AIR FLORIDA THE FIRST TRUE DEREGULATION ACCIDENT?

IS THIS WHERE WE ARE HEADED WITH LOW TIME PILOTS?
A REPEAT OF A FIRST TRUE DEREGULATION ACCIDENT?
BUY AIRPLANES, HIRE INEXPERIENCED PILOTS ON THE CHEAP,
OPERATE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT AND EXPERIENCE LEVEL.
AIR FLORIDA ACCIDENT

[@katout75]

As a counter to this, the worst aviation accident to date is Tenerife disaster which killed 583 people from both 747's. The primary cause of the accident was the pilot of the KLM 747 who besides having almost 12k flight hours was KLM chief pilot in charge of all pilot training, chief flight 747 instructor and the head of KLM's flight training department. So while inexperience may contribute to aviation accidents, attitude and arrogance can also kill just as well.

[@ronrogers]

Very true. Maybe I should do a video on very experienced pilots who have done stupid things?

[@AndreySloan_is_a_cnut]

IIRC, a significant factor in Tenerife accident was the Dutch law had recently been changed to criminalize exceeding duty time regulations, which likely put undue pressure on the crew to depart before they timed out - to the point where they assumed they had received a take off clearance, rather than taking the extra time to verify what the actual instructions were.

[@paulcantrell01451]

@ronrogers As a helicopter pilot, I remember this one for the Park Police helicopter crew for saving the people they could. And yeah, one about experienced ppl making stupid decisions would be interesting. I still make mistakes on flights, but over time I've tried to make smaller and smaller ones. The older I get, the less I like scaring myself while in the air! 🤓 One of the aircraft I used to fly is in the Smithsonian ( which makes me an official old fart ), curious whether with all your Edwards time you have any past airframes in a museum? 😇 Love your channel!

[@katout75]

@@ronrogers Yes, please. It would be nice to get your perspective on this tragic incident.

[@katout75]

@@AndreySloan_is_a_cnut Yes, there were so many events happening that tragic day from the bomb explosion at the original airport, KLM parked too close to PanAm since it kinda left first, fog, exit counting on the runway, ATC radio squelch, to KLM captain being impatience for taking off (twice). So many mostly unrelated events happening serially leading up to that "Swiss Cheese Model" of failure.

[@joefin5900]

There are pilots who have natural flying talent whose training enhances their skills. There are others who pass the tests and scrutiny who don't belong in cockpits.

[@davidbaldwin1591]

So true there! I can pass a test. I aced my Open Water 1 paper test in NAUI scuba at 16 y.o. But it took 2 times in a quarry to barely pass that part.

[@venussavage]

Natural flying talent has little to do with flying an airliner safely. That thinking is actually the problem.

[@jeremyrobertson3752]

Yea not really. It’s scary flying with someone who has no talent. @@venussavage

[@mgaeeeee9150]

I know one specific pilot at air canada. Does not belong there.

[@thomaswest5931]

@@jeremyrobertson3752 Respectfully disagree. “Natural talent” is evident in certain types of flying , such as bush pilots, sprayers, fire fighting, aerobatics, and some types of fighter aircraft. But for flying complex systems aircraft, such as modern transports, it’s more about technical expertise, crew management, communication and stress management. Especially stress management during technical problems.

[@Mrjonblakely]

Thank you for saying what others have not said. If they had pushed the throttles forward they would still be flying today. The NTSB report said the throttles were found in the wreckage and they were set at 65%.

[@williammoreno2378]

Captain, you and your peers are not or will ever be considered over paid. Thanks for keeping us safe in our travels.

[@Keys879]

As a first officer on Skywest, entry level with bare minimum experience, they are getting paid $80k+/yr. A couple years in and they are at more than six figures. When they go mainline, it's well into $160-200k/yr. usually. Couple that with most of commercial aviation being highly automated with today's avionics. I am in aviation as a pilot and I think we get paid too much. (not that i'm trying to complain, just saying).

[@AndreySloan_is_a_cnut]

@@Keys879- Sigh…I don’t even know where to begin with this. If you haven’t accumulated (what should be) the requisite stick and rudder skills, along with the knowledge, judgment, all of which contribute to the quality of airmanship which is essential to safely operate an aircraft. If you indeed have those (and many today do not), then you are not overpaid. If you don’t have them, you have ZERO business is any cockpit seat of a Part 121 airliner (and many today do not).

[@Keys879]

@@AndreySloan_is_a_cnut We fly in the era of Automation. Stick and rudder skills are getting to be low on the skill tree. They're not flying B1900's without autopilot or running checks in six-pack Senecas. Beyond flying a tail 7GCBC tail dragger in the bush, pipeline patrol in a C182, or LiDAR work in a C441, the whole concept of stick and rudder is almost laughable. Maybe in the 200's, but those are hastily going away in favor of 175's and 700/900s. Which are heavily laden with automation. Most Commercial flight crews fly autopilot down to minimums (though not all, and some airlines encourage pilots to hand fly as much as possible). 121 Operations are about rote memorization in the event something goes wrong. Beyond that, it's "click n' sip". Being, Rotate, Autopilot comes on, and the coffee comes out. It gets mind numbingly boring. Especially with how efficient and reliable aircraft systems have become. I left a 121 carrier last year in favor of a 91 Corporate gig. Much happier and, would you have it, more 'stick and rudder' skill flying in TBMs, PC12s, and KA350s.

[@Pablo668]

I can't remember a deregulation situation in any industry that has actually gone well. Usually it is a litany of half assing after cost cuts. Sometimes paired up with privatisation in which you get to pay more for an inferior service.

[@theflyingfool]

Amen to that! We have de-regulation & privatisation to thank for lots of bad experiences here in the UK... politicians who only want to line their own pockets and those of their freinds and cronies have been responsible for lots of cluster f**ks over the years.

[@kurtvanluven9351]

Lasik eye surgery. One of the few things in medicine not heavily regulated.

[@Bobm-kz5gp]

My Friend Capt. Dick Thiel took off in a AA 727 in front of Air Florida’s 737 that crashed. Dick was an old school Captain but treated us new hires and crew as his family. Quite a character. We flew the 727, 757, and 767. I was a bit better at using the automation in the 757,767 but Dick was the master of the 727. I became somewhat of a master in the 727 thanks to Dick and the other great Captains that I got to fly with in the 72. I loved the 727 because it was a pilots aircraft. Instrumented with old time avionics, I thought of it like a 500mph Huey with the Hueys avionics and 2 more engines. So much safer than the Huey though.

