Air Rifles and Gas Pistons : American Airgunner Round Table

The topic at this extended American Airgunner Round Table is Air Rifles with Gas Pistons and Nitro Pistons in air guns. Also known as gas ram, gas strut, and gas spring. Tom, Jim the American Airgun Hunter, Rick of Airgun Web TV, and Rossi Morreale host of American Airgunner TV talk about what they are as well as the advantages and disadvantages.
#airgunnertv #gasram #nitropiston

[@captainpegs0740]

I'm not even into air rifles but this round table series is really interesting and well done :D

[@Britspence381]

Very interesting discussion. I'm sticking with my steel springers, have had good service with them since the '80's.

[@jasoncohran7265]

All three guests are great. Good info!

[@addertooth1]

It is worth noting that in the 3 years since this video was posted, technology has marched forward. Gas springs have advanced in design, and are now living up to the early promises (on the more expensive gas spring guns). Several gas spring guns in the $200 to $370 dollar range have appeared on the market which are quite sweet. Now in the defense of classical steel spring airguns, they can be modified and tuned to be much better than how they left the factory. With the gas spring air rifles, you can usually update the trigger, scope mounts and scope to gain some improved characteristics, but that is about it. Many of the people who upgrade their classical steel spring rifles to a gas spring are happier with their airguns. There are now gas ram upgrade kits even for highly reputed RWS rifles (vortex spring). The technology of the new gas springs are now powering up to 30 caliber rounds (Hatsan 135), but most typically are seen at 177, 22 and 25 caliber. There are gas spring rifles out now which achieve 26 foot pounds of energy (FPE) with no modifications with lead pellets. There are even a few gas spring airguns which give a little more (28 to 31 FPE). Keep in mind recoil is still an issue with gas air rifles, just not as much of an issue as a classical steel spring. A novice will always shoot better with a Pre Charged Pneumatic (PCP) air rifle, and have tighter groups when shooting. However, with a good spring air (and some serious practice), half inch groups at 25 yards are quite achievable. If you are of the mind to deal with scuba tanks, or bicycle pumps on steroids, or expensive electrical compressors, a PCP will shoot tighter groups at the same distance. Most of the PCP air rifles will also produce more FPE as well. PCP airguns are also more gentle on the scope, so you can be a bit less selective on the ruggedness of the scope. For the basic small critter hunter, who just wants to go out and do some basic hunting and target plinking, the gas spring air rifles are simpler to use. It represents a good starting point for most people who want to get into the airgun experience without a lot of cost and equipment.

[@RyanSpringer1984]

I think the Hatsun is the only gas ram I would buy, other than that spring is easy & cheap to replace.

[@virtuallyaesthetic1790]

Great write up!

[@MasterKoala777]

What a great discussion. I just ordered my first air gun, a Crosman Vantage NP .22 (nitro piston, break barrel) and will get it in a couple of days. I hope you guys get together for an updated round table on this ❤️

[@robertanderson9375]

Crosman Vantage NP is a great gun. Very accurate and well built. I bought one over a year ago, shoot all the time.

[@airram2107]

I like the "round table"! I learn a great deal from it! Air Ram....UK As for Jon's comment, The "Youngest dude" as you put it, is trying to make things as clear as possible for those new to air gunning! Or are not up to date with rolling technology, so he has to cover everything, and sometimes in a debate, things can be repeated! I like the laid back approach they have! Anyway, I guess we all have the right to express what we feel!

[@warywolfen]

To my knowledge, the first gas-piston design was the British Theoben Scirocco, which came out in the early 80s (I think).

[@ianmangham4570]

Yes

[@Happy-Me.]

I guess that eventually became the HW90.

[@goodgirl99us]

A spring gun won the Crosman cup in Ohio 2014 against PCP guns, so don't count them out.

[@lorenray9479]

A boink sound is not a problem to dead rats. Reliable springs is better than 3 returned gas piston defectors.

[@maxmays9480]

the most reliable option is coil over strut.

[@pissedoffpapa2841]

I was considering a Gamo maxim for my first REAL AIRGUN, but after listening to you gentlemen I am going with the Diana RWS34. Great vid. THANX!

[@DocMustafa]

Please tell me you bought the Diana. 3x better than Gamo.

[@suco.man34]

You are right! I own gamo whisper igt .177 and a Gamo Swarm magnum, both are crap! I sold them. Now I have a Diana RWS 350 magnum and i love it! I hope this year buy the Air Arms TX200 mkiii.... Diana or Air arms is all you need to have the best air guns!

[@italian_badger1660]

@@suco.man34 same here man, just got myself the Diana 350 magnum aswell and I'm loving it. What weight pellets do u use just out of curiosity?

[@suco.man34]

italian_badger16 hello! I use the H&N baracuda hunter extreme .22... I hunt wild pigeons. I can take down pigeons with shot 50 yards away... The Diana 350 Magnum is an awesome air rifle, but just one advice, because the high recoil of the rifle you will need to put a very good scope. When I bought the RWS350 I put it the Leapers UTG AO True hunter and after 400 shots lost the Zero... now I put it the Vortex Diamondback Tactical and works great. The magnum air rifles need good scopes most of them expensives like the air rifles but it works! Regards

[@italian_badger1660]

@@suco.man34 thanks man yeah I got a, good scope for her already. I'm shooting .177 h&n barracudas as well though, good luck man and have fun.

