AI bike fitting a wonky person

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[@Hambini]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="440">7:20</a> is the best bit.

[@Tom-hp4bq]

Do you watch your hairdressers backshots from the same angle?

[@Hambini]

She's got a scooter now. She was on an electric bike for a bit

[@aanonymuss3603]

I even went back to look lmao you tart ❤

[@evrimkaya8420]

hambini age 5 :))

[@tuber6382]

You sir, have a dirty mind

[@martinkroutil]

Love that intro, every club racer conversations about gear in nut shell :).

[@rasmuswh]

"...And do other things in an aggressive position" hahaha

[@TheBassallyear100]

"makes you feel alive" epic lol

[@PeakTorque]

Makes you feel f4cked!

[@samuel8590]

Very tricky these bike fit apps. You are 100% correct. So many little things like the one-piece stem and bars. What folks don't realize is that those things tend to pitch downward to give one an aggressive rising position. No way you can bring it back up once you cut the fork. These set ups are made for guys and gals that can absorb aggressive positions without any pain.

[@daniels.2720]

My guess > that was Hambini on the line.

[@MrHsox]

Hello!

[@morrisizing]

The benefits of the non integrated cabling of the previous gen TCR, being able to switch stems easily for different ride types without have to re-route the hydrolic hoses and the pain that is.

[@jasonhurst2491]

Fully integrated cockpits are a bike fitting nightmare for clients and fitters alike! Has to be one of the industry's worst ideas ever.

[@fotmheki]

Maybe instead giving a 14 days flat access it could be divided in 7 access of 2 days each, so you have 2 days to do the bike fit and the adjustment then test it riding and after 10-14 days do the second access and do another change

[@PeakTorque]

Thats not a bad idea. A “pause” option would be great.

Bike Fit Adviser has a really similar DIY bike fit program. It's really informative, and above all, free. Apart from you'll need a camera and a pc or something to measure on the footage.

[@iaincameron4214]

I'm a physio and in the past had used motion analysis as part of a graduate degree thesis. I've rmore recently used Dartfish as a DIY motion analysis tool for bike fitting - this app looks similar, but much more user friendly.

[@_john_doe_]

Sounds like a great app, but as a fellow app developer why the f use the subscription model for things that really shouldn't be it... And people don't like subscription models for things that's not meant to be subscriptions. For that reason I'm out :P

[@Aniqa101]

Is it really a subscription or do you just pay for two weeks and that's it? As far as I understood it is a one time buy, no renewal.

[@nugginusslover476]

Barbara is this you?

[@tomalbert3299]

Bike fitting for the "Haute Route" ... I guessed straight to whom you where referring to 😀. I was was just thinking the same when I was watching it. The video of yours about Tadej came into my mind back then.

[@aanonymuss3603]

´À’ Karma Sutra Level! I am ok to ride aggressive position & do other things in an aggressive position.’ I think he’s flirting with us! Hahaha ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@BLachance75]

I had a professional bike fit last year and a lot of time was spent on my cleats and insoles. Adding a shim under one of the cleats and moving the cleats and a shim under one of my insoles. All of that was to change knee angle and to assist with leg length discrepancy. I'm sure that an app can get there at some point.

[@out_spocken]

I was going to say without good cleat alignment it's really not starting from a good fundamental place

[@treyquattro]

looks like a pretty impressive app. I agree about the pricing model - 23 nicker for 2 weeks doesn't seem so good.

[@Dustydayzz]

ive been waiting for peak to do this

[@floam11]

Best intro ever!

[@inthemix]

You may have covered this in another video but how do you deal with your leg length discrepancy? Mine is 9mm (again medically proven/measured) and my bike fitter shimmed up the shorter leg.

[@PeakTorque]

I have a clear shim i 3d printed and i set the saddle height for the shorter leg. I also run the longer legs cleat slightly further back (elongating the leg slightly)

[@macht4turbo]

An angle based system will have a big variance depending on the fixed joint points it sets to measure angles. I doubt it would have a great interrater reliability. Doing consecutive tests could prove that point.

