All One Story? - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Super #17 Arc Part 5

A story arc finished in five parts? What a blast from the past! Yes, it's time to wrap up Super #17 already with a fight sequence that makes Goku look really, really dumb. It's rather par for the course here. But what about Super #17's context in the grander GT story? Should this even be considered a standalone story, or does it belong as part of The Evil Dragon Arc? Let's explore!
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[@GribbleGob]

Goku shooting MORE energy after realizing 17 is absorbing blasts is like hitting a computer that isn't responding

[@rin4425]

I'll be honest the only reason they had Goku spam ki blast is mostly because Goku in SSJ could handle Super 17 without him having anything absorbed so if he turned SSJ4 the arc would've been wrapped up very fast.

[@GribbleGob]

@@rin4425 Definitely.

[@mechajay3358]

Meh, Sometimes a computer responds, with Goku he's knowingly making 17 more powerful

[@louisvictor3473]

At least hitting a computer feels good. Can't say the same for Goku just blasting 17 without a plan.

[@TheStarkillerSithlord327]

or pouring more oil into a grease fire.

[@Blasckk]

Isn't it funny how clothes work in GT? Goku has his shirt destroyed when he's fighting in his child body, he transforms into SSJ4 and when he returns to normal... his shirt is back in perfect condition. I guess the pants aren't the only magical thing about SSJ4.

[@MistareFusion]

Oh, geez. That's hilarious. I didn't even notice that!

[@theinvestigativemillennial9381]

Hey Super Saiyan 4 just wants him to look fashionable! Lol

[@cyberninjazero5659]

Since clothes making beams are an actual canonical move in this franchise, I think we can assume that if Goku doesn't actively use it, his Ki automatically does it between transformations

[@AislingNightmare]

I know I saw a fancomic once about Chichi cutting SSJ3’s hair a lot to sell for wigs. I wonder if they could sell Super Saiyan 4 pants the same way? 🤔

[@louisvictor3473]

Goku was feeling bad for not having copied one of Piccolo's attacks - he copied from all of his friends but not piccolo? big green shouldn't be singled out! - so after years he finally learned the clothes beam, but modified it a bit. This is also why he was doing random ki blasts in this arc, he was also feeling bad for leaving his best buddy out, so he copied one of Vegeta's moves to make things right.

[@joshtheryuk]

"A good writer lets the characters drive the plot. A bad writer lets the plot drive the characters."

[@mechajay3358]

3:43 Vegeta: "Curse that Kakarot, Stealing My Technique!"

[@SabaClayMateSaba]

™️ included.

[@FitzyCify]

Goku: "Whaaaat? I don't steal techniques!"

[@InfernoCleric384]

"Where are my royalties, Kakarot?!"

[@SpeedRacer896]

Similar to the "Oh, they're ghost warriors effect," I'd like to dub 18 not suspecting that 17 was being mind controlled the "nakama effect". She thought he was acting strange until he said "you're my nakama", then her suspicion immediately subsided.

[@MistareFusion]

Haha, I love it.

[@sumeracarnatia6997]

Had completely forgotten the Dragon Balls cracking happened without any outside stimuli. That implies if Pilaf didn’t try use the Black Star Dragon Balls, Goku wouldn’t’ve become a kid, meet Baby, eventually regrow his tail and gain SSJ4 to defeat Baby, which in turn means he and the others likely wouldn’t have had the power to stop Omega Shenron at the end, even with the Spirit Bomb as Goku wouldn’t have left an impact on the different planets of the universe.

[@louisvictor3473]

On the other hand, if Pilaf hadn't used the Black Star Dragon Balls, maybe they wouldn't have used the DB in such short succession, and cracking them open.

[@sumeracarnatia6997]

@@louisvictor3473 I’m not sure that’s how that works. During the Baby Arc, the only time they used Dragon Balls were the Black Star ones and Namekian ones. I could believe that the former affected the regular Dragon Balls in some way when they were used twice, but I don’t believe that’s what the narrative tells us.

[@jaybee27D]

Goku didn’t get SSJ4 as a result of any of Baby’s actions though. it was simply a deus ex machina power up that Elder Kai introduced once he noticed Goku was struggling with a new opponent. i’m sure that if Goku jumped straight into the shadow dragons then Elder Kai still would’ve helped him gain the form.

[@EmeralBookwise]

Argument for GT not even having separate arcs and all just being one big cohesive story. To be clear, not an argument I'd in any way agree with, but it's an argument I think someone could reasonably make.

[@AstraFulminous]

Oh I'm sure they would have surpassed their limits somehow. They do so consistently enough. One could also argue that it just might not have happened in the same way. Noticing the Dragon Balls cracked versus being forced to use them might have avoided trying to do so ala some investigation. Dende might have even remade them

[@ShinobiPXO]

You know what they should have done? Have Android 17 keep his barrier technique and have that be upgraded to absorb energy for him, rather than just him tanking blasts on purpose. It at least would be a little less obvious That at least would be a more plausible reason for Goku not figuring out that Super 17 was absorbing energy, since Goku had never seen Android 17 before, so he wouldn't know how his barrier technique even worked.

[@Googaliemoogalie]

They were going for nostalgia rather than creativity though, but that's a good implement. I think that barrier should be used more, like how they did in Super. #17 can ram it into people and brings it up a lot more, which is better

[@roronoapedro]

God I know it's not the main point of the episode but the idea that everything from Raditz - Freeza is one arc feels like someone telling me that all of Star Wars is "one arc" because the same names keep being mentioned.

[@kinggoldark3853]

What's especially lazy about Goku using the 10x Kamehameha for no other reason that it's his "strongest technique" is that we have a direct analog in the 22nd Budokai. Tenshinhan demonstrates the ability to nullify/reflect the Kamehameha, making it completely useless against him. When the arena is destroyed, the characters wonder if Goku has some sort of "super" Kamehameha that will be effective, and Muten Roshi says the Kamehameha won't work no matter how strong it is. So when Goku uses the Kamehameha to propel himself instead, it's not only a clever subversion of expectations, but also a demonstration of how far Goku's come in adapting to his opponents. His stupidity here reads as nothing more than padding for time.

[@GribbleGob]

imagine how hard he could have hit 17 if he used 10x to launch himself for a strike.

