Ace Attorney Case Tier List (Updated for Apollo Justice and Dual Destinies!)

[@SaveDataTeam]

What do you think about our rankings? Let us know down below! support us on patreon if you can: patreon.com/savedatateam

[@JonCausithONS]

4-1 - I’m honestly with Zak: the twist of the culprit actually being your helper/co-counsel instead of the one witness at the stand was cool, it had some really cool tricks to the mystery, between questioning Phoenix’s motive (Did he cheat? Did he lose?) and how we can add another player at the scene. (the secret passage) it’s genuinely one of the two cases that I sincerely enjoyed in Apollo Justice!!! 4-2 - I admit, I’m a little harsh on it due to not enjoying the defendant (thanks for sharing the same sentiment, Wes), not knowing why the victim drove so fast to get back to the clinic except maybe he knew Alita was going to be there and why, and Alita not being that interesting of a culprit. (although I felt incredibly bad for her at the end, finding out that she was almost killed by the victim.) aside from that, the Kitaki parents (especially Big Wins), Guy Eldoon, jaded Ema Skye and Klavier Gavin were incredible, I actually did think it was kind of funny that the “pervert” was a misunderstood goober and only wanted to know Trucy’s magic trick (seriously, why does that exist??), and it only solidified the trust issues between Apollo and Phoenix. I like 4-1 more, but I’ve learned to appreciate 4-2 a little more than my initial experience with it. 4-3 - … yeah, no arguments. 100% agree with everybody. The only thing that I found cool was Apollo scaring Darian to slip up by having Machi to testify against him. That’s it. 4-4 - This was the case that actually introduced me to the game, and despite its flaws, I highly enjoyed it! I really enjoyed the MASON system, thought it was really cool that Phoenix defending Zak had the AA1 soundtrack instead of Apollo Justice’s, the origin of Phoenix adopting little Trucy when Zak abandoned her was sweet, Vera Misham was my favorite defendant in that entire game, and the jurist system was actually kind of interesting! I get the feeling that the canonical reason we don’t see it in the later games is that it would take years for Japanifornia to approve and adopt the system after the “test” trial, so maybe give it a decade after 4-4 and they begin using such a system. Really, my two gripes with the case are scanning the counterfeit painting (very annoying minigame segment) and Apollo really didn’t feel all too relevant in that case, despite this entire game being his story. He REALLY didn’t have a satisfying conclusion against his mentor as Phoenix did against Von Karma in 1-4 - Klavier stole Apollo’s thunder there instead of REALLY teaming up with Apollo to take Kristoph down. 5-1 - Make Athena the main lawyer with Phoenix as co-counsel and the case would be perfect. Some great twists to an otherwise obvious mystery, Tonate threatening to blow up the courtroom added tension, Juniper being incredibly sweet/the one character who appreciates and respects Apollo puts a smile on my face (also, having asthma attacks from major anxiety is something that I could relate to), and the fact that it would connect to the final case much like 3-1 did with all of Trials & Tribulations is PHENOMENAL. 5-2 - Lost potential for the reasons Zak mentioned, but I feel like Apollo really SHINED in Trial Day 2, when he stood up against Blackquill despite the latter’s threats and connected the dots on The Amazing Ninetail’s secret identity. Less handholding, and perhaps not reveal the killer at the very beginning, so that we have more reasonable doubt, and this case would be fantastic! 5-3 - I really do agree that there should have been a second staff member to add reasonable doubt before we indict Prof. Means. In spite of that, this case is actually very dear to me due to the friendship theming and the case begins on 24 October, the first day that my best friend and I met, so I’m a little biased because of that. Still, Athena taking on her first case, meeting the student characters, having Apollo as your co-counsel and the idea that one/some of the teachers are instilling corruption in their students by winning court cases by any (incredibly sorry) means necessary does make this genuinely enjoyable. Oh, and the victim posing as the Phoenix Wright statue as well as finding a different murder weapon from what we were led to believe were both pretty genius! 5-4 - Honestly, everything that had been said in the video mirrors my thoughts, although Apollo and Athena cheering for Starbuck and helping him out of his PTSD was genuinely a good scene. The idea of Fulbright being the victim instead of Clay and having his unidentified body be identified in the next case would actually be kind of interesting. That, and allow us to investigate the crime scene before the first trial, so that we see what Apollo saw. 5-5 - Great twist at the end, some genuinely good moments, and having all three attorney characters join together against The Phantom was pretty cool. Edgeworth was unnecessarily mean to Athena and Phoenix (still believe him being unduly stressed as chief prosecutor during the darkest time in the judicial system, and wanting to instill people’s faith in the courts again would be the reasoning, but yeah, he was a jerk.), Aura was incredibly unpleasant, and the case deserved a better setup case as everyone in the video mentioned. Again, I think what everyone said mirrored my thoughts.

[@SnazzyYGO]

The long con is for Zak to do a tierlist after every game to subtly sneak up 4-1 a few cases at a time without anyone noticing

[@gdplasman1616]

#JusticeFor4-1

[@SaveDataTeam]

THANK YOU!!

[@ngeorge9673]

4-1 was so robbed. A case where your expectation is that Kristoph would be your new Mia for Apollo's cases (with the game propping him up as such with compliments, how he is a friend of Phoenix that did not want him to get disbarred, etc), but it turns out that he's a murderer that was manipulating the case is such a good concept and subversion of the mentor figure character in these games. It was the perfect way to start off Apollo's journey and differentiate his state of affairs from Phoenix's immediately.

[@tage8936]

This is why 4-1 is the most overrated case in the series

[@TheGodIvy]

​@@tage8936 may i introduce case 2-4 instead?

[@tage8936]

@@TheGodIvy just because something is popular does not mean it's overrated. I personally love that one

[@TheGodIvy]

​@@tage8936 your just helping my point, cuz personally, 2-4 is extremely overrated, to the point where im not sure why other people even like it The main thing comes down to there being 0 mystery. You have 3 reoccuring characters, so theres only 2 suspects, with the game saying how innocent Matt is with the magatama cuz "he didnt kill anyone" Well you find out an assassin was called, and since you have only 2 suspects, with your clients statement being incredibly suspicious, theres no more to figure out. Any other mystery brought up is kinda pointless when you may as well just flip a coin to implicate someone How i get enjoyment out of this series is mostly due to the mystery. 2-4 has no mystery the moment you know there was an assassin involved. Also, saying somethings overrated because its popular right after you did the same exact thing is just implicating yourself

[@mihaimercenarul7467]

​The most overrated is 3-5. 2-4 imo is better without being over the top and fanservicy​@@TheGodIvy

[@ShandorDavies]

Juniper Woods' character is girl and her job is plants

[@SaveDataTeam]

Genuinely such a good quote 😂

[@CatComixzStudios]

