Abortion, Slavery, and Inspiration: What's Actually in the Bible? - Dan McClellan

[@FaykieRS]

No way. I was just watching Dan's latest video and thought "I wonder if he's been on Within Reason yet". I type it into the search bar and see this uploaded 1 minute ago. God is good! (I'm an atheist)

[@Maybeanglican]

You may be surprised to know Dan js a practicing Mormon. Doesn’t negate his points at all but I’m amazed someone with his understanding doesn’t see the flaws of Mormonism

[@sravasaksitam]

alhamduscience brother

[@Tacotuesdayeveryday]

​@Maybeanglican as an exmormon and atheist myself, I think Dan is a closeted atheist. He's very aware of the mormon church lies and abuse. He's too smart to be a true believing mormon.

[@IceValley388]

@@Maybeanglicanwhen people are taught to believe something as children especially a religion/faith most of the people they will know closely growing up also follow its multiple levels of magnitudes harder for them to stop believing.

[@sravasaksitam]

@ i completely believe he's just pretending to be mormon.

[@tuffel4215]

You did really well on jubilee!!

[@Kokoro_Kawaii]

Sadly there was no one good at debating on the other side

[@BroWithTheFro]

@@Kokoro_Kawaii Who would you suggest?

[@FranklinMid]

@@Kokoro_Kawaiithere are no good arguments for historical zombies so that’s no surprise

[@Kokoro_Kawaii]

​@@BroWithTheFro I think for the most part Alex has already debated most people I would say would be a good fit for a debate on his channel, but I don't know a lot about religion

[@grapplinggorilla7968]

You can't debate with a bad idea. I can debate Neil Tyson and beat him if he argues flat earth or religion! 😂

[@Padrean23]

This is the crossover we've been waiting for!!

[@AaronMcDaid]

Indeed! To complete the Trinity, we just need to get Bart Ehrmann in

[@LiftingStress]

Btw Dan is a believing Mormon or LDS

[@michaeltheiii]

@@LiftingStressso?

[@michaeltheiii]

@@LiftingStressso?

[@nasonguy]

@@LiftingStressYes, and?

[@cittoj_xyz]

ive been WAITING for literally both a Jubilee video of you debating Christians, and also a podcast with Dan. As an atheist i say that my prayers have been answered in back to back days, this is absurd.

[@mikelleonardi]

Bro praying claiming to be atheist 😂

[@weedlol]

​@@mikelleonardiIt's a figure of speech. But I guess fundamentalists do have issues with literalism.

[@MBicknell]

​@@mikelleonardi thats.... clearly the joke you mongol 🙄

[@cittoj_xyz]

@@mikelleonardi i knew there was gonna be a dumbass like you who thought i misspoke.

[@mikelleonardi]

@ nah just always funny and exciting when a supposed atheist that relies so much on God and faith in their every day life is that close to acknowledging his existence

[@RealTrentertainment]

It was Alex's podcast that introduced me to Dr. Josh Bowen. Josh introduced me to Dr. Francesca Stavrakopoulou and through her I discovered Data Over Dogma and Dr. Dan McClellan. And now we've finally come full circle. I'm so thankful for these people and their work.

[@masonhoughton7885]

Basically an hour and a half of "is [insert atrocity] condemned in the Bible?" "Technically no but most believers say yes"

[@tedarcher9120]

"Not yet"

[@bonniewings]

The “no man is a perfect master therefore we shouldn’t own people” is also the PERFECT argument when traditional men say they should be the head of their household. No man is a perfect husband therefore no one should hold the head/subservient role in the marriage. As long as humans are involved there will be abuse of power, be it in slavery or marriage

[@mikemkstR]

Power can be abused in any role where power resides but that doesn't mean "stay away from powerful positions".

[@Dendrite20]

@@mikemkstR A simple yet powerful response to such a terrible argument

[@gabrielduran291]

In the context of slavery theres no such thing as a "perfect master" 1. Every person is recognized as having free will and moral responsibility for their own actions, and respecting this is a fundamental moral principle. 2. A "perfect master" would be someone who exercises total control over another person in a morally perfect way. 3. However, moral perfection requires respecting free will, which contradicts the very concept of mastery over another person. 4. Thus, a "perfect master" is a contradiction in terms. Mastery inherently involves overriding free will, which a morally perfect being could not do.

[@bonniewings]

@ that’s such an awesome logical argument, I love it. I will keep that one in my back pocket.

[@Dendrite20]

@@gabrielduran291 Someone could easily just either (1) reject your axiom that moral perfection requires respecting free will or (2) draw the countless asymmetries between submission in the confines of a marriage and slavery. Another terrible argument that is born out of pure cope

[@kidcannibal7412]

24:37 in the 2001 hit single by Britney Spears, “I’m a slave 4 u” she also describes being a slave but not in a chattel sense but in a form of devotion. Sexually.

[@stevesmith4901]

I don't know if you were being funny but you made me laugh. Funny.

