fights his evil British twin brother and there is also a cyborg ninja” is one of the most beloved games of all time.

[@EdgarFriendlysCivicsTeacher]

@@theodorechau3006 a cracking soundtrack and a meme worthy performance from David Hayter?

[@theodorechau3006]

@@EdgarFriendlysCivicsTeacher that among other things for sure.

[@princepython701]

The Last of Us 2 is the Last Jedi of gaming. Everything about the story just makes me pause and ask myself "What the hell were they thinking?"

[@nhagan001]

And we’re still waiting for our “rise of Skywalker” to end this train wreck!

[@scrow7752]

@@nhagan001 Somehow joel returned.

[@ryanwood6754]

What we're they thinking! -AVGN

[@canaldecasta]

@scrow7752 is this was more zombie-like they would 100% bring a zombified Joel back at one point.

[@BrandonHeat243]

I think the core of it is Druckmann's hubris. I mean, imagine thinking you could kill off the well liked main character of series and replace him with his killer and that a lot of fans wouldn't have a HUGE problem with it. Frankly, it sort of disgusted me that so many people didn't have a problem and just consumed/defended the product like good little NPCs. Have some standards. Jesus.

[@Señor-Donjusticia]

1:02:22 He completely missed the point of the “Save the Cat” technique. Abbey’s first scene ISN’T saving the Zebra, it’s GOLFING SOMEONE TO DEATH!

[@ChadKakashi]

Saving the cat: ❌ Golfing Joel: ✅

[@chucheeness7817]

I also like how the chronological order of reveals are. The game is overtly guilt-tripping and gaslighting you, Neil Druckmann's narcissistic tendencies are just in full display

[@canaldecasta]

"Dr. Uckman brains 100" Yuck.

[@blueray222]

I find it hilarious that Abby killing Joel COULD have worked if it had been the twist near the end of the game after going through the rigmarole of endearing a new character to us instead of trying to desperately redeem an axe murderer. It could've been as easy as just changing the order of events to contextualize her hatred first

[@scutumfidelis1436]

That's just SOP when it comes to members of his ethnicity.

[@blafoobob8898]

They should've had Abby think she killed Joel in front of his daughter. Have her see herself in Ellie and realize she did to someone else what was done to her. It makes her redeemable and relatable to the player. It gives her motivation to atone by saving Lev, and it becomes absolutely clear why she spares Ellie in the theater. Instead they hired a sociopathic gawker feminist to write how humans are, which is why Abby is inconsistent and lacks solid motivation for her actions.

[@donalddeluxe6407]

And listened to an activist that has never played a single game over listening to the audience that made him successful.

[@matthiasthulman4058]

Now that you mention it, they could have had Ellie go out in the first part of the game but with Tommy, not Joel. Then have events unfold as they did, but have Tommy start to understand what Abby is here for. Then Tommy will day he is Joel, to save Joel, and have Abby smoke Tommy in front of Ellie etc etc Then you get a story arc with Ellie and Joel going out to restore justice for Tommy. You can still have your "revenge bad" message, you can still have Joel die later on, etc etc

[@jiggycalzone8585]

I have to mention it every time.. *Druckmann is completely wrong about Joel's actions. Full stop. And its been a plague on the series.* Fireflies had no guarantee of success and no 'step 2' if it were: Ellie didnt know it was going to cost her her life and wasnt making an informed choice (confirmed in TLOU2). They intended to kill Joel as well so immediately it can be perceived as self-defense on his part, Ellie aside. Theres no certainty that Ellie is even the only one who has immunity out there*, and no certainty the fireflies wouldnt use a 'cure' as a sort of coercive tool to bend people to their rule once possessed (not to mention how many other 'interested parties' there would be once word gets out) It really paints the fireflies as villains, or incompetent boobs not unlike any of the bandit factions-- which actually is more in line with the spirit of the games that anything Druckmanns been trying to do since *until the tv show forced in the statement that there definitely is NOT anyone else which is knowledge that shouldnt be possible for the character who says it to know at the time they say it, but w/e we'll be here all day. Just more Druckmann forcing the story to go a certain way

[@2ndlegend125]

Iirc, there are logs in 1 that confirm there were other immunes, but they died in the Fireflies experiments.

[@Alkalion69]

Not only did they have no guarantee of success, but they also had no CHANCE of success. Them succeeding with a vaccine makes no sense given the information in the game.

[@donalddeluxe6407]

I remember that there was a recorder from the surgeon that explains this further: “April 28th. Marlene was right. The girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen. The cause of her immunity is uncertain. As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid. Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab... however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal-growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients. We must find a way to replicate this state under laboratory conditions. We're about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we're about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain.”

[@Miyuki2319]

@@donalddeluxe6407The Fireflys sunk-cost fallacy'd their way into serial killing.

[@riastradh]

Yeah sure maybe Ellie isn’t the only one immune out there. How the ACTUAL fuck are they supposed to find someone else? Besides the biological miracle of being immune in the first place, the chances of someone finding out they’re immune requires them to both not neck themselves or get got by someone else. Then you have to FIND them. Ellie was one in a million even if there are other immune out there

[@nadrewod999]

The saddest part about Joel's death is that he doesn't actually have to kill Abby's dad in the first game: there are some very specific instructions you have to follow, but you can rescue Ellie from the hospital without killing the head doctor, thereby leaving the remaining Fireflies with a chance of continuing their experiments in the future with INFORMED AND WILLING VOLUNTEERS rather than with oblivious kidnapped children. Instead, Cuckman was too stupid to understand that the Fireflies were the villains of the first game, so he wasted the series by making the second game try to retcon them into heroes.

[@StNerevar76]

They decide to kill the only immune around after very basic testing and the audience has to believe they knew what they were doing. Worryingly, many do...

[@kelpermoon23]

???

[@The_child-catcher]

​@@kelpermoon23??? See, I can do it too.

[@Mondoness]

@@kelpermoon23 wow man, that chip on your shoulder is pretty telling.

[@oldmatejohnno]

@@kelpermoon23 ???

[@mattmark94]

The heart of TLOU was Joel and Ellie. If you kill off Joel, let alone in the worst way possible, why the hell should I care. Also Ellie's entire personality in the sequel is pretty much: angry and bitter lesbian.

[@zef9151]

"Angry and bitter lesbian" Yes, it is exactly these kind of people irl who are ruining everything for everyone.

[@snapslav]

Oh, is Ellie gay, by the way? Huh, I had no idea! When was this established? Must have been too subtle to notice... ~_~

[@EmptyAltruism]

Yep, it’s like she’s not Ellie or something. So with no Joel and an Ellie that might as well not be Ellie, and half the game revolving around a character I resent and have no desire to play as, and almost no mushroom zombies in the mushroom zombie game…why in the bloody hell would I ever want to touch TLOU2? I'd rather eat a bigot sandwich than play TLOU2…I’d rather give Abby a reach around than play TLOU2…I’d rather trade places with the zebra than play TLOU2…

[@Adorni]

I can’t believe you women-haters. Abby’s dad saved a zebra, okay? And also changed his melanin levels. You know who _didn’t_ save a zebra? *_Joelseph Stalin Hitler Miller._*

[@jonaswerner8480]

Atleast the lesbian part is realistic

[@lukebarroso449]

My brother to this day can't stand how they brutally demolished Joel and Ellie. I genuinely can't think of a single scene from the game I remember that was actually good nor do I remember any of the characters. I only remember the cringe. The first will always be superior. Edit: I was reminded of the museum scene. Loved that part

[@JasonFlake-op1ll]

We got Jess remember him!

[@dean_l33]

That's not true. We got fat Gerald remember

[@nont18411]

Don’t forget Mel, a pregnant lady who insisted to go into a war zone mainly to show how much of an asshole Ellie is.

