AI vs Mozart: Can YOU tell the difference?

[@RayChenViolinist]

Don't let the robots win! 😆Practice and share your music with others on Tonic: tonicmusic.app/join-in

[@dux_gaming5]

I’m a big fan of you, I use tonic too, can you follow me my tenth birthdays tomorrow pls thx if u do

[@Ethanviolin0320]

Ray, could you make a video where you teach us how to play czardas like a pro? I’m currently working on it

[@lilys946]

Yeah

[@CharlotteKwok-rd2xe]

I am in tonic already ❤❤❤

[@vesselinatp]

🎉

[@coasterdragon155]

this is SCARY as a composer…because people who we will work for might not be able to see the difference between AI and human…this is a fear becoming more valid by the month

[@ericbernardi8116]

Sad but true 😢

[@platedpen]

ai is g

[@VictorIbelles]

Orr you can work faster by using ai and just making corrections

[@ericbernardi8116]

@@VictorIbelles yes but... That's actually editing, not composing 😐

[@rykehuss3435]

If youre scared of AI, then you must not be that good of a composer

[@kierankauffman3249]

I was 6-0, and it came down to a few things: 1. AI doesn’t understand cadences or ends of phrases. Especially in the film and pop rounds the AI felt a real lack of musical direction and definitive « end points. » The Baroque AI also had a lot of weird out of place chords. 2. Certain notes. In the romantic AI the violin hits a B naturaly against a Bb in the orchestra melody that was super jarring and felt like something that a real composer wouldn’t do. 3. Recording artefacts: In the contemporary human recording, there was a slight echo from the hall they recorded in that the AI recording didn’t have. There were other things too (Violin tone quality, etc.) that tipped me off but the big thing is that while the AI can really closely emulate the sound of an orchestra, they don’t yet have the knowledge of how composers actually write music, structure chord progressions, etc. To make it sound truly human.

[@serhii-ratz]

I would say the major thing AI does not have is a multilayered idea within the music. Each peace of art has several layers which you can discover during your journey. But AI has only one layer. That’s it.

[@walteradolfoarriagasesma9488]

Yeah... The thing is, most of listeners don't understand any of that, either. I can only assume that this new tool will find its place in the ecosystem kind of the way synthesizers did, as another possibility to do things.

[@chriflu]

I, too, got 6/6 right, and mostly for similar reasons, even though (or maybe: because) I intentionally ignored the sound and only assessed the compositions. However, to nitpick, I both agree and respectfully disagree with your second point. I agree because this was also the exact point where I realized this was the AI one. I disagree however because first of all, it's rather a c flat over b flat than a "b natural" over "b flat", and this suspended none over a a dominant chord is actually omnipresent in most romantic composers' music. The reason, in my opinion, that it feels "out of place" here is that it does not occur in a "natural" or "organic" context: It's an element that would usually mark a point of high tension - but melodically, harmonically, and dynamically the tension is already decreasing/being released when this minor none suspension occurs: We have already been in the dominant for one entire bar (no harmonic progression), the melody reached its apex in the previous bar and reaches this suspension from above rather than below, and the dynamic goes back. However, to circle back to your main point, I, too felt that the AI compositions clearly lacked what I would call "musical dramaturgy". It's as if, when tasked with writing something in the style of, say, Shakespeare, it would produce a series of sentences that, on their own, sounded completely Shakespearian, but, together, did not actually tell a Shakespearian story.

[@HermanVindigni-pl1cr]

Yes, I have noticed similar things... It is even more evident when you feed it with an audio source that the AI can use as a starting point for generating the music. AI is very lacking especially in harmonic progressions: Its music always conveys something static as if it were assembling material that is aesthetically related but without a clear destination to head towards.

[@polymath6475]

the only thing I got from your comment is that it's PhD level people like yourself who can even tell a difference anymore. I've been playing piano for 40 years, I can't tell. Ask my T Swift listening wife and she'd just say, it's easy listening classical good for reading!

[@dandelion-10101]

Bro my head whipped so hard when I heard Lindsey

[@nicolassantos3362]

Juts waiting Ray Chen coming to BRAZIL 🇧🇷

[@nicolassantos3362]

Play one of the four nights concertos pour violon, every one will love it.

[@DaGeekOfStuff]

Please attempt Roman Kim compositions

[@seli_mie24]

I was laughing all the time, because you looked so funny, when you didn't know if it was AI or a real person. I had three or four right and knew the last one, because I like Lindsey Stirling music so much, and I love this song Roundtable Rival

[@Geopholus]

The third one was really hard , and both seemed quite convincingly human but I did guess right.

[@mostawesomestnamever]

What is scary to me is not that AI might surpass human music in quality or soul, but that it will be just passable enough and so easy to produce that it will be all that the majority of people hear.

[@sivad1025]

This is the danger of modern music and consumerism. We've made human produced "art" so mechanical and soulless that people aren't trained to seek out authentic art

[@birgits.3702]

@@sivad1025 And it is like with performing music. Did anyone hear of anybody who booked a whole professional big band or choir-and-orchestra (incl. conductor) for, say, a wedding? --- Mostly, they book a one-person-plus-midi-keyboard-band. On booking platforms, those people write that they are willing to pay 500 EUR maximum. --- And of course you don't hear of any of those who only play already recorded music at their parties. Then, if AI music of a certain quality will be so low cost and produced in no time, who will care about human composers, studio engineers, musicians, instrument makers etc? --- Already, most people are happy with a low quality sound from recordings and electronic devices. A mobile phone is enough for them, they will never know how a really good, or even: excellent, hi-fi sounds like! That's so shockingly dumb: someone walking down the streets while listening to music from a squeaking device while good bass speakers would be vital for that genre!

