Buffy the Vampire Slayer Talk || s5e11 "Triangle"

[@Talisguy]

Spike's behaviour in this episode makes Riley's flirtation with the dark side a fair bit more interesting: it's like they each tried to copy what they thought Buffy liked about the other and failed because they just didn't get it. Riley tried to "go dark," not realising that Buffy just kind of...tolerates Spike (at least at this point in the series), and that she liked Angel *in spite of* his dark side. Spike tries to look like an upstanding hero, but he can't manage it because his lack of a soul means that he sees heroism in really shallow and selfish terms.

[@ernesthakey3396]

Cordy never got back with Xander - but I think him paying the rest of what she owed on the dress and keeping her secret near the end of season 3 healed their relationship as friends.

[@Tim85-y2q]

Definitely. That's why there's a dedicated scene of showing that they are back on friendly terms in Graduation Day Part One.

[@arthurspils2565]

Yeah, was a very nice little way of mending their relationship so they parted on good terms - nice work from the writers.

[@dlweiss]

I appreciate that S5 is self-aware enough to throw in these nicely-timed comedic episodes amidst the otherwise RELENTLESS WORRY AND EXISTENTIAL PAIN.

[@fightscrimewhilesleeping4024]

Well, I think Willow may be a little extra judgey of Anya also cause her first real interaction with her was the whole Doppelgangland thing, which at one point involved Anya directly encouraging a vampire to eat her lol XD

[@afry6400]

Good point. There would have to be a little layover resentment from that. You also have to remember Xan was her first love... for literally years. Even though she didn't feel that way about him anymore doesn't mean she'd want to see him hurt either. Heck Willow up to this point so far didn't even want her vamp self hurt even though she was pretty evil. I doubt she'd want to see Anya hurt either, just didn't really trust her.

[@hardybryan]

In fairness, Willow told a vampire to eat Anya first.

[@Nicamon]

@@hardybryan Yeah,but Anya was blowing her cover in that moment...in a place full of vampires...it was either Anya or...herself!;-P

[@talynstarburst2l2l2l]

Yeah, I don’t think Willow ever brought herself to like Anya much up to this point

[@insulaarachnid]

Buffy has provided us with so many usable quotes, "I could do that but I'm paralysed with not caring very much", is definitely in my top 10.

[@donsample1002]

“That’s insane troll logic!”

[@PrinceIMC]

I’ve always been on the Willow should have been bisexual tribe. I have a hard time believing she wasn’t attracted to Xander or Oz.

[@loftus4453]

She definitely was, but the writers had to fight just to show a lesbian relationship on screen. A bi-sexual character would have broken the network execs brains. Aaahhh the 90’s….gotta love it.

[@octo448]

This is the thing I feel most robbed of in all of Buffy. I'm fine with the now-canon idea that Willow just moved on, but there are so few GOOD bi characters to look to even now, and there were even fewer back then. It's such a lost opportunity. It also makes it feel like her relationship with Oz is devalued a bit, as if it "didn't count".

[@Anjalena]

My favorite part in this episode is Xander thinking... Maybe Spike could help? And Spike's response is absolutely hilarious. "I could but I'm paralyzed with not caring very much." and then a minute later when the troll asks where he could find succulent babies to eat and Spike deadpans the line to Xander "What do you think? The hospital?"

[@4everbuffylover]

Aw man you left out the best part of the whole episode. Olaf says “excuse me do you know where I can find succulent babies” and Spike just straight up says “what do you think? The hospital?” To Xander all conversationally, just being super helpful to the Troll who wants to eat babies 😂

[@Nicamon]

"What?!SHUT UP!😨💢" (The italian version is more funny.)

[@kevinligutom6994]

Alley: I hope Buffy won't be crying this episode or I'll lose it. *Buffy Cries* *Alley Laughs*

[@DaDunge]

31:15 Willow has always been a little judgey of everyone. She was with Cordelia, she was with Faith.

