Accident Case Study: Unintended Consequences

Correction: This video uses the term "upwind leg" when describing the flight path flown after takeoff. The correct term is "departure leg".
Link to certificate and ASI Transcript: bit.ly/ACSUnin...
Repetition can increase complacency. Performing the same tasks in the same way may lead us to overlook things we take for granted, potentially ending in disaster. In this accident case study, we'll look at why a twin-engine airplane impacted a mountain at night on what should have been a routine flight.

[@KarenPerry022402]

I am a CFII/MEI and the mother of the 3 young children who perished in this crash. Thank you so much for making this video and I hope that this situation never befalls another pilot.

[@xeldinn86]

Wow, im sorry about your loss

[@davesirota1806]

Karen, My most sincere condolences.

[@1dgram]

I'm very saddened to hear of your loss. I hope that the attempts to improve awareness of the issue, the changes of procedure, and improved technology in the cockpit will help eliminate this type of accident.

[@kevintubeit]

My sympathies for your loss. God bless you.

[@johnnyllooddte3415]

so so very sorry...doc johnny...blessings dear... sicily

[@AllieMetcalfgoogle]

I’m an ATP pilot as well as Years of ATC. Please understand this point (I’ve rarely met a pilot that did); simple flight following with ATC results in the radar system “inhibiting” low altitude alerts, automatically. If you are flying VFR at night - when you need these alerts - you must ask the controller. Just say something like “request altitude alerts”, or “request terrain alerts”. The controller will then un-inhibit your code and just may save your life. Spread the word.

[@N6941G]

Holy hell I had no idea about that. Thanks for sharing!

[@JustinJackson11]

@@rykehuss3435 😬

[@andyharpist2938]

@@rykehuss3435 It is a serious question but one that has so many social connotations that it just cannot be asked any longer. I am amazed that my wife knows where my keys and wallet are at any given time. She can remember a to-do list without thinking, but stops at a roundabout to see if anything is coming. I can glance at the clouds to ascertain which way the wind is blowing.... in half a second I know with certainty. And can remember a map as one glance, whilst she has to turn it facing where we are going to study with much growling and scowling.

[@pascalcoole2725]

I stopped flying after only for once i found that i did not anymore meet a basic but to me very basic requirement that i could not meet anymore. This requirement was: "If you financialy can't afford to fly, don't" Only shear luck prevented me from taking off after someone else (who rented the airplane) didn't do a walk around properly.

[@ThatSB]

@@andyharpist2938 You say it has stereotypes attached and then list some anecdotal evidence for some

[@timheritage3439]

I’m a private pilot . I have hiked to the crash site and witness your memorial and seen the photos of your beautiful children. I am so sorry for your loss.

[@tommypetraglia4688]

Her ex was under strict orders to never fly the kids. He was bringing them back to custody after a visit and was flying them w/o her knowledge or permission. The most painful to see is when Karen celebrates their birthdays marking the ages they would have been. A mother's love has no limits. With Karen truer words have not been spoken

[@KarenPerry022402]

@@tommypetraglia4688 that is not true, you are thinking of the accident with the two daughters who was being piloted by a private pilot going to Telluride. I knew my kids were flying that night and they and (he) had permission.

[@427SuperSnake1]

I learned to fly out of DVT in Phoenix.. I was always very cautious when flying at night around the Phoenix area. My instructors always taught me to be very careful about simply pushing the direct button on the GPS at night. As the GPS will fly you into a mountain without a second guess.

[@pummyy]

That's silly....why doesn't the GPS have terrain awarness. Pretty sure its not a big deal to incorporate terrain awarness into GPS. will save heaps of life.

[@jomomma8754]

I think the biggest thing to be taken away from this is know the highest obstacle within a large scope of your planned flight path if you plan on flying at night.

[@callbackdons]

Great point.

[@goldrushpro]

Yes, AND, never put the commands of any perceived "authority" figure ahead of your own!

[@stuarthaxton1631]

Put this on your Night VFR Checklist! --highest obstacle

[@donsremodeling]

Non pilot here, why not set your flight path at 4950 just under the 5000 ceiling but above the mountains? This tragic accident seemed to by avoidable.

[@davemojarra2666]

And stay above it, or fly around it.

[@russelldavidoakley2802]

I have always read accident reports and now I am so pleased to see them on you tube as without doubt they save many lives. To be constantly reminded how the slightest detail can end in disaster is so valuable, even though they are so sad.

[@gregflury3919]

Karen Perry..I am so sorry...my condolences. I am a student pilot and very much learn A LOT from these videos.

[@Danbertex]

I sympathize with Ms. Perry's loss. As a learning vehicle, the thing that jumps out at me is the importance of pre-flight planning. Knowing where the terrain hazards are on the sectional. Even when I fly IFR I look at the sectional for the entire leg of flight . Reviewing the sectional would show where the high terrain is in relation to where I am or am headed. I wonder about my complacency at times with a GPS receiver. When all we had was a map and compass, we had to know where the high terrain was and if we were headed in that direction. We can learn so much from this, I'm just so sorry for the loss of lives to reinforce it.

[@JohnMoore-xf5wy]

I retired about the time GPS was becoming widely available. I flew mountainous terrain worldwide, and quite a bit in the Andes. Always learn your route prior to departure. We often went into Cali and Bogota, Colombia,La Paz, Bolivia and Santiago, Chile. With NDB, VHF, and Omega. I'd love to try it with GPS.

[@rossilake218]

Karen, Sorry for your terrible loss. I shed more than a few tears for your little angels. They are gone because of Stupid decisions by experienced pilots. I’m a non-ticketed 80 hr pilot. Quit after 911. I have about 10,000 hrs of hangar flying and have flown around Chicago at night. One would have to be blind to hit our buildings on a clear night. All people make bad decisions, but pilots pay a bigger price upon impact. I’m going to buy your book.

[@docmirror8009]

About three years ago, I flew out of FFZ enroute to El Paso, and points east. Upon clearing FFZ controlled space, I turned and climbed to 4500, and called PHX departure for VFR FF. It was denied. I listened on the freq for about 20 min and the traffic was not busy at all. I also heard at least three different ATC ops on the freq and wondered why they had three live people on PHX dep/arr freq, with minimal traffic, and no VFR FF? Later I learned that PHX has decided unilaterally not to provide VFR FF no matter the 'traffic density permitted'. They just say no. Sad that so many had to die in part because of the bureaucratic in-your-face attitude.

