Advanced Bicycle Frame Geometry: Steering Speed, Weight Distribution, Tipping Angles

[@Cyclingabout]

CORONAVIRUS UPDATE ON ME AND MY SITUATION: I am currently in Mexico in a city called Aguascalientes. I arrived here after about a week without the internet to find that country borders closing around me. I had a few days to book a flight back home (Australia) but just couldn't bring myself to do it. While going home was perhaps the wisest decision, right now my eyes are so damn focussed on CYCLING all the way to Alaska. I don't really know what that means for the rest of the year. The situation could get so much worse, especially here in Mexico where people are not even getting tested for COVID-19 and are definitely not taking social isolation seriously. While the situation is so crazy and uncertain - know that I am very content here and am always focusing on the positives. In a lot of ways, travelling the WORLD by myself on my bicycle is literally the perfect preparation for weathering out this storm. My plan over the next 3-6 months is to focus 100% on making videos for you. That means my video content will be much more frequent (probably weekly), with a focus on bike tech and travel tips. I will also conduct 2-5 day adventures around the region I'm staying in, carrying all of my own food - and will, of course, share these adventures with you. As a result of needing extra support over the coming months, I've changed the rewards on my Patreon. This is to hopefully attract more supporters to actually make my filmmaking viable. I'm now offering your name in the credits of my documentary films, postcards from exotic parts of the world, access to the books I've written and private video calls to chat about everything bike gear and travel. www.patreon.com/cyclingabout If any of these rewards entice you, please know that your support will be going towards new camera gear (microphones + an action camera), as well as freeing up much more of my personal time. All the best from Mexico, Alee

[@superwag634]

Imagine, Australian government is giving $1,500 every two weeks if you have lost 30% of your income .due to the virus. The catch is that you need to be physically present in Australia. It would suck to be in Mexico. Best wishes

[@Cyclingabout]

@@superwag634 Keep in mind the cost of living in Australia is very high - that kind of money disappears quick!

[@dylanstandingalone]

@The Prospectors This. Also in some places people might not be so friendly to a cyclist if they find out you've been out of the country.

[@Cyclingabout]

​@The Prospectors I don't intend to leave until it's over. I've found a safe place to stay, so don't see why there will be any problems sticking around.

[@Cyclingabout]

@@hecjvaldez Cheers! I'll be cycling to Alaska before I go home. 👌🏼

[@showlowitsqueentlee2737]

Perhaps the highest quality bike nerding I've come across on KZbin. Tempted to watch it again and take notes.

[@Cyclingabout]

Cheers! Hopefully, during COVID-19 I'll have a lot more time to create some serious bike nerd content for the world (like nothing the internet has ever seen before)!

[@febbone]

Its really good! Also checkout Peak Torque he makes great videos about bike engineering

[@MW-ud8zp]

This is exactly the video I was looking for!

[@Tahydrahel]

I like, that the Roadies invented mountainbiking too. In Some years, they will have 160mm of travel and 800mm wide bars. :)

[@benridesbikes6975]

I didn't think I would want to nerd out over a trendy gravel bike in particular, but your delivery had me hooked and I learned a bunch! Awesome video mate. I love the blend of content your channel has.

[@graham4401]

Booger alert @ 8:02.

[@caperider1160]

This video was truly a helpful content for me. Thank you and stay healthy in the midst of this crazy pandemic.

[@Cyclingabout]

Thanks for the kind words! 🙏🏼

[@starsbyhum]

Dismissed the Hagar initially as a gimmick but your insight provided useful context in relation to my bike. I have a pretty slack rig and put a shorter stem on it recently and I love how it changed my bike. Now I know exactly why that compliments my longer top tube and slack head tube angle.

[@Cyclingabout]

I did the same thing as you! Fully dismissed it, then ran the numbers and was like "ohh, it's not that crazy after all". 😂

[@jefjabs]

and thats how the hardtail was born...

[@K1989L]

Soon there will be suspension too..

[@nirajshr]

excellent summary about pros and cons. more of these please. Stay safe out there!

[@himatic7]

Excellent explanation. Subscribed! (Industry vet of 30 years). I recently went your budget build route and it works. I wanted to experiment with a long TT, slakish head angle (71 deg. from memory) without committing time and cost of building a new frame. Looked at modern flat bar geometry and went ah-ha! Bought an Avanti INC 2 Urban in XL, and fitted drop bars, TRP Hylex brakes (this is a Gates Carbon / Alfine 8 bike) and 700*40 Kenda Flitridge Pro rubber. It's a heavy beast, but handles exactly how I want. Will replicate the frame in steel for an Alfine 11 I have sitting in the shed, and my poor man's Stoater will be born. One other benefit. When using a traditional HB bag, the bag sits behind the front contact patch. This is why French constructeurs preferred long TT, slack head, & short stems on their randonneurs.