[@ninjaboy4831]

"Buffy did the homework? Buffy understood the homework?"

[@DaDunge]

@@ninjaboy4831 And that look of suprise when Buffy does well on that test is it called SATs?

[@ninjaboy4831]

@@DaDunge Good call. I forgot about that one. What I found interesting is that everyone (both reactors I've watched and characters in the show) usually just brush those moments off 90% of the time. The one in Earshot always stuck out to me because I didn't think about how it ties in with how Willow acts later in the series like with Anya here and how it was always there she just didn't have the confidence to vocalize those thoughts for better or for worse

[@stuffwithsoph8264]

I love Willow but a lot of my love is from early on in the show, as it goes on she judges people while kind of never reflecting that she herself has made poor decisions and doesn't have too much a leg to stand on

[@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502]

I mean, cordelia did bully willow for years, so it's understandable she wouldn't be too charitable to her

[@fleshTH]

The whole Xander thing from Into The Woods wasn't him making a decision for her. This is one of those things that people have misconstrued retroactively. If you really listen to what he is saying, he is telling her to actually act. Make a choice. If Riley is the one, if that is what she wants, then do something about it. Buffy took comfort in the fact that he was there even though his whole life got flipped on its head. She wasn't putting in the effort into the relationship. Which, btw, isn't 100% on Buffy, but that does make it something to think about and see if a choice has to be made one way or another. That's it. That's all. Everyone should have a friend like Xander who will cut through the bullshit and tell you what is real.

[@spamfilter32]

Poor Xander, this is the second time monsters broke his arm.

[@ChevaliersEmeraude]

Hi! So I know you talk about Xander's growth when he refuses to choose between Willow and Anya, but I gotta say, even high-school Xander, I don't see him ever making a choice like that. Not involving Anya of course, he barely knew her then, but if a troll attacked Willow and Cordelia and asked him to choose who lives and who dies, while high-school Xander would likely be a bit more jittery than Season 5 Xander about it, ultimately he'd refuse as well. Or if it was between Buffy and Willow. Or Buffy and Cordy. Or really any 2 main characters except Angel really! :p Even back then, as much as he was insecure and nervous, he was also very caring and brave. Heck, isn't that what "The Replacement" episode was all about? His insecure nature got split from his braver nature but, ultimately, once the reveal is brought up, you can very much see that both are indeed, in a way, Xander. Heck, he's also the guy who risked being blown up by a bomb to save everyone, and that was in his high school years as well! Sorry if I come up a bit Xander-apologetic, but I do think he's a good character, ultimately, and he gets a bit too much hate in the comments despite other characters doing way worse stuff at times...

[@alleybox]

trust me, where i am now in s6, i am a huge xander stan, so i definitely love this comment. i think s1-3, most people (mainly women imo) dislike xander bc he is a teenage boy to a T lol. and teenage boys are a bit annoying haha. i love his character and his growth, but yeah he definitely has always been very brave and always very loyal to his friends, so i guess “growth” was the wrong word choice for me to use :)

[@williamkirkland2222]

i think SMG was filming something else around this time, that's why she's in some off scenes where she is in a group, but her face never appears in the same shot as the others, and lots of her lines are post-recorded audio without her on screen. (EDIT - it was the scooby doo life action movie, she would film buffy on weekdays and then fly to Australia on weekends for the movie. she ended up having some minor scheduling conflicts due to some delayed fights and burnout, so joss gave her a few light episodes.)

[@rosshall6475]

I feel like the Willow thing is more about the time period and perceptions of sexuality then. It wasn't very long ago that bisexuality was viewed as a myth by a lot of straight and gay people.

[@alleybox]

yep absolutely. it woulda been a stretch for me to think the show would even say she is bi on the show, i was just hoping they would leave the door open and not have her say "hey im a lesbian now" so at least my headcanon could be possible 😪

[@ernesthakey3396]

@@alleybox your headcanon is still perfectly viable. :)

[@rosshall6475]

@@alleybox Absolutely. I choose to ignore that line

[@melenatorr]

Yes, I remember conversations and arguments about that during the run of the show.