[@TBone4Breakfast]

The museum flashbacks are so genuinely good that it makes me ever more pissed that the rest of the game is the way it is.

[@lukebarroso449]

@@TBone4Breakfast i take it back the museum was pretty good. Honestly, I got lost in the cringe and forgot about that good scene. Thanks for helping me remember

[@xel1673]

"If they have a gym, why doesn't anyone else use it? Why is Abby the only roided up one." Because she's the roided up one. That gym is her space. So nobody wants to upset the crazy roided up person who tortures people to death with golf clubs.

[@hideousruin]

Abby tortured and maliciously murdered the man who had just risked his life to save her. At the very least she should have let him escape after telling him that next time she sees him she would kill him.

[@kaydenjones3183]

I don’t really see this as a point. She did a bad thing instead of a good thing this isn’t a writing issue.

[@TheTrueRandomGamer]

​@@kaydenjones3183It is when the game refuses to make her reckon with that bad thing compared to other characters.

[@kaydenjones3183]

@@TheTrueRandomGameri agree with this but not what you originally said

[@TheTrueRandomGamer]

@@kaydenjones3183 I...didn't originally say anything.

[@kaydenjones3183]

@@TheTrueRandomGameroh lol i thought you were the guy i replied to . Yeah i agree with you, but i dont agree with what the guy said

[@capthavic]

LoU2 really was the Last Jedi of gaming. Not only because it killed the associated series, but it also exposed the shills who would defend it.

[@amanpingle1497]

How they pulled the trifecta, I WILL NEVER KNOW. The same shitty Subversion, Political Agenda, Defenses.... But for a game, a TV show, and a movie. All in quick fucking succession. How is it that GOT, this, and TLJ all have the same dogshit ideas, and their defenders never learned from the last fucking thing? Dystopian timeline.

[@nont18411]

Now it’s also Marvel, Rocksteady, anything Vanguard, Blackrock and Sweet Baby touched.

[@nont18411]

Also GOT started this trend, by the way. And it got so much praises for being a breath of fresh air. That’s why the other studios followed it.

[@NoPantsBaby]

It's simple. They made their audience into the enemy. The simps defending them want to feel as being part of the club. So they attack the fans too. This self destructive spiral leads to shit products.

[@Hunterese123]

How about move on with your life, it's not that deep dog

[@backupschmliff1156]

Hey back off man. Ghost of Tsushima is an awesome game.

[@Jetblast01]

Abby is one of the worst written protagonists I've ever seen. Someone who does horrible things but feels no regret over it. Even Ma-Rey-Sue felt bad when she thought she killed Chewbacca. Abby feels...nothing except when it inconveniences her.

[@Koda.R]

A character that doesnt feel regret of killing is no new But placing that character in the same game where Ellie in the entirety of her parts builds up some serious ptsd while being more justified is what makes her the worst written and most disconnected character in the game.

[@GenesisBoi]

She has the hallmarks of a great antagonist just make it where she knows she is a bad person and revels in it. Dont try to give her sympathy points, dont try to redeem and have her die with a smile or laughing to show that she doesnt fear death and will likely be waiting in hell for us when its our time.

[@ThatSamoanGuy]

@@GenesisBoi You all missed the point entirely.

[@GenesisBoi]

@@ThatSamoanGuy which is?

[@lukescrew1981]

Imagine being this wrong

[@The_Truth_Logic]

This “character” was a failure since conception, let alone execution. I ponder if Sweet Baby Inc was involved…

[@RH_Collective]

Anita Sarkisian was... with Neil... They fired the lead female writer of the first game, btw.

[@denkerbosu3551]

​@@RH_Collective was she the writer? I think there was a xo director, and that one left, leaving Cuckmann free to do whatever he wanted to so in part 1 to do it in part 2.

[@capthavic]

Not directly, but the same kind of toxic mindset.

[@-Azure.EXE-]

Not everything bad is Sweet Baby. This was Drukman and his writing team.

[@raze2798]

​@@denkerbosu3551IIRC, Neil was so impressed by Anita that he took basically all of her advice into account, and he alone wrote TLoU2, while 1 was written by multiple people. So no, I don't think Anita or Sweet Baby (I'm not even sure Sweet Baby was active at this time) had any direct involvement. This was all Druckmann

[@marymaza2187]

Dina and Ellie got their farm AND a kid, whose father, Jessie died without even knowing he was going to be a dad. He was literally written to be a sperm donor, and then was killed off instead of being allowed to survive and share custody with Dina. Guess having a straight man visiting often would've ruined Dina and Ellie's happy farm family life.

[@lulukomadori9651]

I'll never find it funny that this game won goty during one of the worst year for the world, it just so fitting

[@harrydubois6619]

Everyone knows the real goty that year was Ghost of Tsushima

[@lulukomadori9651]

@@harrydubois6619 I saw so many fans of FF7 cry during the remake, something I honestly never see any remake ever do still

[@EmptyAltruism]

FF7 original was better imo. Didn’t bother finishing the “remake” even though it was gorgeous. If only they had kept the core of the game the same and just added voice lines while updating the graphics. I prolly would have been in heaven. Meh, oh well. I don’t play Squenix games anymore unless they are free. And yeah, ghost of Tsushima was the true winner.

[@Xeno_Solarus]

​@@EmptyAltruism awful take on FF7 remake. It and Rebirth are peak tier games. You literally just don't understand the story.

[@-PVL93-]

​@@Xeno_Solarusit's peak fire bro

[@UniversalConscript]

It's almost insulting how obviously they try to manipulate you into liking Abby and her friends. It feels very cheap.

[@kaydenjones3183]

Most things in a story are trying to manipulate you. Poor wording

[@GeraltofRivia22]

​@@kaydenjones3183 yes, but it's bad writing if the audience can feel that manipulation.

[@cassiushellsin6243]

Thank Christ there’s still people legitimately being critical of this abysmal story after seeing people praising it. Funny enough, I ranted about it on another video who thought Abby’s motivations were “justified,” but then the author of that video deleted my comment lol. Puss N Boots: The Last Wish is a kids movie and yet it has better writing than this shit.

[@elperrodelautumo7511]

Yes that’s true. Death would be more of Joel’s demise than Abby. It’s the execution that makes results.

[@EmptyAltruism]

Last Wish was ok, but I didn’t like it as much as the crew, and definitely not as much as Fringy. Still, it was decent and the (dare I say it?) themes were well done and even kind of poignant.

[@lukescrew1981]

No it doesn't

[@gs4011]

My D&D character had a moment similar to what Mauler mentions early on. My character's family is cursed and he wants nothing more than to fix it. He gets told "hey capture this woman and her guardian and I'll have my people fix you." The party finds them at a festival but by pure coincidence a large monster starts attacking the crowd. Instead of fleeing, the two hunted people help and my character and the party can't turn them over, these are clearly good people who have a side of the story to tell. My character laments this, "why did they have to be good people?" It was a great character moment.

[@Sousabird]

Joel in One: PGA Tour

[@The_child-catcher]

The last of us 2 was directly created the way it was as revenge for the way us fans played the last of us. I remember reading an article in game info like 8 years ago where Neil cuckman said " obviously sacrificing Ellie was the right decision, so i was surprised when over 80% of players saved her on their first playthrough ". He went on to say he wanted the sacrifice ending to be the canonical ending, but if that's not the one the fans wanted he would have to think up something special for them.

[@TheHalogen131]

Wait... What? There's no "sacrifice ending". Unless you are taking about some old build that was presented to a test audience.

[@RhysCallinan-bv1wi]

​@@TheHalogen131I think it's an idea he wanted, and would've added later if he could, but fan love for the actual ending was too much and he couldn't. At least that's my idea as to what happened.

