AI and The Future of Art with Steven Zapata - Art Cafe

[@qaztim11]

This podcast made me feel depressed, hopeful, then depressed, then hopeful again, and by the end of the video i realized that I am not in a position to make any structural change, so i will keep making art and appreciating human art, this helped break a creative block so thanks i guess?

[@daveyjones.]

I've been on the same rollercoaster over the past while. I hate to admit that a large part of me now wishes I had no investment in creative work, so that I could enjoy seeing the technology from the sidelines. But then what would life be?

[@GnaReffotsirk]

Dont worry about what others say and just do art as if it's the 90's. Do it for your sake and youll be happier.

[@Hadoken.]

@@GnaReffotsirk Your advice is like the idiot playing the violin while the titanic is sinking and being adamant it's an earthquake.

[@CrniWuk]

@@daveyjones. I think we will see some very drastic changes here soon. For example OpenAI not only is developing image generators but also algorithms which pretty much do the same with programming. Text to Code, if you so will. You describe a problem, for an app or website and the AI throws you some code out that you can copy paste and use for your project. And it's actually pretty impressive aleady. And you know what's funny? You find the same "discussions" in the comment section with programmers saying a lot of the same things creatives do XD. Some say it's just another tool don't worry, others say this will replace us and so on. Actually funny when you think about it. And I wonder, where will this technology be in 10 years? Like will the AI actually make software on their own? Like games? We will see this happening in a lot of professions I think. There is a lot of development going on that we don't hear about or don't have on our radar. Hell, some companys out there are "training" robots to do the work of handyman. Machine learning is a very unversal concept. And we will see a lot of applications for it.

[@jht3fougifh393]

@@CrniWuk There's a definite difference between programming and art. To suggest otherwise is just silly. Most things have a level of creativity to them. That isn't all there is.

[@stealcase]

"'So in this utopia, do we make the art or do the robots make the art?' That's such a low level question considdering how big the questions are, and look at us! We're tearing eachother apart over this simple question!" Insanely insightful by Steven Zapata. Thank you for that.

[@haseeb5414]

Hey boy, no one stop you from doing art in Utopia. You can do whatever shit you want, but there will be robots that will do all for you.

[@Spiritbox12]

@@haseeb5414 although i believe AI art lacks dynamism and feeling

[@biomuseum6645]

@@haseeb5414 no amount of tech will make a utopia

[@saullandiof5768]

yeah that was a great point

[@kompak]

Any one who utters words such as "i am making utopia! " , their sanity status should be questioned. See, Those who made this "ai art" program have already stepped on many peoples heads with no regards for anyone, including the artists and peoples privacy etc... If they will continue, and not be stopped, or heavily regulated, it could become very dangerous situation. Because you know... There are drones out there.. With rockets and machine guns... There are 3D printers...

[@pravum3150]

Glad to see an Art Cafe comeback! Hopefully we see more in the future

[@AhmedAlbastaki]

I hope this podcast sparks the right people to get the legislation of this in the right direction. Thank you both

[@dronenews4964]

it would be like trying to stop a lightning strike

[@Pedrosa2541]

Law only benefit the already powerfull, is like the devil contract.

Artists may whine, but this is so much bigger than "just" art. The whine of the artists is a blip on a much bigger map. AI will push humans forward essentially in all fields, which also means you need to adjust. I as a Senior Software Engineer can clearly see that an enormous change is around the corner for me. My job will absolutely be completely different in just a few years. And when AGI comes, well enjoy the ride, everything we know will change.

[@ricardoao19]

The argument of "poverty is almost down to 0" is VERY unvalid. The COVID pandemic shows a level of economic crisis that completely debunk this argument. We have 120 million people starving in Brazil, so the reality shows a very different angle about this; meanwhile we have many new billionairs around the world. So yeah, I think the future regarding AI is very, very grim, and will only make the rich people more rich, and the poor more poor.

[@mkaia47]

aaaaart cafe is back guys, lets gooo

[@rappi835]

I love how you're just showing Steven's incredible work over and over again.

[@samankucher5117]

oh me too he is incredibly good at pen and ink i usualy look at his digital and pencil work 🙂

[@rappi835]

@@samankucher5117 Hey Saman! Fellow stream enjoyer ;) I loved his recent dip pen stream.

[@samankucher5117]

@@rappi835 nice to see you too Rappi >:) can't wait for the next stream. about the inking ... the first time I've seen him do that was when kim jung gi passed away. RIP kim :,) i will never forget him .