[@sordello51]

Great conversation! I have owned a RWS Model 46 for over 20 years - It nearly retired my Ruger 10/22. Around 4 years ago my 46 dissapeared - yes, it was stolen. Last week after months after thinking about the delemma of no .22 ammo available and missing my RWS 46 I ordered a RWS 460 - In my mind I went through the entire discussion that these guys went throgh. I generraly agree. Yea, the springer won out over the Nitro gas spring in the end - I even considered a PCP or two! My two favorite springers are the the RWS Model 46 and the Webly Tempest. I wanted to keep things simple! I will soon get my first new springer action rifle in 20 years - ;)

[@Romans--bo7br]

sordello51 I know it's been a year since you've posted this... but, I was wondering how you like the "460" after this time of ownership.... as I've been considering a "460" (.22) as well.... though I wish that Diana & Weihrauch would produce more .25 cal options in their offerings (as does, Hatsan). I currently have several (each) of Diana's and Weihrauchs and they are, by far... my favorites, of the sixteen (16) in my growing collection of springers (No - "gas" rams).... Not counting, my pcp's and multi-pump Sheridans and Benjamins of various years & models. I only have one (1) RWS/Diana (RWS is Only the "marketing" agent for Diana.. NOT, a manufacturer... Diana IS the mfgr) "side lever" and it's the 48... in .177 cal. and only because I found it in a powder burner store as a trade in... but, I love the side lever for shooting in "prone" position as I don't have to "roll over" every time to re-arm it.... so, am currently waiting for the "48" to get back in stock in .22 cal.... as my cal. of choice (minimum).... but, again... wish they were available in .25 cal. - especially for hunting. I do have a .25 cal. Benjamin "MRod"..... and it's deadly accurate... but I refuse to buy into all the "extras" of tanks, etc.... so I "hand pump" my pcp's...... my Benjamin Disco's and XS60C (Generation-2 Xisico from Mike Melick at "Flying Dragon Air Guns dot com) are real easy to pump up with my hand pumps (Benjamin & also a Hill -Stage 4) and the MRod is easy to pump up / re-charge as well.... Up to about 2,400 / 2,500 psi.... it's that last 5 - 600 psi that can be a real "work out" up to 3,000 psi. I love the self contained simplicity of the "springers"..... I just really wish they would make the .25 cal much more available as as optional caliber, with all the various makes & models that are "out there".... as Hatsan does. The only problem I have with Hatsan.... is their "quality control"..... or, should I say... Lack, thereof...... unfortunately, with them... it's a complete "roll of the dice".... as to whether or not... you'll get a "good one".... that isn't suffering in one way or another... whether it be trigger issues, wood issues (ie: stripped out trigger guard screw holes... or, No wood under the guard to even screw into, etc), accuracy issues... which, many times is sourced from another ongoing issue, which is "bad" pump seals, which is, more often - than not.... caused by the pump bore not being properly finished and deburred, which takes out the seal, which in turn, leads to inconsistent air pressure to the pellet when shot.... which of course, leads to shot "groups" as large as 3 or 4 inches at only 20 yrds.... and even closer..... as has been my experience with several of them. Overall, the Hatsans are a Very "robust" gun... they just need to be Well Tuned and gone through to the "Nth" degree to "realize" the "diamond in the rough" that they definitely have the "built in" potential to become.... it's just a shame that the Factory seems to be SO lacking in making sure that more of what goes "out the door"... isn't a lot closer to what they certainly have the potential to be..... instead of having air-gunners to shell out even more money to a "Tuner" to bring it up to what it should be - from the factory. Now, that I have a very nicely built spring compressor.... I do all my own tuning... which I love doing, and love seeing the results, both on the chrony.... and even more so... in the experience of a Much finer shooting "piece". : ) I would love to hear back from you, and your thoughts on your personal Diana 460, a year later. Thanks and Take Care.

[@Gieszkanne]

+2Stroke Diesel Power In Germany (see on their german homepage Weihrauch-Sport) you can get any model in .25 (6,3) The 80,85,95,98,77,97,90. exceptional the smaller 30 or 50 because they dont have enough power for .25. The strongest springer is the HW80 and would be the best choice for .25. The HW 90 is a gas piston and even stronger than the 80. Diana offers the 48,52,54 and 56 models also in .25.(on their german homepage)

[@JojoCrazyCat]

The place i live, i have only seen the 177 and 22 pellets. I would have to order the 25 online. I have around 10,000 pellets. Only in 177 / 4.5 and 22 / 5.5 And is different type of heads. Hollow points, flat heads, piercing points, and even points that split when they hit. To me flat heads are good to help keep the pellet from going out the other end of the target.

[@louispeters2105]

Alloy pellets can be more durable than lead and with a little grease and a .22 blank from home depot. And .. .. ..( socialist comi university kids loose there mind.) Lol Lead pellets FAIL. skirt expands and coats barrel with lead then disintegrates leaving barrel (micro bird shot). Durable allow pellets will not disband its energy inside its targets rather leaving symmetrical hole front to back (small/medium game hunting considerations).... Be safe... be smart and GOD bless

[@sordello51]

It wasn't long to decide the RWS 460 was not a field rifle. It was heavy and although it was accurate its recoil was - different. If you sight in off hand the hit point was very different when rested. Not by a little bit. Nearly 4 to 6 Inches different. For a field rifle it's very heavy! I can't say I hate it but I don't love it. I want a model 46!

[@mava5634]

lots of information around this table about air guns, very well done

[@hunter100t]

Ben Tayler got the idea of the gas ram from his motorcycles suspension system. and the theoben gas ram is the rolls Royce of all the lookalikes and don't leak or fail, in fact you can raise the pressure or lower it in the ram yourself to fine tune the rifle.reason you can hold a gas ram almost how you like ? Its because of the unbelievably fast lock time that a gas ram offers in its short stroke.To get round an airguns double recoil especially on a gas ram is to use dampa mounts for your scope, I fitted some on mine over 25 years ago on a fac version 26 ftlb and have never moved or broken a scope.

[@Paintballinmike1]

Theobens are not leak proof. There are lots of reports of them losing power just as there are a lot of reports of them lasting decades. Unfortunately with these reports the things that are omitted are shot count, user experience, and other situational variables that lead to the failure. Everyone gets lemons, theoben is no different.