[@jasonhurst2491]

Yep. Accurate and repeatable tagging of landmarks, parallax error and potentially perspective error are issues that I learned about in biomechanics at uni. Even if the AI and it's library of reference data is spectacularly good, the opportunity for the measurements to be off is significant.

[@huges84]

True. Putting the camera as far away as possible, vertical, and centering it relative to your hips should help with consistency, which is the first step towards accuracy

[@nbarbieri1201]

Thanks for the honest review. Looks like their last app update was 4 weeks ago. Hopefully they fix the bugs in the next release.

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

Bravo! I always asked people if they'd buy a great-looking pair of shoes at a great price...even if they wore size 42 and they were 48? The bike industry loves the idea..."too small, too big and close enough" keeps those pesky SKU's to a profitable minimum. I blame it all on Giant and the ONCE team from back in the day when they crammed their riders on bikes with seatposts that looked like flag poles along with some insanely long stems. Of course they kept it quiet when the S.5 or M.5 frames had to be made to fit their riders...but never offered to Joe/Jill Crankarm.

[@inntw4889]

Does it give bike recommendations? That would be a cool feature considering everyone has unique body geometry. I know that perfect bike is out there somewhere for me.

[@trepidati0n533]

14 days is fine...but what they could do is 4x3 day blocks @ that same price point. This means you basically get "4 sessions" @ ~$6 session which seems VERY fair.

[@markmccann-wood2225]

Wonder how many riders got cramp just watching your hamstring ROM test 😂 - chapeau BTW 👌 from a biomechanic/massage therapist nerd

[@Adonis-qj1nq]

Looks pretty much identical to MyVeloFit

[@cracked229]

Best thing I ever did for my bike fit was going to 160mm cranks, narrow bars (36mm) and raising my seat so It's on the edge of to tall when in a relaxed position but in the aero hoods (elbows 90 degrees) it's perfect for maintaining an open hip angle. It's almost like cheating out on the road. I'm so aero I can ride like this for extended periods of time at 350 watts, less aero chasers need to push 400+ watts.

[@Notmyfruit]

I think human experiance and interaction would be better, but as expected this would be new norm and if you would like a better service (premium price included) you would go to bike fitter for your fit.

[@lizhengzhang]

how to make sure camera angles fine and they catch the right point ? best intro😂

[@wb1979]

Isn't this the same as myvelofit?

[@seanyates2073]

Looks like a good app for a beginner like myself. Will I need a roller or turbo trainer to be able to complete the fit?

[@jasonhurst2491]

Yes you will. Need to be able to pedal while the app assess your position.

[@Ca11mero]

Interesting, I think if they spend more time on it, like for example getting a specific angle for the camera and so on before proceeding would help. There are probably more correct and advanced programs to calculate angles in a video, but if this is improved on in this format, I think it can be quite decent. The goal here should be to have something that works for someone setting up a bike for the first time rather than spending hours upon hours making up something yourself that is most likely very off.

[@impaledface7694]

Would be fun to try this out. Never done a bike fit and I tend to just change until it feels right. Maybe they could do 14 individual days of bike fit changing. So each time you log in within say... 2 months you would get 14 days of adjustment.

[@gregknipe8772]

our expert riding new pavement with big knobs on his tires.....

[@rg807]

The problem with bike fitting is that being "comfortable" vs aero is an inevitable tradeoff, especially as you get older and lose flexibility.

[@tuber6382]

Amen... Therefore fit is not the key. The key is the compromise between fit and performance

[@alwaysalpha1931]

How do you capture such clear audio while riding?

[@marywinks-rk3bx]

There are alot of good points you've covered here but missed some vital easy adjustments. I don't think you are selling the app very well, those handle bars are way to big for you and your hand position on the hoods😉

[@MrMattie725]

Wait, a 100° shoulder angle isn't ideal? I should probably get a shorter stem because I ain't buying another frame!