[@rappi835]

@@samankucher5117 Oh you're right I was there too. He used the Pentel brush pen for his Kim Jung Gi tribute. Very emotional stream. Rip to a legend. Hope theres no AI in heaven.

[@samankucher5117]

@@rappi835 i have a feeling they don't :)

[@tb8865]

Man, I can really relate to Steven's story about Revenge of the Sith. When I was a kid I would look through the Ep 3 artbook at the book store near my house and finally bought it with Christmas money. Ryan Church and Erik Tiemens' work is fantastic and really got me into art.

[@alexandreIgor_bs]

when we needed the most art cafe is back

[@sc4r3crow28]

Hype! A new episode and with Steven Zapata, awesome :)

[@TheChiliLime]

The biggest concern is not AI art just being there, its AI art taking money away from the artists. We really need a discussion with those who pay for art: production designers, art directors, producers. Do they want to buy AI art for the next big screen movie or a AAA-title? Some serious stuff is going on right now!

[@BastianSteffens]

its crazy ,out of nothing. when i draw it feels like its the most direct form of kommunikation. I found it interesting that such image ais are more direct

[@alexielmarquay]

Considering there are already a lot of serious institutions organising "contest" to get artistic for free instead of hiring an artist, there is no doubt many will jump on the "let's use AI instead of paying someone" bandwagon.

[@m0rpeth500]

Question; who decides the commercial value of an artists work?I'm pretty sure it's not the artist, but the person who's footing the bill. So IF AI is 'taking away money from artists', then that means that the AI is providing better value, plain and simple. I'm also pretty sure that studios can decide whether or not they want to use computer-generated assets at their own discretion, regardless of what some person on the internet has to say about it. I'm not defendig the studios here, but do you realize how incredibly arrogant of a statement that acutally is? I would much rather consume media that involved actual artists - because I value their craft. That said, I'm vehemently opposed to stifling innovation just because some people are suddenly feeling threatened. AI will disrupt almost every industry there is. Get used to it.

[@huhulalammm]

@@m0rpeth500 your comment is very simplified comment. Those who hire artists, they do not set the price. Usually if an artist is selling art he/she keeps tabs on market. Talks to other artists and then set their price. If the buyer likes the style then the buyer buys or uses it. Now focus that I used style. If you are a regular anime audience then chances are you can completely differentiate between studio mappa's animes and studio ufotable's animes. Now the problem arises when a buyer is telling the AI program: hey AI draw me a house using Picasso style. Now he got a house using Picasso style but didn't pay Picasso. How will you feel if you were in Picasso's position. A style is very hard to mimic. But in this case because of the internet AI is not only hampering the earnings Picasso was supposed to get also butchering Picasso's reputation. Because the real Picasso might have drawn the house in a more beautiful way. Now because you don't have to credit AI, the buyer can just credit himself. Now please show me how is it ethical in any way? I don't know which industry is going to be replaced by AI, but for now it definitely seems like the thinking jobs are obviously going to be replaced. Because let's face it using robots for hard labour is a dream thing only. Those robots will require massive energy. Which the world right now simply can't afford.

[@m0rpeth500]

​@@huhulalammm Because the matter is actually very simple: "Now he got a house using Picasso style but didn't pay Picasso." And I'm saying that that is, 100%, picasso's problem. You cannot copyright 'style'. Picasso doesn't deserve payment just because a painting looks like he might've painted it. Similarily, just because an AI creates a similar-looking image to what your work looks like does not mean that you were somehow involved. You weren't. It might look like your work but it is, factually, *not* your work. I would agree that selling such art *as your own* is unethical, but even then; unethical does not imply illegal. Further, as long as most artists are using, amongst other things, Apple devices, I find it pretty rich that the very same people are now complaining about ethics. As if you care, where your iPad or iPhone came from. But now, that you're personally affected ... "But in this case because of the internet AI is not only hampering the earnings Picasso was supposed to get also butchering Picasso's reputation. Because the real Picasso might have drawn the house in a more beautiful way" Also, this is not an argument.The fact of the matter is; he didn't paint the house. That's it. What he might or might not have done is meaningless, because it did not happen that way.

[@EpFiDude]

I'd recommend looking up some critique of Steven Pinker's work, because I've read some compelling cases that he is basically misrepresenting data on how progress has occured in the world, by cherry picking data and defining terms in ways that make the results look favourable, and by conviently cutten off data from the past decades.