[@CreativeFishDesignsCharlotte]

thank u for your work truly u need to do this again from todays frames its more relevant it helped me in my custom build

[@PRH123]

Very interesting bike, and such an informative analysis. Thank you. Reminds me a bit of the geometry of bikes in the early part of the last century, I had always assumed that they were still working things out, but maybe they knew what they we doing..!

[@strokyl]

This is the third video, I watch from you. They are excellent !

[@Cyclingabout]

Glad you like them!

[@alisali6305]

I would like to express my thanks and respect for the information you have given. you have a great channel. I wish you continued success.

[@ronitdebnath]

Immediately subscribed after 20 seconds. Amazing detail. Very good channel. I also have a bike channel. Only just started.

[@obscurerides]

11:05 sounded like a door opening. Scared me! Great video by the way. I’ve learned so much from watching this channel

[@arnpad1969]

Thank you for the knowledge. Very similar to my 2010 Lynskey Ridgeline, Fox 100mm travel fork, 50c Riddler tire and wide drop bar.

[@321bytor]

Do they make a Dave Lee Roth?

[@milesbgibbons]

I definitely prefer putting more weight when bike packing, in a place that I can control it, at the front end. So this bike would fit with that philosophy well I guess. F’ing great video mate, can hear and see the work you’ve done to distil what most probably takes people a good chunk of time to formulate before designing a new frame!

[@dilmurodavalbaev1392]

Am I right to understand that this geo sacrifices a bit of climbing ability and handling on flat terrain in order to be able to descend better? Don't we have MTBs for that kind of riding? BTW amazing analysis as always, Alee!

[@Cyclingabout]

Yeah, that's right, and a hardtail MTB is definitely the better bike for that purpose. But if I was only allowed one bike for sealed roads and steep dirt roads...

[@josh33172]

When I saw the number, my initial thought was "Okay this could work, but I have to imagine 68deg HTA would put it in it's sweetspot w/ 460mm bars and 50mm neg. rise stem" especially with the 428 a-to-c.

[@Grug86]

Fantastic video, so clear and informative. Thanks!

[@josemorenoporras7506]

This just make sense. Long and low works in any MTB discipline,it is a combination of things like you said. Road bikes have a very specific handling characteristic,but most of regular humans can´t use it. It is difficult and open roads are dangerous. So why design a bike to resemble a road bike while 99% of the time is used not to race to the limit? Those changes made bikes handling more understandable for anyone,more fun and fast at the end.

[@roadrider1100]

so the hager is great for those wanting to race single track on a suspensionless bike. On a bike packing bike I don't want to have to concentrate on weighting the front end on every corner. sometimes just pedaling is more fun

[@Cyclingabout]

It's marketed that way, but for typical gravel use - the numbers show that it will be the most stable gravel bike on any descent, and harder to go over the bars if you hit debris or a depression on the road thanks to that large endo angle.

[@thomasspotzl4240]

And there the Down Gravel Bike category is born.

[@jesuscruz836]

super informative

[@Archi2g]

Great video, I’ve corner balanced by car but never considered checking the weight distribution of my bikes. Might have to go through them all over lockdown.

[@Cyclingabout]

Perfect time to bike tinker!

[@trevorsgaragemusings]

I’ve never experienced an issue with my front wheel grip on climbs, but when gradients approach 12%+, Spitting gravel out the back when standing is almost always an issue.

[@Cyclingabout]

Are you riding a Chamois Hagar? The best antidote I've found to rear wheel spin is actually low gear ratios. If you can stay seated and pedal with a higher RPM - rather than standing with a lower RPM - you will put more weight on the rear tyre to increase the grip. 👍🏻

[@karlalvtorn5222]

An oval chainring will even out the pedalstrokes somewhat for more grip aswell.

[@8paolo96]

well, with a normal road bike you'll stasrt loosing front grip at gradients around 20%, 12 isn't even steep!

[@illgazillion]

Fantastic video….. thanks

[@thomashendron4356]

Thanks for the alternate bike which gives very similar number to the evil frame!!!

[@lovenottheworld5723]

A slack head angle adds geometric weight to the front wheel. Like it makes the front wheel dig in more so if you have skinny arms you can feel the wheel on the road better. A steep angle makes the front wheel disappear in a corner. That's what I think. It's good for girls who don't have much weight pressing down on the bars.