[@mistre_aphera]

He did use it to overcharge 17 though. Mu was worried about the outcome.

[@dahakaguardianofthetimelin4780]

DB/DBZ Goku: "I've seen this trick already. It won't work on me twice!" DBGT Goku: "I've seen this trick already. It will be super effective against me when you use it against me in the future!"

[@beneil2]

wow DBGT Goku is more stupid an othere Goku I know.

[@oxcare5]

Very interesting video. Reading the title, I thought the discussion was going to be about whether or not all of GT could be considered one story, though the discussion was rather interesting still.

[@The_Ninja_Tree]

there's *a lot* of episodes you're missing. genuinely recommend this guys videos they are excellent in quality

[@oxcare5]

@@The_Ninja_Tree I have watched them all, I just fall into the category that thinks all of GT could be considered a single arc, and my comment was more about me having assumptions based on the title. You could even check when I posted the original comment

[@CarlosJimenez-pz1dq]

@@The_Ninja_Tree nah hes is a stupid dbs fanboy i wont watch his videos

[@justinarzola4584]

Black star and baby arc's are technically one story as one leads into the other, same with the Super 17 and Shadow Dragon Saga,so GT actually has two big Saga's instead of four.

[@GribbleGob]

the arc that shows you can't rely on nostalgia alone to make a story memorable

[@Akaketsugami]

Crazy that they didnt learn from that and did a whole series like that later on

[@Darkflo23]

Yeah , the whole of GT is like that. Instead of opening the universe like Super did, GT only made it smaller, with only Goku mattering.

[@Akaketsugami]

@@Darkflo23 you reached a level of cope that I honestly respect and admire, keep speaking your truth lil bro

[@Darkflo23]

@@Akaketsugami Not sure why you think i'm coping. Having rewatched both series last year for a marathon with friends, i can honnestly say that GT is shit 90% of the time, with it's obssession with Goku and the Earth , while Super not only introduced a lot of fun characters, expanded the DB universe with the introduction of other universes, and gods, but also allowed other characters to shine.

[@thefunnyultra7guy237]

​@@Darkflo23Why did DBZ's universe need to become even bigger when it was already bloated beyond all reason?

[@terabytewarrior2019]

Gonna say this now just in case this gets mentioned at the end of the next arc; 17 actually does get resurrected by Shenlong along with Kulilin and everyone else. Apparently there was even a whole scene of him being shown brought back to life written for the last episode but it was cut at the last minute.

[@jaybee27D]

do you have a source on this?

[@dieslley8648]

Dragon Ball GT DVD Box: Dragon Box GT “Dragon Book” (15 June 2005)

[@SaiyanPodcast]

I find myself waiting on these videos very often, Good work mistare!

[@PrimeroJinJusuke]

The Perfect Guide was divided into two parts. Part 1 is the Baby arc, which is 2/3 of the series, and Part 2 is the Super No. 17 and Evil Dragon arcs, the last third of the series. In official media, Super No. 17 is always treated as one of three main villains, standing alongside Super Baby 2 and Super Yixinglong at the top of all GT villains. Since Super No. 17 is never treated as a sub-boss in media, it’s safe to say that the Super No. 17 arc is its own arc. Compare that to Raditz who is always treated as a sub-boss rather than a big boss character.

[@TragicKF]

This is kinda silly because if you look at a lot of DBZ media The 3 main villains are always Freeza, Cell and Majin Boo. Vegeta is very normally left out of the conversation. Official sources also separates the Red Ribbon Army arc from the Baba tournament arc and there are so many other examples. Official sources can be wrong.

[@PrimeroJinJusuke]

@@TragicKF But within the context of GT, it’s true. Vegeta is not always forgotten as the main villain. The video games still treat him as one. The cover art of DBZ: Idainaru Dragon Ball Densetsu has all four of them.

[@TragicKF]

@@PrimeroJinJusuke the games are just one aspect. I’m talking official material in general. And again. My point is official material has been wrong before.

[@PrimeroJinJusuke]

@@TragicKF They might have been wrong before, but that doesn’t mean they’re wrong all the time. Within the context of GT, you have the choice of either only Baby and Yixinglong being GT‘s only main villains or all three of them. Is Super No. 17 a main villain? Yes. He’s the main threat of his own story arc that is almost stand-alone, he’s not connected to the other two villains, and his motivation differs greatly from Baby and Yixinglong. Baby wants to rule the universe, Yixinglong wants to destroy the universe, but Super No. 17 only cares about being the strongest fighter of the universe.

[@TragicKF]

@@PrimeroJinJusuke of course. And my choice is Baby and Yi Xing Long being the two big bads of GT. And as for Super 17 having different motivations. There’s a bunch of Evil Dragons that don’t share the same motivations either. Either they want to destroy the universe, stay in their own town doing small time crime, or just want to challenge themselves against stronger opponents.

[@YourGuyAlex]

I always tilted my head when people broke freeza into Namek arc Ginyu force arc and Freeza arc

[@TheAzulmagia]

Blame Funimation for that one; they had a lot of weird divisions in arcs. I remember the four or so episodes where Future Trunks shows up to kill Frieza and warn everyone about the Androids was called "The Future Trunks Saga".

[@SpeedPunch]

Because of dvds​@@TheAzulmagia

[@YourGuyAlex]

@@TheAzulmagia the Raditz saga I also Remember Didn’t they also break up Raditz saga Nappa saga and vegeta saga 😂😂

[@The_Ninja_Tree]

I am honestly shocked your videos aren't more popular, there's gotta be something to get more eyeballs on this channel. you deserve the views and subs homie

[@Ineedgames]

How about we teach Dragon Ball fans to be literate?

[@Blasckk]

@@Ineedgames Dragon Ball fans are literate... most can read almost all the short words in the subs

[@spartanq7781]

It's the algorithm unfortunately.​@@Ineedgames

[@eduardopantoja9115]

@@Blasckk They can read. it's just that they don't read the manga and perfer dub

[@mr.personalspace7831]

12:37 CDI Zelda is always in fashion. Everything aside from the gameplay, of course.

[@UnlimitedRadioButNoSoap]

i'm gonna break the camel's back real quick: we should consider it one arc because it's funny to do so

[@nia1waifu107]

After the Evil Dragon Arc do you plan to cover Yo Son Goku & His Friends Return!, DB Kai or the film Battle Of Gods???