[@ArtCafeTV]

interesting. honestly its pretty far out of my peripheral and it's hard to keep track on researching those points. definitely worth looking opposing views

[@Alexmina900]

yeah, there's a good vid about him that goes in depth, made by a channel called "Unlearning Economics"

[@oneeyedfox]

awessome .1000 thx for new episode,I missed these talk so much. one of the best

[@ArtCafeTV]

it wont :) we're back from long hiatus, I hope with somewhat reasonable cadence.

[@braziliandutchy6170]

There are already many people selling ai art on places like etsy and fivver. It's just easy money. It truly proofs that these "tools" are meant as a replacement.

[@aronzeppelin]

I think it's nice that Steven is not angry about any persons. He sais he's angry about the companies. But I guess it's a silent method of the system: it makes us feel that to be angry of any person is not a nice think. But in the same time there are actual persons who generate the ai. So maybe sometimes maybe it would be still okay to be angry personally again.

[@dimitriosstergiou8430]

How is this channel still so underatted?

[@victoriacaedo1626]

The perfect Art Cafe comeback

[@bunnyvoid]

super agree, i'm glad art cafe's always on the front end of the art world discussions

[@jrosas24]

Great to have you back Maciej! Especially in these interesting times.

[@RevellAndRepend]

Awesome, thanks for the new episode Maciej! I've watched some of Zapata's work on YT and am always just blown away by it.

[@jjyay2077]

They heavily sugar coat this new tech and people will only learn the hard way. any dangerous repercussion's that occur in the future, we deserve as humans tbh, people never listen/ take precautions, they only listen when its far too late.

[@Eddierath]

I agree... They UNDERestimate with such dismissive rhetoric it's frightening.. all I want to know is who can we place the blame on when the junk hits the fan.

[@saullandiof5768]

I reject that idea - I don't deserve these repercussions, because I personally have been aware of all the shit that can happen with AI and would never contribute to it, even though I'm involved in programming

[@qwertyuiopasdfghj001]

ai sites should post image sources they've used , each generated image should have a list of links to images(that where use to generate the ai image) attached to it, that will lead to lawsuits and the ai stuff will slow down and be held responsible

[@brutuslugo3969]

If you knew how si art worked you’d know That’d be impossible

[@qwertyuiopasdfghj001]

@@brutuslugo3969 why

[@brutuslugo3969]

@@qwertyuiopasdfghj001 cause ai art references it’s entire database when it produces art … that’s like a human artist referencing every piece of information they’ve used to learn to produce a specific piece of art .

[@brutuslugo3969]

Humans already do that … you have to reference everything you know to produce a work of art .

[@razorback7828]

It was a very smart and very concrete conversation!

[@olgagoryaynova]

I'm glad it was entire 3 hours! Thank you, great conversation.

[@Greatswordgamers]

YEEEEESSSSS MACIEJ. EPISODE!!! thanks man. welcome back

[@drendelous]

I have always dreamt of drawing well, animaton still makes me excited. but I cannot say how devasted I got that day when I discovered a dicord chat where people posted “their” works ai generated. I am just at sea really why we need illustrators now that we have programmers. who are next? writers then musicians? I guess I will save this desire to draw and animate as a dream from here

[@tovermoran4360]

Yeah. I saw some guy on linkedin posting some planetoid shots he had generated with a copyright notice underneath, saying do not copy or make things that are similar. What a joke!:)

[@aldrinmilespartosa1578]

Ai can copy code to, that is why they too have the same worried too.

[@sniegasx]

AAAAH I'm so happy you are back

[@imanispence9795]

Lowkey i feel like the best balance for artist or too make ai truly feel like a tool or a reference would to use prompts in order to create new more specific references rather than photobashing or trying to find 10+ images that kinda sorta match what you want. These images could be taken with consent and compensation from pexel as well as shuttershock..to be used as reference materials..not a finished product. Almost like a better version of collage with a lighting simulator added

[@imanispence9795]

That way the stylization is still in the artist hand, but they have a better references to work with.

[@bunnyvoid]

agree with this

[@PauloRuvalcaba]

Great conversation! I tried MidJourney when the first beta came out and never touched it since... I'm going to look more into this subject now. I read Asimov's iRobot recently and he speculated that machines would create machines many generations deep that humans would not even know how to approach those systems. Looks like our current AI models are the beginning of Isaac's predictions.

[@cmralph...]

I believe that when creative people abdicate their imaginations to machines, their ability to create will atrophy to the point of nonexistence. They will become slaves to the very systems they sought to master.

[@artofsedone]

7:10 I'm one of those "lost souls." Happy that I found my way here.

