Adding Honey at Once VS Step Feeding MEAD - Any Difference?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Still not 100% sure what the correct math is but... ours was off for sure, lol. Seems that each addition diluted things and every time there was an addition the errors were compounded. At the end of the day... abv is an estimate without a lab, but if anyone has a formula for calculating step feeds we are open to seeing it! Have a Great REST OF YOUR WEEKEND!

[@Cutright628]

I have a spreadsheet I’d be happy to share, as you always say it’s all estimates and I assumed 3lb of honey is 32oz but I think it’s in the ballpark of accurate

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Sure. Always willing to take a look!

[@NomadOnDiscord]

TLDR: Step feed got 0.010 more starting gravity, so when both ended at 1.018, step feed had used 0.010 more. Going off the numbers you gave towards the end of the video, during the recap, ALL had a SPGR of 1.094, ended at 1.018, for a total used of 0.076. STEP had: 1) Starting: 1.040 (0.040 added) 2) 1.040 to 1.002 (0.038 used) 3) 1.002 to 1.024 (0.022 added) 4) 1.024 to 0.992 (0.032 used) 5) 0.992 to 1.012 (0.020 added) 6) 1.012 to 1.000 (0.012 used) 7) 1.000 to 1.022 (0.022 added) 8) 1.022 to 1.018 (0.004 used) Add up all the "added" and you come up to 0.104 - or 0.010 more than the SPGR of ALL at 1.094. Since they ended at the same spot, the extra 10 points was used and accounts for the difference in final ABV.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

But how does the same volume of honey in the same volume of water produce more alcohol and still end at the same final gravity? Also, your math is a bit off. .086 used in the step, not .104

[@seanrichardson881]

Adding the honey to the liquid changes the gravity. As the honey is consumed the gravity begins resorting back to the gravity it was before the honey was added because the honey is being consumed this is not accounted for. We attribute all the change to the other factor which is the production of alcohol. But there's more than one factor changing the gravity. This is an error in the math. With step feeding and multiple readings and multiple calculations comes more cumulative error.

[@xeronium969]

I don’t work in the alcohol industry but as an engineering student who just finished his bachelor’s thesis, I’d say it’s more of a math/ physics problem due to the dilution from the additional honey. From the 1.25 lbs of honey you added to 0.375 gal of water to fill your 0.5 gal container, we can assume that the dissolved honey added the remaining 0.125 gal, therefore dissolved honey has a density of 1.25 lbs/0.125 gal = 10 lbs/gal (the density of the dissolved honey is most likely not constant, but this should be a good enough approximation). From that we can approximate the volumes you had: vol1: 48 floz + 0.5 lbs/(10 lbs/gal) = 0.375 gal + 0.05 gal = 0.425 gal vol2: 0.425 gal + 0.25 lbs/(10 lbs/gal) = 0.425 gal + 0.025 gal = 0.45 gal vol3: 0.45 gal + 0.025 gal = 0.475 gal vol4: 0.475 gal + 0.025 gal = 0.5 gal Then we have to calculate the gravity points spent in each step and "dilute" them in the final volume. E.g. in the initial step 38 points of gravity have been converted in a volume of 0.425 gal but the final volume is 0.5 gal, meaning in the finished mead the initial 0.5 lbs of honey only contributed: 38 * 0.425 gal / 0.5 gal = 32.3 points of gravity So to calculate the total ABV we have to first calculate the total points spent as follows: ( (1.040-1.002)*0.425 gal + (1.024-0.992)*0.45 gal + (1.012-1.000)*0.475 gal + (1.022-1.018)*0.5 gal) / 0.5 gal = 0.03825 gal / 0.5 gal = 0.07705 So roughly 77 points of gravity have been spent in the total volume. Now using your 135 coefficient to calculate the ABV we get: 0.077 * 135 ≈ 10.40% Since I had to approximate the volumes that isn't identical to the 10.26% of the other mead but I guess close enough. Closing remark: That's way to much math and measuring for a homebrew 😅

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Thanks for that! Way closer!

[@barrytdrake]

Ding ding ding! Winner, winner! As pointed out by all this math (my major, btw), the changes in volume affected (invalidated) the numbers you were using to calculate ABV in the video. The slight difference in taste could be from having to go to a different container of honey to finish the step feed.

[@Cutright628]

@@CitySteadingBrews what I want to see now is take this brew and assume you didn’t have a SG and follow your test from your video “Refractometer + Hydrometer = ABV? Really?” And see where it ends up

[@Cutright628]

@@xeronium969 I love the work done here. My spreadsheet gave me 10.35% for this brew, we were slightly different for the volume of honey per lb, but for the final difference of 0.09% I agree with your final comment, way too much math for homebrew, but it was a fun exercise!

[@AdamFranklin500]

Love those little half gallon fermenters, great for experiments with new/different flavours without committing to a bigger batch

[@timothyherzog9961]

I think the biggest problem, and one that has been touched on in a few comments is the change in volume. When you calculate an ABV using increments of gravity change, then add more honey, we tend to ignore the change in volume to the entire brew. Usually, this is a reasonable approximation, but you're seeing the difference here which is due to this volume change. In brewing we generally care about the concentration of 3 components, fermentable sugars, alcohols (mainly ethanol), and water. Honey is essentially a solution of sugars and water. Adding it to the mead increases specific gravity, but also the volume. The additional volume dilutes the amount of alcohol, which is NOT accounted for in your method of calculation. If you know the added mass of honey (half a pound), and the density of honey, you can calculate the volume of honey added. You should calculate the total volume of pure alcohol (assuming ethanol) produced at each step, then divide by the total new volume after the addition of honey. This is now the starting ABV for the next step of the feed. As for the ABV estimation equation, I believe it is an empirically derived equation, meaning it's based on experiments rather than theory, and should be reasonably accurate, including when specific gravity drops below 1.000 (remember the multiple concentrations!). However, I know less about that. If I had the time, I'd run all the calculations and let you know the numbers I get, but I have to finish writing up my PhD thesis in the next few days. I may be an engineer, but I do have a reasonable grasp of the chemistry and math required here 😜 However, I would presume that you would find the resultant ABV of the step and full to be essentially the same.

