Why Are Electric Vehicle Fires So Hard To Put Out?

[@ACSReactions]

That high speed x-ray footage of thermal runaway came from Dr. Donal Finegan with the National Renewable Energy Lab. Check out that clip and more-like what happens when a nail punctures a lithium ion cell: www.youtube.com/@DonalFinegan

[@metehan3795]

what is the battery you use while showing anode and cathode?

[@Balin_James]

You guys really had fun editing this one, didn’t you? 😂 I’m all for it

[@playgroundchooser]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who came down here to mention the mid-word transitions that are all completely flawless! This was such a great episode in a channel that is full of top notch content.

[@cabnbeeschurgr]

I'm a firefighter student, my instructor briefly touched on why lithium-fuelled fires are so dangerous but this does a great job of providing more in-depth explanations. It's good to know about incidents that will likely only increase in occurence as evs become more widely used.

[@STEAMerBear]

Okay firefighters, I’m a chemistry teacher and an Army veteran. Here are my questions: 1) How are you CURRENTLY trained to extinguish a BONA FIDE alkali metal fire such as burning potassium or sodium? 2) Has ANYONE explained to you that EV fires may fall into this category? 3) What happens when you add water to an alkali metal? That’s it. P.s. Fire departments might want to explore carrying 20-30 gallons of liquid nitrogen in a dewar on fire trucks precisely to deal with things like this. (It reduces heat and oxygen really well.)

[@urgreatestenemy3044]

There are three ways to extinguish a fire remove the heat that causes the reaction, remove the fuel that feeds it, or remove the oxygen it needs to continue the reaction. If you put a fire in a bottle, then put a lid on that container it extinguishes very quickly because it eats up the oxygen really quickly in the small space. I've often wondered why the fire department doesn't create a big expandable box that can be lowered over vehicles to smother car fires. There could also be sprayers inside the box to cool and help put out fires. Where the batteries in an electric vehicle would create their own oxygen, a fire would only have that oxygen to feed it, so in theory it would be easier to extinguish. You could also pump carbon dioxide inside the box, cutting off the oxygen that is required to continue the reaction. A metal box would have to be pretty thick, so the heat would not distort the metal so it would be pretty heavy I'm not sure if you could make it out of another material like asbestos or ceramic making it lighter and easier to put in place or even better if you could make it like a fire blanket and just drag it over the vehicle. I just find it silly to dump water over a vehicle to try and extinguish a fire as the vehicles body panels prevent water from reaching certain areas where the fire is contained. Granted this could not be used in all situations like if a person was trapped inside the vehicle it could not be used, but in certain situations I can see it could work better than just a dumping a ton of water on the fire.

[@KareemFloat]

man, your voice is perfect for talking. legitimately the perfect voice for explanations and teaching.

[@greengooflight]

this was the best explanation of a thermal runaway of a lithium battery ever

[@patusoro4781]

Excellent video, love the edits! Real question - The 20,000 gallons of water the fire department poured on the car, did it make any difference or did they just waste enough time for the batteries to burn themselves out naturally? I'm thinking the batteries are burning though a sealed, water proof casing. Is the water even getting to the source of the fire or are they just washing the seats and floor mats... and waiting for the fire to go out?

[@ACSReactions]

While it's hard to say for sure, huge amounts of water are likely to help stop a battery fire faster than just letting it burn. First off, by the time you have a full on fire, the casing is ruptured, allowing water in. Second, the water doesn't have to make direct contact at the point of the ISC, it just has to pull enough heat away from the battery to break the positive feedback loop that's providing energy and oxygen for combustion.

[@asteria4279]

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe just keep the surroundings cool enough to not cause other damage? I have seen firefighters let a lost cause burn itself out and just concentrate on prevention of spreading.

[@farhanaahmad408]

How would sand or clay do to put out fire?