[@CommanderLongJohn]

Neil Cuckmann, the genius who wanted the disease to only infect women for some reason . . . . among other horrendous ideas that were never finalized, all the guy did was come up with the core concept of a 'father-daughter team' like The Road (only with a girl) or Book of Eli, the rest of his ideas for the meat and potatoes of the game and story were so f*cking bad and baffling it's nuts lol.

[@williamfrank962]

@@TheHalogen131which is even funnier because apparently there was going to be two endings to this game. One where you kill Abby and one where you let her live apparently. I’m assuming if this is true Druckmann knew for a fact that everyone would kill Abby and scrapped it so she can only be saved.

[@The_child-catcher]

@@williamfrank962 it would go a long way towards redeeming this game if they let you choose if you could end her, but they knew what we would all choose. That's why that took all choice away from us in this game.

[@anthonysaylor8120]

Saw the thumbnail, got here faster than a speeding golf club. Smashing.

[@jonathansalgado6368]

Yeah I usually don’t watch some efap or mauler vids cause they’re so long. But this one? Oh boy grab the popcorn 🍿

[@JasonX909]

You could say the way she killed Joel gave her character quite the... handicap.

[@matheusorth5365]

They could have done it like in Terminator 2: Joel saves Abby, which makes her question the view she had of him, prompting her to talk rather than kill on sight.

[@lordofthepizzapie9319]

That would've gone against Neil's wish to have Joel murdered.

[@isaackane4931]

The Zebra scene is still so goddamn hilarious to me. That, supposed, adult humans came up with it to try and post-hock endear us to Dr. Malpractice. It's what you'd see in a parody, or a story written by kids just starting out. Truly Cuckman was 100 brains. Christ, it's nearly been five years since this shitshow too, and Naughty Dog's done nothing but desperately re-release the games to try and stay relevant. Hope it was worth it.

[@TheHalogen131]

I love Dr. Malpractice. I'm stealing it.

[@AzureKnight2]

I'm curious how the re-release of the game has done. Especially when compared to re-releases of the original game.

[@crimsonking440]

No. Shut up. It was last year. I'm not old goddamnit. *Pulls up his pants by the suspenders, dusts off his leather jacket, and combs over his rapidly receding hair line* I'm still cool!

[@zenksren8206]

Naughty Dog is dead as a studio thanks to that parasite

[@HonkHonkler]

I think TLOU part 2 tricked people like Dunkey into thinking it was good because it included characters we loved and they had an edgy/controversial death of one of them. And to a small mind like Dunkey's, that equals good story-telling lol. Ignoring they made Joel $tupid to die, it's rushed, there's no real internal conflict with Abby's actions outside of (MAYBE because I don't even think it's ever actually said) a throwaway line and HEAVY implication from people defending the bad writing. Same with making Joel a $tupid survivor in just 5 years after 20+ years of HARD survival. MUH CYCLE OF REVENGE BAD M'KAY!

[@GeraltofRivia22]

It seems like the people who defend TLOU Pt2 and the Last Jedi are easily impressed by ideas, concepts and themes, regardless of execution. Revenge bad is a powerful theme, therefore TLOU PT2 is deep and complex, even if the way its conveyed is idiotic and makes no sense.

[@HonkHonkler]

@@GeraltofRivia22 Yep.

[@AjayRiver]

Every time they try and properly call her out on her action its undercut Owen begins insulting her revenge quest and telling her it wasn't the right thing to do and then starts doing the deed with her after she attacks him Mel calls her out for being bad and Yaira immediately tells her well I think your good If they let these moments settle on Abby I think she'd be less annoying to people

[@nadrewod999]

Also, if they had focused on Abby from the beginning (and even given the player some choice in how her revenge story turns out), players might have started out more willing to play as Abby. However, if they still got railroaded into the golf scene and were still prevented from killing Abby in any future encounters, the overall opinion of the game would have still ended up shit.

[@AjayRiver]

@@nadrewod999 the original ending was ellie kills her funnily enough but i imagine bc of lev they changed it

[@ericchung3177]

The fact that people still simp for this glorified movie depresses me to no end.

[@kelpermoon23]

????

[@EmptyAltruism]

That’s an insult to movies everywhere….

[@5FingerBallad]

I play Last of Us part 2 like I watch the Prequel trilogy: I love the game, but I ain’t gonna ignore the flaws, and I find a sense in community pointing out those flaws (and the pros) with others

[@kelpermoon23]

@@5FingerBallad careful, that take is a bit too nuanced!

[@kelpermoon23]

@awhellnah__ wdym?

[@tskwerl]

I think the ultimate irony is that the message (REVENGE=BAD!) they were trying to convey is completely lost. Ellie murders her way through scores of people to get to Abby. How many fathers, brothers, sisters, mothers, daughters, sons, cousins, uncles and aunts now want to find and kill her for what she did to *their* loved ones now? She didn't stop they cycle of revenge by not killing Abby. She started several hundred new ones. 😆

[@zenksren8206]

Also fuck the cycle, Abby shouldn't be allowed to get away with her revenge period. The real message of the game is "Revenge for me but not for thee"

[@Dsan805]

Take a female who is immune to the virus. Instead of seeing if she can pass some level of immunity to her offspring, make her gay and never explore that angle. My assumption is that TLoU3 will never even consider that.

[@NoPantsBaby]

The horrendous writing of TLOU2 is legit masterful. It fails at everything it tries.

[@crimsonpotemkin]

Wolf's putting in the hours 💪🐺

[@janehrahan5116]

stronk doggo

[@AcidifiedMammoth]

​@@janehrahan5116Doggo Primo

[@EmptyAltruism]

Stronk doggo=best comment

[@scrawled_inblack9882]

Thanks for doing this again it IRKS me the way people gloss over the enormous failure that was Abby's character and how malicious this game's plot this really is towards its original fans.

[@EmptyAltruism]

Malicious…well said, I like your word choice. It’s very appropriate and accurate

[@Miyuki2319]

The Last of Us 2 is a perfect example of writers failing to understand their own story. The Fireflys (including Abby) are just another bandit group. A vaccine is basically useless at this point in the story. The only bad thing we ever see Joel do is not explain what happened to Ellie at the end of TLoU1, and that's because the writers accidentally wrote a scenario where Joel is entirely in the right to kill all the Fireflys, instead of the morally gray scenario that they clearly wanted to write.

[@lauralynz1907]

I don't think it was an accident. It is far too clear they meant the FFs to look awful through the whole game, including (and especially) at the hospital. I do think Neil had to submit to Bruce's vision far more than he really wanted (despite his 2013 IGDA Keynote where he agreed with it all) and got really, really angry about that later. Thus we got TLOU2.

[@Miyuki2319]

@@lauralynz1907I think they really wanted the final level to be a difficult moral decision where the player has to think about whether they would sacrifice someone they care about for the sake of all humanity. I think they wanted us to believe that the FFs were forced into extreme actions for the greater good, at least to an extent. But, they f'd it up and made Joel's decision to save Ellie the unambiguously correct one and the FFs into moustache-twirling badmin.