[@ShomariWheaten]

That was a great convertions I dont know how much you've talk about networking. That would make a great topic for newer artistt!! 😁

[@salasart]

This was a great in depth conversation, thank you for sharing it :)

[@mtflims4092]

I never thought about how art schools would respond to ai. Very interesting

[@wcherokee100]

Hi very interesting video, I do have a question if this is the 134th pop cast where are the rest of your videos ?

[@MaciejKuciara]

a lot of previous episode were livestream socche k the live tab

[@andrewdomo]

Excellent podcasts boys. btw Maciej I think you might've meant steelman argument. Cheers!

[@samankucher5117]

2:10:10 ngl i actually hate NFTs :/ . i don't like the crypto community they keep scamming people.

[@uniorahh9508]

also there're many arguments against the narrative that blockchain or NFT technology protects art from being stolen One of the main limitations of blockchain technology is that it cannot prevent someone from copying or downloading a digital asset without permission. Even if an NFT is purchased and recorded on the blockchain, the original artist may not have control over how the asset is used or shared by the buyer. NFTs does not necessarily guarantee that the underlying art is authentic or original. There have been numerous instances of fake or counterfeit NFTs being sold, which can create confusion there are other effective ways of protecting art from theft. For example, strong digital copyright laws and enforcement, or the use of digital authentication technologies, could be more effective in preventing unauthorized use of art. These approaches may not be as flashy or exciting as NFTs, but they can provide more reliable and comprehensive protection for artists and their work without all the scamming. didn't mention environmental aspects as it's a another big issue

[@samankucher5117]

@@uniorahh9508 i think people should push on regulations on what data Ai is trained on .

[@nvliaen]

Thank you for the insightful video!

[@aldrinmilespartosa1578]

Tbf the Google Ai being sentient is more a clickbait than an actual argument so that the programmer use to bring awareness to the people of what is actually happening in the background (he knows news companies gonna eat it up), that it should have the guidance of its poeple, and showing what it turns out, it worked.

[@JaggedCanvas]

steven zapata is one of the best conversationalists in the planet lol

[@AndreyGevechanov]

Welcome back!!!

[@Clyman974]

I remember you being mindblown by the CRISPR experiments years ago, and I think we all saw the writings on the walls, so we all know how it's going to turn out for AI. In my opinion, our duty is to get prepared and live with (or against) AI, because it's not going away anytime soon now.

[@UniDeathRaven]

Yes, but it will eventually turn against human race, we will destroy all robots and push for biological supremacy banning AI for eternity. Next 500 years will be bumpy.

[@Clyman974]

@@UniDeathRaven Well the last 500 were as well so it's not that much of a change

[@jb-kx3rk]

when time and geography are taken for granted, "just adapt" is an easy conclusion to come to for everyone else

[@mentalbreak]

omg i miss these so much!

[@janwelander4110]

People who use AI and real artists are 2 completely different types of people. Those who use AI are not artists in any way. They dont know anything about proportion, perspectiv, colours, values, light and shadow etc. They are to lazy to put in the work and time it takes to become a good artist. If it takes more than a week to learn, its not worth doing. So they use a program that only exists because of real artists hard work. Real artists loves the process from the first small sketches to the final piece. When you know how to draw, you can make everything as you want it, down to the smallest detail, you dont have to rely on a program to do that. Every time I get a pencil in my hand I start doodling all kinds of things. And that incredible joy it is to go into a art store and just go bananas, is something those so called "AI artists" will never feel.

[@ellenripley4837]

There are a lot of artists using AI though.

[@janwelander4110]

When you use these programs, and generate an image from the words you have typed in to the program, do you feel deep inside that you have made a piece of art, that you actually created something? Theres no soul or handcraft put into it, its just a machine figuring it all out for you. There can be a 1000 people around the world who gets the same result as you, because they typed the same words in.

[@Auurify]

@@janwelander4110 It's ok ,when the honeymoon phase goes out they'll go back to their miserable monotone lives not realizing why they can't find joy in anything they do anymore. Then ask around why they feel unhappy and lost all the time, not realizing that they sold their soul away for quick dopamine hits playing pretend to be a creator. I honestly just feel sorry for them.

[@weweweLit]

2 years later and we are back! lets go

[@XENONstarcraft]

wow. were just like 2 mins i had to wait for this episode :D

[@ArtisanCyanide]

2:38:30 - this part tho. That's like a major point in this debate, but also in general about todays way of communication. People just say stuff, without knowing or wanting to know if it's actually true and they will argue about everything despite having no actual knowledge on the matter. I mean, just open up twitter.