I'm 100% with Zak that 4-1 is Outstanding, full-stop. Genuinely, I /wish/ more of the introduction cases managed to start with that level of tension. It manages to be a fantastic tutorial AND stage-setting for the rest of the game IMO. I've got some mixed feelings about Duel Destinies. I feel like Apollo Justice's highs are higher and its lows are lower, leaving DD feeling more middling. Like, I also completely agree that adding Athena bloated the cast, though hot take, I feel like all of the screen time spent on Phoenix could have been used to finally start carving out more of a personality for Apollo.Yes, yes, I love him and Edgeworth, they had so little skin in this game. I LOVE the things chat was saying about improving the story. Because of the split, Apollo's main standout moment to me here was him being a dick to Athena in the last case. Which sucks for me in particular, because I LOVED the dynamic between Apollo and Athena; they felt like actual colleagues working together rather than the cavalcade of dunking Phoenix used to do on Maya. On the other hand, I did enjoy sense of relief her and Blackquill get by the end of this game. Blackquill is EASILY one of my favorite prosecutors in the franchise, and it might not have worked as well here without significant reconning for Apollo, for example. Bobby was okay, but yeah not getting any real sense of WHY he did what he did and who he was working for makes him feel way flatter of an antagonist. Also structurally, with the hopping back and forth in-and-out of the cases? It honestly made it a little harder to keep track of when things happened relative to one another (at least AJ just had Past and Now). And while the Emotions system is kind of just repackaging Apollo's thing, I still appreciate the what it adds; it makes Fullbright slightly more interesting as an antagonist /for her/ because of his weird non-emotions. All in all so far, AJ is absolutely more of a black sheep, but it's overall still more /interesting/ of a game than DD. Going to be curious to see how well Spirit of Justice fares as the "finale" for Apollo's story down the road.

[@rusticdebris8021]

I think I left a comment like this on the Dual Destinies Finale, but my headcanon is that the Sniper that shot The Phantom was De Killer

[@zfilms4858]

And my head cannon was that is was the Sniper from TF2 that shot him: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eqiwnWWbdsxjhLssi=pKJk9QSfBvhDhETi&t=1372

[@tnarwhal]

nah de killer would never have missed

[@Pleanal]

I'm very glad Zak hates 4-3 as much as I do. People talk about 2-3 all the time but I think it's obviously miles above 4-3. I don't know how you make a case that is _too_ illogical for AA but they succeeded

[@dan_man3087]

As a 4-3 apologist(sort of) i totally understand how you feel about this case. On the other hand, it's much less illogical than you might think. Or, at least, it would if it had a proper execution... Basically, 4-3 is guilty of being *_unfocused_* and *_sloppy_* as HELL with its pacing, ideas and reveals. The ideas and success is there, but it seems like developers specifically tried to make as much mistakes as possible, making a mess from a potentially awesome case. And by looking into the best parts you can see what i mean. For example, Machi as a suspect is good. Why? Because he was even arrested unjustly: he was arrested not because of the evidence(which EVERY other accused had to some capacity at least), but because the other country wants it. And it was stated within the game! But was explained in, like, 3 sentences. Which is bad... Or the way how there was no direct evidence to defeat Daryan. It was a good way to show how flawed the AA law is, defending the obviously guilty guy because of the lack of evidence. It ties very well with the overall story of the game. I also like how this case is "Klavier-centric". By that time in the series we never had a case that's made specifically to show more of who the prosecutor is as a person _outside_ the court. The idea of a witness on OUR side of the case, that mostly isn't lying, is also a breath of fresh air. Especially with a twist of "miscommunication" in it. There are at least a few more things i could have mentioned, but this comment is already bigger than it should be. All i wanted to say is that unlike 2-3, there is actual potential in the 4-3. Just by making a lot of small fixes here and there(like leaning a bit more into the international tension, lessening the flashbacks, making the "Machi's not blind!" twist way earlier in the trial(like, right after Ema's testimony), making so the Machi is not unconscious when discovering the body but actively rummaging through burned guitar in search for cocoon, changing the location of Lamiroar's singing- things just from the top of my head) this could have been more than alright case, me thinks! I even working on re-writing this case...

[@mihaimercenarul7467]

​@@dan_man3087hmm good point, let me check the music recording for the 50th time and show the victim dead again.

[@Official_RetroMania]

Ranking videos are usually my favorite ones, because it divides us all and we can all scream at each other how wrong we are. 😂

[@chipe420]

The way humanity was meant to exist.

[@luissandoval9775]

Zak would be happy to know that on the Ace Attorney subreddit, 4-1 just won first place for the best first case contest.

[@niso7969]

No Zak you can't be a SoJ hater 😢 I agree that 6-1 can be a little rough, but 6-2, 3 and 5 are genuinely in the Outstanding tier, and SoJ is in general my second favorite game in the 1 to 6 games ! Also I'm quite in agreement with your opinion on Dual Destinies, with no case really being outstanding... I also really don't like how handholdy the game is, and I find 5-2 really boring (I cant get into yokais or catchers). Finally really happy with your placement of 4-2 ! People are really way to harsh with it for how funny of a case it is ! See you in Investigations !

[@mihaimercenarul7467]

Soj is mediocre af. Sorry. Also wtf 6-2 and 3 are not on the highest tier, your bias is showing.

[@orignalaidan4691]

Currently malding over 4-1s placement, also i don't think you mentioned how in 4-3 not only do they say he somehow carried the interpol agent up the stage but did so after shooting a gun that would dislocate his shoulder not once but twice

[@TheBeserkerLord]

5-5 is for me what 4-1 is for Zak. It not only would've made Outstanding for me, it likely would've been second only to 3-5. (Though I will also agree that 4-1 got super robbed. Switch it with 4-2 AT LEAST lol.) Should add that 5-DLC would've also been a solid candidate for Outstanding had they actually played it.

[@SaveDataTeam]

I will say, having not played the 5-DLC case since release, I do remember really liking it more than most cases in the entire game, so it would at least be high I think.

[@gavout1511]

Fun note I should add: Dual Destinies is one of only 3 ace attorney games that Save Data has played where none of the cases that they’ve played ranked in Mediocre or below. Those being Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, The Great Ace Attorney 2: Resolve, and finally, Ace Attorney: Dual Destinies. So I’ll count that as a win for the game.

[@RainingMetal]

I'd wager what brings down 4-1 is that its outstanding features end up hurting the rest of the game in terms of expectations. With who will become the overarching Big Bad of the game being arrested so soon, it brings the threat of the final case to an anticlimax, not to mention your interactions with him in the final case just boils down to a single perception action, while he put up a bit more resistance in 4-1. Originally 4-1 would be more straightforward and Olga Orly would have indeed been the murderer rather than Kristoph, before the story had Phoenix Wright placed in it, though Kristoph would have remained the main villain. I can't help but wonder if the story of Apollo Justice would have been better if Kristoph managed to trick Apollo successfully and 4-4 would involve undoing that mistake, much like what happened with McGilded. There's a case in Spirit of Justice that returns back to the Gramarye story and their magic tricks, but averts a lot of the pitfalls that 4-3 has, which includes the cooperation of the magicians. In that case, Trucy will actually damn the magicians' code of secrecy for good reason and tell you everything she knows. It also happens to feature video footage that isn't as long in the tooth as that music video. I'm sure you will find this to be cathartic.

[@bulbaa2241]

I think another big problem with Kristoph is that no one cares about his reveal in 4-1 (Apollo and klaviers connecting thing is both of them knowing kristoph yet he's pretty much never brought up by either of them even though he was in both of their lives for a while)

[@supernova9361]

wait Prij is 6'1"!? holy shit, has such short king energy tho (no I will not elaborate)

[@kingdyste5289]

I place this Tier List in the Better than 4-1 Tier.

