Adjusting a subwoofer

[@yannisspyrakis6098]

Thanks Paul for making me understand how to set up the sub. Had a very very hard time understanding how to adjust the sub sound to pop up behind the speakers and also airy, at the same time, the volume is resolved at its best by ear indeed. Also need to feel the sound, very important. :) Oh by the way I have an REL T9x sub! (Thank god I didn’t finally sold it because I had enough of my wrong adjustments) 😊 Keep it up Paul Thank you

[@medonk12rs]

As Paul recommends: Get two subwoofers, not only 1. it will make the setup much easier in my (limited) experience -- just put them next to the speakers (either inside or outside) and start experimenting with crossover and gain. Contrary to Paul's advice I recently found a way to quickly get the sound I want by setting a) setting crossover freq to MAX, gain to ZERO b) now carefully rise the gain, until a satisfying amount of base is there c) try out: reduce crossover. if needed, take up gain at the same time. Works really well with my RELs.

[@Harald_Reindl]

Why should I place the subwoofers near the main? You lose the advantage of placing it where it best works - place it nearfield behind your listening place and adjust volume and timing with a DSP! Less energy (room modes, vibration of furniture)

[@medonk12rs]

​@@Harald_Reindl not saying that YOU have to put them near the main speakers. It just works fine for me. YMMV. IMHO getting two subs instead of just one greatly improves "robustness" of the bass presentation. While it is true that sources of low frequencies are not as easy to locate as those of higher frequencies, I still much prefer the sound of a 2.2 setup compared to a 2.1 setup. Tried both. Fully agree to your DSP suggestion regarding room modes. 👍

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@medonk12rs first comes the room and long after that got fixed the rest

[@medonk12rs]

@@Harald_Reindl Well, that's one strategy. :-) Glad it works for you! Cheers

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@medonk12rs that's the only strategy for good sound - as long as you have sharp and long reverbs it don't matter what speakers and gear you place into a for music unusable room

[@ohjoy40]

Paul gives some good advice here. It is not a simple process, requires some patience and experimentation. I totally agree that ideally you want two subwoofers as bass is stereo. You will notice that it shrinks the soundstage width with only one subwoofer. Paul is absolutely correct in that you dont want to hear subwoofers and your attention being drawn to them. They are just there to augment the low end of the main speakers. Now I take a little different approach to setup and calibration. Placement is critical and takes both some playing with calibration settings and placement. The goal of adjusting the cross-over point is to set it where it blends with the main speakers. To high a setting and it will overemphasis the upper bass region, to low and it will not have a bass that is linear and coherent. So I first play with the crossover point. Put the volume at a level where you just start to hear the subwoofer and adjust the cross-over so you get it to blend best with the main speakers. Then adjust the level, where you just stop to hear there is a subwoofer in the system. Placement of the subwoofer again needs to be played with to get the balance of bass across all bass frequency's. Closer to the walls give you more low bass but generally gives you less detail in bass as it overemphasizes the low bass. You want it so you can hear all bass frequency's evenly. So both distance from back wall and distance apart need to be adjusted to get the right bass detail and soundstaging.

[@Harald_Reindl]

Bass below 60 Hz isn't stereo

Hi! Honest question: can a system output correctly stereo (lef and right) sub-low frequencies to a pair of subwoofers?

[@Harald_Reindl]

@ bass below 60 Hz isn't directional at all

@@Harald_Reindl Thanks

[@finnharreidsson5862]

4:40 does that mean doing it by ear is better than rew/umik1 then? Doing equal SPL dB for speakers and sub, sweeping for a somewhat flat crossover etc.

[@Skye_the_toller]

may be just a step further... 1) at what point all the sub as to be the same or how can we add one as companies change their model 2) How much I have to relatively paid for those??? So great video you made! Thanks! (From Canada!)

[@saikatbose8370]

Just keep the subwoofers in the lfe mode activ and you get that balanced output even in your hiff setup.

[@ity1311]

Hello paul and thank you for the knowledge you are distributing for all us audiophiles. I don't get your explanation on puting the subwoofer in your sweet spot and listen to it from the speakers wall in order to find the right spot to place it. It doesn't sound logical because the room acoustic is totaly difrent when you flip the sides. Can you please refer to that issue? Thanks allot 🙏

[@marcbegine]

As always perfectly explained! Bravo Paul ( little remark, the vinyl records should be stacked perfectly vertical)😎

[@stonefree1911]

I like that wall. is that an acoustic design?

[@morbidmanmusic]

you get points for having the Yes Album.

