Affirmative Action & Medical School Admissions | The Uncomfortable Truth

[@MedSchoolInsiders]

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[@sara215]

Damn, you are something else dude. Not afraid to tackle any topic. And you really do it well every time. Respect

[@CheezyMudkipz]

I agree with the discrediting URMs part - as a black person, any and every accomplishment on our behalf is discredited. From getting into ivies/grad school. I’m a strong activist for all POC in America - it’s also disheartening to see Asians getting rejected for over-performing. Though AA may have its pros, it perpetuates that black/hispanic people are always underperforming, when that’s not necessarily true. Great video.

[@Ai-tj6gy]

Honestly, looking at the people in my class, we're not being rejected for over-performing. People still think that grades and test scores make the application, but they mean almost nothing if everything else is poorly put together. Admittedly, I didn't perform as well as a lot of the people applying to my program, but I put tons of effort into a tip-top app where I could, and got in my first and only cycle. People really want to just point the finger at everyone but themselves

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

Yeah, I'm non-white person too, I would rather fail honestly than win dishonestly.

[@LondonBroilSandwiches]

The existence of the programs themselves do not contribute to the perpetuation to the myth that Black , Hispanic and Indigenous students are always underperforming rather it’s the perpetuation of the myth that historically these groups have been the leading beneficiaries of the implementation of affirmative action/ diversity inclusion programs in academic and professional settings . Something again this video even does. As I highlighted before if we actually look at data and conclusions from sociological studies that have measured whom has benefited the most from these programs historically it is precisely often the groups that now feel that the existence of the programs disadvantages them .

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

@@LondonBroilSandwiches Really? Where have you heard all that?

[@livinglife7515]

Are you black American( one parent who ancestors were enslaved in America)? I only ask because most BA don’t care about that because our parents had to suffer the consequences of integration and everything that came with it( many kicked out of school, black adults lost their jobs, not to mention not having an opportunity to compete(for PWI) due to the white(anger) backlash. My sister graduates from high school in May and our mother was in the 8th grade when she was integrated into a previously white school( it was torture for the majority of them not the minority of them).

[@wesleychin5319]

Great summary video on affirmative action. One thing I would add about being an "Asian" applicant - there is an increasing push to disaggregate data on Asian applicants because the label is so broad. The term Asian can apply to Middle Eastern, Indian, Southeast Asian, and East Asian people, all of whom are vastly different and have their own histories in the US. So, Asian people as a whole might be an overrepresented minority, but you would be dead wrong if you said a Hmong, Laotion, or Burmese student is overrepresented in medicine.

[@theanonymouslegion4811]

Isn't it already disaggregated though? I remember while applying 2 years ago that us Asians had to specify exactly which Asian country we are associated with on the primary application for med schools.

[@cr4878]

@@theanonymouslegion4811 It wasn't disaggregated on the statistics shown in the video. Which either means admissions don't care anyway from what part of Asia their heritage is from or that the Asian labeled shown in the statistic is misleading since it's more nuanced.

[@lookissjaxin]

Yes, but that would require THINKING 🤔, which is hard, so I’ll just stay woke and judge people by the color of their skin instead of the content of their character instead; it’s easier than thinking 🧐.

[@Trajan114]

Controversial video but a reality that many people don’t mention.

[@greninjafw]

I guess that’s what happens when you try to work around a problem rather than target the root cause, you get more problems But tbh targeting root cause is hard

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

Blacks and Latinos have to fix THEMSELVES. Only THEY can solve the root cause of the problem. They can do this by simply NOT having multiple kids out of wedlock and joining gangs and skipping school.

[@supereggtartersauce6464]

It’s cus America was built this way on purpose

[@NrsArea420]

Based af Problem is working on roots that come from sociocultural factors is practically impossible, you pretty much have to change people behavior (both those in bad conditions and those who are not).

[@arianacareymariahgrande3582]

!!!

[@boozscha99]

I am matriculating into a great school this fall. And as a Hispanic kid who grew up with two parents who are doctors, for better or worse I knew I was a beneficiary of this race based affirmative action.

[@kg-ke1fw]

I'm sure you benefited because of your parents more than the racism schools use

[@_Trey-3]

I doubt it was AA that got you in

[@boozscha99]

@@kg-ke1fw I didn’t mention my parents besides the mandatory occupation section, nor do they have any connections anywhere, they’re old lol. I’m not saying I got in because of any particular reason, I had great scores and a good application. I’m saying it’s kind of backwards that I COULD be admitted based on my race, because I do not share the experiences of the Hispanic kids that AA is trying to benefit.

[@holtcompass3934]

If you can fix me up doc, it don't matter

[@philliptran6419]

I’m going to be in college this summer, and I’ve been watching your videos for information, even for entertainment too. Really appreciate the effort you put into this channel

[@zayinghui6282]

This is a racial discrimination policy. Simply put. What they need to do is ask is what are the upstream options to aim at to increase diversity naturally downstream. In my opinion it should be increased funding to low income schools to aim at childhood and increased funding for Science related classes in those schools. This top down enforcement to try and make every race equally represented is inherently racist and wrong.

[@drhapi5308]

This guy gets it. 10/10 take

[@_Trey-3]

Harder said then done especially when selfish people don’t want to fund poor areas

[@taike545]

@@drhapi5308 100%. I am a black man. I am the equivalent of a US surgical resident, here in the U.K. I scored in the top 5% of the country in our equivalent of the MCAT, and got distinctions throughout med school and now I am in a competitive surgical training programme. If at any point I was advantaged due to my race and I was cognisant of that, it would be an insecurity for the rest of my career. I do see it both ways though. The advantage white students have through generational wealth and knowledge acquisition, often at least in part at the expense of ethnic minorities, can be seen as unfair if you take a long view of it. This can be seen as redressing a historic injustice, so at some point in the future, black and hispanic students can start from a truly equal footing economically, educationally, culturally etc. Asian students of course have not had the same benefits that white students have had, so should not be disadvantaged in such a way. Interestingly, if you do a subgroup analysis of black students you will find that certain groups perform far better. Nigerians significantly outearn the median salary both in the UK and US, and are overrepresented in higher education and STEM. Treating any group as a homogenous monolith turns out to be too simplistic, but stratifying the groups into ever smaller/more specific groups in the name of fairness is unworkable.

[@boojames4424]

Yea but increasing funding isn’t going to solve issues like students who come from poor families and need to work while going to school, growing up in high crime areas, and not having access period. No matter what funding u give to these school there will still be an issue of access. This policy isn’t perfect but it’s the most simple way to open the doors for AA and Hispanic students

[@kg-ke1fw]

That won't do much

[@SemperCogitas]

As time has progressed, becoming an MD is less attractive. Spend 15 years becoming a Doctor in exchange for a poor work life balance, large debt, lower pay for time invested, stress from hospital systems and how they operate not to mention burn out. Docs i know don't recommend their kids or families purse medicine. Soon we will beg students to apply and import doctors because of need. Affirmative action in medicine exists because of the bottleneck we have in creating doctors. Quintuple the number of residency seats for specialty triple the number of medical school seats and this becomes a non-issue very quickly.

[@mrmcbeth]

I grew up in a minority area and went to public school with minorities. I've been homeless before. I've lost all my savings multiple times. Hard times tend to beget hard times. I'm white, though. I've always thought the system didn't care about me. However, I did get accepted to two D.O. schools. The first time I was accepted, I couldn't afford the seat deposit and the move. I had to save up all year and apply again. After I get financially stable, I am going to get academic resources to people from disadvantaged backgrounds regardless of skin color. Hopefully, I can put a big dent in this issue.

[@qprtx]

Preach brother. That is a noble cause. Good luck.

[@thefenerbahcesk4156]

I'm also white (at least as far as any official document is concerned), and I also grew up poor. Getting into medical school was tough. I thank God every day. I don't know how I did it. Still, I don't oppose affirmative action. Fact of the matter is, we need more black doctors. And even if its easier for African Americans to get into med school, that doesn't mean they aren't well qualified. They still bust their butts off like anyone else.

[@mrmcbeth]

@@thefenerbahcesk4156 Let me clarify something. My future contribution will account for inequality based on circumstance. By default, this will positively impact disadvantaged minority groups. However, there will not be a judgement based on skin color. This will allow disadvantaged individuals of other races to benefit, too. I'm not simply opposing Affirmative Action. I am recognizing its weaknesses, and planning to offer a new strategy.

[@sasquatch8268]

@@mrmcbeth Beautifully said. As a person of color, I would rather be admitted based on my work ethic, not my skin color.

[@Jennj96]

@@mrmcbeth How will your contributions positively impact disadvantaged racial groups when patients are dying on the basis of race, not class? The issue of affirmative action in healthcare is not upward mobility. It's that we need providers to understand that racism in the healthcare setting is a real problem. I saw a lady yell at a black male patient for having a panic attack in the ER during my second week of clinical rotations. There were many more instances of this sort of thing. Having more POC providers means better care for POC patients.

[@doggieGZ]

As an attending, i can tell you i've had numerous patients refusing black doctors due to assumptions of diversity hire.... its sad.

[@jackjohnson4386]

Same. But honestly, I can't blame the patients. They know this is happening, and they're just trying to advocate for themselves. If we want to put ourselves in a position to call out and condemn racism against our colleagues, then we have to first create a race blind admissions process in medical schools. Then if a patient refuses to be seen by one of my black or Hispanic colleagues, I will feel just fine about telling them they're welcome to go to a different hospital.

[@treasurehollis8040]

@@jackjohnson4386shame on your for even writing this comment. You “can’t blame the patients”…absolutely sick and distasteful. That is literal racism! A Black attending doctor went through just as many test and training as a white or asian one. You CAN blame racist patient because racism in healthcare is INTOLERABLE. I hope you don’t have any clearance in a 1000 yard vicinity of a hospital or clinic with this rationale…absolutely terrible.

[@fleckcadeau2382]

When I was 8 years old and had just migrated from Haiti to New York City with my mother and baby brother. I ended up visiting the ER of a very large hospital on two separate occasions for abdominal pain. On both occasions I was sent home with just gas or a malnourishment diagnosis. After a few weeks the pain become absolutely unbearable and rendered me essentially bed ridden. As I had no appetite and anything I tried to forced down would either make vomit or cause instant diarrhea. My non English speaking mother simply didn't know what to do since she believed the ER would only send me home again. A friend of my mother recommended a black female pediatrician who held free clinic hours for the uninsured. 5 minute into physical exam, she immediately jumped up and said I need to hurry to ER because she believes my appendix ruptured. She wrote a letter and offered to call an ambulance but we just opted for a taxi. After arriving to the same ER that sent me home twice before, my mother handed letter to ER staff and I was rushed into a room for test. A scene I will never forget! A wave of doctors and nurses rushing into my room with consent forms telling my mother I need surgery immediately because it was confirmed that my appendix had ruptured and they feared sepsis. I spent a month in the hospital and had a total of three surgeries done to drain puss out of my abdomen. This was quite sometime ago but what is still very vivid and personally amusing is my treatment after being admitted into the hospital. We were given so many courtesies such as a VIP room, meal vouchers, and free cable. I write this not push any particular political agenda but just to remind everyone that we are all human and make mistakes. However, being human compunded with having certain experiences and interactions can sometimes allow some to see and understand things that other might not be able to.