[@wrightmf]

Your comment reminded me particularly what MentorPilot advocates is senior pilots should be thorough mentors to new pilots. In Rod Serling's book "TWA, the Howard Hughes Airline" wrote of flight crew interaction with the DC-3 when the airplane first entered service. There were some captains that would coach and mentor the co-pilots (FA at the time) but other captains would say "don't bother me, go back and serve coffee to the passengers!"

[@TheFamilyman7]

I was USAF enlisted, walking to the bus at the Pentagon at 15:00. What struck me that day was the large snowflakes falling, light winds and how quiet DCA was. Any other day, you could hear the activity; T/O, landings, taxiing. It was a short ride to Ft. Myer. Walking past the "day room" where the TV was, there was an unusually large number crowded into that room watching the TV. At 6' 1", I couldn't see the TV and had ask someone what folks were looking at? He said, "there was a plane crash into the Potamac by the bridge." On my floor, there was another TV so I hustled up to the 3rd floor hoping there were less viewers. I was still in uniform past 17:30 watching WRC TV-4. It was quite spooky, once the bridge was opened, to drive across and see missing sections of the wall on that bridge.

[@65gtotrips]

I’m 62 and watched that Air Florida crash live. It was crazy watching the flight attendant falling off the skid of the helicopter because she was injured in shock, frozen, and blinded by jet fuel, then Lenny Skutnik dove in and saved her. - I’ve also watched all the different air disaster and mayday shows and I’ve never heard them talking about the cowl heat. The shows typically focus on the amount of time on the runway and that the pilot used the engine heat from the plane in front.

[@user60521123]

The heroic acts of some of the bystanders were incredible at this crash. Some of them jumping into the frozen river to help passengers. I completely agree with your criticism of the de-reg, low cost carriers, Captain Rogers. Not only were they inexperienced and seem to lack some maturity, but didn’t work together. I think there’s a point where airfare can be too cheap and this is the consequence.

[@pastorjerrykliner3162]

Growing up in an airline family (UAL), I remember this accident well. The examples of Arland Williams and Lenny Skutnik always inspired me...I always hoped I would have the courage and character to be able to pass the life-ring to next person or jump into the river when I see someone let go of the rope. Also the Park Police who took off in that Bell JetRanger and then got out on the skid to grab hold of people was amazing.

[@Prototheria]

I've never had the chance to be a hero in my civilian life, but a time or two presented themselves when I was in uniform and when it's go time, there's no thought about if you have the courage, and no thought of fear or failure. It's more of a calculated knee jerk reaction. After the event is when you have the "holy shit" moment.

[@MagnumOpusSRT]

Great video. Excellent presentation and research. You are truly a man of integrity by not crossing the picket line in 1985.

[@ronrogers]

I appreciate that!

[@DanBlake3rd]

Excellent, thorough analysis. My brother was an AF flight attendant holding that trip. Fortunately, he got drafted coming in from the previous one and was somewhere else that day. Dad flew Phantoms, I had my PPL, and was also working as a flight attendant for EAL at the time. So, the crash was much debated by friends and family. You confirmed a lot of what I remember about the accident and working in a deregulated environment. Air Florida had a lot of fine people working for them, but under less than optimal conditions, to put it mildly. I remember being held up for takeoff one day at MIA, because an AF DC-10 had shed a bunch of engine parts as it rolled for takeoff. My brother was 22 years old and having the time of his life going on trips to London, Shannon, and Brussels, but frankly I worried about his safety.

[@planeflyer21]

Thank-you, Ron. I had a friend in the Navy who witnessed this accident from afar and watched the rescue operations, as a skinny teen on a nearby bridge. Definitely had a big impact on him.

[@gregculverwell]

Obviously the captain lacked a survival instinct. You would think that once you realise that you are not going to make it, you would firewall the throttles - the hell with what the gauges say. Any action is better than no action at all.

[@AndreySloan_is_a_cnut]

You're not wrong, but that wasn’t how we were trained back then - we were trained to NOT exceed the engine limitations. They were still training that garbage well into the 1990s on stall recoveries, as well as the idiocy of trying to maintain altitude during stall recoveries into the 21st century - both of which resulted in a number of other accidents. While the NTSB was not incorrect in citing pilot error, they missed the bigger picture of regulators who were more interested in pedantic evaluation of a pilot’s ability to meet arbitrary metrics than to actually operate an aircraft safely.

[@MrKylehornsey]

Reminds of a version of that favourite saying: Better to be down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here. If the take-off isn't going quite right - ABORT NOW!

[@shanec.7105]

Same can be said of Rhodes Aviation in Hawaii. push the throttle up and could've made it to the airport.

[@MrDschubba]

“The JT8D has significant over boost capability” was a line in the FCOM that seemed to etch in my memory

[@Sreybk]

I remember the Air Florida Flight 90 crash well and the brave rescue attempts. Roger A. Pettit - the FO on that flight was an experienced F-15 pilot (A good FO for sure) and knew something was wrong with the EPR readings, but then had second thoughts. The practice of using a 727 to "de-ice" the plane was not an authorized practice. It seems Larry Wheaton shouldn't even have been in the right seat. Good video, Ron.

[@kennethhacker3014]

I remember this like it was yesterday..that woman that was struggling to swim with fuel all over body had a profound affect on me ...rip to all that passed... great job documenting this horrific accident

[@APL314159265]

A friend of mine was in traffic waiting to get onto the bridge when the plane hit it. He had been cut off by one of the cars on the bridge, which saved his life. He is still a very passive driver, he will let a whole line go.

[@BigEightiesNewWave]

I see a line of cars And they're all painted black

[@Kevin_747]

I was a new minted 727 Capt. for a cargo airline at the time of this accident. Sadly all these tombstones provided many airline training depts. curriculum on what not to do. Thanks for the video.

[@mrkc10]

Sure do remember this one way back in the day. Watched it unfold on tv as a kid growing up in BOS. It’s stunning how many failures in the chain of events led up to this crash. I’m bewildered how the FO with his background didn’t press the Capt on not turning on the engine anti ice…sadly we’ll never know. Also stunning is after 2 check ride fails the Capt still had a job. But those were far different times in aviation. Devastating for the families left behind. As I always say you can’t put a price on experience.

[@cdarw]

Great analysis! I recall watching a documentary on this and there was uncertainty about whether or not the deicing was on or off. The pilot's voice on the CVR wasn't clear, which gave rise to the term "onf" because that is what his checklist readback sounded like.

[@jdshemp]

Conformation Bias....

[@wiljam1968]

I watched the recovery live on the news. I’ve been through that scenario in the sim. I’m with you, if the plane is going to hit something because of a lack of performance, it’s going to hit it with the throttles bent forward.