[@hunter100t]

Paintballinmike1 Well they do go up and down in power now and again but only slightly, but thats compressed air for you it is vulnerable to outside air pressure, and temperature, but theobens are not the gas struts that are fitted cheaply to what seems to be every break barrel in America and elsewhere these days, mass produced and poorly constructed. I have several hand built quality Theobens that have never let me down over the decades I have owned and extensively used them. Shot to shot consistency is better than any air rifle I have ever used including regulated pc's, strings of ten or more shots being only plus or minus 1 fps with 3 or 4 being exactly the same, In terms of accuracy I used to turn up at FT comps in the 90s and regularly beat the pc's, and could 1 thumbnail size hole out to 60 mtrs with ease. this is why I still have and will never part with any. no lemons here or anybody else's that I know about, Its about quality not mass produced rubbish. If you get the chance to own one, then do it,

[@Paintballinmike1]

+hunter100t yeah, I actually have been looking REEALLY hard at the hw90s. I actually hunt with a Gamo bull whisper. Not as tight of groups as weihrauch obviously... but I can pop an egg at 50 yards pretty consistently (kodiak.22s) . The Gamo gas strut is made in South Africa I believe. As much as I hate their advertisement they are the only manufacturer (that I know of) to do a 10k torture test. Oh... Did I mention my gun is under 5 lbs with a see all sight? Great brush gun. I like the hw90 because I grew up on German beemans and I love the quality... The weight is what kills it for me.. I have put thought into an aftermarket lightweight stock for a hw90 but cannot find the specs for the barreled actions weight without the wood stock. Perhaps you could help me out? I'd make the change if I could keep the entire package under 6lbs (no sight). Thanks!

[@hunter100t]

Paintballinmike1 I have a couple of 90s and they are so accurate you wouldent believe, but to keep it under 6lbs is no good as the action on its own weighs around that with no woodwork ! and that has always been the complaint with HWs, but you gat used to it eventually, fit a sling and its all good again. I have a standard 90 and a theoben Tb 90 and to be honest you need the weight to absorb the recoil like on any springer but defo on a gas ram.

[@Paintballinmike1]

+hunter100t gotta love the Gamo then :) great balance and accurate enough for taking small game from the shoulder at 50 yards. My gear +3k pellets and my Gamo = 40 lbs and is 4 season ready. A 9 lb weihrauch puts me at 44 lbs and those extra 4 lbs land directly in my arms while I'm hiking / hunting. That makes any German rifle overrated in my opinion. 50 yards is almost to much range for sustainable brush hunting and a light rifle means I can shoulder fire it accurate when tired/wounded/hungry. You think wierauch would have picked up on the need for lighter rifles haha German quality at a 5-6lb price would corner the market regardless of monetary cost.

[@geoffreywilliams7705]

Two systems should be ; spring piston and pneumatic piston - simple . . .

[@CaliGoober]

Thank you. I appreciate the insight from different representatives of the air gun industry. I am a budget enthusiast with a collection of metal spring guns that cost me less than $150 each. I can now make an informed decision on purchasing my first gas spring gun.

[@EarthSurferUSA]

I am very impressed with the new "Gamo Magnum .22 cal. swarm Gen2". The barrel locks up perfectly, (no side to side or up and down movement), it makes 27fpe, it has a very cool 10 shot magazine that works very well, (could be improved a bit, but everything can be), it has a 3.5lb trigger that can easily be made a 2lb trigger with a slightly longer adjustment screw, (needed for the way I hold the gun), and if you hold your guns lightly, all you need to do is push it away from your shoulder and cheek before you pull the trigger, (which is why I need a light trigger. You are basically not touching the gun, and it moves easy with a harder trigger pull.), and this thing is a 80-100 yard gun. I have been practicing with the JSB18.13gr. pellet, (830fps), and sighted in at 35 yards, less than 2 mill dots needed for 100 yards, and a 80 yard head shot on a squirrel is no problem if steady enough. IMO, the gun is almost as good as many .22 PCP guns. At least I think I can out shoot some of them. My best break barrel to date. If you get it, ($300.00), and clean the barrel, make sure you clean the grime off the breech face, (can't see it with the mag system over it, so don't forget it like I did), or the grime will work around the o-ring sleeve and kill your accuracy. On yea, with my little Leupold 3-9x33 EFR freedom scope on the stock mount, the 6.88lb gun is just around 8 lbs I estimate. (I know the scope only weighs 12oz). I do use 2 hands to cock it, and you figure out the best leverage. Oh by the way, I also used the JSB 15.89gr. pellet, and found a good spent pellet in the soft snow. That gun blows up that skirt like a Balloon. 2mm long of rifling engagement at the end of the skirt. Great seal.

[@carsonwells1785]

Wow!!! Great job. My brain hurts. Luv and kisses and Merry Christmas to all. Carfunkle

[@andyjame9687]

Highly Recommended!!!

[@Happy-Me.]

I love my Webley Alecto which is a gas piston. Great gun!

[@injairgun]

I have watched this episode a few times now and I can't get over the fact of how awkward it got after Rick told Tom to hold up the other gas ram when mentioning being produced in China! I feel the same way as all 3 here, I was under the impression when I got into airguns about 10 years ago that the gas ram was the way to go. But since having purchased a Weihrauch HW97KT and recently the Walther Parrus, I think the higher end German guns cannot be beat by any gas ram gun! They are simply fantastic to shoot! On the gas ram side, I recently had my Benjy Trail NP All Weather's gas ram fail and it is only shooting at half the velocity it once was. I have a new gas ram to put in it, but if it happens again, I will be replacing it with a coil spring!

[@michaelgreer435]

Fantastic guys so on the mark . From UK shot a TX200 for 25 years now still one of the most reliable guns .

[@EarthSurferUSA]

How many shots/year?

[@keith1542]

nice presentation gentlemen. You have answered my questions precisely. I will stick with the spring version though, as I don't like grandma's back hatch falling on my head from a failed gas strut. That failure may mean I don't eat that night. Thank you so much.

[@noelduggan72]

Excellent argument about the gas struts being compressed for 99% of the time in the mini van for very long periods of time, and still functioning perfectly! A good consideration when choosing between spring Vs gas-ram, if you like to leave your gun cocked when you are out, with the safety on.

[@fredschnepel7772]

Very interesting and informative. Thanks

[@dhosekowski1391]

Great video. Thanks for helping me finally being able to choose a gas spring rifle. I was leery of the reliability until it was said that 99.9% of the time on mom’s minivan hatch they are compressed. I was like 🤔 oh yeah!

[@ivanhita4726]

You guys are awesome teachers thanks guys!

[@MyVenancia]

Awesome interview, I would stick with spring rifles cost effective, simple and they been around a long time.