[@kaidenjohnson2624]

Probably yo son Goku and battle of gods

[@Jotari]

It'll absolutely b Yo Son Goky and His Friends (except Tien and Chaotzu) Return!

[@ghoulchan7525]

@@Jotari apparently Tien wasn't in that special out of respect for the passing of his old voice actor.

[@brandonlyon730]

The live action Dragon Ball Evolution movie would be interesting to be seen torn apart with a more analysis point of view.

[@Jotari]

@@ghoulchan7525 What's Chaotzu's excuse?

[@mechajay3358]

The Super 17 Arc is such a misshapen mess that its hard to tell whether it should be a standalone arc or a a lead-in to the Evil Dragon Arc.

[@TragicKF]

Hey that’s me. I agree with Goku taking too long. But I always saw that Goku’s line about x10 Kamehameha being his strongest technique is only mentioned exactly because overloading him was his plan. Dr Mu’s line about even being surprised at Super 17 being able to absorb it all does seem like that’s what the writer of that episode was going for. Ironically making the Dragon Fist part of GT’s continuity does kinda mess with the whole thing.

[@MistareFusion]

'Tis you! Thank you! The reason it being his strongest technique is brought up at all is because Mu directly asks Goku if he did that on purpose (to try to overload #17), which Goku denies, instead saying it's because it's his strongest technique. At least, that's how I read the exchange.

[@TragicKF]

@@MistareFusion I made sure to rewatch it before I commented before I looked stupid like the Goten and Gohan comparison. I get where you’re coming from and I think the delivery of the dialogue is just wonky. Because after Goku says “that’s my strongest technique”, Dr Mu responds with “aha I see, even I’m surprised my Super 17 could handle it” as if he thinks that’s what Goku meant Ngl the dialogue in that episode is pretty bad on rewatch

[@MistareFusion]

Yeah, the translation is worded fairly ambiguously. I can see it being interpreted either way.

[@ladyzeon7747]

@@MistareFusionI feel like that’s GT dialogue in a nutshell, every plot point is worded so vaguely that you could argue either way if something makes sense or is completely stupid.

[@theinvestigativemillennial9381]

How exactly does the Dragon Fist make a mess of continuity though? I mean movie 13 can fit pretty easily into the timeline so honestly I dont see a problem.

[@animefan77]

10:21- Super 17: I have this odd feeling in my ear that says I should follow orders. Dr Myu: then why are you killing me- (realizes) oh that’s what Gero meant.

[@olserknam]

This arc made me understand that Tien's Kikoho is not some mysterious name in Japanese but just a generic name for an energy blast. Because during the final fight, Mu can't shut up about "kikoha blasts". IIRC he mostly says it to praise 17's power, but he also might've used that to refer to Goku's blasts on some occasions.

[@frappompi]

I remember listening to a kaizenshuu podcast where Herms briefly explained the difference between Kikoha as generic ki blasts and Kikoho meaning something more like Ki blast cannon or something like that, but I don't remember exactly

[@AdaptiveReasoning]

I'd like to argue that it is a separate arc only because when I watched GT for the first time on DVD I either didn't have or skipped the DVDs with the arc on it. I went from Baby to Evil Dragons and I didn't even notice. If I saw inconsistentcies, like Krilin not being alive, I chalked them up to missing something or the show not making sense again. I didn't even know this arc was a thing for years!

[@PokeHokage]

Looking at the dates, I was born around the time this arc was coming to a close. May 26th 1997, heard you mention 27 years and had to check 😅

[@shmikex]

The biggest flaw of the upcoming Evil Dragon arc is about the same as the flaw from the Black Star Dragon Balls arc. The fact that they have a large amount of characters except only a few (Goku and Pan mostly) are actually trying to resolve the conflict initially. For the Black Star Dragon Balls arc it made no sense why only ONE crew went into Space, where Vegeta and Gohan, veterans of space travel (the former especially), should have gone in one or two more ships. Imagine an arc of Gohan and Piccolo traveling space together. Imagine Vegeta dragging Bra to space with him and having to revisit planets he once attacked in his earlier days. For this upcoming arc, why not have multiple teams going after the Evil Dragons? There is even less of an excuse since the action is all happening on Earth. Imagine the teamups to get the Dragon Balls. Goku and Goten, Trunks and Vegeta, Gohan and Pan, all of which serve to add to each character's journey. And yes have 18 team up with someone as well, like maybe the humans. In the Namek arc, the main players on Namek were going because they were directly affected by the previous arc. Krillin felt he failed his fellow humans, Gohan felt guilt about Piccolo, and Bulma has been the tech support all along and had to watch Yamcha die.

[@iug5672]

I like how lacking Super 17's death is that I spaced out for a few seconds and completely missed that him being blasted again but with a hole in his chest meant that he was dead.

[@Acerthorn]

Let's also bear in mind that, much like the ending to this episode, the Frieza Saga also ended with ... the shocking return of Frieza as a cyborg! And yet, nobody seems to consider those to be the same story arc! Clearly, the mere fact that the episode ends with a cliffhanger doesn't automatically mean it's not the end of the story arc. Meanwhile, the King Piccolo Saga and the 23rd Tournament Saga are universally considered to be two separate story arcs, despite them having effectively the same villain (as long as you see PIccolo Jr. as a reincarnation and not a son). So the mere fact that the Frieza Saga had Vegeta as a recurring character doesn't mean it's not a separate story arc, either.

[@Unknownslenderman]

And speaking further of cliffhanger episodes, the 22nd tournament arc ends with the death of krillin and having the epilogue of said arc become the setup of the King Piccolo Arc, yet once again these are seen as separate arcs

[@Acerthorn]

@@Unknownslenderman Good observation

[@sparkshock7940]

I think they should count as one continuous story just based on the fact that the Super 17 arc is extremely short (barely longer than the episodes focusing on the conflict with Raditz) and that it ends with the lingering plot thread of cracked Dragon Balls. It doesn’t even feel like a first act it just feels like an unnecessarily long intro. “Here’s the bad guy the gang are fighting until the real plot starts!” It’s like the opening to Avengers: Age of Ultron, the Avengers are fighting Hydra until suddenly Ultron shows up now he’s the main bad guy. And since GT has a history of shifting the plot from one conflict to another making them blend together (Black Star Dragon Ball hunt arc and Baby arc) it’s likely the writers used the same tactic here.