[@alexrebmann1253]

Like your videos, I would like for you to talk about the famous 1994 B-52 crash at Fairchild afb.

[@aviationworld8939]

Ron, In the summer of 2010, I was in Challenger CL604 recurrent training at FlightSafety in Tucson AZ. The subject of aircraft icing came up and the discussion of the Air Florida 90 accident. The FlightSafety ground instructor was an ex Air Force pilot who served in the Air Force with the FO of the Flight 90. I remember the instructor said the same thing verbatim as you describe the captain and the FO. He spoke highly of the FO and said his mistake was that he didn't speak up. I would love to see a presentation on (TWA flight 841) and specifically about Captain Harvey ``Hoot" Gibson whether or not he was guilty of polluting the Flap circuit breaker on the B727. As always thank you for the great presentation.

[@PRH123]

"Greg's Airplanes" has a very in depth look at the TWA incident you mention

[@Kenny-en7wb]

The controller strike was a big contributing factor in AF90..

[@skoffco]

I remember that accident very well. At the time I was flying a Navajo for a commuter airline based out of Pittsburgh International Airport.

[@wayback75]

Ron, I've watched and commented on KZbin numerous videos regarding the Air Florida crash. I enjoyed watching your video as it was spot on and I learned a little more about the crash,, so sad.

[@MorganBrown]

Appreciate your more technical take on this incident.

[@dbolt6543]

I went across this bridge a couple of months later and it was still a disaster zone.

[@rogerrees9845]

Another interesting presentation... Incredibly tragic... easily avoidable... Thank you.... Roger... Pembrokeshire UK

[@B1900pilot]

Perhaps, it could be characterized as you described. Specifically, I’d say it was a case of inadequate training and experience. The Captain had been flying for Air Sunshine on DC-3s and the FO was a prior USAF F-15 pilot.

[@brentsummers7377]

Wonderful job by the helicopter rescuers.

[@planck39]

Was another problem not slush in the engines because of they pushed back with help of reverse thrust?

[@bobcfi1306]

Thank you for that insight

[@TKMechlin]

I recently re-read Ernest K. Gann’s “Fate Is The Hunter”. Many years of hard won experience. Seeing the list of crews lost in these earlier days is very sobering. Safety was always the goal to advance aviation., may it always be that way. Fly safe!

[@ShadesOClarity]

I read an excerpt of "Fate Is The Hunter" where the captain had to backfire the engines to clear the icing situation. Wasn't that in the story? The co-pilot told the story about how good the captain was flying through those mountains.

[@Triple_J.1]

I don't really think "low time" is the root of the problem. Yes, higher time pilots have more inflight scenarios under their belt, plus more training. And probably flew with more pilots and had a chance to pick up skills from the best. But the ATP rating is still 1,500hrs, last I checked. And there are USAF fighter pilots who barely crack 1,500 hours in their career. Yet can perform unbelievably well in the most extreme conditions. Night, low vis, engaging targets and evading defenses while navigating IFR. And possibly all while below 500AGL. The issue in Civil aviation is a generally poor understanding of aeronautical principles, and even certain amount of confusion relating to the basics. This includes civil pilots having hundreds, if not thousands of hours in light aircraft. Icing is one of them. A major one. For some reason, private and many fight instructors can't wrap their head around carburetor icing that can form at 58 degrees on a summer morning. And airframe icing, that is only going to form in visible moisture. Clouds or rain/sleet at or below 0c/32f (plus 5 degrees or so, due to reduced temp, from pressure drop around the aircraft). Many pilots, between the 250 and 1,500hr mark have a wide opportunity to develop bad habits. Reinforce their own misconceptions. Develop an ego. Then press these issues onto the next wave of new pilots, while getting paid for it. Training material is woefully inadequate. It's also needlessly confusing. Even a cursory glance at the basic FAA publication: "The pilots handbook of aeronautical knowledge" has several serious gaffs that undoubtedly get people killed. The most notable is back to back confusion. Where is described camber, and states that the curved upper surface of a wing generates the majority of the lift. Then the next sentence states that symmetrical airfoils are a thing. With NO EXPLANATION that lift is created due to angle of attack. Not camber. Camber simply changes the zero-lift angle of attack. It has almost zero affect on the lift curve slope. It merely shifts it over. Then it describes stalls. And that to recover from a stall, one must lower the angle of attack. It then gives a step by step guide that has lowering the angle of attack as the third item. Behind "disable wing auto leveler" ... as if a student pilot has wing leveler on while practicing stalls, or inadvertently entering a stall/spin on base to final. What are they gonna do? If not till step #3 do they reduce angle of attack? Even in a Cessna or Beech the Pilots first reaction to an inadvertent stall should be to push the controls forward an appropriate amount. The wing auto-leveler is going to take a few moments to deploy the ailerons on the down-going wing. It may contribute to deepening the stall on that wing, creating an incipient spin. But breaking the stall will stop it quicker than trying to remember a needless checklist from a training book.

[@ronrogers]

Yes, I was AF trained and low time there was totally different. How else could a kid like me, in my 20s, with under 200 hours of total flight time fly a supersonic aircraft solo?

[@GaryL3803]

Many of the "1500 hour" holders of an ATP got many of those hours with the autopilot on. Perhaps a few recurrent skill checks or meaningful flight debriefs. So, getting into the right seat with passengers aboard is just the start of their real training. With the same hours their experience will always be behind the military pilots.

[@AndreySloan_is_a_cnut]

You overlook several crucial points, including that the military has a higher acceptable loss ratio than civilian operations.

[@davidpowell3347]

Do people confuse angle of attack with pitch? Although they are very much related?

[@PRH123]

​​@@GaryL3803In EU now, you only need 300 hours to get into the right seat at an airline. But those 300 hours are very intense, and it's considered to be quite safe In the US most pilots build their time working as a CFI. Or flying single pilot cargo operations. And they have to get and maintain their ratings for that, they're not "cruising around on autopilot."

[@wrightmf]

I remember a political cartoon (Herblock I think) where it has an airline on the tarmac titled "hell for leather airlines" with flight crew randomly going through a checklist. At first many thought they didn't set the flaps but later found out engines were not throttled enough. There was a documentary some months after the final report, one of the NTSB investigators was listening to the CVR thinking something is off, the pitch noise seemed low. He managed to isolate the engine noise and through analysis of that sound concluded the RPM was lower than it should be. In that documentary one of the survivors interviewed thought it was very odd they used thrust reversers to back out of the gate.

[@WWPlaysHoldem]

UPS has a 747 Captain that was flying B747 in his 20’s as a Captain!