[@SuperLocrian]

Yeah, I was wondering if something other than water could be used - of course, I realize that the general firetrucks carry water as do hydrants.... and the Fire Fighters would have to be notified they were going to an EV fire... But hypothetically (and chemically) is there some foam or something better for the job?

[@mareksolenis1596]

@@SuperLocrian Vermiculite works on such batteries, question is how it will work with a car?

[@grimaffiliations3671]

This channel is criminally underrated

[@peterjackson2625]

First class explanation of the battery fires. The thermal runaway is similar to the runway of an explosion.

[@quintessenceSL]

Per my dad (engineer) "I only need to understand something 70% to do something useful with it" (explaining the difference between scientist and engineer).

[@prapanthebachelorette6803]

Omg so true lol 😂

[@RedHedDes]

Your editing and seemless dialogue cuts are really well done.

[@mitchellcrane9809]

the water they use on a EV to put them out does not actually extinguish the fire! It is simply trying to contain fire till the cells burn themselves out.

[@Phootaba]

Kudos for the safety glasses and gloves when disassembling the battery. I'm guiding it was discharged, but still you had me nervous for a moment

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@brianfritz575]

We do understand how best to put out battery fires... the issue is that most fire departments don't have what is best for putting that fire out. Think of the good 'ole fire triangle. You need heat, an oxidizer, and fuel. All water can do when trying to put out a battery fire, which is a metal fire that is producing oxygen, is to remove some heat energy as the water goes from liquid to steam. If you douse a metal fire in sand, the sand sinks a large amount of heat, removing much of that heat. Additionally the sand smothers external oxygen from reaching the fire. So rather than only impacting one side of the fire triangle, by dousing in sand we can impact 2 sides. Most metal fire extinguishers contain some sore of sand with other chemicals to increase effectiveness. Problem is, it isn't very easy for a truck to carry tons of sand and easily put it right on top of a battery fire!

[@DaveNanan]

Excellent explanation of Thermal Runaway! 😊

[@urgreatestenemy3044]

There are three ways to extinguish a fire remove the heat that causes the reaction, remove the fuel that feeds it, or remove the oxygen it needs to continue the reaction. If you put a fire in a bottle, then put a lid on that container it extinguishes very quickly because it eats up the oxygen really quickly in the small space. I've often wondered why the fire department doesn't create a big expandable box that can be lowered over vehicles to smother car fires. There could also be sprayers inside the box to cool and help put out fires. Where the batteries in an Electric vehicle would create their own oxygen, a fire would only have that oxygen to feed it, so in theory it would be easier to extinguish. You could also pump carbon dioxide inside the box, cutting off the oxygen that is required to continue the reaction. A metal box would have to be pretty thick, so the heat would not distort the metal so it would be pretty heavy I'm not sure if you could make it out of another material like asbestos or ceramic making it lighter and easier to put in place or if you could make it like a fire blanket and just drag it over the vehicle. Just find it silly to dump water over a vehicle to try and extinguish a fire as the vehicles body panels prevents water from reaching certain areas. Granted you could not be used this in all situations like if a person was trapped inside the vehicle it could not be used but in certain situations I can see it could work better than just a dumping a ton of water on the fire.

[@vincentstouter449]

There are currently about six Lithium battery chemistries. LMC is often chosen due to its high power:weight ratio for EV’s and are subject to thermal runaway. LFP (lithium iron phosphate) batteries by contrast are NOT subject to thermal runaway, and furthermore have about five times the number of charge/discharge cycles. If a battery is to be placed inside a structure (house, RV, boat, etc) then LFP chemistry is the prudent solution for both safety band longevity. 😎

[@BRUXXUS]

Love this video! I’m currently designing a product that requires a lithium ion battery for power, and I’m planning it with 2 redundant safety protection measures.

[@ValMartinIreland]

They are a fuel but they also produce a lot of oxygen which increases temperature.

[@catdadproblems]

Excellent content as always - but that creepy murder basement with a... tub?

