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All About The Polish FB-Radom Mini Beryl M1 AK Pistol

  Рет қаралды 31,185

Mishaco

Mishaco

Күн бұрын

After years of waiting, the Mini Beryl pistol from FB-Radom, Poland is finally here. In this first video, we cover some of the history, the features, and overall quality of this firearm.
Also we address some issues about this version, including the barrel length, rear trunnion, and sight rail assembly. Please watch before modifying your own Mini Beryl!
Interested in becoming a Patreon contributor? Check out our Patreon page at:
/ mishaco
Visit mishacooba.blog... to read more articles.
This video is produced and published to KZbin for historical and educational purposes and to document and make record of the content herein publicly available for said purposes. The Mishaco channel is run by experienced and trained industry professionals and all activity portrayed and content herein is presented with all considerations to safety and in accordance with local, state, and the Federal law of the United States.

Пікірлер: 139
@jamesray1439
@jamesray1439 3 жыл бұрын
Misha don’t worry about what other channels are doing. I come here for your unique presentation style. That’s the problem with a bunch of the other channels, they’re basically the same thing. You and Jay put out content that otherwise wouldn’t be covered or presented as well.
@finkamain1621
@finkamain1621 3 жыл бұрын
This could be considered ASMR with his voice talking about guns
@bryanupton9872
@bryanupton9872 3 жыл бұрын
Amen
@ayarzeev8237
@ayarzeev8237 3 жыл бұрын
He is the only person that actually explained the barrel going into the muzzle device.
@OlegSeattle6589
@OlegSeattle6589 3 жыл бұрын
I really like his knowledge, cool guy, love his presentation style
@mattygunn3852
@mattygunn3852 3 жыл бұрын
Well said!!!
@podunkman2709
@podunkman2709 3 жыл бұрын
Fabryka Broni Radom... legend
@ihadalife1177
@ihadalife1177 3 жыл бұрын
Been waiting for this one!
@therideneverends1697
@therideneverends1697 3 жыл бұрын
Im really hopeing these go well and FB and AOA feel compelled to get some full size rifles in
@RedDawnAK74
@RedDawnAK74 3 жыл бұрын
Awesome content thanks for all the knowledge and effort. Looked up the polish grot because of this video
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
A semi-auto MSBS isn't out of the question either, but 'if' it were to happen, it would be several years from now.
@Leman.Russ.6thLegion
@Leman.Russ.6thLegion 3 жыл бұрын
I want to get one and name it "lil Chub" or "lil bastard".
@Juan_Stabone
@Juan_Stabone 3 жыл бұрын
Go with bastard please
@CheapandCheaper
@CheapandCheaper Жыл бұрын
Just an fyi-The rail has set screws, it can be removed.
@SuperMarshall2009
@SuperMarshall2009 2 жыл бұрын
Mishaco, There is a hack for those who need a Beryl front sight adjustment tool Use a 5mm (square) Clock winding tool. A swiss #11 winding key/tool is 5mm square and works well for a Front sight adjustment tool A normal AK tool is too small and no tools imported or offered with the guns.
@cajuncatfish5417
@cajuncatfish5417 3 жыл бұрын
I knew this vid would drop soon! Been waiting for this!
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
We were trying to wait for nice weather for a rannge day, but....
@cajuncatfish5417
@cajuncatfish5417 3 жыл бұрын
@@misha5670 Yeah... Could be a while. It's just an excuse to do another video on the Mini Beryl later! I can't get enough of it.
@polyteclegendgoldentiger1225
@polyteclegendgoldentiger1225 3 жыл бұрын
Dang I’ll have to watch this in the am can’t wait finishing the empire strikes back right now
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Spoiler alert, Vader is Luke's father, and Han & Chewie finally make their relationship official.
@A8vscRrabbit
@A8vscRrabbit 3 жыл бұрын
@@misha5670 😮😂
@polyteclegendgoldentiger1225
@polyteclegendgoldentiger1225 3 жыл бұрын
@@misha5670 no....no that’s not true. This is why I love this channel keep up the great work guys.