[@lauralynz1907]

@@Miyuki2319 Sorry this is a long one so TL;DR - You're right the writers mentioned that difficult moral decision and it would definitely make for a better struggle within players at Joel's SLC actions contrasted with the those of the FFs. Yet everything put in (which required actual thought and effort to do) works against instead of for it to such a degree it cannot be an error and seems much more like specific intent. While nothing put it contradicts my framing of what I saw instead. I've begged repeatedly for in-game proof to support that their intent was to write and visually cue us to that as their desired presentation and premise regarding the FFs specifically because I cannot find it, yet I hear others mention this a lot! My fuller explanation follows: You're right I've heard them talk about that "What would you do for a loved one" dilemma. Yet everything in the game tells such a different perspective of just how incompetent, dwindling and desperate the FFs turned out to be, culminating in their totally irrational acts in SLC. These include (but aren't limited to): Joel seeing the surgeons large shadows on the OR curtains before he enters (a well-known horror trope) plus the filthy OR with mold on the walls and the filthy surgeon in combat boots, all with sickly green gowns and yellow lighting (another visual cue of horror tropes). Mold on the walls (and the other filth) had to be intentionally added to the room, that's not a mistake. After repeatedly highlighting mold spores as a huge danger, one cannot then dismiss the fact that mold on the walls in an OR means spores in the air which means the minute they opened Ellie's skull any sample is immediately compromised and unsterile (unsuitable for use in creating any treatment for humans). Their CO scientist releases infected monkeys from the lab, immediately showing a lack of concern for any of ther future encounters with humans who may end uyop as he did bit and infected. This alongside making a point of declaring the five years of failure and incompetence he's seen (and now contributed to!). There is literally not a single thing they did put in that made me trust these people. I've repeatedly begged people to give some in-game reason to believe one can find the FFs had a single positive reason for me to believe they could trusted as benevolent, or some slight proof of their humanitarian commitment on display at all at the end (or anywhere!). Even all the recorders and notes tell a story of desperation and irrationality. Most importantly the surgeon's admission he's never seen anything like it and has no idea if he can replicate it in the lab! So why the rush to murder instead of at the very least taking a tissue biopsy of the mutated version only available on her4 brain (her blood grows the normal version of cordyceps as every other infected) and see if it will even survive outside the host currently keeping it alive and beneficially mutated? The only answer I've gotten is that it makes it a better story to believe that actually the FFs knowing what to do would be true (absent an ounce of proof). Still that requires the writers to have agreed and put that stuff in somewhere. So why didn't they? That's too big an omission to disregard it as some accidental error. Especially if their true intent was to create the struggle within us you mention about Joel's actions in contrast with the FF's being shown in any way to be humane, altruistic, meticulous and competent in their medical team. (Something the rest of their group has certainly not displayed in all their militaristic actions, and especially in their dealings with Joel and Ellie from the moment of their arrival). Please simply provide any proof that's what the writers actually intended - beefing up the medical arm of their faction to convince me that they tried and failed. Since even that is glaringly missing completely for me. Yet I assure you I understand people who correctly state that would make for a better story, for sure. Thanks if you got this far, it's my greatest frustration about TLOU lovers having this different interpretation and I so like to have the full insight from those who hold the opposing view to mine! Even if I can't embrace it, just to finally see it would be greatly appreciated.

[@Miyuki2319]

@@lauralynz1907I completely get your perspective. I also think that all the FF's actions point to them being just another group of bad guys, same as the rest. However, the evidence that the writers intended for the player to feel conflicted about the FF's motivations is in how Joel interacts with them. With every other group of humans he encounters, Joel is slow to trust and quick to attack. He interprets any level of underhanded behavior as hostile and moves decisively to solve that problem unless the person immediately apologizes and backtracks. With the FFs (and only the FFs), he acts like he's willing to accept not getting paid as he was promised. He's willing to accept having his life threatened. He's willing to accept Ellie being offscreened without being able to speak to her or understand her perspective on it. He's willing to take all the bad treatment the FFs give him until they are about to kick him out the door to go hug zombies without his supplies. At that point, he's finally pushed to realize that it's his life or theirs and his reaction is to sigh like "I really didn't want to do this". He didn't care about or hesitate with any other group, but this one gets his sympathy for some reason. I think the reason is that the designers intended the audience to see the FFs as sympathetic. Instead of (correctly) interpreting their lack of supplies, organization, direction, and logistical support as them being incompetent bunglers not to be trusted with a butter knife, we are supposed to view them as the scrappy underdogs gambling everything on the chance to save humanity. Their early fireworks in a populated area actions are supposed to be viewed as freedom fighters (FF) opposing the tyrannical government-esque structure of the walled area. Their borderline rabid desire to harvest Ellie is supposed to be viewed as a caring maternal figure realizing that she has "no choice" but to sacrifice her child to save humanity from the pit and just wanting to get it over with as quickly and painlessly for everyone as she can. The disgusting OR I attribute to re-using assets for most of the objects, instead of creating clean versions. The objects around where Ellie is (where the player is expected to focus on, I guess) are clean, if not accurate to what is actually needed. The shadow behind the screen is intended to invoke horror imagery, where Joel sees a monster about to attack Ellie. However, when the screen is pulled aside, there is a normal doctor and nurse that are frightened by an armed man suddenly barging in. It's intended to be a subversion, where Joel thinks these people are monsters, but they are actually just normal people doing their jobs (please ignore that their jobs seem to be child brain removal on the regular). There's also the musical score swelling very sadly and dramatically as Joel runs out of the building with Ellie. I think the final scene where Ellie wakes up and Joel refuses to explain exactly what happened only makes sense if Joel feels very conflicted about what he did. It doesn't make any kind of sense why he would care, given the facts, but it makes less sense for him to not talk to Ellie about it unless he felt bad. Basically, I think there is a set of conclusions to draw based on the factual information presented, and there is a set of conclusions based on the character emotion and music choices. If you are a more fact-based person, you side with the facts and conclude that the FFs are bad and the only way Joel could have been a better person is if he'd been more thorough with the cleanup. If you are a feelings-based person, you conclude that Joel lost his rationality to his feelings and gave up on fixing humanity to save someone he cared about. I'm on team facts, but I understand that team feelings is about 75% of the population, statistically speaking.

[@lauralynz1907]

@@Miyuki2319 Well thanks, that gives me some insight into how you can get there at least. I generally test high logic but also high empathy so it's always a crap shoot how I'll react to situations. I saw Joel as playing for time and desperately trying to formulate a plan because the FFs were acting so odd, not trusting the FFs in the least because they start with knocking him out during CPR (not to mention Marlene's order to shot him if he causes trouble!). To me that breaks trust immediately and then solidifies the danger he and Ellie are both in. But I can at least see that you can have your view and it helps you with what's missing for me to get to where you got. I see his talk with Marlene telling him, "It's what she would want," in the garage as a total shock to Joel, but he sees Marlene believes it and doesn't know why. For me that's why he lies to Ellie, not out of feeling bad but because what if Marlene was right? Now he must protect Ellie from ever thinking that there's even a possibility of using her immunity for anything. Though I can see that some could interpret it your way for sure. It's only when Ellie finally tells him about Riley back at Jackson that Joel understands why Marlene said/believed what she did. So it's knowing it's Ellie's undeserved guilt driving that thought for Marlene and potentially for Ellie, too, that causes him to double down and continue the lie - for Ellie's sake.Because he sees it's not her responsibility to shoulder that burden or sacrifice herself for the world Joel knows only too well. Of course a naive, idealistic teen would be vulnerable to persuasion in that circumstance. Yet it would be the ultimate cruelty to tell her the truth at that point because she's not equipped or in the right mental head space (or the necessary maturity) to have that option presented to her at that moment. Thanks though, at least I can see how people got where you got with it all. It's so fascinating how our unique wiring, story preferences, temperaments and personal experiences can totally change how we view all the exact same facts and come up with very different conclusions! Your, and perhaps the writers, desire for the more complex dilemma makes sense to me, yet my interpretation still gave me dilemmas of my own, especially with Joel killing Marlene when she was no longer an immediate threat. Plus, initially Joel's lies bothered, me until I realized they both came immediately after he learned surprising new information and that caused him to choose protective dad mode for Ellie's sake above all else. I'm very grateful you took the time to respond so thoroughly. It helped a lot to finally get your insights on it all. Cheers.