[@theoprice721]

I did have a spring now got a gas ram and never going back because u can diesel the pellets, more power and gun does not lose power

[@teganwaring6053]

Spring airguns are the best, never mind the GAZ RAM period! IMHO

[@JoeZelensky]

You guys just perfectly explained why a pellet that is seated a little in the barrel is more accurate than one near the edge.

[@kennethrich2107]

LOVE that honorable mention- Beeman R9 ! Mine is 18 yrs old and still going strong !

[@yorkshireboy2685]

I really like this channel and have subscribed, quite often American shooting channels are very negative of us British because of our laws but these gentlemen are respectful and very knowledgeable. Respect to all, JC

[@EarthSurferUSA]

I don't think we mean to be mean to the people in the UK, unless they glorify the fact that a baby sitter government treats you like children, (by the way, I legally had a 20 gauge shotgun when I was 12 years old for small game hunting by myself or with friends. Nobody ever got hurt, Safety gun class to get a hunting license, and we used to have shooting teams in HS). I would like to see some rejection of any law that keeps you from defending your self. I think it is a horrid, scary law,---and I don't trust the dysfunctional baby sitters.

[@yorkshireboy2685]

@@EarthSurferUSA yes getting treated like children..... like getting arrested for jay walking? we can legally buy alcohol with a meal at 15, have sex at 16....... legally defending yourself? yeah, how did that go down for people in the USA during 2020?

[@hssportsinmichigan]

I just rediscovered air guns. I own firearms 14. But I have crosman 1377 spring awesome. Sheridan blue awesome and three airsoft. Two spring and co2 beretta. Wow.. also daisy co2..my whole family enjoys shooting outside no range. Your channel helps me...I am looking at older spring rifles...power isn't crazy important not a hunter just competition. Thank you. I am looking a pistol or rifle new spring

[@vrod1a]

Never had a problem with coil springs, easy to maintain and replace. Another important part is the seals, Cheaply made Seals fail before any metal part.

[@EarthSurferUSA]

Just buy a new cylinder. They are easier to maintain and replace, as long as you are maintaining and replacing. Gas pistons go flat, and springs sack out. Quality control is important for both. No two different companies produce the same quality of anything.

[@schwanzelstock1071]

Ah now you are talking about RWS :)) I wonder if it's better than Weihrauch I always liked Weihrauch and gas ram is off the table great! Thanks!

[@fabiobaires1869]

Great video Guys, lots of knowledge and experience. Congrats!!!!! Hope to see more videos from you, Thanks.

[@huklberybond]

Good discussion, two things I find that are the overriding factors. Gas springs eliminate twist torque and reduce reverb rebound vibration (essentially its not just a spring its also a shock absorber). The second, coil springs have that progressive cocking pressure where the gas spring is full on from the start. For me, gas spring in medium power guns or magnum hunting guns (shot 6 times a day). Coil springs for multi cocking sessions plinking or target, your shoulder will appreciate it.

[@howardjohnson9110]

I found this information very interesting. Thanks

[@williamhogg7830]

Im one of those people who bought a gas piston GAMO for me...it was junk! I took it out and replaced it with a spring. now I am a HAPPY airgunner!i

[@bradbell4055]

If you want a cheap gun that shoots more accurate then alot of the high-end break barrel s buy crosman or Benjamin even with crappy triggers they still out most other brands if you want a great gun buy the Beeman r9 .22 spring piston is the only way to go in the break barrel

[@eagleviewhd]

I bought a Benjamin Rogue NP2. It was one of the less expensive NP2 pellet guns sold by Crosman, but it had all the important components such as the NP2 gas spring and a SBD silencer. The stock was more basic and the scope was very basic also rudimentary. The trigger was terrible but was very easy to modify to a much better trigger with a different spring and some adjustments. I think it is a very nice gun for the money you have to invest.

[@theoprice721]

Gas ram are the best by a mile

[@newhuskytwenty]

+Theo Price Have you ever considered the rubber seal? Do you really think it will last those promised 10.000 shots as good (only the best) gas ram pistons are supposed to perform? I bet you will have to open the air rifle each two or three years to change the seal, so I stick with my trusted spring pistons. Everytime I open the rifle I change all together for less money and I have a new powerplant. Gas loss will be common in some years of experience and the present fame of the GR will disappear.

[@TheZombieburner]

+newhuskytwenty Likewise, but a metal spring, if that wears out? Easy to replace. A physical spring is more reliable to me, no worries about little leaks or gas loss. Hell, I can replace a metal spring myself with no real effort.

[@rahalwidanagamage]

I love these guys…

[@americanairgunner]

Classic episode

[@masonnnuff7994]

Ruger makes a gas piston made by umarex for umder 200$ called the impact max, i have one, its very accurate and its very powerful I highly recommend it

[@michaelwthalman]

There is a reason the high end the TX200 is a spring piston and not a air piston. I have numerous springers and air pistons and still find the air pistons more hold sensitive. The concept of the air piston is great. I had a Beeman Crow magnum (Theoben) and out of the box it shot close to 30fpe, but one had to be very exact on the hold to get fairly decent groups. Fortunately (manufacters take note) the air piston was adjustable, I do not remember how many bars it came pressurized from Beeman import, but it had to be maxed out. After reducing the pressure in the piston to shoot around 14-15fpe, it became accurate enough to get one's confidence and one could be a little off on the hold and still get nice grouping. Maybe if companies got off the more power is the best method and actually acknowledge the fact that power has negative side effects, the might actually attract buyers. I think there are plenty of folks that would love a air piston that came adjustable, like the H.E. pistons. And realize that a more stable shooting 14-16fpe can take groundhogs all day better then a 30fpe kicker that they don't have the confidence to shoot past 20 yards cause they can't shoot good groups. Yes, the trajectory is slightly worse, but mildots fix that problem. Until they do, if I see a woodchuck 60 yards away, Im grabbing my metal 15fpe springer and not my 28fpe airpiston.

[@charlesoutdoors2424]

I sure miss these.