[@abedfo88]

I'm massively asymmetrical due to office job and lots of driving. Though my pain is just as bad off the bike as it is on it. Strong glutes are the key

[@pierrex3226]

I think three months would be good. Beyond that it would make sense to pay again. Less than that and you can legitimately have spent weeks waiting for a new part, or you've been doing stretches for two weeks to increase whatever, or you got the flu for two weeks, I mean 3 months seems very fair, while less and you'll be stressing out about time running out.

[@richeeg3271]

It they coded it in a way where it doesn't look at angles, but at the smoothness of the pedal stroke, it could actually amazing

[@PeakTorque]

Thats a great idea. They could detect the bottom of the stroke ‘snatch’ from an overly high seat for example. But would need at least 60hz sampling (60 fps)

[@pureroadie]

the next 007?, he's got the car.

[@mvp_kryptonite]

They could do refinements to the original bike fit at a much smaller cost per refinement. Like when you talked about the saddle height. Then a total time when the fit is done say 2 months for the idea of this comment

[@examinethose]

1m handle bar and talks about bike fitting haha hoho... cool review tho. on another note: do you have some takes on AI and cycling stuff in general? would be cool to hear about it

[@lifeincycling]

Is that camera stick mounted to the mudguard hole and then going through the gopro fins in the garmin mount? If so, that's epic

[@PeakTorque]

Yeh :) its a custom triangular boom i made with carbon tube and some 3d printed parts :)

[@billyshakespeare17]

Wizard of Oz effect!!

[@alexdi1367]

This product requires a lot of time and effort to evaluate. As a skeptical, experienced cyclist who's spent years honing bike fits, I'm not spending $23 before the app shows any value at all. I'm certainly not interested in subscriptions or being nickel-and-dimed when my life obligations cause me to run into some arbitrary expiration. Installed, almost immediately uninstalled.

[@CatManDoSocial]

Thanks, Alex. Very cool. I may give that a shot.

[@dimm__]

what colour was that curry

[@ChrisJohnson-ez5jq]

Not sure about the market for complete newcomers to cycling, as they’re less likely to have a turbo trainer…?

[@PeakTorque]

True.

[@porkyparry1]

You could wear a pair of Garry Glitter style boot on your shorter leg.

[@twifosp1]

Nice video! It will be a killer app if they get the hips and knees in there. I tend to have to make a lot of my own bike fit adjustments. I have a pretty bad asymmetry from an old rock climbing injury, and most bike fitters just don't have the background to handle it properly. I'm sure there are great fitters out there physio background who could, just none of them seem to be around me. I've made more progress experimenting on my own (after reading and watching a lot on the topic) than with a pro bike fit.

[@jasonhurst2491]

Neill Stanbury on the Sunshine Coast in Australia is excellent! Experienced physio and over 10 years as a bike fitter. Of course that doesn't help if you live elsewhere. He does fairly regular KZbin videos on the RCA (Road Cycling Academy) channel that are very informative.

[@twifosp1]

@@jasonhurst2491I would love to go visit him if I I was in Australia. His videos have given me a lot of great information, and more to deep dive into. I’ve also read Steve Hoggs articles and books at his mention. Neil’s videos have helped me just as much if not more as pro bike fits with my wonky right side.

[@ChuckHatt]

$250-$500 where I live in the US for a bike fit. Too much to do very often.

[@marvin87bz]

Did it consider cleat position too?

[@kevinb6835]

i have to say the apps are verygood have another one dont do commercial.. but its once payment and i love it 3 bikes made with it and can film front and sides:D

[@MRmichaeleph]

What is that garmin mount? Is it custom?

[@edmundhodgson2572]

As a business model, 14 days seems fair?

[@KingJames6306]

@peaktorque I've noticed you use the Cycplus T2. What are your thoughts on this trainer?

[@PeakTorque]

I did a review on it. No good on smallchainring bikes (gravel or mtb) due to lower flywheel speed at a set power (more current needed). I kept overheating it and constantly went into thermal cut out. Ok for big ring high flywheel speeds.