[@FisherZ25]

That sounds reportable to someone at least... (coming from a non PPL guy btw) they just holding the airspace for ransom 😂😠

[@robertdancho9671]

Unconscionable on the part of the FAA and/or phoenix tracon

[@ThatSB]

Sounds like a liabilty issue. If the pilot in the video used it, ATC would have been in hot water

[@ThatSB]

@@FisherZ25 that isnt holding airspace for randsom ... they dont request money and you can fly where you want

[@chuckschillingvideos]

@@ThatSB Well...try entering Class B airspace and see if you really can "fly where you want"

[@steveevans4093]

Hindsight is sure 20/20. How many times have situations brought us that close but for some reason we lucked out (and maybe didn't even know it!) Never let down your guard. Well made video.

[@Eliot451]

I've been flying for many years and during that time I've done some pretty stupid stuff that I'm not proud of. But I've never done anything stupid with a child seated in the back.

[@DidivsIvlianvs]

The deceased are: Pilot, Russel Hardy, 31, Joseph Hardwick, 22, Shawn Perry, 39 and Perry's three kids, Morgan, 9, Logan, 8, and Luke, 6. Perry and Hardy worked for Ponderosa Aviation of Safford. The children were survived by their mother, Karen Perry.

[@mikea6977]

As a 135 pilot I've always had trouble with ATC at PHX....and always worked around them to avoid conflict.seems they NEVER had the big picture for arrivals/ departures.suprised I never was violated. At nite, they're slackers; so you do what you need to do...and assert yourself.i don't think they ever caught on with me....and I'm a CFII/MEI

[@stephenembrey883]

I took off out of Austin Texas one night in route to Midland Texas, the controller said right turn on course as soon as speed and altitude permit, so I did, and luckily landing and taxi lights still on, I almost hit high tension powerlines just west of the airport. When you have 1000 other things on your mind it is very easy to overlook the most basic subtle things.

[@alansimpson596]

Sad ending to what should have been a beautiful flight but an excellent video.

[@MyTube4Utoo]

Heartbreaking. I remember doing my first solo cross countries, and the first thing I'd look at on a sectional would be the highest obstacles/terrain I could possibly get anywhere near on my flight path. A sheer mountain cliff at the end of the runway should have drawn a bit of attention.

[@maxtanicfilmsdiy]

A tremendous point made here was about EXPERIENCED pilots getting into trouble. If we let our gaurd down flying airplanes the consequences will eventually lead to an incident or accident. As we gain hours and years in the cockpit remaining diligent is flat out mandatory. If you fly or have been around aviation long enough we unfortunately end up knowing pilots who have had fatal accidents due to complacency and over confidence. Thanks so much for sharing as these videos make a difference.

[@KarenPerry022402]

Experience is a relative term. I agree completely that this is the type of accident that you would expect with someone who has very little experience. Yet the pilot flying was an ATP, had roughly 2000 hours TT, and was carded by the US Forest Service. Certainly enough experience to know better. Yet in the big scheme of things 2000 hours TT is merely a drop in the bucket.

[@joynermark]

These are an amazing learning tool and very well made..

[@rgbosche]

Thank you AOPA and ASI for another fantastic safety video. Your efforts save lives!

[@joepilot1280]

ATC reluctance to handle small GA traffic inClass B airspace is not uncommon especially in Las Vegas. On many occasions while operating out of VGT requesting Flight Following was denied and since the Class B airspace extends in the dirt, I would have turn around and go back to VGT or circle and wait. There have been similar GA accidents in the LAS Class B airspace at night. ATC is not friendly to small GA aircraft in LAS Class B airspace.

[@southjerseysound7340]

I was shocked when I flew there,I get treated a thousand times better at EWR and JFK where there's 1000 times the commercial traffic and the most congested airspace in the world.

[@MrXtachx]

@@southjerseysound7340 San Diego and LAX area ATCs almost always clear small GA aircraft through the bravo and those are much bigger and more complex airspaces!

[@southjerseysound7340]

@@MrXtachx maybe it was a bad day but I'm not in a hurry to go back anytime soon 😆

[@scottoakley3206]

The personnel staffing LAS are true pricks with no regard for safety. I have flown in and out of there countless times and it seems their Bravo is sacred air no matter the weather-wind-turbulence.

[@flyingguyy]

Many of these case studies I can spot multiple different things that I already do to prevent the accident. This particular one really hits home because what that pilot did doesn't fall outside of the lines of something I could do. I do fly one flight often that if I had to extend my upwind as little as a half mile, a direct to course would send me straight into a mountain just like this. It is saddening that a group of people had to die to demonstrate the reality of this, but this case study was well put together and will hopefully save more than the accident took.

[@kevinmoore4887]

Andrew Roberts a

[@dryan8377]

Well, it was 2011, things weren't so 2016 back then. Technology moves fast.

[@sarahwatson7692]

My instructor once had ATC give him a heading that would have caused him to fly into a nearby mountain in about one minute. This was at night under IFR conditions. When he refused the new heading ATC began arguing with him that he must fly that heading for “spacing”. Instead of arguing he declared an emergency. Amazingly the need for “spacing” evaporated and he was immediately cleared for the approach! Nothing further was ever said. He had many such dangerous instructions from ATC over his career. ATC told him their job was to separate aircraft from each other not aircraft from terrain.

[@Bartonovich52]

A minute is a bloody eternity in an aircraft. Two miles or more.

[@KarenPerry022402]

ATC has the responsibility to notify the pilot if they observe an unsafe situation. It doesnt matter if they are handling the aircraft or not.

[@flagmichael]

I used to hear that a lot from private pilots who flew in and out of Las Vegas.

[@kewkabe]

Are you certain it was an IFR flight plan? I'm a controller and we're absolutely taught that for IFR aircraft, terrain separation is as important as traffic separation, we're well aware of the MVA (minimum vectoring altitudes), and in mountainous terrain we're constantly pulling up the MVA overlays especially when aircraft are close to mountains. I can't believe any controller would say that for an aircraft under IFR. I'm guessing he was actually on a VFR flight plan in which case yes, the pilot is responsible for terrain, obstacle and cloud clearance (not ATC).

[@drjimjam1112]

Thank you for that post Sarah. You taught me quite a bit.

[@Vincentvuoto]

These case study videos are very informative and will certainly help improve aviation safety and the awareness of the risk factors involved in these crashes. Keep em coming. Thanks.

[@jareddahlseid551]

I was not aware of this accident the before hiking the Flat Iron Trail a couple years ago but there is a plaque of the 3 children on a boulder as well as a pile of collected debris just below the crash site that will make your eyes tear up. The plane impacted two twin spires that are about 100 feet above the hiking trail as you crest the ravine and it appears had they flown 50 feet left, right or above them all would have been fine. On our way back down the mountain we scrambled over to a neighboring ravine were my friend knew of another crash site of a student pilot from the 1960s that hit a very large cliff face and the wreckage is still visible from above. An extremely beautiful yet unforgiving environment as well as the trail is quite strenuous for the unconditioned hiker. Good luck out there!