[@cvcoco]

As a newbie I think they missed several questions. 1) what refinements can the industry make to either system to improve reliability and power? 2) what modifications can the user do to improve? 3) what are the limitations of either system that make them poor choices? 4) what is the coming thing or next leap in pellet propulsion? 4) do .177 or .22 as a choice effect which system youd choose? 5) about springs, springs "untwist" as they release power, so is torque a factor that decreases accuracy? 6) why is artillery hold something a new user has to learn first and therefore buy a coil spring gun? 7) You say quality is poor in a low-priced gun. Do users who buy a $100 rifle are those who dont know any better or are the guns actually OK? 8) If quality is poor in either system, should new users avoid the low market altogether and jump straight to a $500 or $1000 gun? 9) if quality is poor in a cheap gun, does it mean users will be replacing systems often or are there aftermarket upgrades they can do now that would allow them to use an otherwise cheap gun? Example, if a great gun is $700, can a user buy a $100 gun, then $200 in upgrade parts and have that great gun for $300 instead of $700?

[@Dirty-hands-clean-money]

I've been in the tool and die trade for the last 13 years we use alot of gas springs in automotive metal stamping dies and it does not bother them to stay compress and u can always get ahold of mizumi Dayton or other die component companys and u can match any gas spring and even up grade quility but u wanna keep the same gas pressure that came in ur gun but you can always match body size and stroke of gas spring to a new one. Edit there also call nitrogen cylinders or nitrogen springs there fill with non flammable nitrogen

[@americanairgunner]

Excellent information. Thank you for sharing this.

[@wisestudent1463]

I'm to old to muscle the barrel on a spring type.....I'm into bench shooting. I am a firm believer in you get what you pay for !!!

[@donaldseals7168]

Im With Rick Coiled Spring 24/7

[@Romin.777]

Educational! Thanks. As a 12 year old i owned a Benjamin CO2 i loved that thing but sold it. In the army an UZI wich i was a crack shot with. (1st class) Four years ago i bought a Crosman 2240 and recently i wanted a allround rifle (practise) and not spend too much and my choiche became a Webley Scott VMX D Ram in .22 a 20 footpounds and 800 fps. After some digging around on the tube and just seeing this video i can say i made a pretty good choice for a sub 200 dollar starter. It's basicly a Hatsan Striker made in turkey. And i find the building quality way better than my 2240. Just put the first 100 pellets through. And it feels solid. Gonna practice with open sights before moving up to a scope. :))

[@EarthSurferUSA]

I just thought of something the other day too. Sometimes your scope starts messing up, you lose accuracy/repeatability, but you are not sure if it is the scope or maybe something else, (like crappy pellets, or a dirty barrel). With out a bridged scope mount so you can see your open sights too, (which I have not seen for sale), you would have to remove the scope. Then, if you get good groups with open sights, it is probably the scope as the problem.

[@davidhollingdale3548]

Theoben were the inventors and first users of the gas rams . the idea came from motorcycle forks . the first of them were compressed air . inert gas came later .

[@ianmangham4570]

Yes, quality

[@terrybest8973]

you boys are right springers are the best all around every time you can even use a dirt bike spring in a springer gun like a honda 50 cc or honda 70 cc dirt bike it works great i have done it manny time if it is a 1000 fps when i get done with a dirt bike spring it will be 1500 fps gun just a fact boys

[@EarthSurferUSA]

If you are using a Honda dirt bike fork spring, I can pretty much promise you that it is a top quality spring. I am a quality engineer, (not in practice, got a degree), and I can tell you that Honda is arguably the best manufacture in the world. We learned scientific type quality methods from the Japanese. In fact, an American named Deming thought of SPC, "Statistical Process Control", and offered it to our auto companies, and they rejected it. He took it to Japan, and they used it, and used it properly. They developed other quality methods too, but that is when Japan became the quality king of the world, and still is IMO.

[@ianmangham4570]

Massive difference is NOISE, gas ram with suppressor blows away springer with suppressor

[@aldorini2099]

Great video guys!!! Just wish one day we can perfect a spring powerplant to have zero vibration, recoil, and twang just like a pcp or pneumatic. The only small recoil you would feel is the pellet leaving the gun. I've grown up owning Diana's back in the 70's and a series of European Beeman's and the vibration has always been an issue for me. My most favorite in all these years has been the Beeman R9 or R7.

[@Romans--bo7br]

Aldo Rini You like spending the extra dollars for the fancier stock, over the factory Weihrauch versions, huh? lol (compared to Doc. Beeman's versions). As far as only feeling a "small" recoil from the pellet, leaving the gun..... I'm afraid we'll all be waiting a Lonnng time for that one. : )

[@Gieszkanne]

+Aldo Rini The Walther LVG and LGU should have a very good spring action. Very silent without much vibration.

[@whataburgerchicken]

Quality springs don't 'take set' or 'sag' when they are under compression. What wear springs out is how many compression/decompression cycles they go through. What wears them out is the sort of 'micro fractures' that get twisted and untwisted each time the gun fires. The higher the quality metal the less of these fractures exist and the longer it will last. If you have a spring that wears out because it's compressed it's either over stressed or just poor quality.

[@Romans--bo7br]

nate-m nate-m TRUE !!!..... and In Hatsans case, it's most generally "Overstressed"..... and poor quality, in many others...... However, from my own experience... I know that when I Fully Polish & Color Buff my springs... whether, Turkish, Chinese or European.... I get a spring that is Much smoother & greatly longer lasting.

[@jcozad3215]

Here's our needs: No “slide-blow-back”; both semi + full auto; pistol or rifles=without stock/butt; detachable sights; picatinny for red dot laser; .22 caliber or larger with heavy grain pellets or BBs; for power not speed with easy loading, with no extra magazines and easy “field stripping”. Threaded barrel for real good suppressor is a must! We already have the “Steel Storm” on order. Looks and replicas mean nothing. It’s “hard-core” basics please. No pressure! If you or any of your channel readers can help, that would be great! T.I.A. Do they make a Nitro Piston Air Pistol or Rifle fully automatic? At 83, seven Vietnam Veteran We know NOTHING about air guns. HELP! We can use an empty 3 car garage as an indoor range. Training for inside self-defense between 7 to 21 yards, stationary and moving.