[@Bob-pd9ge]

Simple. ALL knobs to the Right! 😊

[@egasimanungkalit3372]

Hi Paul, how to connect 2 subwoofer to 1 power amp, so I get the stereo subwoofer that you have mentioned before?

[@workonesabs]

I use a DSSpeaker Antimode. essential really if you want the sub woofer set up correctly.

[@zackw4941]

I like to use test tones to see where the peaks and nulls are and where the speakers roll off. You don't need anything fancy, you can use an online tone generator. Wherever the main speakers start to roll off, start there with the subs' crossover. Then start turning up the subs' volume until you get a pretty flat response. Alternatively, start high and turn down the sub volume until the police stop showing up. Whichever suits your listening preferences. Either way, you may fine tune it once you start playing music. However, I think it's important to start with a more scientific base line, (no pun intended) or else you might wind up chasing your tail for a while from song to song.

[@Harald_Reindl]

People with brain using a calibrated microphone and REW in 2022 - your ears are not trustable at all

[@zackw4941]

@@Harald_Reindl Right or wrong, most two channel hifi systems don't use DSP. I agree that the human ear isn't a great scientific instrument.. However I think it's good enough to sort out frequency response going one cycle at a time below 100hz. All you're listening for at that point is the relative volume that you'll be perceiving anyway when you listen to music. Unless of course, you don't actually listen to music because you don't trust your ears ;)

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@zackw4941 that's why smart people don't buy crap without DSP - you can't trust your ears and you don't know how something is supposed to sound until you are finished and your measured frequency response is flat

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@zackw4941 the problem with your ears and adjust by music is that some records are lack bass and some have too much -, you can't win that idiotic game with your ears unless you limit your music library - won't work with mine of 100k tracks from 2000 artists over 50 genres and 8 decades

[@zackw4941]

@@Harald_Reindl You didn't read what I said then, either time.

[@grumpy9478]

back in the last century (pre dsp, btw), when I was in the audio biz /spkr division, we began playing around w/ subs... driver selection (xovr design / eng / production), enclosure design, instrumentation & integration... the whole bit. I am more the "qualt" & my then partner (a physicist-audiophile who could engineer too) more the "quant" - but neither dogmatic about these things. I had the "reference" listening space - a big living rm that happened to be very close to golden ratio dimensions (for whatever that's worth) - + a long hallway to another open area. after a few years we eventually focused on biamped mains (twin 8" woofers in a separate box under a proprietary mid & ribbon tweeter) that worked out nicely, & thence to pursue integrating to 10/12/15" subs. our intent was to achieve a highly resolving "musical" system - one that was stable & forgiving enough to not require exotically expensive upstream components (of course!), yet would pay-off if folks had that kinda taste & $$$s. as Paul ceaselessly points out... in spkrs, it's all about the trade-offs. we did various subs for our own edification & to customer interests. our main system was quick & we noted that a "quick" sub integrated best ("musically" & in measurements - bear in mind we were tri-amping too... lotsa factors, eh?). yet, quickness @ low freq was another challenge... we liked the air motion & stable response of large drivers (w/ cast frames & large magnets), but the speed of the smaller ones (not to mention, the timbral features of different cone materials, shapes & surface areas - let's leave that issue aside). the upshot is I found that a stereo pair of subs, one a simple 3rd order direct-radiator (10") & the other a 12" 6th order bandpass (delivering down to 18 Hz) delivered satisfying results - after considerable tuning (Dahlquist LP-1 helped) & furniture-moving. acoustic space varies so much, why not the subs? anyway, my quant partner would measure & provide feedback. "not too awful" such that a bottle of wine appeared was considered acceptable success. long out of the biz, but I still debate w/ him that the very last decision in technical state-of-the-art work is a non-quantitative one. experimentation - what fun!

[@jareknowak8712]

I read it all, it was worth it. What was the name of your company? Fast = closed box.

[@kaypee1972]

Funny part of your post is that you use an abbreviation of room to rm. 😂

[@grumpy9478]

@@kaypee1972 i do things like that to entertain myself... glad you enjoyed it 2.

[@erict.35]

I can’t decide what to think. Is it just a product of your fantasy or it actually happened somehow?

[@grumpy9478]

@@erict.35 my products are actual. years ago, I might've wondered what makes a post fantastic, but no longer. good luck!

[@blekenbleu]

Have you discussed the system on which you're lounging in a previous video?

[@artyfhartie2269]

You need to turn the volume on the sub a bit while you are adjusting the frequency cut off on the sub so you can hear what you are doing. Needless to say that you need to turn the volume on the AVR, amp or pre amp and power amp as well. Easy peasy.