[@MrPathorock]

this dosen't just happen to you, stop complaining

[@fleckcadeau2382]

@@MrPathorock my full name is depicted. I have nothing to hide in telling my story. However, you hide behind a pseudonym while directing discourteous assertions. Unveil yourself and return then this conversation may continue.

[@jliby1708]

Thanks for telling your story, imo I feel race may overlap slightly with cultural conditioning of our brains. Affecting how we communicate with each other, as a POC I feel like I need to word things differently and unconsciously pretend to be more tolerant to health issues, which could inadvertently cause miscommunication and misdiagnosis with doctors. When I’m talking to someone within my own background or racial identity I subconsciously feel more comfortable to express my feelings and be more transparent. I think this is why it’s so important to have diversity and representation. At the end of the day we’re humans but we are all from such different backgrounds and will tend to relate or be more comfortable with people who share a similar background.

[@carsonmckenna8777]

Amazing video. I really appreciate you having the courage to talk about this. Love your channel

[@hannahcook9477]

I think another cool video would be on research years. I find that with the increasing need to do a research year to get into a competitive specialty it puts those of lower socioeconomic status at a disadvantage for competitive specialties because they cannot afford to pay tuition for another year.

[@camiloiribarren1450]

It really does affect everyone, both those of different cultural backgrounds and those of different economic backgrounds, and what Dr. Jabal said is true: not everyone will think the same even if you come from the same or similar background. We all experience the same things differently, but it is true that us Latinos and Blacks are very under represented.

[@Rogerholberg]

It ain't "positive discrimination" to the white or Asian applicants who don't get admitted because someone with lower objective qualifications is admitted on the basis of race. It's just "discrimination" or, if you will, "affirmative discrimination."

[@jasonlang9074]

Don’t assume that just because an individual gets AA that their scores are lower. It could literally be that they get the designated spot! Not to mention white kids can get preferential treatment over Asian students as well

[@Rogerholberg]

@@jasonlang9074 Oh puh-leeze. Have you ever looked at the typical scores of affirmative discrimination admitees versus white and Asians who were not admitted? The disparities are typically enormous. In Harvard undergrad, the student body is 14.7% black. If objective criteria were relied on it would be only 0.9% black. Yes, not all blacks are admitted with sub-standard objective criteria. Just the overwhelming majority. As to your second point, I don't know that that is true but, in any case, I am not in favor of anyone getting preferential treatment on the basis of race or gender.

[@twoeyes1922]

if you're more upset about some privilege student hypothetically losing his spot but not disgusted by the fact black/brown kids were discriminated so harshly they couldn't even dream about be a physician then you should check yourself

[@Rogerholberg]

@@twoeyes1922 Well Mr. (?) CRT. No. I'm not upset because white and Asian people are not "privileged," and black and Hispanic people are not "discriminated [sic] so harshly they couldn't even dream about be [sic] a physician." People are individuals. Putting people into groups and denominating some "privileged" and others "oppressed" is just Marxism with, since the 1960s, "whites" and "people of color" being substituted in for "bourgeoisie" and "proletariat." Should you need quadruple bypass surgery, or a kidney transplant you should worry about getting the most competent doctor, not the one from what you consider to be "correct" right racial or ethnic group. I know I do. I see no reason to "check" myself, whatever that means.

[@loganmiller6879]

@@twoeyes1922 Both are bad.

[@shanchip1]

A couple points to mention: 1. white women are the main beneficiaries of affirmative action. 2. Let suppose that a theoretical meritocratic system, by chance, produced a medical field with only white physicians. While the assumption is that they are the best for the job, we have to be aware that history has shown (read Medical Apartheid) that the same care is not given to all groups equally. And that is still very much true today (black maternal mortality rate). 3. While of course socioeconomic status is a confounding factor, transitioning to a system that is completely race blind will fail to address the systemic racial inequalities of admissions that occur regardless of status. I.e. the documented biases of clerkship attendings that affect minority clerkship students’ subjective evaluations, subjective biases when interviewing minority students for medical schools. The medical field is just like any industry. Its more about who you know, than what you know. And excelling is highly dependent on whether people like and connect with you, which is greatly influenced on which groups to belong to. The medical education system was never a meritocracy (as minority students were historically barred from entrance) and this shift in paradigm is only being disputed bc it isn’t benefitting who it was originally designed for.

[@edhcb9359]

Look at the scores that white women have to get to gain entrance to medical school. Are they really the beneficiaries here?

[@taike545]

This is a nuanced, thoughtful analysis.

[@shanchip1]

@@taike545 thank you!

[@Threektwookonk]

Was wondering when the 3 ton elephant about affirmative action would get mentioned and you hit it on point #1

[@bonitaapplebaum4202]

@@Threektwookonk 👏👏🙌

[@amidaryu009]

Whenever I hear complaints of quantity over quality, I think back to having to work all throughout undergrad, and my sister being sick with cancer and ultimately passing away my final year. My grades took a hit, but I still did well enough to get accepted, and I think that the people that assume that underrepresented minority students are of a lower caliber really show that they have a blind-spot in terms of understanding that there are stressors that we had to deal with that didn't allow us to perform optimally, and when in medical school or an advanced programme in which we are solely focused on performing, we tend to do just as well as our peers after adjusting to the course-load. To imply that I'm of lower quality/aptitude/intellect because I my undergrad GPA was

[@NN-ko8fu]

Well said. One point is very true that, individuals who come from a lower socioeconomic background and go through those experiences tend to want to go back to those areas. Not saying every minority wants to work in a low income area, but there is a dearth of primary care physicians or physicians working in low income areas.

[@_Trey-3]

Preach 🙌🏽 glad you overcame the odds btw

[@_Trey-3]

@@kansasmypie6466 clearly people are against aa for that reason because african amercians have the biggest socioeconomic gap from every culture and race in America

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

What did your tragic circumstances have to do with your race, creed, gender, sexual orientation, or (to a lesser extent) socioeconomic class? A brilliant mind and strong will has nothing to do with any of those things.

[@_Trey-3]

@@marlonmoncrieffe0728 a brilliant mind and strong will, becomes less when trauma is deep rooted in a persons life and struggles continuously get in the way

[@alyssa220]

Poor white female here who just got admitted to med school this cycle ✋. Here's the thing: one day I will not be poor...but I will always be white. I will never be able to supply the comfort that some of my black patients might need. I might be able to take more special consideration for my patients who are lower-income, but still, I will no longer be a part of that group. I believe that anyone admitted through affirmative action has the ability to succeed and thrive in medical school, if they aren't good enough to graduate then they won't graduate. Assuming that these individuals are lesser than because they got a lower MCAT score is problematic. So many other factors make a great applicant, plus these individuals are probably doing the best they can with the resources and opportunities that they have access to. So my opinion on this is that affirmative action is necessary and valid to advance diversity and increase the amount of BIPOC in healthcare.

[@sebucwerd]

I had terrible acne when I was younger. I don't want a physician who knows what it's like to have terrible acne. I want a physician who will ensure a patent graft, who will stop the bleeding, and chose the optimal course of antibiotics.

[@boojames4424]

@@sebucwerd and Hispanic and black doctors and anyone who go through affirmative will be able to do that bc they will pass through proper training as a dermatologist. It’s just giving these underrepresented groups a chance to get in medical school bc getting high grades and a good MCAT is a privilege

[@alyssa220]

@@sebucwerd First of all, those things don't need to be mutually exclusive. So there's not really an argument there. Second of all, equating acne to race or socioeconomic status is invalid and missing the point. Having a doctor that is trustworthy and understands your concerns regarding affording care is incredibly important for patients (especially patients who experience worse health outcomes due to their race/discrimination). Relating to a superficial condition...not so much.

[@kg-ke1fw]

Cycle hasn't opened yet so...

[@boojames4424]

@@kg-ke1fw read properly she’s talking about the previous cycle bc it just ended

[@LondonBroilSandwiches]

While I applaud Med school insiders courage to make a video like this there definitely were some missteps made or rather ( key points left out ) . I wish Dr.Jubbal would have consulted a sociologist before making this video . -- One key point I think this video should have included is that the income for a middle class or even upper class African American or Hispanic household is substantially lower than Caucasian and Asian households . So for example an African-American who comes from a middle class background while true is most likely to have a higher chance at matriculating into college and subsequently medical school than an African-American student who comes from a lower SES background they are still disadvantaged economically resource wise in comparison to someone who belongs to an over represented group from a middle class family because on average they will have less financial resources compared to someone from a middle class background from an over represented group . Another key point that was left out which I feel should’ve been included which supports the first point I made is the fact that due to racial segregation ( and practices that are still informally in place even though they are against federal law) Black , Hispanic and Native American students on average tend to have less academic , social and other key resources ( e.g access to adequate and nutritious food ) which are are critical to not only to being able to do well in academic environment but just to thrive in general . Affirmative action AKA diversity inclusion programs are a blanket way to take in account of these structural issues and to more specifically look at applicants holistically .A 505 MCAT score and a 3.5 gpa score of a black student who had to work a full time job in undergrad and maybe could only afford to eat once a day isn’t necessarily less qualified or prepared to do well in Med school than someone from an overrepresented group with higher stats and less challenges and more resources to get those stats (e.g could afford Med school insiders services or a Kaplan mcat test prep program ). Moreover in the case of members from overrepresented groups who face similar challenges as the black student in my previous example …members of those groups (e.g Caucasian men from a lower ses , Caucasian women in general and Asians who come from a lower SES ) are actually the leading beneficiaries historically of affirmative action / diversity inclusion programs . *** Caucasian women specifically are actually the leading beneficiary in general for all diversity initiatives in academic and professional settings **. (Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing …. Gender and economic diversity is also important… I’m just highlighting the fact that these programs target more than just Black and Latino students) . Lastly the point made that affirmative action only hurts the perception of well qualified members from URM groups I think is not really accurate or rather a strong point as members from URM groups would still be faced with prejudicial beliefs due to preexisting biases of those who belong to other groups even in the absence of these programs because of the lack of exposure to members from these groups . Due to georgraphic and racial segregation unfortunately many members from over represented groups have had very little contact with members from underrepresented groups Pre-college and Med school .

[@Ai-tj6gy]

Facts 🙌 Normally I think this channel does a good job of breaking topics down and presenting them well, but he reeeeally missed the mark here and missed an opportunity to discuss some of the nuances that people don't know or ignore. He probably genuinely thinks that Asian students having spots stolen from them, when ironically, he runs a company that helps people build their applications, so I'm sure he sees firsthand that a ton of these high scorers have crap apps. I've seen my fair share of mediocre applications, so I know it's not as simple as he's making it out to be

[@LondonBroilSandwiches]

Yeah it’s really obvious who his target audience is in this video . In my opinion not the best way to draw up some more business from this target audience as it perpetuates myths about AA programs and DI programs and overall could be considered as fear mongering .