[@DinoFreak610]

My personal thoughts on Turnabout Succession: Turnabout Succession is interesting, because depending on my mood it’s either at the bottom of great or at the top of good. Let me explain. So, the stuff I like about this case is the characters and general outline of the plot. Vera is great and her arc is just really sad yet so sweet at the same time. Also, has anyone noticed that Apollo Justice was a really big fan of having teenage defendants? Wocky and Vera are both 19, and Machi is 14. That’s… kinda interesting, kind of… oh, who am i kidding, i’m the only one who cares. Anyway, the other standout is Valant. His story is one of the most interesting and sad ones out of every Ace Attorney side-character and I so wish we could have seen more of him in Spirit of Justice. The Gavins are also great in this case, Kristoph killing over something so petty as losing a poker game feels kinda like Von Karma, but it feels very much different from him just for the fact that you see his relative react to his deeds on screen, and taking in the horrors that someone you’ve known for your whole life has committed. Speaking of which, Kristoph’s remarks at Klavier easily make you want to take Kristoph down. Klavier himself doesn’t really have that much of an arc compared to Edgeworth, Godot, or Blackquill, but i still do really love him and so mad that they didn’t bring him back except for a pretty minor role in Turnabout Academy. Phoenix is also (mostly) awesome in this case. Him just building up an army of evidence against Kristoph while being disbarred in just 7 years and then sending it crashing down on him in the end (through Apollo, but we'll get to that) is amazing. Zak is also a really compelling character, since you’re not really sure if you should dislike him or not. He does have a heart and does good things like clearing Valant of murder, but at the same time, he also leaves Trucy to be raised by his own former attorney for seven years, and then just plans to go back into hiding after talking with Phoenix. He’s such an interesting character and I wish we could see more of him before he, you know, died. Now that the good things are out of the way, let’s talk about the Mason System. So, the obvious hole in the story of Turnabout Succession is: how the fuck is Phoenix able to run the jury when he’s disbarred? Did he bribe the courts or something? There’s really not much else to say, this is just a massive plot hole that completely takes you out of the experience. Then there’s the Mason System itself, because I know about the theory that it does actually make sense because not all these events happen, some are just Phoenix’s realizations and all, but that just leaves me confused as to what is and isn’t real. How much is Phoenix writing dialogue for actual people he knows and how much is actually real? There’s also the fact that one of his jurors is the defense team’s mother. Couldn’t that have resulted in a rigged jury? Brushel I honestly don’t mind very much, but his Perceive with the sweat is probably the worst in the series, though Lamiroir’s gulp and Junie’s “cough” in Academy do give it a run for its money. Then there’s the fact that I refuse to believe that Zak could have shot the doll, then later Magnifi shot himself and not a single person like a nurse or something in the entire hospital heard at least one of the shots. Then there’s the really bad one for me: That Apollo once again doesn’t have any reaction at all to his former mentor being a serial murderer. He just stands there, just being a witness to Kristoph losing to Phoenix. Yes, Apollo is the one that says Phoenix made the jurist system, but that final blow isn’t really from Apollo at all. Why can’t you have Kristoph insult both Klavier AND Apollo? Why does Apollo have to be essentially a bystander in the final case of his own game!? I hate how Apollo was handled in this case so, SO much! Overall, Succession is my least favorite final case in the mainline games. It isn’t devoid of good stuff, and again, the stuff that is great is superb, but there’s a whole lot of stuff weighing it down. Again, depending on what I want to focus on, it’s either bottom great or top of good, and now I'm leaning to the side of great, but that opinion fluctuates constantly.

[@Gamemaster6400]

#justicefor4-1 Wes is so incredibly wrong, I think that 4-1 is the best intro case in the series and could honestly be in low tier outstanding, the twist that our mentor is the bad guy is fuckin awesome

[@SolMasterzzz]

Absolutely. 4-1 was robbed so hard. I'm not a super big fan of the AJ game, but 4-1 stands out as absolutely amazing.

[@ShanRenxin]

I know there's always stuff going on behind the curtain when putting any creative endeavor together, but I can only critique what I'm presented, and some of the choices made during this game just baffled me. Regarding Athena being introduced, I partially agree with y'all. I love her character and backstory, and I'll argue that a female main character was due, but if I had my druthers, she would either a) not be introduced yet, giving my boy Apollo his full trilogy, or b) she becomes Apollo's assistant, but with a prototype version of widget so Apollo's perceive ability still has use. I also agree that trying to have three leads was too much, and one of them would have to be sidelined. Want to shuffle Apollo off to better focus on the new kid? That's fine. Let him go out to spend time reconnecting with his long-lost mother and his sister! And for Phoenix, just have him still be wrapped up in red tape getting his license reinstated; that way he's not a playable character but can still be indirectly involved and giving advice to the younger, less experienced attorneys. Seriously, they had the perfect in-universe reasons for both of them to not be around and they just didn't use it!

[@SaveDataTeam]

Yeah, honestly those are both good ideas to give her more of a time to shine in this game. Sad they all crowd the room a bit too much

[@Chosen_Din]

(I apologize for the wall of text I had a lot I wanted to say lol). They are both fantastic points and I super agree with them, but I do have a counter-argument, mainly to do with Phoenix's role, since I do agree that Athena should've been introduced in a better way some other time (and I do also love her character). My main point of contention is with Phoenix. It's kinda easy to forget nowadays considering how much the franchise has grown in recent years, but we do have to remember the state of it at the time. AA was nowhere near as big as it is now (something that truly warms my heart as someone who got into it around 2011), so the relatively few vocal complaints about it at the release of Apollo Justice were mainly about not liking Apollo, wanting Phoenix back as the MC and *especially* not liking what they did to his character with his hobo arc. Because of that, and likely due to the low sales of the Investigation games, Capcom wanted to play it safe for the next planned entry, especially considering Shu Takumi's leave for the time being, so they listened to the (vocal) fans and decided to make Phoenix the MC again. It's honestly a miracle that Apollo was brought back at all, as a still main character nonetheless, especially with the hate against him back then. TL;DR: Making Phoenix the main character made the most sense at the time for Capcom and got us to where we are today.

[@Official_RetroMania]

I agree that case 3 in Dual Destinies was dragged out. I think the case itself is good, it has good court contradictions, is unique but I think what draggs that case down is the pacing and the villain with not a great murder motive what could be said for most of Dual Destinies. I think you would however enjoy the DLC case in Dual Destinies is well written, much shorter and the villain has a great and understandable motive.

[@gavout1511]

What Ace Attorney Dual Destinies means to me. (1/2) So, let’s start with case 1. The start with how the game begins. Having a courtroom being blown up is INCREDIBLY interesting as a starter case, and by far the best opening to any mainline Ace Attorney Game (if you exclude playing as Mia as part of the opening of T&T). The introduction to Athena made me IMMEDIATELY connect with her character. Athena is not only exceedingly caring for her friends, but is also self conscious of herself. By placing the breadcrumbs of her growth in this case, we’ll be able to appreciate how well she grows throughout the entire game. While I was not a fan of the game switching back to Lawyer Phoenix in 5-1, his characterization in 5-2, 5-DLC, and 5-3 were enough of a bridge gap that I could justify the change out of Hobo Phoenix. I also wish that we could play as Athena Cykes, but that’s where the criticisms of case 1 come to an abrupt end. The idea of the mood matrix is pure genius and insanely fun to utilize, and unlike Turnabout Trump we actually get to utilize the gameplay mechanic instead of the game saying “here’s a sneak peak, now wait till the NEXT case to use it!”. The defendant (Juniper Woods) is incredibly likable (Say what you want about her personality being bland, I’d take a bland but lovable personality over the prick whose name is Wocky). Not to mention the hints and breadcrumbs of Athena’s story that we get in 5-1. As a first case, it’s good. Now, onto case 2. I really love the atmosphere of this place, and, unlike Turnabout Corner with Wesley Stickler, Wocky-The-Prick, and water-downed Dahlia Hawthorne, I thoroughly enjoyed every single character in this case. Even L’Bell, who I thought would get on my nerves (as most characters of his archetype does) surprisingly didn’t. The mystery is also exceedingly complex (I’ll never forget learning that our deduction that the culprit used the vent to escape was actually WRONG), the introduction to Simon Blackquill and Bobby Fulbright was amazing, being able to investigate in a 3d environment was awesome, but what I should note here is that Phoenix finally actively mentors Apollo instead of just giving evidence. His advice that we shouldn’t give up, no matter how difficult the situation is, is exactly what Apollo needed to hear during his trial. Not to mention that Apollo is actually kind towards Trucy now, and he bounces off of Athena quite well during the trial. Not to mention the Tenma’s were both exceedingly entertaining characters, with the usage of the sticky spell slip always making me laugh.