@marcuslaker5876
@marcuslaker5876 3 жыл бұрын
After Hahn officially identifies as a Wookiee.
@micahyoung3611
@micahyoung3611 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video I can’t wait to get mine I think the weather has delayed things a bit
@joemorganeatmyshortschannel
@joemorganeatmyshortschannel 3 жыл бұрын
very cool wish i had one and i really love the videos keep them coming
@wewon5325
@wewon5325 3 жыл бұрын
I love your ak-47 knowledge I will share this video!
@romeosgenericchannel3971
@romeosgenericchannel3971 3 жыл бұрын
Very cool, I gotta get one! Thanks for sharIng Misha! You da man!
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Yep, its a solid gun, and i have no serious complaints. I think i'll get mine SBR'd just as soon as we test it at the range. Want to make 100% sure its reliable before marrying it with a stamp lol.
@romeosgenericchannel3971
@romeosgenericchannel3971 2 жыл бұрын
@@misha5670 haha update a year later, I bought one from ya! So excited to check it out ! Much love and respect bro
@scottdunn2178
@scottdunn2178 3 жыл бұрын
I think the bakelite grip on that Polish Tantal is even cooler than the actual Soviet style.
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
In Poland, the longer they used them, the redder and then oranger they got. So by the time of the Tantal? yep haha
@scottdunn2178
@scottdunn2178 3 жыл бұрын
@@misha5670 Ha ha! The grease from all that Polish Sausage must have seeped through their sweat, lol. Seriously though, I didn't know that bit of trivia. The grip on my Polish AKM had turned that cool orange terracotta color. Didn't a US made bakelite grip similar to these exist several years ago? Take care of yourself, Misha 🙏
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
@@scottdunn2178 I didn't mean to suggest that the plastic itself changed colour over time, but rather that Radom's manufacturing turned out different colours over time. Originally PGs were black, then brown, then they started shading from brown to red, then more/less pure red, and finally the red started to lighten up to something like orange. Of course the final circle11 AKMS rifles did have black PGs again, so it kind of came around full circle I suppose.
@scottdunn2178
@scottdunn2178 3 жыл бұрын
@@misha5670 Couldn't they decide what color they liked? lol.
@dandude2010
@dandude2010 2 жыл бұрын
A Bonesteel Arms brace would work great with this little monster
@Verthias
@Verthias 3 жыл бұрын
Would be cool if you could find these in stock.
@okchief
@okchief 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks Misha! Fedex has mine right now, but it should be in this week! I guess it looks like the barrel is chrome lined. AoA didn't list it on the page, it only said hammer forged. I ASSUMED it was going to be chrome lined, but I did worry a bit since it didn't say so. I wasn't going to wait around and ask. They sold out quick and I'm glad I jumped on it. Probably just going to put the SB TF1913 on it, along with their adapter that goes on under the pistol grip. I believe Atlantic showed that it mounts on, even with the sling loop.
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
The bore is chromelined, yes.
@jtrinidad9625
@jtrinidad9625 3 жыл бұрын
Can’t wait to see you do a review of the new Zastava M90
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Its a'coming
@eckrph
@eckrph 3 жыл бұрын
Great video! Enjoyed it very much even though the angle of the camera sometimes had escaped the important details:) Anyway, thank you for your info and I would like to let everyone to know that those critters are available from Atlantic Firearms. They just got those in!!
@oldtexasstyle9944
@oldtexasstyle9944 3 жыл бұрын
This wouldve been a huge hit if they just put a pic rail on the back
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
It was a hit. They sold out in under an hour. The trunnion isn't an issue. If they had put a Pic rail on the back, people would have found something else to complain about. Like for example that you can't easily attach a suppressor.
@azstuffandsuch2167
@azstuffandsuch2167 3 жыл бұрын
So I have a gen 1 beryl and it most definitely doesnt have a 16" barrel. I believe its 19" with the wierd tantal style muzzle device.
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Sorry but wasn't counting the muzzle device. The rule of thumb in the gun community is that if a device is removable, it doesn't count towards OAL, cheers.