[@TheRightTackle_]

Always cracks me up when mainstream gaming IG accounts will post a picstich of Elden Ring, Read Dead Redemption 2, God of War Ragnarok and The Last of Us 2 and the caption is like "Ayo one gotta go, what are you picking????" lol stop it.

[@Usernamehear]

RD2 obviously

[@cynicalmemester1694]

​@@UsernamehearLOU2 is the most obvious choice.

[@demod2080]

Abby is an evil psycho who steals everything of Joel's worth in gameplay, murders him, and forces the narrative that she should be forgiven. I have no sympathy for a deranged monster.

[@mantasr]

Joel was morally correct

[@TheInfiniteAmo]

Obviously so. I don't think anyone reasonable sees this any other way, even with TLoU2 retconning his actions in the hospital.

[@Сайтамен]

He did it for selfish reasons, but the circumstances were on his side.

[@canaldecasta]

There was recently a viral conversation about would you save a loved one or 300 inmates or similar. People condeming Joel's choice would do the same.

[@2ndlegend125]

​@canaldecasta if it was the same one I saw, it was everyone on death row vs 1 loved one.

[@jmass4207]

@@canaldecastaIt’s different if they are actively trying to kill your loved one. The series sells you on the notion that people are very depraved, but suddenly reverting the trend of alien fungus will redeem everything? Joel has no reason to view the basket of humanity as anything different than a bunch of people trying to kill his loved one.

[@RealHorsen]

TLOU season 2 of the TV show is going to be such a shit show. I can't wait

[@jmass4207]

You know it will be 100% faithful too. No “artistic freedom” will be worth contradicting such Brilliance.

[@sammorin254]

I can't wait all the people that will turn on it fr

[@lukescrew1981]

Wrong, it's going to be as good if not better than the game

[@lukescrew1981]

@TheOneWhomCamps Except it's not trash

[@lukescrew1981]

@TheOneWhomCamps Again, wrong. The plot and characterisation were great, stop being wrong

[@HonkHonkler]

And Rags called it lol. When I hear people like Dunkey explain why something trash is great, it really is like: _"Just HOW simple is your small mind?"_ Not pretending I'm some enlightened genius, but like people like Dunkey REALLY can't see how $tupid the writing and message is? have I.Q.s dropped THAT much in recent years?

[@DrViperVideos]

I have a friend to this day that cries at tlou2 and thinks abby is similar to joel. God bless her heart, she’s a good person but not the brightest bulb..

[@DMAN99]

Random idea for Joel’s death; Imagine if you establish that Abby has been talking for years to her friends about this guy who killed her dad, it haunts her everyday and negatively effects her and they can all see that. In her mind, she’s built Joel up to be a monster because it’s the only way she can rationalise this horrible act since she views her dad so highly. She’s unable to process anything else and actively avoids the possibility of what Joel is and his reasons, she just knows she wants him dead. So like I said, she’s been talking about this to her friends for years and they all treat it like gospel, they believe in the devil named Joel. They see her struggling to sleep, her breaking down randomly from anger, sadness or frustration (because she’s so focused on this idea of Joel, it eats away at her) and all of them want to kill Joel for her sake. Now when Abby actually meets Joel, she’s presented with reality, that he’s just a tired old man trying to survive, the thoughts of killi;g him are still there but now she’s conflicted, her friends find out or she tells them by accident and we end up with Joel at the mercy of the group once more, only this time you have a heavily conflicted Abby and her friends are riled into a bloodthirsty frenzy, they want Joel dead for Abby’s sake, they want this monster dead so they beat him relentlessly with malicious glee, full sadistic because they’re “doing the right thing” but Abby’s just stunned, unable to act due to the inner conflict until one of her friends passes her the golf club to let her have the final hit only she’s hesitant, almost freezing up with the club held high, she’s almost not going to do anything until her friends begin to shout what he’s done, how he’s hurt her, basically they overload her with encouragement until she takes that one, solitary swing and kills Joel. Her friends cheer, hug her and they move on but Abby for the rest of the game would be wracked with conflicting emotions, at first basically being gaslight into thinking she’s morally correct until she’s faced with the reality that is Ellie AND Tommy now hunting down all of her friends and murdering them as well, also with sadism as revenge for Joel. The culmination would be Abby’s death by the hands of Ellie who doesn’t even care for Abby’s reasons. Abby dies just like Joel did, like an animal which would be ironic since she never cared for Joel’s reasons till after the deed was done and now she’s been put down by someone who doesn’t care for HER reasons. Ellie is left a broken mess with no direction with a little glimpse of hope but you then have someone like Lev being shown to now be hunting down Ellie in an vicious cycle of revenge that won’t break because of the nature of these people.

[@EmptyAltruism]

They said “Ellie standing over someone watching them choke on spores while she’s fine because she’s immune” was a cool idea, and in theory I agree but I can’t buy it in the end. If you think about it, even if she’s immune to the infectious nature of the spores she still would be inhaling physical matter into her lungs, right? Just because you aren’t breathing in carcinogenic asbestos, that doesn’t mean breathing in non-carcinogenic dry wall is suddenly fine. Maybe not the best analogy but that’s the first thing that came to mind. I still like the general idea though, her capitalizing on her immunity could be really neat. Just a little nitpick :)

[@xel1673]

Imagine if we got a game that has Ellie living with the guilt OF surviving. She doesn't blame Joel for saving her. She is glad to be alive. She's glad for the experiences that Joel's choice allowed her to have. It's hard, but she doesn't resent Joel for saving her (thinking she'd likely do the same if it was Joel or her gf or anyone else she loves in the position Joel was in), but she has survivor's guilt. When she sees people die of the infection she feels guilty and questions if it is wrong of her to be there. If she should have died to make a cure, even if it was a long shot. Then she meets Abby (who would be a better written character). The game could have the two saving one another, having each others back, and forming a friendship with Ellie, maybe infiltrating their group. There are times that Abby seems to show a guilty or conflicted expression, but it quickly passes. Maybe Ellie's gf feels something is off about Abby, but Ellie wrongly assumes her gf is just being jealous, which could cause a bit of conflict there. However, it eventually comes out who Abby is and her goal is to kill Joel and kidnap Ellie. Joel is either away on a mission, thus sparring him, or Abby maybe tricks Ellie and Joel to head somewhere with her. Its then she leads them into a trap. Maybe Ellie's gf followed them out of concern and aids Ellie and Joel in escaping, but not without Joel being injured. So Ellie must protect Joel and her gf as they try to avoid Abby and co pursuing her, along with all the usual dangers like clickers and gangs. In a reveal of her reasons for wanting revenge, Abby asserts to Ellie what actually happened to her father at the hands of Joel. It is different from what Joel told her. Elements of truth in the story provides some credence to the events and could make it seem like Joel wasn't completely honest. Joel, however, just didn't want to relive it all or give her the details, wanting to spare her what he had to do to save her. Ellie's world is shaken and she really starts to question herself and not giving up her life for the cure. Of course, Abby's version is full of errors that Joel tries to call out, but is cut off. Abby's completely convinced her dad was an amazing person along with the organization he was in. After the trauma of losing her dad she can only have a positive outlook on his actions, setting him on a pedestal. Abby she believes the new organization she is with is also good. She could have even been the one to inform them of Ellie's resistance to the spores. This new group is actually far more sinister. They approached Abby knowing who her father was and what he did, thus using her for information and then as a tool. Maybe there are even people amongst the group she recognizes as acquaintances of her dad to further add validity to everything in her mind and set her down that path to revenge. Perhaps Abby's father had good intentions and was a good man, but the group he was with was cultish and messed up. They could have wanted to do good, but were ready to kill a girl for a 1% chance of succeeding. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Now this new group in the 2nd game could be truly messed up at the top. It leads the regular people working for them it is all for a cure, but it isn't altruistic. The plan IS to keep the cure for themselves. Then basically become the leaders of a new world, and the "chosen ones" are cured for their new world. They could also use the spores as literal weapons against anyone who stands against them. Heck, maybe there are other people who are resistant to the spores besides Ellie, but they are very, very rare. And the procedure to make the cure does usually kill the subject. Thus making the created cure rare and people are willing to do ANYTHING for the organization to get it. Thus the reason why the organization wants Ellie is to create a few more cures for them to sell off or use for themselves or their "chosen" people. Then Ellie would also have to fight other people who are resistant and an organization that uses the spores as weapons. Making putting Joel and Ellie's gf in greater danger, which only Ellie can take on alone. Especially as it starts to threaten the community that Ellie, Joel, and gf girl all come from and others. The story would have Abby helping these org people, still under the delusion of the good she is doing and getting the revenge she wants, but gradually uncovering the truth about who she is working for, as well as make her realize her glorified image of her father isn't accurate. While Ellie tries to wrestle with her survivor's guilt and running to avoid this new group trying to capitalize on her resistant body trying to save the life of a badly injured and weak Joel, who she needs to get to a doctor and get him back home to safety. As well as have her non-combatant gf who is trying the best she can in the difficult circumstances. It would have Ellie and Joel dealing with their guilt and conflicts, the challenges of surviving and out-living others, and having talks about morality when the cost is someone lives and someone dies. Especially as Ellie has to start making similar hard choices that Joel had to make in Game 1 to save the life of those he cares about. The game could have Ellie and her gf actually having a relationship, with ups and downs, making them more realistic. Choices Ellie (and the player) makes could also affect the relationship she has with her gf. Certain answers will start to harm the relationship or strengthen it. Until you are either a close couple, or the gf cannot stand being with the person Ellie is anymore and leaves her once everything is over. Maybe Abby also has people she wants to protect and she also works for this organization thinking she'll get a cure for one or several of her loved ones, which further incentivizes her to fight Ellie to capture her and kill Joel. The story could have been more about that, with a better arc than Ellie just running around being a bitter shrew killing everyone for revenge until she suddenly doesn't and Abby being awful and just an all-around completely awful experience to play as.