[@gavout1511]

(2/2) Then I played the DLC case, and oh BOY, did this case surprise me. I’ll keep spoilers at a minimum because Save Data hasn’t played it, but the actual scene of the crime is really awesome, the culprit is surprisingly sympathetic, the case is actively hilarious at multiple points, and I’d say as far as DLC cases go this one would genuinely be worth paying extra for. Then, Turnabout Academy. I know that people consider the power of friendship was lame, but I can’t see this point. Yes, it’s obvious that Means is the culprit, but it’s also obvious that Gant is the culprit of 1-5, and I don't see others say “that means the case is weaker”. By focusing on how the body was transported and where it originated, the case doesn’t have to worry about Means being obvious as a culprit. After all, 90% of the time in Ace Attorney, it’s trying to figure out “how”, not “who” (I WILL COME BACK TO THAT LATER). I absolutely adored every character from this case, with Robin being an exceptional witness for me, with the twist that she was a girl actually surprising me. Could it have been handled better? Yes, but it’s not offensive as it is right now. Taking on O’Conner, and learning that not only was his grades being paid for, but he’s also 20+ and also FORKLIFT CERTIFIED AS WELL?!?!? That caught me more off guard than Robin’s reveal. And now for the main event: Professor Means. He is by far one of the most intimidating villains in the franchise. But despite that, despite him literally causing Athena to have a genuine Episode, Athena struck back harder by making one of the most brilliant deductions in the series: proving that Professor Means made the body look like Mr.Wright’s Statue. Even though I found it strange that we never recreated Mr.Wright’s Statue, I would have NEVER guessed that the culprit used it to hide the victim’s body. And how if you look back on the case that he didn’t have the staff in the first section of the case? And now we reach the penultimate case. Starting the case to see that we were in the courtroom that has yet to blow up, and see Apollo with an eyepatch heavily confused me, because I had assumed he wore that eyepatch BECAUSE of the explosion. Not to mention that Simon Blackquill is arguably at his smartest here, creating a story worthy of Manfred Von Karma in how airtight it seems at first. Trying to break the case down slowly was a delectably fun process. Not to mention seeing Ted Tonate genuinely sent chills down my spine. The Space Agency is still my favorite investigative area in the franchise, on par with the Aquarium of 5-DLC, Hazakura Temple in 3-5, and 2 areas from the investigation collection that I will not spoil. I adore every character here. Yuri Cosmos is exceptionally hilarious with how over the top he is, Ponco and Clonco were both adorable, Starbuck was surprisingly sympathetic as a defendant, and Aura… I already sent my essay on Aura, and I know that the fanbase genuinely don’t care for her at all, so I won’t talk about her in detail, but she’s in my top 15 favorite Ace Attorney Characters. Anyways, cross examining Yuri Cosmos was amazing, and the twist that the space center actually swapped places was an original trilogy level twist. And then the results of the lighter came in. And thus we look forward to Tomorrow, in Turnabout for Tomorrow. When I say that this case is my 2nd favorite finale, right behind the genuine perfection of Resolve of Ryunosuke Naruhodo, I *MEAN* it. To start, the stakes have never been higher. Simon Blackquill is to be executed in a single day, meaning that we have to solve UR-1 NOW. If matters weren’t already complicated enough, Aura decides to hold Trucy hostage, and Apollo is on his own searching for his own truth. And Edgeworth’s reappearance. After playing AAi2, I cannot comprehend how ANYONE can consider any of his actions during this case out of character. His closest friend’s daughter is being held hostage, and the only way to release her is to prove that Athena Cykes murdered her own mother. Not only that, but he also has to face the Turnabout Terror: Phoenix Wright. I’d argue that his case here is the most airtight case Edgeworth has had (excluding games where we play as him). As much as Phoenix pushes back against Edgeworth’s claims, Phoenix can’t crack his case. It takes Simon Blackquill to demand that he is the guilty party of it all to actually make progress. And so, Phoenix, with the help of Athena Cykes, puts Simon through the Mood Matrix. And the truth that Simon speaks… This is the first time I genuinely felt scared in a game through dread. Not scared as in “Resident Evil Monster is trying to kill me”, but as in me wanting this game to be lying. So, I looked through Athena’s confession, and found the contradiction with the knife…… And Edgeworth shot that down. The moment I saw Phoenix’s despair sprite…. I stopped progressing through the dialogue. I was going to find out who killed Métis Cykes if it was the last thing I did. And I just stopped playing, and went full detective mode. Because I was scared out of my MIND that Athena could be the culprit. So I looked for any possible excuse. And then I recalled that the robot mentioned that when the hug happened, Métis's heart rate spiked up. But that contradicted the autopsy report. This meant that that couldn't be the moment of the murder. But given that Athena was yelling at someone, I figured she had to have stabbed something with the utility knife/ Then I looked at the crime scene photo and saw the cloth on the ground. I realized that somehow, Métis had her face covered. Then I recalled how Apollo was mistaken for Clay by the robot. This made me realize that Métis Cykes was already dead at that time that Blackquill witnessed the crime. Given that only 2 people were in that room, I concluded that Athena didn't kill her mother, but I didn't know who did. So I thought, and recalled that Yuri mentioned how the Spy was the culprit of both incidents. So whoever killed Clay was the culprit. So I looked back at my playthrough of 5-4, and recalled the escape experience. The culprit had to have fled through the boarding lounge to escape. But then, I recalled some leaves. Now I was confused by the leaves because they were uncrumpled. This meant that someone either deliberately brought them there, or it flew from the outside. I decided to assume it flew from the outside, which meant that while the space station was rotating, the door was open. So I thought "oh yeah! The culprit could've just jumped to the ladder brought down by Aura!" But I realized that would be impossible given the distance, unless they knew about the ladder beforehand. And then it clicked. Aura was ordered by the detective to lower the ladder. Pure Genius Mystery Writing. This revelation is the 2nd best twist the Ace Attorney Series has to offer. While this meant the case was going downhill from there, given I made 2-3 hours worth of deductions much earlier than intended, it didn’t mean the case became worse. No, finally breaking the Black Psyche Locks on Athena Cykes felt more satisfying than any other moment in the Ace Attorney Series, seeing Apollo doubt Athena because of his ability to perceive her tells is MAJOR characterization for him, and is the arc I was PRAYING he would have since the start of the game. Finally having Phoenix realize the truth, setting Simon free, confronting Bobby, learning of his death, and the Triple Objection Pose. What a satisfying ending to a game. And if that wasn’t enough… We got to see Athena finally break down and cry as she realized that she had finally achieved the mission she set her entire life on: Setting Simon Free, and she succeeded, even if she was one day away from losing everything. Out of all the Ace Attorney Games, the moment where Athena breaks down and cry is my 2nd favorite moment in the entire series, on par with a moment from my favorite case of all time. So… yeah. That’s why I absolutely adore Dual Destinies. I’m sorry to see Zak, Wes, and Prij didn’t enjoy this as much as I did, but that's alright, as no one can take this experience away from me.