[@RB-vo4gi]

@@alleybox I personally view Willow as pansexual, bisexual, or even demisexual. I just think the ways she experiences attraction one of those would make sense. I agree with this comment section though, that Willow identifying as strictly a lesbian is a product of the times. Joss even said he would have labeled her as bi within the show but that society and the shows creators weren’t ready for it because people would have dismissed it as a “phase.” To let it her relationship with Tara be taken more seriously, he identified her as a lesbian.

[@kilian-one-l]

I've always thought of Willow as Bi. I refuse to believe her relationship with Oz was just comphet. Also, have a hard time believing that she could lack attracted to men entirely because of how she couldn't stop herself from cheating with Xander even though she felt guilty. I dunno, it could be that she has a fluid sexuality.

[@MagusAgrippa8]

No need to dial back on the Dru love, she's the best. Juliet Landau is a freaking goddess in the role. Genuinely one of my favorite antagonists.

[@skullberry9000]

"Lately I've been crying too much...maybe this show will give me a break." Anybody else literally Laugh out Loud at that comment?

[@ianburns1167]

The big thing I love from this is the Insane Troll Logic. Because the troll REALLY thinks he's doing Xander a favor. It's not a sadistic choice, he think his bravery let him earn saving someone - and his loyalty earned letting Xander die in their place. He's being horrible, but from a place of sincerity, and objectively it is actually better than the alternative.

[@drogonk7109]

I love the "Hello, gay now!" line. We used to call ourselves gay in the 90s and early 00s, regardless of orientation or sex, it was a broad term we didn't care about labels. Yes, bi erasure did exist, especially in the gay community, but it has nothing to do with that line. Every LGBT member in our Buffy forum had either "hello, gay now!" and/or "And I think I'm kinda gay" lapel buttons because we absolutely loved those lines. I'm pansexual and I still use gay to this day. That line was iconic and still is!

[@alleybox]

absolutely iconic line

[@Nicamon]

@@alleybox Plus,Willow was trying to convince Anya she would never fall in love with Xander again...calling herself"bisex"wouldn't have helped!:-P

[@serinas4465]

I think they tried to make her bi, but were not allowed to.

[@alicequinn505]

I think she meant she was straight, but became gay in college. not a great line

[@Nicamon]

@@alicequinn505 I personally love that line!^w^ For sure the fact it was spoke by Alyson Hannigan helps.ANYTHING becomes cute when said by Alyson Hannigan!❤ I know for sure! I was able to sit through 4"American Pie"movies just for her!!X-PP

[@josephlamicela1996]

Xander says the words, “If he’s not the guy, if what he wants from you just isn’t there, let him go.” Xander isn’t “right”, in that I think we as the audience know Riley and Buffy were never gonna last, but as a character in the world of the show, Buffy seemed very much in love with him but also keeping him at arms length. From Xander’s perspective it looked like Buffy wanted him but was not taking care of the relationship. Which is honestly accurate. It in NO WAY excuses what Riley did with the Vamps, but Riley has a point that Buffy didn’t really reach for him except when she wanted some affection. I mean, by contrast, when Angel went evil, she confided in Willow that even when Angelus was killing her friends, she reflexively still had the first instinct to reach for him. She simply wasn’t there that way with Riley. That’s also not inherently wrong. Buffy’s allowed to approach a relationship in the way she’s comfortable. Riley is also completely in his right to say, this isn’t fulfilling me and I need more. He probably should have said it before he let Vamps suck on him, but he still has a point. So for Xander, I think he saw Buffy valuing Riley but not letting him in, so he tried to confront her with that idea and get her to ask the hard question. Is he the one? The answer is “no” but that’s humanity. To Xander she seemed broken up over it and she seemed to love Riley on some level, so he feared she was gonna let him walk for the wrong reasons. Hence the qualifier he gives her, “if he’s not the one…” That’s a conclusion Buffy could and probably should have accepted, but Buffy’s human too. Riley was good for her, he just wasn’t the one. So I think she chased the copter out of fear. The scene is messy and real which is why I like the is episode. Riley is right but he kind of lost his credibility. Buffy is right, but there are things she didn’t see. Xander is right but not in the way he thinks. The shows complexity is amazing.