[@andrewmacdonald3405]

Didn't see this comment before posting my own, but I entirely agree with this post, two key issues: volume, and density of alcohol in the intermediate steps.

[@azza4493]

You guys are so entertaining and I've learnt so much from you, so thank you!! I have started my first ever batch of mead a month and a half ago (just a traditional mead, including 2kg honey, 4ishL water, mangrove jacks m05 yeast, and yeast nutrients over the first week). The guy at the brewery store suggested I start with a this amount of honey and water and then top it up when things start slowing down (since watching you guys, I now know this is not needed at all and should have left it). So initial gravity reading was 1.16 and it got down to 1.060 and then I added an extra 500gm of honey and about 1.5L of water to fill up the fermenter. I made the mistake of not taking another measurement at this point, so am estimating an increase of .035 gravity. Fast forward to now when I have learnt my mistakes. My brew is now appearing to stop, however, a gravity reading of 1.042. I waited a week, and yesterday, it measured 1.040. If my calculations are correct, it'd be around 20ish % abv. I am wondering if .002 change in gravity is little enough to say there has been no change, therefore, fermentation is complete? Or does it depend on the situation? I can wait another week if need be, but am keen to get it into secondary/conditioning and have already waited the 1st week haha. Apologies for the essay!

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I would let it go longer unless you like it at 1.040? If you like it, then you can pasteurize or... just let it sit and see if it goes any further. I doubt it will move much though.

[@azza4493]

@CitySteadingBrews okay I'll let it sit a bit longer again and see how I go! Moving forward I'll definitely be adding a lot less honey and only aiming for 10-12% abv. Thank you :)

[@robertschroeder1978]

I was lost when Brian made the 14th math calculation and the 9th level yeast feeding. Wondering if you both were lost in the end! Laughter & Big Smiles... You both are so "Awesome". and proof of being totally Mead Geeks... Thanks for the Channel and video....

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Yeah too much, I agree. Step feeds are easy, but we wanted documentation for you folks...

[@alexlarsen6413]

Awesome video!! 👍 As for the abv difference: yes the below 1.000 gravity is relevant and it does mean more alcohol has been produced. This happens because alcohol is water soluble while being less dense than water - therefore there has to be more of it to lower the solution density. The reason why this can occur with the same amount of fermentable sugar added? Because a hydrometer is not a particularly precise instrument. Basically, not to go into how it's calibrated, just consider that any measurement around 1.000, especially at ambient temperatures of above 20°C, means there's at least some trace elements of sugars left.

[@Questerer]

This video is very interesting to me. Before I had all the equipment or even a fermentation vessel, I was so curious about what mead is that I made some with the tools I had. Just a small bit of water honey and a tea spoon of yeast were added and closed off with some plastic. (Note: I fully expected it to grow mould and I’d have to throw it away) It cleared up within a day or 4, so quickly that I added some more honey. And when that cleared up after a week I had learned that adding some tea would be better for the mouth feel so I added that with some more honey. I fully expected it to taste good but it didn’t. It was dry and very high on acidity (if I do understand my underdeveloped taste) I didn’t enjoy it. But I added some more honey to my drink and the sweetness overshadowed the acidity. So I added some more honey. And waited another wee, hoping I would reach a point where the alcohol would be too high for more sugars to ferment to leave a tasty drink. It has cleared up again and it’s tasting better than last time but still not great. Now watching this video I feel like that acidity taste is created by step feeding the honey. Side note: next test will be with real equipment and I just got it all and the ingredients in my home. I will be following your dry mead recipe. Thanks for all your information.

[@beep-beepwatermelon4203]

This video was so fun to watch! I’ve been looking forward to watching it ever since I saw you uploaded this morning. It was worth the wait and I hope you continue to do more science-eeee videos! I would be SUPER interested to see a video where you do apples to apples with one having more oxygen in the beginning than the other. I keep wondering if I should sanitize my vitamix and blend together my water and honey that way before pouring into my fermenter to get all that great oxygen in it.

[@Veggie-Geek]

Great video! I love that there were noticable differneces. I suspect the Full had more time to off gas or something. That or the yest is happier with more food access. hard to say.

[@Cutright628]

Love this idea, been considering doing this for some time!

[@seanrichardson881]

The gravity of the water will be different than the gravity of the water with the honey added. The error in calculation is the gravity is getting changed closer to the gravity of the water before the honey was added, as the sugars are consumed by the yeast while the gravity is also being changed by the alcohol being produced. I don't have an answer but it seems logical to me that this is where the error gets introduced. Basically there are two factors altering the gravity. Alcohol being produced and the consumption of the honey itself. Both factors are being attributed to alcohol. The step feed with multiple calculations would have more accumulative error.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

There's something to that. It's been explained that the dilution occurring with each feed and the inaccuracy of hydrometers combined with the ethanol/water ratio and needing a different coefficient for calculating all added up to the difference.

[@DZSabre]

When I am doing my higher honey Polish meads, I mix a 1:3 Honey:water sample to get a reading. This gives me the equivalent of 3lbs per gallon of honey. With that reading, I simply double or triple it depending on what variety of mead I am making regardless of how much I step feed at a time. I will have a good estimate of the total OSG and can subtract out whatever my final SG is when the step-feeding is done to estimate the ABV.

[@tomemmite5358]

I really enjoy y’all’s “experiment” videos. They’re very fascinating and answer many questions I’ve had. He’s an idea for your next experiment: yeast blend? Blending a variety of yeast to see if you can capture the esters of each, or better performance, or higher alcohol levels. Just a thought.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

That's not how yeast works though... stronger colony starves out the weaker most of the time.

[@tomemmite5358]

@ good to know. Thank you.

[@AdamFranklin500]

Awesome video, definitely a thought provoking experiment which is cool.