[@pirate3599]

This was a very sad but avoidable accident.I was always taught during my 767 upgrade training that I must be TERRAIN SAFE anywhere on the planet.Terrain awareness became second nature and always my first focus during every stage of every flight NO EXCEPTIONS.......and always have a healthy suspicion of ATC altitude instructions....

[@JohnMoore-xf5wy]

Correct! Pilots fly airplanes. Controllers watch scopes.

[@JohnMoore-xf5wy]

My reply disappeared INSTANTLY! Again. Pilots fly airplanes. Controllers watch scopes!

[@davidmalone9022]

My addition here would be that anytime I'm around a Class B, I file IFR - it just makes things so much easier and safer. There have been times it's been inconvenient: a flight from Ogden, UT south (with the SLC Class B in the way) when the controller asked me to climb to 12,000' out of the lake; another time when the controller took me about 50 miles north of Ocean City, Maryland to keep me out of the DC Class B. Both were inconvenient, but both were easy and safe. Easy to second guess, but my heartfelt sympathy to you and your family, Karen Perry.

[@rrh2918]

This is definitely a lesson for me.God bless the souls on board.

[@unggrabb]

Excellent study. Being offguard, not trying to anticpiate issues causes many accidents. Answer the question, "why should this work", rather than stating that "it will work".

[@Kaimine08]

Wow, looking at that class Bravo airspace relative to the mountain, that's some real BS. I mean, hell, crashing into that mountain is a mistake I would make. The airspace is practically level with the mountain and god forbid what would happen to you if you flew even a smidge into that class Bravo. That needs to be either changed or some sort of easy to spot warning or hell, even a circle with a warning in it that needs to be put in all maps to show the danger of that mountain. That is a very high mountain for that particular shelf. And come on dude...a VFR flight following from LAX? Yeahhh, I don't see that happening. You can usually just forget ever getting that sort of assistance when it comes to VFR and Bravo.

[@michaeldose2041]

Kaimine My thoughts exactly, creating a safety hazard.

[@Kaimine08]

@Jan Forbes It looked like this guy was doing his best to avoid the Bravo Shelf though, doing this at night, he most likely didn't see the mountain infront of him and with how close that Bravo was to that raised area, there was very little room for error. I always tend to go a mile outside of a class airspace just to ensure I'm clear of the Charlie/Delta before climbing and that would have gotten me killed in this scenario. As for what you said, I agree, if I'm going on a large cross country trip, I'm going high just because there's more options higher than lower.

[@ThatSB]

@Jan Forbes Of course you fly over mountains. You needed training for that? As for 7000, not if it is class bravo you wont.

[@adamaltawila2]

Thanks for DFW ATC, they always give you what you want and they will help u no matter what. Love DFW ACT.

[@Cory_Springer]

I fly into AZA about once a year, usually night landings. I'm always amazed how those superstitious mountains can hide so well.

[@gman2013]

I was stunned to read your post while watching this! I can’t begin to imagine the pain you have suffered, my condolences to you and maybe this will save lives in the future!

[@StanBarankiewicz]

Love these, and the graphics in this one are outstanding! Can't believe I didn't see this one earlier.

[@Synthetic-Rabbit]

I've honestly NEVER been on an airplane but I really enjoy these videos... I've always been a bit scared of them so that's that and I know there's not much risk in the big commercial planes and stuff but I still get a little uneasy watching and hearing this stuff.

[@rdbjrseattle]

This sounds like the Carole Lombard incident. Pilot flew a course that was intended for his usual route from his home field Las Vegas to LA but unfortunately this particular flight. was from a different airport that put him on a path directly into Mount Charleston.

[@bisbeejim]

I have flown in this area for many years, night, day, sunrise, sunset, full moon, no moon, IFR, and VFR. Everything checks out, I have experience with this route and go for the flight. So, I get in the air and something isn't quite right. I check and recheck and can find nothing wrong. It's not what happened next I wish to tell, it's what happened after I landed nervously wondering if I should keep flying or give it up. In a car we are taught to look out for the other driver, but in aircraft we seldom think of flying defensively against that which is unseen. Things happen pretty darn fast in an aircraft and sometimes the pilot is just too far behind the moment to make a life-saving correction. So, speaks the voice of the experienced.

[@paulgooding803]

I grew up there, and spent most of my flying career operating in and out of Phoenix. I went to school at a location where we looked directly into that West face of the Superstition Mountains every day, it was part of the landscape and even the culture. When I flew around there, I always had a map in my head of where the mountains were and what their peak elevations were, and I was never in any danger of making this kind of mistake. But that is an odd thing about me ... the average person, or pilot, doesn't have that sixth sense about the mountains around that part of Arizona and is not going to think or act in the way that I would. The fact is that it's a location that presents risks and dangers to aviation that are unique to the region and cannot be taken for granted. Desert flying is unique. Mountain flying presents unique challenges. One operates airplanes in these environments at one's peril if not familiar with the challenges and the best responses to them. This god-awful thing is what can happen if those risks are not understood, and mitigated. This is true of all kinds of topography ... you have to know the land, in order to safely operate in the air above it You take things for granted at your own considerable risk.

[@robertgift]

Excellent video! A good lesson for all. Happened so easily. Just a small variation from the previousuccessful flight.

[@jbsack]

Karen. My heart goes out to you. So sorry for your loss. One issue I have not heard spoken about. I too, am a CFII and MEII. I can't tell you how many JET TYPE RATING students I have had that consistently just press the DTO button on a gps. Instead of flying a planned course, they will not correct for drift and eventually just keep resetting the dto magenta line. This is akin to flying an NDB without appropriate wind correction and hence, flying a "circular path" to the waypoint/destination. While we may never know for sure, it seems likely given the outcome that the pilot flying did just that when ATC held off the initial turn. Had they instead, re intercepted the original planned track, they would have missed the mountain. May be an extreme example, but shows what can happen when one never learns to fly the CDI and instead flys the magenta line, while continuously resetting that line instead of learning how to fly properly. Again, my deepest sympathy

[@KarenPerry022402]

Thank you Jeffrey.

[@drchoclate]

Sorry for your losses. Deepest condolences to you

[@dahwheelone6620]

Great learning video - I wonder if Phoenix ATC will watch it and be more likely to grant VFR flight following.

[@Straswa]

Great vid ASI. Thanks for the informative videos.