[@SweenyTodd98]

I think it should be noted that Xander got hit by that hammer full on multiple times. Considering what happens with the hammer later you have to wonder what he's made of to survive that.

[@Garagantua]

I'd say he's made of Plotonium ;) (If the object hitting you imparts enough force to send you flying through the room, I'm pretty certain most of your ribs and organs are between "bruised" and "pulp".)

[@erikohman2294]

Alley: The last 3 episodes of Buffy where quite sad. Me: Do you have the slightest idea how little that narrows it down?

[@alleybox]

lmaooooo pls-

[@toshomni9478]

I think you actually had an interesting point about Xander's big talk to Buffy about Riley last episode because he did give her the out of saying she should just let Riley go if he's not the one so the choice was hers but Anya and Xander and others saying the breakup was all Buffy's fault in this episode was far worse and really makes no sense.

[@sirmoonslosthismind]

except that that "choice" last episode was incongruous with the rest of his speech, where he insisted that buffy was treating riley like a rebound when actually he's "the one". there is nothing remotely impartial about xander's speech. it comes off like he wants buffy with riley because of his own baggage. he's not really being a friend in that scene.

[@redeem147]

One thing I not about Spike - when Buffy left him Spike kept helping the woman

[@rosaliehetrick4285]

I really like when you talk about the camera views and the directing choices. I'm going into film and I think you talking about that stuff really helped me get into that sort of thing.

[@diamondsmiles6882]

Please, please more Buffy. I know you’ve taped these a long time ago. I just can’t wait to see your reaction to upcoming episodes!!

[@exnedu1738]

"Was it the last episode of Buffy that made me cry or the one before." Yes.

[@Theomite]

Absolutely. Nothing to worry about. Only vampires and faeries and even a unicorn from here on out. Willow calls him "Sprinkles."

[@RobinTimDrake]

While the line delivery is amazing, I've always had a problem with "Gay now". Willow loved and pined for Xander. Willow loved and was in a committed relationship with Oz & would no doubt still be with him if he hadn't left. I hate the implication some people give that she just hadn't figured herself out yet. She even admitted she wasn't looking for it, but her feelings for Tara just evolved naturally. Willow falls in love with people but the proper teminology wasn't there in 2001.

[@Anjalena]

I'm autistic. Something I was unaware of till last year at age 50. A neurodivergent neurological system can make it very difficult to know or understand what you feel in all kinds of ways. I thought I was straight when I was a teen cuz everyone I knew was straight. I was married for 5 years to a dude before going on to college where I got a crush on my best friend so I thought I was bi. I later had another long-term relationship with a dude. Wasn't until my late 30s that I finally realized that I'm just a lesbian. Not bi. I think maybe my bigender-ness might have also been confusing me but not sure. It's not always as cut-and-dry as it is for some people.

[@lurker1316]

24:35 - Sounds very familiar to my own experiences in high school. Oh? This girl was nice to me one (1) time? I should buy her flowers and write her poems so we can be in a relationship, because that's what I'm supposed to do, right? Thankfully I eventually realized I was ace. At the time I was quite distressed that imitating romance toward every girl who was nice to me wasn't working, but now I'm in a place where I'm quite glad that none of those relationships ever turned into romance. 25:38 - Willow's identity seems like a relic of the time. She seems to be written as essentially bi in just about every way except for actually calling herself bi. I'm not sure if they thought bi was too complicated a concept for the audience back then or what. At any rate, she calls herself gay, so we accept that as the canon. I certainly wouldn't want to invalidate anyone's experiences with compulsory heterosexuality, as it messed me up too, but New Moon Rising, at the very least, feels like it's written like it's about a bisexual character.

