Why Are Electric Vehicle Fires So Hard To Put Out?

Can we solve electric vehicle fires before we fully understand what’s happening inside them?
#lithium #EV #fire
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Credits:
Executive Producer:
Matthew Radcliff
Producers:
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Writer/Host:
George Zaidan
Scientific Consultants:
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Leila Duman, Ph.D.
Donal Finegan, Ph.D.
Sunil Mair, Ph.D.
Executive in Charge for PBS: Maribel Lopez
Director of Programming for PBS: Gabrielle Ewing
Assistant Director of Programming for PBS: John Campbell
Reactions is a production of the American Chemical Society.
© 2023 American Chemical Society. All rights reserved.
Processes | Free Full-Text | A Review of Lithium-Ion Battery Thermal Runaway Modeling and Diagnosis Approaches
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Investigating the thermal runaway mechanisms of lithium-ion batteries based on thermal analysis database - ScienceDirect
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Abuse behavior of high-power, lithium-ion cells
Abuse behavior of high-power, lithium-ion cells
Identifying the Cause of Rupture of Li-Ion Batteries during Thermal Runaway - Finegan - 2018 - Advanced Science - Wiley Online Library
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In-operando high-speed tomography of lithium-ion batteries during thermal runaway | Nature Communications
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Thermal-runaway experiments on consumer Li-ion batteries with metal-oxide and olivin-type cathodes - RSC Advances (RSC Publishing) DOI:10.1039/C3RA45748F
pubs.rsc.org/en/content/artic...
Modelling and experiments to identify high-risk failure scenarios for testing the safety of lithium-ion cells - ScienceDirect - Finegan
www.sciencedirect.com/science...
A review of lithium ion battery failure mechanisms and fire prevention strategies - ScienceDirect
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Sodium comes to the battery world
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IAFC Response to EV Fires
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What Batteries Are Tesla Using In Its Electric Cars?
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2.60 S2020 Lecture 11: Batteries and Energy Storage
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Thermal Behavior of Lithium- and Sodium-Ion Batteries: A Review on Heat Generation, Battery Degradation, Thermal Runway - Perspective and Future Directions | Energy & Fuels
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Incidents in the chemical industry due to thermal-runaway chemical reactions
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Kinetics-3.pptx
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Tesla fire takes over two hours, 20,000 gallons of water to extinguish after Wakefield crash, police say - The Boston Globe
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E-Droschke fackelt nieder: Tiefe Trauer um Mannis Tesla | Regional | BILD.de
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All Reported Tesla Fires 🔥 | Tesla Fire
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[@Balin_James]

You guys really had fun editing this one, didn’t you? 😂 I’m all for it

[@playgroundchooser]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who came down here to mention the mid-word transitions that are all completely flawless! This was such a great episode in a channel that is full of top notch content.

[@ACSReactions]

That high speed x-ray footage of thermal runaway came from Dr. Donal Finegan with the National Renewable Energy Lab. Check out that clip and more-like what happens when a nail punctures a lithium ion cell: www.youtube.com/@DonalFinegan

[@metehan3795]

what is the battery you use while showing anode and cathode?

[@grimaffiliations3671]

This channel is criminally underrated

[@patusoro4781]

Excellent video, love the edits! Real question - The 20,000 gallons of water the fire department poured on the car, did it make any difference or did they just waste enough time for the batteries to burn themselves out naturally? I'm thinking the batteries are burning though a sealed, water proof casing. Is the water even getting to the source of the fire or are they just washing the seats and floor mats... and waiting for the fire to go out?

[@ACSReactions]

While it's hard to say for sure, huge amounts of water are likely to help stop a battery fire faster than just letting it burn. First off, by the time you have a full on fire, the casing is ruptured, allowing water in. Second, the water doesn't have to make direct contact at the point of the ISC, it just has to pull enough heat away from the battery to break the positive feedback loop that's providing energy and oxygen for combustion.

[@asteria4279]

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe just keep the surroundings cool enough to not cause other damage? I have seen firefighters let a lost cause burn itself out and just concentrate on prevention of spreading.

[@farhanaahmad408]

How would sand or clay do to put out fire?

[@SuperLocrian]

Yeah, I was wondering if something other than water could be used - of course, I realize that the general firetrucks carry water as do hydrants.... and the Fire Fighters would have to be notified they were going to an EV fire... But hypothetically (and chemically) is there some foam or something better for the job?

[@mareksolenis1596]

@@SuperLocrian Vermiculite works on such batteries, question is how it will work with a car?

[@RedHedDes]

Your editing and seemless dialogue cuts are really well done.

