ESEE PR4 Versus ESEE 4: Which Knife is Best for You

The ESEE PR4 and the ESEE 4 are very similar knives, but each have subtle differences that give them advantages in handling the tasks they were designed for.
Bushcraft, campcraft, survival, and even tactical environments all demand certain things from a knife in order to handle the related tasks most effectively. So if you're interested in getting one of these two knives, I hope this video helps to steer you in the right direction. If not--please reach out to me through the comment section below.
I put both the ESEE PR4 and the ESEE 4 through quite a bit of work before making this video in order to form my personal opinion where these knives stand in terms of function. Both knives are very tough and capable, but in this video I discuss and demonstrate some of my findings. I also show close-up comparison views and discuss the individual specs of each knife to help you get a good idea of how these two knives from ESEE Knives might serve your needs.
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ESEE PR4: amzn.to/36rTBcG
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Other knives from ESEE Knives: amzn.to/3Iq2b97

[@RandallsAdventureESEE]

Thanks for the review and sharing your thoughts! Both great knives but in different ways....always like your videos! Keep up the good work man!

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks! I'm very particular about the gear and equipment I choose to carry with me (especially when it comes to knives). For me, it's all about function--it has to do its job well and it has hold up to the unpredictabilities of Nature, Adventure, and the Marine in me that always seems to find a way to break things. So far, the ESEE knives that I've worked with are holding up to the task--so thanks for the great work on your end!

[@justpettet3506]

@Florida Dad true dat

[@ezekielswiss5956]

love all these new blades but sucks they dont have kydex... making most everyone to have to upgrade to kydex spending another 40 or so on top of the knife price..... old esee 4 kydex was very nice. bring it back!

[@jouwenlee7829]

Like the clarity and the comparison in details. Great video

[@John-hp7tz]

Thanks for a very helpful comparison.

[@gavingaming123]

Excellent comparison between the two knives with no bs ! The PR4 is very reminiscent of Kephart's in blade geometry. Thanks again for sharing. All the best from Scotland. Garry

[@AdventureRyan]

I'm glad the comparison helped, and yes, I'm a true believer in the need for less BS--so hopefully that's what you continue to see here on my channel. Thanks again for watching!

[@jamesconnors5653]

Have been carrying PR4 for a year; works like a champ.

[@kriskabin]

I've watched A LOT of knife review vids, & wow, your videos are far superior! You actually test the blades out in the field & I could see the heavy use on these knives. I sure as hell would trust your judgment on a blade over the couch surfer YT guy who reviews his new blade over his kitchen table. Wonderful variation of camera shots & editing as well 👌. You've earned a new subscriber!👍

[@AdventureRyan]

Thank you so much. I’m glad the reviews are helpful. It takes more time and effort to do it this way, but in my opinion, there’s little use for a video that doesn’t show the actual function of the tool.

[@bartcornelius7717]

Great review. I'm from Alabama and have the ESEE 4 and several other ESEEs. That's a beautiful area that you're in. 👍

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks, Bart!

[@willk5413]

Great video! I'm glad this showed up my recommended. Subbed and God bless!

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks for subscribing, Will K!

[@junkinthebrain]

Very good information. Thank you for taking your time to share!

[@AdventureRyan]

You're welcome! I'm glad it was helpful.

[@bladecollector7]

Great video comparing them! I have both and I'm falling in love w my PR4 wish it came w kydex though

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks Bladecollector 7. I prefer the kydex as well, so I had one made by Kent at 7rattlesbushcraft.com (I show the sheath in one of my other videos). He does good work. I feel more than comfortable recommending him.

[@TACHILL]

I like em both Ha. Great comparison on two great blades!

[@caseysimpson1806]

Subscribed in the first minute. Excellent presentation of differences and advantages. I have a few knives, but I like the simplicity and strength of ESEE products.

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks for subscribing--Welcome! I'm glad the video was helpful for you. I have a couple more knife reviews in the works right now (Fieldcraft 3.5 from Tops Knives and the Next Gen from LT Wright). It might a little while though. I take my time making these reviews so that I'm able to really feel out the capabilities of the knife design. Are there any specific knives that you would like me to do a review on? I can't make any promises, but I do like to know what my viewers want to see.