[@yeowlsing]

😂😂

[@bigweathertruther6373]

This is hilarious

[@yesuramesh6259]

Been waiting on this collab for too long!

[@PatrickWDunne]

Dan McClellan is such a great guest. Also great work at Jubilee, Alex!

[@Demida148]

Amazing debate on Jubilee, I was impressed by your ability to recall and answer questions on spot.

[@Tranqui___lita]

😂he looks like he's still in the process of recovering 🎉

[@Tranqui___lita]

😂he looks like he's still in the process of recovering 🎉

[@r0ky_M]

Except Alex wrongly agreed with an Xtian who said we have no account of Pompeii/Vesuvius eruption ..Famous Pliny actually wrote two letters describing the erruption.

[@Tsundown]

So excited for this crossover

[@chrish22h93]

Woo! Finally! I've been waiting for these two to show up in the same video.

[@peter-johndamonse5035]

One of the very best episodes. Can we get another "Mormon" episode soon to deconstruct what their actual believes are?

[@GravityFalloutPines]

"Mormons" would actually love that cuz right now all there are just a bunch of half-true anecdotes "Magic under" "Satan is Jesus' bro" "Mormons just want many wives" In reality these are all embarrassingly off I would love to have an LDS guest actually deconstruct ACTUAL Doctrine

[@joseignaciomontes5712]

I had it in the background so the ad transition of dan going in a tangent about slavery and univocality that ended in alex asking "Do you have trouble concentrating?" was hilarious

[@georgeemanuel3385]

We need more episodes with Dan!! Dan is a neverending fountain of knowledge, love this collaboration so much.

[@mikelleonardi]

@@georgeemanuel3385 no he’s not 🤣

[@horiwake]

So stoked to see you and Dan talking together. The team up that world needs.

[@davidkelm7609]

YES!!!!! SOOO excited for this conversation!

[@GravityFalloutPines]

It's kindve a waste as they just talk about abortion, etc. Nothing super meaningful :/

[@montagdp]

"There's no way you could read the Bible through and come away thinking that it doesn't condone the ownership of other human beings." You'd be surprised what people come away with after reading the Bible. (It's usually whatever they already thought.)

[@Bigbluedome]

Or whatever their pastors tell them to think.

[@PanthersKingdomPodcast]

If you had no background then yes, It's a smoking gun. But slavery was much different in the time of the Bible. The Bible says that slaves be good to the masters, but the masters must be good to them back. Most people at the time CHOSE to be slaves mostly because they were poor. Kinda like how the Irish were the first slaves in the U.S. Which they sold themselves to be slaves because of a Massive Potato famine at the time. (I'm a Christian just watching to see what kind of rebuttles in the talking points of Aithiests...ALL RESPECT THO! THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE THAT ARE CHRISTIANS, AND THERE ARE KIND AITHIESTS. Just giving another prespective. Thank you, for reading the whole thing, and feel free to respond!

[@montagdp]

@PanthersKingdomPodcast did you watch the video? Your points about slavery were all addressed in it.

[@PanthersKingdomPodcast]

@@montagdp No, not most of it.

[@Bronco541]

Id highly recommend that you do. And that you also read (or re-read) through the entire bible paitently and critically, it may not say what you think it says.

[@regrep2848]

I work in a loud factory and my headphones died at the 1 hour mark! 😢 Was thoroughly wnjoying this episode! Cant wait to finish it on the way home!

[@Kglëüghb]

I think Dan is great, but I got to be honest: inviting him on to talk about slavery and abortion in relation to the Bible is kind of a waste of a great guest. Personally, I would have preferred it if you discussed for example conceptualizations of deity, God's embodiment, image christology, trinitarianism, or the origins and evolution of Yahwism (as a follow up to your discussion with Justin Sledge). But of course, thats just my opinion.

[@Aanslacht]

Reason to come back! But i agree 100%

[@iamdanielmonroe]

I think these more popular apologetic topics may have been the focus of this convo simply because they’re major issues Dan is going to cover in his upcoming book. I’m sure Alex will have Dan back on in the future to cover deeper more niche scholarly biblical topics such as the ones you mentioned.

[@monstruohalo1350]

I totally agree. But, playing the devil's advocate, particularly in this times of strong "christian" nationalism, it is good to discuss this topics and get to know how scholarship helps us better understand the bible and the discussion about it.

[@EnglishMike]

From what Dan said in his recent AMA stream, this is not going to be his only collaboration with Alex.

[@Tranqui___lita]

Begin with curiousity or a question. Wonder why Alex O'Conner's momentum benefits from asking this specific scholar to unravel this subject. Maybe there's no master plan although I'd hope so. In my humble opinion, it'd be a battle of tooting eachothers noggin if he sought questions that other ppl like Rolan figure out in his own

[@carlomorelli1785]

So glad this conversation is happening 🙌 Dan has really pulled me away from arguing dogma and getting more into the texts themselves. Also, great job on Jubilee, Alex👍

[@CatsnCoasters]

Well, this made my rainy Monday a little brighter. 🤗

[@the37floor]

I’ve been waiting for this for SO long

[@jram_899]

Waiting for this for a long time!