[@4everbuffylover]

Yeah, it’s pretty clear from New Moon rising that part of Willow will always love Oz. Which is decidedly not gay 🫤

[@tmpreardon4200]

I live for an Anya episode. I used to work in a restaurant that the actor that plays the troll and his real life wife would regular. They were very cute and sweet and nice.

[@antonbrakhage490]

Yeah this was the point where they really should have added Tara to the opening credits. Riley for Tara is a trade I'd take any day.

[@Jb-id1bu]

Can I just say that I love how Willow calls Anya "the Fish", as in from Cat in the Hat, when she's giving her crap about....you know, messing up Anya's workplace and swiping magic supplies for fun. Lol. Mostly because it means Willow is calling HERSELF the Cat. And the Cat is a sleazy con artist who wrecks everything he touches while trying to make himself feel special by doing increasingly over the top crazy nonsense. Lmao. Its kind of a telling line, given how her behaviour has been getting over the seasons.

[@Tim85-y2q]

Yes, but at the same time I think Willow is not really wrong that Giles would approve of what she was doing if he was there. I mean, he only really acquired The Magic Box to help facilitate his reassuming the role of watcher.

[@HelloXrancidkitteh]

@@Tim85-y2q plus he did need a job. he was no longer getting paid by the watcher council AND he's no longer being paid as the school librarian...so he's gotta get money to live somehow. its just a perfect job for him.

[@Tim85-y2q]

@@HelloXrancidkitteh It seems to me that they kind of imply he must have a level of independent wealth given that he essentially spends a year doing nothing and somehow still has the funds to buy a sportscar and start a new business. When he does buy the Magic Box, they even have a specific line about it being due to boredom without ever mentioning the need for money.

[@Buffy8Fan]

Abraham Benrubi's Jerry on _ER._ Willow wishing for money after Buffy shows up because she had just wished Buffy was there is one of the only times in this episode I can identify with her character. I don't feel she had a right to do what she did or say what she said to Anya in this episode, friend of Giles (and the group) or not. Anya was more in the right. Xander not laying things out for them relationship-wise (girlfriend and friend to friend and girlfriend) never helped, either. Buffy didn't know anything was wrong in her and Riley's relationship because he wasn't talking to her and if she did know, again, he wasn't talking to her about it. She did try and talk to him in _Out of My Mind_ and he told her by the end there wasn't anything wrong except the issues of feeling like he couldn't keep up with her (obviously a lie). So Buffy couldn't give him the out Xander claimed she should have. I just watched the first Talkville podcast about Smallville and Tom and Michael talked about a line of Clark feeling like he needed to justify himself to not being gay when another character made that assumption and how today lines like that come off negatively, but, "hello, gay now" and "I think I'm kinda gay" don't because the Tara and Willow relationship was the slow progression upward to the representation we see in pop culture (and perhaps real life to some degree - who knows about that, though) today.

[@notoriouslybratty]

I think if Xander was a better friend, he would have told her Riley was unhappy earlier. Like why did he wait so long to say anything and then be like we all can see it. Ugh

[@HopelessHermit]

Like an early birthday present. 3 Buffy vids from 3 Buffy channels, an x files vid, and more

[@lionlyons]

Buffy (off-screen while beating the sh*t out of the troll): THEIR LOVE. WILL LAST. FOREVER!! LMAO

[@ciaramclaughlin5677]

Super happy to see another reaction, I do quite like this episode mostly because it is quite lighthearted compared to the previous ones and provides a nice emotional break. Also it does have a few good jokes!

[@spacenerdtrue]

Everybody loves "insane troll logic".