[@caseysimpson1806]

@@AdventureRyan Sorry I missed your response. How about a compass review?

[@matthewmitchell8678]

Awesome video! Most people don’t do that well of a job doing a comparison between products. Yours was well done with demonstrations with each knife. I’m getting the ESEE 4 it works best for me

[@AdventureRyan]

Thank you, Matthew. I'm glad the video was helpful. Let me know how you end up liking the ESEE 4--it's a tough knife, for sure.

[@PMCKnivesAndTools]

Interesting and thought provoking video, thanks.

[@davidtate166]

I got pr4 coming the kephark design old school 1095 steel it will do.i will trust it.

[@joncox9719]

Just ran across your channel, GREAT report! I have the Essee 4 and LOVE it and was currently looking at purchasing a Kephart style knife and am debating on purchasing the PR4! Weighing the differences between the two I could not support the purchase based on practicality, the Essee 4 should be able to do what the other can do 99% of the time. But when you collect Bushcraft knives, what does practical mean anyway! Ha! I need BOTH! Knife collecting is a sickness and I'm bitten with it BAD! Love wood working with knives! Great video, thanks!

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks for watching Jon. And yes, I agree that if you have the ESEE 4 then the PR4 might not be necessary. But I think we both know that the reason we buy knives is rarely out of necessity-ha! That said, I use my PR4 a lot more than my 4 these days. The slightly thinner blade along with the kephart style blade profile really do affect the function and feel of the knife. For camping and bushcraft type things, I really like the PR4. The handle is really slim, so that’s the only issue that some people have with it. You can always put an a different handle on, but if your planning to do that, there are other options out there to consider that will cost you less than the price of the PR4 plus the additional handle. That said, I actually find the slim handle very useful in certain situations. “Collect ‘em all,” right?

[@joncox9719]

@@AdventureRyan Yes, I have big hands and the slim handle on the PR-4 will have to be replaced for $50.00, so now I'm looking at the LT Wright Genesis at the same price and will hold it's value. So why put that kind of money into something that will be less likely to get 1/2 my money back on if I were ever to sell it! So I'm definitely going with the Genesis! Not that the PR-4 is any less capable or lesser quality. But you can't go throwing good money after bad!

[@AdventureRyan]

I reviewed the L.T. Wright Genesis a while back if you want to take a peek at that video, but yes, you can’t go wrong with the Genesis, in my opinion. The PR4 will get the job done, and ESEE’s forever guarantee gives you confidence to really find out what their products can handle, but at the same time, you will not be disappointed by the Genesis. With the Genesis, you also have the option (depending on availability) of scandi, saber, and flat grinds. The steel will be different, as well. I’ve seen it available in various steels, but most often, A2 (which is what mine is). Let me know what you end up with. I always enjoy hearing about other people’s endless knife quests. It’s a great adventure!

[@captainknifenerd9715]

Great video! I had both of those knives, but sold the ESEE 4 and kept the PR4. Only reason I sold it is because i have the Izula ll, ESEE 3, and 5. I like your handle modification on the ESEE 4.

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks, Captain Knife Nerd. It sounds like you have your bases covered without the ESEE 4. Personally, I'm not sure I could part with mine after all it's been through with me--it's that man and knife bonding phenomenon again!

[@theaveragewoodsman6002]

I have both of these blades and enjoy them. For me, the ESEE 4 is my favorite of the two. Although, mine has been modified slightly, as it has no coating, TKC handle scales and a 90 degree spine.

[@AdventureRyan]

Sounds nice, Wicked Hale. Kind of a hybrid that takes what I like about the ESEE 4 and the PR4 and combines them into a single knife.

[@steelfanatic918]

Love your channel. You always do a fantastic job especially with you explanation on the differences. Thanks for all you do. I am subscribed!

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks, Steel Fanatic!

[@denisdegamon8224]

Excellent knife review, well presented, concise and informative. Well done.

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks, Denise.

[@denisdegamon8224]

@@AdventureRyan everyone makes that mistake of thinking I am a girl. No problem my friend. My first name is spelled with only one n.

[@AdventureRyan]

Sorry about that. I actually read it as “Denis” but somehow through in that last “e” by accident.

[@kriskabin]

There's also the Esee 4hm to consider too. It has a more comfortable handle compared to the 2 other models in this vid.