[@sivad1025]

@birgits.3702 Totally agree! I'm so glad you said that though. I hope to get married this year and I've been playing with the idea of investing in an orchestra accompaniment. My church occasionally has their orchestra accompany mass. For Mother's Day, they played Mozart's Coronation mass. We just need to be deliberate in supporting real music

[@RichardWagner-hi4zn]

The popular music is so bad quality that it does not matter if many listen to AI classic. Creative minds will alway stay with true human music from the past.

[@cldavis33]

This is exactly the thing. Normal people do not hear these fine nuances, they literally are completely unaware of what we are discussing here. It will be cheap and easy.

[@jazbose9164]

*But who knows ai is secretly checking this video for information where it lacks?* 😅

[@Zareh_Abrahamian]

AI sucks up whatever is posted on the internet and there's no escape for humans.

[@OscarZhou511]

oh no

[@amethyst_darke]

uh oh... we're screwed

[@baldrbraa]

It can check all it wants, it will never have understanding.

[@cvaderx]

@@baldrbraa HA...We (never) expected this also...The fact that classical music is rule based opens a wide window..Wait and see!

[@JoeBarrack]

I think the difficulty in the film music round speaks more to the declining quality of modern television and film music, which tends to act simply as "sonic wallpaper".

[@thornnorton5953]

It’s a shame since there’s some truly moving film music. Both of them just weren’t it.

[@federicoaschieri]

Film music is declining by choice, not because of some crisis. Sadly film directors now reject the idea that film music should be significant enough to stand alone as an independent voice. They think this creates a double narrative, treating viewers as naive and disturbing them. Of course I don’t agree, and I refused to write music for films.

[@RichardWagner-hi4zn]

@@federicoaschieri I refused to marry a princess. lol

[@federicoaschieri]

@@RichardWagner-hi4zn That's great. Indeed you should marry a girl that you love, independently of her social status 👍🏻

[@RichardWagner-hi4zn]

@@federicoaschieri Well, that's a recipe for disaster as well.

[@alec.j]

I got all of them correct, the way I could tell is that AI doesn't seem to care for the beat. Sometimes it feels like it just randomly switches time signatures, or 2 different parts don't exactly match up.

[@brucehayes3497]

This is so right.

[@lingshui_aiiyako]

Same. I got the same score and noticed this too.

[@annasdtc2491]

Exactly

[@sarahyeoh0111]

You mean the rhythmic pulse?

[@rfyl]

@@sarahyeoh0111 I think he means the meter (the time signature). That's what I reacted to. It will seem to be in 3/4 and then in 4/4 and then in something where you can't even really be sure what meter it is. (In the music from the periods where this was not commonly done.)

[@zoeolsson5683]

I don't want AI generated music .... I want humans to play more music. Music is about connecting to each other i don't want to connect to a machine.

[@spacey6960]

You d never even know

[@__-fu5se]

As wierd as that is, good AI will have been effectively pruned and selected from a large pool of humans judges so that, despite its synthetic origins, it would nonetheless deliver a human-biased performance. Think of it as ready-made pizza vs freshly, homely pizza. Chances are that, in a casual context, you'd stop telling the difference between the two.

[@Anktual]

Stfu and just listen to good music no matter the source. Just enjoy it and stop bitching about it.

[@MofosOfMetal]

Early Classical-era DOES sound a bit more Baroque. It's technically "Galant" music - CPE Bach and early Haydn are good examples. Late Beethoven would present a similar problem - too "out there" to represent Classical and also not quite like any Romantic-era music.

[@CopShowGuy]

That's what I was thinking (must be Galant-style). They pulled from too early in the Classical era. Should have done something more mid-era.

[@LeventeZone]

Where things break down is... e.g. J.S.Bach. A large data model based on essentially age-old Markov chains does not step outside its fundamental constraints. Easy example again, ChatGPT never produced an original text that argued in new ways a certain point. It, per definitionem, can't. Move that into the sphere of music... the limitations are obvious. But clueless tabloids and then investors going for hyped BS about AI fundamentals they don't understand completely take over.

[@r3adrpro811]

Got them all. I was applying the same rules I use when either reading or listening to verbal content. AII has weird repetitions. Inconsistent "pronunciations" or throwbacks to something earlier in the content in a way that just doesn't fit - that's why a human editor is needed to polish the content. I had to laugh about your reaction to the Bridgerton theme.. I'm sure I will get lots of negative comments here, but that's the wsy I feel about the whole series - it is artificial and tries too hard to be accurate to/reproduce something it isn't. It's very funny that is reflected in the scoring as well.

[@WhirledPublishing]

I'm an opera singer - my performance repertoire is over 50 arias composed by Mozart, Bellini, Puccini, Rossini, Verdi, Vivaldi and dozens of other composers - I sing in ten languages - and like Ray, I can distinguish between the music composed by robots vs. the music composed by humans - but probably soon, this distinction will no longer exist.

[@halohack789]

Unfortunately doesn’t matter if we can distinguish. Can the audience distinguish?