[@charlesmansplaining]

I wonder if the results would be more accurate if I did the session totally naked. 😁

[@sabamacx]

Does it work with fat freds, tho.

[@thomasullmann7447]

beginners should really starto n TT bikes though

[@miguelsaez340]

Does it fit tt bikes?

[@mesaboogieman1000]

Levens flats?

[@Lacking_something]

i've had a bike fit (and custom made bike) from a shop hundreds of miles away, but i wish it was easier to then get shoes (and inner soles) and saddles assessed/trialled/supplied. one bike shop 50 miles from me wants another £400 for a full bike fit to recommend saddle/shoes. surely a company could do this kind of bike fit app in relation to shoes/saddles.

[@jasonhurst2491]

Oh, and go the G8 Performance insoles if you can get them. I use them in my shoes (have for 4 years) and will be stocking them. Many fitters and podiatrists use them to great effect. Adjustable arch support and you can get accessories such as metatarsal domes and heel wedges designed specifically for those insoles. SQlab do insoles and I have some on order, but can't offer any firsthand feedback yet.

[@Lacking_something]

@@jasonhurst2491 would using insoles (correctly or indeed inappropriately) need more bike fit adjustments?

[@jasonhurst2491]

@@Lacking_something seems KZbin chewed up my other reply about saddles and shoes. Maybe it'll show up later. Spent ages tapping it out with heaps of info for you.

[@Lacking_something]

@@jasonhurst2491 ok thank you. I'll wait in hope! 😁

[@jasonhurst2491]

@@Lacking_something it's possible that if you used arch support that is way too high you may create some instability as your foot tries to reach around or over the top of the arch to properly contact the sole of the shoe. Too little arch support will simply result in no change from your normal foot function. The beauty of the G8's is that you get 5 arch pieces in the kit from very low to very high. Just start from what feels a little low and work your way up over time so your feet can acclimatise. When it's about right your arch support should feel mildly intrusive whennstanding in your shoes. Not uncomfortable, but you should definitely know it's there. You may need different arch heights left to right. Not uncommon. Wedging gets more complicated and is best done while being observed by an experienced fitter.

[@markharrison6120]

Struggling to focus on content with right hood cover adrift.. I have issues..

[@JibbaJabber]

@<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="350">5:50</a> Karma down son 😜

[@monsters8730]

How do you compensate for the shorter leg and the larger foot? Shims under your cleats? Different sized shoes?

[@abedfo88]

After watching lots of Neil Stanbury. I think both a cleat for leg length discrepancies and a staggered cleat for foot. But the interaction between these can vary massively due to tibia and fibia length. So needs a professional eye

[@PeakTorque]

I have a cleat shim i 3d printed and i set the saddle height for the shorter leg. I also run the longer legs cleat slightly further back (elongating the leg slightly)

[@domestique3954]

Shorter crank for the shorter leg,although I went 2,5 mm instead of the whole difference of 5mm because of the adaptation. Way better now,but after 2 ½ hour riding my left shoulder starts hurting.It’s a long and painful process to get to a straight position

[@jasonhurst2491]

Do you mean "crank" for only the short leg side or "cranks" meaning both crank arms? Shimming the shorter leg and adjusting the cleat fire/aft (typically aft) on the longer leg would be the approach an experienced fitter might take. Amount if shimming or cleat adjustment will be determined by how much of the leg length difference is in the tibia versus the femur. A suggestion for a quick and simple check regarding your left shoulder, have you confirmed that your levers are truly level and/or you don't have an arm length difference? I'd put both of those in the unlikely bucket, but worth checking.

[@domestique3954]

@@jasonhurst2491 Yes,only one shorter crank for the shorter leg. Levers are level,but how do I measure my arm length?