[@davidlakhter]

This just makes the competition much more difficult and incentivizes more gap years to stand out. Medicine is long as is, this complicates it even more. Honestly medicine is not worth it to get into these days - salaries can't keep up with inflation, treatment of healthcare workers (especially during pandemic) were and are undervalued, it's an insanely long road, undergraduate weed out systems have become insane businesses in themselves, scope/mid-level creep, massive debt, lack of time to build wealth, ton of racial politics throughout healthcare, lifestyle is not the best, the buisness of medicine is centered moreso on optimizing notes rather than patient interaction/even physical exams (going into NP/PA, you feel more like a doctor these days bc of patient time, relatively well level of autonomy, and ability to do many similar things w/o the overhead burden), oversaturation in specialties, lack of incentive and huge barrier to entry to start buisness from medical practice, culmative issues in this process that lead to burnout/bad mental health, etc. Oppurtunity cost would just argue otherwise unless you're going into a procedure-heavy specialty.

[@HABACHI617]

Keep in mind there was an Indian guy who Was rejected from medical school when he applied as an Indian but reapplied as black with the same qualifications and got in

[@NoirFilleChante]

And he eventually still flunked out of medical school.

[@themarathoncontinues4211]

Notice how Andrew omits the fact that the same guy - 1. Was accused of shoplifting multiple times whilst pretending to be black. 2. Was pulled over by the cops and had novel hostile interactions where they insinuated he stole his car. 3. Other NEW acts of discrimination he didn’t face as an Indian. You can’t just take being black in a vacuum as if these other experiences aren’t prevalent as well. That Indian guy was happy to be black, until he served some of the burdens of being black mentioned above. 3. Andrew fails to mention that that Indian guy was Mindy Kalings brother, who got HER break off a diversity program (because people who look HER family face discrimination in entertainment). Can’t make this stuff up. I didn’t even go into the fact that medicine is a service profession, and the role diversity has to play in this

[@daveyjones3016]

Don't forget the part where he failed med school since he wanted to fake the struggle at his 60K a year private college.

[@themarathoncontinues4211]

@@Naijagyal22 Andrew is the guy who made the original comment insinuating that being black is some simple merry-go-round. KEVIN is who I believe you are referring to. I have zero problems with Kevin, he made a decent video from an objective POV. I do feel there are major benefits he didn’t mention, but I respect him for the way he covered the topic regardless

[@Naijagyal22]

@@themarathoncontinues4211 thank you. My mistake

[@sabrinas627]

Would love to see more studies on how affirmative action affects retention rates and success of URMs in med school and beyond. That could also be helpful in understanding the impact and potential benefits/downsides of AA.

[@oalatishe]

Loved this video! I think it's important for everyone applying to med schools to be aware of these factors. Also, " instead of using URM, use the phrase historically [or systematically] marginalized communities [because] by using this language, you are acknowledging that there are communities that have systematically been denied access to economic, political. and cultural participation"

[@malcolmlee6490]

My only problem with this video is this topic is wayyyyy to deep to just do a 10 minute video on. There is a lot of background information that needs to be discussed for someone to truly understand both sides of this topic. To half way explain either side of this is misleading to someone who knows nothing about this situation.

[@appollo1826]

It was fair on both sides. too many nusiances will give favortism to a side or ambiguous merit to the other side. He simply gave one side, then the other side, and his opinion. Now to delve deep in the issue, it will need at least an hour for all of the nuisances to the debate.

[@FW7737]

simple topic: discrimination hurts white/asian

[@j10001]

I’d say he gave it fair time as a summary video. His other videos are at a similar level of detail for equally complex topics. e.g., considering whether cardiac surgery is the right specialty for you also deserves more info than a 10 min primer.

[@theweasel7222]

If medical schools really want to diversify the playing field then they need to put more efforts into helping the underrepresented group in education instead of prioritizing them in medical school applications. That way they will have the opportunity to level the playing field themselves instead of relying on affirmative action. The qualifications of the doctors will not be compromised while creating diversity at the same time. Moreover, the term positive racism is just blatantly wrong and I can’t believe people have this mindset. You cannot solve racism with racism. When an underrepresented applicant gets prioritized over an Asian or white applicant who is more qualified it only increases racism and also lowers the overall quality of doctors for the sake of “diversity”

[@edhcb9359]

Our system for funding primary and secondary education is systemically racist. Poor neighborhoods produce lower income taxes and as a result poorer schools. To combat that systemic racism we have put into place affirmative action for college admissions which in itself is also systemic racism but of course does not begin to fix problems, it just creates more of them.

[@Taylor-ls8kv]

Agreed. But also CBEDH is correct too. AA, funding in primary education, etc is an example of a wicked problem. Way too many co-founding factors to ever fully address the problem. Nobody wins, everyone loses.

[@atherosclerosisheo3379]

@@edhcb9359 Sure, funding to schools is a large contributor, but then it's funding that's the issue, not race. You're saying that "you're black so you must be poor or from a poor background" which is completely wrong. There's poor white neighborhoods, yet they're not helped by any system to get ahead cause according to you and racist schools "white automatically means rich".

[@edhcb9359]

@@atherosclerosisheo3379 Read Patrick Sharkey’s book “Stuck In Place”. It will give you better perspective on what I am talking about.

[@KD-bf9og]

People need to understand that increasing representation in the medical field is NOT compromising the quality of care,in fact it is doing the exact opposite. The US is one of the few places that pretty much gate keeps medical school on both an academic and socio-economic level (medical school is not cheap here). There is a shortage of doctors and the US has among the worst health outcomes in the world, especially for its minorities. Research has shown that increased representation works in favor of the patient, so why not focus on that?

[@shanchip1]

There are no studies that show where minority physicians admitted during affirmative action have poorer outcomes than non-minority physicians. This means that holistic admissions work, preserve a standard of patient care, and get the added benefits of diversity that are mentioned in the video.

[@ceetaylorr]

@First Last It’s also unfair to brutalize people for their race alone, but it happened. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[@rypere1788]

@@ceetaylorr I like how your way of correcting racism is to play a zero-sum game of racism.

[@DaMushroomBit]

The point that many seem to miss is that it is a big issue when a student body or any industry does not reflect our current society. I’ve seen so many crap on the merits of Black, Hispanic and Indigenous applicants while conveniently missing the reasons why AA had to be used in the first place.

[@edhcb9359]

That reason is political correctness.

[@taike545]

@@edhcb9359 try generational economic and educational discrimination, unconscious bias, Jim Crow/racial segregation, nepotism, notions of racial superiority. Maybe those, as well as some political correctness splashed in

[@edhcb9359]

@@taike545 And all of those things are what is driving decisions from the admins in American medical schools (who are known as a whole to be ultra liberal)? Hhmmmm…🤔

[@_Trey-3]

@@taike545 as well as peonage

[@daveyjones3016]

@@edhcb9359 The same people who cry "political correctness" were the same ones stormtropping last January. Don't try to bring your politics in this.

[@niyatsiyum4774]

When I apply, I'll be a ORM (overrepresented group in medicine), and I would like to add a specific example I heard about. A black woman was shot and went to the E.R requesting help with a tingling sensation and shocks throughout her body. Her white doctor dismissed her concerns and told her that she's just going through PTSD. He also suspected her of wanting to get free drugs. This woman remained in pain until her husband took her to a black doctor who immediately ordered scans and tests. I will keep saying this again and again, racial biases don't go away when you're in medical school. Stats, degrees, and hard work can only help you so much with patient interaction. WE NEED MORE BIPOC DOCTORS and if that means my spot is "taken" up by a BIPOC, I didn't work hard enough.

[@ceetaylorr]

A relative of mine just graduated from law school and went to a doctor for treatment. They wouldn’t give them the typical opioid prescription purely because they were Black. It’s a disaster.

[@niyatsiyum4774]

@@ceetaylorr And there's also the mortality rate of pregnant black women (which is higher than any other racial group). This assumption that black women (or people) can't feel pain is racist and will only harm people. This entire field needs to be cleansed of racism.

[@ceetaylorr]

@@niyatsiyum4774 Yep. I refused to be seen by a non-Black OBGYN and all of my specialty physicians are women of color. I will wait months longer for treatment just to see someone who I feel will view me as human.

[@fleckcadeau2382]

When I was 8 years old and had just migrated from Haiti to New York City with my mother and baby brother. I ended up visiting the ER of a very large hospital on two separate occasions for abdominal pain. On both occasions I was sent home with just gas or a malnourishment diagnosis. After a few weeks the pain become absolutely unbearable and rendered me essentially bed ridden. As I had no appetite and anything I tried to forced down would either make vomit or cause instant diarrhea. My non English speaking mother simply didn't know what to do since she believed the ER would only send me home again. A friend of my mother recommended a black female pediatrician who held free clinic hours for the uninsured. 5 minute into physical exam, she immediately jumped up and said I need to hurry to ER because she believes my appendix ruptured. She wrote a letter and offered to call an ambulance but we just opted for a taxi. After arriving to the same ER that sent me home twice before, my mother handed letter to ER staff and I was rushed into a room for test. A scene I will never forget! A wave of doctors and nurses rushing into my room with consent forms telling my mother I need surgery immediately because it was confirmed that my appendix had ruptured and they feared sepsis. I spent a month in the hospital and had a total of three surgeries done to drain puss out of my abdomen. This was quite sometime ago but what is still very vivid and personally amusing is my treatment after being admitted into the hospital. We were given so many courtesies such as a VIP room, meal vouchers, and free cable. I write not push any particular political agenda but just to remind everyone that we are all human and make mistakes. However, being human compunded with having certain experiences and interactions can sometimes allow some to see and understand things that other might not be able to.

[@rehsa2194]

People will hate you for saying this, but this is actually well documented and true that URMs have higher rates of adverse outcomes with white doctors than doctors of their own race. Especially Hispanics with la Guage barriers. The irony is that the alternate isn't true. Even for their slightly lower MCATs and GPAs, UTMs do NOT have higher rates of adverse outcomes relative to their White and Asian counterparts as physicians. 4 yrs of medical school and 4+ yrs of residency do their part at ensuring that all who are practicing are highly qualified. As a PGY4 myself, it's very obvious to me that NOBODY unqualified will make it through this 8 yr gauntlet.