[@LordFata]

Great explanations on the geometry, learned quite a bit! But unless the flat geometry offers more comfort through flex I see no reason for this to be the go-to bike for many people. My Hook EXT is quite versatile with a 2.2 inch 650b set and a 28 mm 700c set, giving me 2 bikes essentially, using it on road rides as well as MTB and bikepacking. I accidentally rode some steep single track descents and regret trying a drop, fearing for my life. In those moments I wished for a dropper, straight handlebars and a more upright position. It never crossed my mind why anyone would want drop bars there.

[@Cyclingabout]

I personally prefer a bike that is a little more versatile in terms of wheel size too. And I agree, flat bars for rough singletrack... 100%!

[@frakafrocka]

Best vid on this bike.

[@XO43137]

It's a great looking bike.

[@Foxr6]

Another great video! You got a sub bro! Thanks!

[@thwood40]

If anybody can get thru this pandemic in a country like Mexico I think it's you, Alee. I'll definitely be following your life story in Mexico and hope you can ride it out w/o many endos, as it were. If you come thru Fort Collins, CO hit me up for a place to stay. I've got a bunch of space and good internet ;-) Cheers, mate!

[@Cyclingabout]

Cheers! I don't think it'll be a problem to weather the storm here, it's just a case of time! 🙏🏼

[@theadventurebiker]

Great video, man.

[@bobqzzi]

This is a really interesting video- excellent technical material. Not sure why lowering center of mass would make a bike more stable though-I'd think the opposite

[@ImAnEmergency]

I’ve wanted this for a while now especially because they’re a PNW brand, and this gives me technical justification for it

[@xuchenglin6256]

Fantastic! But about the budget section can you push the geometry further towards this bike by using a smaller rear wheel? Say 650B or 26. It should rotate the whole bike backwards and you get a slacker head tube angle more towards this bike. This is the ultimate "poor man's hack" for this approach?

[@LeoInterHyenaem]

You're quite the cycling encyclopedia, Alee! I wonder what you think of the Salsa WarBird 2019, the Norco Search XR, the Genesis Datum, the Accent Feral, the Accent Freak, the Trek Émonda ALR 5 Disc, the Norco Search XR S(teel) and so on.

[@Cyclingabout]

Thanks! Hopefully I'll be able to create enough resources over the next few months so that you can assess the merits of all of those bikes yourself. 😊

[@philoso377]

Nice video and presentation. If stuck with the current frame and need more traction? How about handle bar bags?

[@ykb946]

Thanks!!

[@W1DO]

I like this bike, I prefer mtb angles on my bikes. When buying my last drop bar bike I looked for the slackest head angle bike I could find and got a xl frame so I could run a "normal" 50mm stem. I have used it for CX and road racing, as well as rides with mates and gravel roads. I think this sort of geometry is what all drop bar bikes need, I understand that people dont like change and that being wrong makes people feel insecure ;) PS I am currently choosing between building a kona honzo CF or a cotic 29er as my next road bike.

[@Cyclingabout]

A Honzo road bike?! You're mad, and I like it. What fork will you spec?

[@W1DO]

@@Cyclingabout whisky fork, so I can run either 32mm slicks or 29er rims (got the stock ones from my trek slash and the ones on the honzo to swap between, might need some thinner rims on one set).... provided the Only XL bike is not sold when I get to the currently closed shop after lockdown ends

[@neilstoddart00001]

difficult not to think about 'Hagar the Horrible', with this bike!

[@Simon-df2ku]

im not sure anyone buys the Hagar to go bike packing. as an owner i can confirm the video is pretty accurate. i have a size large and so far have ridden it with the stock 50mm stem and a 40mm, the 40mm improved the wheel flop. i have since fitted much wider bars but am yet to try them with the shorter stem. my feeling is that this will improve handling even more.

[@Cyclingabout]

Thanks for chiming in! I'm glad the geometry analysis is accurate. Check out the Ritchey Venturemax XL bars, I reckon they would be a great match for the Evil.

[@Simon-df2ku]

@@Cyclingabout i thought about those but couldnt resist the Enve Gravel bars, the larger size are 70mm wider than stock on the drops which is where it matters.

[@wandering999]

@@Cyclingabout which Salsa drop bars did you recommend for the Salsa Journeyman Flat bar bike conversion to drop bar bike? I'm sorry, but I just couldn't make out which one you said.

[@Cyclingabout]

@@wandering999 I mentioned the Curve Walmer handlebar, but I also really like the Ritchey VentureMax XL. The closest Salsa handlebar is the Cowchipper 52cm.