[@lauralynz1907]

And people that love it say there was no other story to tell, then accuse those who dislike it of media illiteracy! Nice job, there are so many other ways to have gone and only a lack of imagination says otherwise. That added to a stubborn man who had to tell this and only this story because of his own demons and obsessive inability to hear others' opinions (repeatedly) and let it go. You cannot teach others your personal epiphany - that's obvious to anyone who has ever tried to share one of their own and seen eyes glaze over. His epiphany was for him, it came at the right time for him and it isn't something he can induce in others, especially the way he tried to do it: badly.

[@ThatBlueSkull]

the last of us ended well i dont think part 2 should be created at all

[@xel1673]

@@ThatBlueSkull I certainly wouldn't argue with that. But you know a game studio and those at the top involved nowadays wouldn't let a good game go without a sequel. So if there had to be one... Heck, if anything, they should have left out Joel and Ellie and made another game in the same world as TLoU. At least then it wouldn't have ruined Joel and Ellie.

[@ThatBlueSkull]

@@xel1673Agreed if they had too they should of done it entirely with a new cast

[@EmileTherese]

If they had made Abby and co want the supposed cure rather than solely revenge, the torture of Joel could have made sense. They have Mel, who was Abby's dad's best student apparently. Say she's been looking at his old research and thinks they can maybe do it. Like have them torture and ultimately kill Joel because they are trying to find Ellie to try the procedure again and he won't tell them anything or says she already died.

[@jonbaxter2254]

Staggering that the only media that has respected its previous heroic characters and treats them with the credit they earned - whether in films, games, books or TV - is Cobra Kai.

[@hideofreakingkojima5457]

Don't forget about Top Gun Maverick

[@Xeno_Solarus]

I mean, other series exists. It's a bit much to say thats the only one that exists.

[@jonbaxter2254]

@@Xeno_Solarus So name three?

[@jonbaxter2254]

@@hideofreakingkojima5457 Of course, cannot forget about how good Maverick was.

[@lordofthepizzapie9319]

*cough cough* GoW, The Last Wish, Godzilla: Minus One *cough*

[@HonkHonkler]

The ONLY golden nugget in part 2 is Ellie's birthday flashback. Just a cute moment with the two AND In a better written story, the ending of seeing the firefly sign and being called liars would be more impactful.

[@JoeSyxpack]

As someone who's never played either of the games (although I was familiar with the story of the first one) I was surprised at how offended I was by TLoU2. I guess the wounds from TLJ were still fresh enough that all poorly-crafted suBVerSiVe storytelling was going to get a severe reaction from me.

[@Hoganply]

That whole scene where Owen instantly absolves Abby of her vengeful sadism just to pork like the simp he is reminds me so much of Padme falling for Anakin after him admitting to killing children.

[@ravenID429]

Except with Padme she’d loved him for years before he did it

[@kylefrank638]

I personally like how they have their cake and eat it too, regarding Tommy. In TLOU2 they dare to kill off Joel, Jesse (and basically never speak of him again), a pregnant woman, a child, absolutely no holds barred... but with Tommy... they shoot him in the head; it's the same anti-ceremony shock value they got out of doing Joel.. but then they go "nope, Tommy's still alive despite the headshot! We wouldn't kill him so readily, ha ha, fooled you!" and you're left going, "... so where was this attitude when you *could* do it to Joel?" Why'd they get cold feet with Tommy, and no one else?

[@blankadams3120]

Did you mean 'Abby is Abbysmally Written'?

[@EmptyAltruism]

Ok, that’s pretty good. Have a like.

[@blankadams3120]

@@EmptyAltruism I'll take it. Thank you.

[@chris_player2995]

they wanted to do the Negan thing but failed

[@harrydubois6619]

For all the faults the later seasons of The Walking Dead had, they somehow managed to have an antagonist kill multiple beloved characters, give him a great redemption arc, and turn him into a fan favorite character

[@NoahHunterGamble]

@@harrydubois6619I agree with you completely. Hell I’d rather watch season 8 on repeat for a day than ever having to play this ridiculously stupid game again.

[@jaysimpson3920]

It's gonna be really interesting when season 2 for the TV shows drops. Will they have learned from their mistakes and fix the story or repeat them and blame us for not liking it? Either way we're gonna suffer the same turmoil next year that we did back in 2020.

[@DeetotheDubs]

43:28 "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me." was changed to "A 9 iron may break my skull but mean words can hurt my soul."

[@wwheezer]

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but first you gotta throw 'em" - Doug "The Nostalgia Critic" Walker

[@TheVector119]

Something worth noting that I never hear anyone talk about because it's such a background detail, Abby's dad only started being a doctor when he joined the fireflies. His actual credentials is that he has a bachelor's in science and biology. He was not a medical professional, he did not go to medical school, he is not a surgeon, and moreover he is not parasitologist or a vaccine researcher. Any learning he has done in any of that he has done on his own since outbreak. So it's not just that the fireflies are a pathetically incompetent faction incapable of producing, let alone mass implementing a "cure", but the guy doing it is not capable of actually pulling it off.

[@zigzag1630]

Abby would be a more sympathetic character if she was simply lost in the passion of anger, at least then she would have an excuse. Instead, she code-switches in a second from an illusion of normalcy to cold sadistic cruelty just like a literal psychopath. I don't need to be a doctor to see that psychopaths are almost impossible to make into sympathetic characters but I do need to not be a guy who forces out Amy Hennig because she was in the way of a guy's feminist empowerment game to see that.