[@haloeightYT]

16:15 That is honestly so true lmao I don't think I ever thought about it but him fixing his hair really is his only character trait. But you know it's one I can appreciate. Seeing his long straight hair always getting messed up while he's flying around and fighting tickles my brain in a way animation seldom does

[@keykanon_7814]

This arc has real mid DBZ movie energy.

[@joseurbina3835]

It might as well be a Movie rather than an actual short Story Arc.

[@leafbladie]

I like how kid can refer to both location and quality here

[@asherzerbib3461]

Underrated comment. But still, the mid movies look like masterpieces compared to this arc. I dare say all of Super's arcs are superior.

[@InfernoCleric384]

@@asherzerbib3461 "coughs in Resurrection F"

[@asherzerbib3461]

@@InfernoCleric384 stand by that Resurrection F at least is a cohesive story which makes intellectual sense which is still more than Super 17 can say.

[@HakureiShrineTemple]

Goku's "Maybe if I shake him some more..." towards his knocked out son with broken bones in DBZ Abridged sounds less dumb than "I'll use my strongest Ki attack against this enemy who has been absorbing all my Ki attacks!" in "canon" DBGT.

[@spyroG3]

I never considered the possibility that this story arc could be part of the next one, huh. Episode 46 really has some nice backgrounds, my favorite is the one with the forest near the ocean, really cool. 13:41 Videl without pantyhose, oops. Also, Episode 47 is Bra's last appearance in this series, in 48, they completely forgot about her, which is hilarious. Great video!

[@sumeracarnatia6997]

From what I understand, there’s a part of the fight where Goku aims a Kamehameha downward that would’ve hit the Earth had Super 17 not absorbed it, which I’ve heard be used to call out Goku’s stupidity. I’m just perplexed at that statement because it’s been shown Goku can steer his ki blasts. He made a Kamehameha move from in front of to behind King Piccolo and follow after Raditz.

[@DragonMasterGold]

One argument I would make for why this is very clear cut its own story arc, is contrasting it against other more thought out and plot focused stories. Where placing down plot hooks and threads to be later picked up and developed further is much more common, if not the default, for many non-Dragon Ball stories. Dragon Ball in contrast is done entirely by the seat of the creator’s pants (seemingly regardless of if it is Toriyama or not). But here we see very basic planting seeds that would be done in other stories, but it feels somewhat out of place because (primarily) the poor writing, but also because Dragon Ball usually doesn’t do things that way. Even looking at something like One Piece, there are obviously constant set ups being established just about every chapter. But when often when it comes to the end of an arc, there will be a much more direct set up for the next arc after the climax. Such as introducing the next villain as a player who helps wrap this current arc up -- who will be the next major threat of the next arc. And it kind of feels the same here. The Shadow Dragon aspect fully caps off and resolves this arc, but it also directly serves as the main storyline for the coming arc. Especially, under the context that they are “the” villain. That when the Heroes believe everything is going to work out and finally have everything resolved. We have the final villain appearing and ruining that idea, before kickstarting off an entire new problem. Kind of like Tambourine (and King Piccolo) at the end of the 22nd World Martial Arts Tournament. The villains proactively taking action when the heroes do not expect it and instantly kicking off a new arc. At least that is my perspective. And I feel overall the strongest argument for it. (Although, I could see a version of the Super 17 Arc that if planned out and wrapped in characters earlier on could have served more as a lead into a bigger arc. Especially, with the theme of past decisions coming back to haunt characters. Vegeta having an emotional scene with Nappa. Maybe a Radditz return? Even as far as the Dragon Balls being worked in earlier. Perhaps, something like instead of new characters, the Balls relating to and fusing with Characters related to the Wish that made the darkness. Which could very directly have something like a powered up Radditz come back and have a real character moment with their brother. Perhaps bringing back a powered up Cell and having that be a situation for Gohan to handle. That if they are going to have the theme of overreliance on Dragon Balls correcting past mistakes, right after resurrecting characters for nostalgia, you might as well use the two together. We could have even seen the Evil Buu come back and get an ounce of development for Uub? Maybe commentary on if it even was a good idea to bring back a force like Kid Buu, even under the context of “being a good guy this time”. And Uub having to face what was his past essence in a way and needing to define who he truly is now. But who are we kidding? Uub can’t be allowed in the story).

[@willowbarrelmaker8269]

Not to diminish the rest of GT dissection, but I am looking forward to all of the interstitial content between this and super, if you do end up covering it It’s a very interesting era for Dragon Ball imo

[@Plasma_Fuse]

I'd say it's a set up arc that commits the bare minimum to setting things up. The minimum here being cut aways to cracking dragon balls, which don't relate to the actual Super 17 plot, other than the fact they need to be used after all the chaos. That's the only thing that connects it, so I'd say it's a standalone arc with a transition to the next one. It's not like when the plot starts focusing on Baby, but the dark star dragon balls are still being collected, then they get brought back to Dende, then used by Baby, then the arc ends with everyone evacuating earth as a consequence. The dragon balls in that case are very relevant in the middle of the story and not totally in the background. Let's say the dragon balls started cracking and then suddenly hell opens up as a result of that, and maybe during all the action of this arc we cut to the dragon balls getting gathered and characters question what's happening. Maybe Bulma's running tests on them or something. If at least something was being done with them like that, then I'd find it much more believable as the start of the Shadow Dragon Saga. Also unrelated to all that, I'm glad Android 18 gets to do at least SOMETHING in the arc about her brother. Since it's GT I had zero faith she'd even show up at all lol...

[@MistareFusion]

That's the thing, though. You say that "if the Dragon Balls started cracking and then suddenly hell opens up as a result of that," but that is what the show says happens. That's the whole basis for the argument that it's one arc. No, it doesn't focus on it the way you suggest. Hell, it's not even stated until the last episode, but that connection is there.