[@wandering999]

I did go back and realized it was a Curve Walmer bar you recommended! Have fun in Mexico

[@normanmitchell9536]

I prefer the davey Lee Roth Geo ...😎

[@kubackjeee]

Wide handlebar at the tops are a recipe to shoulder injuries!

[@Varaxis]

I'm confused by how CS affects seated climbing. Thought that how far forward you sat in front of the rear axle mattered more for that, than how far forward the cranks were. When standing, long CS = more weight on the front, but less rear traction. Sucks to spin out.

[@kennoon7177]

Awesome

[@sboy1955]

Wow, excellent lesson. Quite a lot to take in so I'll have to watch again. I was wondering who makes the front fork bags located at 4:55 in this video? Thx for taking your time to educate us!

[@Cyclingabout]

They are Curve Rocket Pooch bags.

[@sboy1955]

CYCLINGABOUT - thanks!

[@sboy1955]

CYCLINGABOUT - Wow, pricey! Didn't see a USA source?

[@Cyclingabout]

@@sboy1955 Definitely not cheap, but $125 for a titanium cage ($50+ alone) and handmade cargo cage bag (normally $50+ for a regular dry bag from other bikepacking manufacturers) is also not crazy.

[@sboy1955]

CYCLINGABOUT - I see your point

[@troycarpenter3675]

Nice

[@oscargomez8096]

Can you get a journeyman with drops and just get a new handlebar or is the geo different? That way you save in the stem and shifters...

[@racerx8410712]

It's not that I don't want a bike that handles well but more so I want a bike that checks a number of boxes. I can adapt more to a bike than the amount of absolute change a bike is capable of. Especially considering the ching one must pay for this kind of development (full rigid 29er drop anyone?).

[@Cyclingabout]

Put a good rider on any bike and they'll still be a good rider. 👍🏻

[@I3estHer0]

Does the more-mass-means-better-cornering-grip-math really check out for bikes with so little Suspension? Of course a tyre with more weight on it will generate more grip (this relation is oftentimes less than linear, i think) But the front wheel has a leverage advantage vs the center of mass, because it is further away from the turning point (rear contact path). So a longer front-end will have less grip, but it will also need less grip due to the better leverage to turn the bike. An analogy could be found in automotive suspension design, where more front axle weight is associated with understeering and not oversteering as the more-mass-means-more-grip-math would suggest.

[@Cyclingabout]

It definitely checks out. The best way to try for yourself is to ride a long john or bakfiets-style cargo bike without a load, on a loose surface. It's incredibly easy to understeer the bike, but as soon as you increase the load on the front tyre (add weight to the cargo box), it will have ample front end grip.

[@paulokuong]

would the effect of all those angles depend upon the size of the rider?

[@MrTeff999]

Can you explain why most manufacturers make slack head tube angles on their small frames and steep head tube angles on their large frames? I had a Felt road bike some years ago. It was a 60 cm frame and it had a 74° head tube. It was the worst handling bike I’ve ever owned. Also, there was some toe overlap. By comparison, the smallest frame what is 72.5°.

[@Cyclingabout]

It's to minimise the wheelbase length, maximise the front centre length (in small sizes) and better match the overall steering characteristics around the stem length. Big bikes have longer stems which call for a faster steering geometry achieved with a steeper HTA. Small bikes use slower steering geometries (slacker HTA) but have shorter stems. Personally, I'm not racing in a peloton on my road bike so I don't need a short wheelbase to slot through tight gaps. I'd prefer to have a longer top tube, shorter stem, slacker HTA, longer fork rake and longer chainstays. In fact, most of my recent road bikes have just been gravel/cyclocross bikes with road tyres, which have allowed me to achieve these exact parameters!

[@MrTeff999]

@@Cyclingabout It seems to me that when frame sizes of a given model have different HTAs, each one will handle differently. This is because the ratio of height to wheelbase increases. Although lengthening the stem can slow the steering inputs on steeper frames, it doesn't change the fact that the endo point is made worse. Also, the longer stem just adds to the problem by moving the center of gravity forward. I've ridden with 6'11" Bill Walton who has a custom made titanium road bike made by Bill Holland. It is very tall but the wheelbase seems almost comically short. I've always feared that one day he would do a terrible endo. In any case, when a reviewer says he loves the way a particular bike carves corners, I'm never sure if that holds true for all frame sizes of that model. Keep up the good work.

[@almuntassermohammad7862]

is this bike good for beginners? or should I go for the salsa warbird geometry instead?

[@Niidea1986]

Why not just making a longer front triangle bike with flat bars instead of drop bars to compensate for the overall reach? Seeing the bike on the video it seems that's the direction we are going.