[@srb1855]

Excellent, well-deliverd presentation. I actually learned a few things. 👍👍

[@MrDaiseymay]

SO DID i , LIKE, i DIDN'T UNDERSTAND A WORD OF WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT, BUT, IT WAS FUN,

[@arsyadidris6349]

First time here and the seemless scenes cuts are damn impressive… good job on the edit

[@KokLiangLim]

"electrically insulating, chemically conduction" Mind-Blown!!! The missing link on my understanding on WHY separator works since most explanation visualize it as "holes" to let Li go through but not electron, which does not makes sense to me since electron should be so much smaller than whatever elements... has been always wondering how a material let something bigger go through but blocking smaller thing. But what does that mean "Electrons are way too reactive to travel through materials on their own"? 🤔

[@adrielreyes1818]

The smooth, near perfect, transitions mid sentence 👌 New sub

[@empmachine]

How can this only have ~800 likes..??? the footage is awesome and the explanations clear.. Well you got my thumb, nice work!

[@AvianYuen]

This was fun and informative. Thanks!

[@GabrielaLopez-cn8qm]

So interesting, other than the design of the battery itself, they could in fact try cooling the fire faster, say with dry ice or liquid nitrogen! Do you have any thoughts about this?

[@FloydMaxwell]

I had a similar thought. Biggest problem is that the fire is in the battery pack, which is always installed at the bottom of the vehicle (to keep a low center of gravity). So you can get water or other cooling agents to the battery directly. In short, the water is almost completely useless, and liquid nitrogen might not be much better. And then you'd have to keep a substantial supply of it on hand, in a tank you could tow behind your fire truck? Logistics are difficult, to say the least.

[@asteria4279]

11:30 sodium battery? Doesn't that mean a whole lot of extra fun with firefighter water when it does eventually light on fire?!

[@yesthatsam]

Another amazing video! You guys rock ❤

[@John-vz1wq]

According to his research, shorter shirts can provide more ventilation and therefore prevet thermal runaways.

[@wbwarren57]

Electric vehicles are great! Just as long as they’re never allowed to park in underground parking garages, normal, parking, garages, or next to each other in any parking lot. Electric vehicles are great! Oh, and never put them onto ships or onto car carriers on the road. Electric vehicles are great! Oh, also never charge them inside your garage at your house. Electric vehicles are great!

[@evilroyslade2491]

Brilliant, now I know more battery stuff than before.

[@richardchambers3979]

Thank you for explaining thermo runaway.

[@NAVYABHAN]

That Small Valve reminds me of a Nozzle for a Rocket Engine! The Military uses FOAM to put out all sort’s of fires and the quality of FOAM that enables it to do this is its ability to deprive a fire of the oxygen it needs to burn.

[@beachboardfan9544]

I'm gunna thumbs up this vid in hopes that it results in more ad revenue so the host can afford to buy adult shirts that fit properly...

[@ACSReactions]

We appreciate your contribution to the cause.

[@Chuzo1946]

Bahahah

[@jolianijulianes5550]

Why USA government never think safety for People , from E V

[@beachboardfan9544]

@@jolianijulianes5550 The US gov only cares about profit, not people.

[@Guynhistruck]

​@@beachboardfan9544Humans, amirite?

[@banalMinuta]

Editing is top notch. Good job y'all

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@kucami1]

Best frame in this whole video is the dog walking in

[@shadowofdaveinthedarkcave]

The most common cause of EV fires is thermal runaway, which is a rapid, uncontrolled increase in temperature leading to catastrophic battery failure or explosions. The temperature of an electric vehicle fire can reach 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit, compared to 1,500 degrees in a gas-powered car fire.

[@michaelchang3042]

Good job for sharing this 😊

[@johnward5102]

Very very interesting and could hardly have come at a better time. Hurray for human ingenuity! Let's try and use it wisely.