[@rebeccakempe12]

ART CAFE IS BACK!! I'm so glad :)

[@shaunfuqua]

They thought they could get rid of us…but they only woke us up. (After 2 years)

[@kenswood2.031]

💯

[@mh294m]

Welcome back king!

[@m0rpeth500]

In recent years, especially the last few, I've started to notice a trend; Confront literally any community with one or more 'problems' of sufficient scale, that the majority the group as a whole will recognize as such and their collective answer to said problem will, ultimately, be one of regulation and/or restriction. But it's never the community itself, that is to be regulated. It's always others, that need to adjust, be more respectful, mindful or otherwise accomodating.

[@bunnyvoid]

i see that too with crypto and fiat currencies... same sentiments

[@jakerose8928]

waw, art cafe returns !

[@petarpejic1468]

When i started drawing what fascinated me is that you can put a shitt on a stick and if you are good enough you can make a masterpice. I wonder if art is so valuable is exactly because the barrier to entry is nothing its value is that its the game anyone can play and the fact that ml algorithms are able to do it as well is a testament to that.

[@petarpejic1468]

Well wouldn't you say that for thinking as well or even more so and robots still can't think.

[@petarpejic1468]

Well people think trough the structure of language and language models were the one of the first to be developed as well.

[@tylersdadx]

Long overdue 🖤

[@dimplesharma6005]

finally hes back

[@definitelynotnick2454]

I don't really see a path to this "Utopia" that doesn't end in collapse. Btw Maciej, its a steelman argument not a strawman. Strawman means misrepresenting someone's argument to attack it instead.

[@ArtCafeTV]

oups. correct. not being native english speaker means learning language everyday :)

[@definitelynotnick2454]

@@ArtCafeTV All good, I do the same with french sometimes.

[@Dreamaster2012]

We forget that art is changing all the time anyway. I was choosing all the time growing up what kind of art I was going to focus on. As a psychedelic artist I choose to focus on the beings because I saw that fractals could produce infinitely beautiful landscapes. I swerved into things that I could create that no one else could do. As more people began to do beings like mine I created good stories around them to stand out. I keep changing as the world does.

[@bigbalooni2303]

wooooo he's back baby

[@paulatreides1354]

i missed those podcast with Maciej

[@brandonkirkup71]

LETS GO AC BACK!

[@lexastron]

Man, if I had a chance to live in the world with abundance of resources and some kind of unconditional income -- I would definitely be happy and finally could do art not for money to make living, but for pure creative satisfaction... Imho, the ultimate supremacy of sentient AI is inevitable. It just the way how evolution works. It is scary and exciting at the same time. We as humans just need to be a good parents for AI and accept the reality in which every new generation is more advanced than their parents.

[@brushonfire8800]

look at what's happening on artstation right now. Finally. Unfortunately the people at epic games have no balls/ are the enemy so it had to come to this.

[@dimifisher7942]

What happened to epic games?

[@samankucher5117]

guys add this video is copyrighted only use with crediting the artists in to the discribtion just in case they trained a Ai on your video 😅.

[@samankucher5117]

Awesome :)

[@Goodhello369]

I am a very very established Designer/art director working in advertising but with 1/5000th of your talent. I feel worse for you than me. Atleast i deserve this to a degree. A+ Artists like you dont.

[@hugoplatek6362]

We l9ve artcafe

[@bunnyfreakz]

Copyright issue always bring forward but the real problem is AI took job from artist. If you are concept artist or portrait artist, AI just replace you. AI also completely outclass entry and mid level artist. If this keep continue, we will have no more artist on the future.

[@mathieumorse5917]

yeah... but in reality we were just survivor of the world we are building, we already replaced tons of jobs by machines/robots, now it's our turn... we have to deal with it or just die

[@loadsheddingzim]

Oh shit how did i miss this?

[@actualunicorn9462]

Let’s go it’s been far to long

[@marcinzajko9600]

2:18:00

[@dimifisher7942]

They try to make human individuality obsolete, real creativity does not come only by looking at others pics on the net and then combining them together, far from that, real creativity comes primarily from years and years of working on your craft, getting better, learning from it, you really think Da Vinci have seen millions of artworks in his time? Of course not, but he was disciplined enough to excell at what he was doing and that thing and only made his art timeless, now they will create an inflation of superficial artworks to the point where the meaning of the word artwork itself will mean almost nothing, exactly the same thing happened with the bots on the net and now people cannot discern which data (about anything) is true or not

[@taylan5579]

Hey folks, don't waste any time and contribute AI protest in Artstation now!