[@baby-girlification]

i truly dislike Dual Destinies so so much, even though I LOVE the characters. I'm so excited for you guys to play SOJ. I think you will come around!!

[@chipe420]

Patreon rap is magnificent

[@chucknorris2913]

Prij is trippin with One Piece being power of friendship, One Piece is just luffy going "I bet you'll get tired of beating my ass before i get tired of getting my ass beat."

[@PikaPenny17]

Okay, but often he's so determined to keep going (and thus not tired of getting his ass beat) because of his friends. How many luffy fights can you think where he was not motivated by friendship in some way? Like, I'm not going to say all of his fights are good, but One Piece very much runs on power of friendship.

[@chucknorris2913]

@@PikaPenny17 Luffy basically never fights someone loses then says no wait my friends need me i have to win. He says my friends don't like you so I'm gonna throw hands. If you consider both of those the power of friendship then fine but I only consider the former. And the only time i remember the latter being used is Enies lobby. Fairy Tail does the latter a lot and I'd consider it way worse than one piece even with both options at least for Prij's example he probably doesn't care regardless.

[@keebo3385]

SOJ may not be the most amazing game, but there’s still a lot of really good moments. Case 6-2 on its own is probably one of my favorite filler cases in the Apollo Justice Trilogy. Unfortunately, the main prosecutor is definitely one of the weaker points of the game. Despite that, it was an alright experience. Hopefully you guys enjoy playing it 👍

[@TheBlackDemon1996]

51:35 The Phantom wasn’t working for someone during the case, he stopped doing that after he killed Metis. He was consumed by the fear he thought he left behind after Athena inadvertently caused him to leave DNA evidence of his existence, which could potentially/did cause all the people he pissed off to track him down.

[@Asmodeus-D4rk]

I doubt that an international spy would be allowed to just quit his job. Such line of work usually ends with your own government disposing of you.

[@TheBlackDemon1996]

I didn’t mean he quit, I meant everything he did in the game was him desperately trying to tie up loose ends. If anything, he was going rogue.

[@SaveDataTeam]

Is this confirmed? It feels weird that this guy isn't still doing international spy work, he just also has to make sure he doesn't get his cover blown by someone actually checking out the moon rock piece.

[@ngeorge9673]

This doesn't feel correct. There is nothing in the game that states he was on his own. Yes he was covering loose ends, but being as he was constantly watched, I'm pretty sure he still had a boss that was monitoring him.

[@TheBlackDemon1996]

@@SaveDataTeam I’m just going by what was said in the game. Cosmos said that the thing that spurred on Clay’s death was the Phantom finding out about the Hat-1 probe returning to earth, which we later learned contained the moon rock with the Phantom’s blood on it. The only thing that provoked a genuine emotion out of him because he was afraid what it might lead to. That, and we never officially learned that the Phantom was there for a mission besides trying to get the moon rock back/destroy it. I may be chasing down shadows here, but it seemed like everything he did after Metis’ death only seemed to benefit him in some way, not his employers. He just wanted to get his psyche profile from Simon and scare GYAXA away from inadvertently blowing his cover. I mean, his employers hired him to give them a moon rock so they could study it, and the dude shot into space.

[@AlexanderGarcia-cc6ek]

I agree that 4-1 should be in great …but by that metric every other case would be in outstanding😂

[@SaveDataTeam]

This is Wes' alt account, isn't it? 😅

[@AlexanderGarcia-cc6ek]

⁠@@SaveDataTeamcan you remind me what case 3-2 was again?😂

[@JadEDU]

I'd like to defend 4-3 a bit, personally. I understand your stance on it perfectly well, the plot contrivances, reliance on shock twists for all its story beats, and dear lord the Guitar's Serenade taking up 2 years of gameplay on it's own. I get that the negative parts of the case can overshadow the highlights, but I don't think the highlights deserve to be ignored for it. I also don't think Lamiroir's irrelevance in future games should factor into 4-3's quality considering 4-4 had the same issue which was disregarded. What I like about the case is very much it's ties to the overarching plot of the game itself, making the case essentially a vehicle to drive the plot and the actual murder mystery feels like an afterthought in that regard. I love the characters of this case, we're introduced to beloved Valant Gramarye and the Gramarye plotline as a whole, we get good characterization from Gavin (him telling Apollo outright that he prefers to keep relations civil with the defense, and that he has to turn on his own friend/coworker/bandmate in pursuit of the truth), we get Lamiroir who of course goes on to tie in to the aforementioned Gramarye plotline. I won't even lie, the bad writing of some of the dialogue in the case is a positive for me, being so bad that it's just funny at times, like the judge's completely random interjection about visiting a terminally ill person right at the start of a trial. I think overall, at the very least I'm disappointed Serenade of all cases got it's own tier below Mediocre yet Big Top didn't. I genuinely don't think you can get worse than Big Top. Edit: Also, if you prefer reading the subtext of the games, this is where we learn Gavin is only gay when he's sad. That at least deserves a Good in my book

[@pokemaniacqolem6495]

you're not playing the dlc at all, then? that's quite a shame, it's a really funny case. I'm a bit torn about watching the Miles series playthrough, I would've played it myself first if it was available on mobile, but given the collection isn't ported there, I'm stuck in a "do I wait for it to eventually be ported or not?". I'll be sure to be back for Spirit of Justice, whenever it comes

[@Treblebeatgames]

Its so interesting how yall had almost all of 4 in outstanding or higher, but serenade is just so bad that it drags the entire game down with it lol

[@SaveDataTeam]

It genuinely is such a rough case imo 😅Actually another fun stream idea would be to write changes to a case to improve cases we wish were better.

[@Chosen_Din]

​@@SaveDataTeam I would SO watch! (I watch everything you guys make but that really sounds like an amazing stream idea)

[@cherches3648]

Can’t wait for the guys to play SoJ and for Zak to rank 6-1 as the WORST tutorial below 2-1 even

[@spectrosrage]

Really wish y'all had done case 5-6, the DLC one. Legit the best in that game, imo. If any case was outstanding it was that one

[@smarshall4733]

i can almost understand why DD renders a lot of AJ's plot irrelevant, because it wasn't received that well and in response they decided to do a kind of soft series reboot with the 3DS era. i don't agree with it (i hate it actually) but i accept it. but frustratingly they end up doing something similar to DD, in SOJ because they're allergic to a thing called follow-up, but that's a comment for another day

[@Chosen_Din]

Yeah it's something that can be easy to forget nowadays, but at time when AA wasn't that big, a lot of people really didn't like Apollo Justice (both game and character) and didn't like Phoenix's arc. Combine that with the relatively low sales of the Investigation games and you got Capcom playing it safe with the new release.