@azstuffandsuch2167
@azstuffandsuch2167 3 жыл бұрын
@@misha5670 you do know on the gen 1s the barrel goes all almost all the way to the end of the device? I'd post a pic but I dont think I can on youtube.
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
@@azstuffandsuch2167 I have had a bit of experience with the Archer, yes.
@thevally6127
@thevally6127 Жыл бұрын
Are these mini beryls worth getting over a milled mini jack?
@realfnneato3111
@realfnneato3111 3 жыл бұрын
WOOOOOOOOOOOO
@Somnio64
@Somnio64 3 жыл бұрын
im gonna give it the proper rear trunnion, do you know if Polish AKM rivets are dimensionally the same or if I need to get proprietary beryl rivets made?
@et4728
@et4728 3 жыл бұрын
@Misha I am building a polish parts kit , would this mini beryl rear trunnion work with my 762 by 39 build?
@toki89666
@toki89666 3 жыл бұрын
It's really cool that you are going SBR with this one, the Mini Beryl really is a worthy candidate if anything is. Will this be your first SBR? I've been watching for a couple of years now and watched many of the older videos as well and I dont think I've ever seen or heard mention of one on this channel, other than future plans. No judgement here. All of my "SBRs" are still just future SBRs too lol.
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Nah, the SLR104UR, Bren 2S, Scorpion Evo3, and a couple others are ahead of this Mini B. Also thinking hard about the Tavor X95 because despite everything, i actually really like that little bullpup.
@wahidkapadia5652
@wahidkapadia5652 Жыл бұрын
With looming brace ban coming, I am wondering how 922r will apply to imported pistol for amnesty. From what I understand, there are 20 parts for 922r but only 16 apply to AK. Can I SBR the Mini Beryl and be 922r compliant if I use I use US made mag which are 3 parts, US made stock, pistol grip and muzzle brake?
@vlodpg
@vlodpg 3 жыл бұрын
Actually I.O. did mess it up. The 1st gen had the wrong type flash hider/barrel, Gen 2 corrected that but the rear trunnion was one rivet short, 3rd gen everything for most part was correct with the exception of locking latch on the recoil assembly. My 2nd gen, the butchers at IO installed the US made brake upside down. and did a poor job opening the mag well(metal shavings in the lower)
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Oh we've definitely documented the Archer generations multiple times. Your Archer had shavings in the receiver? Mine came in with the entire side plate they cut out to convert from single to double stack rattling around inside there. It was about 0.5" wide and 3" long lol
@vlodpg
@vlodpg 3 жыл бұрын
@@misha5670 Damn! I thought mine was bad.
@BNatoAk
@BNatoAk Жыл бұрын
That's the Russian 100 series long collar technique but even more stable!
@turbografx16
@turbografx16 3 жыл бұрын
Hey Misha, looks like there might be a bit of corrosion under your Tantal muzzle device. Might want to check it out.
@tomelroy
@tomelroy 3 жыл бұрын
Great info....i am glad they dimpled the mag well,,,that was the only complaint I had with the archer... Any way you could offer all your videos on DVD, SD, etc.. So much info great info that could disappear overnight!
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you but the Archer did have the magwell dimples on the sides but perhaps you are referring to the dimple on the underside at the front? If so, the Archer lacks that because it had to be imported with a 'low-cap' magwell to comply with the law. You can see the same with the new Beryl 762 S M1 carbine too.
@tomelroy
@tomelroy 3 жыл бұрын
@@misha5670 Yes the underside dimple...they should do it like the SA2000M, only the back half of the mag well is narrower which restricts standard double stacks,, but the front half is wide and has the dimple. The end product would be better.
@marcuslaker5876
@marcuslaker5876 3 жыл бұрын
Misha don’t contract COVID19, COVID19 contract Misha.
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Had it and used it as an excuse to get a couple days of great napping in. But my wife? it hit her harder and took her a couple weeks to get over. One of my employees has it now and has a feavor of 103 and hasn't been having a great time either. All in all, 0 out of 10, would not recommend for your next vacation heh.