[@juliansanchez9106]

Well, we're almost officially f*cked

[@artr0x93]

I think AI art will eventually go in the Nvidia-style draw+generate workflow. For example you could have a brush but instead of picking a color you enter a prompt and anything you draw becomes that thing Pretty sure that painting (or at least some form of hand gestures) will keep playing a large role in art even if AI becomes the norm. Describing a full scene in only text just isn’t a very flexible input format, it’s just what’s the easiest to start with from an implementation perspective

[@virage3773]

It seems like the AI will be soft locked at the level of human art considering the training method.

[@royardianto]

if you want to democratize art, please democratize your earnings to artists as well.

[@mkaushik24]

Cg hub went down during 2013-14

[@christinaedwards7072]

I remembered this video and got so mad seeing his name on the mj list, and especially a shorter quicker video he did

[@richiebricker]

47 minutes? I think he had AI write the whole script. If your not afraid of AI, then just wait. If AI wrote the script and made the artwork and cut the video, guess what, They own your video. Simple Copywrite states that whomever published first owns the copywrite. AI has already published all of this content. These Big Media outlets didnt buy millions of dollars worth of computers and then give them time to take everybit of art, every picture and video and song to "learn" from just to make $5 a month from you. They might not take your channel but they will be allowed to put advertizing all over it. Thats what AI does, it steals artwork and re-sells it. People keep finding perfect copies of famous photos being produced like the one of the beautiful mid east woman that was on the cover of National Geographic a couple years back. It will do this with your pics, the pics of your kids in their birthday suits. In court they will win unless you put "NO AI" watermarks all over your content in the future. they have already taken all media up till now. AI is producing pics with "NO AI" watermarks on it. DONT use that art or youll be sued by the creator and the media company. People with "NO AI" watermarks will be the only ones that can win in court cause they said "DONT USE ME IN AI"

[@ConradSly]

the same way that a celebrity's face is analogous to a musicians voice or performance, and can be protected in copyright law, an artist's style is every bit their face/voice and should have equal protection.

[@gondoravalon7540]

> *an artist's style is every bit their face/voice and should have equal protection.* That would collapse artistic fields very quickly given the many shades of gray regarding where one's style ends, another begins, what constitutes "protection," etc. I'm not sorry, IMO that is a horrendous idea.

[@Matijevic81]

You cant stop or change technology, AI is here to stay, just as before, automation of manual labour. The effect of AI on specifically art industry (just as on any other affected industry) is not the disappearance of human factor but much lower demand on labour market, meaning much less work. AI on its own is a very progressive and positive technological achievement, and only thing that we should be trying to change/affect is the general idea of work itself, social laws, worker protection etc.

[@HBSpartanIV]

dude! it has been while eh?

[@ArtCafeTV]

indeed :)

[@nerdstolass]

It upsets me so much :((

[@rappi835]

56:50 lmao

[@alexishauf2097]

Promo'SM

[@jamessderby]

ai art IS the future :-)

[@waltlock8805]

Legislation is NOT the solution. All the will do is give corporations more power at the expense of ALL digital artists. Companies can legally donate tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to congressmen. Do you really think they won't win that fight?

[@drendelous]

🫶🫶

[@daveyjones.]

A lot of us look back at the luddites during the industrial revolution and think them foolish, but I see artists with the same mindset now. I don't know what to think. I doubt even the people creating these algorithms knew how fast things would creep up. All I know is that technology keeps going.

[@Hadoken.]

That's pretty f*cking stupid. Of course the developers knew what they were doing. Have met many venture capitalists who amass 1 billion for a toy and not their own profit? What, there weren't other problems to solve? We got rid of cancer for example and we needed to give delusional and entitled brats the ability to claim they can create something?

[@taylan5579]

lol machine art needs REAL artists to continue

[@zaetia]

@@taylan5579 currently yes. But newer AI art generation models are already being trained on AI art. It's possible in the future no human art will be needed.

[@Hadoken.]

@@taylan5579 Not if you’ve got a machine prompt generator...

[@Darren_S]

Before AI art generators became good while training on copyrighted works. - Artists: This is so funny how bad it is LOL. (We don't care how it is trained because it's art sucks.) When AI art generators became good. Artists: OMG AI is training on copyrighted works. 😭😭😭

[@canesvenatici4259]

They have a point though.