[@ngeorge9673]

It's the same thing Ai the Somnium Files falls into of "we want the sequel to be as welcoming to newcomers as possible" which almost always makes the game worse. Makes sense with DD because Ace Attorney was in such a low place that they legitimately needed to appeal to new players, but no other sequel needs to do that. If someone is starting a game series with the sequel, then they have to accept that they will be spoiled. There is very little reason to neuter your game's plot to make it welcoming.

[@rainylupin]

17:32 TONATION RISE UP

[@cappella264]

Damn finally

[@Yourhatedquestion]

Nah, 5-1 is definitely better than 4-1, exactly for what Wes says. The game is really patting itself on the back with "see, now the mentor is actually bad", before we got any connection to him

[@mihaimercenarul7467]

I think you are missing a few brain cell. Get well soon

[@futureskeleton112]

My hot take is that 6 should have taken place before 5. You'd definitely have to adjust a few things to make the timeline work, but the main plot of each story would have been more satisfying if they had swapped places on the timeline. Can't give more details without spoiling the fuck out of 6, so you'll have to wait till you get to the finale of that game. Give you something to look forward to.

[@gavout1511]

If I had to rank the cases y’all ranked so far: Outstanding: G2-5 (The Resolve of Ryunosuke Naruhodo) > 5-5 (Turnabout for Tomorrow) > G2-3 (The Return of the Great Departed Soul) > G1-5 (The Adventure of the Unspeakable Story) > 1-5 (Rise from the Ashes) > 3-5 (Bridge to the Turnabout) > 2-4 (Farewell, My Turnabout) Great: G2-4 (Twisted Karma and His Last Bow) > 5-3 (Turnabout Academy) > 1-4 (Turnabout Goodbyes) > G2-1 (The Adventure of the Blossoming Attorney) > G1-3 (The Adventure of the Runaway Room) > 5-4 (The Cosmic Turnabout) > G1-1 (The Adventure of the Great Departure) > 2-2 (Reunion, And Turnabout) > 5-DLC (Turnabout Reclaimed) Good: 3-2 (The Stolen Turnabout) > 3-4 (Turnabout Beginnings) > 3-1 (Turnabout Memories) > 1-3 (Turnabout Samurai) > 5-1 (Turnabout Countdown) > 5-2 (The Monstrous Turnabout) Mediocre: G1-4 (The Adventure of the Clouded Kokoro) > 1-2 (Turnabout Sisters) > G1-2 (The Adventure of the Unbreakable Speckled Band) > 3-3 (Recipe for Turnabout) > 4-1 (Turnabout Trump) > 4-4 (Turnabout Succession) > 2-1 (The Lost Turnabout) > 1-1 (The First Turnabout) > 4-2 (Turnabout Corner) Turnabout Serenade: 4-3 (Turnabout Serenade) > 2-3 (Turnabout Big Top) Note that “mediocre” contains both “alright” and “mediocre” cases for me. The first truly mediocre case in mediocre tier is 2-1 for me.

[@Chosen_Din]

Amazing list! Very similar to mine, especially the Outstanding tier (always happy to see anybody put Rise from the Ashes so high). My only major difference is putting both Stolen and Trump in Great, but I totally get your reasoning for both. I also heavily agree that Succession is kinda lackluster, especially for a final case.

[@EmaSkyeLover42]

I am a big fan of all of your reactions and voice acting- so I have a question. Have you played any Ace Attorney fan cases and if so would you play some of them on the channel and do the voices?

[@SaveDataTeam]

Possibly when we’re finished with the games!

[@tag0006]

Unfortunately, I have nothing to be mad about on this list. It's pretty solid to me. I do also wish 4-1 was higher, but I'll take the win of getting it to Great! That being said, if I generally agree with this list, that's actually a very good thing for y'all for AA6! It has two cases that I would put in Outstanding. And also, I think it does Apollo justice (pun intended).

[@mylesfuqua9227]

Have they said why they aren't doing the DLC case?

[@RainingMetal]

None of them are comfortable to tackle handling the character Marlon Rimes being the reason. Though I won't say no to hiring another guest star to help them out...

[@mylesfuqua9227]

@RainingMetal Really? I would've thought that it was about glorifying animal abuse.

[@pgreta1752]

@@RainingMetal Did I miss something playing the case? What's wrong with Marlon Rimes? He's a rapper but is his dialogue that bad? I don't remember.

[@RainingMetal]

@@pgreta1752 They just aren't comfortable trying to voice him. Maybe they feel like they can't do it justice, but I think they've made it clear it's more because they don't want to invoke the "Blackvoice" kind of controversy.

[@pgreta1752]

​@@RainingMetal Oh, yeah I get it now :/

[@NintendoMasterNo1]

Why aren't you playing 5-DLC, a.k.a. the best case in Dual Destinies?

[@Official_RetroMania]

I agree with the best villain in Dual Destinies. I usually think people are underestimating the DLC cases, both Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice DLC cases have some of the best story writing, villains, logical twists and so on.

[@timofeydyudin4226]

​@@Official_RetroMania *loud buzzer noise* WRONG. 5-DLC is mediocre at best, almost exclusively rehashing ideas from previous games. Average praise for it is "it did Big Top but better" which even this is arguable. 6-DLC also seems to suffer from being a nostalgia bait from what I've heard. I'm not sure because I literally dropped Dual destinies (along with the rest of Ace attorney series) in the middle of the DLC case and never picked it up again until one day accumulator of my phone with a save file on it didn't die a painful death (probably from how boring this case was)

[@Official_RetroMania]

@@timofeydyudin4226 I don't think is rehashing any huge ideas from previous games. Sure you still "cross examine a animal" if that's what you mean but you do it in a completely different way because Parrots can talks some words, orcas cannot. I also think the motivation behind the crime is very unique and makes the villain very likable what you rarely see, if anything he is one of the rare cases where the villain is likable to a teeth and even BIG SPOILERS: and he even doesn't get arrested, because he did nothing wrong if anything he tried to help the victim the best he could. Is very tragic but it is what it is. When it comes to Spirit of Justice DLC yes, it has some nostalgic moments and? When was nostalgia bad? Nostalgia wouldn't sell if people hated ut. Also that case is not only nostalgia it has many great moments in itself and let's be honest, if you are playing as Phoenix Wright and in the same time line from the original Trilogy, why wouldn't you have guest moments like Maya and Edgy and so on... It makes complete sense.

[@timofeydyudin4226]

​@@Official_RetroManiayou are building a case for me. If 5-DLC doesn't arrest the guy, it just shows how much authors didn't care about writing a consistent story, since timeline-wise this case takes place before the whole "Dark age of the law" got resolved, yet authorities are acting way more reasonable than in any other game before. So yeah, even when it dares to take some creative liberties, they just end up shooting itself in the foot. Unlike what ace attorney at it's peak has to offer, those cases weren't created to tell an interesting, thought-provoking story. They don't do it. That's why there are no in-depth discussions about story and themes of DLC cases. They don't matter and might as well be forgotten, erased from ace attorney history if only for the fact that writers didn't care. This series has a potential for storytelling of much greater scale. The one that wouldn't need "it makes money so it must be good" as an excuse. I would never settle for nostalgia and wouldn't recommend anyone to do so. That's how one gets infinite loop of self-referencial content with almost no substance to it.