[@clearancecustoms]

So glad we finally got this!

[@LPenos]

YEAHHHHHHHHHH BOI! Dr. Dan is amazing. Ty Alex

[@tulpas93]

So glad to see you two working together! Thank you both so much for making this happen! ❤❤

[@kpsnow2411]

This has NOTHING to do with the content of the video (which is fantastic), but Alex, it appears as though your camera shutter speed is quite high due to the amount of lighting on your face to maintain exposure. Consider using an ND filter to get closer to 2x your video framerate for a more "natural" level of motion blur. Look up "shutter angle" and "overcranking" for more information. See you in Newark!!

[@immatettey6830]

I'VE BEEN WAITING SO LONG FOR THIS

[@gemma3877]

"I know the Good Book's good because the Good Book says it's good / I know the Good Book knows it's good because a really good book would" Tim Minchin, The Good Book. ❤

[@lukey_boii]

literally been waiting for this collab

[@micahcooper2466]

Hi Alex I love your podcast. Love listening to them at work 😊

[@DanSmith01ave]

Finally! two of my favourite youtubers :) this is tonight's entertainment

[@bernabeasar5897]

Happy to see dan mcclellan on the show!

[@NotYourThoughtsPodcast]

Bro absolutely KILLED that outro my god

[@jaimecosta7075]

Love coming from work to these. Feels good feeding the intellect!

[@joshuabarnes1486]

I would love for Dan to be a recurring guest! You two are some of my favorite creators right now

[@Shake0615]

Bro you’ve been on a roll

[@sillymamacita3854]

Yay yay yay for these two together 🎉❤

[@hectorricardo8406]

The perfect crossover doesn't exist. The perfect crossover:

[@gogreenplant]

prayer answered? hmmm.

[@Benjiah14]

Really excited about this one!

[@BigDaddyMan83]

Glad to see Dan is feeling better! He's sounded like death for weeks with the flu.

[@deecee10000]

So good to see this discussion with Alex and Dr. McClellan! Thank you Alex! Thank you Dr McClellan!

[@italoaugusto8966]

The idea that there isn't major moral agreements about what's right or wrong in the Bible besides the condoning of slavery, even with situational deviations, is absurd. It's obvious that there were different voices throughout the collection of books, but most of the authors for sure agree about the supremacy of God's Will, what's right or wrong (for example, regarding the bigger sins: idolatry, adultery, murder etc.). Abortion wasn't an issue at that time because there wasn't massive scale ones as we have today, but in any mentions in similar contexts it was considered bad (as he himself granted). The concept of women killings their offspring out of selfishness, because of their careers and lack of responsability, is certainly to have been seen as a great evil, with pagan parallels. After all, we have the greatest means of avoiding getting pregnant in the history of mankind, be it through condoms or contraceptives. So the pro-life movement is in line with the spirit of the Scripture, regarding the importance it gives to offspring and life sanctified in marriage.

[@FriendlyEvangelist]

Amen!

[@Bigbluedome]

There are other reasons to get an abortion. Medically relevant ones. I am all for contraception. It’s a complex issue. Also people make mistakes, it’s better to abort the clump of cells than bring a child into a poor situation.

[@italoaugusto8966]

@ It's not a simple mistake. It's a human in development and the person in question had many other options than just killing it. By far, most of the abortion cases are not related to rape or abuse.

[@Bigbluedome]

@@italoaugusto8966 there is nothing to “kill” it’s a clump of cells in development. The Bible (which I don’t believe in) doesn’t even support that notion that something is being “killed”. You are just stopping that process. Up to a point I am against stopping that process, but before it? No harm.

[@italoaugusto8966]

@ The Old Testament understands something of value was killed and there was punishment for the one who caused it, the question is of value, as it was not considered fully a person. Do you think there's nothing to kill before the person is born? Is that your vision? I'd like you clarify it.

[@anonrando1]

Outstanding! Always a treat to listen to Dr Dan.

[@dustystarr2297]

IDK, Am I starting to believe in fate? No, but HELL YES to Alex and Dan my 2 absolute favorite educators teaming up!!!!!!

[@user-gk9lg5sp4y]

I've been a big fan of Alex since probably 2015ish and Huge fan of Dan since his channel started! Love these discussions!

[@asathelogiclaman637]

First comment😭. Love you Alex❤️ keep going bro. Big fan.

[@keith6706]

You can't "sit in the middle" when it comes to the issue of slavery and assume it was something better than the antebellum US South. Even looking at the Romans and Greeks, some were treated well. Others were worked to death or killed for amusement, so even in the same society, they covered the range. Assuming ancient Israel/Judea occupied the nicer end is presumptious and serves to provide cover for the institution.

[@crecian8407]

Ah yes. Suddenly I have 80 minutes free at work.