[@AdventureRyan]

I haven’t used the 4hm yet. But you’re right, It does kind of bridge the gap between the two though.

[@kiwi_comanche]

Solid vid man!!

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks, Kiwi Comanche!

[@NorseAlpine]

Great video, I totally agree with your conclusions! Me personally, I really like the Mora Garberg for my belt knife but ESEE makes great knives, they are just darn expensive here in Europe.

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks, Uberlebe! Mora's are great--especially the Garberg. In fact, even the cheapest Mora is a great knife as long as you don't beat it up or use it outside it's intended purpose. That's too bad the prices for ESEE knives are so high over there.

[@carllevingston6022]

Very nice video and great info! Have you looked at the Becker BK-62? TX!

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks, Carl. And I'm familiar with the BK-62, but I haven't had a chance to work with it yet. I like the fact that Becker stayed as close as possible to the original Kephart knife. Perhaps I'll review that one in the future. Have you worked with it yourself?

[@carllevingston6022]

@@AdventureRyan I have not but considering picking one up.

[@AdventureRyan]

@@carllevingston6022 Well let me know what you think of it if you beat me to it--ha!

[@AdventureRyan]

@@carllevingston6022 You might also want to check out the Bushcrafter HC by L.T. Wright.

[@tigerpisces5506]

Seems like every time a knife maker tries to create a Horace Kephart Bushcraft knife like Esee PR4, Becker BK-62, Ontario or Condor they all fail to imitate a equal knife? I think Kephart was like Jim Bowie they never let out the secret. They say Becker has an example of the legendary Kephart Knife? I wonder if it was better than anything manufactured today? I think the prefect knife was invented 5,000 years ago. The Iceman found in the Alps they called Ötiz had a practical flint 2” spear point blade knife. I think we expect a tool to be a transformer/multi-tool like a leatherman? The problem with a muilti-tool is they havd a 1/2 tools and none are good as the single tool. Ötzi used a knife to do camp for and maybe skinning a deer or rabbit. But he could not use it as an axe or fire wood preparation. Otzi's knife, 5000 years later. Search domain www.americangrouch.com/2012/07/otzi.htmlwww.americangrouch.com/2012/07/otzi.html Otzi's knife, 5000 years later. In 1991 a voice that had been silent for over five thousand years was, in a manner of speaking, heard again. During the summer snowmelt in the Otztal Alps a group of mountain hikers discovered the 5,300 year old Neolithic man who came to be known as Otzi The Iceman.

[@user-cw1qx3kh6e]

Thanks from video, esee pr4 my dream, from Russia with love✊

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks, Ca Hob. The PR4 is one of my favorites, too.

[@KnifeCrazzzzy]

Well done and succinct! 🙌🏻

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks!

[@KnifeCrazzzzy]

@@AdventureRyan Your welcome, have an epic day!

[@finnwilliam4125]

Thanks 👍🏽

[@AdventureRyan]

No problem, Finn. Hope the video was helpful.

[@amrildo4856]

Excellente thanks Bro

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks! Hopefully it was helpful.

[@1oldvato782]

Have you used the esee-4 S35VN knife or field tested it. Why I'm looking at the S35VN model. Thanks

[@AdventureRyan]

I haven’t gotten to use that one yet. Maybe I’ll invest in one so I can do a comparison video.

[@AdventureRyan]

You can always try shooting ESEE and email and letting them know how important it is that Adventure Ryan to review the ESEE-4 in S35VN--Ha! Worth a try, right?

[@bob6770]

What handle do you have on your Esee 4?? I love yours!

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks for watching, Benjamin. It’s actually just the standard handle scales from ESEE, but I took a round file to it and cut the grooves. I did a short video of the process with my Junglas handle scales if you want to check that video.

[@bob6770]

@@AdventureRyan thank you!!!

[@onionhead5780]

Does anyone know if the pr4 has a solid tang under the grip scales or has it been skeletonized by removing steel?

[@AdventureRyan]

The only steel removed from beneath the scales are the three holes that allow the hardware to pass through and secure the handle together. No other material is removed. I actually just removed the scales on my PR4 the other day while swapping them out with TKC g10 scales--I'll be reviewing them here on my channel soon.