[@michaelabakah8401]

I have question for y'all. Because I can acknowledge your slight disadvantage but will you acknowledge our issue. If you want to end affirmative action, what is your plan to increase diversity in these places? Do you have any ideas on how to right the wrongs of history? I mean this as respectfully as possible, but being a non-black minority is in no way comparable to being a black one. Looking at this from a legal standpoint, Affirmative Action is actually the least they could do. Slavery reparations are set to be at 10-12 trillion dollars. That only includes what was owned to newly freed slaves. It does not include back pay for the hundreds of years where these funds were withheld. It does not include the amount that would be owed to African Americans in a wrongful death suit, with at least 2 million slaves dying in the "middle passage" and however many were killed by slave owners. How about assault and damages? How many were sexually assaulted, beaten, tortured, or treated as medical test subjects? That amount is just slavery. Following that, we have Jim Crow. Many of you love to tell black people to just work harder, and many did. However, that did not last long. Who can we blame for that? Not black people. The best example of this is the Tulsa massacre. A thriving black town all destroyed by a rumor. Hundreds dead, that's more owed in wrongful death. The amount of lynchings would only further add to that. I mean should we talk about the housing discrimination, redlining, underfunded schooling, underemployment, over policing, school to prison pipeline, war on drugs, police brutality, prison industrial complex, racial profiling, etc that followed? I really wish that the biggest issue black people faced was just that they wouldn't get into Harvard with only a 4.0 and 1600. Truth is black people are on survival mode. Because while this country was giving white people and Asian people reparations, it was stealing jobs, removing wealth building opportunities, taking black children from black mothers and so much more to black people. I really don't get why this 1 advantage irks you people so much. Explain please.

[@alyssa220]

Totally agree with this, and honestly it’s mostly people who are unhappy with their own chances at getting into medical school needing to blame a group of people for their own shortcomings. That AND the white people who see this as an example of white people being “oppressed” or slighted in some way. And I say this as a white woman. At the end of the day overrepresented premeds are not owed a med school spot, but if they want it hard enough they can get it. Meritocratic fairness (based on one dimensional statistics such as MCAT and GPA and not perseverance and passion) shouldn’t matter when it’s the patient care that matters most. And I want black patients who rightfully distrust white doctors to see themselves reflected in their medical care.

[@Taylor-ls8kv]

Agree 100%. The idea in medicine is to produce better patient outcome, yes? There is evidence that increased diversity= better patient outcomes, yes ? We have seen that affirmative action does increase diversity in medicine. So, if not AA then what the alternative? I’ll be waiting patiently for someone to explain.

[@adr77510]

Before I say anything, I want to clarify that I am completely aware of the importance of diversifying medicine and I think that the problems with affirmative action, though there are many, are highly exaggerated by people trying to cope with rejection from university. But at the same time, race is an awful indicator of how "under-privileged" someone is. A line that you wrote that particularly bothered me was that "being a non-black minority is in no way comparable to being a black one." Do you think that all black people have the same experiences? And do you really think that no one who isn't black has to deal with awful problems? Who would you say is more "under-privileged?" A black girl who takes piano lessons and has parents who are well off or a white or Hispanic or Asian girl who has to work two jobs after school to provide for her family? And before you say that "scenarios like this don't exist," that black girl was Michelle Obama and she went on to go to Princeton and Harvard Law. Sure, it's far more likely for a white or Asian kid to grow up well off than a black or Hispanic kid (I also don't like how you act like only blacks have a history of oppression. The US is the reason that so much of Latin America is the way it is today, and each year millions of Hispanics face troubles entering the US for a hope of a better life), but that isn't always the case, and simply using financial status as a way to see who is most underprivileged is a far better solution. As for your mention of the historical treatment of black people in the US, what does that have to do with anything? Sure, I understand that these historical moments have set up a systemic racism in our country and because of that many black students are underprivileged, but once again, we can just use financial statuses to show which black students _have_ been the victims of systemic racism in the educational field. If you are trying to tell me that Kanye West suffers from the same racism as slaves in the middle passage did, then you are out of your mind. This is just the same way that you can't compare the experience of a Polish teen today and then say that they suffered from the Holocaust.

[@michaelabakah8401]

@@adr77510 So first of all, why are you attacking black people to advocate for Latinos? Affirmative Action also benefits Latinos, and I do make the argument that Latino people deserve that opportunity as well. Secondly, you guys love to create this anecdotal and fanciful scenario of some rich black person benefiting from Affirmative Action while a poor Asian person suffers. Where you are coming up with this, I have no idea. But more likely, if they are rich, their biggest privilege is economical. And your interpretation of Michelle Obamas childhood is comical. Her dad was a blue collared worker and her mother was a secretary. They rented a small apartment on the second floor of her aunt's building on the SOUTH SIDE of Chicago. That was the same aunt that gave her the piano lessons. Stop making it seem like she is another one of your little rich imaginary affirmative action beneficiaries. And to answer you other questions, not all black people have these issues, but you guys are making it seem like none of them do. As if this isn't a common issue. As if the average household income for black people isn't almost half the national average. And when did I say only black people have suffered? I simply stated that this country made it's wealth of the back of black workers, yet continues to mistreat them. Reparations are deserved. And your last paragraph is so contradictory. You quite literally said what does historical treatment have to do with anything? And answered it (quite accurately I might add) saying that it set up SYSTEMIC RACISM. Systemic racism is literally what it has to do with anything. You guys keep naming these few black billionaires who are unicorns and using them as excuses to pull the rug from under less fortunate black people. Of the very few black billionaires that we do have, many of them were given chances and opportunities. But you guys want to create this narrative that's the children of billionaires are stealing everyone else's spots when that is not the case. Just say that you hate black people.

[@ceetaylorr]

@@adr77510 It’s really not and the way you have downplayed racism towards Black people is proof of why affirmative action is needed. You don’t know what kind of money Michelle Obama had. She could’ve taken piano lessons at a classical academy for serious $$$ or a local initiative in her community for $15 an hour. I’ve done both. You don’t know what Michelle’s financial aid package looked like. My university cost me $65k/year and I was awarded over 40k in scholarships and grants. I am at an Ivy League for grad school and my tuition is free because of my parents. You don’t know what her connections or circumstances were, all you see is a bright , shiny Ivy and you assume she had money coming out of her ears. You are something else.

[@Ai-tj6gy]

ORM (Asian female) 4th year here. If any of you had to read some of the applications that come in, you'd figure out that affirmative action isn't keeping ORMs out, it's the abysmal writing in their personal statements, secondary essays, etc. If you can't even articulate why you want to be a physician, display your positive characteristics in your activities/secondaries, but a URM applicant with lower stats can, it's not your race that's the problem. Maybe if you spent more time working on yourselves, you'd realize that the problem is you showing adcoms what you lack, not what you are. Grow up and take some responsibility for yourself and stop pointing fingers at everyone else for your personal shortcomings, because you'll make the shittiest med students/residents/attendings otherwise. Sincerely, a fed up and disappointed soon to be resident.

[@esthercykim]

completely agree with you on this one!

[@liamwinter4512]

How many drop out of the program?

[@Ai-tj6gy]

@@esthercykim It's nice to have someone that gets it instead of calling me a self-hating race traitor or something like that lol

[@lebronjms2]

You’re not wrong that many ORM applicants who fail to get in have red flags. But I know multiple who are spending most of their 20s trying to get in, and are in deep debt, and they have pretty good applications. Not perfect, but definitely competitive. I know what you’re thinking, something is very wrong with their app. Nope- anything that could be a “red flag” in their apps is accounted for. They interview great. Have great clinical experiences. Research. 508 Mcat. Straight As for the last 100 credits. One girl literally helped create and run a program for UR pediatrics asthmatic patients. Enough to get into at least a single DO school. These individuals are some of the hardest working people I’ve met, and have literally helped other students get into med schools, but haven’t had luck themselves. Imagine how much it must suck to mentor someone who gets in but you yourself don’t. For multiple years. The crazy thing is they’ll keep trying until they get in bc it’s their dream, but you cant tell me the system isn’t against them.

[@LondonBroilSandwiches]

A lot of these students can’t articulate why they want be a doctor because the real answer is they’re only applying to medical school because that’s what their family expects of them and not necessarily that they feel that it is their true calling.

[@annquach6613]

Do Asians speak the same language? Do Asians believe in the same religion? Are Asians of the same socio economic sphere? That is the question to be asked. I do not see similarities between a Hindu, an Indonesian, nor a Chinese, yet all are grouped as an “over represented” minority.

[@anondoggo]

One very talented and caring white male prof just got booted from our university because he didn't meet the department's diversity criteria. I don't care what race my doctor / prof is, I just want the best doctor and prof to do their job. Affirmative action sounds good in principal but it opens up all sorts of ways for bad people to abuse the system. Sad that this insidious woke cancer is creeping in medicine and academia.

[@ericxfresh]

To be accurate, students grouped as non-Hispanic, White are actually underrepresented in medical school, as a percentage of the population. In the 2020 census, that group was 60.1% of the US population and represented 46.8% of US medical students last year.

[@MedSchoolInsiders]

100% total, so if you increase the percentage of URM then you obviously decrease the percentage of other groups

[@oceanwaves5864]

where did you find this stat?

[@ericxfresh]

@@oceanwaves5864 the AAMC's website

[@ericxfresh]

@@MedSchoolInsiders correct! maybe it's more accurate then to describe the group as an "underrepresented majority"

[@daveyjones3016]

Its easy to cry foul at someone using the crutch while denying the legs have been shot.

[@sebucwerd]

the people using the crutch are not from the hood. they are upper-middle class

[@daveyjones3016]

@@sebucwerd Statistically urm students are more likely to come from poorer backgrounds than orms. And the shot legs statement is also a figurative historical one.

[@_Trey-3]

@@daveyjones3016 I love that analogy, its so true especially when the legs keep getting shot

[@daveyjones3016]

@@_Trey-3 Exactly. And then when those legs keep getting shot the narrative shifts to saying that all legs matter or justifying the shooting.

[@_Trey-3]

@@daveyjones3016 yup because it’s easy to ignore the legs when it’s not your legs being shot instead of helping the legs that are in need of help

[@MSWMW]

Absolutely agree with your end advice. I am also an overrepresented minority in medicine who came from a very poor background. Poor like cockroaches and rats in the walls of a run down tenement apartment in my youth kind of poor. I figured out early that I was not going to blame anyone else for my failures but myself. I worked hard to become the best student and when I achieved that, I worked even harder to challenge myself. I currently work in a major academic hospital and let me tell you all, being a doctor, the difficulties don't stop. One has to constantly challenge themselves to be better if not for the sake of your patients. then because it gets BORING mastering your craft and feel like monotony has set in. I am constantly looking for ways to better myself to stimulate my intellectual appetite. I am also constantly surrounded by extremely high achieving individuals from all races and all walks of life. It is INTIMIDATING. I have had success and I have had failures. But the only way I could keep succeeding was to dig deep and learn from my mistakes and figure out how I could do better. I don't wallow in self pity and blame everyone else. I learned the rules so I know how to play by them. Not everything is going to be fair in life so, don't let life take over; you are in control.

[@anondoggo]

You are an inspiration! I hope I can be like you.

[@captaintom7600]

So... How does it feel to hear that, according to this mindset, all your hard work is less important than how you look?