[@Samuel.Riddle]

I was waiting for this to happen and I'm so happy that it did.

[@kxnt_joel1238]

Damn Alex has got Dan McClellan on 😂😂, inspiring philosophy is gonna be fuming

[@Rudol_Zeppili]

YOOOO A DAN COLLAB!!!! So cool you two talked to each other! ❤

[@nolo5220]

You were so graceful on jubilee. Every other episode i watch is frustrating due to the lack of respect on both sides and the intellectual dishonesty. But you were respectful, calm, and always exercised the points i wanted to hear. I laude you everytime i see you speak publicly.

[@ccourt46]

The dynamic duo the world needs right now.

[@LiamBeanComedy]

The didache, one of the earliest Christian movements forbid abortion. That’s the closest to the source I’ve found

[@standard-user-name]

I mean the Imago Dei is in the first book of the Bible.

[@Josh-cd4pt]

⁠@@standard-user-namethat’s not relevant at all given that the theological/philosophical implications of being created “in the image of God” would have been very different to the authors of Genesis than how Christians understand Imago Dei today

[@MikePo-g9w]

Gods first ever comandment to us was "be fruitful and multiply". And God condemns child sacrifice several times. Modern day abortion is completely evil. Verses like I knitted you in your mothers womb, contrast that with abortion where they take tongs and rip the baby apart. Proverbs 6:16-19 ~ There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

[@VagueHandWaving]

​@MikePo-g9wIf that's the command, why are you not having sex with a woman right now to ensure you are fruitful?

[@ifoldaa0078]

​@MikePo-g9wYes and also the abortion victims who declare themselves that they're very grateful, and thankful that their mothers didn't go through with the abortion even under severe circumstances in which the mother bore the child by, as a result of rape etc as one example. It's self explanatory, abortion plainly is, wrong, immoral. And yes Alex, and Dan, it is Biblical to recant the practice of abortion. Self explanatory if one is familiar with the Biblical doctrine being "God is life" or "Be fruitful and multiply". That is an encouragement for life, God is the giver of it, not the one to imply or suggest abortion in any circumstance(s.

[@robertwilcher9499]

Dan makes the observation at 25.50 that while we have the OT legislation on record re slavery, we have no knowledge of what happened on the ground, unlike antebellum slavery in the US where we know both the laws and the extent to which they were adhered to (or ignored). But Exodus 21:20-21 gives an insight into what may have happened on the ground back then: if you beat a slave to the point where he/she dies after a day or two, there is no punishment. This suggests that beatings, if not common, were recognised as a possibility, even savage ones. And on the principal that one only regulates things that occur, it suggests that beating slaves, even to the point of near death, occurred and would go unpunished.

[@NoNTr1v1aL]

Absolutely amazing performance on Jubilee!

[@BrainyGreenOtter]

Just watched the Jubilee episode. I'm not usually good at sticking with stuff like that, but I didn't skip a second :)

[@gemma3877]

0:19 "undergird" ... some delicious vocabulary on the way.

[@riccard1n0]

You did incredibly well on Jubilee. What I love most about your debating ways, is that unlike many atheist or theist debaters, one can see (even by just the calm way of spech you posses) that you come out not with the simple intention of winning or proving the other wrong, but with the goal of making understand, while also understanding the other side points This video also surprised me, i did not expect Dan here on KZbin, another theologist I really follow and like Great job to the both of you

[@UltraComboEdits]

The only reason anyone debates someone is because they believe they are right and the other person is wrong! The problem with religion debates is that no one walks away with a change of opinion, because if they did they’d be an atheist or a Christian! So really it’s pointless!

[@macdougdoug]

Regarding Scripture being God-breathed : the most basic interpretation is that God gives life to scripture. Its the fact that the teaching is "alive" that enables it to set the flock straight.

[@LukeNAndo]

I think it's fair to assume that scripture being life-giving according to 2 Tim 3:16 means that the teaching is "alive" and therefore enabled to keep the flock straight, as you say. 2 Tim 3:16 explicitly mentions the scriptures usefulness in accordance with it being God-breathed. But this does not validate the doctrine of inspiration, at least not in the sense it's understood by evangelicals and apologists.

[@bigblissbud]

Alex is getting cozy with mormons (from Jacob in the Jubilee video and now here with a Mormon scholar Dan Maclelan) and it's interesting to say the least, they're very much a peculiar ppl.

[@baonemogomotsi7138]

What does their Mormon belief have to do with anything? Especially in regards to Dan.

[@jursamaj]

From the viewpoint of somebody who never believed any religion, mormons are no more peculiar than christians.