[@Charles7541]

It is IMO, near impossible to properly integrate a sub with larger tower speakers without the use of bass management on the towers themselves. Let me explain; let's assume the tower has a port tuning of around 50hz. Below this point, the bass emitting from the port is 180 degrees out of phase with the base leaving the cone of the tower's drivers (not to mention the phase shift associated with ported speakers). Which do you allign the sub to? How can you properly enhance one without cancelling the other? Now add room peaks and nulls into the mix and you have a nightmare of a mess below 40hz. No matter how much I've tried, it never seems to sound right. To each their own though.

[@Harald_Reindl]

Proper DSPs have no problems with such long solved issues and it's completely irrelevant how large your tower speakers are - you handle them in a 2.1 setup identical to bookshelf speakers

[@jackheinemann8780]

Yes what you are saying is true, but your forgetting the part about how the two out of phase signals interact with eachother, generally via the rear wall, and combine to create ONE 'in phase' signal that you hear.

[@garyroman3196]

anyone know what speakers are shown in this video?

[@Nihilist13]

Please explain how to set phase with stereo subs.

[@hoobsgroove]

something that's not talked about is delay with your main speakers, this can easily be achieved by placing a 0.5 ohm non inductive resistor like an SMD 50watt connected, form your amp to your main speaker. give you a better time alignment

[@No_Limits_411]

I find it confusing suggesting setting the frequency cutoff by ear BEFORE you adjust the gain. I feel like the subwoofer "disappearing" has more to do with the gain. I think it is a pickle cause the two settings affect each other. You just need to fiddle with them.

[@ThinkingBetter]

It doesn’t make sense to me to make the CD version from the DSD version as that means TWO lossy transcoding procedures from DXD to DSD to CD. It is better to just make a CD version from the DXD version as you don’t change the wave form coding but just sample rate convert the audio data.

[@spacemissing]

A well adjusted subwoofer will be most noticeable by its absence if it is shut off.

[@josefbuckland]

A real time analyzer can be a wonderful investment.

[@jackheinemann8780]

Learn to identify and trust what your ears are hearing, then learn what it means in the context of tuning a system

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@jackheinemann8780 you simply can't trust your ears - the only thing you can trust are measurements

[@skularatna8136]

I used to have 2 subwoofers thinking I needed them due to many articles stating they were needed. Turns out I don’t. I noticed no difference when I removed mine and what I thought was the subs improving my bass was just a placebo. big old vintage speakers big cabinet, paper cone etc. it can move enough air to give exceptional bass.

[@justinromang9113]

thx

[@zootook3422]

I was trying to cheat by using an old home theatre sub but realised that the cross over started way to high at 50Hz and my speakers goes down to 35Hz. Not a good match. Lesson learned - Sub and LFE is not the same.

[@Harald_Reindl]

And? Anything below 60 Hz belongs to the subwoofer no matter which main speakers

[@JNElectrics]

Good explanation. I see

[@Peter56Persson]

Thank You!

[@NosEL34]

Without DSP's or at least PEQ's I don't know how people integrate a decent sounding sub. I have so much room gain that I can turn my sub volume as high as I want and it never comes from the sub position..it's like the surrounding walls are one big subwoofer lol

[@Harald_Reindl]

Room acoustics - the DSP is only there to fix what room treatment leaves

[@lonniefarmer7067]

Thanks!

[@stevenoconnor5693]

Good video

[@Ricky-cl5bu]

Don’t like subs with stereo setup , maybe on very small bookshelf speakers, only my opinion

[@digggerrjones7345]

The Magnat RV-3 *is not* a speaker!!! How daft can you be?

[@jareknowak8712]

Q: How to properly tune the sub to stereo? A: Sell loudspeakers. Buy such speakers that the sub is not needed. Thank You All in advance, for all the likes :)

[@Xanadu1510AE]

First buy the Audiophiles Guide! 🤓🤓🤓

[@LuxAudio389]

I'd buy the FR30'S first and then save up for the Audiophile's Guide with the SACD. 👹

[@laurelhardy4064]

As far as the volume goes, there's no ONE perfect volume setting, every recording is different, I adjust the volume on the sub for every recording.