[@jasonhurst2491]

@@domestique3954 as a bit of background I'm an Exercise Science student at university and there's a lot of anatomy and biomechanics content. Have also just started a bike fit business to build up as I complete my degree. Been riding road and MTB for about 12 years. Just so you know I'm not selling snake oil or reading tea leaves. The only way to measure limb length with 100% precision is by x-ray or MRI done for that specific purpose. Not really practical so next best is get someone to measure from the front of your acromion (bony protrusion at the front of your shoulder) along a straight arm to the centre of a clenched fist. As if you were gripping the hoods. Due to the difficulty of measuring from and to the exact same points on both arms there's likely to be some difference in the length, but ideally only several millimetres. There are bike fitting tools available that aim to reduce the amount of error, but still not perfect. What really matters is the functional limb length in a loaded state. If there is stiffness (muscular or otherwise), impingement or excessive movement, especially at the shoulder joint, that can render perfectly symmetrical limbs null and void. To sanity check the initial measurement and to make a rough assessment of functional length difference jump on your bike while on the trainer and put hands onnthe hoods and straighten your arms. Have someone measure from the webbing between your thumb and forefinger where it meets the hood, up to your acromion. Again, it's impossible to be precise when measuring body segments externally, but it may provide a clue.

[@jasonhurst2491]

@@domestique3954 I wrote a detailed reply a few hours ago, but KZbin seems to have deleted it along with some replies to other comments. Too risky to tap it all out again so here's the short version. Only way to have 100% certainty about limb length is X-ray or MRI. Not really practical so grab a friend and a tape measure. Hold your arm straight down, straight out in front, or any angle as long as you're consistent both sides. Have your friend measure from the pointy bit at the front of your acromion in the shoulder down to the centre of a clenched fist (as if you're gripping the hoods). Impossible to measure to and from exactly the same points left and right so expect a few mm variation due to error.

[@jasonhurst2491]

@@domestique3954 Functional limb length is more relevant though and this needs to be done with the limb in a loaded state. Super tight muscles, super loose ligaments or deformities (due to accident, disease or congenital) can either limit movement at a joint or allow too much. Hence the need to load the limb and therefore the joints as you would when cycling to understand if there is a limb length difference when on the bike. With the bike on a trainer, jump on, lean on the hoods as you would when riding and pedal as you normally would with some resistance to simulate being outside. Have your friend measure again from the acromion and this time to the point where the webbing between thumb and forefinger meet the top of the hood. Repeat both sides. Again, expect a few mm difference due to measurement error. Depending on exactly where your shoulder hurts may help indicate what the issue actually is. May be worth speaking to a physical therapist so they can check for any underlying issues with your shoulder that may be irritated by cycling or otherwise loading your shoulder in that position. While I still think a longer arm is unlikely, it would create extra load on that shoulder as it tries to absorb the difference in reach.

[@selfactualizer2099]

this is great

[@MazingerZX]

App seems pretty good starting point for bike fitting but subscription? No thank you.

[@kautzz]

I'm weird. Switched my setup drastically over the years never really felt uncomfortable or had any pain. Seems I can tolerate pretty much any position on the bike even for long distances. Do notice differences in the ability to get power on the road though. Wondering if the app could help find the best performing position. (currently everyday rider, usually triathlete doing 6 days of training a week)

[@waynehiggins899]

Can anyone recommend a good fitter in the Yorkshire area?

[@markj.a351]

I'm off to see one in Tadcaster in couple of weeks. Will give feedback after. Been off the bike and any activities involving ankles for near three years due to injury. This place has been recomended by the therapist who figured out how to get me active again so I have high hopes.