[@freshPrincess626]

Spike’s Buffy-as-morality-chain era

[@mj6866]

I really like this episode and I am glad you are back to doing a Buffy episode.

[@spikedwk]

One of the few people I get excited about seeing the alert for an upload for. Mainly because I love watching other ppl react to the whedonverse and your reactions remind me of mine lol

[@GalahadGregory]

Yeah, Joyce is all good now.

[@alleybox]

she is just peachy now 😀

[@dlweiss]

@@alleybox haha, yep, there she is teasing Buffy and tickling Dawn. Happy show. Happy show.

[@alleybox]

@@dlweiss nothing bad ever happens on this show 🥰

[@GalahadGregory]

@@alleybox Yes, it's terribly simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true. The bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats. And, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies and everybody lives happily ever after.

[@emmabenson9572]

@@GalahadGregory liar

[@adamvelez]

Giles leaving and everything going to shit also explains season 6 and 7 🤣🤣

[@russellward4624]

Willow has always been judgie in general. She was mega judgie about Faith from the moment they met.

[@Zerashadow]

I love how these reactions are 16 minutes show, and then 25 minutes Alley analysing every aspect of the episodes and characters, that's not something you usualy see and it's so intressting. Never had these deep thoughts of why Willow and Xander did what they did and so on. Ooo also saw a comment about Doppelgangland, where Angel says Vampires kinda keep some personalty, and Willows comment about her Doppelganger is "And she seemed kinda Gay"

[@bramo1825]

The moment with Spike practicing giving the Buffy 'Doll' chocolates is pretty telling about Spike's character...while he *thinks* he cares about her, Spike is also willing to do violence towards Buffy if he was able. It's sad that too many people think "Aww he wants to give her chocolates," and not "He is willing to do physical harm if he could." Also apparently Spike can get away with grappling and feeling up Buffy as she is trying to stand up in the Bronze, and you laughed at it like it wasn't predatory and rapey...

[@orianadunn4478]

Big “nice guy” energy imo

[@alicequinn505]

It also means that he's anticipating meanness from her. Even in his head, he can't imagine her being nice to him. The violence is standard with them, but it does make you wonder why he likes her in the first place. And oh, come on, that moment was funny.

[@sirmoonslosthismind]

@@alicequinn505 he's soulless and has a distorted idea of love. remember that part of his plan for winning dru back was to torture her. anyway, i don't think most people who are fascinated with spike in this scene are going to tell you he's the greatest guy ever. but when we've all seen what angel is like under the same circumstances, i think there's definitely something intriguing about spike here.

[@alicequinn505]

@@sirmoonslosthismind i think the Dru thing was more of the sexy kind(we get that from canon), but you're right, it's compared to other vampires. Though no spoilers, some of the stuff he does can be compared to humans too.

[@antonbrakhage490]

Re Willow- Canonically, Willow's a lesbian. She says she is, and one should respect how people self-identify. But if it was written now, I do believe she would probably be written as bi.

[@katieflaggirl8518]

Lol remember in season 3 episode when willow meets her other self? “But I’m so evil, and skanky…. And I think I’m kinda gay.” Love a good set up like that

[@RICHIEV333]

Jane Espenson loves the underdogs; Xander, Anya, Johnathan, Harmony, Wes, and Tucker's brother... (I forget his name) So an episode that gives us a look into Anya's past and brings in an ex-boyfriend who is a Troll is a perfect Jane Episode. (Oh, and she's kinda funny as well) Jane also worked, wrote on the episode, "Harsh Light Of Day," which ends with Harmony, Anya, and Buffy reflecting on their relationship woes... Frickin Parker! (Buffy should Neanderthal out one more time just so she can club him again)

[@Heldemon]

Honestly a lot of the people from my experience saying they hate Xanders speech in this episode meant to say they always hate Xander. They're usually the same people that completely hate Riley. I mean at the end Xander said if you think you could truly love him, then go, if not, make it a clean break. So she thought about it and choose to go, no? It has been awhile since I properly watched the episode so maybe I'm a wrong on my thoughts for that.