[@KareemFloat]

man, your voice is perfect for talking. legitimately the perfect voice for explanations and teaching.

[@peterjackson2625]

First class explanation of the battery fires. The thermal runaway is similar to the runway of an explosion.

[@AvianYuen]

This was fun and informative. Thanks!

[@steveinoz8188]

On KZbin channel Stache D he, as a fireman, recommends just leaving the car to burn. To save water and keep firefighters safe. The newer LFP batteries are a lot more stable than the older chemistry batteries and its harder to get them to catch on fire..

[@RustigeSwerwer]

Excellent video. Thank you

[@empmachine]

How can this only have ~800 likes..??? the footage is awesome and the explanations clear.. Well you got my thumb, nice work!

[@catdadproblems]

Excellent content as always - but that creepy murder basement with a... tub?

[@yesthatsam]

Another amazing video! You guys rock ❤

[@andrewhansen4179]

Good presentation. Thank you.

[@quintessenceSL]

Per my dad (engineer) "I only need to understand something 70% to do something useful with it" (explaining the difference between scientist and engineer).

[@prapanthebachelorette6803]

Omg so true lol 😂

[@Phootaba]

Kudos for the safety glasses and gloves when disassembling the battery. I'm guiding it was discharged, but still you had me nervous for a moment

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@srb1855]

Excellent, well-deliverd presentation. I actually learned a few things. 👍👍

[@MrDaiseymay]

SO DID i , LIKE, i DIDN'T UNDERSTAND A WORD OF WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT, BUT, IT WAS FUN,

[@mitchellcrane9809]

the water they use on a EV to put them out does not actually extinguish the fire! It is simply trying to contain fire till the cells burn themselves out.

[@BRUXXUS]

Love this video! I’m currently designing a product that requires a lithium ion battery for power, and I’m planning it with 2 redundant safety protection measures.

[@ValMartinIreland]

They are a fuel but they also produce a lot of oxygen which increases temperature.

[@banalMinuta]

Editing is top notch. Good job y'all

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@KokLiangLim]

"electrically insulating, chemically conduction" Mind-Blown!!! The missing link on my understanding on WHY separator works since most explanation visualize it as "holes" to let Li go through but not electron, which does not makes sense to me since electron should be so much smaller than whatever elements... has been always wondering how a material let something bigger go through but blocking smaller thing. But what does that mean "Electrons are way too reactive to travel through materials on their own"? 🤔

[@XmarkedSpot]

Also, can anyone explain that sodium natrium conundrum to me? Does it relate to the the missing I in Al and if so how so?

[@johnward5102]

Very very interesting and could hardly have come at a better time. Hurray for human ingenuity! Let's try and use it wisely.

[@garybailey4524]

Great video!

[@Matt-bp5vy]

Wow what an awesomeness channel! Just checked last 4 uploaded videos and subscribed

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@sarchelsami]

Grate , Grate Lessons , many, many thanks för your vidio

[@adrielreyes1818]

The smooth, near perfect, transitions mid sentence 👌 New sub

[@GabrielaLopez-cn8qm]

So interesting, other than the design of the battery itself, they could in fact try cooling the fire faster, say with dry ice or liquid nitrogen! Do you have any thoughts about this?

[@FloydMaxwell]

I had a similar thought. Biggest problem is that the fire is in the battery pack, which is always installed at the bottom of the vehicle (to keep a low center of gravity). So you can get water or other cooling agents to the battery directly. In short, the water is almost completely useless, and liquid nitrogen might not be much better. And then you'd have to keep a substantial supply of it on hand, in a tank you could tow behind your fire truck? Logistics are difficult, to say the least.

[@beyourself36]

I have those bateries in the ring bell cam, 1865 ... Is it dangetous for house ?

[@morezco]

The mid-phrase cuts are so satisfying

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@davidpacholok8935]

Fantastic and entertaining video sir! I have sent a few li ion cells into TR intentionally and not. The white hot sparks that are emitted with a Fully Charged cell are a sight to behold. Reminds me of thermite reactions. Think about high Nickel cathode chemistries. The Ni0 is callandered on to a sheet of Aluminum which is the positive current collector. .. according to the web Ni0x and AL powder also make thermite... so u see where I'm going with this. Another observation is that below 50% state of charge the cell usually vents Without the thermite fireworks. In a discharged cell much lithium has been transfered to the cathode. I suspect that Li is more strongly bonded to the oxygen than Aluminum, and this prevents the Aluminum from from reacting with the Li loaded Nickel oxide? Your comments please sir.