[@kyleloring3020]

I was living in Phoenix when this happened .it was sad right before thanksgiving

[@LincolnLagger]

Production is so good...make more of these!

[@AviationNut]

I love these accident case study episodes because i can learn a lot from them, on what not to do. To bad there is no new episodes.

[@tinkmarshino]

God knows we all fall into the complacency mode from time to time... we need to keep our critical thinking skills top notch.. in very situation..especially when other lives depend on us doing our job safely.... Sorry for your loss Karen..

[@Filmpilot]

When in doubt, file IFR and pay attention the the MOCA on the low level IFR charts, published arrivals and departures. I’m sorry about your loss.

[@Hedgeflexlfz]

VFR elevation figures too

[@erikwagner6606]

I never expected to see a reply from the mother. I am so sorry for your terrible loss. I remember this accident. A major contributor seems to be ATC known reluctance to provide VFR radar service in the area.

[@eugeneh6055]

The moment I saw the Bravo overhang I knew what went on. The fact that it was anticipated by AOPA but their concerns were dismissed makes what happened even more upsetting. The fact that the assholes in charge still havent lifted the floor makes me angry. And yes I do believe its for not acknowledging liability. The fact that a shift change means nobody is watching is something I did not know existed. I only hope, that procedure was changed because that too was a critical part of this accident's chain of events.

[@gbigsangle3044]

This is not about complacency, terrain awareness avionics or the deviation in departure. It's about this airport is under Bravo shelves and this guy needed a Bravo clearance and a departure altitude that would clear these mountains. Anyone flying out of this airport needs to requrest a Bravo clearance when departing NorthEast. It should be part of a SOP for that airport.

[@jimnew5813]

Good point.

[@sea0fgreen33]

It says in the video that the place is infamous for not granting Bravo clearance for vfr flights.

[@southjerseysound7340]

Politics keep them from granting it,it's disgusting .

[@RADIOACTIVEBUNY]

@@sea0fgreen33 Well some people have earned a bullet for that by now.

[@sarahwatson7692]

What you need is altitude high enough to stay clear of the terrain. Screw the “clearance”. Certainly pilots who fly in that area know how high the mountains are. Why would anyone fly at an altitude certain to lead to a crash?

[@jimnew5813]

This was a terrible tragedy, my prayers go out to you Ms. Perry. It seems like a simple thing to prevent this type of accident in that location. I believe much of the blame for this lies with the FAA for the lowering of the Class B floor from 8000 to 5000 and the refusal to raise it. Also with the controller who was aware of the terrain and extended the upwind anyway without warning. I understand it is always the responsibility of the pilot to be aware of all the things that affect ones flight, but it is a complicated environment and a little help is always appreciated. I own a 46 J3 Cub, and only fly in daylight and in Florida. However I carry a tablet with GPS and terrain warning, we do have some very tall towers in the area I fly. My tablet cost about $130 and the GPS subscription is $60 a year. The GPS makes it so much easier to fly however nothing replaces old situational awareness, and the good old sectional chart.

[@johnemerson1363]

Mr. New: In Alabama, about 20 to 30 miles south of Montgomery is a 2000 ft radio tower. That monster is well lit, but the guy wires on it go out some distance to the side . I don't know how many wires it has, but I don't even get within five miles of its location unless I am at at least 3000 feet.

[@donraptor6156]

I Prayers? SMH! Send CASH!

[@joshuabrown1084]

great video! thanks again for helping pilots realize the dangers we can fly ourself into

[@dbwmetalsrecycling6373]

I fly into PHX quite a bit and always get turned down for Class B service when VFR.Even when I fly IFR, they usually assign altitudes that are outside the class B airspace.Not very friendly to GA aircraft.Most likely the pilot knew this and was avoiding the class B airspace.And nothing has changed since.Still one of my least liked places to fly to, second to las vegas.The AOPA needs to make them realize GA is important to keep safe too.

[@mytech6779]

The pilot can't completely ignore ATC but a pilot always has final say in safe operation and can respond with "unable" followed by the actual vector that will be taken even if it means entering class B. If this becomes frequent in an area due to something like a mountain it may start to sink in. Of course you may be contacted later and asked to provide the reason you were unable to comply, so don't go abusing the system. Clearance from terrain due to aircraft climb rate or marginal VMC are perfectly acceptable reasons.

[@nonmihiseddeo4181]

Yet their motto is "The Friendliest Airport in the World."

[@c5ec5e]

I know this is 4 years later, but what makes Las Vegas the worst? I'm planning a flight through there in the future and would like to know what to expect! Do they also routinely deny FF and transit through the bravo?

[@WestAirAviation]

Las Vegas has been my favorite Bravo to fly in. I regularly get all sorts of neat vectors over LAS or the strip or "cleared through bravo, continue at pilots discretion." PHX is by far the worst I've ever flown in for GA aircraft, so you hit the nail on the head with that on.

[@c.johngraham4251]

In 1971, a USAF student pilot flying a T-38 from then-Williams AFB flew into the Superstitions as a result of the tower controller giving him a vector and not following up in time. This was just before I started pilot training at Williams and was rather unsettling. Don't assume that controllers always have your back.

[@chuckschillingvideos]

The only one you can count on to "have your back" is you. ATC don't have the luxury of monitoring each and every flight from rotation to landing and once the aircraft is in the air and on its way, you can't realistically expect them to be your guardian angel.

[@HEDGE1011]

C. John Graham I went to Willie as well (88-03) and that story was still related to us. We were told it was during a night solo but I never saw an official report.

[@johnemerson1363]

Dean Martin's son was California ANG flying an F4 Phantom out of March AFB was vectored toward the San Gabriel Mountains for spacing toward landing. They forgot to turn him in a timely manner. Mr. Martin never really recovered from the loss.

[@KarenPerry022402]

One more thing... someone asked on here if I had knowledge that the aircraft was not airworthy..... It is a fair question and no I had no idea of that fact beforehand. My kids were with their father who was an airline pilot, the Dir. of Ops and an IA (Airframe Inspector). Ponderosa Aviation had such a good reputation that the feds left them alone for the most part. My children's grandfather started this company in 1974 and operated it until 2002 when he retired. They had a stellar record, not a single incident or accident in all of those years. In 2010, the new owners hired his son (my children's father) to help them with running the company. I had no reason to believe that my children were ever in danger and I assure you that I never would have put them in harms way. Why their father chose to go ahead with the flight status quo, is something that will haunt me for the rest of my life. I used to fly air ambulance with him and he was one of the finest pilots I have ever known. For the record he was not at the flight controls on the ill fated leg rather in the back seat with our children. However he had to know that the aircraft was not airworthy. For the general aviation public this is just another flight that ended tragically. For me the loss of my 3 children, the cruel irony in how they died, is profound and has altered the course of my life forever. For the full story about what happened to 690SM that night purchase "Angels Three: The Karen Perry Story" available on amazon. I am the mother of the 3 children who perished in this accident, a CFII/MEI and former 135/121 pilot.