[@fleetwin1]

May they all rest in peace. I remember this accident like it was yesterday. A tech for UA told me this plane was sold off after having a major electrical meltdown, not that this had anything to do with the accident. Again, I know next to nothing about flying but have read about this tragedy many times and have always wondered if they might have pulled out of this mess if they pushed the throttles up.... I remember 727s always using reverse thrust to back out, your explanation makes perfect sense why this would never be done on the 737 with low slung engines. All we can hope for is that the lessons learned from this horrible tragedy will never be forgotten, so those poor souls didn't lose their lives in vein. God bless the many heros of that day for sure. I get so upset when I see flight crews being constantly broke up here at Heckle and Jeckel airlines during a particular sequence. To me, it takes a few legs to get used to each other, develop a good working relationship, to ensure a safe flight. Sure, I realize that there is a procedure for most everything that goes on, but a good working relationship between the flight crew is just as important. I get very nervous when I see a relatively new FO paired with a pilot who probably is not very easy to work with. Sometimes we forget that "we were all new once".

[@FBWFTW]

Good man for not crossing Ron! #UnionStrong

[@michaeldavenport5034]

I certainly remember this day being stationed at Shady J in North Carolina. We shutdown flight operations for that day due to weather conditions. I didn't even have to report for work that day working swing shift. Back then we got Breaking News, which this was. Sad and tragic event watching the rescue operations unfold. And on 10 March 1989 had Air Ontario flight 1363 go down shortly after takeoff from Dryden Regional Airport. Just watched on another KZbin Channel. Kind of similar circumstances. This changed how Canada flew after this, especially regarding winter weather conditions. Some of the issues you brought up in your video were present in 1989 for this crash.

[@RobD-v3h]

Horrible preventable tragedy. From what I recall there were not several bystanders who jumped into the Potomac to render assistance. There was one. And it wasn't a member of ems who basically watched and shouted encouragement from the riverbank. The person who jumped in was an ordinary citizen who worked as a clerk for the federal govt. The image of Lenny Skutnik shedding his winter coat and jumping into the icy Potomac and swimming out to bring drowning passenger Priscilla Tirado to safety has stayed with me for over forty years. That is the definition of hero. Arland D Williams Jr and the US Park Police helicopter crew are also heroes from that terrible day.

[@geoffreyjames3107]

For 2 weeks I had the same dream every night. A commercial jet under the water, ice and near to a flat bridge. Even dreamed that there was a bell type helicopter. I was engaged to a theatre nurse, so this got WHY? Tx with psychiatric, there was a mood brewing for a head X-ray. I had told in detail about 30 people. The dream stopped an I was happy. 7 days later I got the “turn the TV on” phone call. It was just as I had dreamt. 29 calls later someone asked if I may had pre knowledge, we had generally been as far away from each other without going to space as I live in Australia and didn’t travel os. Geoff

[@ItsNova816]

To the credit of the first officer on this flight, he was an ex-mil pilot who repeatedly mentioned the EPR/N1 discrepancy and challenged during the takeoff roll, but was essentially brushed off by the captain. His last words were literally "we're going down, larry" as if to say "i told you so."

[@PRH123]

The FO was flying, not the captain. He could have aborted the takeoff, but he didn’t. He was also joking about the uselessness of de-icing. He mentioned once that something wasn’t right, could have been the gauges, could have been speed. But why did the pilot flying have his head down on the panel during the takeoff roll. Both of them contributed equally to the result. Poor CRM and lack of clarity on their roles.

[@kevinfoley8105]

Ron, in the CVR recording (which gives me chills to this day), you can hear the 1st officer saying while waiting for take off, "that's not right, that can't be right...well maybe it is" can you tell me what he is referring to?

[@ronrogers]

He is referring to the engine instrument readings probably being off due to the P2 probe icing.

[@briansilcox5720]

I just received an email from a fellow retired airline pilot that described “half of the recent Captain bids at United Airlines going to new hire pilots.” It described these new hire pilots as having some 2000 hours of flight time total experience. I hired on at United in 1985, (570) with 5600hrs. I took a Captain bid in 1992, seven hrs later, something that had not happened since the 1960s. I was definitely challenged, in an environment that was then still flying 1960s technology. Things are much more complex today. I am trying to fathom how this is going to play out safely.

[@ronrogers]

I share your worry.

[@wrightmf]

Regarding CVR recordings, there was a stage play called CVR where the theater group would obtain transcripts from accident CVRs and that would be the script for the actors. The stage setup is a cockpit with actors facing the audience. They would play out the scenario, at the end of the script the stage lights would fade to black. Some flight schools were quite impressed and encouraged many students to attend the shows.

[@65gtotrips]

Those are the quotes which have stuck in my head as well…That’s not right, that doesn’t look right does it ?

[@mikearakelian6368]

I flew with a 135 operator who would pay anyone to do any flight training; recurent checks ar a must in this busness; as an instructor, many of my co workers coildnt pass a recurrent instument check,the boss just looked the other way many coworkers died in wx related incidents. I quit n moved on..

[@jaytowne8016]

Air Flounder was the first of several deregulation crashes.

[@tele767]

There is something different in the training these days. I heard about a large regional that 65% of the Captains only had 500 hours in the in the left seat. And 65% of the First Officers had less than 500 hours at the airline. The inexperience of the pilots ranks in the whole profession is astounding but something must be working

[@65gtotrips]

@Ron Rogers - I can look this up online but would rather hear it from you. Are the military flight hours included in a commercial pilots overall flight hours when working as a commercial licensed airline pilot or separate ? - My intuition says yes.

[@ronrogers]

Yes, military flight hours are listed as first pilot, Instructor pilot, or copilot as appropriate.

[@brianmee5398]

Always wondered what would have happened if they aborted at V1. With the reduced thrust the V1 call would have been far enough down that they would have ended up in the river anyway but without hitting a bridge.

[@ronrogers]

But then, at least, it would have been an over run accident and probably much more survivable.

[@robertmerrill4018]

The Captain was upgraded to the left seat and was hired when Air Florida bought Air Sunshine who flew DC-3’s and handful of piston light aircraft

[@cleekmaker00]

Recall your recent History; the seminal "FRONTLINE" episode "Flying Cheap", broadcast after Colgan 3407. We've seen all this before...

[@RoamingAdhocrat]

TRULY GREAT VIDEO BUT WHY ARE THE TITLE AND DESCRIPTION IN ALL CAPS

[@ronrogers]

I saw a video on youtube suggesting that format but it is a bit like shouting, isn't it?

[@Qs_Internet_Cafe]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN , ALL CAPS ?