[@XmarkedSpot]

This is good -content- -entertainment-. I'll have a subscription thank you.

[@almighty3372]

I like your video, I have subscribed it......a must action!!!!!!

[@Mirrey1203]

Awesome vid

[@grimaffiliations3671]

Im getting really good at catching these mid word transitions.

[@theofficialmechelle]

The sped up voice over hilarious 🤣 Good stuff #KnowledgemadeFun

[@asteria4279]

11:30 sodium battery? Doesn't that mean a whole lot of extra fun with firefighter water when it does eventually light on fire?!

[@kucami1]

Best frame in this whole video is the dog walking in

[@RobertKohut]

Are Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries safer? Or are they immune from thermal runaway?

[@II00I00]

great video

[@jeads21]

The reaction also increases with the pressure, pressurize a cylinder and the temperature increases, it becomes an explosive circle.

[@reginaldgraves1684]

Very interesting and thought provoking. How dangerous is it to allow personal electronicaI devices on aeroplanes or in our pockets for that matter. On a sartorial note, I wonder which companies are beneficiaries of trousers (pants) for adults which don't reach the waist; is it manufacturers of trousers by saving of material or manufacturers of pants by increased sales?

[@williamlangley2044]

Lithium is a alki metal putting water with a alki metal produces a fire or an explosive. Would fire foam put out the fire?

[@Noneblue39]

that was great video

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@LawpickingLocksmith]

Lithium Ion batteries were first tested in 2 way radios during the Vietnam war. Thermal runaways had stifled commercial introduction for a long time. I experienced the changeover on video camera equipment where the so called memory effect of Ni Cad cells had to be eliminated. They built in computer chips to correctly charge and discharge them. Portable music players like the Ipod used them and paved the way for introduction into cell phones. Even the Boeing B787 has a blow hole on the side of the fuselage. New electric cars are designed to vent to the bottom giving occupants time to escape.

[@ALucas73]

John B Goodenough invented the lithium battery in 1976. The Vietnam war ended in 1975.

[@abcjelly]

thank u for using celsius 🙏🙏

[@hitherefrompointswest4805]

Amazing information and EXTREMELY helpful. Well done. It does make me think....if this kind of runaway is understood to be REAL why would we allow these things to be produced UNLESS we first, in the interest of public safety, see an effective method of combatting the flames? Water douses gas fires pretty quickly but this nightmare needs a better solution......and if it were ME I would have had a hold on any production of these things until the fire departments and us in general had Fire Extingushing solutions available to make this all safe. NOT GOOD> we are a world of fools

[@brianfritz575]

We do understand how best to put out battery fires... the issue is that most fire departments don't have what is best for putting that fire out. Think of the good 'ole fire triangle. You need heat, an oxidizer, and fuel. All water can do when trying to put out a battery fire, which is a metal fire that is producing oxygen, is to remove some heat energy as the water goes from liquid to steam. If you douse a metal fire in sand, the sand sinks a large amount of heat, removing much of that heat. Additionally the sand smothers external oxygen from reaching the fire. So rather than only impacting one side of the fire triangle, by dousing in sand we can impact 2 sides. Most metal fire extinguishers contain some sore of sand with other chemicals to increase effectiveness. Problem is, it isn't very easy for a truck to carry tons of sand and easily put it right on top of a battery fire!

[@pekjinoei1042]

I think it's time to create a saver battery... New innovation will be needed...

[@phillyphil1513]

1:42 - "LIQUID HOT MAGMA...!!!" (A. Powers/M. Myers/Dr.Evil voice)

[@Deepthought-42]

After the Freemantle Highway fire and the need to evacuate the ship because the fire could not be extinguished, I wonder how long it will be before there is a serious EV fire on a car ferry requiring evacuation. Certainly on car ferries on the English Channel there do not appear to be any additional measures to deal with EV fires despite the increasing proportion of EVs therefore the increased probability of one occurring in or spreading to an EV from a fire in an ICE vehicle.

[@Kenneth-ts7bp]

Nice!

[@Squeezmo]

Electrons don’t move much (4 cm/min). The energy passing thru bouncing between the forces around the electrons is what gives voltage-current.

[@lfemomo77]

You need to give your editor a raise

[@beachboardfan9544]

I'm gunna thumbs up this vid in hopes that it results in more ad revenue so the host can afford to buy adult shirts that fit properly...

[@ACSReactions]

We appreciate your contribution to the cause.

[@Chuzo1946]

Bahahah

[@jolianijulianes5550]

Why USA government never think safety for People , from E V

[@beachboardfan9544]

@@jolianijulianes5550 The US gov only cares about profit, not people.