[@Plasma_Fuse]

​@@MistareFusion My point is the fact that it's retconned in at the end makes the connection feel like it's dangling by a thread. With Freeza and the Saiyan arc, the arcs have different goals but are still intertwined due to the relation between Freeza and the Saiyan race, so I could see both sides of the argument of whether or not that's one arc. Shenron saying hell opened up due to the dragon balls feels like the equivalent of Freeza having never heard of Saiyans at all, but then King Cold randomly revealing that Freeza did in fact destroy planet Vegeta. Sure the dragon balls opening hell up technically adds a connection to recontextualize things, but it's a pretty late half baked one that doesn't really add much to what's already happened.

[@MistareFusion]

I definitely agree it feels half-baked. I just don't know if it feeling half-baked is enough for me to make the strong determination that they don't belong together. It was just enough to allow me to make a lukewarm decision that they don't belong together.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Super 17 feels like its own thing., rather than a Saga harbinger like Raditz

[@gazeboist4535]

I think it's interesting to consider the arc division question in light of an aborted "Great Saiyaman" arc, and the question of where exactly the line is between the Great Demon King Piccolo arc and the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc. I don't know exactly what to *do* with those considerations, but they are noteworthy as other points of fuzziness.

[@DBAWFUL]

Super 17 LOOKED super cool though

[@joseurbina3835]

But yet, 17 was still done absolutely Dirty.

[@Zacman1123]

Yeah as much as I like GT, even I can't defend Goku pulling a Vegeta while fighting Super 17.

[@mechajay3358]

You can say whatever about Goku's average intelligence, but when it comes to fighting, he's an expert and a pro. So it really shouldn't take him the "whole episode" to figure out that Super 17 can absorb energy after constantly throwing ki attacks at him.

[@EmperorGladiatuss]

At least this arc gave me my favorite DB technique Final Shine Attack and one of my favorite designs in Super 17

[@supermariohack3218]

Can't believe it's already time for the Shadow Dragons...

[@TheAzulmagia]

The Pokémon comparison was apt, if more appropriate for Generation III and onward. There are some Pokémon that have the passive abilities like Water Absorb, Sap Sipper, Lightningrod, etc. that make them immune to certain types of moves or gives them health restoration.

[@mr.personalspace7831]

Most of the time, it doesn't even just make them immune- it makes it actively beneficial for them, buffing or healing them.

[@Jotari]

Water Absorb would be the most apt example as it literally restores HP.

[@theradionicrevival8068]

It just sent me reeling. Cause growing up I learned pretty quick how much the world would hate how kid me played Pokémon games For the longest time I didn’t understand typing advantages or anything so my strat was basically accidentally overleveling my starter and just flattening anything regardless of type disadvantage. A starter at lvl 30 to 40 really early on because it’s the main mon I used. And the rest often being 10 to 18 and staying there for a long time. I got my ass beat a lot, but the crazy how it kept working after awhile Kid me probably just had a lot of patience

[@Jotari]

@@theradionicrevival8068 If it helps, that's how speed runners do it. Well, they obviously still pay attention to type weaknesses, but super over levelling a single Pokemon is the way to go.

[@metal87power]

funny enough, goku kept feeding android 19 caressly even knowing they can absorb energy. as if he couldn't grasp the concept until heartattack

[@KINGBADASS100]

It was pretty cool to hear you mention Pokemon. Would like to see you do a video on it at some point.

[@MsDarkz123]

Being fair to the Pokémon Analogy sometimes you'll be better off using your stronger move even if it's resisted damage though it's usually because of some external factors like abilities or items. Yet there are cases were a certain ability provides total inmunities so yeah in that case it would be pretty similar to the 17 example, and Goku should stop being so unconscious and healing him hahahaha.

[@shiroamakusa8075]

Imagine if the actual plot of this arc had been the villain (NOT Gero and Myu) trying to tamper with the dragonballs to figure out how they work. The whole "making too many good wishes on the Dragonballs causes evil dragons to appear" never made any sense to begin with. One, those are Dende's dragonballs who wouldn't have anything to do with the wishes made on Kami's dragonballs and if you ignore that we have two, Kami commented at one point that he didn't want to make new dragonballs because people constantly abused them for evil, so the karmic scales should have been even at worst. But if the new villain (heck, why not use Dr Wheelow if it has to be a mad-scientist type) cracked them open to obtain their reality-altering powers that would be a better reason for the evil dragons to exist.

[@MistareFusion]

If I could just correct you on one thing: while Dende makes significant changes to those Dragon Balls when he takes them over, they are the same Dragon Balls that his predecessor created. Dende does not create Earth's Dragon Balls from scratch. He reactivates the existing ones. But I very much agree that this would have been more interesting (and make more sense) if the doctors screwing with dimensions had screwed up the Dragon Balls.

[@DonWeaselYeehawEdition]

You uploaded just before my drive to work you absolute LEGEND 🙌👏

[@rodthedigger2902]

Great video!

[@shmikex]

16:00 I just realized Goten and Trunks shooting a random blast into an alley and blowing up 19 makes no sense because 1. I doubt in their non-SSJ form they are much stronger than beginning of Android Arc SSJ Goku or Vegeta 2. 19's hands are still (presumably) intact so theoretically he could absorb the blasts. If anything it could have been Major Metallitron who doesn't have absorption abilities.

[@TheAzulmagia]

To be fair, they can still blow 19 up with ki if they catch him off guard. If he fails to absorb it, he's still vulnerable. See the Big Bang Attack.

[@kevinlee9929]

But Goku and Vegeta both handly beat 19 (Goku only ultimately losing cause of the virus). Plus they both attacked him at once. Makes sense that he would be easily destroyed.

[@trentonbates3114]

Your rant in the beginning of the video about the characters doing the same thing sums up my feelings about super. It seems like every arc goku vegeta get stronger they fight the big bad they fuse or fight each other with a little bit of frieza on the side. EVERYTIME!

[@androidsenpai1462]

I know you don’t typically care for discussing the powerscaling aspects of Dragon Ball in this series, but one thing that disappoints me about this arc is how the Dragon Team fighters are handled. Everybody who fights Super 17 bar Goku is nothing compared to him, even the likes of Boo-merged Oob and frickin’ Vegeta, yet Goku in one of his lowest transformations is able to go blow for blow with him. I get that this is Goku’s story, but I always hated how everybody was just some chump compared to him in this series. Especially with that cute little moment of him and Vegeta staring down at the beginning of this arc. Yeah, some rival Goku has, am I right?