[@onionhead5780]

Adventure Ryan .. Thank you for the speedy response brother. 👍

[@AdventureRyan]

Thank YOU for watching my channel!

[@toto29er]

Tanks for the video....which one would you like best....Esee PR4 or JG5?

[@AdventureRyan]

You're welcome, Fransisco. And I haven't personally used the JG5, but based solely off the design itself, I think I'd perfer the PR4 for most of my adventures. I think the JG5 design looks like a great knife, but the PR4 fits my use better because of its simplicity, it's more basic handle, and the priority that the blade profile places on straight edge over belly. I might have to try out a JG5 one of these days to get a hands-on opinion about it, but just by design alone, I'd say the PR4 would make my gear list over the JG5. Are you planning on picking one up? If so, let me know which one you choose and how you end up liking it.

[@toto29er]

Adventure Ryan thanks for your prompt answer. Yes, I am planning on getting the PR4....will let you know how it goes!!!

[@toto29er]

Finally got my PR4....great knife! Waiting to go out and try it out...

[@AdventureRyan]

@@toto29er Awesome! The thin handle scales might feel kind of weird at first, but give it some time. If you hate it, you can always get pick up some TKC scales for it, but for me, the thinner scales actually grew on me and I found that they actually enhance the knife in ways that thicker scales cannot.

[@williamhoppe4500]

I JUST PURCHASED A PR4. DO YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEM USING IT FOR FOOD PREP? THANKS

[@AdventureRyan]

It’s worked great for food prep for me. It’s not a chef knife, obviously, but it does everything I need it to do around camp. It’s relatively thin and slicy, so it does pretty good for most applications.

[@d2pdb861]

..nice knives..PR4 Is like a avispa(a fixed avispa🙂)

[@WilliamKister]

How do you feel about the ESEE HM series of handles?

[@AdventureRyan]

I don't own any of the HM series handles, so I haven't been able to work with them. I've only held a 4HM and personally, although the rounded handle was nice in the hand, I didn't like the changes to the blade. For the 4, because of how I use it, I like the finger choil the way it is in the regular one. But if you simply can't stand the flat handles of the regular series ESEE knives, the HM series will definitely give you that more rounded. I might have to pick up an HM one of these days so I can review it better.

[@WilliamKister]

@@AdventureRyan I'm up in Prescott. I see you are down by Canyon Lake for most of your ventures. Just ordered an HM to see if the fuller handle works better for me.

[@cocovasquez1]

PR4 is next for me

[@AdventureRyan]

It's a good one. Nothing fancy--just a blade that does its job.

[@bburningham1]

Which one do you like better?

[@AdventureRyan]

It really depends. Both are great knives and will get the job done, but as I talked about in the video, if I’m doing mostly bushcraft/camping type tasks, the pr4 is great. For survival or combat type situations, I like the overbuilt nature of the esee 4.

[@moonrunner8791]

Dudes legit. Subbed.

[@AdventureRyan]

Thanks for subscribing, CARBiNOX!

[@moonrunner8791]

@@AdventureRyan came back to this. ive owned a few esee 4s. how is the pr4 vs the...4? what i mean is which would you pick?

[@AdventureRyan]

​@@moonrunner8791 Like I mentioned in the video, it all comes down to what I'm doing. I would say, however, that for most outdoor adventures, I prefer the PR4 over the 4.

[@wolffo999]

ESEE-4 is my daily carry - kindof badass

[@AdventureRyan]

It’s a good one. Mine has been riding in my glove box lately.

[@user-mb4se6km5p]

I carry the pr4 not my favorite. I lost my favorite tops tex creek. That being said I don't like the sheath it sits to high on the handle. The knife is easy to sharpen but doesn't hold very long.but I do like the warranty esee has, tops doesn't. But I'm poor and live in my van down by the river in northern Arizona if I could afford I would get another tex creek. Loved that knife did a deer last summer and didn't even think about sharpening it. When I was done it was still sharp. Not so with the pr4 I would bet the knife on that.

[@AdventureRyan]

I haven’t tried the Tex Creek yet. That’s too bad you lost yours. And a “van down by the river” budget does make it more to replace the thing.

[@richardsponholz9617]

Should you have the misfortune to be attached in the wilderness by an animal ( bear for example) which knife would you rather have for defense ?