[@ronrogers]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Qs_Internet_Cafe]

NOTHING WRONG WITH ALL CAPS, IT CATCHES THE EYE @@ronrogers

[@PRH123]

Back in the telex and old mainframe days, there were only CAPS, no lower case, and some people just carried on into the future writing in all caps. It was pretty common in operations in our airline up to recent times.

[@joes6089]

After this, the FAA mandated that all manufacturers include Icing Definition (anti-ice use) in their AFM. You may notice all definitions are very similar, at least in the 5 or 6 (ATPL;FAR25) aircraft I am typed on.

[@MatyasArby]

Are you involved in flight training/mentouring?

[@ronrogers]

Not any more, to any significant degree.

[@MatyasArby]

I had a retired AF pilot train/mentor me when I got started. He passed on to me many lessons I would never learn from a new CFI. Viewpoints, techniques and philosophy. Just finished working with a retired AA guy to get his type for an instructor position. He's going to be a great influence for those low time inexperienced pilots and in the process save bent metal and lives. Ego sum civis caeli. @@ronrogers

[@davidbaldwin1591]

I remember the events very well, and Reagan calling out the brave people that day.

[@Doones51]

Reagan was the one who pushed airline deregulation so he is partially responsible. He was really good with political platitudes and his TV pitch-man background served him well, but his actions helped cause this.

[@davidbaldwin1591]

@@Doones51 I don't care for politics at all. I was thinking of the man who dove off of the side of the hill, in a selfless act, to try to assist those in the water. He couldn't do much, but it was the thought of trying to prevent further death. I was also impressed by Williams, who kept returning to the plane. As you well know, todays authorities, and a certain manufacturer are notoriously awful at keeping the public's trust. It's a symptom of something much worse to come.

[@charlesjwin]

​@@Doones51The man who pitched deregulation in the airline industry was President hopeful l, Democrat Sen. Ted Kennedy, who recruited a future liberal Supreme Court Justice to bring him issues to campaign upon. Deregulation is something he brought to Kennedy.

[@ChadDidNothingWrong]

Any time you de-regulate literally anything, there is a 'learning curve' for society because certain safety boundaries will have to find new ways to be upheld. (Which the whole point being that the alternate means are less costly [example would be finding ways to economically incentivize the safety in various ways rather than by brute legal force/threat], and sorting out how much of that you can successfully rely on, and then very tactfully regulating from there.) Its like if they were to change the drinking age to 18, you would have complete mess on your hands for several years, but eventually a new normal is found, attitudes evolve, supplimentary laws are established to deal with various unintended consequences, etc., but in the end, the hope is we'd look like every other country with the drinking age at 18, and our terrible drinking culture would likely mature alot lol.....

[@ronrogers]

When I was growing up Iowa and many states had the drinking age at 18.

[@marksamuelsen2750]

I’m a 71yo Veteran and retired Corporate Pilot and over the decades I witnessed a significant amount of hiring in the airline industry. I stayed in the corporate sector because I had a wife and 2 children and could not afford to take such a pay cut. My friends who did take the airline jobs were grossly underpaid and the companies would work them to death. Maximum Duty, Maximum Flight, Minimum Rest and do that every day and every month. .

[@ronrogers]

At my airline, after you got by probationally pay, the pay and working conditions are great. Much better than being an USAF pilot.

[@reganhoward7883]

My company then, Fairchild Industries, lost 14 employees in that crash.

[@Keys879]

Except Pilot Wages are really good right now. You can get entry level into a regional for $60k/yr. and within a couple years transition to left seat for anywhere from $80k-120k and then it jumps when you go mainline. No this isn't the same problem. But Airlines are struggling to find insurance qualified and competent crews regardless.

[@gcorriveau6864]

I think this accident was one of the key accidents that helped drive the much more rigorous Deicing Regs. we have today. Also, a specific "Firewall" drill was soon added to our SOPs with Sim drills and assurances that the engines wouldn't suddenly quit just because they were driven past 100% (log book entry required - grin) ...

[@ManuelFSX]

Well, I just been type rated for b737 300-900 and I have 160 flying hours in total. So…

[@BigEightiesNewWave]

Chalk seaplanes enters the chat!What happened to Chalks seaplanes? Chalk's Ocean Airways Flight 101 - Wikipedia After the accident, all remaining Mallards in the Chalk's fleet were grounded. Subsequently, all were discovered to be suffering from severe corrosion with many showing signs of sub-standard repair during maintenance. Two years later, Chalk's, one of the world's oldest airlines, went out of business.

[@LJDRVR]

Nice video, Ron. Like every pilot I’ve ever known, you lament that if either Larry or Roger would have just pushed the thrust levers up, they would have made it. But this is incorrect, and excuses Boeing for a number of sins. First, in the -200, they designed an airplane that had a pitch-up problem associated with contaminated leading edges. Instead of modifying the design, they buried a caution statement in the FM after they became aware of several near-accidents in Europe involving this modality. Then, during the accident investigation, they were supposed to program the conforming sim (#1) with the mathematics that modeled the ice contamination on Palm 90. Then, with no further testing, the NTSB test pilots were to be given access to the sim for testing the mishap profile. Instead, Boeing repeatedly test flew the profile and tweaked the math, until full thrust cleared the bridge. The crew was definitely to blame. But so was the manufacturer. And we continue to do a disservice to the truth when we perpetuate the lie that full thrust would have flown them out of the shaker. They were already dead.

[@ronrogers]

You are very correct and I do know pilots who have experienced that pitch up. I probably should have delved into that aspect in greater detail.

[@GaryL3803]

@@ronrogers A gentlemen always admits when he is mistaken. Thank you for being a true gentleman.

[@LJDRVR]

Ron isn’t mistaken at all, just not as read up on the minutia. VERY few pilots know of Boeing’s malfeasance as a party to the Palm 90 accident investigation. If you’d like to learn more, John Nance’s excellent book Blind Trust delineates very nicely what Air Florida Captain Jim Marquis discovered while seconded to the investigation. Jim was an Edwards TPS graduate with both experimental and production flight test experience at Vought Temco. Boeing did not play by the rules. In their arrogance, they discounted Jim as some huckleberry airline pilot and let him look at the mathematics involved in simulating the shape of the ice on the wing of that 737. But with his engineering and test background, Jim very quickly saw what had been done. A disclaimer: I put food on the table operating Boeing airplanes. They are a fine company with a storied history. But like any high performing, successful organization, there are episodes in their history where they chose the dishonest path to save money or protect their reputation. (MCAS being the most recent) What we can do is make sure we tell the whole truth when we discuss tragedies such as the Air Florida accident. It was far more than two pilots who made mistakes.