[@DonWeaselYeehawEdition]

14:42 holdup, I actually need this shirt 🤣🤣🤣 (I am a chronic leg day skipper...)

[@Keiyon95]

It's crazy how we managed to see Ginyu out of all people getting judged again in Enma Daios, it kind of begs the question on what happens to body swappers when they die regarding the anime continuity

[@olserknam]

Since Ginyu's a villain, he'd likely become a puff of smoke regardless of what body he died in.

[@Keiyon95]

@@olserknam True; but for some reason the anime disregards that. Granted the other world tournament took place before Toriyama established that rule but even after that it's still disregard

[@shmeebs387]

The reason it's hard to distinguish between the Super 17 and Shadow Dragon sagas is because GT just does a terrible job of giving characters arcs and teaching them lessons. Characters are written so inconsistently. At the end of the say, it's a battle shonen show. The "sagas" are distinguished by their final boss, and Super 17 was a final boss in his own right. He didn't really feed into the next villain in any way that related to his own story. Same reason why the Great Saiyaman arc is considered a part of the Buu saga. There was no villain for Gohan to overcome in that story. It was all setup for Buu. Super 17 didn't really set up the Shadow Dragons. His antics just gave them a reason to use the messed up dragon balls. It's a circumstantial connection, not a story connection imo.

[@SpeedPunch]

Thanks

[@TVkingOmega]

At best, AT BEST I think the Shadow Dragons arc could also be knocked out in 4-5 parts, maybe just 3 if you’re cheeky about it. Mainly because the Shadow Dragons are all basically the exact same villain up until we get to the Fire and Ice twins.

[@MistareFusion]

To my surprise, I've actually discovered a lot of things I want to talk about.

[@nora-yc6fi]

I think the nostalgia coming in so heavily is meant to be part of the lesson about relying on the dragon balls to often Most of the villains shown are in some way tied to the Dragon Balls. (weather they showed up searching for them or their actions led to the DB's being used to fix their destruction) They also keep showing the Dragon Balls and how they have something wrong with them. The villains then destroy more things as they come back and end up killing someone we care about (of course it had to be Krillin again...) thusly warranting another use of the DB's. It makes the shadow dragons innevitable as there would be no way to stop all those villains without destroying alot on earth. To me it adds another level to Shenrons final message, it wasn't just the heroes overusing them, the existence of the DB's themselves attract all sorts of bad types and due to those actions the DB's would be used over and over. Removing them from this plane of existence is the only way to ensure a lasting peace so that no one, good or bad, will seek them out ever again. That's my thoughts on how these arcs tie together The Super 17 arc focuses on the bad associated the the balls and the Shadow Dragons focus on the good associated with them. (I definitely could've worded this better and condensed it to make it more legible/digestible, I apologize for that.)

[@horaciosi]

(8:01) Nice to see the earlier works of Denis Villeneuve.

[@perturbedbatman2009]

I don’t know how bad the ratings were for this “arc”, but I guess that was part of the reason they rushed to end it and move on to the next story.

[@mechajay3358]

Super MVP 17 > GT Super 17

[@Jose-se9pu]

Goku was always dumb at everything except fighting, but here...they were like "lets make Goku dumb at literally everything". The animation is spectacular in these episodes, which make me even more mad seeing how, for some reason, they decided to force Goku being TFS levels of stupid to make Super 17 feel like a threat...and the sad part is, Goku in his SS1 form was wiping the floor with him, meaning Oob and Vegeta are actually weaker than...Redict. WTF.

[@SpeedPunch]

Thank you. People always say goku is dumb down in super when he's always been like that even in z.

[@Espurr.8]

Super and gt just have those arc that hurt my brain

[@magigackt]

In fact the cell saga has so little night that 24 hours pass without the sun going down and during one fight

[@Hydrogue]

Surprised you didn't mention the one last bit of nostalgia baiting in the arc: Goku landing the winning blow on (or through) Super 17 is framed like the defeat of Demon King Piccolo. For whatever reason.

[@animefan77]

10:49- if Goku can just use a Deus ex machina move in his base form, then why introduce SS4 at all. It’s like SS3 all over again. It’s only in the previous arc it finished off a major villain…as he was running away in a spaceship.

[@Hydrogue]

To try and artificially drum up some tension by having Goku appear to be on the back foot by losing SS4.

[@AmitCinematicUniverse]

These are two arcs.

[@esperderek5383]

This sort of plot beat, where an enemy is immune to the heroes technique and the hero KEEPS USING IT despite it being ineffective and the hero having a million other techniques they could rely on seems to pop up a LOT in various pieces of media.

[@dvader518]

What if Cell Max absorbed Super #17?

[@animefan77]

13:47- Smoke Shenron: you know what, screw you guys. You caused earth to blow up again and I actually liked Piccolo more than you screwups. I’m gonna summon the apocalypse with seven dragon demons because you end up causing it anyways with your blundering. Have fun you dimwits. Goku: oh seven dragons! Seven strong guys. Trunks: you know what? Have fun. I’m sitting this one out. I feel like it’s gonna be villain of the week heavy.

[@mitchfletcher2386]

So yeah...Black Smoke Shenron may very well be the actual Shenron, just filtered through corruption.

[@TylerCharlesFisher]

Goten: "Hey, seven big bads! Maybe we can each get a dragon to fight, and won't just be Dad and Vegeta who get to be the heroes!"

[@shmeebs387]

The fact that the Super 17 saga was shorter than the Garlic Jr. saga is hilarious. Also, Goku can absorb ki too apparently. He did it against Baby. He absorbed Baby's evil death ball thingy. So what makes Super 17 so uniquely dangerous?

[@Hydrogue]

Goku neutralised the Revenge Death Ball somehow, but there wasn't any visual indicator that it had made him stronger.

[@shmeebs387]

@@Hydrogue The visuals showed the energy of the ball going into Goku and then he used that energy to unleash a kamehameha. That's how Goku took out Great Ape Baby. Baby's Japanese line after Goku tanks it is "you mean you soaked up even the power of my Death Ball!?" And Goku says that there's "no way you can win now." NOW being the operative word now that Goku just soaked up (absorbed) Baby's energy from the attack.