[@tammithurm6545]

Thank you for telling this story. I am terribly sorry for your losses. I can't help but feel that ATC was at least partially responsible for this accident. Had they not extended the upwind takeoff leg and then just sent the aircraft on it's merry way, this accident might not have ever occurred. I also can't help thinking about how a Garmin G600 with SVT would have probably kept this aircraft out of danger. I am a firm believer in the value of that technology. I will look for your book on Amazon.

[@KarenPerry022402]

Hi Tammi see my comments about ATC later in the comments.

[@marthavaughan4660]

Karen, you use the term deficient as if it is a real smoking gun. There are many areas of deficiency in the industry but impossible to address them all. Unfortunately, too often change comes as a result of tragedy instead of proactively pursuing suspect areas.It has been said thateven airliners could be made 100% safe but the cost would be too great to sustain.I applaud your work in safety and hope to see you at a seminar. God bless you and your family.

[@sparky47807]

Belated condolences to you and your family ma'am.

[@homefront3162]

Karen Perry You have my prayers

[@berni9977]

This channel is great, but some of these accidents especially when children lose their lives is so sad. I mean sad because when these people first got in the doomed flights, they had no idea that they would be killed. Sometimes its a family that perish, with their dad being the Pilot. 😞😞 Finally its great how these video's give life saving info to Pilots and passengers for that matter ,advice that may save their lives....

[@villagelightsmith4375]

Learning where the rocks are is mighty important. But I am desperately concerned with knowing those places where they aren't. It's the details that get us every time. We fail to observe. We fail to evaluate. We fail to take corrective action. All the best, Karen. Jd'A

[@hughbassoon]

Amazingly well written and narrated! Thanks

[@azspotfree]

Years ago my wife cut a deal with me, I could keep spending/wasting tons of money flying my private small planes without her complaining, as long as I agreed not to put my kids in the planes.

[@orangestoneface]

thats what l was thinking...adults can decide to do risky things but ...

[@deew7014]

I’m with your wife on this one 👍

[@DAGNES3]

"Pilots often reported difficulties in getting flight following" "A long standing FAA policy with the PHX tracon that denies these services to VFR traffic" Just WTF are all the $200K(with benefits) per year controllers doing that is more important than providing a service to these aircraft? Who was fired over these preventable deaths? Why was PHX ATC so incompetently managed? Was the system immediately changed? How many controllers were on duty/break? What is their average time on position for an 8 hour shift?(I'm betting less than 5 hours) The report reads as though 96% is an acceptable rate of providing service. What is the yearly operating cost of the PHX tracon? Would a .1% increase in operating costs allow these services to be provided 100% of the time? (I'm betting, yes). The NTSB report is not very critical of the FAA. That's what happens when the government investigates the government. Yes, the pilot flew the plane into the mountain, but why is it the PHX tracon, culture to deny services to VFR pilots? The FAA/taxpayers should pay tens of millions for this one. Congress should be all over this as well. The taxpayers are not getting what we're paying for from PHX tracon.

[@shawnalley3309]

I remember reading in 2013 about furlough days for controllers being implemented along with the closure of some towers. Their response was to reduce services to VFR traffic. I'd like to see increased funding for controllers assuming they'll provide VFR services.

[@KarenPerry022402]

I agree as well and what many don't know is that there was a shift change in the control tower that night. The aircraft departed at 6:24 pm and at 6:30 there was a shift change right after 690SM exited the airspace for Falcon Tower. The controllers were doing a briefing for the next shift and had someone been monitoring the situation they would have seen an aircraft heading 250 mph toward a mountain. At 6:31 pm the aircraft hit the mountain. Having said that there were a sad chain of events that happened that night...a multitude of things that had any one of them been broken, the accident may have been avoided. For the full story purchase "Angels Three: The Karen Perry Story" available on amazon. I am the mother of the 3 children who perished in this accident, a CFII/MEI and former 135 /121 pilot.

[@TheFalconJetDriver]

ATC killed these people with their negligence of building the Class B airspace the way they did and having the history of not providing radar service to VFR flights

[@13megaprime]

you should tour a class B TRACON sometime. you'll understand why.

[@StoutProper]

For a start that plane shouldn't have even been in the air. If he'd followed regulations him and the 3 kids would still be alive today

[@robertd4468]

I have flown out of Falcon and Williams many times. The Superstition Mountains are most definitely something to be aware of over there. The treatment received by GA from PHX ATC is atrocious. Pilots are real busy in that area due to the tight airspace. Chandler airspace overlaps with Williams and Falcon is just across the freeway from Williams. There’s lots of handoffs on the comms during critical stages of flight. You need to be on your toes over there.

[@Michaelc136]

Out of the sadness ... I have slight happiness that there was no panic or pain before the crash

[@vladbcom]

I think only the pilot knew in the last 3-5 seconds as he tried to revv the engines... terrible tragedy

[@CIARUNSITE]

I don't really know why I watch these as I've never flown a plane. But I'm left thinking the world would probably be slightly better if other professions were as eager to learn from mistakes as this industry seems to be from the outside at least.

[@occyman]

Had a very experienced friend (21,000+ hrs) fly a Cheyenne into a mountainside on descent in IMC because his GPS went into dead reckoning mode earlier in the flight (when in VFR conditions) and he was slightly off course over 200nm of the journey. ATC didn't say anything either. Consequently when he started his descent in IMC he was 30miles off course and flew straight into the hillside. Killed six people. There were also two other experienced pilots on board. If he had just looked at his ADF it would've alerted him that he was well south of the airport instead of north. And he had flown that route hundreds of times. Complacency.

[@liamb8644]

occyman wow. Do you know where and when this happened? I’d like to read the full report it possible.

[@dryan8377]

@@Lostdeltallc You may be correct considering the way you worded it. GPS's don't have dead reckoning mode, but the program that is using the GPS signal DOES! Even my own phone does this when it loses gps.

[@charlesbrewer6552]

@@liamb8644 I also knew the pilot in this accident in Australia. The report is here www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2004/aair/aair200402797.aspx

[@flow5718]

I don't get accidents like this. How is a VFR pilot supposed to see a slab of rock at night with no surrounding lights? Why is there a bravo airspace ceiling around this airport that sits right beside this slab of rock but does not clear the slab of rock? The regulations and ATC played a part in this crash just as much as the pilot. The sad part is the pilot doomed them all (those poor children 😢) before he even took off without a terrain warning or mapping system. The ATC and crappy regulations did the rest and sealed their fate.