[@AdventureRyan]

Well, first of all, bringing a knife to a bear fight is probably going to end poorly, but I’ll happily indulge this scenario. Between the PR4 and the 4, I’d reach for the 4 just because it’s a thicker, sturdier blade with a little better finger guard once you choke up. That being said, both blades are about the same length, and so reaching vital organs with either is going to difficult. Neither blade will yield well to slashing movements either-at least, not against a bear. If I had to fight a bear with a knife (again...bad idea), I would definitely prefer more reach-something closer to a machete-so I could wildly slash through the air while hoping for the best.

[@richardsponholz9617]

@@AdventureRyan Thank you for your reply and thanks for realizing that was "attacked".

[@TWICESLICEDBREAD]

john 3.16

[@georgebingham1024]

Looks like you got a tree growing out of your head.

[@AdventureRyan]

It's a crazy world out there. Weird stuff happens all the time.

[@aaahbeeeh3374]

i find you seem to be a thought-over and calm (depressive?) person who does reviews, you seem trustworthy. unfortunately this review was bad and misleading, i hope you correct the mistakes i will mention: the esee 4 has a three finger grip with normal hands, you just cant hold it half firm with the fake-fingerchoil as you have shown, your finger would bleed, no adult finger fits that choil. gloves will get holes this way. holding it with the finger on top of that bump is feeling awkward. also there is no logical reason whatsoever to make a handle for 3 fingers on such a longer knife, nothing about "getting in smaller areas", its a very bad choice for a harduse knife. you missed to inform about the very thin handle scales of the pr4, which annoy at least 3/4 of all users, you will need most likely aftermarket scales. the esee coating is very bad, several times batoning and its almost gone, its almost famous for being crap. you cant seriously say this is very good. at last: dont only use inches, the accepted and professional way to measure in such scales is in mm worldwide. im looking forward a respond.

[@AdventureRyan]