[@WhirledPublishing]

@@halohack789 Pretty soon, the AI will be so brilliant that audiences will have no interest in the music composed by humans

[@LeventeZone]

It will. AI has no attitude, stance, viewpoint, personal history, passion, soul. Competently generating some snippets of music in a given style and genre is not equivalent or surpassing a human composing a C Minor Mass. The Illiac Suite is from the 1950s. It was rudimentary AI with astonishing end result. We are now 70-ish years later. Has music died? Has it been overtaken by computers since then? A lot of the panic and utter nonsense surrounding current AI misses the fundamental, central aspect of it.

[@WhirledPublishing]

Please share w/ us your brilliant accomplishments and achievements in life - so we can all appreciate your brilliance - if you have no impressive achievements ... let that be a reminder to you that you're not very bright ... Then maybe you'll refrain from presenting yourself as an expert on a topic when your awareness is adolescent - at best.

[@LeventeZone]

@@WhirledPublishing Meaning?... how does this relate to a specific aspect of AI development? Apart from it being a logical fallacy (see ad hominem). Plus... how is this a response to a discussion on how AI cannot take over human creativity for quite some years?

[@Animeniac77_Teemo_G0ne_Wild]

What was the A.I. Used to make these tracks?

[@rahulradhakrishnan5591]

It's not that AI in itself is scary or dangerous. It's how people intend to implement it in society. Currently, the governmental regulations surrounding AI aren't well formulated or defined. But since I've been studying and experimenting with AI, I can tell you this. AI is capable of much, much more, as the years go by.

[@TheSLK66]

I went 5-0, "guessed" correctly. I don't think I can say my assessment is better than Ray's, but it did came down to "feeling". The 3rd one, the 2nd romantic felt well structured, human touch indeed. And the last one, the 2nd song felt uplifting and a bit more distinguinshable.

[@dmt472]

Agreed, the AI generated music will play the right notes in their own independent bits, but it doesn't feel like there is a 'purpose'/'idea' to it, which makes sense... since there isn't, it's just a generative algorithm. Just like pretty much all AI generated stuff, it seriously needs an editor. Also I think pop music could be the hardest one by far. The tracks are generic enough already

[@Tweeteketje]

Ah, but there are 6 rounds ^^

[@Ryan-ds5zc]

Yeah, Ray seemed to be more focused on the technical aspect of the playing, whereas I thought most of these were pretty obvious from the composition side. The AI tracks can never put together a cohesive melody.

[@Zareh_Abrahamian]

@@Tweeteketje I think the commenter meant the 0 as the one they did not guess right. Definitely the human touch! I guess they pass as not AI for the time being.

[@Tweeteketje]

@@Zareh_Abrahamian yes, so it should be 6-0 ☺️

[@GyulaSzaboM.-zx6qv]

"Does it go to somewhere or not" - this was a good recipe, helping me to get all. For my ears, the important difference is a meaningful composition vs. a senseless composition - more than the "sound" of the audio. To add here: the selection was REALLY GREAT! It allowed the composers to shine, we heard really hidden masterpieces in all genres. Great-great selection, congratulations to your team, Ray!

[@alhfgsp]

The AI lines meander and felt directionless, while the composers' had a more clear sense of resolution.

[@TeamOneAndDone]

How many did you get right? I used the same judgement and got 1/2...where is it going?

[@analygaroza]

I hope someday you can go to México, you are a big inspiration for the people ! I love your interpretations

[@napilopez]

The most inportant thing to remember about AI is that at any given moment, this is the *worst* AI will ever be. This was instilled in me at a talk I went to like 6 years ago, well before AI started to make its current dramatic progress. The speaker noted how important authenticity and creativity will become in the future. At some point, AI will be good enough to be indistinguishable even to the majority of experts. Thats why we need to value authenticity and live performance in and of itself.

[@LivingPianosVideos]

I got most of these right! But it’s ridiculous how good the AI is. Please let us know which AI you were using for this demonstration.

[@bwaybig]

2:19 Sounds extremely baroque to me. I'm somewhat of a professional. I've been baroque for several years now

[@smalin]

This would be like judging whether AI could write fiction with samples that are only a couple of paragraphs long. The value of classical music is not something you can assess by listening to a few seconds of it.

[@heliharrikari]

Haha 😂 No, you’re not in trouble. My 9-5 job is to help technology industry (and ultimately people) deploy AI. Recently, I’ve also spend some of my free time thinking about how AI can be explored in really cool ways in practising violin, and in classical music in general. I’m not a professional musician, however, I grew up playing violin +10 years, so I do have a hunch what it is about. We often hear comments on how AI will replace people. I don’t believe in it. Not even though my job is to be an advocate for AI. I truly believe that ultimately it is all about how we as humans are able to harness the capabilities of AI to help us out and create value with AI for ourselves. In other words, to identify in which tasks AI is way better and faster than humans, and vice versa, where humans beat AI 6-0. Optimally, by deploying AI we humans have more opportunities to concentrate on the tasks that we love and cherish, and leave the boring, repetitive work for AI. Unfortunately, AI will not play the scales for us, but I think it can help in amazing ways with practicing violin. AI has no imagination and it doesn’t think but it can provide - with its own strengths - new horizons and boost our imagination to the next level. Would be happy to hear about your potential trials on exploring AI to boost your practicing, in case you already have some. Thanks for the great video 👍

[@ericbernardi8116]

I'd say 80-90% of jobs are repetitive and even now there are not enough jobs for everybody... And in pop music they already chose "perfection" over emotion by tuning every single vocal, all the voices sound the same... Where there is more money to gain, they will... AI isn't bad as well as money isn't but humanity with it's greed and stupidity can't handle it in a decent way 😅 I know I sound cringy but it's like a one way road to a dead end... How can economy grow to infintiy while taking away more and more jobs from an ever growing population? Maybe we should ask AI how to rework our system because the lack of greed and any emotion would lead to a more logic solution... 🤔 (Sorry for the rant 😅)

[@southside8551]

The problem is not so much where AI is at now the problem is how rapidly is developing and all the dangerous implications that brings, a good number of people seem to be playing fast and loose with AI not really thinking of the ramifications it can bring in the future. I also find this sentence you wrote quite puzzling: "Unfortunately, AI will not play the scales for us," . How is that unfortunate ?, why would you want AI to play scales for you?.