[@americanairgunner]

Yes, they make Nitro Piston Rifles. There are also Fully Auto airguns but not many and pricy.

[@jamesdewer]

Americans and guns. Something we are very serious about.

[@americanairgunner]

Yes we are! 🇺🇸

[@allenschmitz9644]

got a webley aclecto bought last year..but is that what your talking about..you can pump it up to 3 times..for diffrent power..im so in love with it..this pistol in 5.5 kicks ass even with some of my spring piston rifles/ new out of the box it was kicking 489fps..and you can adjust the gas ram to go higher fps...using a red dot pistol scope on it...boy dont kid yourself though..that thing is not easy after the 2nd pump...and no..cost..375.$...well worth it..best grips best trigger(adjustable)....so great for match shooting..this type gun is more for the pro-air gunner...add another 60$ for the scope^

[@allenschmitz9644]

+allen schmitz I ment..379$ with scope purchase.

[@JaleelJohanson62]

No... The Webley Aclecto is a multi-pump pneumatic power plant.

[@joserodolforamirez8773]

I like them both but I favor springers better.

[@joshwynn3285]

Just simple, coil spring no leak, gas piston will leak. That's it. I go for Spring, it's last over 10 years.

[@BayAreaWrecker]

Let's be honest ,gas piston all the way #gamogang

[@ianmangham4570]

Yes

[@PeakCasual]

I find gas ram pellet guns make a weird *thwack* sound. Overall very satisfied with my Nitro piston Benjamin Trail; probably the smoothest breakbarrel I've fired.

[@ianmangham4570]

Awesome rifle

[@mjohnson43136]

I really enjoyed this discussion. I l

[@tyronekim3506]

It's been about four years since this video was released. With a lot more air rifles made with gas piston, I wonder if they still prefer spring piston over gas piston.

[@americanairgunner]

Hmmm. You're right. I've added to the list of possible topics for our 2018 season. Thanks for the suggestion. ~JB, Exec Producer.

[@HugoMNF]

I love SMS by Rossi and Elite air guns, made in Brazil.

[@hamzasohail3099]

Believe me or not I'm gonna become an airgun expert in no time 😂😂😂

[@felgate11]

My 45 or so year old Webley Vulcan .22 Springer still shoots good as new - It's never been stripped or tuned, same spring - why fix what's not broken!! Had it from New.

[@Happy-Me.]

I cocked my air rifle and left it to bring the power down. It works to lessen the power. Whether or not the power will creep back up remains to be seen.

[@americanairgunner]

Let us know your findings.

[@jeremyhowell1053]

I have a Benjamin Prowler absolutely love the gun I had it for about 2 years. it goes just about everywhere I go in my truck and everything and I shoot it a lot. I do all the surface maintenance on it I clean the barrel and oil the moving part I don't have the setup to be able to take it completely apart to be able to clean the inside of the Piston cylinder. it doesn't seem to be lacking any power still shoots very good. but like I said I shoot it a lot and I'm certain the Piston seal has got we're on it and there is Gunk inside, there has to be. I've done a low-budget trigger modification to it to remove the two-stage trigger and I'm happy with it fairly smooth. And I love the gun we have got some history. Now I understand it's only about $100 gun I can replace it simply. So my question is would it be worth sending it to someone like you or someone skilled in rebuilding it and cleaning it for me

[@jeremyblackwater439]

I just bought a new .22 Prowler and I love it. Full barrel shroud now too. Got it for less than $100 at Midway

[@SuperChrismccall]

That was awsome

[@airwolf269]

Gas rams can be left cocked for months even years. How long do you leave your trunk closed or hatch back window closed before one day push the button or turn the key and it pops right open. Same gas ram in the cars is the same in the rifle if not better. Now they can fail just like the car and in my life time so far i only had one fail but the car was over 30 years old.

[@EarthSurferUSA]

I don't think the 2 different gas spring cylinders are a good comparison. The gun cylinder must have much more pressure in it, (up to 150 bar, not cocked) and the action is way more violent. They work on the same principals, but are made for two very different jobs.

[@Jakelol1980]

Great show but i feel like would actually be better without Rick and just Tom and Jim ❤

[@shayden5289]

I thought that the ReAxis piston in the Umarex rifles reversed the piston itself the other way around, in that it placed the heavier side of the piston in the back, and propelled the lighter end of the strut to get more velocity and pressure.

[@theguyokcolorado6367]

I call bull shit on Mom's mini van trunk struts I've seen here stayed closed and then you open it and it come to knock you out cold.

[@davidhollingdale3548]

Theoben invented the gas ram . they got the idea from a motorcycle front forks . at first they contained air . then later they went to gas . defunct now . good rifles , very good quality .

[@joserodolforamirez8773]

The cold weather argument is bologna gas struts go out in the cold weather believe me I know I have gas struts on my hatchback and they've gone out in the winter not in the summer

[@tyronekim3506]

I think the expert air gunner who said at 22:28? "If you can shoot spring piston well, you can shoot any gun well." have not shot a magnum center-fire rifle. A magnum center-fire rifle needs to be held firmly (no "artillery" hold) if you don't want the rifle to jump out of your hand after firing. Also, he praises the gas piston air gun for better shooting ability over spring piston but favors spring piston for beginners doesn't make much sense to me.

[@marymaynor3345]

The reason for holding a center fire rifle tight is to keep it from jumping up into your face and knocking your teeth out.

[@imnotimportant]

I disagree, a magnum CF on bipods with a good break will out shoot one held down with a death grip. and not just because its rested, but because the gun has free motion and you are not restricting your body. Find me a nice target 308+ that isn't on bipods with a good break. Even prone "no rest" competition shooters are not holding the rifle but just supporting it from the bottom. Having to hold down a wild child gun is the fault of the gun, not a necessity because of being a high caliber CF.