[@ravencrovax]

I have been doing step feed brews for several years now and most of them I have been using a similar method to what you used. Adding straight honey at stepped intervals. Recently I switched my method and would be interested in your thoughts. The method I switched to is to mix up the full quantity of honey and water at the start. I take an SG reading at that point, then I pour off a gallon of the honey mixture and put it into a storage area. I also pull about a cup of the honey mixture to pitch the yeast with some fermaid O. Then I add the pitched yeast and fermaid O to the main batch. (I usually brew in 5 gallon batches so even after pulling a gallon off, there are 4 gallons left in the main batch.) Then I let the main batch ferment down until it is almost dry, then I add 1/3 of the gallon that I pulled off at the beginning. Let that ferment down to almost dry again and repeat two more times until all of the honey water mixture that I pulled off at the beginning is added to the main brew. This seems to produce a better and higher abv mead, imo. I have been getting 13-17% on a regular basis using D47 yeast which is fairly high for that strain of yeast. My theory as to why this works is because there is a higher density of sugar in the unfermented mixture that I pull off at the beginning, so I am still adding sugar to the strongest and most alcohol tolerant yeast. This also makes the math easier because you have a single starting SG and a single final SG because it is the same mix. It just helps the yeast push to a higher alcohol content than they would normally be able to. It does take more work and you have to moniter the SG of the main batch fairly closely to get the right time to add the next step, but all the brews that I have done using this method have turned out very nicely and have reached a higher abv than D47 is usually listed for. I would be very interested to see you do a brew using this method rather than straight honey step feeding and see what you come up with because I have not heard of anyone else making mead in this exact way before. It would be interesting to see if it works for others as well as it does for me.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I wouldn't call that step feeding really though. Interesting idea, not sure what real difference it makes as the potential alcohol is the same in the original and the addition.

[@ravencrovax]

@@CitySteadingBrews One point I just realized might be important that I didn't have in the original post is that I will usually mix the honey and water up to an original SG of about 1.138. At least that is my target for brews that I do like this. When fermented to dry, that would give an abv of about 15-17%. I think it works because you are still selectively brewing with the most alcohol tolerant yeast as the concentration of alcohol gets higher and higher. By adding more of the original mix, it increases the sugar concentration and lowers the alcohol concentration briefly allowing the yeast that have had to live through the high alcohol environment to relax and grow more easily. They then produce yeast with the ability to be even more alcohol tolerant and continue to consume the sugar in solution to an even higher abv. This is my theory anyway. As long as you have enough yeast thar can eat the sugar and reproduce before the alcohol concentration kills them off, they will continue to do so. At least that is what has happened in my expirence. If not true step feeding, I guess you could call my method a hybrid step feeding or something like that. It seems like both methods are after the same goal: higher abv with a product that is plesant to drink and tastes like mead. Also, if you decide to try this, I would recommend not going over 1.140 starting SG. It seems (in my expirence anyway) that even when pushing the yeast to a higher alcohol tolerance, there is an upper limit to their ability to survive high alcohol environments. Also, this is all just from my own expirence and knowledge of biology and chemistry. I have never heard of anyone using a similar method to the one I use and figured I would throw it out there if anyone else wanted to try it.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Yeah on second thought it is sort of step feeding because you're diluting along the way too. Glad it works for you!

[@beep-beepwatermelon4203]

How exciting to be here early! Who knew babies not letting me sleep could turn out to be a happy thing! I always look forward to your new uploads. Do you two have any children together? ( besides your cats)

[@CitySteadingBrews]

We do not.

[@laakins]

What a fun test! I learned that I don’t know so much . I’m just bumfuzzIed. I do think Derica’s idea of buffering during a step feed is interesting. Thanks for a very cool test!!

[@mountainman971]

My suggestion for the alcohol content not matching is the volume change of adding honey in steps. Unless you recalculated the volume each time you added honey, the difference would be because of dilution. I think the more accurate way to measure a step feed would be if you started with three quarters of a gallon of must, take that reading. At the end, take that reading and measure the new volume. And then adjust it for the dilution.

[@mountainman971]

Edit. No, you'd have to do it like you are. Just calculate the volume each time. Maybe weigh the honey out into a measuring container before adding it.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

We weighed it into the fermenter tared out, same thing.

[@Poughdg]

Great episode, great information, way too much worry about the math though i do understand why. Thank you

[@jubbe063]

I have a theory about the difference in taste. all in once, the honey has matured in taste throughout the test period. step feed, the honey is much younger, i.e. only 1/4 of the amount has fermented as long as all in once. and the last amount of honey has only matured in taste from the time you put it in until you tasted. One way to test this would be to use fruit juice so that the flavors stay the same for as long and the only variation is to add neutral sugar, i.e. sweet up one batch at a time and step feed the other batch.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

That is possible.

[@JonathanWagnerXanth]

Btw.. I love to see the TRBOS in the videos… it’s fun!

[@ronnydam5609]

This video is very validating for how I have been recording my results. I always add a tilda (~) to my ABV calculation results. i.e.- ~10%. The difference could be due to degoopifying. I'm not sure I used the right method for that as I'm not an expert at hex values.

[@Mongoose540]

I'm not a professional in any means but I think I may have an idea as to why the calculations are different. The SG system is based on a ratio of sugars to water, right? so that means at each point when you measured the SG the ratio of added sugar to water was changing. And since you had a different volume of water at each measurement, in favor of more sugars per volume/weight, it skewed the gravity higher. Thus causing the alcohol difference. I hope I explained it well.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

But... in the end, more gravity points were "spent" in one than the other. Are you suggesting that the rounding errors each time just added up? I mean, could be!

[@Mongoose540]

@@CitySteadingBrews I'm suggesting that since gravity is just a ratio of water to sugar and that the volumes on the step feed were changing. The errors are due to how the ratio worked. Like at the initial measurement you had .5 lb of honey and 48 oz of water the water to honey raito is 1 measurement with a certain number of sugars. Then the second measurement you had .75 lbs of honey and 48 oz of water. the volume is now different and the sugar to water ratio has changed for the new volume. EX: if you had .5 g of sugar in the first solution, it would be .5:1, now the solution would be .75:1.15. Its not a 1:1 ratio of difference when adding new honey to water for figuring out SG.