[@AK-rx6hv]

How are ATC and regulations responsible for this guy flying his plane into a mountain? Give me a break. A responsible pilot should know obstacles along his way regardless of regulations or ATC.

[@captainshipman7377]

@@AK-rx6hv Regulations are not responsible or the crash but definitely contributed. For one, it’s unlikely the pilot would have gotten cleared into the Bravo because of how the ATC in this area are. That section of Bravo airspace is so close to terrain, and that particular mountain only takes up a tiny amount of space on the chart which is easy to miss. Maybe they could put that as a hazard or warning area on the sectional chart, just like they do with high volume traffic areas, parachuting, gliding, or MOA’s just to give pilots extra notice. Just my opinion and I don’t like to judge the dead, because dying is enough punishment for a small mistake

[@jayallen9508]

Even with a train warning system, those rocks rise way too fast to get ample warning??😳😬

[@airjer]

Flying into the terrain is inexcusable. Just like running a red light (for example). You need to know ANY terrain along AND near your flight path. Never assume if you are VFR, that you will be able to get a class bravo clearance, especially at night. This accident is clearly on the shoulders of the PIC. I was actually flying into PHX at the same time this accident. It was soooo dark that night. No moon whatsoever.

[@captainshipman7377]

@K O fair point

[@lisaschuster9187]

I just sat silently after seeing this. It bothered me more than the other accident videos and I was done.

[@Syclone0044]

3:25 Am I understanding this correctly?! The flight was restricted from flying beyond 5000’ altitude, yet was expecting to fly over a 4800’ mountain? So, he essentially had a little 200ft window to fly through at night with the mountain essentially invisible to him? I’m not a pilot but that seems crazy. Can someone explain what he was supposed to do instead? I’m assuming plan a different route? (Ala a boat trying to sail across a too-shallow path?)

[@aussiejed1]

Syclone0044 The video shows how the extended departure followed by direct flight path caused the incident. As the video says, if the pilot had asked ATC for terrain warnings, or was using his iPad app, or knew there were mountains there and once given permission to turn altered his course to join his previous flight path further south... it would have been a normal flight. The question is why he did none of those things (though they don't know if he was or wasn't using his iPad) and for that they have no proper answer beyond complacency.

[@benlundgren3760]

It’s amazing what risks people will take for damn near no reason

[@teddyjackson1902]

Like using a plane to visit family on thanksgiving?

[@wrecksum]

ATC should accept some responsibility for the events leading to this accident.The departure instructions were not to help anyone but ATC .I have been flying for nearly 50 years and have watched the power and influence that controllers believe they have over us and nearly always the pilot will be blamed should any deviation occur.

[@DeeplyRooted07]

I strongly agree with you comment.

[@KarenPerry022402]

I agree as well and what many don't know is that there was a shift change in the control tower that night one minute prior to the accident. The aircraft departed at 6:24 pm and at 6:30 there was a shift change right after 690SM exited the airspace for Falcon Tower. The controllers were doing a briefing for the next shift and had someone been monitoring the situation they would have seen an aircraft heading 250 mph toward a mountain. At 6:31 pm the aircraft hit the mountain. For the full story purchase "Angels Three: The Karen Perry Story" available on amazon. I am the mother of the 3 children who perished in this accident, a CFII/MEI and former 135 /121 pilot.

[@DeeplyRooted07]

Oh wow, Karen, May God bless you.

[@arizonanumbersstation1727]

Or one can read the unbiased NTSB report available at NTSB.GOV for the real story. I find it astounding how many people here are so quick to proudly list their flying experience in years or hours and yet, can be so incredibly ignorant of the ATC system and how it works and the statutory limitations of procedures and and airspace of different types of facilities. I'm not buying it. Sure, this plays well for all the non-pilots out there reading--but for all of you pilots commenting--you know better! FFZ is a VFR Tower. The statutory limit of the airspace is 5 miles. The accident occurred at 15 miles--more than 3 times the Class D airspace limit. I'm very sorry for your loss. I've lost a child too. I know what that feels like. I can't imagine the pain of losing three children. It's just unthinkable. But I do not think you do their memories any justice by wrongly blaming other people who were not in any way responsible for this tragedy.

[@KarenPerry022402]

I do plenty to honor the memories of my 4 family members that died in this accident (my entire family by the way). I started a non-profit for children www.3wingsoflife.org, wrote a book, and do speaking engagements including Oshkosh, Women in Aviation, aviation colleges, etc. Apparently they don't think that I am ignorant. You have missed the whole point. I am not blaming ATC. If you had read the rest of my comments in the thread you would know that. ( Re-Posting some of it in the next reply below.) So while you criticize my ability to honor my family based on a set of isolated comments taken out of context ....and leave a blanket statement that all of us here are ignorant...criticize this.... I revealed my back ground for a sense of authenticity, credibility, and establishing a point of reference. While you come across as knowledgable, I find it interesting that you fail mention what your back ground is or even if you are a pilot. I too am sorry for your loss, but you of all people you should know better that this goes far beyond the loss of our children. I think there is much value in terms of learning by examining all of the aspects of this accident. It could have happened to anyone of us, experienced or not and it could happen again. I can assure you that I am very familiar with the NTSB report. I have read it forward, backward, upside down and every which way... While it is technically accurate, and I DO recommend reading it.... it leaves a lot to be desired when considering all of the collective aspects that affected this flight. Furthermore, the NTSB report made scant mention of the airspace issue that exists around Superstition Mountain. While 10 miles might seem like a long distance, (say if you are in a C-152) when you are eating up real estate as quickly as the turbine commander does (and we are talking about an aircraft that climbs out at roughly 2,850 feet per minute) a turbine Commander does not have any trouble getting out of its own way. Im glad you mentioned the Class D airspace limit too, because you failed to mention anything about the overlying Class B airspace. And now reading further I see that you were the on duty Airport Ops manager in the PHX TRACON that night. Let me put a few things into perspective for you. I am not the slightest bit intimidated by your comments. I believe that those who work at the FAA for the most part are dedicated professionals. When something goes wrong even if they were not technically at fault I am sure that they take it hard. But tomorrow comes and they get on with their life. For those of us left behind by accidents that at the very least unfolded as ATC was standing nearby, our lives our irrevocably changed. So respectfully and with much love, contrary to what Arizona Numbers Station tells you... If anyone knows what the real story is it is me. I have never stated that ATC was the primary culprit here. (And by the way I have been flying out of PHX since 1990 as a flight instructor, and with numerous operators under Part 135 and Part 121. I can assure you that I am intimately familiar with the airspace system there.) Having said all that, there was some liability on the part of the FAA and I can tell you that as fact. And as Paul Harvey would say "AND THAT IS THE REST OF THE STORY!"