[@HondoTrailside]

This was a good discussion, but the final conclusion went against pretty much everything they covered, and needed a lot more explanation. I find the break barrel guns need to be discussed in terms of magnum guns, which are the main US market, and UK 12 ft/lb guns. I have been shooting since 72, and granted I owned a Feinwerbau 300s with recoil compensation, and it had that system for a reason, but the main guns I have owned were easy to shoot, and I never used an artillery hold. Those guns were magnum in their day, but they were around the 12 ft/lb range anyway. I think how much you are trying to crank out of a gun has a lot to do with it's shooting characteristics. I am surprised how many of the good euro guns have stayed with the spring. Ever since I got my theoben, I didn't want anything to do with coil spring guns, but some of the premier guns have coils in them. US vs UK hunting is quite different. Where I live lights are a no no, and we mostly walk up game. We may be able to shoot over a large area, and we aren't just in a farm yard shooting pidgeons. Our game tends to be larger. I think this affects the kind of guns that work best as for instance a spring may end up compressed over a long period. And the guns tend to be more powerful. For instance, I was looking at the AA Tx 200, which has a superb reputation, but some of the people who bought the FAC model in the US were not that pleased with it.

[@lmaoDDDDD]

the thing i dont get is why use a spring or pressurized gas to push a piston and the piston push air and the air push the pellet out, while pnuematic guns like pcp&single&multi pump simply use pressurized air to push the pellets out directly, and they are easier to shoot and have less recoil

[@IhateYoutube]

Real simple.. Cost and Complexity... For someone who wants to get "started" with a PCP they are going to spend say $500 for a decent PCP and a Hand Pump.. A Hand Pump is nothing but a pain in the rear.. So now you start looking at Carbon Fiber Scuba Tanks and High Pressure Air Compressors.. By the time you are done you spent 4+ grand.. I can pick up the Gas Ram and a tin of pellets and go out and shoot 100+ rounds with no "support" equipment.. And I've done just that! Sure by the end of the day my arms feel like gumby :)

[@jeffgoldstein8539]

I would recommend a single or multi pump pneumatic for a beginner. They are much easier to shoot accurately and they cost less than many springers.

[@Romans--bo7br]

Nutjob Joe Sounds "simply".... but, the truth is... they are infinitely More Complex in accomplishing that "simple" act.... than are, springers.. especially. The other "downside" fact is..... they are NOT "cheap" to own... with the Need, for "life support" from "bottles" and / or pumps (usually electric) which can add anywhere from $400. to well Over $2,500. Over & Above the initial cost of the pcp gun..... which can cost you anywhere from $399. to over $4000. !!!

[@Paintballinmike1]

I am an avid survivalist, my gas ram gun weighs under 5lbs and hits with 21fpe (at the muzzle) all I need to shoot it is pellets (which I have a great kit for making them as long as I have lead/zinc/tin/silver and other soft, wood fire meltable metals.). I can pop an egg at 50 yards from the shoulder consistently but I need no resivor, no pump or compressor, no power, no powder, no nothing. It's one of the quietest guns on the market and is damn near maintainence free. Pcps are extremely moisture sensitive, generally aren't very durable, usually louder (though a shrouded pcp is quietest hands down) and very cumbersome usually due to needing an air reservoir. There are of course exceptions to those rules, very well built pcps, but none are self contained systems (except the fx revolution, which is highly finicky. And not to mention comes with a host of problems). My air gun is extremely sustainable and it's a gas ram. Best option hands down.

[@Paintballinmike1]

Now I use a 3lb bow... But then I used a gamo bone collector bull whisper. In order to achieve that accuracy/power you need to shoot heavy Jsbs. Additionally the pellet making kit is called the nomad and you must get the pellet tolerances correct in order to see any kind of accuracy from those.

[@imnotimportant]

I'm a bit surprised the hunter went for a spring when pressed at the end. The question being an ALL AROUND intro gun, you have to go gas... mostly because of what they already said several times. Spring kept under tension for potentially hours, and the ability to shoot off of hard rest (leaning against tree, shooting sticks, blind, window for pest control, decking, etc) and hold accuracy. I feel if the question was just for plinking or target shooting then its coil spring all day long for the beginner.. but since "all around" and even "pest control" was mentioned in the final question for a beginner first airgun, you have to go for gas.

[@Aftab-pm5td]

I’m going to buy my first air rifle for target shooting, and I came across the Gamo IGT system. what I want to know is if this system is better the a coiled spring? What I’m looking for is a durable gun with consistent power, in the Gamo website they say the IGT provides consistent power and more accuracy but since I don’t believe what companies say about their products I would like to know what are your opinions.Thank you

[@danmeredith6354]

What do you think of HATSAN air rifles? (Made in Turkey, not China)

[@ianmangham4570]

Good

[@bl4ze600]

2021 anybody

[@ianmangham4570]

How the hell they didn't mention the difference in NOISE is beyond me.

[@hoangchungnguyen4648]

Xin hỏi IGT có những hư hỏng nào phải thay thế. Bao lâu phải thay thế nó. RẤT mong được phản hồi

[@chrismanning217]

Im a new owner of a Walther Terrus. Luv it plan on using it till I cant cock it anymore. Springer

[@americanairgunner]

Walther Airguns are not as popular, but fantastic shooters. Those that own them love them.

[@davidhollingdale3548]

Not one mention of theoben . who invented the modern gas ram . the reason gas ram is now more popular is because the patent ran out from theoben . come on tell it like it is . not how you would like it to be .

[@peteralexben]

a hw 90 is stamped with theoben in the barrel blok.

[@nevadie133]

9:17

[@MrViegar0]

bsa did a 2 shot reapeter in the uk and gamo make 1 now

[@adew4u2enjoy]

I had springers forever. All still work. Bought my first gas gun and it lasted a year. I don't know a door that uses those gas pistons that didn't wear out. I may rip the gas piston out of my broke gun and retro fit a spring in it.

[@EarthSurferUSA]

5-year warranty on the 27fpe Gamo .22 magnum swarm gen2 gun, (and it is a 100 yard gun if you only touch the trigger,--lol). They must have not used a screen door damper. After 5 years, I don't know what a new charged cylinder costs, but I bet it is under $50.00 for a $300.00 gun. The only thing I would worry about a bit may be availability after having the gun for a decade or two. We never know what is going to happen to free market business now a days, (anybody want to buy a restaurant now?, anybody?), but you should always be able to find a coil spring. But on that flip side, I can make a gas ram cylinder, (small machine shop), but I can't make a spring. :)

[@ivanhita4726]

Lol 20:50 should that been cut off the video lol the guy with the comb over got offended "awkward silence"

[@airgunningyup]

wow , just fast forwarded, awkward as hell

[@ivanhita4726]

right lol a little funny though

[@yousuf9542]

ivan hita hahahah

[@cdavidlake2]

ivan hita Yeah what was that all about? The drama went right over my head.