[@EmptyAltruism]

I don’t know. Ppl hate men that hit women and that’s not nearly as bad as caving in a persons skull with a golf club. I don’t think it was ever possible to redeem Abby after what she did considering all the context to the circumstance. Ppl just hate her too much

[@Xeno_Solarus]

Wait, Amy Henning was originally a part of the game? Is that the same Amy Henning from Legacy of Kain? I became a fan of hers after the brilliance that is Soul Reaver 1&2

[@lauralynz1907]

@@Xeno_Solarus No, she was a part of ND and was asked to leave during UC4's development and creation. Neil and Bruce took over that project after she left and gutted it and Neil rewrote a lot of it.

[@mattgeddes8513]

Im still confused on how anyone got past the two hour boring ass town intro to even get to the game

[@liquidocelot4885]

The worst sequel ever made

[@isaacgirouard5924]

Well. Megamind 2 exists now, sadly.

[@liquidocelot4885]

@@KarpeNoctem lol I didn't even realize that

[@viddykhaos2896]

@@isaacgirouard5924I never knew this existed, watched the trailers, now childhood ruined 😂

[@isaacgirouard5924]

@@viddykhaos2896 I know, I'm so sad

[@lukescrew1981]

Best sequel

[@1701EarlGrey]

28:11 - I suspect what happened to said dog in "The Hunt" and that's the reason why I will never watch it - same with John Wick. Part of this is the fact that I was a dog owner for past 28 years but partly is the problem with manipulative nature of this trope. Kill the dog is a cheap and manipulative as "save the cat" - if you want your audience to hate antagonist in your story you show him killing cute dog, it's simple as that.

[@captaindropkik]

Goddamn Wolf take a short break will ye (also fantastic work sir)

[@the_absurd_hero]

Around that 29:00 mark, Mewbslie recommends _The Hunt_ (2013) and you ABSOLUTELY need to watch it if you haven’t yet.

[@TheHalogen131]

It's the one with Mads?

[@the_absurd_hero]

​@@TheHalogen131 Yup!

[@Optimal4149]

She really is a bad character, she only killed Joel after he canonically caused literally every problem in history. HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THIS!

[@dean_l33]

It's not that he died but HOW he died that's the problem. If you don't understand this then shut up

[@nont18411]

Nah, it was the Skrull who did it because like Talos said, Joel is useless without him.

[@MagpieDynamics]

​@dean_l33 Dude said Joel canonically caused literally every problem in history. It's an obvious joke, calm down.

[@bluemutt9964]

​@@dean_l33You didn't even understand OP's comment so maybe listen to yourself lmao

[@Optimal4149]

​@@nont18411 he never would've killed that giraffe with a golf club without the help of the scrulls

[@EpicJasonX9000]

George Carlin completely disproved the whole "eye for an eye" belief. *An eye for an eye is not a call for revenge, it is an argument for fairness. In the time of the Bible, it was standard to take a life in exchange for an eye. But the Bible said, No, the punishment should fit the crime. Only and eye for an eye, nothing more. It is not vindictive, it is mitigatory.*

[@noobiesmurf]

Abbysmal Abbey.

[@thecornfieldiii2069]

Abbysmal

[@hunterwartabeager6380]

There was a collectible at the end of The Last of Us that was a note from the doctors saying they didn’t even know if dissecting Ellie would lead to anything they didn’t already know. It wasn’t even a guarantee that the Fireflies could have made a vaccine

[@TheAlterspark]

Yup, and now we have TLOU2 fanboys claiming that never existed. I played the first game on PS3 and very much remember it. That's ignoring the other glaring plot changes and retcons Naughty Dog thinks make the second game work.

[@RH_Collective]

Certified golf club moment

[@GhostOfSnuffles]

In canon Joel killed everyone that could identify him at the hospital, there's no way Abby has any idea who He or Elly are. The entire point of the hospital massacre is so He could make a clean get away.

[@tomgu2285]

Yes 100% agreed. How does she even know about Joe anyway??? Elly??? Yeah ok her father was the one operating. But how does she know about Joel???

[@SCP-Dr_Bright]

one of the games i hated the most. i loved the first game so much and then they make it seem like joel is a big part of the next game and then pull a bait and switch and kill him within like the first 15 minutes of the game in one of the worst ways, lying there helplessly on the floor. then they make you PLAY as the bitch who killed him.

[@TurntBucket]

They could have made her jacked for a girl but they had to make her cartoonishly jacked. She would have to be on roids to be that big for a female. Even most guys cannot get that big naturally. Her delts are insane.

[@austin9568AuraMasterDX]

"We let you both live, and you wasted it!"-Abby Armstrong, Senator of Golfamania Everyone: How did you NOT see this coming you MONG!?

[@nick_4972]

Tbf you have to have a pretty high IQ to understand The Last of Us Part 2

[@realistic_delinquent]

Everything worth understanding about it is meta commentary about the state of the industry, the battered psychology of those responsible for the script, and various other interpretable aspects apart from the content itself. So yes, I guess you do.

[@Wyzai]

1:00:18 It's pretty cheap, but in the proper order it doubles as establishing character, where being cheap is generally allowed. The easiest way to portray a character as a nice person is to have them stop to pet a cat or give money to a homeless person... or you have them do the reverse. They kick a puppy or a homeless man off their porch where they were taking shelter from rain. Audience instantly figures out this is a selfish and petty person. The problem is they already did the character establishing: this is a person who would take joy in the slaughter of a fellow human being. Now the game is in the position to build upon that character but instead of using building blocks it uses stickers.

[@HonkHonkler]

Think this is an old clip from an old stream, but yeah Dunkey's review of this game's story and writing is part of the problem of modern media. Media literacy and tastes of the normie or more normie-ish of society have DROPPED massively to where they really can't tell bad writing unless it's something as bad as The Room or Madame Web.

[@hideousruin]

Knowing what I do about bodybuilding, nutrition, strength training, etc.* I had no chance of getting invested in the game with Abby as a character. I'd be less distracted if they had an android or lump of sentient fungus companion. It's about as plausible as her physique in a post-apocalyptic world where even a consistent subsistence level existence is for the lucky and/or the strong. (At my most fit I used to do sets of 20 dead-hang underhand pull ups with 90lbs added weight. I used to do sets of 20 dips with 90lbs added too. I could have gone at least one more plate for less reps but the setup I had wouldn't let me secure more than 2 45s to my belt. My sets were always with complete control and perfect form. Bucking/kipping just tears your joints up eventually. I could only max press 410lbs at 200lbs body weight though. Anyway, should give an idea of how strong I was.)

[@WayStedYou]

A certified Joel in one.

[@Bongoslam]

At some point you just give up trying to understand and the only logical answer that remains is that the creators just wanted to piss off people.

[@Green_Shift]

Abby could’ve been the perfect antagonist if the writers weren’t so hellbent on telling the player, “Hey, she’s great. She saves a random kid and plays with dogs. Ignore the heinous and sadistic things she does. Love her. Now.” Now nobody likes her or the series associated with her. Well done, Neil.

[@JavRexgteneg2pIift]

49:23 "I think SouthPaw said this" Oh god....

[@EmptyAltruism]

Lol

[@NicTheGreek1979]

Southpaw ruined the DC arc for me...

[@ardendragoon]

The fireflies had murdered several subjects looking for a cure. that information was removed from the game. Joel did the right thing.

[@kaydenjones3183]

The fireflies are so much more interesting as that type of faction

[@memeweirdguyn.0019]

This game is a clear example of how you can mess up a message and a (to be totally honest) good story with *pacing* The death scene couldve worked if it was after you sympathize with Abby Her story couldve been the first third of the story, then let us play as Ellie (while NOT RANDOMLY SWITCH BACK AND FORTH THEIR VIEWS) Ellie loss and conclusion had the potential of being effective and understandable if it was *framed and paced* in the right way

[@-Azure.EXE-]

The core of this games story is horrid. Multiple story beats are nonsensical. Inconsistent characters. Abby is contradictory and vile. The theme is blunt and stupidly delivered with 0 nuance. Fixing pacing would just mean the shxt ends quicker.