@slidin7901
@slidin7901 Жыл бұрын
Can it use aks74u Handguards????
@lytening79
@lytening79 3 жыл бұрын
Misha, I've always understood that barrel length is measured from the bolt face to the crown. If my understanding is correct, that would mean that with even a 9.3" barrel, a 1/9 twist would not be sufficient to rotate the bullet one time. Do you agree?
@toki89666
@toki89666 3 жыл бұрын
Yep, I believe the part everyone forgets is that the chamber is included in bbl length (except revolvers) so to determine approximately the length of rifled bore you must subtract the length of a spent casing. 5.56 case is 44.7 mm or 1.76". Might as well just round to 1.8" but then you have a bit more to subtract because of the throat, so may as well call it 2". So roughly 7.25 or 184 mm of rifled bore is all there is to put a spin on the projectile. 1/9 twist means you get 0.8 of a turn.
@OFFICIALUND
@OFFICIALUND 3 жыл бұрын
@@toki89666 well said. Thanks
@skirb09
@skirb09 3 жыл бұрын
Misha, is it reasonable for a gunsmith to quote $1000 to replace and install the rear "Mini Beryl Stock Trunnion"? Fullerphx.com seems to think it is, but I think its kind of steep for only working on those 6 rivets. I am not sure how much work really goes into it but thought I would ask. Thanks!
@user-yj6cl1nf8c
@user-yj6cl1nf8c 2 жыл бұрын
I need a ambi selector that’s the dumbest thing fb did is remove the ambi selector
@Scott079
@Scott079 3 жыл бұрын
I think any new import AK is a good thing for us, but it definitely could’ve been done better
@bryanl6272
@bryanl6272 3 жыл бұрын
So out of curiosity, will any AKM style plunger/detent and spring work for the FSB ? Is there any in particular that works best?
@Jojo69869
@Jojo69869 3 жыл бұрын
Mishaco You may have rust on your tantal barrel in front of the threads
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
No worries, its all good.
@Bubnazty
@Bubnazty 3 жыл бұрын
I'm very glad I got my Mini Beryl but I have to disagree with you about how they did the rail mounting options. To be clear the high rail that comes mounted is fine. I like that it's authentic and original to the Mini Beryl. My issue is that they didn't use front trunnions with the rail cut side slots and the rear trunnions they imported are missing the mounting nub on the back like you mentioned. If they had included these two options you can then easily remove the factory mounted rail and install the full length rail instead. Sure I understand that it is not the typical configuration for the Mini Beryl and maybe the short single mount rail is better but why not give us the choice? I thought the original short rail was riveted on but after looking closer it is only installed with two set screws. I was easily able to remove mine on the Mini Beryl which makes the lack of provisions for the other full length rail option all the more frustrating. I will be SBR'ing my rifle so these features would be applicable once the rear trunnion is installed. I cannot find any references to Military Mini Beryl rifles not having the front trunnion cuts and rear rail mounting tang numb prior to this pistol import. Again they probably exist but the vast majority of Mini Beryl's seem to have them so in my mind it's not as an authentic version of the military gun as it could have been by excluding them. I really hope FB Radom changes this on future import batches. This is me nit picking honestly but I don't see why they changed it in the first place. Also hopefully Arms of America will bring in the front handguard rails for them soon as well. FYI you don't need to insert a bullet tip to change the rear sight from the notch to the aperture. The detent is spring loaded and moves with enough pressure like any other AK flip rear sight. Thanks as always for the great videos!
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
FB has both the traditional sights version w/ the cutouts & the M1913 rail version on their sight. The POPC-2 type short rail originally on the MB is rather 'meh' to get it on and rock-solidly secured. As a pistol and as such, i feel they made the right call here. As for the rear trunnion, instead of installing the version I have for mine on an SBR, just install the version for a fulllsized Beryl if you want the rear nubbin for some lovin. I have the full length options on both my WBP Fox and Archer, so i like having the MB setup differently. As for the rear sight, i did pressing mine by hand w/o any luck. Rob said to use a bullet tip, so that was what i tried and it worked easily. Maybe with some use, mine will work in and be easier to move? I'm not really feeling like nitpicking just because itw as a minor miracle these came in at all. A lot of behind the scenes events tried hard to cancel these.