I appreciate your comment and the various points you brought up. I really enjoy the many variables that are possible in a knife’s design and how those variables transfer to functionality. This video was made quite a while ago now, and I’d love to create another couple videos to really get into the finer details of both of these knives. If I end up doing this, I’ll make sure to keep some of your comments in mind. Now, I’ll try to address some of the issues you brought up, but keep in mind that my knife reviews are based on my personal opinion, and that personal opinion is based on my use of the knife. That doesn’t make my statements a one size fits all, universal truth-they are personal opinions offered on a youtube channel that viewers pay nothing to watch. ESEE 4 Handle size: Whether or not this handle is “too short” depends on your use of the knife and also your hand size. I wear a “large” in gloves and all four of my fingers fit just fine on the handle. The handle is noticeably shorter than other knives I’ve used, but this is where the variable in knife design can really change the function of the knife. A longer handle would yield better to very hard use, and even allow you to choke back for light chopping, giving the knife more versatility. But as it is, the shorter handle (which for large, adult male hands is still enough to get all four finger on-without the use of the choil) still has its benefits. For one (and this is what I meant by “getting into tight spaces”), a shorter handle is very helpful when elbow deep in a moose trying to skin it out. Anything left hanging out from the back of your hand is just going to get in the way. And second, in tactical/military environments the real estate on your vest is precious and you need things slick and clean so that nothing gets hung up on your gear. It might not seem like a big deal, but that little extra off the handle goes a long ways. (If I absolutely had to have a longer handle on my gear, a custom sheath that secures the upper portion of the handle would help reduce hang ups). ESEE 4 Finger Choil: From your comment, it sounds like since you’re hand does not fit this knife and forces you into a 3-finger hold on the handle, then using the finger choil is the only way you can get all four fingers on the knife. I agree that that wouldn’t be ideal unless it was a small knife for light work only. So again, this is where the individual user-based on there uses of the knife as well as their hand size-is going to vary in their personal opinions on this feature. For me, since I’m able to get all my fingers on the handle, I only use the additional choil when doing lighter, more detailed work and in need of extra control. In these situations, my index finger is in the choil, but the pressure is toward the handle-side of the choil (not balanced at the dead-center of the choil). Holding the knife like this, I feel I have good control and just enough space to make the feature work. I’m not a fan of giant choils on blade portion of the knife as they take up space that I’d rather have for the cutting edge. When using this choil for light, detailed work in this way, I find it works just fine for me (but again, hand size may make a huge difference in this feature being helpful or harmful to the overall functionality of the knife). PR4 Thin Handle Scales: This is definitely an issue of a number of people. I’ve mentioned this issue and talked a little about my thoughts on it in other videos, but I probably should have mentioned it here as well. This specific video has the focus of comparing and contrasting these two knives, so I didn’t dive really deep into either of the knives. One of my earliest knife review videos was on this PR4, but I’ve had a lot more time with it since then, so perhaps its time for a new video that specifically looks at the finer points of this knife. The handle scales are very thin, and it annoyed me at first, but they kind of grew on me. I have a number of different knives that use this same Kephart-style knife design and all of them have thicker handles. The LT Wright Genesis is one of those knives and the thicker, rounder handles yeild themselves very well for hark work (deep heavy cuts…) over long intervals. So, like you, my initial impression of these handles was that they were too thin. But the more I used them, I found that they have their benefits as well. Its the deep, heavy cuts that will always be obnoxious and uncomfortable with knife scales this thin, but when it comes to the lighter tasks, there is no discomfort and the thinner scales actually allow you to grip the knife in ways you simply can’t with thicker handles. Skinning tasks work nicely with these thin handles, for example. You’re able to get a nice low angle when needed, and even pinch grip the blade while doing so, all without the handles getting in the way. The thinner handles also help drop weight from the knife. These things may or not be important to what you need in a knife like this, but regardless, they are functions of this specific design. I’ll dive more into these specifics in a future video and try my best to show examples of when this handle is useful as well as when it is not because I know it is a dividing matter over this knife. I put out another video a while back about some aftermarket handle scales for this knife and I mentioned a little about this being an issue for some people. My statement in that video, which is still my opinion now, is that if for your particular needs, you need a thicker handle on this style of knife, then it is less expenisive to go with one of the many other Kephart-style knives on the market that already has a thicker handle than to purchase an aftermarket handle and a new sheath to fit it. What I’d really like to shed some light on through the future video I mentioned, is what the ESEE PR4 brings to the table as it is-even with its crazy thin handle scales. It may not be the knife for everyone-no knife is-but, like every knife, it has specific design features that yield a specific set of funtions. ESEE Coating: You mentioned that the coating was bad (which I assume you were talking about the textured powder coating on the ESEE4). I haven’t had an issue with it personally, and I own several knives from this company with this coating. All show signs of wear, but I have used them very hard for a long time. In my opinion, the coating has held up well. I’ve used these knives from Arizona to Alaska, and a few places in between. The coating is worn in places (especially on my ESEE5 which probably takes the most beating of them all), so they aren’t showcase pieces, but that’s not why I purchased them in the first place. As you can see in this video, my ESEE 4, which had years of use before this video, has signs of wear on the coating. I baton with this knife and even opened a can of soup with it once. I feel like this is an acceptable amount of wear for what I’ve put it through and there is still plenty of coating left to increase the corrosion resistance more than if it were bare steel. For my needs, and even with hard use, this coating has held up just fine for me (again, this is my personal opinion based on my use of the knife). Inches and MM: Some of my videos offer both standard and metric units of measurement, and some don’t. Sometimes I use whichever unit of measurement the knife maker uses in order to stay consistent with their specifications, but I do see the benefit of having both units of measurement available. Future videos will most likely have both since this isn’t the first time that mm have been requested. I will say, however, that I put a lot of time into filming and editing these videos (not to mention the time I spend working with the knives off-camera), so at the end of the day, if I want to state the knife specs in inches-I can. I pay for the knives I review, and the videos I make are offered to viewers for free. Videos like this allow potential buyers and knife enthusiast to see the knife and hear one person’s opinion about it. If a person wants more information about this knife, they are welcome to go to the manufacturer’s website and go over the information put out by the company that actually makes money from this knife.

[@aaahbeeeh3374]

@@AdventureRyan thanks for the long and in-depth answer to my comment. even though i still disagree to some points, you made some points more clear to which i agree and i surely respect your described experience. as you kind of said: in the end its a tool that needs to work for the user, it needs to be liked. the rest isnt that important. best greetings.