[@aliciamae85]

I like to think of gravity points as being at a volume. So SG/V. So the same number of points consumed in a 1 gallon batch creates half as much alcohol as the same move in gravity for a two gallon batch. This is more important to folks focused on distilling, as the focus is more on the alcohol content and not on the brew itself.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Could be Mongoose540.

[@RcLuke-lp1kg]

@@CitySteadingBrews mangoose540 explained it

[@gabrielmorais6871]

My gut reaction to the alcoholpercentage conundrum is twofold: 1. The formula (gravity points spent * 135) probably assumes we go from a water/sugar solution to a water/sugar/alcohol solution, which isn't the case when we step feed, since starting at the 2nd sugar addition we already have a water/sugar/alcohol solution. I assume that difference probably changes the math; 2. The yeast doesn't spend/eat "gravity points", it eats sugar and poops out alcohol+CO2. The CO2 escapes the solution, which decreases the mass of the must. Since the must doesn't really change volume, that decrease in mass also causes a decrease in density (that's the "gravity reading" we take) in a very uniform way, which is why we can use "gravity points" with reasonable reliability. But that math completely breaks down when the volume of the must changes with every sugar addition, making gravity readings more and more unreliable. Since gravity readings are basically a roundabout way of measuring loss of mass through fermentation, an interesting idea would be to repeat the experiment on a later date, but instead of checking density, checking mass (weight) directly and seeing how many grams each method loses throughout the process.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

It's been suggested the coefficient used for the step should have been the one for lower abv brews... that seems to make sense.

[@davidraney9744]

the difference in the specific gravity...is something that you noticed...dissolved gases. The more dissolved gases, the lower the gravity. The step feed you noticed was much gasier than the all. Once it completely degased...the specific gravity normalizes, that's why you have the same specific gravity for both.

[@pedrorocha9629]

Since you are using an estimation calculation, there is an intrinsic error in the formula, you already know that due to the diferrente values of the constant used in the formula. If you use the formula repeatedly, the error in the next equation will increase, which also applies to the inaccuracy of the gravity reading. Lets imagine in another situation, for example with you want to know the weight of a bag of beans, however the beans are packaged in packages with individual portions, and your scale measures only 1 decimal point ok, so you have like 10 individual packages of beans ranging from 1.8 oz to 2. 3 oz, and with you adding up all the individual values you and come up with something like 21.8oz, but when you weigh them all together you got something like 20.6oz; since which wiggle introduce the error of the scale, this error adds in witch step, but when you weigh all at once you only introduce the error once. Furthermore, the estimation formula with constant tends to overestimate the amount of alcohol in these smaller amounts, introducing yet another increase error. Sorry for the length of the answer but I hope I was informative

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I mostly agree, but it's more than that I think. We have the extra variable of readings below 1.000 giving the idea the same volume of fermentables produced more alcohol.

[@pedrorocha9629]

why mixtures of water and sugar or water and ethanol have a non-linear density curve can be explained by intramolecular interactions with their hydrogen bonds and wanderwals forces, but I don't think I'm a good enough teacher to be able to adequately synthesize and explain this in the comments

[@CitySteadingBrews]

It's actually because ethanol has a .790 SG and water has 1.000, so the higher the ABV, the more it will affect the final gravity reading.

[@pedrorocha9629]

@@CitySteadingBrews It's not just that, the final density read is not just a simple combination of the volume of ethanol times its density plus the volume of water times its density, if you observe the change in the final density of a mixture due to the concentration of ethanol you observed that it does not decay linearly, in reality it has a behavior that is not even exponential, but more similar to a bimodal curve. This is due to the predominant types of fluid interaction between water and alcohol, even disregarding the sugars present. the simple equation (og-fg)*131.25 is a simplification that assumes a linear behavior for the density of the mixture, and it is more imprecise with values ​​closer to 0 and further away from 30% alcohol. Why water interacts differently with alcohol and sugar is already providing a mixture of non-linear density depending on the concentrations is more complicated, and does not fit into the comments. But it is not a simple combination due to the fact that the densities are different. This inaccuracy due to the non-linearity of the density of the mixture, which is what you are perceiving as values ​​below 1.00, giving the impression of an increase in ethanol production, I may not have been able to make this clear beforehand. It is therefore a mixture of both effects, the imprecision of the estimate, especially in smaller quantities, with the propagation of the error of multiple measurements. Sorry if I've been too long-winded, but I have a bit of difficulty explaining things in text.

[@pedrorocha9629]

@@CitySteadingBrews I can perhaps send you some papers and demonstrations in the laboratory demonstrating this if you want. Or an email with the explanation and demonstration.

[@trevormartin8497]

Degoopified! Really cool experiment you two. I'm just guessing here, but I'm thinking since there was more honey in the "all" brew longer than the "step" brew, it has the better, aged flavor. Maybe step feeding, or adding things period, is more stressful to the yeast than everything being there in primary. Keep it up and uncover all the secrets!

[@MMAJBowman]

Great experiment. Love it

[@AirwolfCrazy]

From a brewing channel to the slingshot channel!

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Hey, we watch YT too! 😀👍

[@djkalianful]

I have to degoopify my life! Then I can live cleaner and healthier! Love the content, thanks for all you're hard work.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Me too!

[@sticknotfire]

Gave a big ol Thumbs up for TRBOS!!!

[@FredTepera]

Which has a greater effect on fruit flavors in a brew, targeting a lower ABV or using a specific yeast? Will either have an impact on the length of aging?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Lower abv will have more effect than yeast choice imo. Lower abv tends to need less age.

[@ruggend]

Awesome experiment! FYI, from what I can tell, the tolerance of S-04 is 10%, which might explain them both stopping at 1.018. Anyway, great video!

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Yeah... but we have seen it go far past that on a routine basis. Could be though!

[@AndrewNuttall]

Not sure if it helps, but my last step feed was using cheap-o Fleischmann's Active Dry yeast and was kept in an area where the temps ranged 68 at night to 71 during the day. In that environment a cup of white sugar took 4-ish days to go completely dry each time with daily swirling and "went to the moon" quite easily.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

How much did you end up adding in total?