[@Cyclingabout]

Flat bars are definitely my preference for off-road or slow terrain, but drops do give you more aero body positions for higher speed riding. That's why my road bikes aren't all flat bar. 👍🏻

[@oreocarlton3343]

Slack HA are good for suspension performance, not so much on a rigid, they make a bike feel dull

[@jonnythelegs2597]

The geometry is just like a trail bike but it's been built like a narrow tyre xc bike with eyelets for luggage.

[@reallybadperson]

Fantastic video. Is there a way you'd calculate an 'optimal' sweet spot for stem length + drop bar width with a given trail?

[@Cyclingabout]

It'd be hard because it depends on the terrain, rider speed, tyre pressure and whether or not you carry luggage.

[@johnnyguzman3429]

Descends like a Cadillac, climbs like a slug. Same geometry as the Marin Four Corners that I used to have and got rid of for those very reasons.

[@RugbyLink]

5:40 “Longer wheelbase lowers Center of Mass”??? How???

[@recyclespinning9839]

Um. I just bought a vintage Trek 930, and a Paramount PDG 40 series ,, very cheap , barely used original owner , mint. The geometry on them have long top tube.

[@sircrackien]

Great video and detailing the geo and why it was done, you mentioned using a Salsa Journeyman as a budget replacement. I'd also like to suggest the current generation Salsa Fargo even though it does have a shorter toptube and reach, it makes up for much of that with the much slacker headtube and taller front end. It creates a very balanced bike for both onroad and off, it also carries weight really well. Also the tire clearance becomes more and more important with both the difficulty of the offroad riding you are doing (more grip) and with long distance offroad comfort (bigger tires mean less pressure which gives a more comfortable stable ride.

[@Cyclingabout]

The Fargo is within 31-44mm in wheelbase length across all frame sizes, so it's going to be similarly stable bike with slightly more front weight bias. I chose the Journeyman because it is much closer in terms of bike fit, weight and max tyre size - more of a "gravel" bike if you like. But I agree - wide tyres go a very long way to making a bike off-road capable, even if they are a bit slower on dirt roads.

[@brauljo]

13:30 The frameset is 2800 USD, you could get a custom titanium frameset from Waltly or Titan from China for less than half. You could save even more money if you design the frame around a carbon fork from Aliexpress.

[@Cyclingabout]

For sure you could go custom and it'd be cheaper!

[@dvoob]

very informative video, but I don't think people should really get that lost in all these numbers, It's all just going to be small percentage points better/worse, not going to effect your ride enough to seriously worry about for most people.

[@Cyclingabout]

I disagree, the differences are quite large, and will definitely be noticeable to anyone buying at this kind of price point. We're talking about multiple kilograms off the front wheel on uphill trails, we're talking 5%+ steeper gradients while seated, we're talking significantly more bike stability at speed on dirt roads.

[@dvoob]

@@Cyclingabout you may be able to ride up a hill 5% steeper on paper, but this bike will be super unstable under 5 mph (as you stated in the video). Also the statement significantly more stable at high speeds means nothing with out an actual test. I don't know anyone who rides terrain extreme enough to warrant any extra stability that isn't skilled enough to ride even the steepest of cross bikes on gravel.

[@Cyclingabout]

@@dvoob ​ I was referring to the Rivendell when it comes to steeper gradients. If I can't convince you of the extra stability using bike dynamics concepts, or personal experience - you'll have to go out and test ride some high trail, short stem, long-wheelbase bikes for yourself! Even though I could probably ride a bmx down a steep mountain bike trail, or a gravel bike down a rutted out 4X4 track, I still prefer bikes that are better designed for their intended use.

[@FalcoBikes]

Bad idea, here is why: None of the "gravel" terrain shown in this 15 minute video was ANYWHERE NEAR the kind of trail that warrants such "progressive" geometry (you actually had to use some MTB footage showing a Dale Scalpel to illustrate the point about going down descents). This thing has a 66 deg head angle, while my Scott Spark has a 68 deg head angle. But the Spark is used to ride on terrain that's easily 20 times more technical and steeper than the "gravel" roads shown (just ask Nino Schurter). Somewhere in the middle, you started talking about cargo weight distribution. Wait, are we talking about touring bikes or gravel bikes? Plus, if you would ever need to ride down big drops or rocks, why would you use a rigid fork and a narrow bar? A gravel bike with a dropper post? Why do you need a dropper post when you don't even have a suspension fork? If you are tackling a pro line in Whistler, get a Nomad or Spectral. What does "progressive" even mean anyway? Allowing trans-people in women's bathrooms??? In my mind, there is no "progressive", just "suitable". Why would an Arabian want to have quarter horse legs?