[@fookutube501]

It was awkward from the start,@ 3:11 .Its kinda funny,Rick wants to stay in the past ,while the Tom"his last name crack me up"wants to more on..

[@Smaug1]

I like how the pretty boy host keeps them on target. Had to ask the one character at least three times to just answer the question without a lot of qualifications, hehehe. I do a lot of airgun shooting, for almost 10 years now. But I learn something new from Tom Gaylord every time I read his blog.

[@MrChris-bx7ss]

*_Stop eyeballing the pretty boy pls._*

[@maxbaxtraxgaming5378]

What im wondering is if you guys can talk about a hpa pellet gun set up?

[@williamhogg7830]

Tom , I was one of those who bought a gas ram (gamo) and put the original spring back in the gun. Buying that gun with a gas ram is the worst thing I have ever done. From now on it will be a true SPRINGER for me.

[@nickcol8767]

Friend of mine dry fired my hatsan 135 when i wasn't looking. That was the end of that. Still haven't ordered a new piston for that rifle

[@chrisdegeorge3803]

Nick Col the gun was completely broken from that?

[@nickcol8767]

@@chrisdegeorge3803 yea

[@EarthSurferUSA]

I had the 135 .30 cal. I made the mistake of using some chamber lube in the compression chamber, (and probably put too much in to, it was hard to see), and it sounded like a 30-30 rifle when i fired it, (which I would have crony-ed that shot. I bet it was over 1000fps). Well, I know some of that chamber lube made it past the piston seal, as it puffed in my eye through the safety switch for the next 50 or 100 shots, ( I could feel it in my eye, but not see it), and then I lost about 3fpe. I could not get a new piston seal from them. For one, I could not get them on the phone, and #2, through e-mail, they demanded I put my credit card number through my computer, (and I will not do that), as the only way to buy parts from them. I gave the gun away, never to buy hatsan again. I liked shooting the gun, but I had some pretty bad quality issues too. There is also a chance, since Turkey is an islamic nation, that we actually helped fund islamic terrorism by feeding them a profit. it is not the fist time ideologies like communism use the free market to fund them selves. China/Communism has been doing it for over 40 years, stealing our free market form us.

[@YA-ee9zf]

Disagree from personal experience and others who have the same experience springs last longer I still have guns from the 70s

[@EarthSurferUSA]

Back as kids, I bought a used straight 6 cylinder engine for my car. The guy told me it did not burn oil, and it did not for him. He didn't run it. A gas spring can go flat, and a coil spring will sack out if used, but the quality control is important for both. But if you don't use them for 50 years, (or maybe just over 10), and I pretty sure the coil spring will still be perfect, and the gas spring will be flat. Springs have a great shelf life if not compressed. Rubber seals, no so much, (guessing a decade for a good design). It will be interesting to me to see how long the cylinder stays pressurized in my guns. I am only 3 years in so far with them. :) Where I disagree, (with Jim and Tom), is gas spring not breaking scopes. I have several busted scopes, but the guns are both over 27fpe, and this vid was made 8 years ago now. I really like my last buy, the gamo .22 mag gen2 swarm. It is really a pretty nice 100 yard gun, if your basically not touching the gun, lol, (blows hatsan quality out of the water).

[@donwilson350]

you know you guys had a really good video but why would you have a gas RAM piston video if all you want to sell is spring guns if a gas RAM is easier to shoot not as hold sensitive and a beginner could shoot it better why wouldn't you want the person that have the best experience with an air gun so they would buy more if you can because if the spring piston gun was better why did they make a gas RAM everything I read the gas RAM is more efficient can B cocked 4 hours on end you won't get any spring fatigue it's just a better system

[@marvinlyman1312]

air guns for dummies this is informative for the beginners thanks

[@derektodd4126]

Gas ram is a great item if manufactured to UK standards.

[@ianmangham4570]

Yes

[@dAMNIOWAN]

Bipod on gas Spring airgun( gas ram) is workable in terms of accuracy ?

[@jeremyblackwater439]

Yes

[@danieldesimonedanny1827]

I'm a retired auto,Diesel tech and I don't trust Chinese gas pistons.

[@marcnissen578]

The hatsan 130qe and it’s a gas ram 30 caliber that’s considered oh bore

[@americanairgunner]

Not a big bore. But a larger caliber.

[@paparitz1]

I am a poor, free range chicken raising farmer that is looking for a "varmint" .25 cal. break action pellet rifle. So far, I'm leaning toward a Hatsan . 25 cal. springer My question is ; which one should I buy for reliability, accuracy & put down punch ?

[@americanairgunner]

+Papa Ritz there are a variety of options to choose from. First determine your monetary limit. The "Narrow Your Search" options on this page are handy to use: www.pyramydair.com/a/Air_guns/Air_rifles/150/calibers_0_25/cat_152?orderBy=price_asc

[@romanmax8561]

The 125 is a good gun

[@pericodelospalotes5738]

+Papa Ritz Cometa Fenix 400

[@lordmcted]

+Papa Ritz I've had a cometa fenix 400, it's heavy, awkward and LONG, if you put a suppressor on it it's way too long- my own personal advice, if it were my own money, I would get a second hand webley patriot- may as well have a nicer rifle if you're going to carry all that weight anyway- but for regular carrying I'd seriously consider the Gamo Shadow 1000- it's light, cheap, and unless you're hunting stuff larger than rabbits it should be fine. Hope that helped.

[@pericodelospalotes5738]

lordmcted I also have a Gamo Hunter 440, love classic models because modern Gamos are very bad, specially avoid the IGT (gas ram) versions. The Hunter 440 is incredibly light and short but the accuracy of the Cometa Fenix 400 is better.