[@AndrewNuttall]

@@CitySteadingBrews My reply keeps getting removed from KZbin because I'm trying to point you to my homebrew website. Final total sugars were 1 overripe pineapple, 3 cups brown sugar, 4.5 cups white sugar in 1 gallon.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

@AndrewNuttall web links are automatically removed.

[@stevenpatrick6806]

Great video - thanks!

[@ilchickentv340]

Not trying to answer your math question here, but it may be more accurate to use the hydrometer+refractometer method for step-feeds in the future.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Hmm. Maybe!

[@TheTriFyre]

My Spidey senses started tingling and I just wanted to hop on and make sure you guys are ok... Idk 🤷‍♂️ I can't explain it. Sending the best vibes I can ❤

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Yup, we're good. Thanks.

[@fuegomylego6279]

Does gas/ co2 level affect gravity in these tests? My assumption would be yes but I'm not sure of the scale of effect. Logic being that the co2 is light and would then affect how the gravity meter floats.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I'm sure it does a little.

[@OldFatNinja]

Since watching your early videos I took note of figuring out fortified ABV and used that to calculate new abv after a step feed. This does mean knowing the volume of honey being added, but if you do, the calculations work better. I use my abv, then add honey to get the new, lower abv. New sg reading and next sg reading give me the amount of new alcohol produced. Add that to my previous abv and I have a new abv. Rinse and repeat. I've been doing this for a while now. If I estimate your honey to be about 2.67oz per 1/4lb, I came out to your step feed being 10.82%. Considering margin of error, I think that's dang close to 10.26%

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Makes a lot of sense! Nice work!

[@APaganPerspective]

This might not be the vid to ask. but have you ever used food grade Bentonite. for clearing a mead

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Yes, twice. Not my favorite but it does work.

[@laakins]

You’re infographic at the 1:24 mark has the total honey for the Step at 2.5. Shouldn’t it be 1.25?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Yes, must've been a mistake. 2.5 would be a full gallon.

[@Dark_Reaper_86]

To answer the "more alcohol" thing in a different way, it's equivalent exchange. You have to give more of something that can be used in order to get more of what you're after. You can't make something from nothing, i.e. more fermentables more alcohol. It's like transmutation

[@CitySteadingBrews]

But... was the same amount of fermentables.

[@k.thomas295]

Where did you get the red bucket of sanitization? I looked for it in your links

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I think we actually got it at Lowe's years ago. They used to have them on Amazon too, but they've been sold out for years.

[@scotteinuis4991]

In watching the video I noticed you open a new jar of honey for the step. Honey is a natural product and can vary batch to batch. Perhaps that little bit of honey changed the flavor/ABV. Happy Brewing!

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Same type of honey purchased the same day... maybe? But not likely to be that much variation.

[@shenkyeirambo5601]

metrology: the science behind the units of measure, and the measuring of things. the end result of understanding any amount of it, is that all measurements are an agreed upon estimation of the exact value based on our knowledge of the tools used to measure, and the tools and machines used to make the measuring tools that were used to measure our things.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

lol, totally.

[@georgehardisty8948]

Do you think that since the step feed had less honey to start the yeast didn't reproduce as large of a colony as the all and so had to work harder for longer. In the all there was more honey so the yeast reproduced a larger colony and so didn't have to work as long?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I hadn't thought of that, but... not sure if the size of the colony is dependent on the food source or not. Don't really know!

[@BobsYourUncle429]

I like your comparisons, most of us would never notice a difference unless side by side. I might have another one for you. I am ready to finish a table grape wine by oaking. I was shopping LD Carlson looking for oak supplies and found oak spirals, oak chips, and oak essence. How do I decide which one will give the best flavor? It would be nice if oak essence could speed up the process with a realistic oak flavor, not a fake flavor. I do not want to ruin the brew with a bad flavor. Thank you for your consideration.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Spirals are probably the best choice of those but take more time. Chips extract more quickly and the essence is instant more or less. We use chunks of wood so they extract more slowly but... the quality is far better than the LD Carlson stuff: barrelcharwood.com/

[@mateschindler6473]

every time when you took a next step in the feeding, you deluted the brew (the already built up alcohol content). It is in the nature of density measurement, that you cannot seperate the previous state from now. The first OG and FG measurements are not correct for the next volume anymore, you should have calculated at every step the produced alcohol in volume or mass, adding all together, and after that making the density and % calculation, that should do the trick :) I will include the calculation example later on :) summerized you took the first step alcohol production, as it would have been for the whole volume, thats why it seems to be more.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Makes sense.

[@Jeff-i8v5d]

All v Step Feed Mead: The ALL IN MEAD finished at 5 week old, where as in the STEP FEED MEAD the additional step feeds were progressively younger. SO almost half of the step feed mead was younger than your ALL IN. About 3 weeks Younger. The last addition was only about 1week old.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I see that, but three weeks will not make as much difference as we had.

[@alexremes]

In regards to the gravity going under 1.000, I think it makes sense. The more alcohol gets produced, the more the original integrity of the neutral gravity water is compromised. An idea for an experiment: take 9oz of water, add 1oz of straight alcohol (rubbing or otherwise), and do a gravity reading. I think that should demonstrate how a 10%ABV solution would inherently fall below 1.000.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Oh, absolutely I agree!

[@JonathanWagnerXanth]

Due to carbon dioxide being acidic, does degassing raise the ph ? Can you test that at some point to show the difference?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Maybe a bit? Could try at some point.

[@mitakeet]

You may want to consider a 'colorimetric assay' of the ethanol level. It does require (for highest accuracy) a spectrophotometer, but it's entirely feasible to make a visual scale using known quantities of ethanol as standards and get a result that way. Also, there are very cheap (sub $100) spectrophotometers available; another KZbinr has done a number of vids comparing the utility. I'd provide links, but I think KZbin automatically deletes those posts.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Nah, it's not that important, lol.