[@lukescrew1981]

They didn't mess up shit

[@mordirit8727]

One example of an _interesting_ story done that reminds me a lot of what TLOU2 thought they were doing with Abby is Thorfinn from Vinland Saga. The first arc of the story, the main character is a viking working on the raiding group of the man who murdered his father, right in front of him. Thorfinn works for him because the man rewards his services with duels to try to avenge his father (which he wants, since he hates more than anything the fact that Askeladd killed his father without any honor or propriety). But during the story you see Askeladd almost become a new father figure to him, and you can _taste_ how much Thorfinn hates that he cares about him. [MAJOR SPOILERS after Read More, click at your own peril] In the end, after constantly increasing moments of Thorfinn being made to see the depth of character of Askeladd and mere hours after he loses yet another duel to him, the man goes and fucking dies to someone else. The chance to get revenge, a revenge he didn't even know anymore whether he wanted or not, gets stolen from him, all because Askeladd threw his life away. Worst of all, the dude even finds an extremely heroic and noble way to die, giving his life to ensure someone sympathetic to his homeland ascends to the throne, all to ensure his country won't be invaded. Thorfinn's father died to save him and a handfull of others, and now Thorfinn has to see Askeladd, the one he hated so much because of that event, die to save a much higher number of people. And it fucking _breaks_ him. Almost the entirety of the second arc of the story is just dealing with the depression and feeling of lost purpose he gets after seeing that. It's an _amazing_ story, and the best thing is, the manga absolutely makes you like Askeladd too. He's a fucking bastard, but he's so damned likeable and shokcingly noble at moments. The concept of two characters cohexisting, both understandable and likeable to the audience, but you know all through the story one of them wants desperately to kil the other is such a fertile ground for drama that keeps you on the edge of the seat... And these fuckers managed to do _NOTHING_ with it. How!?

[@GregariousOp]

Hey EFAP what is up! I’ve been watching and keeping track of your channel and all your videos and associating channels for a few years now, and your content is super entertaining to me! I love listening to your banter and analysis of topics and subjects in these videos. Keep up the good work. Also, I’m not sure if you know, but an analysis KZbinr by the name of MisAnthro Pony/Zaid Magenta had his channel striked a while ago and no longer makes content, because of some heinous things he’s done that I don’t have full knowledge of. Luckily, there’s another KZbin channel that archives his content, and I’m sure you can get together at some point and react to his content. His video on TLOU2 is equally hilarious as it is informative.

[@crazyinsane500]

So in Grounded 1, the documentary about the making of The Last of Us, Neil Druckmann strokes himself off at his idea of his original concept for Joel: A stereotypical action hero who's an authority figure (Cop) with a kid sidekick that's just there to make him look good who fights cultists, paramilitary groups, and slavers. In TLOU2, there's Abby, who's a stereotypical action hero who's an authority figure (soldier) with a kid sidekick who fights cultists, paramilitary groups, and slavers.

[@mummifiedgamer]

It makes me sad that literally every one of us could've written a better, much more satisfying story than Neil Druckman within the same premise. I wanted to like TLOU2, and some parts of it I did. I'm not angry just disappointed. Call me naive but I still want a TLOU3 in hopes that it can be better. But I'm afraid Neil's ego won't let anyone have input on the story and will just double down on everything he missed the mark on in TLOU2.

[@mummifiedgamer]

What makes me especially sad is that the whole drama completely overshadowed the game's actual achievements. It was the best damn console game I Ever played, and coming from me that's high praise as I fucking hate console games. The animation quality in the game was and still is above and beyond anything else I've played. And the gameplay is extremely satisfying. I'd rather just make up my own head canon and ignore Neil's brilliant writing and enjoy the game. I mean I still don't consider Mass Effect 3's ending as canon and replaced it with the indoctrination theory instead.

[@lukescrew1981]

No you couldn't

[@mummifiedgamer]

@@lukescrew1981Do we have a lost fan of Druckman here, or the man himself even? You are far from home indeed.

[@lukescrew1981]

@@mummifiedgamer Neither

[@mummifiedgamer]

@@lukescrew1981 Oh, a troll then, say no more because I'm not interested.

[@madboytech]

everytime i watch a video about the last of us 2 i remember pewdiepie saying "what...." genuinely sad and confused watching joels death. naughty dog had everything they needed to make an amazing sequel to a masterpiece. they really let everyone with more than 3 brain cells down. such a shame man

[@curethedarkness]

Oh man please do a highlight of the episode where they meme on Abby for how much she has to eat to keep those gains, that was so funny and I don't remember which episode that was on.

[@schnappicrocodil9249]

If you look at the thumbnail for this video long enough The trees in the background become a giant Gimli.

[@AlinaAniretake]

But she has a good diet, and eats different stuff!

[@kylefrank638]

48:10 That superchat made me laugh for approximately 0.5 seconds. Then I paused the video for half an hour and considered the possibility, mournfully.

[@HonkHonkler]

Also true on the 3 day flashback as Ellie is in Settle lol. It doesn't decontextualize anything Ellie did, maybe to the morons who loved the game it made Abby their BFF, but to people more aware of good writing... It does JACK-$HIT. Not even her younger flashbacks, it doesn't tell us anything deeper than she's still wanting to kill Joel. The 3 day flashback being even worse because she's on a quest that has NOTHING to do with Ellie's hunting of her and her friends. Like ONE run-in with Tommy after killing Manny, but she's completely at a loss for why Tommy is there. Even she even remembers that was Joel's brother. Only once she returns from the Scars' island does she learn of what Ellie has done to her friends. Abby's WHOLE section is just to be like: "Hey... Hey... Remember the first game? Huh? Remember Ellie and Joel? Kind of like that, huh? HUH!? RIGHT!? KIND OF LIKE JOELK AND ELLIE, RIGHT!? LIKE THE FIRST GAME, RIGHT!? LIKE ABBY! LIKE ABBY! LIKE ABBY! SHE HAS A CONFUSED GIRL WITH HER AND A TRANSPHOBIC MOM AND THEY'RE BOTH OUTCAST FROM THEIR SIDES! LIKE ABBY!"_

[@reptarcar]

This game is the equivalent of one of those bad horror movies where the characters are so horribly written u end up cheering and enjoying their deaths despite the story trying to get u to care about them.

[@JackOBlades0801]

4:20 - *Me...who used a flamethrower on the doctor before TLoU even came out* "Sure..."

[@WeirdGreenFruit]

i am absolutely positive we will never know dunkey's 100% true opinion on this game, because leaving this situation in a vaguely nebulous is-it-or-isn't-it a shitpost state is probably the smartest move to make when it comes to the public's behavior and responses in regards to tlou2 on both sides lol

[@6vitamin]

Idk if the original TLOU writer left..BUT: ND was not talented enough to pull off such a stunt. they thought that the story of Ellie losing a loved one and Joel coming along her revenge trip was "generic", but their real skill was in taking a simple story and making it REALLY well. the dialogue, the scenery, the world, the emotions, the characters, all of that would make another stellar TLOU, even if the plot is basic. TLOU's plot was also basic. - so in an attempt to make a "generic" story more artsy and interesting, they decided to do this stunt. a shocking scene for the sake of shock - then they found out they were not good enough to make a good story AROUND their edgelord distraction, and failed on ALL accounts Hell, may be they KNEW they didn't have the talent to pull of a "basic" plot, like the first game, and make it REALLY solid. And so they really needed a distraction, a flashy stunt to fill out a boring plot by a middling, woke Portlandian Tumblr fan fiction writer, and all they did was ruin an AMAZING job by the developers.