[@NativeBlackAmericanTv]

​@@captaintom7600 See my post above. This guy MAY be the that Asian Doc... who ANYONE would be overjoyed to find. But... medicine is not like ANY other profession...it is NOT, finally, just about a person wanting to get away from poverty. If you are more about the status and not as wanting to genuinely be of service/value to ALL who come through your door, equally? Become an engineer. A businessman. A billionaire genius. Just know... if you're chasing medicine to climb out of poverty? And not "being of service"--equally/more...with respect and consideration for ALL who come through your door? Then maybe others you may not relate well to--are better served by having a medical professional who can and will "relate" to them--with respect and reasonable consideration. The ONE profession where it REALLY matters--is with medicine. America is roughly 61% White/18.5% Latin/13.1% Black/5.7% Asian. "Americans" are better served if the doctors serving folks IN America are--by chance(or design)--closer to their numbers. In truth? At your most vulnerable as a patient? It has mattered.

[@rypere1788]

@@NativeBlackAmericanTv If you (or anyone else) care that much about your clinician's skin color, I have news for you...

[@NativeBlackAmericanTv]

​@@rypere1788 speak your "news", man. Let's hear it. 'Cause Truth is Truth. There are a BUNCH of examples/documented studies where medical folks are not in line with the Oath. And I--along with accounts from MANY others have experienced the "Truth". And history/modern-day STUDIES have plenty examples as well. So get all excited if you want... but "America" WOULD be better off, "Americans" would be better served if those in medical practice more closely represented the numbers of those who need care... 61% White, 18.5% Hispanic, 13.14% Black, 5.67% Asian. Other areas? Matters less to not at all. But on this one? Matters BIG TIME. The studies are out there for differences in how a patient is dealt with/tended to by race. Start there with your "my" 'news for YOU'. With a SOLID doctor? I agree, it ain't the "color" of their skin--it's how they approach "others" in their practice. But medicine is the one area where prides/prejudices matters...AND the documentation is there for you to see--it DOES matter. It's clear with cops... but more quietly(well not so quietly) problematic in medicine. "Love the "balanced/dedicated" medical professionals of ANY color. But the bad-fits-for-what-they do? Where they exist where it is more about prestige and money than "calling", "understanding" and "care". America better served closer to: 61% White, 18.5% Hispanic, 13.14% Black, 5.67% Asian--closer to cultures, sensitivity, care and understanding.

[@Tribuneoftheplebs]

Diversity in medicine is important when it comes to patient outcomes and interaction with the system. Arguments against affirmative action always seem to focus on the "injustices" done to aspiring young students rather than focusing on what policies create the best long-term health outcomes for patients. The point of medicine is to provide a necessary service for the civilian population. Not to provide high paying jobs for the most "deserving" among us.

[@sebucwerd]

excuse me, but blacks deserve the highest quality physicians too

[@KD-bf9og]

Yes! Most dissenters of affirmative action overemphasize the earning potential and prestige that comes from a med career when they should be thinking about patient outcomes. So many studies have shown that diversity improves the health outcomes of what really is a diverse group of patients in the west, so why gate keep this field at the expense of the public??

[@shanchip1]

@@sebucwerd there haven’t been any studies that show that minority physicians admitted during affirmative action have poorer outcomes, so it seems that all patients are getting an equal standard of care with the added benefit of diversity that was mentioned in the video.

[@shanchip1]

@@sebucwerd just to be clear- patients are getting an equal standard of care when treated by a minority vs non- minority physician. Not all patients have equal access the same standard of care due to socioeconomic factors of the patients themselves

[@NN-ko8fu]

@@sebucwerd are you saying they won't because they will have a non-white physician? The core of the argument is that both are qualified, but which one will a long term benefit to patients..

[@noona514]

You handle difficult topics very well on this channel. Thank you.

[@Mcsnoman92]

As a black male nurse. Boy oh boy, can I see the hate.

[@sebucwerd]

The many soft criteria/holistic admissions (volunteering, leadership, narrative, essays) are a convenient cover for racist admissions. The 523/3.95 white male who applies multiple times with be reflexively dismissed as having poor communication and writing skills. The child of Nigerian immigrants with professional degrees who wears designer clothes will be felt to have an unparalleled je ne sais quoi about him or a so-called compelling narrative. In reality, these policies do little to help the intended disadvantaged groups. They do encourage racial conflict and resentment (and sometimes a Pandora's box, as in Sri Lanka), and make the self-anointed, unaccountable people who implement them feel morally superior.

[@edhcb9359]

Exactly right. Our neighbor kid who is one quarter black(but checked “black” on his application) and upper middle class(but used his estranged biological fathers income on his app) is a perfect example of that. Decent but not great grades and scores, had schools fighting over him. Affirmative action is a joke.

[@idkwhattodowithmylife7597]

What makes the Nigerian one “unaccountable” you did not mention his stats at all in your scenario. Why did u mention his “designer clothes” and not mention the white males economic situation at all? Why did you mention Nigerian(an ethnicity) and white(a race) in your scenario. There are so many flaws with your ideology.

[@Tribuneoftheplebs]

Sri Lanka's issues are a little bit more complicated than that..

[@themarathoncontinues4211]

The fact that you are solely focused on what is good for YOU as an applicant without considering what is good for the PATIENTS may play a factor in the lower qualitative scoring bro. This isn’t about you or me in this, it’s a service profession. And in terms of the general population, diversity is proven to improve health outcomes without compromising standard of care. But you are too worried about what’s good for YOU as an applicant. It’s not about you, it’s about patients health

[@csmith4749]

@@idkwhattodowithmylife7597 Why do you feel the need to try and psychoanalyze people in the comments section so that you can try and call them a racist. I'm LOLing at your comment right now XD

[@danhantheman]

Wow 514.5 MCAT for Asian matriculants vs 505/506 for Black/Hispanic matriculants. 8-9 points on the MCAT is huge

[@DarkChasmGamers]

Yeah. Goes to show the level of inequality of education quality that exists in the education system.

[@jorf5506]

I am a black female . That went to public school system in a urban neighborhood. The school system was horrible (still is) . Barely had teachers textbook and desk. Most blacks don’t have good education . So I understand why they do it like this

[@johngrey1074]

15+ IQ points is huge, too.

[@Naijagyal22]

@@jorf5506 same, thankfully i got accepted. People need to question everything. Why is that black students are scoring lower on average on the mcat? Hello! The answer is NOT black people have lower IQ. Racism and colonialism has pushed a lot of minorities, specifically BLACK PEOPLE behind. This is coming from a low income Nigerian female. I barely see people from my background that are in my class 😒

[@dragonfly8485]

@@DarkChasmGamers Education system loves Asians? Why would white people love Asian??? Come on now. Ok I get it about the black people. How about latinos? What disadvantage do they have compared to Asians?

[@antonioecruz]

Medical schools have a greater need to train a diverse class than any other institution of higher education simply because of what they are training their students for. As a Hispanic student, I have a greater capacity to serve Hispanic communities than someone who isn’t from that community. That doesn’t mean that I have an obligation to or that a non-Hispanic physician can’t do great things for the Hispanic community. It simply means that when filling a class, a medical school can assume that the greater number of students from underrepresented backgrounds that are matriculated, the greater the impact on those communities by graduates of said school will be in the future. Socioeconomic status and regional diversity should also be considered (and are!) but racial and ethnic diversity is essential in a field as inextricably linked to the wellbeing of all society as medicine.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

...Then it is up to YOU to meet the high standards instead of medical school meeting your lower ones.

[@antonioecruz]

@@marlonmoncrieffe0728 I think you’re letting your bias cloud your best judgment. I scored a 516 on my one and only time taking the MCAT self-studying. I hope you don’t make assumptions about your future patients in the way you made an assumption about my standards.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

@@antonioecruz What bias? I think you misunderstood. Probably because I was using the royal you. If so, I apologize for any confusion on my part. I was saying that even if diversity is so important, it is NOT up to the medical establishment to change their standard as long as it is neutral.

[@antonioecruz]

@@marlonmoncrieffe0728 ah ok I understand. Yea I think we just differ on where the responsibility lies. In my opinion ideally our society would be structured in a way that accurate representation would occur naturally, but until that occurs I see medical schools as having a responsibility to ensure representation of the various groups that make up our society which we’re committed to serve.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

@@antonioecruz They can ensure representation by simply including all that qualify. Now if more blacks and Latinos want to be worthy of being selected, THEY need to improve their lot (as the Asians do). It is not just on the medical establishment.

[@edhcb9359]

Personally, I would rather have the doctor cutting into me be of the highest quality, not have them “look like me”.

[@Tribuneoftheplebs]

That's fair. Not everyone thinks like you. Plenty of older black patients that really don't trust doctors and the medical profession (Tuskegee experiments, racist experience with past doctors.) If the goal here is to save the most amount of human life than we need more black and brown doctors. Anyone arguing otherwise isn't actually focused on human life and is prioritizing something else in this discussion ABOUT MEDICINE.

[@_Trey-3]

There of been plenty higher quality doctors that have operated on poc and there have been higher death rates associated with poc.

[@_Trey-3]

@@Tribuneoftheplebs exactly🙌🏽

[@edhcb9359]

@@Tribuneoftheplebs Yeah I know when a black person is rushed to the ER while having a heart attack and the family is out in the waiting room hoping somebody can save their life they are probably all really focused on thoughts around the Tuskegee Experiment.🙄 They are all thinking, “the surgeon who saves grandpa had better be black or who knows what they might try and do”. 😂

[@khalilahd.]

Without this there would never be any diversity. We live in a world that was built off of segregation and racism. We need this policy to undo hundreds of years of prejudice. When we live in a world without racial ignorance polices like this won’t be need but until then we need this policy.

[@Piequalse]

One issue I find as a white applicant is opening the application page on the schools website and there literally being a link to apply as a black applicant. Literally telling you that you could have special consideration if only you had a different skin colour. An ORM that doesn’t have an exceptional life situation and decent stats doesn’t have a button to save them from constant rejection.

[@atlas_shruggin385]

As someone in the process of applying right now (and who is looking at re-applying next year), one of the things I really struggle with is people telling me that I didn’t get in because of affirmative action. I cannot tell you how many times it has been said unprompted. The struggle is that my stats were great, and so were my soft metrics like clinic hours. So, don’t know what to respond with. I think the application process is a good one, and needed, but the overwhelming consensus around me is that because I am a white man, I’m a second class citizen in the applicant pool. I don’t agree with that, but golly, it can’t be good for the medical institutions that so many people are walking around saying stuff like “merit doesn’t really matter anymore.” Or “you don’t have a winning complexion.” Again, I don’t think that, I believe that I must not have been the best applicant for the schools I applied to, but the fact that I have had to get into minor debates arguing that doctors are still competent is like something out of the twilight zone. Each time, they cite affirmative action. I think it’s results are more damaging than we know for more reasons than are immediately apparent in school. It is stretching backwards in time to hurt the reputations of doctors and medical professionals before its implementation.