[@XmarkedSpot]

Also, can anyone explain that sodium natrium conundrum to me? Does it relate to the the missing I in Al and if so how so?

[@baxterwilliams2170]

Lovely video!

[@grimaffiliations3671]

Im getting really good at catching these mid word transitions.

[@jeads21]

The reaction also increases with the pressure, pressurize a cylinder and the temperature increases, it becomes an explosive circle.

[@Inkling777]

Water doesn't put out EV fires. Water keeps the fire from spreading until the material is exhausted.

[@morezco]

The mid-phrase cuts are so satisfying

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@LawpickingLocksmith]

Lithium Ion batteries were first tested in 2 way radios during the Vietnam war. Thermal runaways had stifled commercial introduction for a long time. I experienced the changeover on video camera equipment where the so called memory effect of Ni Cad cells had to be eliminated. They built in computer chips to correctly charge and discharge them. Portable music players like the Ipod used them and paved the way for introduction into cell phones. Even the Boeing B787 has a blow hole on the side of the fuselage. New electric cars are designed to vent to the bottom giving occupants time to escape.

[@ALucas73]

John B Goodenough invented the lithium battery in 1976. The Vietnam war ended in 1975.

[@RobertKohut]

Are Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries safer? Or are they immune from thermal runaway?

[@davidpacholok8935]

Fantastic and entertaining video sir! I have sent a few li ion cells into TR intentionally and not. The white hot sparks that are emitted with a Fully Charged cell are a sight to behold. Reminds me of thermite reactions. Think about high Nickel cathode chemistries. The Ni0 is callandered on to a sheet of Aluminum which is the positive current collector. .. according to the web Ni0x and AL powder also make thermite... so u see where I'm going with this. Another observation is that below 50% state of charge the cell usually vents Without the thermite fireworks. In a discharged cell much lithium has been transfered to the cathode. I suspect that Li is more strongly bonded to the oxygen than Aluminum, and this prevents the Aluminum from from reacting with the Li loaded Nickel oxide? Your comments please sir.

[@williamlangley2044]

Lithium is a alki metal putting water with a alki metal produces a fire or an explosive. Would fire foam put out the fire?

[@Squeezmo]

Electrons don’t move much (4 cm/min). The energy passing thru bouncing between the forces around the electrons is what gives voltage-current.

[@Matt-bp5vy]

Wow what an awesomeness channel! Just checked last 4 uploaded videos and subscribed

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@pekjinoei1042]

I think it's time to create a saver battery... New innovation will be needed...

[@Notmiddleg]

Question: according to the positive feedback loop, that would technically mean without water the temperature can increase infinitely. Am i wrong to assume that?

[@-TheOracle-]

I would go with the new, up-and-coming Toyota hybrid. That’s ultimately what I would like! The people who are only talking about battery-powered vehicles aren’t thinking clearly. Any vehicle, once in motion, can create kinetic energy and convert it into electrical energy. Toyota is the future until we find a better solution, in my opinion.

[@afawoking6885]

why The cathode release oxygen when heating?

[@milli_on4451]

When an EV gets on fire does the level of battery charge affect the intensity or the duration of fire??

[@seaplaneguy1]

How much energy is given off during burning than what is stored in use. For example, if a battery pack is 100 kwh, how many Kwh of heat are given off when the battery burns? 10000? 100:1?

[@andrewhansen4179]

Good presentation. Thank you.

[@RustigeSwerwer]

Excellent video. Thank you

[@taysooheetaysoohee1648]

Use foamtype fire extinguisher

[@ScottO84]

Foam extinguishing agents are not effective enough at dissipating heat and cannot isolate the heat and ISC from oxygen.

[@noahriding5780]

Is there more than one type of Lithium battery? I ask because its not just electric vehicle car batteries that catch fire, but also ebikes. And there's also lithium deep cycle batteries in solar stuff. So is there more than one kind of lithium battery? I've heard people claim that solar deep cycle batteries that are lithium are a different kind than lithium ev batteries... but it doesn't seem like that could be true.