[@lukewalker1051]

Best you can do Alex is make an appointment with Neill Stanbury for an in person bike fit. He is the best fitter on the web and possibly in the world and may in fact be in your area. He will blow you away with his knowledge of fit and functionality aka muscularity intersection with range of motion. He is encyclopedic about fit. Nuance perhaps you haven't even considered like how Q-factor affects foot varus/valgus. Rather surprised as a ME you didn't even suggest shimming under the cleat of your shorter leg to create a more symmetric pedal stroke. Also, Neill would likely adjust your fore/aft cleat position differently on each foot to compensate for your foot length disparity which btw creates 'yaw' aka rotation of your body on the bike in the plan view looking down. As smart as you are, a collab with Neill would be a great meeting of two smart people. F that AI bike fit ap bro. A woefully inadequate algorithm. In 10 years, a full body scan aka 3D math data of the body will likely create a closer facsimile of best bike fit but AI isn't there yet but no question it will be. P.S. Wonky isn't really apt. As it turns out most humans are asymmetric and in fact more anomalous for a person to be symmetric than not. I have been tweaking my bike fit for 40 years.

[@jasonhurst2491]

Based on Alex's replies to some other comments he's already shimmed his shorter leg and moved the cleat rearward on his longer leg. Exactly as you've suggested so good call. How much of the leg length difference is tibia versus femur will influence how much shim and setback is used. You are right about Neill. The guy is amazing! He's based on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia though, so unless Alex is planning on a long holiday an in person collab is but a dream. I have just started a bike fitting business and I'm doing an exercise Science degree at uni. I went to Neill about a month ago to tweak my position as it wasn't quite right and you really need an objective, external observer to spot the devils in the detail. I have watched many of his KZbin vids with RCA, but seeing him operate first hand was a masterclass in observation, analysis and application. His knowledge is second to none.

[@lukewalker1051]

@@jasonhurst2491 You are quite insightful as well Jason and thanks for your comments. I am from America and unfamiliar with beautiful Australia so wasn't sure of the travel distance between Alex and Neill. We are all so different on the bike. I am sized more toward Alex and have a leg discrepancy and foot size length difference as well...as statistically, the longer leg tends to be a companion with longer foot as no doubt you know as someone enlightened about fit. Neill is truly exceptional and would love a fit from him as well but will settle listening to his many suggestions from Q-factor to saddle setback and shorter cranks which in particular are most helpful to an aging cyclist like myself to get a bit more aero with less hip impingement. You will laugh, but I wrote to the great late Sheldon Brown when he was alive asking about 175mm crank length because that was the length I was on at the time as a rider over 6' tall and Mr. Brown wrote back, crank arm length was immaterial to speed on the bike. Of course this was around if not just before the time of Lennard Zinn's position on proportional crank length relative to rider leg length which of course has since been debunked and Lennard who was very tall per his crank length calculator would put me on cranks longer than 175. Like Cam and many others now, I am on 165's now and they make such a difference to pelvis rotation and minimizing hip impingement, promoting higher cadence with greater pedal stroke fluidity and as you know, W = T x RPM and capacity for slightly higher cadence compensates for reduction in torque T due to shorter moment/lever arm. Aero benefit, if not including skeletal support reducing muscle fatigue of narrow handlebars with hoods canted in aka Pogacar...goes without saying and UCI be dammed....joking. Cam Nichols who is a top amateur of course is challenged with functionality as I am, me being older and Neill has helped Cam tremendously and Neill's tips translate well to me as well. All the best with your fitting business.

[@kmmntrls]

In short, you have to pay way too much for being an beta tester.

[@jrn4141]

Ffs it is taking you a hell of a time to publish the wave wheels video

[@cx123456]

AI my ass.

[@rskng]

Nothing wrong with one bars-stem s-works or any other bike like that. Plenti of adjustability. I changed the standard 100x420 bar for a 120x400 bar, not a problem, and the seat post to a 0 offset one. Spot on bike position. Can't afford to change the handlebar or seatpost? Then don't fucking buy a 12k bike. It's like arguing that a sports car is bad because the tires are expensive. WTF?

[@GaborL]

Noob cyclists will not have all the tools, general expertise or spares to make the changes

[@paulschulman8131]

First

[@ridesofjapan]

Shoe game on point! 🤌 I wish I didn't trash mine OG silver empires

[@PeakTorque]

These have done really well. Due to the shiny finish they always clean up well. About 12yr old now!!