[@heliharrikari]

@@ericbernardi8116 Thanks for your comments 👍 I fully get what you mean. I also think that if we only try to glue AI into our current society and assume that everything else around will stay the same, the outcome will not be very good. I would hope that AI will be disruptive enough to force us to think also more profound, positive systemic changes needed in the society. Easier said than done though 😊

[@heliharrikari]

@@southside8551Thanks for your comments. I agree that power always comes with responsibility and it’s vital to consider the ethical aspects of AI. This type of work is taking place in various corners of the globe as we speak. My comment about AI playing scales for us was meant more as a joke; back then I did not enjoy playing scales too much, although naturally necessary 😊

[@southside8551]

@@heliharrikari It's not purely ethical , there are a myriad of unknowns when it comes to the development of AI and the possibility and dangers of becoming actually sentient. Glad I asked about the scales rather than just assume, it's difficult to infer context on comments sometimes.

[@purpletiger9313]

But in some categories both selections were mediocre. You heard about the Renaissance artist Garbagio? And the Greek scholar Mediocrates? Then take into account the BIASED *selection* of the human piece, not showing human brilliance but -- Mediocrates. So then everything sounds comparatively AMAZING! But then compare it to Beethoven and think again. Flawed and brilliant. Thanks for a diverting video!

[@clever_violin]

Okay, but that AI romantic era piece was kinda fire... any chance of sharing where to find the tracks??

[@Proud_Troll]

I got every single one. I think Ray just didn't focus on the right attributes. I was focusing mostly on the melody. It seems to me like AI is not good at melody, and it just ends up sounding like the music isn't going anywhere, there's no story. You can hear this a lot in the film music and pop ones, but also the other ones.

[@ssatjapot]

This is so entertaining. Love the live analysis streams of consciousness.

[@TheVoitel]

I think it is quite easy to understand the difference. Especially in old classical music where music tends to be derived from speech and tends to have a rhethorical speaking quality such ML based systems cannot reproduce. With contemporary music it is harder, as there often you need to get the big picture to understand the design. The systems behind this are good at reproducing the generic aspects of a style, which also explains why it works so well for pop music ...

[@dmtdreamz7706]

On a certain level, we have Ai in our brain, the neurochemicals that show up in flow: so dopamine, norepinephrine, anandamide, endorphins, and serotonin. If you were to try to cocktail the street drug version of that, right, you're trying to blend like heroin and speed and coke and acid and weed- and point is, you can't do it. It turns out the brain can cocktail all of 'em at once, which is why people will prefer flow to almost any experience on Earth. It's our favorite experience. It's the most addictive experience on Earth. Why? 'Cause it cocktails five or six of the largest pleasure drugs the brain can produce. We're all capable of so much more than we know. That is a commonality across the board. And one of the big reasons is we're all hardwired for flow, and flow is a massive amplification of what's possible for ourselves.

[@jeanvieirradjebou7141]

what’s scary is AI learns from humans but Mozart or Beethoven did the same every musician learnt from his predecessors. So AI produce this by studying human music. So at the end of the day , If we delete everything classical music data AI used to produce this it won’t be able. But I’m sad of listening this cuz music is soulful and could become literally shallow if we listen AI music without the background, feelings and emotions, moods of an artist while he produce his music. You can ask an AI to produce sad music it would probably make it but that sucks💔💔💔💔

[@Whatismusic123]

It's much harder to tell the difference between AI music and human music when you use bad composers for the examples 🤦‍♂️ The emergence of AI "music" is also the culling of trash. So many bad composers, whether they be beethoven, corelli, schumann or schönberg, will be revealed to be second rate when AI can replicate their garbage with ease.

[@Kalemnos]

AI is knowing all the Mozart composition. Thus it is easy to compose something in the same spirit. Like you can paint something the way VanGogh could have done it. But if VanGogh would not have existed, you would not be able to paint something the way he would have done it. The same is true with Mozart. If Mozart would have not existed, then the I.A would not have been able to compose music the Mozart way. The I.A can compose something the way Mozart would have done, like many actual composers, in fact. But creation is not making something equivalent to what already exist. Creation means making something that noone made before. The Day an I.A will create a master symphonie coming from nowhere. A completely new piece that is not a "In the manner of" i will be very surprised. Talking about intelligence, every composersat every time were intelligent. But they had their history, their sensibility, their own experience, their own culture, their own conception of music. This is the reason why they created so many different musics. A german composer do not compose as a french, an italien, a Russian or a spanish one. An I.A. has no history, no life, no sensitivity. It can only imitate the human creation.