[@themarathoncontinues4211]

I’m glad I don’t have to deal with this affirmative action talk as a medical student outside of the US. It really seems to make people think they are just letting black and brown fools into med school

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

Sorry to hear that, man. Leftists do not understand the Law of Unintended Consequences.

[@niyatsiyum4774]

I'm very sorry that you weren't accepted (yet), and I know I could be "hurt" by affirmative action as an ORM, however there have only ever been good things as a result of diversifying medicine. More advocacy for underrepresented groups, more awareness of racial biases, and etc. If these so called "undeserving" students are actually underserving then they'd flunk out and this problem rids itself. It's a slippery slope honestly.

[@edhcb9359]

What I am hearing is a person struggling to contain their anger towards an admission process that is outwardly and admittedly systemically racist. My advice to you is that next year you ONLY apply to the schools that do not factor race as one of their primary criteria. This means you don’t apply to any schools in places like California(just for example) because you are not wanted there so why bother? There are plenty of schools that value the quality of your application over skin complexion. Only apply to those next cycle. You’ll be fine.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

@@niyatsiyum4774 Aren't unqualified blacks already flunking out or leaving schools because of the pressure?

[@bushidobrown9996]

WHat about the seats that benefit those that are reserved for Legacy kids, that is pretty equivalent to the seats AA gets. Make a video about the legacy kids as well Kevin.

[@Ai-tj6gy]

The difference is URMs that aren't legacy work harder for their spots to actually earn them fully. Dunno why you have to say AA specifically, they aren't the only URMS

[@bushidobrown9996]

@@Ai-tj6gy AA stood for affirmative action.

[@bushidobrown9996]

I am an African American btw.

[@bushidobrown9996]

@@Ai-tj6gy I agree with everything you said. May want to check your bias…

[@Ai-tj6gy]

@@bushidobrown9996 My bad. I'm unfortunately used to my more annoying non-black peers using AA or blacks in a condescending way, so I got bothered. Thank you for correcting me. Nice boondocks reference, too

[@jsphfullmer1]

I think it's inappropriate to lump White and Asian students into a single category. White students are not overrepresented. US population percentage White: 60% US Allopathic Seats percentage White: 42% US population percentage Asian: 5.6% US allopathic seats percentage Asian: 23% By simple percentages of the US population, White students are more underrepresented than Black students, though Hispanic students have it much worse than either.

[@Aziz-eq2kg]

They shouldn’t consider race when deciding who gets in. They should judge your personal statement and interview the highest. I don’t think the MCAT determines who will be a good doctor or not.

[@mpc7440]

If they didn't consider race, the racial demographics of medicine would consolidate between only two races.

[@Aziz-eq2kg]

@@mpc7440 and why is that?

[@Mastervitro]

I bet funding and fixing our schools would be cheaper than Affirmative Action and its consequences.

[@Taylor-ls8kv]

Several things to unpack here.. 1.) Some of the comments underneath this post are DISGUSTING and quite literally exemplify why diversity in medicine is absolutely necessary. 2.) 7:00: weird comparison & without AA it wouldn’t just happen to the “qualified Chinese immigrant.” The under qualified, white medical school applicant who comes from an affluent family would more than likely be picked over the qualified Chinese immigrant, qualified black student, qualified hispanic student, etc. 3.) 7:04 - This one is just funny lol. Sure, we could do the switch to socioeconomic affirmative action vs race based. But, guess what? The majority of black and hispanic applicants would still be “preferred.” Let’s not act like black and brown Americans don’t still make up a hefty % of the lower class here in the US.

[@Taylor-ls8kv]

To clarify NO - I am not suggesting that black & hispanic applicants couldn’t get into medical school w/ out AA. What I am saying is that AA holds medical schools accountable when selecting applicants. Whereas in any other situation that might actually look over URM applicants despite being qualified.

[@nwblader6231]

For 3 although some blacks and Hispanics would still be preferred so would the poor white and Asian people. Why should a black or Hispanic person from a rich family benefit from a program meant to lift people up while a white or Asian person from a poor family gets punished for being from a certain group. Let’s be honest the people this helps the best are the rich hispanic and black people by adding institutional support on top of the stuff affirmative action is meant to play catch-up for like better schooling

[@derek8149]

Honestly if switching to a socioeconomic measure for AA will admit more Hispanic and black applicants, then that would be fair. Blacks, Hispanic, and Asians communities are not monolithic. Not all of them have the same experiences, disadvantages, and opportunities. Which is why socioeconomic status makes sense. But you’d find yourself hard pressed to find many folks who would be willing to endorse admitting a son of a wealthy black family over a son of a poor working class Asian family

[@ceetaylorr]

@@derek8149 I’m here and would do it yesterday. I don’t think it’s as rare as you’d think.

[@maximumovermuslim6337]

it doesn't level the playing field. it levels the winners podiums

[@raea3184]

I think it’s important to understand that minority applicants were being rejected due to their race, not because they weren’t qualified. This is why AA came about. To discourage universities and institutions from doing that. That doesn’t mean that the minorities being admitted aren’t qualified, they absolutely are qualified for admission. It prevents these institutions from rejecting qualified minorities from being rejected based on their race. Also important to keep in mind that white women benefit the most from affirmative action. Affirmative action doesn’t just focus on race. As the video says, affirmative action targets underrepresented groups and white women belong to that group.

[@arminiuscherusci2850]

Do you have any evidence that minority applicants are rejected due to their race? How come Asian is overrepresented despite being a minority in the country?

[@raea3184]

@@arminiuscherusci2850 The positive stereotypes Asians have may have something to do with it. Idk.

[@raea3184]

They’re a minority but the “good” minority.

[@arminiuscherusci2850]

@@raea3184 so you basically don’t know for sure and have no evidence if minorities are being rejected due to their race. You just see blacks and Hispanics as “victims” of racism and need to be compensated. Typical liberal victim mindset.

[@raea3184]

@@arminiuscherusci2850 ok

[@_Trey-3]

I’ll just say this good stats does not make you a good doctor, I wish medschools would realize that

[@boojames4424]

Exactly it’s not about the gpa and MCAT. It’s about ur background and ur story. And AA and Hispanic students have a story to tell and it’s more interesting than privileged white and Asian students

[@_Trey-3]

@@boojames4424 I think the mcat is important

[@boojames4424]

@@_Trey-3 the MCAT is about basic sciences that u learn in undergrad. It’s important but it’s not the end all. A good MCAT doesn’t equate being a good doctor or a good person. That’s why med school are looking at factors outside of an MCAT score

[@kg-ke1fw]

Yep

[@kg-ke1fw]

@@boojames4424 actually half of it is, the other is a bunch of bs that's not even covered.

[@terracebrooks320]

Black and Hispanic students also faced segregation and discrimination and not just disadvantages or obstacles, when applying to medical school in the past. Affirmative Action was never meant to be the only deciding factor during the selection process involving medical school students. However, the issue of unfairness, arose based on a popularly prevalent assumption among white and asian students that people of color have gotten where they are, due to an Affirmative Action decision, rather than their hardwork to meet established school acceptance criteria.

[@LondonBroilSandwiches]

Exactly !!

[@aesha8689]

the crazy thing is, white women benefit the most from affirmative action. lol

[@loganmiller6879]

Affirmative action uses race as a factor. Race should not be a factor.

[@grb_electric2395]

Are white applicants still considered overrepresented even if they make up a much smaller amount of medical students than they do in the general population?

[@Aaron-cc7yq]

Good job addressing this topic in a society that would love to cancel you just for even talking about the downsides of affirmative action. I knew a doctor at a medical school in Pennsylvania that was kicked off some board at the medical school and possibly about to lose his job bc he published a scientific article about the negatives of affirmative action. Sad world we live in for free speech at the moment.

[@ijeomaoliviaokeke9943]

did justice to the video. love to see it!!!!! tough tough subject

[@jackjohnson4386]

Of course I agree with all your closing comments - there are lots of things in your control that will allow you to maximize the strength of your application. But ultimately, I think that the arguments against AA in medical schools are much stronger than the arguments favoring AA. I was a victim of AA at every step along the way in my education. I had a 4.0 GPA in college and a 42 on my MCAT, and I had and extremely strong background with regard to research and volunteerism. I will never be comfortable with the fact that if I were black or Hispanic, I would've gotten into any medical school I applied to. But I didn't, because my race is "overrepresented" in medicine. The proponents of AA want to convince us that racism against Asian Americans and whites, and sexism against men, it acceptable for the greater good. It's not. What we need is a zero tolerance policy against racism and sexism. And that means you can't have AA.

[@anishtamboli1357]

To those supporting affirmative actions, as an Indian,it's not worth it.just looked how it affects Indian college admissions and you will see

[@forrest7482]

Wow bravo to you for making this video and actually giving a fair representation to both sides of this argument. It’s so hard to find anyone that will speak against race based affirmative action since the people that are for it will usually attempt to “cancel” dissenters of their opinion and write them off as racist. I am personally very against race based affirmative action after seeing the harms it causes on both sides. Have an underrepresented minority friend who got in last year solely based on her stats and application (513 mcat/3.9 gpa). She broke down in tears talking about how she was afraid everyone would think she only got in cause of her race. One of the many unintended consequences of race based affirmative action that you explained beautifully

[@themarathoncontinues4211]

Eh. Do kids of rich parents wonder if they only got in because they’ve had their parents funding their entire lifestyle in college, so they didn’t have to work and could just study? Do legacy students ever wonder if their spot is meritocratic? I feel this is applicable to many groups but people only focus on it for affirmative action.

[@forrest7482]

@@themarathoncontinues4211 that’s because affirmative action is so inherently racist. It assumes that diversity is achieved best in racial standards yet doesn’t care about intellectual diversity. If affirmative action was based on socioeconomic status, it would still disproportionately positively affect minority students yet wouldn’t be viewed through a race

[@themarathoncontinues4211]

@@forrest7482 You could make the argument that the other two groups I mentioned are so inherently classist. And it depends on the end goal. Medicine isn’t about what’s good for the applicant or doctor, it’s about what’s good for the wider population. Diverse healthcare teams are proven to be better for the population, end of.

[@sav0405]

If she's crying over that, she's in for a ride

[@abcgums3107]

Considering that we have asians who are rejected even with > 515 MCAT and sky high GPA like 4.5 or more, then yes. She really needs to reconsider why she got in

[@vincentnguyen5013]

these comments are a dumpster fire on both sides of the argument. This is like saying the war-refugee southeast asian immigrant applicant is more privileged and "ORM" than if Jaden Smith did clinical volunteering, got a 510 MCAT, and decided to go to med school since he was tired of his mom and dad's antics.

[@avagreenwell9847]

You should make a "so you want to be..." for oncology

[@itscrafttimeroadto200subs2]

You help me alot about medical school requirements and all and all thank you so much dr 😊😊

[@edhcb9359]

As long as certain groups are admitted to medical school under lower standards they will be judged as such when they are physicians.