[@encinobalboa]

I saw a Commander climbing out of Van Nuys today. Very sleek looking and fast.

[@benklotz6881]

I knew that airplane when it was based in Indiana. I was so shocked to hear about it during thanksgiving!

[@jimbeck3230]

I have been flying since 13 Sep 1975. Every flight I make over 50 miles I plot on a VFR chart. I know that for people that fly every day, especially on the same route, it may seem like a waste of time; however, more than once it made me aware of a ground clearance situation that was dangerous. Additionally, at night, there is much less traffic and I don’t think getting a clearance would have been an issue.

[@jimbeck3230]

M Detlef Not impossible. So do you chart every flight you make? The point is had this pilot charted his flight we wouldn’t be talking about this. So quit showing us what a dickhead you are.

[@rrknl5187]

Seems to me that the class B airspace altitude restrictions and to a lesser degree, GPS navigation, were a major cause of the accident. Perhaps the FAA should take a hard look at the possibility of restrictions and regulations causing more hazard then they mitigate.

[@andytaylor1588]

I agree. Although, ops as usual would have helped, with his tablet showing topographical features.

[@Bartonovich52]

Like the regulation for the aircraft to have a GPWS which it didn’t?

[@michaelbuckers]

@@Bartonovich52 All that stuff is expensive and accumulates fast, sometimes it's straight up impractical; there's a reason why GA craft are made to lesser standards than airliners. The same way as you can't really mandate any more safety than a helmet for motorcycling, even in spite of outrageous fatality rates.

[@davecarsley8773]

1:05 This seems to read to me that an airplane with 6 or more PASSENGER seats (not including the pilot) needs to be equipped with terrain warning systems. The way you describe this airplane (I'm no expert) is that it's a "six seat" plane. Wouldn't that mean it's only 5 passengers plus the pilot (who's seat doesn't count in the regulations)?? Not that I'm saying it was a good idea to _not_ have a terrain avoidance system, but the way I read the regulation, it wasn't actually required. I'm not a pilot... what am i missing?

[@arthouston7361]

One more thing. Mountains have no lighting at night. There are some similar mountains near Phoenix that become completely invisible at night. The only indication of their presence is the distinct LACK of lights, and there is no way to estimate your actual distance from them because there are no visible features to use for estimating that distance. Just a huge black blob that you know is there, somewhere.. Pretty scary in a Lear at 200 knots when repositioning to another airport nearby at night...

[@flagmichael]

True that. It does not help that the sky glow of Phoenix is at your back in most of those cases, often making stars scarce but simultaneously feeding the illusion that the pilot can see. If a pilot doesn't _know_ where the terrain is, it will rise up and smite him.

[@endwood]

I pop back in here every now & then, it's a wake up call to be more vigilant. As we age & gather more experience that doesn't always guarantee anything. This tragedy can end up being a useful tool when shown to aspiring pilots, their deaths need not be a complete waste. RIP

[@MyTube4Utoo]

*ATC:* "Fly straight out, I'll call your right turn for inbound traffic, runway Four Right, cleared for takeoff." So did the pilot just assume the controller was gonna keep him away from the mountain? All these stories are horrible, but most are at least somewhat understandable. In this tragedy it's like the most important concern in the immediate future no longer existed for the pilot! Yeah, it was the pilot's responsibility, but the controller knew when he turned, and that there was a 4,800 foot mountain like *RIGHT THERE!* I guess it's impossible to understand something that makes no sense.

[@ThatDrummaDave]

This was what my mind kept coming back to while watching this video. I wonder what caused the controller to request a delay in the right turn. Was there traffic nearby? I've been fascinated by this video series lately, though the tragedies involved are heartbreaking. I don't think I could handle being a controller, knowing that even something seemingly innocuous like this request could start a chain reaction leading to loss of souls.

[@tomkarlsborn2384]

Still it is the pilot's responsibility to be aware of obstacles

[@bermchasin]

@@tomkarlsborn2384 its their responsibility, but the controller signed his death certificate.

[@tomkarlsborn2384]

@@bermchasin This is very true. I have been in this situation many times and had to take action against the controller's directives to avoid terrain. Sad but true.

[@nocalsteve]

The airport that I fly out of will often have this phrase on the ATIS, "Approach Control is requesting flight following for all departing aircraft." This is at an active but not busy municipal airport outside of a nearby Class C airspace.

[@theoldman8877]

This is tragic. And was completely avoidable. The pilot needed to be fully aware of the terrain surrounding the departure airport and on both sides along the route. Had the necessary chart study been done it would not have happened. I was handed a departure route from an airport by ATC that put me onto an area I was not prepared to traverse I said no and proceeded to tell the Controller what I was going to do. Later in the day when I returned to that airport I was invited to the town by the Supervising Controller he thanked me for helping him train a new Controller. That was not aware of the problems that can be caused by issuing instructions that put aircraft into situations that are more dangerous than the filed flighplan.

[@randyp6370]

One of the passengers was my instructor at the airline on the Airbus, nice guy.

[@KarenPerry022402]

That would have been Shawn Perry.

[@LordSandwichII]

The airworthiness of the aircraft WAS a factor: The aircraft was required to be fitted with terrain detection in order to be airworthy, and if it had, the crash wouldn't have happened.

[@tomr.4708]

I never go in/out of PHX without thinking about this accident. Always looking at those mountains...

[@AK-rx6hv]

Would you drive your car at night without being able to see the road just because your GPS tells you to? Exactly. This is 100% pilot error, incredible seeing comments suggesting this is because of the airspace regulations or ATC? If you're going to instrument fly at night because of no visibility, then you need to be fully aware of all obstacles along and near your route, and probably should have terrain warning systems as well if flying with no visibility.

[@michaelpowers9259]

i can learn from this. good video.

[@VLove-CFII]

When the stars in front of you are disappearing, you are too low.

[@bafee6496]

Great video.Appreciate.

[@endwood]

OUCH!!! Situational awareness is something that reduces when other circumstances are present such as the pilot would have/should know that he was about to conduct an illegal flight, sadly safety takes a back seat when other pressures are present. RIP to the innocent.

[@lbowsk]

Yet another reason to ALWAYS go on an IFR flight plan at night or in mountainous terrain and IMC conditions.