[@Guynhistruck]

​@@beachboardfan9544Humans, amirite?

[@seaplaneguy1]

How much energy is given off during burning than what is stored in use. For example, if a battery pack is 100 kwh, how many Kwh of heat are given off when the battery burns? 10000? 100:1?

[@diydantex6150]

OK so converting my Prius battery from Nickel to Lithium cells might not be a good idea? You give me something to think about.

[@taysooheetaysoohee1648]

Use foamtype fire extinguisher

[@ScottO84]

Foam extinguishing agents are not effective enough at dissipating heat and cannot isolate the heat and ISC from oxygen.

[@cotswoldsafety5749]

This was excellent for non scientists like me.

[@spadress]

what exactly (what metal oxide and why) is contained in the cathode, that releases oxygen?

[@javelinXH992]

It’s mostly the ones that contain cobalt oxide that are subject to thermal runaway. The cobalt oxide breaks down at raised temperature, releasing oxygen that then reacts with the electrolyte. If a lot of that happens, then it all gets out of control pretty fast. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are much safer - no cobalt oxide, but not immune to fire.

[@milli_on4451]

When an EV gets on fire does the level of battery charge affect the intensity or the duration of fire??

[@noahriding5780]

Is there more than one type of Lithium battery? I ask because its not just electric vehicle car batteries that catch fire, but also ebikes. And there's also lithium deep cycle batteries in solar stuff. So is there more than one kind of lithium battery? I've heard people claim that solar deep cycle batteries that are lithium are a different kind than lithium ev batteries... but it doesn't seem like that could be true.

[@greeceuranusputin]

I'm wondering if EVs could be mandated to have a fire department port that will allow firemen to flood the battery compartment without having to tear the car apart.

[@ireallyreallyhategoogle]

I'm pretty sure sodium is easier to get than lithium.

[@EcoHouseThailand]

The 2 biggest EV manufactures are BYD - 100% lithium iron phosphate batteries (LFP) - and Tesla whose best selling models by far are the standard range model 3 & Y that now use lithium iron phosphate (LFP). Ford has also moved to LFP. LFP are far safer than Li Ion just Google byd blade battery nail test

[@patrickmulholland1840]

with a process of thermal runaway process there is really nothing would make any difference until the process is over fact trust me on this one

[@carlosr8788]

Everyone please like, subscribe & comment! Apparently this man can only afford child-size t-shirts? We must help him! Lol. Jk. Randomly found this video and ended up staying for the whole thing. Thanks

[@Toolspecs]

Lol you need a better lighter, but it was some funny bloopers

[@mikehunt9392]

Do you ever feel like a linear equation trying to make it an exponential world 😅

[@Inkling777]

Water doesn't put out EV fires. Water keeps the fire from spreading until the material is exhausted.

[@jagmarc]

Because they cram in far far too many electron ions and anti-ions into a confined space - the battery - and the ions/anti ions far too close each other is like an explosive. Even with rockets the oxidiser is kept separate and only mixed at the last moment.

[@MrDaiseymay]

PUZZLING---WHY WASN'T THIS DANGER DISCOVERED DURING THE TESTING PHASE ?

[@STEAMerBear]

Okay firefighters, I’m a chemistry teacher and an Army veteran. Here are my questions: 1) How are you CURRENTLY trained to extinguish a BONA FIDE alkali metal fire such as burning potassium or sodium? 2) Has ANYONE explained to you that EV fires may fall into this category? 3) What happens when you add water to an alkali metal? That’s it. P.s. Fire departments might want to explore carrying 20-30 gallons of liquid nitrogen in a dewar on fire trucks precisely to deal with things like this. (It reduces heat and oxygen really well.)

[@farhanaahmad408]

The paper thing on board was distracting.

[@fikipilot]

Macro- can fire departments have new technology created so they can use liquid nitrogen to put out the ev fire? Two teslas crash and catch fire. Spray with liquid nitrogen... would it work?

[@ScottO84]

While it may be possible, the costs of such technology would exceed what most agencies could afford. The same pumper we bought for just over $800k in 2016 built today would cost ~$1.3 million. The costs have gotten astronomical while the tax bases have become less able and less willing to provide those funds.

[@Ceelvain]

Wait! Are they throwing *water* at a *lithium* battery fire?

[@williamlangley2044]

Ooh you see the problem to, with lithium + water=fire also 😮

[@piotrfilipowicz8599]

The speaker should know 9V battery is not a Li-Ion battery. The problem is quite understandable for scientsts. They hope solid electrolites will give better batteries and grow of the lithium dendrites responible for short circuits will not take place.