@KingOfCornchips
@KingOfCornchips 3 жыл бұрын
Anyone have a reference picture of a mini beryl RSB without the notches cut in them? I cannot find a single one. Likewise never seen a picture of a mini beryl without the tab on the rear trunnion.
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
FB lists the Picatinny version on their official website. Its in Polish but should have some pictures. That said, ATM i'm working on getting more information about this version direct from the horse's mouth. I'll share what I learn when we do the range review video, cheers.
@warzonebrothers5244
@warzonebrothers5244 3 жыл бұрын
How many of these were brought to the states?
@appalachiangunrunner5613
@appalachiangunrunner5613 3 жыл бұрын
Honestly, as cool as having something close to military versions is, and that's how I like my aks, I believe most American shooters would rather have options with muzzle devices and rear sights/optics mounts. I like the close to military take on it, but most american shooters are spoiled and they want options and this doesn't deliver that. Thats why I think it'll change over time slightly, because the American market will complain. If about nothing else they'll complain about the barrel and want to use other muzzle devices.
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
These will be imported in small numbers, and are targetted at military collectors. They aren't designed to comply with the demands of your average consumer, who even if they did make changes, would just complain about something else and thus find other excuses not to buy. Keep in mind too that with every change, new permission for importation must be obtained. This is particularly true for changes to do with barrel length.
@CBDPiggy
@CBDPiggy 2 жыл бұрын
❤️
@angelgutter8249
@angelgutter8249 3 жыл бұрын
Great video as usual! Oddly though, circle 10 mags fit mine like a glove... I also bought the rear trunnion but believe I’d rather attach a brace. How do you feel about clipping the sling attachment? That loop bothers me... Edit..only fit 2 of my 106 black 30s. Not even close on the clear 20s
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Clip that bar off; no harm at all in doing so IMO. Yeah, with my Archer some circle10s will fit, others no way. Its a craps shoot.
@ricksanchez7244
@ricksanchez7244 3 жыл бұрын
@@misha5670 I will probably also remove the sling swivel loop so I can mount a brace, I believe the CNC/ bonesteel braces look the closest to the FB folding stocks so that is something I'm interested in but even though it's less "clone correct" in terms of looks I considered maybe going with a Zentico/tailhook combo with the cheek riser that I think would look really awesome on this gun.
@kevspss
@kevspss 3 жыл бұрын
Mine is at the dealer and I have a trunion as well. Are they coming out with the forend rail. Also is the stanag adapter available.
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Yes, they want to import additional parts/accessories for these, to include furniture options. Sorry, not sure on the magwell adaptor though but I'll ask. I have a list of questions for FB/AoA next time.
@shantheman2871
@shantheman2871 2 жыл бұрын
Were did you get your sling?
@herrmateuss
@herrmateuss 3 жыл бұрын
I hope skilled gunsmith can replicate orginal front rail mount
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
No worries, just buy the Polish original. Those should be on the market later this year.
@jamesdeek7756
@jamesdeek7756 3 жыл бұрын
That rail is hideous in my opinion
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
I'm trying to use it as a carry handle lol.
@oc2419
@oc2419 3 жыл бұрын
Does the archer take different magazines than since magwel is different ?
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Magwell is only different in that the Archer had to ahve its magwell opened up here in the USA, while the Mini Beryl came in with a standard milspec magwell.
@AA-dn8dj
@AA-dn8dj 3 жыл бұрын
All 5.56 AK mags are interchangeable, same with 5.45 and 7.62x39.