[@ronrogers]

Thank you for your input. I had hoped this would spark more in-depth discussion. There seem to be a lot of people out there who know a lot more details than I do and I appreciate your input.

[@donallan6396]

I understand that irrespective of ice, the 737 was prone to nose up pitch when not using a specific glycol mixture when deicing . Perhaps you can verify or clarify this issue.

[@ericsd55]

This story speaks volumes of these speed tape and safety wire cheap airline’s training department. Suspend a pilot for failing a check?

[@vinquinn]

why don't they di-ice the airplane at the entrance to the runway instead of making them wait and taxi in the snow?

[@ronrogers]

Some airports they do, but it takes a lot of space and that does not exist at many airports, especially DCA.

[@PRH123]

There needs to be a specially equipped area for de-icing, with drains to catch the fluid, where the fluid is stored and filled, etc.

[@Aerogamer158]

This is a result of making a requirement for all 121 certificate owners to staff ATP pilots, the retirement of older pilots, and airlines not hiring during COVID but letting people go instead. There is more going into it but here is the top couple.

[@bartofilms]

Watching this post 737 M9 door plug failure. 1/2024. The facts you’ve presented are almost as alarming as the unknowns in this crash, which I remember well. The aspects which bother me most: They had access to de-icing services but didn’t use them. They had engine cowl de-ice, but didn’t use it. They had inadequate thrust indications on their engine instruments, but continued to take off. They must have reached normal rotation zone without adequate lift, but proceeded anyway. The former F15 pilot in the right seat either didn’t notice any of these anomalies, or chose to ignore them. Did they test the pilots’ blood for alcohol and/or drugs? Did investigators inquire at their hotel to see if they’d broken the FAR ‘Bottle to Throttle’ regulation? Even if they were not technically drunk, might one of both of the pilots suffered from decision-making impairment?

[@Tadesan]

This is how every business has ever run. Find a loophole. Call it service. Profit.

[@stephengrimmer35]

2,322 hrs on jets, 1,700 on type and he made captain after 1,100 hours?

[@ChadDidNothingWrong]

i feel like always listening to pilots' input on daily operations and their experience is going to keep a lid on potenitally half of any problems that can ever arise the other half may be more complicated as much of it involves maintenance and manufacturing imo.....much more of a tangled mess.

[@grahamstevenson1740]

Like yourself, I was always mystified why the pilots didn't simply firewall the throttles when the plane started to stall.

[@bobmcgehee1749]

Most likely

[@47colton]

A terrible accident for sure. I get the feeling the point of this discussion was to bring to light a similarity about the "quality of the post deregulation pilot pool " and the pilot shortage we are experiencing now? Many of us have seen what is happening at our airlines and have been warned to be very careful about what we say on social media. Things won't be said that really should be. Not just about DEI but about training and experience and the right attitude and true pilot professionalism.

[@65gtotrips]

DEI is a serious problem factor

[@rwalkenhorst]

With all due respect, I believe it is a mistake to blame this crash on airline deregulation. It is my understanding that the deregulation of airlines was similar to the deregulation of the trucking industry in that it mainly did away with government control of routes and fares. When I drove tractor-trailers in the 1970s, our company had a team of lawyers working full-time to get new “authorities” to haul specific goods to specific places. They would post notices of any new ones they obtained on a bulletin board at the main terminal in Houston. I recall reading one time that they had received the government’s blessing to haul car wash parts between Houston and Michigan. Sheesh, talk about micromanaging! These barriers to entry for new operators turned interstate trucking into an elite club where what mattered most was political connections. When a startup came along, the established companies’ lawyers would gang up on it by arguing that the existing service was already meeting consumers’ needs. The burden was on the new guy to prove that it wasn’t. This harmed consumers and had nothing to do with the safe operation of trucks on the highways. Similarly, any connection made between airline deregulation and pilot competence is tenuous. This is still one of the most heavily regulated industries on earth. Doesn’t the DOT regulate “tarmac delays,” all the way down to requiring snacks for passengers after two hours? And most importantly, doesn’t the FAA still certify pilots and aircraft? If unqualified airmen are in the cockpits, or door plugs are flying off, the blame falls squarely on the government entities that have appointed themselves arbiters of safety, not on free enterprise. Edit: BTW, subscribed!

[@ronrogers]

Thanks for Subscribing! I think the main issue I was getting at was just the lack of experience. FAA certifications are always minimums and most people, especially passengers, want experienced and competent pilots at the controls. You just don't get that with someone who just passes basic muster. I was an inexperienced pilot in the Air Force, but I was under Extreme oversight. That just doesn't happen in the airlines where you operate with a much lower lever of oversight.

[@SKIPWOOD-UA777CAPT]

Deregulation wasn't the problem with inexperienced flight crews because there was a glut of pilots who trained after Vietnam using the VA benefits. Maybe it was the company hiring practices? Did he know someone at the company? If the F-15 pilot was such a 'HOT STICK', why didn't he see all these problems? They use check lists in the military. I'd be interested in your synopsis of the 1713 crash out of Denver. UA777 Capt (ret)

[@ronrogers]

Very interesting similarities with 1713. I think I will put something together on it.

[@SKIPWOOD-UA777CAPT]

Excellent... enjoy your videos and reminiscing. ... @@ronrogers

[@waynemayo1661]

"Deregulation" in this instance would not/does not apply to aircrew flight hours. Both of these men had more than 1500 hrs, as did the Colgan Air piiot. I submit that it's not the number of flight hours, but the quality of those hours. Better 650 proper hours than 1500 hours with too many doing banner towing or giving flight training, etc. Air Florida's not taking more action to react to the Captain's lack of KSA (knowledge/skill/ability) was a major component. BUT, how many of TODAY'S carriers really do more to remove barely competent pilots vs. just demanding yet more (obviously ineffective) training? The unions would scream. Management would not want to go through the hassle. Probably, if they were to fired, they would just go to a regional or corporate job. As for greedy owners and managers, I have nothing but contempt. As for the FAA which approved such airlines to get started, blame Congress which passed the law changes that enabled, and required the FAA to do so. The accident, which I remember, was a tragedy. I watched the news coverage and just couldn't understand how it could have happened.

[@AndreySloan_is_a_cnut]

You understanding is overly simplistic. You are partially correct - quality of hours does make a difference, but so does the QUANTITY of quality hours - did you accumulate 1500 (or better yet, significantly more) hours, or did you simply gain one hour of experience 1500 times. The solution is NOT watering down already too diluted standards, but setting the bar higher. Make it 1500 hours, of which not more that 500 can be dual given to be eligible for the ATP certificate (and in turn, a seat in a Part 121 cockpit). Part 121 Air Carrier operations are highly structured by design, and afford a pilot limited opportunity to gain basic airmanship skills and knowledge. If they don't have that tool set when they arrive at an air carrier, it may be an extended period of time, if ever, before they obtain them.