[@MREmusique]

Ray, the error you are making is listening to the quality of the recording and "performance", rather than the quality of the music itself. AI cannot (at least at present) make the little subtly inventive choices that differentiate its output from that of a real living composer who has studied for years to get where they are. I think the only place where AI might have a chance at fooling anyone, is with lower-quality, purely "functional", film and television music. But this is mostly due to the paucity of great composers in that particular field. Obviously, AI will never achieve the heights that someone with the background of a Williams, or Goldsmith, or Silvestri or Herrmann is (was) capable of. But there are myriad lesser composers, whose output is functional yes, but far from memorable. Against these, AI does stand a chance, mostly because they, like the AI, rely too heavily on formulæ and patterns. As for the "contemporary" concert music, there are many composers out there who rely too heavily on the math and the process behind their music, instead of the music itself. AI obviously can only fall into this trap. Where real creativity comes into play is how the composer breaks from the strictures they've established, the "rules" so to say of their own musical language.

[@vladislavstezhko1864]

In such a short excerpt AI does sound as a normal composition. Hovewer, in the context it wouldn't, the music wouldn't make much sense as a whole piece. This is something only a man could do. Even in these excerpts, baroque and classical excerpts sounded kind of weird.

[@leoviridis]

Ray, is it joke? Just for clickbate and popularity did you give in? I would never believe that a professional musician couldn't distinguish AI. It just imitates music, uses main rules, but don't write music. It has no melody, no idea, no emotions. I just don't believe you don't see that

[@JM_Sellers]

I think the dead giveaway is what I'd call a lack of any sort of narrative arc in the AI excerpts -- something I have consistently sensed certainly in any sort of classical imitations. The first avant garde selection was too obvious to my ears, especially with some odd sound manipulation inexplicably thrown in. As for the contemporary soundtrack or pop music, well, the narrative arc is so fragmented and really ad hoc -- which is why it can become harder to detect. To put it more bluntly: simplistic music is easier to imitate, and who would really care anyway? I still managed to get all six right. AI doesn't "get" the intuitive logic involved in musical creation (at least insofar as some kind of *depth* is involved) which is more process than product. The metaphysical assumption is that the human brain is a machine -- but this is a metaphor that leads to a creative dead end. But, once again, if the music that passes for "good" is already creatively DOA, of course AI can "imitate" that.

[@techno769]

We need to reject AI and anyone who keeps feeding into it. Obviously any real musician can tell the difference. Call out this abomination and embrace *real people* expressing their thoughts and emotions through music.

[@oznek3899]

This is sooo disturbing not being able to spot the difference...

[@puffin7285]

I think the reality is AI is very good because even a professional musician, even if they get it right is still not completely sure and let's be honest, the AI sounded good. It sounded good and I hate it. Art should be the realm of humanity, work the realm of AI

[@andrewhamilton2201]

At least for now, repeating motifs and strong candences give away the human recordings. The AI recordings don't have a clear form or direction.

[@longgolf5530]

Where was Mozart? AI is afraid to attempt Mozart.

[@violindylan]

“Black Angels” by George Crumb is a phenomenal piece for string quartet- and probably one of the most difficult. Imagine playing dies irae with flageolets while at the same time whistling it in syncopation…

[@aveyenx]

That's really a great piece - and the God-music movement reminds me of Messiaen somehow.

[@arielorthmann4061]

​@@aveyenxharmonically, it is indeed a Messiaen pastiche.

[@blauespony1013]

I wonder: If the AI generated score would be interpreted by an orchestra - would we still hear a difference? For me it was the playing more than the score itself.

[@seveera]

I think there would. I personally had to ignore the sound because when I noticed distortion and mp3 artifacts in the recordings, those made me think for a moment it's the fake. Then when thinking about the quality of the writing, like the 'noodling around' Ray mentioned, it became very obvious which ones were created by AI when the phrases would lead to nowhere.

[@blauespony1013]

@@seveera That's exactly the part I am talking about, because the "noodling around" might be fixed with musicians who can elevate those loose phrases or at least lead them somewhere. And I know that is not always possible, I had one piece by an amateur human composer that simply ... could not be fixed/unnoodled so to speak.

[@seveera]

@@blauespony1013 but I think the musicians could only fix the noodling or phrases that lead to nowhere by ignoring the integrity of the composition, then I don't think that's a fair thing to do in a comparison of what composers are able to do vs AI. It would be like having a 3 year old scribble on note paper and then have musicians just play whatever. Then going like "oh wow the 3 year old composed that??" would be really unfair I think 😸

[@blauespony1013]

@@seveera Not what I meant. They should not change the score. But interpretation of a piece can change so much (just listen to a piece as midi score vs. the same piece played by actual musicians).

[@seveera]

@@blauespony1013 Oh I totally get that, but the aimless noodling around to me has nothing to do with interpretation. That would be a melody written in the score, and an interpretation in my opinion should not change that, that's kinda what I meant by integrity of the composition. Like I get some accents or if looking at the baroque example a turn could be interpreted differently, but you still wouldn't change the progression of a melody that's actually written down in a score

[@liinnnlo2963]

well u actually saved me a while ago so basically in my French test the writing was about a ceremony that i attend and i met my favorite musician and to describe it and i wasn't ready for that and the first person that popped up in my mind was ray chen and i wrote about u and everything IREALLY HOPE TO GET A GREAT MARK ON THAT TEST! 🙂❤❤❤

[@Ketsen]

J'espère que t'auras une bonne note 🤣

[@liinnnlo2963]

@@Ketsen merci beaucoup 🙏💕

[@davefordham14]

People still don't get it. The business of AI isn't to create, but to copy. Computers can copy to a very high degree of accuracy now almost anything that humans can do or say. But they can't create. Because to create something you need to feel. Without emotion, there is no creativity. Let's see if AI can create a symphony as wonderful as Beethoven's 5th or 9th and then we'll have something to talk about.