[@pinoytoons]

This is Hypocritical. Real artist are more inclined to anarchy. Real artist are against more legislation. But as soon as a competitor such as AI comes in, everybody wants more legislation all of a sudden. Here's a question to all of you anti-AI, what makes you think these prospective legislation will not be used against on you as well? In case you still not understand, everything touched by the the powers at be becomes a double edged sword

[@ArtCafeTV]

who are those real artists though? AI is not a competitor, its a software. The issue at hand is multi level, ranging from copyright not a fact that ai developers monetize and make products out of databases that claim to be made for research only. i just don't like the anecdote argument points. I start to get a sense that a lot of people just speak for speaking sake without digesting any of the real information that is out there. on both sides. a lot of artists don't understand this technology, and a lot of ai tech enthusiasts think this could exist without artists in a first place. to your point I agree legislation can definitely be used the wrong way, much like a lack of it. however, would you be happy if ai was developed in full anarchy? what about deepfakes? what about your family photo used to feed ai to make stuff that would deeply hurt you? don't you think humans have rights to protect how their data is used and decimated? In my view thats the biggest sticking point here. Maybe AI will bring a winds of change when it comes to how corporations operate on our data and consent - which would be a vastly better overall outcome compared to banning or unbanning software use. this topic needs more discussion, more views, more transparency in my opinion. there is no binary here for 'anti' and 'pro', its all up for discussion.

[@pinoytoons]

@@ArtCafeTV No I won't go far as full anarchy. Deep fakes is a topic of it's own. I agree that AI is simply a software/tool, it's not actually a competitor. I only said that it is, to level with our fellow artists who protests because it's a competitor. Data on the otherhand is pretty much clear to me. We only own what we keep. As soon as we give away/share our data for public view for free , it's fair game. Regardless if it's copyrighted or not. This is no longer within copyright protection's reach. Facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation equates to one thing, data. Therefore not protected. The way I see it, we all trained the AI. It watched us do what we do and simply learned just like when a little kid who watch you do chores everyday, and then surprise you when the kid do your chores for you all of a sudden. Did the kid stole your data? I don't think so, because you showed how you do the chores to the kid. Apply the same question to the AI. Companies simply made the AI watch this and that because it's all publicly available to see for free. What stealing would be tho, is you if have kept your data in a paywall and the AI breaks in intentionally. We don't need the government to solve this. Simply don't share your art which contains data in public for free, if your don't want the AI to use it. Or... keep doing what we do and we all collect each other's data unconditionally using AI. I believe the latter is the move forward

[@dimifisher7942]

​@@pinoytoons so because someone's art is online he has no right to protect it!? Are u sure about that? 🤔

[@pinoytoons]

@@dimifisher7942 You can have all the rights in the world. But protecting it online is a matter of how. It's next to impossible.

[@dimifisher7942]

@@pinoytoons well it seems for once the artists (atleast the really famous) should rise up and demand a legislation about how Ai should be used on the net, I remind you that there is already a legal issue between Microsoft and programmers about open source code

[@lexastron]

Regarding to probabilistic nature of AI workings. Well, the whole reality on quantum level is probabilistic. I would rather look at the image generating AI as a separated visual cortex. Of course it lacks of understanding and own ideas. It just hallucinating images associated with words. Our brain's visual cortex do the same thing basically.

[@anonnymous7009]