[@akuji330]

The Super #17 is an arc I always forget that exist, and no wonder why when it's so short. I can only guess that the arc was going to be over but the writing was on the wall that the show was going to be canceled so they rushed it. A shame because I think it has potential if the writing is good and they had the time to develop it. Good video!

[@AnthonyRusso93]

I almost forgot clip shows were a thing. tbr when I found out the new episode was a clip show I was not happy. like what the hell I was looking forward to something new.

[@lordraiden7397]

Goku having the idea to overload 17 despite 17 fighting relative to him in his best form will never make sense

[@MariaYuri-qo8jy]

Maybe I am missing something but why do they think they can revive Kuririn with the earth's Dragon Balls if they don't grand the same wish twice? He already was brought back. They had to use namek's Dragon Balls for the other two times.

[@MsDarkz123]

Off-screen upgrade? Plothole? How did it went in the manga when they were trying to revive Goku at the end of the Cell arc? Was Shenlong capable or they suggest getting the Dragon Balls from Namek? I mean in the Buu arc it isn't stipulated Krilin revives from the Namek ones because he can no longer be brought back from the Earth ones... It just happens out of the obvious necessity of the whole Earth blowing up.

[@larrychilders6599]

I think Dende axed that part out

[@ChaoticStrike]

I’m surprised you didn’t bring it up, but even Dr Myuu brings up the fact that it’s an utterly stupid idea for Goku to attack Super 17 with his strongest attack so clearly the writers knew it was a bad plot point. So why make Goku an idiot for using it and waste the audience time in the first place?

[@moef8971]

5:50 “In the fight, Super 17 was so fast that Goku he couldn’t throw any punches. He used the Kai attack, knowing he could absorb it. He used the Kamehameha attack 10 times. This was Goku’s second strongest attack, but Super 17 absorbed it. Goku was surprised, as this attack was supposed to kill him.”

[@Morgil27]

Regarding the whole Android/Cell arc thing, I always saw it as one larger arc that can be split into two smaller sub-arcs. One Piece does the same thing all the time.

[@Devimon4000]

I think what’s going on is something that DB simply never did much of, highly serialized storytelling. Sort of a soap opera structure and one that rose up in comics in the 80s and 90s before dying off for more trade story arch based structure. (Also shows up in Arthurian lore in the middle ages and other chivlaric romances were its called interlacing) Here there is often an A plot and then a B plot and maybe a C plot. But rather than the B plot always being there to comment on or support the A plot its is instead set up to become the new A plot. Then C plot might become the new B plot and so on. Its not always that clean. Sometimes the B plot is just there to comment on the A plot but the C plot will become the new A plot. Or the C plot will take over as the A plot but the B plot will keep humming along and then become the A plot after the C plot is wrapped up. Or the B plot will stay a B plot but run though several A plots. The result is where one story begins and the other ends, is messy. Example, not a super famous one but one I’m familiar with. Marv Wolfman’s run in Green Lantern in the early 80s. The first three issues are about Hal need to overcome Dr Polaris. But also before we even hit there we learn something is going wrong with Ferris Aircraft likely sabotage. A new character has something he’s hiding and in short order Hal’s love internist, Carol, has her parents kidnapped and then later she is as well. As the Dr Polaris stuff goes on Ferris Aircraft suffers even more. After Dr Polaris is defeated Hal starts looking for Carol, only to discover the new character, Bruce Gordon is Eclipso and starts to fight him. Only to get pulled into the future for two issues where he stops an invasion of Earth in two different time periods. Sent back to the present he spends two issues fighting Eclipso during which Carol’s situation is learned more about and Ferris Aircraft is bombed, and a congressman starts trying to get info on GL and who he might really be. Finally Hal is able to track down Carol and her parents and save them. But it turns out the kidnapper has a vendetta with the Ferris family that he has now passed to his sons, including the congress man. And it goes on form there. We can argue the overall story only ends when Carol is recused, since most plot lines opened up when Wolfman first joined are wrapped up by that point. But not all, the sabotage and Ferris financial issues will continue. Or we could say there was a bunch of smaller stories connected by ongoing subplots, but how are we to take the Eclipso stuff? It starts, stops for Hal’s time travel adventures and then picks up. So is it all one story? But the Eclipso stuff has no real effect on his adventures in the futures so those feel like one story that interrupts a different story. Neat story lines break down under highly serialized storytelling really. Which can be seen as messy, poorly made or just a complicated structure.

[@BagOfMagicFood]

We saw that in that Sailor Moon show!

[@kaialone]

I feel if the Super 17 arc was actually good, it'd serve as a nice prologue to the Evil Dragon arc, even if none of the Super 17 arc major players kept being crucial Cause im concept I like the idea of the Evil Dragon's arc being just another DB arc ending as we've come to know, but when we try to wrap up everything with the wishes, the DBs lock up and say "You've done this way too much" Really the Super 17 arc feels kinda like (ugh) filler so we can have a clean "DB arc ending" to bounce the Evil Dragon arc off of- and the only reason they didnt go into it right from Baby is cause it'd have been too exhausting both for us and the cast, plus that arc was already juggling drama about sets of Dragon Balls... So Super 17 feels almost like a kinda fake-out arc, almost, just there to put stuff into place for the real arc I guess "this would be better if it was good" is a bit of a no-brainer also. But it just goes with the theme of like, I don't think any of the concepts of GT are fundamentally broken (well Super 17 kinda is) just executed most unfortunately

[@Aust51989]

This is why I think the Evil Shenlong Arc should have been written in a way that the DB’s cracked as a result of Piccolo and Dende making a portal to Hell. It would make more sense if the original creator of the DB (Kami through Piccolo) and the current god (Dende) were playing with negative energy that caused the DB to crack instead of coincidence like the series had it.

[@mifaro2255]

The moment Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan 4 in this fight, there is not a single animation of him performing hand to hand combat. Against a character who can absorb Ki. It's implied that he tried after using instant transmission (which is impossible on an android that doesn't have a Ki signature) but he never readies any punch or kick. How disappointing can you get ?

[@Abdul54cp]

Correction to pokemon, Water resists water, it's not immune. You can kill a water type with just water moves, even if it'd be stronger to use a grass move. However the analogy does work if you try hitting a ghost type with a fighting move.

[@rjd-kh8et]

Also, Pokémon with the ability Water Absorb are healed by Water-type moves. Abilities didn't exist in Pokémon Red and Blue, though.