[@Harald_Reindl]

Lol

[@jawadtaheri4989]

Same here ... Got floorstanders so dnt need a sub most of the time...only heavy metal iron maiden types do really shine with a sub

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@jawadtaheri4989 "only heavy metal iron maiden types do really shine with a sub" is pure nonsense - besides that my 23k Heavy Metal tracks most are lacking proper bass it's in genereal nosense - everything gains from a better bass quality and floorstands NEVER can achieve the same in most rooms - the benefit of a subwoofer is the placing - you must not hear it's existence at all wehn done right

[@mjot2360]

The lower the crossover setting the better. New Rel subs have the ability to cross down to 20Hz so they work with full range speakers.

[@Stan_the_Belgian]

20 hz crossover is too low imo, even the ps speakers don't go that low. Also you need a cross over slope, there will be none

[@mjot2360]

@@Stan_the_Belgian there is a slope built in. When set to 20HZ they still play well above 20HZ, just not as loud. Completely adjustable by ear though.

[@alexandre7634]

If it works... There's no rules 🤣✌️

[@Harald_Reindl]

Nonsense - when you have clue about room acoustics you want anything below 60 Hz handled by a subwoofer with a DSP

[@mjot2360]

@@Harald_Reindl maybe with one subwoofer but that's why I have two. At the end of the day, if you know how to properly setup a subwoofer you don't need DSP. It's just a crutch for the less informed audiophile.

[@compactdiscshavepitsandlan372]

The trolls will be here soon.

[@davidfromamerica1871]

How do I hook up my subwoofer to my $20.00 Bluetooth speaker???

[@dangerzone007]

Sorry I'm late.

[@LuxAudio389]

Time to clock in👹

[@davidfromamerica1871]

@@dangerzone007 There is a $20.00 late fee..

[@LuxAudio389]

@@davidfromamerica1871 just lay the subwoofer cable(cheapest one possible) over the Bluetooth antenna at a 90 degree angle. Then burn your copy of the Audiophile's Guide and SACD. 👹

[@wmdiem]

This sounds like terrible advice. The main consideration in setting a sub xover should not be the point you can localize the bass. Yes, if you can localize it, it is (way) too high. But the way the bass response blends with the main speakers' frequency response should be the principal consideration.

[@soundofbass6842]

As a basshead, I jokingly disapprove of this message.

[@renaissanceman7145]

First

[@polygamous1]

I never Understood WHY anyone with a good pair of speakers n a good AMP pre AMP that can handle really Low frequencies Needs sub woofers, WHY? my system is quite old the power amp is just over 20 plus Kilos power output 150 RMS into 4 oms on my mates oscilloscope when he last did some repairs, My speakers are the Original AR9s Not the ones with 2x 12 inch bass drivers one facing sideways but a 12 inch forwards facing n a 10 inch downwards facing 8 inch mid range tweeter n super tweeter ( had the ones with the side facing units but they where very hard to place) Frequency response Really Flat at minus 3 Decibels is 28 Herts ALL the bass I need want NO Boom Boom at ALL unlike nearly ALL subwoofers I heard n my amp is man enough to drive my speakers very well, now days modern power amps Cannot drive bass speakers well at all speakers lack real bass n many are forced to buy a separate amp n subwoofers to make up for the system's deficiencies so manufacturers have found a way to make up their money, cause comparing what I paid for my Amp pre Amp Years ago today u get "same" power for peanuts almost But its Not really the same unless you cough up more for subs n a sub amp, KEFs are the only other speakers I really like worse speakers I ever bought? Celestion Ditto 15s in the 70s rated at 20 to 20KHerts when the EU made a law speaker manufacturers Must give Some meaningful figures the Ditto 15s where Rated at 200 Herts at Minus 7.5 Decibels maybe at Minus 3DBs they wouldn't go lower than 500 Herts I hated them speakers so much you couldn't listen to them for more than few minutes at very low volumes

[@Harald_Reindl]

Because the best position for low frequency sources is never the same as for the main speakers - you audiofools need to realize that the room dictates the requirements

[@polygamous1]

@@Harald_Reindl The room makes a difference of course But still the 2 most important things in a Hi Fi is the quality of the transduces, without a good quality pair of speakers n a Good quality Cartridge/stylus you will never get a truly satisfying sound

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@polygamous1 the room is 50% of what you hear, so there are only two times 25% left

[@orronoco524]

Dont use subwoofer in stereo system please

[@Harald_Reindl]

Proper hardware has room-eq and time correction based on a microphone measurement

[@ity1311]

Hello paul and thank you for the knowledge you are distributing for all us audiophiles. I don't get your explanation on puting the subwoofer in your sweet spot and listen to it from the speakers wall in order to find the right spot to place it. It doesn't sound logical because the room acoustic is totaly difrent when you flip the sides. Can you please refer to that issue? Thanks allot 🙏