[@mikehunt9392]

Do you ever feel like a linear equation trying to make it an exponential world 😅

[@sarchelsami]

Grate , Grate Lessons , many, many thanks för your vidio

[@user-Orkb186-3]

CHEMISTRY 101 ! ! ! Lithium-ion batteries. Lithium (Li) is a chemical Element at the head of Column 1 in the Chemical Periodic Table, also in Column 1 are the following Elements in order, Sodium (Na), Potassium (K), Rubidium (Rb), Caesium (Cs) and Francium (Fr). All of these elements are vicious in their activity with other chemicals, particularly water, where they burn at a very high temperature. The box these elements are kept in must be totally air tight to prevent even the slightest moisture from getting into the box, if moisture does get into the container it will explode and create one huge fire which it is impossible to put out. Now research is going on into Sodium-ion batteries which are much cheaper to manufacture than Lithium-ion batteries since Sodium is fairly cheap to manufacture from common salt. If ever they do make Sodium-ion batteries, well don’t even think about it, they will be ten times worse than Li-ion batteries.

[@goodflop255]

When they do catch fire it happens so fast that it is often impossible to escape. Not a place for young kids or older adults. Even young fit people have to be quick and lucky to get out before the inferno and toxicity is released. Should not be allowed in condo or apartment building underground parking lots and only to be recharged outside and away from buildings.

[@EcoHouseThailand]

The 2 biggest EV manufactures are BYD - 100% lithium iron phosphate batteries (LFP) - and Tesla whose best selling models by far are the standard range model 3 & Y that now use lithium iron phosphate (LFP). Ford has also moved to LFP. LFP are far safer than Li Ion just Google byd blade battery nail test

[@chrishosking6842]

With the right equipment and training you can put out an EV battery fire in under an hour. Remember there are over 280,000 ICE fires every year in the US alone (Causing Explosions & Death). EV fires only make up

[@waynegnarlie1]

Would liquid nitrogen would quickly extinguish this type of fire?

[@carlosr8788]

Everyone please like, subscribe & comment! Apparently this man can only afford child-size t-shirts? We must help him! Lol. Jk. Randomly found this video and ended up staying for the whole thing. Thanks

[@XmarkedSpot]

This is good -content- -entertainment-. I'll have a subscription thank you.

[@ewright4108]

In the old days Halon gas was used (still is in aviation). You either pulled a handle or it was self activated. You could factory fit a nitrogen bottle to do this but you might end up with a lot of dead car mechanics somewhere down the line.

[@garybailey4524]

Great video!

[@housellama]

What's the music in this one?

[@MemoUnscripted]

Awesome vid

[@diydantex6150]

OK so converting my Prius battery from Nickel to Lithium cells might not be a good idea? You give me something to think about.

[@kennystrawnmusic]

EV fires are hard to put out for the exact same reason why UPS Flight 6 was so difficult to control. Lithium is an alkali metal, and anyone who has spent time in a chemistry lab can tell you that Group 1 of the periodic table is without a doubt the most reactive set of elements there is. You throw sodium in water and it explodes. You throw lithium in water and it does the exact same thing - will never forget that King of Random video that involved taking a lithium strip out of an Energizer battery and throwing it into a bowl of water. The reaction gets so violent that it actually melts the glass bowl and causes it to crack from the thermal stress. Battery fires are really Class D fires, pure and simple. Those same precautions that firefighters take when fighting magnesium fires need also be taken when fighting electric vehicle fires, because the chemistry involved is the same.

[@jonasb911]

Wrong. In Lithium-Ion batteries is little to none Lithium in a metalic form.

[@jamesevans4286]

GMG aluminum graphene. Zero chance of fire. Last 3x times longer. Charges 70x faster. Costs 4x less. Lithium ion batteries like an incandescent lightbulb. Solid state batteries. CFLs. Aluminum graphene battery. Like LED.