[@Abdul54cp]

@@rjd-kh8et Yea the analogy works perfectly if MistareFusion went over an immunity instead of a resistance. Because in this case, Goku would've definitely just killed Super 17 with a very strong kamehameha

[@Kolbatsu]

You'd think Goku would know that Super 17 can absorb ki after seeing his hands and remembering that 19 did the same thing. And that could make the fight more interesting. But nah more ki attacks.

[@darksynergy9688]

This reminded me of when the rowdy ruff boys finally made their return in the power puff girls,the boys were reincarnated by Him who brags about how much better they are compared to their first appearance so the girls decide to fight em head on and when they fails,the girls immediately try to resort to the kissing method they used to destroy the boys like they did the last time,instead of the boys being harmed by the kisses it instead makes them stronger,the girls take way too long to catch onto it so much so to where the boys have to spell it out to them. That episode is so frustrating to get through. The episode is called the boys are back in town.

[@mitchfletcher2386]

Personally, I hated their redesigns. Plus...for all of Him's talk about how he made them better, he also made them much more stupid.

[@darksynergy9688]

I loved the boys redesigns, especially Butch he went to Vegeta's barber & yes they were very stupid but the girls being stupid is what did it for me.

[@shmikex]

Dumb question: Why would they even try to assemble the EARTH dragon balls, since Krillin has already been brought back to life by them? Did Dende get rid of the multi-resurrection abilities? We know the inability to revive people already revived by the Earth dragon balls got carried over from Kami to Dende, seeing that Goku didn't get revived by them after the Cell games. So why try to use them on Krillin?

[@MistareFusion]

It's not a dumb question at all. The answer is... yeah...

[@StuffFilms]

Yess

[@YossarianVanDriver]

Of course, finding cool shirt rips like Goku's hot means I /also/ find 18's here hot, but again, in a cool way. It's not cheesecake, it's beefcake, or something? She just looks so awesome here.

[@alphamarigi]

It would funny to play a Pokémon game where all Water type Pokémon have the water absord ability

[@PegasusPablo]

Ryuuken? Is it also ascending?

[@WolfXGamerful]

Hot Take: The MistareFusion Indecision Arc had a more solid foundation and conclusion than the Super 17 Arc.

[@otaking3582]

While I would say "Technically you could defeat a Water type Pokemon with Water Gun depending on your stats", I then remembered that the Water Absorb ability exists, allowing certain Pokemon to regain HP when Water attacks are used against it. Of course, Squirtle can't have Water Absorb without hacking, but still.

[@Abdul54cp]

The better example is using fighting moves against ghost types

[@UltraKintaro]

Between this arc and the Tournament of Power, I've always wondered why both moments of characters self-destructing and somehow just not self-destructing in their self-destruction involve No. 17. And both of those arcs I think are the worst of their respective series, which makes it clearly No. 17's fault. (Of course I'm not counting No. 16's failed self-destruct here because he couldn't make it to the exploding stage.)

[@lexzeyfercronus]

People complaining about super's goku for being dumb but praising dbgt goku for being "bad ass" must be on to some type of strong addictive substances,gt goku is outright the stupidest hes ever been in the entirety of the dragon ball franchize,i dare say is the only iteration of his character where hes genuenly stupid.

[@kuribo04]

About the A-18 ripping shirt thing, or other instances of Goku or whoever doing it. I don't think the work can really dictate what is sexy or not to tge audience, nor do I think sexy stuff cancels out drama.

[@MistareFusion]

I'm not claiming otherwise. Individuals are free to find appeal, sexual or otherwise, in whatever they'd like. But it's easy to pick up on how stories communicate to us in order to impart a certain message. There is a very different framing between, say, Goku ripping off his shirt as he prepares to fight harder versus Kuririn pulling down Blooma's shirt to show off her boobs. I don't think anyone would argue that those are communicating anything even remotely similar even though the strict mechanical action is almost identical. Intent and framing aren't everything, but they do matter.

[@kuribo04]

​@@MistareFusionYeah those examples you mention are very different, but someone could find Goku's body or his action attractive too. The difference is the dramatic purpose, which the Bulma scene doesn't have, and the fact that Goku doesn't have sex on his mind, while in the other scene the characters do. But I'm sure there's people who think Goku is sexy and still think scenes of him ripping his clothes off are also badass. I think a good example of an extreme case is Kill la Kill (which happens to be my pfp), where action scenes are very much about the characters' bodies, but some very strong drama is often reached. In fact sexy stuff can often enhance coolness or something imo. Anyway just an observation/something I wanted to comment on. Not complaining or anything. I'm a huge fan and have been for years!

[@savannahsand4066]

A story having a cliff hanger ending doesn't make it all one story arc. There is a clear separation from this and the Shadow Dragon stuff that comes later. Nobody would argue that the Frieza and Cell Saga are the same arc despite the later ending with Mecha Frieza's arrival towards Earth. People wouldn't claim that the 22nd Budokai and King Piccolo Arc is all one story despite the former ending with Krillin's death at the hands of an antagonist in the later etc.

[@saiyan4414]

I still think it was a missed opportunity to pull the currently dead 17 from the other timeline infuse them, I know that would have been still super weird and a little fanficky, but honestly I think it would've made more sense than this.

[@gregm4813]

I don't care how the execution turns out to be: Shadow Dragons born of corrupted Dragon Balls because the heroes abused their wish-granting too much is an incredible concept. It also makes for an incredible "final arc to all of Dragon Ball." Needs serious execution work, but the concept is one of the best in all of Dragon Ball's official or semi-official material.

[@savannahsand4066]

A good concept only goes so far. The actual execution DOES actually matter. You can come up with a brilliant pitch in your mind, but actually making an enjoyable story out of it is what counts not the pitch. The Shadow Dragons are a good idea...but the actual Shadow Dragons range from dull to nothing antagonists with Omega perhaps being the most generic Dragon Ball villain in history (Which IS saying a lot).

[@gregm4813]

​@@savannahsand4066 I agree that execution does matter. I especially dislike the Shadow Dragons that we are given. A good idea doesn't count for nothing though: it's at least something one can want to see improved upon. Whereas Super #17, I could care less about seeing a better executed version of.