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@williamlangley2044]

They do make a 9 volt rechargeable lithium battery

[@lrmackmcbride7498]

They make both rechargable and non-rechargable 9volt lithium batteries.

[@medolmshaoshasafetyman]

dry ice? couldn't that cool it quickly?

[@BigEightiesNewWave]

Fun fact, when owners walks off you can pull the plug and toss it on ground OR plug in and charge on their bank account.

[@thekaxmax]

pressure valve: so it's not a tech issue but a design one. And this is why research is well on the way to use an electrolyte solvent that isn't water. Ionic liquids are much much safer.

[@GrantSR]

So, why is it that LiFePo batteries are supposedly so much less likely to catch on fire?

[@derek8482]

or could be now...

[@Nmethyltransferase]

The hip-hop beat with the Korean newscaster sounds like an unintentional K-Pop song. Wait... I'm the only one who thinks so? Just me..? No, yeah... I-it's cool~ Yeah, right... It's fine. Carry on.

[@kucami1]

You're not the only one. I thought it was cool too. Just didn't know how to put a finger on it! Also, how did you decide on that awesome screen name?

[@wbwarren57]

Electric vehicles are great! Just as long as they’re never allowed to park in underground parking garages, normal, parking, garages, or next to each other in any parking lot. Electric vehicles are great! Oh, and never put them onto ships or onto car carriers on the road. Electric vehicles are great! Oh, also never charge them inside your garage at your house. Electric vehicles are great!

[@philipoakley5498]

For the Swedish research "Putting out lithium ion batteries with plain water in a short time", there's kzbin.info/www/bejne/aqnNdZejq52oqM0 video that shows how they are looking at coping. Some of the issues are unfamiliarity and 'lack of practice' (see #1). Regular vehicle fires can be much worse, but they are familiar and not newsworthy. The ship fires are interesting as they carry on regardless (i.e they have been happening for decades). The LashFire study webinar kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5uaZ4aOgteSpc0 has some real (live) fire demos - the main issue isn't the fuel but the plastics and rubber in the vehicles. Finally there's likely to be a shift to the LFP technology which is a positive temperature coefficient chemisty so doesn't suffer the same thermal runaway problem as Li ion.

[@petersmythe6462]

I can tell you right now throwing water into a giant alkali metal fire is not the most brilliant plan ever conceived.

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@vencibushy]

I guess they have to introduce negative feedback loop. Simple... 😀

[@jamesevans4286]

GMG aluminum graphene. Zero chance of fire. Last 3x times longer. Charges 70x faster. Costs 4x less. Lithium ion batteries like an incandescent lightbulb. Solid state batteries. CFLs. Aluminum graphene battery. Like LED.

[@AidanRatnage]

So a 9V battery is an actual battery and not a cell?

[@lrmackmcbride7498]

Correct

[@DelfinoGarza77]

Lithium burns when you put it in water

[@chrishosking6842]

With the right equipment and training you can put out an EV battery fire in under an hour. Remember there are over 280,000 ICE fires every year in the US alone (Causing Explosions & Death). EV fires only make up

[@octapc]

Thankfully Sodium Batteries will replace them this year

[@TheTransporter007]

Lithium is a helluva drug. Or something.

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@williamlangley2044]

Back the 80s it was nick named the suicide drug .

[@ALucas73]

John B Goodenough invented the lithium battery in 1976.

[@michaeld5888]

The lead acid battery in our cars was one big cell but who knows now. It just seems that the rush to electric with all the activists in a hysterical panic funk giving short deadlines meaning just lashing together thousands of these torch batteries is a make do bodge. The tech seems to be all chemistry with no sign of any overall physical design thinking on an integrated safe module specifically designed for a car. Maybe it is not possible but these masses of single little cells wired in series to create mega voltages just do not look safe. I would certainly not feel safe sitting over a mass of them and I worry about members of my family that do. I would not leave a single camera battery on charge over night unattended and sleep safe let alone 3,000+. The fact that most non OEM camera battery charges leave out the thermistor pin and some batteries dummy the output shows how sloppy standards can get to save costs and make the sale.

[@shadowshatto]

We shouldn't be using inventions we don't understand enough to make failsafes to and I don't mean like a mere pressure release when it's more complicated than that.

[@user-mc9om5di1f]

Lithium batteries are thermodynamically unstable. When not if they fail they explode or go into thermal runaway and burn until all of the chemicals are consumed.

[@innocherche7112]

have you heard of a project in China to double the tunnel for cars so that EV go into a separate one ?!

[@sue9151]

All the Water it takes not Good .