[@shalemloritsch9382]

Violinist/composer/arranger/sound engineer here, I guessed 6/6 correctly watching this video for the first time. #1 was easy; A had the expected structured baroque sound, while B did "innovative" (and sometimes aimless) things that no baroque composer would have ever thought of. It was immediately noticeable at 1:00, and the solo violin didn't sound quite right afterwards (little things like the shifts, micro-timing, etc.). #2 was even easier; while the quality of A wasn't good, everything was in place. B sounded choppy from the first note (2:32, particularly in the trill), with unnatural timing issues and sloppiness in the solo line throughout, combined with aimlessness (2:44) and jarring key changes (2:48). #3 was harder but became evident when comparing the two. A had a timing/direction issue at 4:04, unusual double-stops at 4:07 (they didn't resonate right), and an impossible harmonic at 4:21 (we can do that on an A, but not on a Bb). Beautifully done though, particularly the passionate singing line at 4:14! Hearing B it was instantly, yes this is human; again, everything perfectly in place. #4 was very easy-there was no structure in A, with a mishmash of random noises tossed into the soundscape. B, even though chaotic, was obviously real instruments on a real stage, playing real notes in real places. #5 was hard, but I got it right. A was aimless and nondescript, with weird tuning issues and harmonic tones/noise tainting the sound. These are not issues you'd see with professional musicians, or with sample libraries, but rather with AI convolving sounds from scratch. B sounded synthesized, but it had musical direction, and consistent defined staging of the instruments. #6 my initial impression was that A was fake due to the strong noise and seemingly broken bass line (10:35), but the clear and natural fiddle playing at 10:50 gave me reason to question that impression. As soon as B started playing, I knew it was the fake one-aimless from the get-go, overlapping violin sounds smeared randomly on the sound stage with varying numbers of voices, weird meter issue at 11:07. So... I knew AI could write music (people have been tinkering with various forms of that for years), I knew it could "hallucinate" photos from scratch based on prompts (either text or imagery), and I knew it could generate/imitate speech, but I had no idea that it had gotten to the point of inventing music at the post-production audio stage with this level of quality! As someone who uses and understands how synthesizers and samplers/sample libraries work, I am impressed with the superior quality of everything AI generated here-it far surpasses anything even the best of those can do. Which makes me wonder what AI could do if we stopped asking it to do 100% of the work, but gave it the musical notes to play, put it into instrumental boxes (i.e. gave it structure, made each instance play a single instrument into a real, reverb engine instead of hallucinating a song from scratch as a complete audio recording from scratch). Could AI harnessed in this way replace sample libraries and take MIDI realizations of musical scores to the next level? I mean, when was the last time any modern composer ever got their sample library to sound as transparent as 1:11, where I was critiquing the lack of baroque style, not the quality of the sound? Even as choppy as 2:32 is, no sample library I know comes close to this level of realism overall. And the beautiful singing, well phrased, violin solo at 4:02? The world's best sample libraries can't even do 20% of this!

[@elias_kohli]

The violin of the Romantic piece #1 has a problem with the stereofield 🧐

[@peggysmith-p5u]

Love your videos, Ray! Especially fun were the faces you made when you couldn't tell between AI and human composers! Your critique of why the sound was either AI/human was spot on. I totally agree about the Bridgerton mixing, as the rhythmic part did drown out the melody! The classical examples really sounded more baroque. And the human contemporary piece was, indeed, kind of cool. P.S. I am lucky to get to see you in Concert July 7, playing my fave Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto...so excited!

[@yoyoeric9907]

I think I got 4-2 as well as an amateur listener. I guessed correctly for the Baroque, Classical, Romantic and even the contemporary, have to say there are still lots of areas for AI to improve. But actually I couldn’t tell the difference for film score and pop, maybe since lots of them they are easy to compose and AI can handle this well, no need to bother good human composer to do that 😂😂😂.

[@Whatismusic123]

AI can't make music, it can only make musical noise.

[@beebeequail]

You know what? I am better than Ray Chen! I got every single one right!

[@conradgittins4476]

I found that the articulation in the solo violin in the first 2 examples and the pop example was a give away. In the 3rd example I was tricked by that wonky phrase just like Ray was. Articulation was a give away in the contemporary example. I have heard live performances where there is real time sampling and reverse playback so the first example was plausible but the second example was clearly human. Film music is there to tell a story and the first example didn't do that (plus it was awful).

[@jerryzhao1436]

Does any else just hear the track and say I quit Or is it just me

[@laurenzschaefer]

Wich AI???????

[@agatafurczyk9149]

The AI interfering everywhere already taught me to ignore too flawless paintings. It is sad, considering some of them might actually be someone's real amazing art... 😐 But I just don't feel like praising pretty things with no heart in them. I might like the way something looks (or sounds) but it's actually the big amount of work and effort and ingenuity it required, that makes me go: Wow!

[@MishaSkripach]

AI vidual art is very far from flawless!

[@SERGIOxMUSIC]

At 7:50 I realized that it is by a human composer because the melody of Dies Irae plays

[@ArtificialPerson]

Guessed all of them correctly, there's still hope for us humans 😅

[@michaelluong6484]

Were the AI compositions performed by humans?