[@sebucwerd]

If the ad coms judge based on group membership, patients will have little choice but to do so crudely as well, which is unfair to those blacks who were qualified and got in on their own individual merit

[@edhcb9359]

@@sebucwerd You are right. It is unfair to the black physicians who deserved to go to medical school based on their qualifications and not just their skin pigment. But the public will never know that was the case will they?

[@ouidteashrooms]

Judged by who? Some fool in youtube comments? 😹

[@edhcb9359]

@@ouidteashrooms Judged by society.

[@dragonfly8485]

@@ouidteashrooms you are too naive. wow

[@TS-ee7jx]

Probably my favorite video from Kevin!

[@itslash8493]

*the deemphasis on objective metrics like test scores in favor of subjective metrics like personality and the story you tell in the essay should not creep into med schools but unfortunately it has*

[@KD-bf9og]

We shouldn’t discount qualitative metrics altogether though. Having a high test score doesn’t always translate to better patient care. There are plenty of booksmart people that just don’t have the emotional capacity to deal with patients properly

[@themarathoncontinues4211]

If you think that medicine is solely about objective metrics, you’ll have a rude awakening

[@LondonBroilSandwiches]

The reason it has is because of the significant population of physicians who had stellar metrics however aren’t the best care providers . Med schools realize metrics do not translate to being the best provider . Empathy , communication skills and being team oriented are really critical to being an excellent physician . The mcat and your gpa don’t measure that .

[@ilovanime12345]

the racists in these comments is hilarious. mcat and gpa do not equate to a better or smarter student or if they’ll even be a good doctor… also a lot of that has to do with resources and money as well

[@rehsa2194]

They equate to a better student some, just not past a certain point. You get diminishing returns past that certain point. ADCOMs know this. Nobody is arguing weather black/Hispanic applicants with 2.5 GPAs and 400 MCATs should ever matriculate into medical school. But a 3.6GPA vs a 3.8GPA, or a 520 MCAT vs a 570? You'd be hard pressed to predict which student would succeed or fail in medical school, and even harder pressed to guess the success or failure of their future career, or which field they'll even practice in. There would likely be NO correlation.

[@derek8149]

Thanks for an amazing video! My problem with race based policies is that how can you quantify all the disadvantages black people go through into 8.5 points less than Asians on the mcat? How did these adcoms come up with this number? Like one day they all sat down and says Oh yes, this black applicant deserves to have 8.5 points less to get in because of X years of discrimination, Y years of slavery in his family history, and Z number of micro aggressions they faced… there’s no way to accurately prove that what you faced deserves that specific preferential treatment. Socioeconomic factors on the other hand should be the factor that is considered because they are actually quantifiable.

[@edhcb9359]

Ok Derek, so all black people are disadvantaged? Are all black people 100% black? At what point do they stop being disadvantaged? When they get to be 10% black? 15%? My half black neighbor went to Harvard and his quarter black kid grew up with a family income of $500k but yet that kid checked “black” on his med school application and was accepted with very mediocre stats and experiences to multiple schools. That’s what the current system is catering to and who is winning.

[@hi-mj5oi]

@@edhcb9359 what do you mean disadvantaged?

[@derek8149]

@@edhcb9359 Exactly my point! We're on the same page - you can't quantify race. You can't quantify disadvantages/experiences/family lineage of a person and boil it down to one number on the mcat. On the other hand, you can quantify the 500K income that your neighbor's family has and their net worth and scrap race entirely cus that's just not realistic.

[@edhcb9359]

@@hi-mj5oi Proponents of affirmative action presume that all minorities are low intelligence, low income children of a society that hates them and that they cannot succeed with their helping hand. Of course nothing could be further from the truth.

[@derek8149]

I just wanted to copy paste my response to a black applicant who brought up her own experience growing up in a predominantly black community with a bad school district further down in the comments. This is super important. “I understand that some black communities have disadvantages, but I think it's really hard to justify that black applicants deserve 8.5 points less on the MCAT compared to asians for example. Like how do they even come up with this arbitrary number? How can the differences in experiences of black individuals and asian individuals be boiled down to a single number? It can't. On the other hand, I think what you were describing (communities that had barely functioning education systems, not very good teachers, low resource communities) is actually socioeconomic factors rather than racial factors. This is much easier to quantify. You can look at a family's net worth and income. You can look at the average community funding. You can look at the average community's net worth. Then you can make a much better determination about whether this student deserves preferential treatment and actually quantify the disadvantage that they had compared to other students (rather than arbitrarily saying black race = 8.5 extra gimme points on the MCAT). Like the video said, the son of a black doctor is going to have way more advantages than the daughter of asian refugee immigrants. So why base it on race when it's not quantifiable, and not realistic in all cases? Let's think this through logically. Thanks for your comment!”

[@gdaymates431]

We've never actually lived in a true merit based system anyway. Most people who are wealthy have inherited it. Most celebrities got to where they are because of family or friend connections. Most start ups start because daddy was the first investor. Medicine is one space in life where diversity is extremely important. People want to be served by people who look like them/that they can identify with. A medical school with 200 students and 10 black students is simply not good enough!

[@jackjohnson4386]

+gdaymates431 *"We've never actually lived in a true merit based system anyway."* That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for a merit based system. Your argument is essentially like saying that two wrongs make a right. *"Medicine is one space in life where diversity is extremely important. People want to be served by people who look like them/that they can identify with."* What people want and what we should do are two different things. Many people like to be served by attractive women. Does that mean we should select for attractive women in medical school admissions? Of course not, because that has nothing to do with their qualifications as a doctor. People may say they want lots of things, but the right thing to do and the best thing for health care in general is to select the most qualified individuals, and race does not factor into that.

[@jamesbedukodjograham5508]

​@@jackjohnson4386Well said.😊

[@Davo2times]

affirmative action has never taken a spot from a highly qualified candidate. worry about being the best applicant you can be and not Affirmative Action.

[@honestabe9397]

@First Last Ahhh so you have access to all 155 accredited MD schools admissions criteria?

[@honestabe9397]

@First Last Playing dumb is exactly what you are doing. You don't have complete evidence to support your claims, but your narrative is too strong for you to move off of

[@mpc7440]

@First Last You are arguing with people from a continent with an average IQ of below 70. You will not get through to them.

[@honestabe9397]

@First Last Well according to data, white woman benefit the most from AA. So that kills your stance to say it's effective in discriminating against whites. Asian Americans and Whites are well represented in these institutions year after year so to say they are discriminated against is foolish. If you were not too lazy, you would look up and learn that the minorities who do get in, an overwhelming majority meet or exceed an institution's average standing. ".....AA is controversial because it's effective in discriminating against Whites and Asians If it wasn't, no one would care about it because it didn't affect anything....." So if it was affecting demographics that are non Asian and White, you are confirming that YOU do not care. Why am I not surprised lol.

[@honestabe9397]

@@mpc7440The fact that you believe that an IQ test is somehow the best way to measure intelligence is laughable.

[@josechacon6015]

The problem is that they want quantity by sacrificing quality. At the end, what you want is someone with mental capacity and intellectual capability of doing their job. This is very important because no matter how many years of practicing, rather couple years or couple decades, we are all judged based on these basis from our colleagues, patients and the community we serve. IN addition, no matter how you look, if you demonstrated that you are capable doing your job with positive results, I am sure you will be a success no matter what race or gender you are because your actions speaks more than words

[@appollo1826]

Qualitive measures are subjective when it comes for the best to the job. Just because youre good at standardized test does not mean you have what it take to be a doctor. Also, just because you're medicore at standarrized test does not mean you dont have what it take to be a doctor. Qualititve measure are built through the individual lifetime not just from test. Who say that person with the low MCAT score will be a terrible doctors? We need to start looking at the whole picture inside of this one minute quality to define a capable med student.

[@josechacon6015]

@@appollo1826 Not everyone will do well in exams, agree. However, once you go beyond that is where your qualities will be demonstrated and for some they do things that no paper exams can measure( thus why some with very high STEP scores don’t get match). As the old saying in the military “ what’s on paper is one thing, what you do in the field is another”

[@yeknomican]

I think this was incredibly well made. I would just say there is one point for me that wasn't emphasized enough. At the end of the day Higher Education is highly valued in our society yet is a harshly limited resource and that's the root of the problem. I am pro-affirmative action but don't believe it is the fairest solution; however, I think it is much fairer than the alternative of leaving it up to probability. Even if you just based admissions off the most qualified, the proportion of most qualified black/Hispanic students to every other race is significantly smaller. At that point, if you just leave it up to chance the scenario turns into shaking a jar of 990 grey marbles (every other race) and 10 brown marbles (black/Hispanic) for 3 seats in med school. Over time the odds would result in the eventual washing out of these students from higher education indefinitely which I feel is unacceptable. I do agree that other factors other than race should be taken into account as well such as socioeconomic backgrounds, family dynamics, and undergraduate schools. I myself am a Black Male medical student and I empathize with the white/Asian premed applicants working incredibly hard for acceptance. Ultimately its a very tricky situation but I'll end off by reiterating that the main cause is the strict limitations on higher education and I believe a more equitable solution would be revamping the medical education system by altering Medicare to allow for more residency spots to make it so schools could take on more students as well as the continued push to open new medical schools focused on primary care.

[@jackjohnson4386]

*" At that point, if you just leave it up to chance the scenario turns into shaking a jar of 990 grey marbles (every other race) and 10 brown marbles (black/Hispanic) for 3 seats in med school. "* Hold on. You do realize that black Americans make up a greater percentage of the US population than Asian Americans, right? And that doesn't even account for the fact that "Asian" encompasses a variety of different groups, all of which represent an even smaller minority. The premise of your argument isn't even correct. Furthermore, your marble analogy doesn't make sense. Medical school admissions happen every year. Over a large number of years, the probabilistic variances would average out. Increasing the number of medical school positions isn't a bad idea, but there is no justification for the racist and sexist policy that is affirmative action.

[@yeknomican]

@@jackjohnson4386 so in regards to your first point yes you’re right Asian American make up a smaller percentage and encompass a wide diaspora. That said I think the limited seats effecting Black students are clearly also effecting Asian students as well by the very fact that despite their proven excellence across all ethnicities their numbers falter in higher education and I think the limited seats issue far trumps any dent Affirmative Action has had at restricting them access (though I don’t deny it has some effect on it as well). I just think Harvard opening up an auxiliary branch in DC or something (which they are way more than capable of doing) and fixing the public schooling system in inner cities with poorer americans does incredibly more to fix the issue than killing affirmative action and should have been addressed before hand. As for the marbles you are also technically correct but have to consider the quantity we’re talking about. In my example alone it would take 100 trials before a black marble is selected. That’s 100 application cycles. That said in reality tens of thousands of students apply for med school and millions apply to college which would take many many many more years/cycles to equilibriate which isn’t fair nor logical to allow. On top of all that most Asian Americans reside in NY, Cali, Texas, Penn (about 3/4ths) home states of most the best colleges while Black Americans are mainly scattered across the south, NY, Chicago, DC and a few other cities. I don’t say this in any resentment to Asian Americans just to say that having a home state advantage in college admissions is huge and also tilts the probabilities. I also didn’t even begin to go into all the factors that have resulted in many Black Americans being educated in less than ideal high school systems which is another huge area for progress.