[@Official_RetroMania]

@@timofeydyudin4226 Yeah but it was "technically" a accident and he didn't intended it to happen at least not to him. Also he tried to even save him in the end, I think that gave him many brownie points. He didn't do it on purpose, it was an accident, it wasn't in self defense... If you think about it, it does make sense. The only reason why I guess they could arrest him is for lying in court but technically every witness in Ace Attorney would be long in prison if that was the case, I still assume they all get at least a money fine they need to pay. And for nostalgia again, I don't see it as a negative and it can enhance your experience it depends how far they go with it. Is the entire case 99% of the time fan service? Or is it 50/50 with still fresh unique characters, ideas, plot twists what the DLC case in Spirit of Justice is. Also DLC is extra added content that should speak to fans, is something extra to please fans and again I think there is a fine line between only fan service and fan service that also enhances a already great new case aka murder mystery.

[@Aceedius]

I'm crylaughing at the invention of a separate tier to put Turnabout Serenade on in order to not even let it contend with Big Top. I don't even disagree, it's just funny how far the series could still dip from the poster child for a bad ace attorney case. But really. Besides the obvious part (the removal of which apparently made the anime version tolerable, though I haven't seen those episodes myself) the worst of Big Top is cross-examining Moe, and Serenade is like 40% Moe-tier gameplay elements by volume on top of an accusation that shouldn't have made it to court even by the standards of this series. The cope I tried to hold on to for the longest time was the whole "the flimsiness is ignored because it's a case of international political convenience" thing, but honestly that doesn't work thanks in large part to Klavier. He's too smart to genuinely believe Machi could do it, and has too strong of a moral compass to completely ignore that for the sake of crushing his opponent, the way most main prosecutors would. He could still have been forced to do his job as a prosecutor and present the state's case to the extent of his abilities. But for that reading to work he'd have to show some sign that he's personally calling bullshit on the whole affair, and instead he acts like it's as plausible as any other case until you're one step short of nailing Damian to the wall. The best rewrite I can think of on the fly is that he was playing the long game, but had a different suspect than Damian in mind. That still lets him oppose Apollo to the very end and have to wrestle with the sense of betrayal when it's beyond question that his best friend was behind it. But alas, Turnabout Serenade remains in a tier of its' own.

[@supernova9361]

don't get it twisted, I think 4-1 is a great case looking at it in relation to the rest of the series, but like Wes said, in a vacuum, we don't really get much out of Kristoph before accusing him as a culprit and out of a vacuum it makes Zak Gramarye suck even more for no real benefit other than to work in the Perceive mechanic

[@gerryjunior1300]

44:55 I really don't think that would have helped the twist at all? The only other cop character we have is Candice Arm, who is dead so we can't exactly have a big confrontation with her, so if it's between a dead woman, a random new guy and the only correct one, I don't think having three options would have helped the twist at all. (I do say this having fully fallen for the twist and thinking 5-5 is one of the best cases in the series)

[@megadizzy9320]

I say this as someone who obsesses over kristoph gavin on a daily basis, has 5 t-shirts that say “i love kristoph gavin”, and consumes kristoph media every day, but i gotta agree with Wes that the initial reveal in 4-1 kinda did nothing for me. Not only do you not know this guy, but Apollo’s relationship with him also isn’t made clear (does he like him? Hate him? Scared of him?), which is a big problem considering he’s the protagonist character. And yes, while it is at the very least “cool” to have a mentor character be the killer, that kinda only runs skin deep as when you’re starting the game you’re either thinking “who is this guy. Why should i care about him”. I only really came around to him during 4-4 where we really delved into the depths of his insanity, his paranoia, and just how rotten of a bastard he actually was, because in 4-1, all you’ve got is that he’s a fancy guy who’s kinda evil and is your boss. All of this is to say that breaking series traditions does not an amazing twist make

[@SaveDataTeam]

the explanation of your Kristoph Credentials really got me 😂

[@cheseisreal]

youre so real for that i have a cardboard cut out of him and his merch shrine on a corner of my desk, but 4-1 gave me the impression that he was another manfred von karma dupe and i couldnt care less for that guy. not to mention how detached all the plotpoints were between the cases and the complete lack of kristoph mentions made me doubt the last case's potentials. but it altered my brain chemistry and i cant stop complaining about how his wasted potentials or just aj in general lol

[@mistydolphin2524]

How did i find this less than a minute after upload??? Lol

[@gavout1511]

I should list my grievances against 4-1. 1: The transition of Hobo Phoenix is exceedingly jarring, and I felt that Turnabout Succession failed to give a satisfactory answer for why he’s disbarred. I’m not saying Phoenix could never be disbarred, as you’ll eventually get to a game where someone is disbarred and I felt they did that scene with absolute perfection, but seeing him after 3-5 in that state leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. 2: The twist of it being Kristoph not only doesn’t do much for me, but it is exceedingly obvious to those who know about Phoenix’s character. My thought process was “wow, why isn’t Phoenix defending himself? Or at the very least, let Gavin defend him? It’s almost as if he wants Gavin to be in court but not defending h- oh he’s the culprit”. The twist is admittedly good, but it’s not good enough to bring this case to good for me. 3: Apollo is insufferable to play as. His personality traits in this case begins and ends with “I’M MR.LOUD AND YELLING IS WHAT I DO BEST!”. I’d appreciate if the game toned him down more, to the level where he is in 4-2. 4: the game doesn’t introduce us to the actual game mechanic of perceive. Remember in Turnabout Countdown, when you got to properly use the Mood Matrix, or Turnabout Visitor, where you get to utilize logic? In this case, you’re not even given a tutorial for Perceive, and instead the game does the perceive section for you. Why have the mechanic in the case if you’re not going to teach the player how to use it? 5: Phoenix has to go tit for tat against Kristoph. Yes, I understand that Apollo is a rookie. I am completely aware of the fact that Apollo is not mentally prepared to face against Kristoph. But damn it I want him to at least do 20% of the work. Phoenix has to do roughly 87% of the deductions, and has to walk us step by step through a very tedious and slow “move the items in the room” game. 6: Using forged evidence to win ruins any enjoyment of a victory I would’ve had. Regardless of how pathetic Kristoph’s breakdown is compared to Dahlia, another culprit who had an exceptional final breakdown but also a great first breakdown with her burning the butterflies, I still felt completely empty knowing I cheated to win. I quite literally cheated myself to win. 7: Winston and Kristoph are both surprisingly dumb in this case. Winston Payne, a man who was able to get enough information on Cindy Stone to know that she was seeing other men, was somehow stupid enough to not check the victim’s fingerprints which would be on the police database given the trial of 4-4. Kristoph never tries to say “I bumped into that man; and he raised his hat to me in apology, and I saw his bald head.”; nor does he try to ask the judge “before we admit this piece of evidence in, should we try to check if the blood here matches the victim’s blood?”. Also the judge is stupid enough to not realize that there’s literally no way Apollo could legitimately have that piece of evidence.

[@TheFryBoxGaming]

Sooo, what was the reason 5-DLC is being skipped?