[@tjmaster7779]

@@baonemogomotsi7138 My first thought is that a key Mormon tenet is that the Bible is corrupted and in need of correction, and thus Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. That's a general summary, of course, and it doesn't invalidate McClellan's scholarship, but I will say that it took me completely off-guard. How can such an intelligent, skeptical guy believe in the story of Joseph Smith? We have a lot more recent historical data available on Smith and to me, his story is utterly ridiculous. Unfortunately, I now have to wonder, even if it's just a small corner of my mind, if McClellan's critical lens on the Bible is similarly motivated to the dogmatic lens taken on the Bible which he's made a career off attacking

[@imjustinfreeman]

Perfect collab

[@the_real_espada]

Alex, still waiting for your critiques on Bart Erhman claims.

[@TheDragonageorigins]

He's a follower of Erhmanism apparently. For someone who has read the bible, Alex makes some pretty crazy claims regarding the gospels.

[@standard-user-name]

@@TheDragonageorigins Alex gives Muslim levels of logic when it comes to his arguments on "Did Jesus claim to be God"? Guess it makes sense though, as he is just really helping pave the way for Islam. Muhammad is the most popular name in the UK now, and while he's busy playing skeptic British girls are falling prey to grooming gangs. Good work genius atheists !

[@MetaphorUB]

Example?

[@TheDragonageorigins]

@@MetaphorUB like "Jesus never claimed to be God in the synoptic gospels"

[@MetaphorUB]

@ Thank you. I disagree, but thank you.

[@joshreid1479]

Two of my favs crossing the streams!! 🎉🎉🎉

[@JoeArant]

So I think there is a missed point here with respect to the context of the Mosaic law. Much like Hammurabi, the law in this context is working to develop a legal guideline to control private vengeance. We see this same idea delineated in Exodus 21:30, where by first regard, manslaughter could legally be avenged via lex talionis, but the capital penalty could also be deferred by a fine; the fine was not an assessment of humanity already established, but a means (of grace) by which private vengeance could be controlled. It is no mistake then that Middle Assyrian law, in line 53, goes on to differentiate unintended abortion (manslaughter) with premeditated abortion, namely, “If a woman aborts her fetus by her own action and they then prove the charges against her and find her guilty: they shall impale her; they shall not bury her. If she dies as a result of aborting her fetus: they shall impale her: they shall not bury her.” This specific scenario was not covered in the Mosaic law, nor in Hammurabi, for perhaps the simple reason that, for any premeditated murder, the rule of law (lex talionis) was enough.

[@blugaledoh2669]

Is the law meant to punish women who abort their husband’s heir?

[@JoeArant]

if you are referring to the passage from the Middle Assyrian law code, context would seem to show the association is to lex talionis, and not patrilineal reasons. Here it is in context: “A50 If a man struck a married woman and caused her to miscarry, the striker’s wife will be treated in the same way: he will pay for the unborn child on the principle of a life for a life. But if (the first) woman died, the man is to be executed: he will pay for the unborn child on the principle of a life for a life. If (the first) woman’s husband has no son, and she has been struck causing a miscarriage, the striker will be executed, even if the child was a girl: he will still pay for the unborn child on the principle of a life for a life. A51 If a man struck a married woman who does not rear her children [44] and caused her to miscarry, he is to pay two talents of lead. A52 If a man struck a harlot and caused her to miscarry, he is to be struck with the same number and type of blows: in this way he will pay on the principle of a life for a life. A53 If a woman aborts her own unborn child, and she has been charged and convicted, she is to be impaled and not buried. If she died during the abortion, she is (still) to be impaled [45] and not buried.”

[@blugaledoh2669]

@ quite strange that the men only have to pay a fine

[@JoeArant]

@ you are going to find variance on this across ancient near east law codes, as in, how much and how it is applied. However, importantly, you will also see the ability of ANE law codes to differentiate between pre-meditated murder and manslaughter.

[@blugaledoh2669]

@ impaling and not burying the body seem to be too extreme to simply be a variance

[@YeshuaIsTruth33]

23:45 Ive often had the thought experiment, say you're a labourer in 1925 and a rich man says come and work for me as a farmer, bring your family dwell safely on my land and you can have a large already built house on the land, take all the meat veg and water you need, here are clothes, take holiday when you need BUT i wont pay you anything. Some would take the offer, some would rather do the same job for a small wage and from that pay mortgage/rent on a much smaller property, buy their own food, water and clothes. Being left barely nothing each pay after tax and any saving go on unforeseen house repairs. Id rather the be slave of a good master than the slave of government

[@avishevin3353]

A beneficent dictatorship is the best form of government, because dictators are efficient and controlling. They get things done. However, the chances that you get a beneficent dictator, and that any one you _do_ get _stays_ that way are both close enough to zero as to not count at all. This is why we try to avoid dictatorships. They are inherently corrupting, assuming you get a good man to begin with. Every form of slavery, from serfdom to indentured servitude to outright chattel slavery is the same. Better to avoid the practice altogether than to gamble that you'll end up with a good master.