[@o-k9267]

No, that's the point. It is generated.

[@MV-sh9gy]

Corelli's 12 Concerti Grossi are well known. As a violinist, you must know or at least heard them before.

[@0ia]

I won 5-1. You know, the whole reason I enjoy real musicians is that they did the work and practice to determine what is good and share that. It's so annoying to sift through AI to find something better than decent. I don't think people who use AI have taste because they lack the practice and work. Those who are really good composers might as well just do it themselves anyway than drive a car from the back seat. In the same way I don't recreationally listen to mediocre composers, I don't want to listen to AI.

[@leonidzvolinsky8007]

Thanks! It seems that AI in music generation still remains inconsistent, with difficulties in the logic of material development (in terms of intonation, rhythm, etc.)

[@ChopinThepianist]

I started to scare from AI bcz a piece or concerto composed by a wellknown composer. The thing is it took time from him or her like months or years maybe. Now AI is composing a piece in seconds which sounds so good or real like the concerto made by a human. I hope it wont effect the musicians too much

[@MikkoRantalainen]

I think this should have been implemented by converting the human made music and AI made music into midi tracks and then playing the midi tracks with identical virtual instruments. That would have prevented instrument and recording quality affecting the comparision. Interesting video nonetheless and I guess similar round one year into the future is only going to be harder.

[@bernhard9902]

I actually like the romantic AI piece 🥲. Where did you find this?

[@picksalot1]

Please conduct a similar test in 6 months with the latest AI Generators. Given the current trajectory of advancements in AI, it will probably be a very different story. Six months ago, it was pretty easy to distinguish between human vs AI generated music. It is significantly more difficult today, as evidenced by how long it takes to make a choice. I play guitar, with a Classical, Acoustic, and Electric guitar background. There are many Blind Tests on YT conducted to determine if one can identify which are generated using Digital Modelers or Real Amps and Pedals. It is near impossible to tell which is which, and any differences are usually very small and insignificant. I find choosing which one I "like best" a more interesting metric than trying to guess which is which. YMMV

[@WatchOnYT]

I'm a classical musician, composer and AI engineer. TL;DR - Although AI can somewhat replace us, it won't. For the more detailed explanation: AI as we know it today existed for a few years now. What changed everything was ChatGPT - it gave everyone, not only programmers, the ability to use generative AI (GenAI) capabilities. That shuffled the cards - but not for long. It showed the public the power of GenAI, but in my humble opinion, GenAI has no real future. It's extremely expensive to maintain, and the speed barely compensates for the money the model consumes. GenAI works on a very simple model, and I'll explain it usign a language model: You take a word and see what's most likely to come after it. Then you check if it makes sense with everything before. If it does - continue to the next word. If not, try again with the next most likely word. Obviously this is a gross simplification, but it catches the spirit. Now for why it's not going to replace us. GenAI always gives the human what they're most likely to want - not what's most likely to solve the problem. As someone who dealt with product management, this makes a huge difference. I'm not going to go into much detail, but that's the first reason I think GenAI has no future. The second reason connects to what I said above - the money. It's expensive and doesn't necessarily solve problems. What can AI do to solve problems? Imagine being a hospital patient. You start feeling pain. By the time the nurse comes by it takes 10 minutes (at best), and by the time the painkillers hit it takes another 30. This means that you will be in pain for almost an hour before anything happens. Imagine if you could have sensors on your body that using AI could determine when you're going to experience pain and give you painkillers before you experience it. That's much more useful and profitable than cool GenAI features. Sorry for the length lol😅

[@Paws100]

The romantic one I'm pretty sure ended with a slide up to a Bb harmonic, a harmonic that doesn't exist naturally...

[@jaytalking07]

I got all of them - I went for the ones that I either felt an immediate connection or some emotion to (they also felt like they had a consistent direction or a theme), or that didn’t sound a bit warped between notes/parts.

[@12321dantheman]

2/3 for me the AI ones lack coherence, direction, like a vague impression of the styles

[@josevioline]

Actually the Haydn concerto is the C major one not the G major

[@guillaumepolack7598]

Yeah! I thought it was the C major and then he said it was the G major and I was like what?

[@vmineptune8236]

Any musicologist will tell you that music is not just the sound. The audience, time, composer’s life, and influences on that life are equally important to the music itself. Yes the ai is following the voice leading and counterpoint rules for the periods, but the melodies follow tendencies and expectations. The beauty of the best composers is they are able to bend expectations as far as possible within the rules. For example in Beethoven’s piano sonatas he places key areas so far apart in the first and second groupings that it shocks the listener and creates tons of energy. AI doesn’t understand (and won’t) that humans aren’t looking for rules and patterns in the music but how to creatively use the rules to create an allusion that subverts expectations. AI will never be able to subvert expectations like a human because it learns from other music. It’s only when a human has a unique feeling that is then transformed into sound that we create music- not rearrange it. When I asked why I was picked by my composition program to study composition Dr Chen told me it was because “you have a story to tell”. It wasn’t technique or music theory- it was a raw emotional human experience that ai will never have.

[@NhatBui-fz9dt]

I wish you to go to Utah and perform in I love hearing violin concert and I want to play with you but I’m to young to play with you

[@winningspeechmoments9141]

AI sounded better than human.

[@yo6own]

In direct battle, the weight-lifter lost the competition with the crane , the chess master lost in front of the supercomputer, now the composer... But don't despair: there still are some blacksmiths, farriers, steam engine mechanics, chess masters, weight-lifters.