48:36 I'm very pro AI and thought not to comment and just listen. But that gatekeeping has to be pointed out. That is ridiculous. 1:00:00 Taxing or making sure people are employed just drives the cost up for nothing in return. People won't create art on a welfare job. What needs to happen, and what I vehemently disagree with Zapata on, is to FORCE every AI company to make their models open source. When everyone can do it for no cost (well, electricity), only real creativity will be worth something. What Stability AI did was not an "error" it was the move that saved us from a dystopia. 1:06:05 So if the AI were one of your students, you would tell it - No, don't look at anything new, I won't teach you anything, you have to crawl you way up here, only than I will respect you. And meh, even if that were to happen it would take a few years longer. But it won't, since the LAION 5B dataset is legal and new training methods are being found that in time when the 6090 is released, everyone me and friends could chime in together and build the model ourselves, faster and with a higher resolution. Already there are new training methods out there that divide time needed to train by 6.5 - and the new update of Stable Diffusion is rumored to be able to create 30 FRAMES per second - literally real time showing you what changing the prompts is doing when you own a 3090 or better. Why the need to wait for a year or two when the result will be the same. 1:11:21 That's where I do not understand you. At what cost? You can still program your video game or draw your picture. You don't need to conform to what people like anymore and you can draw the way you want because you don't need to sell it anymore. If you are anti-Capitalist - this is it - destroying labor costs destroys capitalism. As long as it is not kept in artificial scarcity, like HINT AI companies keeping the models to themselves (again SD releasing their model open source is the move against this dystopian artificial scarcity capitalism, which you unknowingly seem to argue in favor). AI and automation will be our only way to remove the shackles of having to conform and having to sell to others. That's where real creativity will be born from - not from creating a video game for profit. 2:19:30 That's completely wrong ESPECIALLY for Stable Diffusion. Completely locked? There are like hundreds if not thousands versions of it right now (whole models!), not to mention that you can tweak it with embeddings and hypernetworks. 2:21:00 The sampler has a major effect, the cfg scale and the steps, than you can add variation seeds, meaning you combine seeds which means for 25 steps use seed ".....23" and for the other 25 use seed "....94". You can do that with as many seeds you like and variations in step count. But not only that, you can add your own trained embedding, hypernetowrks, different models, merge models that are unique to you which create new custom seeds that nobody can recreate nor are the able to be saved in the meta data. And than if you combine that with img2img and while than changing the model, hypernetowrks and embeddings and do that a few times (which I do to add more detail) you basically are not able to recreate the picture unless you have exactly my files and do the changes on the embeddings and the variation seeds I make throught a 20 minute progress. And those aren't saved, so even I can't recreate any of my pictures anymore. Especially if I had to recreate the model mergers, those mergers are basically random since there is a small random chance baked into it which turn into extreme changes in a 4GB file. Also I have a certain style that I trained into an embedding that I use. I did that by generating 200 pictures where I was practically only using terms (thick lines, high contrast, ... ) and than feed that back into the machine. Now I only need to write (mystylename) in the beginning and every picture I make is heavily influenced by what I taught it to do before. So even if you get my prompts, without my trained file the AI doesn't know what (mystalename) even is. 2:27:58 Overfitting. Tell the AI to write you something. A book cover. Than try to read that. Overfitting only happens in small datasets and/or datasets that lack variation.

[@skullchimes]

Put that AI up where the sun don't shine

[@Dookie_Blaster]

You lost me when you said stability ai saved us from a dystopia. A dystopia where people cant instantly make their custom image anymore? lol the real dystopia is when AI takes over every single profession (barring probably sports) an then no one gives a shit sports anymore or the shitty games or movies that everyone is pumping out.

[@anonnymous7009]

@@Dookie_Blaster yes because if we don't make it a public good, corporations will have the sole access to AI and will put a high enough price on it to exclude normal, average people from benefitting from AI. It will be a world where nobody is able to earn anything while the tools of production are in the hands of a few. Stability saved us from that by giving the tools to everyone. If they hadn't done that, we would be looking down a grim future. But they set the precedent of how AI can be given to the masses instead of creating an AI bourgeoisie.

[@gondoravalon7540]

@@skullchimes How productive. 🙄 This would imply the tech itself is problematic, as opposed to maybe how it is trained (maybe), or how people use it. Not to mention the obvious use of just "AI," ignoring that "AI" has been used in many fields successfully to the benefit of many.

[@ellenripley4837]

Asking for regulation in this particular case is asking for corporations to ban regular people from accessing this technology and I'm against that 100%.

[@biomuseum6645]

1:09:48 ladies and gentlemen, that’s how Steven Zapata proves he’s not pro art and humanity, he’s just pro legal codes, he’s closer to a cold cynical lawyer than to an artist in terms of world view, he sees nothing wrong in stuff like that Japanese guy who married Hatsune Miku

[@xnet-pvzok728]

Zapata's work is the easiest for AI to generate. That's why he so salty.

[@skullchimes]

AI stealing the best artists work. YEAH I'M SALTY. IT DIDN'T TAKE ANY OF MINE DID IT?am I not GOOD enough for AI? GAH DAMMIT. I Can't do it I cant take this sh no more man! *throws ps4 controller at the wall*

[@xnet-pvzok728]

@@skullchimes search on KZbin how to steal like an artist. Professional artists do exactly what these AI models do, just slower and more expensive. They use copyrighted photos as reference and encourage copying your favourite artists work to gain elements of their style. This was never controversial until their livelihood hood was threatened by a computer that could replace them for cheap. Sounding very familiar to a lot of jobs the passed 2 centuries.

[@webbz.of.kreatiion]

Facts you can’t copyright style lol new flash every artist has stolen a style from an artist they grew to admire and made it their own and rinse and repeat lol

[@Dookie_Blaster]

Easy? pfft AI cant do shit all with hands. It takes so long to edit the hands to look even half decent. They kept saying "just wait a couple monthes, it'll get better", well its been half a year and its still ass.

[@definitelynotnick2454]

How bout you come up with something interesting to say instead of slinging shit.