[@abcjelly]

thank u for using celsius 🙏🙏

[@DanielOrtegoUSA]

In fact, fires are becoming more common as more EVs hit the roads. There’s no way I’d ever keep an EV in my garage-it’s too much of a risk for burning down my home. 🧐

[@ACSReactions]

Fun fact: EVs are less likely to have fires than ICEs, but those fires can be harder to put out.

[@thekaxmax]

pressure valve: so it's not a tech issue but a design one. And this is why research is well on the way to use an electrolyte solvent that isn't water. Ionic liquids are much much safer.

[@lfemomo77]

You need to give your editor a raise

[@Noneblue39]

that was great video

[@ChannelNews1]

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

[@GreeceUranusPutin]

I'm wondering if EVs could be mandated to have a fire department port that will allow firemen to flood the battery compartment without having to tear the car apart.

[@patrickmulholland1840]

with a process of thermal runaway process there is really nothing would make any difference until the process is over fact trust me on this one

[@hristina24]

Great video, small T-shirt

[@theofficialmechelle]

The sped up voice over hilarious 🤣 Good stuff #KnowledgemadeFun

[@RobertKohut]

The water didn't put them out. It (the fire) just died due to it using all of it's fuel and ability to remain self sustaining!! 🙂

[@TransGaymerGrace]

Honestly this is so interesting. I love how you really make the dangers clear in this video. I just started a robotics class and this video amoung others was used as a kind of intro/safety warning and just wow, this has been such a great resouce for my education that you have provided, I though you deserved me finding it again and thanking you. thank you, so so much!

[@phillyphil1513]

1:42 - "LIQUID HOT MAGMA...!!!" (A. Powers/M. Myers/Dr.Evil voice)

[@spadress]

what exactly (what metal oxide and why) is contained in the cathode, that releases oxygen?

[@javelinXH992]

It’s mostly the ones that contain cobalt oxide that are subject to thermal runaway. The cobalt oxide breaks down at raised temperature, releasing oxygen that then reacts with the electrolyte. If a lot of that happens, then it all gets out of control pretty fast. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are much safer - no cobalt oxide, but not immune to fire.

[@hitherefrompointswest4805]

Amazing information and EXTREMELY helpful. Well done. It does make me think....if this kind of runaway is understood to be REAL why would we allow these things to be produced UNLESS we first, in the interest of public safety, see an effective method of combatting the flames? Water douses gas fires pretty quickly but this nightmare needs a better solution......and if it were ME I would have had a hold on any production of these things until the fire departments and us in general had Fire Extingushing solutions available to make this all safe. NOT GOOD> we are a world of fools

[@reginaldgraves1684]

Very interesting and thought provoking. How dangerous is it to allow personal electronicaI devices on aeroplanes or in our pockets for that matter. On a sartorial note, I wonder which companies are beneficiaries of trousers (pants) for adults which don't reach the waist; is it manufacturers of trousers by saving of material or manufacturers of pants by increased sales?

[@Kenneth-ts7bp]

Nice!

[@robertklund3201]

EV fires are very hard to put out because they are a combination Class C (electrical) and Class D (burning metals like lithium) fires.

[@stacysanders-w3e]

Lithium batteries are thermodynamically unstable. When not if they fail they explode or go into thermal runaway and burn until all of the chemicals are consumed.

[@Littlefreetime]

This would support the point of, Why the hell are these things out there in these quantities and these capacities, or sizes, when the ability to handle fires, thermal runaway, or disposal hasnt been thought through?

[@II00I00]

great video

[@almighty3372]

I like your video, I have subscribed it......a must action!!!!!!

[@jagmarc]

Because they cram in far far too many electron ions and anti-ions into a confined space - the battery - and the ions/anti ions far too close each other is like an explosive. Even with rockets the oxidiser is kept separate and only mixed at the last moment.