[@eeveecurry]

You guys nailed so many of my thoughts about aa5, I know people hate hearing folks be overly negative about things they might like but I literally quit playing in the middle of 5-5 because I WANTED the game to be good and it left me feeling hurt thanks to the poor writing (don’t get me started on the character assassination of Edgey) and the… just don’t try to write about psychology if you’re not going to be nuanced, tactful, or even correct like MAN the original 5-3 writing was on the level of 3-3 but worse bc it made it a PLOT POINT AND HAD THE PROTAG OUT HER IN COURT TO ACCUSE HER I wish you had covered the DLC case it’s genuinely like. The best case in the whole game. It’s the only thing that would have kept me going had I read it back in the day (I played this completely blind in 2015 in college as a psych major going through some undiagnosed major psych issues of my own, for context on why I felt hurt by 5-4 and 5-5. Not to mention the potential demonization of cluster B personality disorders and the cartoony depiction of anxiety and panic attacks. It just, after Adrian it felt like a massive jump back.) Literally what restored my faith in the series was going and playing through aai2’s fan translation years later. It also made me realize at least one plot point had been completely reused in 5-3 but worse 🙃 Anyway uh I wouldn’t give any case in the main game higher than a ‘Good’ but the DLC case gets high ‘Great’ if not low ‘Outstanding’ just compared to the rest of the game it’s from. It’s just a Genuinely Good Case with Actual Well-applied Psychology. If you play it between 5-2 and 5-3 it’s kinda excellent and it doesn’t spoil the twist with Bobby.

[@eeveecurry]

ALSO YEAH 4-1 DESERVES BETTER IT’S GOOD

[@eeveecurry]

On a fun note, did you notice Athena’s DLC outfit in aa5 is a blue sailor uniform with a yellow kerchief? Now who else from the anime and VN sphere is a blue-eyed redhead with that kind of uniform… who is also often depicted with hollow eyes and covered in blood? :3c All we need to complete the image is the droning cry of the cicadas… and a billhook. SPEAKING OF WHICH GUESS WHICH VN NEZUMI IS STREAMING STARTING IN NOVEMBER :D …Ryukishi07’s handling of mental illness, even in a horror setting, was much more nuanced and empathetic than the handling of Athena’s trauma imo;; Athena deserved better than just… the shock-value schlock of an emotionless child mutilating her mother being thrown in her face like where did that come from sir this is a Wendy’s

[@ArteArt39]

Yea I got to DD immediately after AAI2 and I was FLOORED by Edgeworth in case 5 like did the same guy actually write these??

[@jeromebeck9781]

I probably played 5-5 in the wrong conditions, but the 'big reveal' kinda ruined the episode for me, and almost the game as well (though I got reconciled with it with the DLC which I really liked). I was really hoping that you would chain with Spirit of Justice, some of the episodes of this games are brilliant, I'll have to wait a bit more:)

[@SaveDataTeam]

We will get to it! But the call of investigations since they got the remasters is too great! 😅

[@SolMasterzzz]

You wait in line Jeromebeck, we've had to wait for Investigations for far too long already 😉

[@kawaiiempoleon8721]

The game 5 slander is fucking insane i am disappointed

[@vimbert]

4-1 was ROBBED

[@brothertobias]

4-3 is the worst Ace Attorney case ever created. A musical without music, character build-up that never matters again after this game and the absolute absurdity of having to defend a gradeschooler from firing a hand-breaking Magnum. I find that way worse than age gaps, because despite all it's flaws, the Circus case *at least* has Acro as the bad guy and Acro is *really* cool.

[@StrawberryShorty]

But how does 4-1 compare to Breath of the Wild?

[@Official_RetroMania]

I absolutely hate Apollo Justice so I will just black out and skip straight to your Dual Destinies rankings LOL.

[@pgreta1752]

May I ask why? Sure it has issues, but doesn't every Ace Attorney game have that? Some more than others, sure but no game is without flaw. I really adore Apollo Justice's characters and the darker tone

[@Official_RetroMania]

​@@pgreta1752 First of all the obvious, it disrespects the original trilogy and is characters. Phoenix Wright at the end of Trials and Tribulations showed Godot what a real defense attorney is and how he will carry on Mia's will and defend the weak, only then we find out what actually happened to his character what is a joke and disgrace to us who loved him so much. The. You have Ema Sky the genius who loves science and can't stop talking about only that she FAILED her entrance exam even though she told us and her older sister that she will become a great criminal scientist so that fake accusations like with her older sister never happen again. Then you have the court cases that make no sense specially case 3 what makes zero sense, people point out the circus 3rd case in Justice for all and yes that case is also very illogical and has many annoying characters but God help my sanity when I think about case 3 in Apollo Justice. So you said multiple times how that gun that killed the victim has such a strong recoil that even an adult well trained police or army officer would get a dislocated shoulder how could a kid use it then? How? Then the fact that they entertained the idea that a child can carry the dead body of the victim who is 5 times his size and weight and then he is "blind" we know he isn't but at that moment we didn't knew that and so on and so on... He should have never been the accused. The characters are also so unlikable in Apollo Justice so goofy over the top and unlikable, Trucy is the only likable one because she is Maya 2.0 with magic as a gimmick. I could write you an essay but let's stop here.

[@grammarnazivelux9495]

​@@Official_RetroManiabro we love Ace attorney for being stupid, no make sense and goofy.

[@psyllart]

I fear I also hate Apollo justice…everyone gets upset at me for it 😭

[@Official_RetroMania]

​@@grammarnazivelux9495 Sometimes yes but when the ENTIRE game is pretty much that with only 1 decent villain who also has the most stupid reason why he committed the crime because of how high and mighty he sees himself and the fact that a card game created the Apollo Justice mess, sorry that's just... Bad writing and is hard for me to say that because everything other than Apollo Justice is so good and Shu Takumi is a story and character writing genius, I blame this on Capcom because they forced him to include Phoenix in the game, Shu said that Trials and Tribulations is his final arc and how his story ends there, they should have made a totally new world, new year, new time line with only Apollo Justice, like they did with the Great Ace Attorney Chronology.

[@qdaddy9935]

Zak I think you are really wrong about Spirit of Justice, I think if you play it with Prij and Wes, you will enjoy it a lot more. I honestly think Spirit of Justice is one of the best in the Franchise.

[@tnarwhal]

I'm honestly so surprised about its reputation in the fandom. Nahyuta was mishandled sure, but the rest of the game is solid with some very high points and nothing especially Bad (case 1 is uninteresting, but the rest all have very good elements)

[@SaveDataTeam]

That's fair. I've really only played the 1st case, and didn't love it, so I bounced at the time. But I think the name puns and setting really left a poor taste in my mouth before I even got into it. That combined with the bad word of mouth I've heard about the game put me off from ever returning to it. I'm sure no matter what, we'll make it a fun time tho!

[@RainingMetal]

@@SaveDataTeam In Japan they're equally as contrived, so just don't question it when you're doing the Khurainese cases. And I agree that Nahyuta lacked the development that the other prosecutors got, not helped that his introductory game is the last in the timeline and thus he gets no more games to cameo in. Will you do the DLC case of Spirit of Justice, or will you skip it because it features a returning character you three hate so much? (This is in jest as you had more legitimate reasons to not do Dual Destinies' DLC case for the time being)

[@grammarnazivelux9495]

​@@SaveDataTeamsecond case is better then all dual destinies 😅

[@SaveDataTeam]

Not knowing anything about it, we’ll probably place the SOJ DLC

[@LG_Hakubi]

30:30-30:53 not gonna lie, thought this was going in the opposite direction 😅 (I think maybe... 2 cases I didn't have solved before the trial?) but I agree with the DD case, it felt distractingly anime subplot-by (hi yugioh) for me to even consider any of the kids. We needed another professor suspect. It did feel very dangan spending all that time in Hugh though Also I think being an AA fan in general is starting to become a detriment at this point. You're expecting a twist, you're looking for characters who would have a great breakdown animation, you're checking off who within the court system hasn't been blamed for a murder yet.