[@BernardAnlageIV]

34:51 If it is the exact same amount of honey *from the same honey*, then the potential is exactly the same and I would not trust any mathematics that indicates that the one produced more alcohol than the other when the gravities are the same. Part of the issue is that you are simply adding the change in gravity. However, you aren't adding the honey to water, as you did in the beginning. You are adding it to a solution of water, honey (sugars, water, and a minute amount of other solids), and alcohol. You are also changing the ratios of this solution as you add more honey. Then, there is the difference that temperature has on gravity measurements. If memory serves, you have an Anton Paar device. If it has the option, you should check the ABV of each to see what it says. Most of the functions that homebrewers use to estimate alcohol produced are linear, but the relationship between the change in gravity and the alcohol produced is not linear. The UK uses a function that adjusts the constant based on the change in gravity. There are also nonlinear equations that can be used. Derica pointed out some of this at a later point in the video.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

First, we sent the device back. Didn't like it after using it a bit. Yes, the relationship is not linear, and we did use the same honey for all of it. At the end of the day, it highlights the fact that ABV is just estimation.

[@arghapirate2427]

Does any of you have experience with Yacon fruit as a backsweetener? I want to add more sweetness to my bochet, but I don't want to add more fermentables. Cheers!

[@CitySteadingBrews]

If it contains sugars, it will ferment. Sorry, not really familiar with it other than just looking it up.

[@arghapirate2427]

@@CitySteadingBrews Chatgtp fructo-oligosaccharides in yacon are non-fermentable by yeast due to their complex structure, which yeast enzymes cannot break down. This makes yacon an ideal sweetener for beverages where additional fermentation is unwanted.

[@arghapirate2427]

It might be something for Brian since it''s diabetic friendly.

[@scotteinuis4991]

9 to 11 percent alcohol tolerance yeast i am not surprised it didn't go dry. Happy Brewing!

[@CitySteadingBrews]

That wasn't really the point though... they taste different.

[@dhudach]

It's good that you sanitize between steps, it's a good habit. But it can be inconvenient - lots of busy work. Have you considered one of those degoopify vessels? It does make things easier. I've seen them on Amazon. I think it's worth the price if you are working with more than one batch at a time.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

No idea what you mean 😀

[@dhudach]

@@CitySteadingBrews 8:58 in the video. Just playing the game ....

[@qdmc12]

You may be onto something with stalled ferments being related to pH, though. I've read that brews with higher amounts of fructose produce more acetic acid versus those with more glucose.

[@AndrewNuttall]

The 10 points of difference is just rounding errors and measuring errors. When you look at the hydrometer you could be off by 1/2 a point each time. Additionally hydrometers change their reading slightly based on room temperature, was your room exactly the same each day? The temp of the sanitizer the same or how long you handled the tube the same? Oh and the room temperature seems to affect the reading differently as you move away from 1.000, so warm alcohol can affect the measurement differently then warm water. Add in any errors in weight measurement of the honey additions and all of a sudden 10 points of difference is in the realm of reasonable. Also since your ALL batch took so long in your environment, it essentially ended up being a step feed anyway since you did stir it up each time. 😄

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I agree with all of that, lol, except the all being step fed... I get what you're saying but, the honey was dissolved at the beginning and no more as added. Stirring is pretty normal and degassing is routine during fermentation so I wouldn't say that makes it a step feed. All the rest? Totally.

[@MrBPC76]

As we say in the Nuclear Navy... It's within the accuracies of the analysis. Plus/minus 2% seems pretty close using the wide ranging estimations that you always do

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Yup!

[@gcourtjr]

Do you still have your fancy electronic ABV testing device? Would be interesting to see if they read the same.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Nope, gave it back. Didn't really like it after a bit of use!

[@davidmaynard6190]

Great Video !!!!!

[@Dallen9]

You wouldn't think it, but just like how some people can't rub their belly and pat their head at the same time there are also people who can't walk and chew anything really. though they're not directly related they are similar in nature as to why. I have known people who could rub their belly and pat their head but couldn't walk and chew bubble gum. Knew people who couldn't do either and knew people who could do both.

[@wpewingman5135]

In quite a few of your videos, you mentioned using spirits in the airlock. Does it matter what spirit you use?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Not really, but... vodka is neutral so if it ended up in the brew it wouldn't really affect flavor.

[@wpewingman5135]

Awesome, thanks! I started my first ever 1 gallon batch of mead Wednesday. I went with a traditional mead to keep it simple. The original gravity reading was 1.110. I just took another reading and it’s at 1.082. I also switched the liquid in the airlock from water to 80 proof vodka. And yes, I sanitized everything before I started and before I took the gravity readings and changed to vodka in the airlock. I’m glad that I have a second airlock to do that fairly quickly so that it can get back to the fermentation process.

[@wpewingman5135]

Had a thought: if I was wanting to make a Strawberry Peppermint mead in time for Christmas, could I just make a Strawberry mead and then fortify it with Peppermint Schnapps? If so, how much of the two would you suggest using? I would more than likely use 3 lb of honey.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

@wpewingman5135 since I haven't used peppermint schnapps, I couldn't even guess. Add to taste is the best I can say. For berries, at least 3 lbs per gallon is a typical starting point. You will be hard pressed to have this ready for this Christmas though.

[@wpewingman5135]

@ at least I would have some aged for Christmas next year 🙂

[@osseywildborn8128]

Out of curiosity do you guys have a book or list of recipes you have tried over the years?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

We are working on a book (slowly) but otherwise we are a KZbin channel with hundreds of recipe videos 😀

[@Cutright628]

I’ve done both and my step feed is probably my favorite mead I’ve done next to the Viking blood and tea mead

[@Lego70001]

Odd question I think...can I use crystalized honey for making mead? I have about 3 gallons that has crystalized and want to use it if possible. $60 per gallon new here so,....

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Definitely. Just takes a bit more work to mix!

[@Miekkajakunnia]

i found Degassing also helps in Flocculation.

[@leongries5025]

Dont tell my you like jörg sprave i think he is one of the best german youtuber 😂 love him ❤

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Of course! Haven't watched in a while but loved his slingshot videos.

[@Erowens98]

If you buy honey in those soft plastic "refill" bags its much easier to squeeze out the last few drops.