[@Cyclingabout]

-The trail does not need to be super steep to warrant a slack head tube angle. The head tube angle and fork rake make the wheelbase longer, which lowers your CoM, even on a 3% decline. The result is more bike stability. Not to mention, the endo angle is larger, which means if you hit a rock or water bar on the road, it's harder to go over the bars. - I mention cargo capacity because lots of folks use gravel bikes for bikepacking and touring. - This bike is not designed for drops or rocks, it's designed for gravel roads. - "Progressive" is just a word that the industry uses to refer to the trend of longer, lower and slacker. - A dropper post allows you to lower your CoM on steep descents. They're great.

[@FalcoBikes]

@@Cyclingabout Thanks for your response. I read it very carefully, but I am still struggling to see how my points are addressed. With respect to COM, it has very little to do with wheel base, as it's only limited by pedal strikes. If you lower your COM, your pedals will be closer to the ground, you hit a rock, you fall. In fact, longer wheel base makes pedal strikes more likely for a given terrain (coz there is more opening space between the two wheels). In addition, is "more stability" always better? Why not a 50 degree head tube then? Or what the heck, how about 40 degree HTA? So road bike and CX bike geometries w HTA of 71-74 degrees over the past 100 years all got it wrong? Bike designers all neglected the "endo angle" for a 100 years? If one is really worried about hitting big rocks, maybe one should get a suspension fork? Also "The trail does not need to be super steep ... A dropper post allows you to lower your CoM on steep descents." Again my point is, some of the features on this bike are those that would suit a typical Enduro course, while other features can't even handle moderate offroad terrain (such as rigid fork). In my opinion, it's an interesting experiment, but the designer really hasn't thought it through.

[@Cyclingabout]

- When you make a wheelbase longer, it effectively lowers your centre of mass (nothing to do with the BB height) which will make a bike more stable. In combination with a dropper post, which allows you to drop your CoM even further, there is no doubt that the Chamois Hagar is THE most stable gravel bike for descending. - Over rocks, you're correct, the pedals would effectively be closer to the rock when you pivot over it. But the Chamois Hagar is a gravel bike and not at all intended to be used on rocky terrain - especially with the 50mm max tyre widths. - Why not 40/50 degrees? It affects the steering speed too much. There is not a stem length, nor bar width which would make it work well. - Road/CX bikes are built for a different purpose, so the geometry is always going to be different. A CX bike needs to make lots of sharp turns at low speeds with lots of weight over the front tyre, and the high trail and long front centre of the Chamois Hagar would hinder that. - Enduro/XC bikes are also built for a different purpose, so there is no need to compare the geometries and features of these bikes. It's important for us to assess how 66.6 degrees with 57mm trail on a rigid bike will work *specifically* on dirt roads. - Don't get me wrong, I agree that 66.6-degree HTAs offer lots of shortcomings for most gravel riding speeds and terrain, but it DOES make sense for high-speed gravel riding, in particular.

[@carlaarden5891]

CYCLINGABOUT from what your saying, it seems to me this bike is designed for the the technical MTB rider who wants to adventure into the (new) gravel world. I also found your suggested theory on long adventure travel and loaded distribution on front very interesting, do you think a too loaded carbon front would start to shake at a higher speed decent or the geometry would counter the weight. I’m totally not a expert on bike geometry and found this video totally informative...I also imagine wheel size is a big breaker as a smaller wheel might be too agile with front loaded at speed and a 29” less so. All this is a mind field to me as I’m trying to understand more... very interesting bike to talk about...it helps when comparing to other bikes xx

[@Cyclingabout]

@@carlaarden5891 I don't think you need to be a technical MTB rider to appreciate the benefits of this bike. Anyone will do better on fast gravel descents with a longer wheelbase, slower steering and a larger endo angle. But this geometry definitely has downsides in different riding situations. You can design bikes to not shake at speed with the right frame geometry, even weight distribution and an appropriately stiff frame and fork. But typically, I recommend people move their heavier items *from* the front of the bike as it makes your bike so much less agile. With all other things equal, smaller wheels have less gyroscopic effect and they increase the steering speed (less trail). You could say that comparatively, they are less stable on fast descents but more agile for slow-speed manoeuvres.

[@Dellvmnyam]

Does anybody know a belt-compatible frame with similar geometry?

[@Pillokun]

Iam all for longer top tube and shorter stem. But too slack head angle.. well I want to adjust it mu self. And the seat tube for me must be as steep as possible or it will feel very off for me.