@oc2419
@oc2419 3 жыл бұрын
@@misha5670 strange stuff with imports
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
@@AA-dn8dj Sorry but gotta disagree. The 5.56 AK mag situation is a bit of a mess. There isn't 1 standard like there is with previous AK models. This is because each country designed & developed their 5.56 cal AK variants more or less independently. One of the big differences is was it based on the AKM or AK74 trunnion pattern? Can most 5.56 mags be sanded, filed, or reshaped to fit in most .223 AKs? Yes but some take work and aren't drop in. As seen in this very video, an Arsenal waffle .223 mag won't even come close to locking in this Mini Beryl. The same is true for my Archer, just won't fit, too wide/thick. Heck, even within Chinese .223 AKs, there are 2 different patterns of magazines lol.
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
@@oc2419 Rifles haven't been allowed to come in taking "high cap" mags since a Clinton EO back in late 1997, which built upon the original Bush EO from 1989, which itself was based on the original GCA in 1968. Washington DC; screwing gun owners hard and repeatedly for over 80 years!
@MiGallagher
@MiGallagher 3 жыл бұрын
10:30 😸
@piotrmonachium4095
@piotrmonachium4095 3 жыл бұрын
🙂👌🇵🇱
@stevenkennedy4130
@stevenkennedy4130 3 жыл бұрын
Neat-0!!
@Jose-xm3tq
@Jose-xm3tq 3 жыл бұрын
She is begging to be an SBR... Dam Temptress!!!!
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Its only logical.
@warzonebrothers5244
@warzonebrothers5244 3 жыл бұрын
Can you please explain this to me?
@warzonebrothers5244
@warzonebrothers5244 3 жыл бұрын
@Jones oh so basically if you want to add a stock to a compact gun you need paperwork?
@warzonebrothers5244
@warzonebrothers5244 3 жыл бұрын
What if you buy one as is from someone
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
@@warzonebrothers5244 16" is the minimum barrel length allowed for a rifle (18" for a shotgun). Anything shorter and a buttstock is illegal. That is unless you register it with the ATF has an SBR (Short Barrel Rifle), which is a $200 fee for a tax stamp. It doesn't matter if you put the stock on or someone else did. If the barrel is less than 16" its illegal. Actually, the punishment is the same as for an illegal/unreigstered machinegun: up to 7-10 years in club-Fed. I hope this helps & keep safe.
@diegomontoya3065
@diegomontoya3065 3 жыл бұрын
Long time commenter, first time watching, new stuff. Great! Keep making content, quit your job, buy a factory. No claps or meme reviews. Just guns.
@KevinNiven
@KevinNiven 3 жыл бұрын
How can I email you? I'm looking to purchase . Thanks!
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
Sorry, I have none to sell.
@Juan_Stabone
@Juan_Stabone 3 жыл бұрын
A(K)SMR
@zokhrozzWoomzy
@zokhrozzWoomzy 3 жыл бұрын
Poop
@Threefiftylegend
@Threefiftylegend 3 жыл бұрын
A 6 year old akm. I'll pass nun new here 😂
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
6 year old? The Mini Beryl first came out in 1997, with the modernized 96C around 2009. If you mean the semi-auto pistol? 2021 is the first time for these at least. That said, 100% can understand why this isn't someone's cup of tea.
@mohammedines6182
@mohammedines6182 3 жыл бұрын
👍🎩🏴‍☠️🏴‍☠️🏴‍☠️
@garywalter5841
@garywalter5841 3 жыл бұрын
O my God camera problems you hang in there buddy.;
@mikeemaus617
@mikeemaus617 4 ай бұрын
Useless video lots of talk lots of caressing the rifle, not a lot of actual content....off my list.
@mr.rosarioshistoryvlog9303
@mr.rosarioshistoryvlog9303 3 ай бұрын
He is a scholar and is a historian. People listen to him because he is basically a scholar of AK rifles. He is not for everyone
@partainbanner
@partainbanner 3 жыл бұрын
The 9.3 inch barrel makes this weapon useless in 556. Hard pass...
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
SG552/553 has an 8.9" barrel.
@partainbanner
@partainbanner 3 жыл бұрын
@@misha5670 its useless too...
@misha5670
@misha5670 3 жыл бұрын
@@partainbanner They might not be useful for your purposes, but they both most certainly have uses for some others in different situations, for different roles.
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