[@Tj-50mag]

Well my Degoopifying theory on the math is probably too simple to be a viable reason but I think of decimal places, more decimal places with more numbers being added up before multiplying has always given me a different result - maybe I'm just bad at math lol. Also I have made over 20 batches of 5 gallon meads as a background which have turned out plenty good enough to drink, I have a simple traditional recipe that I can duplicate which always wanted to stop at 1.020 after 4-6 weeks (sometimes 8 weeks - was going for 100% natural honey without adding nutrients), I noticed that step feeding solely yeast nutrient powder (fermaid K - 1tsp every 2 days - 3 times) to this recipe made it ferment faster (4 weeks) and dryer to 1.002. Obviously the flavor changed due to the gravity but both had the same potential with 3lbs honey per gallon. I'm curious if doing the same experiment as this video with solely step feeding yeast nutrient powder and ending at the same gravity would be possible. wink-wink nudge-nudge

[@cinnamonrollypoly]

I cleaned my tub a few days ago. Does that count as degooping?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Erm... maybe?

[@GermanBrew]

I think because of the alcohol in the stepfeed the reading is every time a little wrong. And the wrong readings add up to this over 2% But it’s a nice experiment. I think I just will add all the honey up to my 1.110. and when I’m to dry I will add a little at the end

[@LawlissLanterns]

Hey guys. I don't work with alcohol per se, but I am a chemist. I do have a theory. You always say to use 131.25 for smaller changes in gravity. I think that since you are using smaller amounts the 131.25 should be used for each. I did the math and got 11.3% for the step feed. So it doesn't account for the difference... just something to consider. Thanks for another really intriguing video!! Btw my calculator had to be degoopified...

[@LawlissLanterns]

I hadn't thought of the differences in volume either... add these two issues together, you may end up with a tighter spread.

[@erikdoedens8064]

Also remember that every measurement you make has an error. The hydrometer i have has an scale of 0,002. In the step mead, you make this error 4 times vs the 1 time you make the error in all in one map. This might also be a part of the puzzle

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I say 131.25 for lower ABV brews.... hadn't thought of it that way here.

[@LawlissLanterns]

Right, each step is like a small brew. Or that's my thinking... i know it adds up.. but... ​@@CitySteadingBrews

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Makes more sense than a lot of what I've seen so far!

[@cerescop]

Get a proofing hydrometer to accurately get an alcohol level for the finished product.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

We have one and they do not work for anything with sugars or less than 30% abv.

[@JerseyfreshXx]

I have a brew that’s done fermenting, but has a slight vinigar smell, is it possible to save it? Or should I dump it:( it was my first brew so I’m not surprised

[@CitySteadingBrews]

It may just be very dry. Vinegar isn't dangerous and some people really enjoy sours so... if you try it and like it, you can always pasteurize and if needed sweeten to taste.

[@JerseyfreshXx]

@@CitySteadingBrews it tastes great after fermentation, then I had the bright idea of adding orange slices in during secondary, that’s when the off flavors showed up:( I’ll try sweeting it up, thank for the help!

[@Arianovan]

@@JerseyfreshXx Did you use orange slices or orange peels? When it comes to citrus they often don't add the whole fruit, instead they use the peel/zest to get at the oils which do a better job of imparting the flavor(I used to bake commercially, and this holds true for that as well). If you sliced up an orange (peel and all) and added that you might be getting some bitter flavors from the pith as well? With back sweetening like they said and Aging (time heals all brews) hopefully you'll come out with something you enjoy. Best of luck! You can always use it for cooking too so its not a total waste.

[@brucesibley5365]

Can you let them sit in the primaries for a couple of months and let them become more degoopified and see how they test then?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I think we're going to test them in a year.

[@deenottelling8492]

My question would be if the math for low abv would be more beneficial when dealing with step feeds?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Someone suggested that and it does make sense!

[@j.evoness]

The taste difference, may be more acid based extraction. In the 'All' you had a acidity drop of approximately 1 pH, while the 'Step' was closer to 2 points from start to finish. So the 'All' had a more consistent drop extracting flavours at a consistent time and level of pH, while the 'Srep' started at at a consistent level until you add more honey changing the pH rapidly at each point, thus extracted flavours at different phs, not a consistent pH drop. But it just a theory. As for the abv I need my brain degoopifed.

[@ScottBirdwell-q5d]

You seem surprised that you were only able to squeeze 10.25% ABV from the step addition & All-at-once meads. Fermentis lists the alcohol tolerance for Safale S-04 at 9 - 11%, so you are right in the middle of the range. Wine yeast strains would have likely gone dry on both as they can generally easily handle 13 - 18%, depending upon strain & available nutrients.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I've seen this yeast go past 12% many times.

[@Gentlemangamer85]

You should pasturise and send off 2 small samples to a lab and check the ABV that should be interesting 🤔

[@togetherrising6563]

Hi Brian and Derica! Hope you've been well!

[@derrickbooth1477]

Best thing to compare is a gravity reading from a commercial vs a home brew to see the different

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Maybe I don't understand your comment... how does that explain the difference?

[@dylanfeltz5587]

So I think I can help with two things that happened here. The recommendation for double pitching yeast for gravities of 1.065 is really helpful when using beer yeast in particular. Beer yeast isn't as aggressive as wine yeast. Beer mash tends to be a much more nutrient and simple sugar rich environment. The second thing is about the ABV calculations. From my understanding, the reason you have two different abv, is because you used a number under 1, prior to the final addition of honey. There is a 1.31% difference between 1 and .990. I think this experiment got weird for you two because normally step feeding is used to make Sack Meads. Now, I want to try this experiment, but try to max out a yeast like EC-1118 to see what kind of difference it would make.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

But... are not final gravity readings lower than 1.000 still relevant? I mean ethanol is 0.790 and water is 1.000, so, depending on the ethanol content, it could easily be below 1.000.

[@dylanfeltz5587]

The readings are still relevant, it's telling that you are now working with alcohol instead of water, but the reality is, you are still just adding honey to water, even in the presence of alcohol.