[@W1DO]

Head angle is perfect, I have been looking 4 a slacker head angle and steeper seat tube pairing for a while.

[@AXC629]

@NoaKirel LA - See sweetheart Im researching before jumping into the deep end. 😘😘

[@jonienglish3231]

How About FORK OFFSET

[@roadrider1100]

But the front end will still plow in the loose stuff if you don't shift your weight over the front wheel

[@Cyclingabout]

A bigger problem on the flat and uphill when we ride seated, but usually not a problem for descents because we are standing up. 👍🏻

[@richardcameron2472]

What where the "Advanced geomerty concepts"? that all seemed pretty standard to me?

[@Cyclingabout]

I haven't seen anyone else using software to calculate the average CoM of a typical rider+bike across various bike sizes and then using the CoM data to calculate endo/looping angles and weight distributions.

[@christophertacl4710]

@@Cyclingabout kzbin.info/www/bejne/hmKbhKiqjr5_a6s and kzbin.info/www/bejne/n2a1Z2OAfa-Vrqs I think your picture of endo/looping angle also shows the line going to the axles instead of the contact patch.

[@WtfYoutube_YouSuck]

How is this different from a Salsa Cutthroat that has been around for years?

[@Cyclingabout]

It has a much longer reach (~50mm longer), shorter stem, lower stack, 2-3 degree slacker head tube angle, higher trail, lower bottom bracket, shorter chainstays, longer wheelbase... they're actually very different bikes.

[@WtfYoutube_YouSuck]

@@Cyclingabout i guess gravel is where all the experimentation will be the next couple years.

[@Cyclingabout]

@@WtfKZbin_YouSuck Yep, it's currently going through its teen phase, trying to find its identity!

[@WtfYoutube_YouSuck]

@@Cyclingabout Indeed! I got a Cutty as my Gravel/MonsterCross/Bikepacker/Commuter. Nice to see so much innovation in the category as one day I want to do the Tour Divide. All top-end road bikes are starting to look exactly the same as the aerodynamics are dictating design. Gravel is like a crazy grab bag between all the disciplines! Great channel. Glad I found ya!

[@obscurerides]

The Chamois Hagar can’t ride 55.

[@starshihtzupuppy3409]

Isn't that a cc MTB on drop bars then?

[@Cyclingabout]

If we compare it to a rigid bike like the Kona Unit, the main difference is the bottom bracket height is 15mm lower!

[@igormijic]

Lol looks like my specialized guardrail that I turned to a gravel bike

[@troycarpenter3675]

It's simply a drop bar hard tail mtb

[@2WheelsGood.01]

$3k USD frame...YIKES. Awesome video though and great explanation on the different geometries.

[@Cyclingabout]

Yeah, I'd be wanting a custom-made frame with that kind of dough.

[@ClarkBark14]

I just picked up a Marin Gestalt X11. Similar design ethos, 1X drive train and dropper post for 2k even. Aluminum frame and a little lesser quality components though.

[@K1989L]

Frames that are designed around short stems already reduce the adjustability of the frame. This is problem pronounces if you are a short rider or have short upper body. It really does seem that many new bikes (almost all of the mtbs) are designed that way. Making me, a 5' 9" tall person, to buy small or very small frames and use short stems or there is not even small enough frame available! I would appreciate that the frames were designed around longer stems so there will be more room for different people to adjust. I am frustrated by this. I've decided never again to buy another mtb. Luckily I am not much into mtbing.. but they are not the only bikes that are designed looong.

[@K1989L]

Oh yeah and bars over 60cm often cause me pain so if the steering is fast with a short stem then I just need to deal with that. I always prefer much narrower bars than 60cm. So todays bike fads aren't making me any favours.

[@ColtSievers1000]

God man wipe or blow your nose lol not sure what's hanging 😂 🤣

[@mtbboy1993]

My bike is a Nicolai/Geometron G1 it's an enduro bike it has long chainstay slack headangle. You are not completely right when it comes to chainstay length, shorter the rider shorter the chain stays should be, I am 181cm and my bike has 455 mm chainstay. Many brands do the mistake of having same chainstay for all sizes, this means the balance points are different. Shorter chainstay makes the bike more noble, easier throw around, fishtail, but for some bikes short chainstay makes sense, like a dirt jump bike, bike trails bike, there steep headangle also make sense, but for all other mountainbiking it does not, of course not evry bike has to be like a Geometron G1. But some years ago many brands went with as short as possible chainstay, which was silly.