[@songmaster9308]

FAA discourage allowing VFR flight following? Complicit in this accident due to bureaucratic incompetency.

[@Bartonovich52]

VFR flight following is a courtesy, not a requirement. TRACON controllers are busy and keeping track of every little VFR target distracts them from controlling and separating IFR traffic. Remember, when you are VFR you are responsible for your own terrain clearance. Most of the time I used VFR flight following I was well below radar vectoring altitudes anyways.

[@ogc90]

Funny thats not what the NTSB found , they did an audit on P90 and found that they DIDNOT discourage VFR FF, but spewing you bullshit ideas is better than reading the NTSB report

[@RobertJamesChinneryH]

yes but why did the plane not have ground proximity

[@13megaprime]

@@RobertJamesChinneryH cost, and (lack of ) necessity. Plus, it might not have even mattered in this case. speed and reaction time might not have been enough to avoid the mountain. the best ground proximity and anti CFIT device is knowing exactly where you are and where the ground is at all times, and it works very well until it doesnt.

[@TheDjcarter1966]

@@Bartonovich52 Well then if they aren't supplying any help when they deny your request just tell them climbing to 5500 (or whatever you have determined is highest obstacle near your route) to stay clear of terrain, if they deny your request say OK will accept your flight following then continue to advise.

[@bobbypaluga4346]

I remember this incident well. and I also fly out of Falcon Field. I think about my kids and how would I feel to lose them in such a tragic air crash . I’m sure whatever I could think of, nothing comes close to your reality. Because it took place at night and the flight was into a mountainous country, it’s that more frightening. I’m very sorry

[@jolly_roger2]

I'm confused, obviously pilot error was main cause of the crash but... if ATC knew a VFR flight would remain below Class Bravo airspace why would you send them further to the north when you knew they were going to turn right afterwards directly into the mountains?? Obviously pilot should know about the terrain but as ATC you should definitely help them avoid these kind of obstacles I would think...

[@ttbu29]

Probably a combination of things, to include that ATC wouldn't have had knowledge about the plane lacking a Terrain Warning system. Just awful anyway you look at it.

[@ericb9426]

If the flight is VFR, it is not ATCs job. I'm a pilot and don't work for ATC but this was the pilot's responsibility. Charts and the many electronic toys all show terrain issues. Ignore them at your peril.

[@antigen4]

seems to me a pilot should familiarize themselves with terrain along their route as part of their prep

[@maxb4074]

If you have ever been to Western cities like Las Vegas, Albuquerque, El Paso, Phoenix its very obvious that tall mountains loom directly over these cities. You know these mountains are there, and they are NOT hills.

[@sarahwatson7692]

Eric B When flying near or across/through mountains you should always be at an altitude of at least 1000 feet above the highest terrain.

[@Dgriffis-u9d]

I learned to fly in az and NM , high altitude terrain, must never get lax.

[@kencohagen4967]

This happened in my neighborhood, so to speak. I was living in the flightpath at the time. I remember the news report of the accident. I had a beautiful view of the Superstitions from the back yard of my home. I wasn't outside that night, had I been I would have seen the fire from the crash. This is dangerous territory! During the day several aircraft, a lot of them War Birds, fly by Ethel Superstitions with a chase aircraft taking pictures for several magazines. If your a pilot I guarantee you've seen these photos in flight magazines. If you're a warbirds enthusiast your might have seen them too! It was so sad to hear that such an easily avoidable accident occurred. My deepest sympathies go out to the the families and friends of all about that flight. Plan your flights carefully, especially near the Superstition mountain range. It's unforgiving country, and even if you made it out of the aircraft alive you may not make it back to civilization. Always plan your route, and don't rely 100% on local aircontrol to get you though a situation! Do whatever you have to do to get the job done safely! Without that, you're just another pile of aluminum on the ground! Improve your naive systems to warn you about all the hazards terracing tonat could effect your you're flight! Peace, and happy flying nowmatter where you decide to fly too. And make sure you have yourheads safely stored until this work until this is cc until this they understaśc.

[@bestboy138]

Lessons I’ve learned after watching many many aviation videos. Don’t fly in bad weather. Don’t fly at night. Don’t panic.

[@canconservative8976]

Treat every flight like it's your first solo flight....that much attention...always.

[@dr.pastrami5272]

Roger that. .

[@kencohagen4967]

I'm not a pilot, but being an enthusiast who lived by the superstitions I know that any pilot would have to know exactly what altitude was when flying in the area. We watched all kinds of air traffic when we lived in the area, and saw all kinds of aircraft being flown with the superstitions as a backdrop. Everything from B17's and Corsairs to Mig 15's were commonly seen with a camera plane in tow. They must have gotten some awesome photos for flight magazines out there!

[@PalfreySam]

Looks like they changed departure procedures for Rwy 4 L & R that completely avoids terrain

[@SparkyWaxAll]

Very sad. Similar to Reba McIntyre's band crash in CA

[@scottpatrick8645]

I stopped half way, the fact that ATC does not mandate 5000 ft. upon departure in that directional heading is criminal. Shame on them.

[@olasek7972]

Scott Hillary no, it isn’t criminal, if you don’t fly IFR you are in charge, not ATC, learn about aviation and how it works, if you want ATC to keep you from terrain - fly IFR.

[@TheDjcarter1966]

@@olasek7972 So what would ATC say if you said climbing to 6000 awaiting your instructions for the right turn. They would tell you to stay below 5000 then you tell them I'm VFR it my responsibility I'll do what I want?

[@olasek7972]

David Carter such conversation would never happen between VFR pilot and the tower. Only the tower controller was involved here and he doesn’t control airspace outside of his class D which is 4 mile radius around the airport and up to about 3400 feet. This controller cares less what you do if you depart his airspace. It was the tower controller which extended his leg because there was conflicting traffic and the accident airplane was still in his area.

[@olasek7972]

ianh no, the mountain was very far from this particular controller, it would make very little sense, the controller behaved very reasonably, only those who know little about flying can write such nonsensical comments

[@olasek7972]

ianh controllers have other things in front of them, yes, your bad, learn about their jobs and stop write gibberish

[@drjimjam1112]

Flying relief flights for hurricane Andrew ATC assigned me heading and altitude that different from our pilots briefing guidelines. I thought well he’s a TC he must know what he’s doing. Missed a head on collision by about 150 feet lateral distance exact same altitude In the haze that day. I never saw him until we passed each other. He being on the correct heading and altitude for that mission. I learned a big lesson from that encounter, one that has stayed with me ever since. I am no longer afraid to say no to atc.