[@yeknomican]

Also we’re not talking directly the proportion of Asian Americans and Black Americans in the US - I’m saying the proportions of Asians with the appropriate stats/etc to get in these top programs vs Black students also with these stats which quite possibly could be far less evidenced by Asian Americans larger proportion in IVY league and Elite non-Ivy schools (20-30%) compared with their US proportion (5-7%). Again most likely related to the whole public schooling situation, living circumstances, availability of resources, disproportionately effcting Black Americans etc etc.

[@vans4lyf2013]

Hi Kevin this was a pretty good analysis. Of course there's only so much you could say in 10 minutes about this extremely dense topic, but I also think you missed the elephant within the room within the elephant in the room (lol), which is that white women are the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action, which I don't see as a bad thing as they have historically been oppressed and denied access to education and this is to correct for that, however that would highlight the point that affirmative action is not just race-based, but intended to give a leg up to all historically underrepresented groups.

[@taemyhon8625]

Love your videos! Can you make a video on pathology? I'm planning to choose pathology for my specialty and hope to know more about it

[@AE-zl7gk]

Asian: Accepted: 46% Matriculated: 44% African American: Accepted: 39% Matriculated: 38% Latinx: Accepted: 47% Matriculated: 44% White: Accepted: 44% Matriculated: 42%

[@kevinnguyen4055]

Honestly kinda bad for Asians considering their mcats lol. The disparity between Hispanic and Black students is stark though

[@TheTheaterThug]

Thank you for saying what we who are still in medicine cannot say for fear of being cancelled, hence why my username is not my real name but a Drake and Josh reference

[@RockyLee809]

Hi, this is an interesting video you did on a hot topic, weighing in on the pros and cons of affirmative action. Related to this, I am wondering if you can do one on affirmative action related to gender? Males are now an obvious minority in medical school; additionally, mainly females are featured on medical school and residency programs webpages and advertisements. I am wondering if you think this can be discouraging especially to young males considering entering the field of medicine? What are your takes on this issue?

[@GYX2021]

Wow, kudos to you for speaking about the elephant in the room

[@yuvrajsingh230]

Hey dr Jubbal, you shud make a video about the ending of affirmative action in 9 American states and how that’ll affect medical school admissions

[@MedSchoolInsiders]

Thanks for the suggestion! Have you seen our earlier videos on affirmative action?

[@jeanetteraichel8299]

I disagree 100%. Much like hiring employees, recruit the best possible candidate with the best possible chance of success. What are the failure/drop out rates of those who take a better qualified candidates position?

[@mizzannie001]

The best candidates are chosen. No one wants a doctor who can study all day and night but has no people skills and no common sense and this is common with these 4.0/528 students. They spend all their time studying and never touched grass.

[@taichai5346]

can you do "so you want to be a vascular surgeon?" video please and thank you

[@rhodeyeu]

excellent breakdown! are you gonna make a vid on the ucla scandal?

[@MedSchoolInsiders]

Yes! Dr. Jubbal will discuss it over on the Kevin Jubbal MD channel next week - kzbin.info

[@shirleyxia9988]

Everything is about race with americans.

[@oceanwaves5864]

It's literally a country built on racism though (killing off/displacing Native Americans, enslaving/discriminating blacks, putting asians in camps, etc.)... It's unfortunate, but it's ingrained deeply.

[@mpc7440]

Because race is important

[@shirleyxia9988]

@@mpc7440 american

[@mpc7440]

@@shirleyxia9988 I'm from Spain

[@kali3828]

Because no other country is as diverse, this issue is unique to us.

[@cazaresg1]

As a half hispanic and half asian girl i do not know how to feel about this lol

[@pauldegregorio6432]

Affirmative Action at this professional level is crap. Being different is compelling just doesn’t have to be a protected difference. I was and am a conservative sarcastic sincere upper middle class applicant that made mistakes but rallied in graduate school. Luckily the Dean of Admissions used his pick on me because he thought I earned it and the school could use a guy like me. I never forgot that.

[@Thurgoodstubbs.]

You can't just look at numbers and say, black people are getting in easier. In my experience, the difference I seen in many African American vs Asian and white applicants is the great diversity of experience and extra curriculars. In my experience, it's those hard to quantify metrics that really gets you a spot. I've seen a good black applicant with a 3.9 & 515 rejected because she didn't meet the standard of ECs. & I've seen an Asian with a 501 that was interviewed... There's no stealing spots, it's more than numbers. & we never say, okay let's take the black over the white applicant. If they're both qualified, they both get a seat. We never choose one applicant over another. & if all you have is research and one-time volunteer experiences, then yeah, even with a 526, you won't get in.

[@MedSchoolInsiders]

The argument that on a population level across tens of thousands of students, there’s such a massive difference in extracurriculars (on a population level) to account for the absolutely massive gap in GPA and MCAT across those populations is highly improbable and, to be frank, not rooted in reality

[@Thurgoodstubbs.]

@@MedSchoolInsiders my point is this, you can't make any definitive statements by comparing numbers alone. As you know, numbers are ONE aspect of the application. & in order to really determine if one applicant is better than the other, you'd have to do a large scale applicant by applicant analysis looking at various metrics and data points. But to look at ONE SINGLE metric vs race. Just numbers alone? Can't see how you can make any conclusions about admissions on that alone when the application is based on so many things.

[@Thurgoodstubbs.]

@@MedSchoolInsiders also, it's really not that much a stretch when you consider where most of the applicants are coming from. The majority of black applicants are coming from a small number of HBCUs. & these schools know how to get students in. These schools tell their students, from freshman year what extra curriculars and volunteer experiences and research experiences to do. So if the majority of black applicants are coming from small schools with great premed programs, then it's no doubt that the majority of black applicants will have a much greater realm of experiences and curricula, compared to large state schools that leave their students to fend for themselves, with poor premed advisors that say things like, "med schools do not want to hear about your non-medical related experiences on your application".

[@BrianErwin]

i agree there's no such thing as stealing spots, but it is a fact that africans do get in easier. barely any of us are applying. also, having diversity of experience and ECs is fairly easy to get. that 3.9 with 515 can easily fix her ECs and personal statement and will be a shoo-in the next cycle. she just needs guidance

[@Thurgoodstubbs.]

@@BrianErwin she got in to med school, she just did not get into this one specific program because got us she did not meet the standard. I was on the admissions committee at a school that was ranked by US News as top 5 in the country for number of African American students. We accepted on merit and merit alone. We did not have a number of seats allocated to minorities, yet we still have some of the most in the country. If you were good, you got in, if you weren't, you did not. And that was it.

[@sisygambis.]

cant you just tick the box to say that your black in the application? like whos gonna look for proof for it? i can say im a very light black person and a desendent of slaves, how they gonna prove im wrong?

[@robbob5258]

Incredible video, super detailed!

[@cannonnelson4173]

Great video addressing a very touchy subject.

[@mustang8206]

Maybe we as a society shouldn't be so obsessed with skin color

[@estrogen_intolerant]

What is the relationship between diversity and competence? Nothing.

[@edhcb9359]

The relationship is political correctness, not patient outcomes.

[@bluethunder9102]

What’s is the relationship between diversity and having a provider you can trust. Something.

[@edhcb9359]

@@bluethunder9102 How racist!

[@kg-ke1fw]

Yep but that's the legalized racism

[@kg-ke1fw]

@@bluethunder9102 none unless you're a racist

[@saintcrx6567]

URM here. I will say that it’s important to not help individuals who are URM solely based on their race. A better population to help will be individuals from low income areas (regardless of race). As a Hispanic, I can tell you my experience is different than other Hispanics who also got into medical school. I have a friend who played the I am Mexican and want to help Mexican people card. He did not even speak Spanish and is super wealthy. He went to the best private schools, his parents were doctors and even admitted to me he got doctors to sign off on hours for him. Hell, he even admitted to me that his parents are paying his education. I feel it’s unfair to help individuals like these just because they are Hispanic. With that being said, there are so many ORMs who complain that they did not get in because their spots were stolen. This is the victim mentality showcased here and I think it’s hilarious. Simply do better lol.

[@loganmiller6879]

Then why is Affirmative Action needed. Get rid of Affirmative Action and any subsequent achievements will be recognized.

[@loganmiller6879]

Affirmative action is negating the positive achievements of hispanics and blacks.

[@khalilahd.]

Without this there would never be any diversity. We live in a world that was built off of segregation and racism. We need this policy to undo hundreds of years of prejudice. When we live in a world without racial ignorance polices like this won’t be need but until then we need this policy.

[@edhcb9359]

You are saying because certain races aren’t capable of competing on their own merits? Wow. Now that’s racist!

[@kg-ke1fw]

Lol

[@thunderfreeze1544]

So your answer to racism is to have discrimination through affirmative action? Why should a rich black applicant have preference over a poor Asian applicant? Smh

[@daveyjones3016]

Exactly.

[@atherosclerosisheo3379]

Umm no, the west was built off of freedom and capitalism. For literally thousands and thousands of years before the 1700's, everyone was basically a serf/peasant so nobody had freedoms. It was until the enlightenment when people's rights were finally being talked about. Sure, it took longer for some groups, but in the grand scheme of things not really that long. It was another 100 years for slavery to be abolished (in the west mind you cause the middle east was forced by the west much much later and it is still happening now). Another hundred for women to get voting rights and such. And yea its not perfect yet, but 200 years compared to 7000 years of oppression of everyone doesn't seem that bad to me. Having racism going the other way won't solve this. Saying this as a brownie boi myself and I doubt you can say you're oppressed much as you type this on the internet on your $600 phone or laptop sipping your overpriced starbucks mocha caramel latte.

[@pianonime]

It's a little jarring to see that I'm one of only 4 East Asians in my medical school class. I guess "asian/pacific islander" means the whole fucking continent.

[@ttly8144]

I am seeing this video and crying from india….where medical schools have 70 percent seats reserved for affirmative action

[@EternalKernel]

They should reserve seats for poor students.

[@RondelayAOK]

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Harming Asian and White individuals harms these individuals. Group think is a mental error.

[@savannahf8721]

As an African American woman that has applied to medical school, this system is broken. No I do not believe I had an advantage, I have only been accepted to 1 school so far, and I had to work 10x harder to get access to resources to prep me for the MCAT/app cycle and so forth. I will be the first doctor in my family lineage. When I look around me when shadowing, my clinical experiences, and etc I am VERY underrepresented. 2% of doctors are Black American women.

[@mpc7440]

Maybe you just aren't as qualified lol

[@owenpampo4120]

Regents of the University of California v. Bakke 1978

[@LondonBroilSandwiches]

The passage of Proposition 209 (also known as the California Civil Rights Initiative or CCRI) in November 1996