[@Cyclingabout]

I agree that chainstays should be sized in proportion with the rider! There are design constraints around making the small Chamois Hagar with

[@mtbboy1993]

@@Cyclingabout on a Mountainbike the slack headangle is great, yes wheel changes angle of the bike while turning but it, does not a fight to keep it going straight, or 5urn it where I want it to, my fork has 44mm offset, headtube angle is at 62 deg, i have 33mm stem, 800mm bar, reach is 515mm i use mid foot position on Catalyst Pedals, I have saddle tip above bb, so it's a modern setup, modern bike, the seating position effects the balance points, or body language on the bike. My bike is a good mix. But I have tried a kids fat bike once, I know it was way too small for me I am an adult that bike was 24inch wheels, 😁 but it was a fight to keep it going straight, once you turned it required alot of force to turn it, it was a Diamant fatbike, that thing was so heavy I could barely lift front end and it was stuck to the ground when jumping, I could not, of course emabye with some practice I could do it but a kid should not suffer on a bike like that, I am not sure what they did but steering was the worst I have ever tried, but even for the kid who rode it the issue was the same, even a bmx handled better. And that's twitchy and scary. I guess that's what you get for budget bike. 😁 They got it all wrong. 🙄 My bike is not that. Many brands were late to the geometry game. And some are still catching up. But I went for a å frame set that was all the way there, where nothing had to be tweaked. 😊 But kids bike with strange steering or geometry, sizing is still common, but Nicolay could make the perfect bike, they did for a kid in UK. Same frame as me same geo, just for a kid. 👌

[@gwynnjason]

from retro mtb to modern mtb design. gravel bikes = mtbs with drop bars

[@Cyclingabout]

The numbers look similar, but the reasons why we arrived at them are often a little different.

[@kamikira9136]

If you buy this just buy a mountain bike -_-

[@Rocky4719]

“The bike is also marketed towards people interested in bikepacking and commuting” who is going to leave a $2k+ bike outside the store?! Bikepacking I can sort of see it doing that, but I’d probably leave it at home instead of my trusty city bike if I need to actually get things done.

[@Cyclingabout]

You can go bikepacking and commute to work without leaving your bike outside a store...

[@johnm91326]

'science'

[@Cyclingabout]

Using physics and maths to understand dynamic bicycle handling isn't science?

[@PierreJohnsonPro]

Nice video and channel. But is this video sponsered by Evil Chamois Hager ?

[@Cyclingabout]

No. I would mention if it was.

[@dahuman]

This is seriously dumb, just get a good 29 inch XC bike and put a wide ass dropper with matching drive train and remote lock out then, better yet, put a good dropper post on it too. What's the point of gravel bikes if manufactures are going down this route?

[@Manetty6]

the cheap "hagar" has a big problem, it has a shitty small diameter seatpost tube, so you are fucked with the dropper witch is essential for a "modern" "all do" bike.

[@Cyclingabout]

There are enough 27.2mm dropper posts these days.

[@exitusgx]

It just needs a flatbar and bigger tires and we'll call it XCountry oh wait...

[@alextokmakoff6521]

This sounds like the basics coming from mountain biking

[@Cyclingabout]

Yeah, we've learned a lot about bicycle dynamics over the last decade in the MTB world.

[@cancer8343]

You need an expensive commuter only when bike infrastructure is poor.

[@Slow.Smooth]

I think the geo is cool but unnecessary. As a former roadie, turned mtb lover, buy a gravel bike was a waste of funds. Couldve gotten my mtb sooner

[@Slow.Smooth]

Steve King honestly it’s the immediate fun that my mountain gave me was unmatched by my gravel bike. Mtb Can Shred every trail with confidence and who cares about going fast on road? Once you’re going past 12.5 mph there’s more air resistance than rolling so you might as well just go 12mph constantly

[@chrisfox6065]

You should ride the bike. 😉

[@Cyclingabout]

Maybe when I finish my current journey to Alaska!

[@chrisfox6065]

CYCLINGABOUT there ya go!

[@henriks5008]

That one fugly bike!

[@W1DO]

Have to disagree, it's the best looking road/gravel frame out there (the angles dont look horrible like they do on most road bikes). If it had a nice day glow paint job I would probably already own one

[@henriks5008]

@@W1DO Good thing taste is individual then ;)

[@BranGrizz]

this is just a hardtail with a static fork and drop bars, change my mind

[@salvatoremannino3389]

If I was a kind person I wouldn`t say anything about some weird yellowish blob coming out of your left narice at minute 7:51, but I am not...

[@Cyclingabout]

I was waiting for this comment to come, luckily I ate it for the next clip 🤢😅