[@danfrische3801]

He says Exodus 21:22-25 proves that the unborn child is not considered to be worth a full human life (because the wrongdoer is fined when killing the child, instead of being severely punished), yet he fails to see that this is an accidental situation wherein people are fighting and someone accidently caused another to miscarry. Because the situation was accidental, the punishment of a steep fine is given. Accidental killings have little to no punishment in the Bible, and you can even flee to sanctuary cities to avoid punishment due to them. Thus, this passage does nothing to imply that the Bible sees the unborn as of "less worth," and the speaker is gravely mistaken, as he's using it to support a good amount of his argument.

[@avishevin3353]

You disproved your own argument. If the accidental killing of the fetus is on par with the accidental killing of a post-birth human, then the killer should have to escape to a sanctuary city or face the retribution of the avenging relative. As this is not the given law, it is clear the Bible considers the fetus differently.

[@danfrische3801]

@avishevin3353 No, the Bible recognizes that people are going to be way more *pissed off* if someone they personally know dies, and so it pragmatically allows for someone to run away to a sanctuary city (in order to be safe) if an adult is accidently killed. Going to a sanctuary city is an escape from other people who want to hurt you, not a punishment by the law, and so I'll argue that accidentally killing an unborn child has more of a punishment than killing an adult, because the law requires a steep fine for that, but requires nothing from the killer of an adult. There is a punishment for the accidental killing of the unborn, but no punishment for the accidental killing of an adult; thus the Bible values the unborn above adult lives. Your argument is that because they don't have exactly the same punishment, we can conclude that the Bible doesn't value the unborn, but what I'm saying is that there's no guilt in either of the killings, and thus no moral punishment. Only pragmatic laws (fines, or recommended fleeing).

[@avishevin3353]

@@danfrische3801 The requirement to escape to a sanctuary city is to avoid death by revenge. There is no mention of this being necessary for the accidental killing of a fetus, which means there is no need to protect the assailant from revenge. Because the fetus was not viewed as having the same value as a post-birth human.

[@MikePo-g9w]

Agreed. His understanding is not clear and accurate, and has a mormon bias. The Bible doesnt have to say the exact words abortion is wrong. If you read The Bible it is evident there is no question. Modern day abortion rips apart a child in the womb, while God created the life in the womb and knew the person before conception. Proverbs 6:16-19 ~ There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers. Isnt a child in the womb innocent? God condemns child sacrifice several times in the bible, and you can read how those societies ended up, (not good). Modern day abortion is the same, they take away the life of a unborn for their own personal needs and comfort, completely excluding the fact that God created the life. And Gods first comandment ever was "be fruitful and multiply".

[@avishevin3353]

@MikePo-g9w What does he say that is actually incorrect? You're attacking him for being a Mormon, but you can't cite anything about his beliefs that change what the Bible actually says. It sounds like you are attacking Dan because you don't like what he said, not because he said anything wrong. If you read the bible it is quite evident that the bible has no opinion at all on abortion.

[@michaelbell3181]

Dan da Man! Good to see you on other channels.

[@jackweaver1846]

It finally happened! Let’s fucking go!

[@AbrarRather1]

Alex! It's been 4 years since you have done a book recommendation video. I am assuming you have read many new books in these years. So, can you please make another book recommendation video. Thank you.

[@totalredeem44]

Glad to have discovered your channel (Jubilee) Edit : Gone through 55:16 minutes 👍

[@elias3026]

Haha I've got a really funny memory with the NIV translation. I've done 4 years on Hebrew back in uni days in Aberdeen. At some point our professor got so pissed and tired with how wrong the NIV gets every passage we would translate that he just gave in and was asking us to pull out our phones and read him the NIV translation for difficult lines that we would study just as an example of how wrong a translation can be. I still find it so funny and even we were so surprised by how far the NIV is from the original text. I can't stress how much I've enjoyed this discussion. Please have him back more than one time. It's so rare to find people that combine expertise with such nuance in dealing with these inflammable issues. He really reminds me of my professor whom I really respected and loved.

[@m2sDayZ]

I love when they say "this is what the majority of "Christians" agreed on"... that literally means nothing. Jesus tells us over and over again people will not be lovers of truth. That includes those who would call themselves Christian. It's really simple and this video tries to make it complex. Does the word of God tell us when life begins? Sure it does, and it aligns with the biological truth that unique life begins at conception. Does God say thou shalt not kill? Yes. Does destroying a human life at any stage of development end a life? Yes. Is aborting an unborn baby, killing the baby? Yes. Is it sin? Clearly it is.

[@aaroncosta1574]

The Bible pretty clearly says that life begins with breath, but sure. It also pretty clearly advocates for all sorts of killing. Sorry it scripture isn’t a bag of trail mix. You you want the chocolate and peanuts, you’ve gotta eat a the dehydrated bananas chips too. You don’t get to pick verses that support your opinion and ignore all the rest.

[@TheRealCaptainGold]

The Bible says "thou shalt not murder" when translated correctly. The difference matters when you want to pretend to know the book. lol That said, Yahweh commands infanticide on more than one occasion. Clearly Yahweh is fluid on the whole abortion issue.