[@vanstry]

But there aren't any low time pilots anymore. The feds upped the hours needed.

[@ronrogers]

Just for copilots.

[@davidpawson7393]

My father boarded Flight 90 but complications from a recent surgery caused him to take a later flight as this complication involved very long and painful bathroom interactions. That being said I've never been more terrified of flying, actually never was, than right now for both reasons of diverse technology, see Boeing blowing their own doors off, and the other diversity, again Boeing is a perfect example or for a more diverse reason let's look at Amazon and the pilot that nosedived till the wings came off into the water. Media? Silence.

[@scotabot7826]

You and I think alike.

[@matthewota3647]

I think deregulation reduced the quality of commercial flying for passengers.

[@ronrogers]

I agree

[@michaeldavenport5034]

I also remember this one. Happened when I was living in England. August 22, 1985. British Airtours Flight KT28M, a Boeing Model 737-200 series airplane, was taking off from Runway 24 at Manchester International Airport, Manchester, UK, when the left engine experienced an engine failure.

[@BigEightiesNewWave]

Boeing has another new problem... (Boeing) “We have informed the FAA that we are withdrawing our request for a time-limited exemption relating to the engine inlet de-icing system on the 737-7,” Boeing said in a statement. “We will instead incorporate an engineering solution that will be completed during the certification process.” This means entry into passenger service of the MAX 7, the smallest model of the MAX family, will be significantly delayed until Boeing can design a fix for the flawed design and get it approved by the Federal Aviation Administration. It will cut Boeing’s promised cash flow for the year, though by how much is not yet clear. And key MAX 7 customer Southwest Airlines, which has 302 of the jets on order, faces inevitable delivery delays.

[@amalekedomite]

Diversity hiring is another aspect of the managed decline the entirity of western civlisation has apparently been subjected to.

[@wotan10950]

Captain, I’m surprised that you would link deregulation and safety. You, more than others, know full well that deregulation ended the era of the CAB, which set prices and routes, but had absolutely nothing to do with safety. The FAA has had responsibility for overseeing safety since the Eisenhower Administration. That you would conflate these two issues is a disservice to your viewers.

[@jimgandee2570]

This was a horrible accident especially after after reading the NTSB’s final report! The TO should have been rejected at the first sign of an issue but barring that, and at the very, very least push the damn throttles up!

[@BigEightiesNewWave]

Other airlines were grounded, they had gotta fly syndrome.

[@905Alive]

Corporations and private equity do not care, they were warned as were many businesses by the govt from 2000 on that baby boomers would be retiring in droves and you need to get people in the pipeline and trained now, especially pilots and nurses, they saw it as a waste of money, cutting into profits, now we have a lack of nurses and pilots and the ones coming aren't well trained. I know one airport that trains pilots and they never climb above 200ft, now if that's all you're doing and never even reaching 1000ft how are you prepared to land real aircraft?? Emergency training is abysmal.

[@sonnyburnett8725]

After de-regulation, it was a great time for new airlines to expand and legacy carriers to do the same. Truthfully, there were and are always pilots available with true experience out there at that time for airlines so the only true cause is training. I flew with an Air Florida Captain about four years later and he felt the same. Not that it meant anything, Like all accidents. The lesson learned was the confirmation of simply looking at the other power engine instruments during T/O to confirm the power setting. N-1/N-2, fuel flow etc. It’s important to note that United Airlines and ALL Legacy air carriers had similar or other accidents as well. As a Captain for a new carrier in the eighties,. It was sad to see and actually hear pilots from these legacy carriers say things like why don’t you go bankrupt so we can make money. Over time, economics leveled the playing field and I believe we came out ahead. AWA became AA.

[@57Jimmy]

At least it would be consistent with Boeing reliability…😮

[@kurtvanluven9351]

Wrong issue. The issue is regulatory capture. Pilot unions and even major airlines with the blessing of government artificially constrict the number of pilots trained. Also the relationship between the FAA and airplane manufacturers. Very few people outside the industry have the knowledge to even understand the highly technical nature of the current over-automated planes. Much the same issue in healthcare because of the AMA.

[@vanstry]

This accident is one of the ones I point to when people say that someone is a competent pilot because they have hours. Hours really don't mean that much.

[@ronrogers]

Hours mean that you have probably been exposed to enough events that if you were a bad pilot, you would probably be dead.

[@AndreySloan_is_a_cnut]

@@ronrogers - Exactly. Those who say hours don't matter overlook the fact that certain skills and knowledge elements that aren't learned earlier in a pilot's career will possibly never be learned because of the very restrictive nature of Part 121 operations.

[@jdshemp]

@@ronrogers The luck "Cup" is full, and the experience cup is empty.......

[@TheChipMcDonald]

People today have learned to accept slackness and risks, the Bottom Line is treated as religion now. In other industries it creates problems, in this one death.

[@bartsolari5035]

Beat you did not like Clay Lacy either

[@ronrogers]

That SCAB! No, not on my good guy list!

[@marcjohnson4884]

Ron, I washed out of air force pilot training, have had more checkride failures than I can remember in my lousy part 135 career - so I pretty much fit the mold of the Air Florida pilot you are crapping on post mortem here. Not all of us are super fighter and test pilots such as yourself. But I bet you've never flown a Caravan in the NE for 15 years because thats the only job you could get. There is definitely more than 1 path in an aviation. I think that mainline cockpits are full of pilot's who lack humility. People who get there too easily and people who have lost touch. You should all be put back in a banner towing airplane, or a C152, or a Caravan running Jamestown to Buffalo in March for a while. Just my 2 cents.

[@stephenwalton9646]

As a graduate of the order of the sleepless nights allow me to say this. Aviation is a tough profession and not everyone ends up where they want to. That said, Ron wasn’t shitting in anyone. Facts are the facts. I posted above the experience a friend had firsthand with the Captain. He was a great guy in the wrong line of work. As for your assumption that the ranks of 121 carriers are filled with prima donnas , sorry, from first hand experience, it’s just not so. Yes there are a few,”Individualists,” but they are by and large few and far between, generally shunned. It would take a totally ignorant person to not realize that the guy hauling night freight in a B-18 or C-208 is doing a lot more work than the guy/gal in a 121 level jet. I’ve honestly never run into someone like that.