[@glennlavertu3644]

"Stuck in the kitchen of a hotel" is a great title for a song actually!

[@Zeqoll]

My smile was so big when Roundtable Rival played! Such an amazing piece

[@GeniusPigs_1215]

Hi Ray Chen! It’s FamousePianist from Tonic. I know you probably won’t see this message, but I have to say I love your playing and I am so thankful for learning about Tonic. Tonic motivates me to practice and I really enjoy the opportunity to listen to you and other professional musicians practice. ❤ Thank you so much! 😊

[@Dovgalyuk]

This was fun to watch. It was especially fun to see your reaction(s) when you did not get it right, haha. Thanks for all you do to engage (especially with young people)!!

[@dr.pepper3658]

People who won’t get her there 👇

[@chriss6625]

On the romantic one I think he was thinking too much of the violin part. If you look at it from a composer point of view, to me at least, it was pretty obvious that the first one was messed up. It didn’t come together. It wasn’t obvious what was happening harmonically. Easy out.

[@yankees4551]

Difference? Maybe not. I think Jesus is the real music maker. When He inspires people (Bach!) music is great. But I doubt the relation of Mozart with Jesus Christ. And certainly don't think nk Jesus will inspire AI...

[@Chibanah]

I knew the film score, because the AI one didn't sound humanely captivating at all, AI sometimes miss the musical depiction of feelings, tension or actions.

[@PastorBrianLantz]

#@ Counterpoint definitely AI Romantic #1 AI.....no chance #2 lyricism isn't overdone ooops

[@SunAndMoon-zc9vd]

Writing this down as I go: Baroque 1: Sounded human. RIGHT Baroque 2: Something is off in some small parts such as around 1:03. Else, I could be fooled. RIGHT Classical 1: Something is off with the decorations in the beginning. I would guess AI. WRONG Classical 2: Something off in the too long pause. I would guess AI. RIGHT Romantic 1: Sounded human. WRONG Romantic 2: Sounded human. RIGHT

[@jimpinkowski3394]

The Shubert piece has flawless thematic development beyond anything AI is yet able to achieve. As a composition, the IA piece is correct and satisfying on the short scale, but does not develop overall into a "sum is greater than the parts" cohesive musical statement. The true Turing test here is whether or not the composition thematically converges to strengthen as a musical statement, or more simplistically flows predictably note-to-note without actually going anywhere.

[@tmjcbs]

Mozart wrote his music without AI, AI can't write music without Mozart (and all the other composers it steals from)...

[@polymath6475]

you need to time stamp your AI. is it Jan 2024 AI or Jul 2024 AI... because 2025 AI is on a completely different level, 2026 is 100x beyond that, and 2027... never mind

[@Ethanviolin0320]

Ray, I don’t know if you read the comments, but can you please do a how to play czardas like a pro(with octaves) Also, I’m loving the Tonic app❤❤

[@killerecho]

Genuinely curious what AI comes up with in the avant garde category, and whether it can outweird a Philip Glass or Frank Zappa creation.

[@grahamwilson1000]

I would be impressed if Ai was not exposed to the music it is immitating. However, it is simply regurgitating patterns it has been fed. So it will sound similar to the original.

[@SpeckiEggs]

That was cool Ray! Nice editing too 😎 I was also fooled by the same ones you were. Cool format! Looking forward to seeing more ✌️

[@birchflash]

#1 The AI melody is absolutely horrible, so I got that right. #2 The Haydn excerpt is very repetitive, so I got that wrong. #3 Schubert just sounds better, but I wasn't sure, so a ½ point. #4 The AI music is stupid nonsense, so that's easy. #5 The AI music is nice but feels empty, the human music seems as if it's lacking a melody. A ½ point again, I guess. #6 The AI is very generic, pretty easy. 4/6 and a fun challenge. Edit: Forgot the film score.

[@phildiop8248]

5-1. I was unfamiliar with experimental contemporary music so I couldn't recognize which one.

[@catkeys6911]

Aha! I guessed Baroque #2 correctly (because it sounded a little ai-dumb, musically speaking). I got a perfect-score-not-that-anyone-cares on this video. But I'm 71 and have loved classical music all my life.

[@박은희-v9c]

I’m going to your concert in 6/29! Always thank you for making these videos and doing concerts❤

[@hazelnutcase357]

Human vs AI. I don't care. And that view means the originality of composing and performing has already been lost. Krush, Cill, Destroy (all non-biologically formed performers)

[@MandremoU]

765 Comments is a bit much to go through for an answer to my question but, the first 200-300 didn't provide one so I'll ask it: How much human interface was there in programming the AI generator? Was the command simply to "Write 16 measures of music in the Baroque style" or was a specific composer referred to, an orchestration, a date span (i.e. 1650-1685). It would also be helpful knowing what AI program was used to generate these. It is an amazing accomplishment that humanity can design machines that mimic us so well. Brave New World this.

[@xylfox]

I think all ofl those allegedly AI-peaces are no real AI in the way you push a butto"Make a piece in barock/Handel -Style"or whatever style or composer and the result is presented untouched here. . They are AI-AIDED ,human post-processed and finished new compositions. And Chen doesn´t know his Schubert? Hmmm.. Soundtracks: If only one of the two can be human than it had to be Nr.2. Because AI can´t achieve thuch long,variable but reasonable,stringent and good melody-lines.