[@johnherron3961]

Very...interesting. 🧐❤

[@sebasti3n]

I just think the hydrometer is too approximate. It's your eye against a not too precise instrument. Add to this the fact that the mixing could be uneven at every step. It's like trying to calculate chaos. You base a calculation on an imprecise measurement. I believe that explains it.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

That's part of it at the very least most certainly!

[@jakematthews6982]

I think the difference came in with the difference in volume at the beginning and the volume increased on the step feed whereas the volume stayed the same throughout primary fermentation in the front loaded mead. That variance wouldn’t be much, but that shows in the result. So I think the concentration of the honey changed over time due to the volume increase through the step feed process.

[@imconnorbro2866]

Would love to see warm fermentation vs slow and cold

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Not really a thing we are set up to test.

[@imconnorbro2866]

@@CitySteadingBrews no worries 😊 love seeing these experiments, keep it up!

[@gregvaughntx]

You didn't get more alcohol. The "v" in ABV is volume. Your initial measurements from the Step batch was a lower volume, and different after each feed. I would approximate the 3/4 lb of honey added in total to be about a cup (8 fluid ounces) which is a significant portion of the 48 oz total.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I'm listening... but how did it "seem" to use up more gravity points? Specific gravity is irrelevant to volume...

[@gregvaughntx]

Ah, I commented too soon. You circled back. If the Step consumed 10 points more of gravity, then somehow you added more honey. Perhaps the particular batch of honey was a little sweeter per oz., or you had slight measurement inaccuracy in the gravity or weight of honey. The scale itself will have some inherent +/- accuracy, probably in fine print on the bottom.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Same honey used throughout.

[@gregvaughntx]

OK. I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, but drawing upon my experimental physics education. I'm coming to the same conclusion as you. Given the instruments and conditions of homebrewing, we're fooling ourselves that we're ever closer than 1-2% on the ABV. Hydrometers are only marked in 2 "point" increments and the rule-of-thumb I recall from school was you estimate by eye to half the smallest increment, but then that is also your margin of error -- so we should only consider a gravity reading as +/- 1 point. You used more measurements for the Step calculation which would have compounded any inaccuracy. But overall, I don't really think you're so far off to have an ABV mystery that needs solving.

[@robertsilva3781]

Wouldn't the step feed having a lower volume at the beginning and then adding volume with each step feed create this issue?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

We added 48 ounces of water and 1.25 lbs of honey to both, one all up front, the other over time.

[@robertsilva3781]

@@CitySteadingBrews I know everything was equal at the end but for some reason I'm thinking the changing of volume with each step feed could affect the gravity readings along the way.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Not sure. Thanks for the input though.

[@lynnschell636]

Or maybe as well, how much of the yeast was dead in 1 scoop vs the other. Maybe something to think about. Don't think that's truelly measurable. But idk.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

The amount of yeast does not actually change the amount of alcohol created.

[@peterkralt2478]

@@CitySteadingBrews No but the amount of it being in suspention might effect the inbetween gravity readings of the stepfeed leading to a small deviation in gravity at the same alcohol content, also the all had all the nonfermentables like proteins and minarals in it all the time while in the stepfeed these were also stepfed in to the mix only to reach the same level at the very end when everything is added and the brews are cleared from most nonfermentable stuf and yeast in suspention.

[@helloskymoon]

Can i ask somethibgbout of context My raw honey always gas-es, every day the bottle will become round and i must open the lid to let the gas out or it will explode in 2 days But your raw honey always clean and seem no gas Why my raw honey always produce gas everyday Will gas-es honey affect the fermentation?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

That sounds like it's fermenting.

[@helloskymoon]

​@@CitySteadingBrewswill it affect the mead fermentation proces if the honey alredy fermenting before i add water yeast and nutrient?

[@CitySteadingBrews]

I would think so. It's already becoming mead right now.

[@qdmc12]

"let me show you it's features!" That's...a different show...

[@beep-beepwatermelon4203]

I’m just a homebrewer, but I noticed that when you were calculating the ABV you added up all of the points for the step feed and then multiplied it by the same coefficient as the all. It seems to me that you should be calculating the ABV for the step feed based on two different coefficient because of the dilution levels.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Someone else suggested that too.... makes sense!

[@colinmackay92]

I cant wait to make my next brew so I can degoopify!

[@JonathanWagnerXanth]

Degoopified!!! Degoopified!!! Degoopified!!! Degoopified!!!

[@VincentHarrydragonphire]

I am no expert on these things but if I were to take a logical guess as to why the math is different, it would be similar to you being able to clear your dinner plate. It's easier to eat all the food on your plate if you eat only once a day versus sitting down to a Thanksgiving dinner table.

[@VincentHarrydragonphire]

A thought to this comparison, there is attenuation and my understanding is that yeast consume different types of sugar molecules in a particular order. So the gravity of the All was based on mostly on non-fermentable sugars left over where the gravity of the Step was from the unfermented honey (since they hit their tolerance and stopped fermenting). Basically, the All couldn't eat desert but the Step got too full to eat an entire meal.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Attenuation is mostly a beer thing as sugar and honey are more or less fully fermentable.

[@sagetx]

1:25. Whoops! Should read totaling 1.25 lbs on the step feed. But you said it right. There's that. 😅

[@BusinessEnglishSuccess]

The numbers are different because ethanol has a lower SG than water. For me, if you start with the same ingredients and end up with the same SG, they're the same.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

But... they don't come out the same.

[@BusinessEnglishSuccess]

@@CitySteadingBrews when all the sugar ferments out completely, the SG is 99x, not 1000. The 994(?) reading is due to the alcohol present. As you said, it's complicated. For me personally, the subjective end result is more important than the numbers. Taste beats maths 🙂

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Yup, this was really about flavor differences but... people (myself included) really latched on to the alcohol difference that I am pretty convinced isn't even there.

[@pidlid1970]

Alcohol tolerance according to Fermentis is 9-11%, is this a probable reason why they stopped at 1.018.

[@CitySteadingBrews]

Perhaps. We have seen that yeast go to 14% though.

[@pidlid1970]

@@CitySteadingBrews Maybe this batch learned to read!!!😂😂