[@GC-yw1mn]

The ethics of something can change based on who is doing it. Is it moral for a grown man to go into the little girls room? No. Is it moral for a little girl to go into the little girls room? Yes.

[@johnmcgimpsey1825]

God also committed the greatest genocide in history (according to Genesis) including, if one believes a person begins at conception, murdering countless innocent blastocysts, zygotes, fetuses and babies. He also directed Joshua to genocide Canaanites, undoubtedly murdering more innocents when he directed every man, woman, and child to be killed. He also apparently created humans so that as much as half of all fertilized eggs fail to implant and are flushed into the sewer.

[@kyrieeleison1905]

@@TheRealCaptainGold Yahweh is not the father of creation. Yahweh is a maritime storm demon, one of the deities on the Jewish pantheon.

[@poof3642]

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes." - Proverbs 26:4-5 (ESV) These are my favorite verses in the Bible because it highlights exactly what was said in the intro, the Bible isn't exactly the law of the land, but requires accurate/informed interpretation and good judgement to understand what it is really trying to convey.

[@carlfratus7481]

"THats not what it meant when it said that!"

[@marthav.4654]

Thank you Alex and Dan 😊

[@michaelsmith9604]

the last hour, about the evangelical movement in US history, is something I didn't know about but will have to review. Great interview!

[@HecticLlama]

Two of my all-time favorites! This was great.

[@aqueous5099]

Dan is one of the BEST biblical scholars on the web at the moment. His approach is not just clinical but thoughtful. His analysis is so thorough and concise, I hope he goes viral viral. He deserves it.

[@lastday3439]

Why is he mormon ?

[@BrandensMusicPage]

@@lastday3439because he wants to be? He’s one of the most unbiased biblical scholars out there, and often says stuff he personally feels disappointing, like the verses about mauling children or murdering amalekites. He is aware of the flaws and doesn’t try to use apologetic fallacies for translations

[@jram_899]

@@BrandensMusicPage 💯

[@MikePo-g9w]

Proverbs 6:16-19 ~ There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

[@EnglishMike]

@@lastday3439 Why does it matter? If you believe that Mormon's can't be objective about the Bible, then what does that say about Christians when it comes to objectivity about the Bible?

[@SerJokerr]

I knew this was coming. Love to see it

[@mjleg1]

Never clicked so fast.. huge fan of data over dogma.

[@firstnamelastname5761]

Just 5 hours ago I was searching if Alex has done any interview or discussion on abortion. And he drops this within 2 hours.

[@MikePo-g9w]

Proverbs 6:16-19 ~ There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

[@firstnamelastname5761]

@MikePo-g9w nobody cares for your fantasies.

[@dudeguy9081]

​@MikePo-g9w Ezekiel 23:20 "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses"

[@concernedcitizen5988]

AYYYY LETS GO DAN

[@ursa.lombardi]

Been waiting for this one

[@zenithdoesvoices]

Hello there! Been a big fan of your channel for a bit now Alex, and I appreciate your informative and through provoking content! Keep up the amazing work!

[@markproud8559]

Outstanding discussion!

[@SocraticBeliever]

I found it really surprising that Dan would have this long conversation about the question of abortion in the Bible without also discussing what the Bible might say about God's proper design for human sexuality. I realize that Dan has a specific focus here, but in my view, it seems neglectful to ask what the Bible directly says about abortion from a human life standpoint without also considering what the Bible might positively indicate about God's proper design for marriage, intimacy, pregnancy, etc. If we find evidence that scripture has a firm view on the proper end of human sexuality, then we might also find evidence that scripture has a firm view on acts that are ordered against that end.

[@dominic9983]

Some suspect assumptions here about the reasons people have abortions. I don't think that if you could establish, as you seem to imply you can, that the bible sees the "proper end" of sexual intercourse as exclusively the production of children, then that would necessarily place a moral prohibition on abortion. Women seek out abortions for lots of reasons, many of them to allow themselves the space to make ready a proper loving environment for children further down the line. All you have to do is look at some figures about the many many mothers who get abortions while young and then go on to have regular families later in life.

[@SocraticBeliever]

@ Thanks for being willing to discuss. Perhaps I was unclear with my point. I was trying to say that I think it is a mistake to only look for prohibitions/explicit discussions when attempting to discern the Bible’s outlook on a given moral topic, like abortion. I think we need to consider the adjacent issues as well. No comment from me here on the reason people seek out abortions.

[@dominic9983]

@@SocraticBeliever Right, no I take your point. But it seemed to me that you were arguing that *could* we establish that the bible sees the “point” of sex as reproduction, then we could work back from that conclusion to an anti-abortion stance. I don’t think that follows. As I say, lots of women make the choice to have abortions in order to enable healthy family environments in the future.

[@meej33]

Well, one gospel has Jesus recommending that people become eunuchs, and Paul resolutely recommends complete chastity unless you cannot control your urges (only then should you get married). So, there's that.