[@65gtotrips]

To say Ron is crapping on the FL 90 pilots is just not true. I’m not even a pilot yet understand these are the facts which presented themselves from the NTSB investigation. No, not everyone is cut out to be a 727, 747, 777. A330, A350, or A380 pilot but to say they’re prima donnas is totally unfair and off the mark. Some men and women are naturally gifted with certain traits of memory, confidence, tolerance to pressure, multitasking, organization, and decision making skills which are just on a different level then others. Yet that does mean an airline pilot has the skills to build or design a skyscraper, or be a surgeon, or whatever. It takes hard work and dedication to master skills of anyone’s profession, so stop whining at Ron about his success. Are there strong Type-A personalities in aviation ? Absolutely, but being obtuse is often mistaken for self-confidence; You want a certain level of tempered hubris because it takes a lot of time and dedication to fly a 300 ton aircraft knowing you’re responsible for the lives of the passengers in the back of you. What about all the women pilots who we regularly see administering their A-330’s or 767’s, it’s not so much physical strength but a certain panache of long hours, paying your dues, teamwork, education, time, money, and dedication to become a good trustworthy pilot with the required technical knowledge of their aircraft who understand the boundaries of their knowledge and when to go to the next level.

[@PRH123]

@@65gtotrips hmm, there are nonetheless prima donnas out there…. young captains in our airline had the worst reputation…. The older guys were all great… we had a young captain refuse to depart STN because catering provided coke instead of Pepsi, he held the flight while ramp agents ran through the terminal looking for a vending machine…. two hour delay for 80 tons of transatlantic express cargo…

[@dutchpilotguy]

The answer is “yes”. But, it won’t be solely due to pilots. The entire ecosystem of aviation is fundamentally broken and infiltrated by complacency. Blood priority seems to reign.

[@tbm3fan913]

Is it just me or in listening to these stories over the years I get the impression that airline pilots (some?) when presented with an abort situation, rather than do the smart thing, they continue their takeoff to disaster.

[@lbowsk]

Well, that's easy for you to say isn't it. Stuff happens very quickly in airplanes and pilots don't have often don't have all the information that you may while reading the report. And as a general rule, about the LAST thing any decent pilot wants to do is a high speed abort. They can be very dangerous. In fact, in modern airplanes (the G550 for example) they only want you to abort a high speed takeoff for one thing...loss of directional control.

[@ronrogers]

The industry has been pushing very hard on the go decision. Way too hard in my opinion.

[@greenefieldmann3014]

You caps lock is on.

[@WWPlaysHoldem]

EU pilots take the right seat of airliners with only 200 hours!

[@AaronHarberg]

Thanks alot Larry Wheaton!! And the weak first officer who should have taken control, you got yourself and the passengers a one way ticket to HELL!! How about the poor guy in the flattened Mercury Cougar on the bridge?

[@fitzpatrickgf]

It's 2024! Not 1982 anymore! We have simulators now to train/test low time pilots hands on for all flying scenarios and to accelerate them into any seat they desire. It's the passion of flying that any young pilot would be thrilled to get a kick start into their career. The Air Florida accident is now prehistoric as well as any accident before 1990's. Aviation is so far advanced now that the only thing holding low time pilots back and from getting into the airlines is out dated FAA Regulations and the Airlines Insurance Agencies. Most pilots can go abroad to other countries around the world to fly if they wish because those airlines too are short of pilots and need to fill seats regardless of how many hours. FAA Requires 250 hrs for a Commercial Cert to be compensated for hire. They can easily be brought into any training course in 2024 to accelerate getting an ATP and, yes, to go straight into the left seat of a 747-8 if they truly have the heart to do so. You say that you wouldn't sir and for you at the time was a wise choice, but you cant speak on behalf of those who say they can. Someone else Ego is always a disappointment downer to those eager young kids who have the talent to go for it and succeed at it.

[@ronrogers]

Those that do not, or are unwilling to learn from the past, are destined to repeat it. You look young in your picture. If you are involved in aviation I suggest you copy your post and re-read it 10, 20, 30, 40 or more years in the future and see if you still agree.

[@fitzpatrickgf]

@@ronrogers I was 52 when I took that picture and I am now 55. Unfortunately I got a late start in Aviation. I was 30 years old back in 1999, gaining an Associates in Aviation Flight Technology at the Jackson Community College Flight Center located right on the field at KJXN in Jackson, MI. It was a thrill for 2 years earning my Commercial/Instrument and CFI there. I was on the trailing edge of using the steam gauges and never adapted to continuing with the changing technology for reasons that in order to do so, I would have to go bankrupt to keep investing in myself, which in time I had to start paying those student loans back. Commitment to aviation is a completely different lifestyle and breed, knowing that it would keep me from settling down to raise a family. 20 years Later! I am older, my feelings still remain the same and very disappointed that regardless of hours and experience, planes still crash regardless of who is in that seat. I lost a few bold pilot instructor friends where safety was not a concern to them. I was almost in the right seat at an operation learning to dispatch when I came across that instructor again when he told me to get my multi-engine. I left that operations within a few days because of the shady operations they ran. That instructor crashed a Lear, killing himself and the first officer onboard. It was a blessing, but like I said, it can happen to anyone. I do believe that younger pilots fresh off a Commercial Check Ride are ready for the right seat. Don't delay their dreams while they are focused and eager to get started with their next step in their careers in the airlines. We need to get rid of all the barriers that prevent them from succeeding. I for one, am a high percentage of drop out pilots, due to financial exhaustion and hardship that is never talked about in our aviation communities. The ones that can stay are usually taken care of by their Doctorate/Attorney parents paying for it. Times have changed as well that diversity gets more recognition these days then a qualified pilots capabilities and experience. I can go on forever, but I have decided that if I do get back into flying anytime soon, it will be exciting for me to get recurrent again and it will be for the pleasure of flying only! It will never be for any career, because its a joke these days with all the smoke screens up on why the industry continues to struggle! Too many chiefs of regulations refusing any attempts to reform on how to safely hire new low time pilots, who are mislead to think they will just walk in and get a career without the financial burden that causes most of the blood sweat and tears over the flight training or gaining the certificates and ratings. Flight Training will always the fun part!

[@ronrogers]

Interesting response that I did not expect. I can understand and agree with your concern and frustration. My family was not poor but there was no way I could afford to pay for any sort of flight training. At most, I could afford one lesson a month and that was not going to cut it and the instructors told me so. So I went into the Air Force. Not an easy road and very hard to get into. But I did and got the best training in the world and did well. I was getting a double masters in engineering and the AF decided they needed me to head the flight control department at the Flight Test Center for the F-16. I want to fly. Got out and got an airline job and never looked back. Sorry you could not follow your dream. I hear many such stories.