[@SocraticBeliever]

@ Thanks for engaging. Maybe you could help me see how this weighs in for you. It sounds like you are referencing mentions of celibacy, which fit well with the Bible’s broader teachings on human sexuality, as I understand them.

[@Leslie-k6n]

Hey Alex, please discuss the Munchausen Trilemma

[@willnolan7040]

2 of my favorite KZbinrs. The meeting was inevitable

[@nickydaviesnsdpharms3084]

the test for the unfaithful wife and trial of bitter water, is interesting because, if they are leaving it up to God, then why bother making her drink the bitter water? why not just leave God to do what he's going to, instead of the way it's read.

[@DanSmith01ave]

Ask him about homosexuality and the Bible next time. He does a number of interesting responses on that: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fIXMomOEjJajhLc

[@samuelvavia8920]

Misread the title as "What does the Bible say about Dan McClellan" at first 🙃

[@malgrosskreuz01]

Ok so here’s the thing- just because the Bible doesn’t explicitly say “Don’t have an abortion”, it doesn’t mean that we can’t infer based on verses in Scripture (Genesis 1:27, Jeremiah 1:5, Psalm 139:14, etc) that the unborn baby in the womb is indeed important to God and therefore worthy of protection

[@DanielArrudaAntunes]

You can infer any modern morals provided you want. As you can defend slavery practise since the Bible doesn’t only not condemn but also regulates in Leviticus and deuteronomy

[@TheDragonageorigins]

@@DanielArrudaAntunes yes and in your case you can interpret the text whichever way you want depending on the context you're trying to twist to support false views on it.

[@nathanaelsmith3553]

Well.... the ten commandments say: don't kill - then shortly afterwards God reportedly orders the Israelites to commit genocide whilst parading the tablets with that very same commandment on around the city where the killing is taking place.

[@swozzlesticks3068]

​@@TheDragonageorigins One doesn't have to twist anything to make a stronger case for God being pro-slavery than God being anti-abortion.

[@odavis1364]

The first person to recognize Jesus was John the Baptist in the womb.

[@kzeuz]

Great to see these two men discussing this together. Alex has systematically brought together people I admire in a way or another, regardless of their position. Dawkins and Peterson, now Mr McClellan and Alex himself. Great!

[@Tranqui___lita]

🎉his catalog is definitely admirable

[@Natalie-ls8rb]

I don't personally respect Dawkins or Peterson nearly as much as I do McClellan and Alex.

[@Justas399]

The Bible does mention it in the Commandment “Thou shall not murder”.

[@justdavelewis]

Would the authors have considered abortion and murder to be the same thing? My suspicion is no given Jewish views on “the breath of life”

[@victor_2216]

Talk about scholar this guy.

[@victor_2216]

@@justdavelewis What is an abortion? The termination of life of the baby in the womb. Yes. It counts.

[@justdavelewis]

@@victor_2216 regardless of how we may feel about it now, we have to look at it in 2 ways 1) For abortion to be murder, the practice has to be deemed unlawful 2) The unborn child has to be deemed fully human I don’t know what the ancients would have made of these 2 claims. Exodus 21:22-23 says that if 2 men fight and one of them strike the woman so that she miscarries and if that occurs there is a fine, but if there’s more damage then it’s punishment - up to life for a life This seems to imply that the woman’s life is more valuable that the baby’s life and so I’m not sure abortion = murder would fly in this instance

[@TheDragonageorigins]

@@justdavelewis In what capacity could it not count??

[@felixgarnet]

It tells you how to do one with poisonous herbs.

[@Metroid-rg9pn]

Dan's incredibly smart and amazingly well-read, but he's so rude and dismissive to those who disagree with him. I'd really like to hear an extended dialogue with someone who is equally credentialed who disagrees with him, but he seems to have too much of a temper to do that.

[@EmmaBerger-ov9ni]

The Didache, first Christian manual. Circa 40-150 AD "You shall not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant."

[@tulpas93]

Cool! Still, not the bible. 😊

[@EmmaBerger-ov9ni]

@tulpas93 It helps interpreting the biblical texts cause it was the same period.

[@tulpas93]

@EmmaBerger-ov9ni Debatable. There were numerous texts during that period that were eventually deemed heretical and serve only to further muddy the waters. The vast number of errors (historical, scientific, moral, etc.) and contradictions in the books of bible are confusing enough without adding additional works! Perhaps Dan and Alex will do another vid called "It doesn't say that in the non-canonical writings of pre-Nicean council Christianity! 😊

[@EmmaBerger-ov9ni]

@tulpas93 Well I'm catholic anyway, so abortion is a sin, I believe that is the teaching of the Bible but it also most definitely is the teaching of the Church and has been from the beginning. 🕊️✝️

[@tulpas93]

@EmmaBerger-ov9ni Fine with me so long as you don't force it on others! I'm giving you the moral benefit of the doubt in assuming you're not supporting that organization financially! There's no excuse (biblical or otherwise) for supporting such a heinous and corrupt organization. Good health to you!