[@relaxingtopology256]

"Hopefully this show gives me a break," she says.

[@MagusAgrippa8]

On the subject of cheating and the comparison between Riley's act and Xander and Willow's act, I think what ultimately makes the difference is the timing. If we disregard age and maturity, we're still left with a guy who purposely sought out a vampire for a succjob and a couple who started kissing in a moment of passion. All three of them continued their affair for a time before it was found out, so we can disregard that, too. In other words, one was a premeditated spiral and the blame lands squarely on Riley for starting and continuing it instead of talking about it. He also never openly says what he's doing is wrong. Xander and Willow admitted what they were doing was very wrong and ended up consumed by their emotions along the way. Ultimately, all three of them made horrible mistakes. Willow and Xander felt regret and worked to regain their significant other's trust again. Riley just walked off. That's what does it for me. Willow and Xander earned a degree of forgiveness. Riley did not.

[@frugalseverin2282]

Several points. I agree about Xander should have known better about kissing Willow. But they did used to go out when they were 6 and looking at linoleum makes him horny. And Willow had Oz at that point, no need to regress with her feelings for Xander. I attribute this one to the writers. If you remember 'Doppelgangland' Anya tried to get the vampires to kill Willow, that kind of put a damper on their relationship. In fact Willow punched her in that episode. Then Anya started dating Xander. You are always blind to Riley's motives in seeking the vampire's attention. It wasn't because he was attracted to her or just that he felt needed by her but because of what Spike had said to him: Buffy needs a little monster in her man. Riley was pure white bread good guy so he tried to be what Buffy wanted. He was willing to change who he was to spark some love in her. In the end it only served to drive them further apart.

[@agremna5]

She said she's tired of crying. Get ready. Also, remember these words: "your shirt"

[@sarahhiggins1515]

Yeah in terms of Willow’s crush on Xander but turning out to be gay I relate because I also had “crushes” on guys but they were who I thought I should be attracted to. So yes my childhood best friend and then later a guy that was objectively attractive, smart, funny and nice. But then calling Willow gay feels invalidating to her relationship with Oz. Because they had a really deep connection and she actually enjoyed being physical with him. They were in love. Seeing Oz with someone else (even though it was due to some supernatural wolf instincts) really broke her. She felt so betrayed. So to say that she’s gay and therefore could never have been in love with him feels wrong. Willow is bi. The only reason they say she’s gay is because of bi erasure at the time. Bisexuals were seen in a certain way and that didn’t fit the character of Willow. The most you can say is that she leans more towards women. And maybe Oz is the only man she will ever love but that still makes her bi.

[@marqijackson6103]

You are not wrong bout Riley, he was the rebound guy, doomed from the start. He need to just be glad he secured the cheeks

[@blacktronlego]

2:44 I must admit I never thought about the meaning of that title. Sometimes I have had to explain episode titles if they reference something the reactor is not familiar with, but I never really though about that one. 14:27 I wish we had more scenes with Tara and Buffy, hopefully when Buffy isn't going to pieces. 16:41 Spike really didn't want to release Buffy, did he?

[@Lions1986]

No decision was made for Buffy, she made the choice to run after Riley, no one else made her do that.

[@9ansean]

At 12:10-20, knowing what episodes you've gotten through so far I'm surprised this didn't get another appearance from editing Ashley.

[@TheJoscelyne]

Riley was struggling with the mess of toxic masculinity he probably learned in the military fighting monsters. He's suddenly the weak one, who needs to be protected from the bad guys by his girlfriend, who also refuses to lean on his strength. I always found it extra that he went to a vampire for comfort, knowing that the acknowledged love of Buffy's life so far was a vampire. He was so threatened by Angel, so he "got back" at Buffy for his insecurity with a vampire.

[@tehcoolemu]

I want to say that the previous "Giles should never leave them unattended" episode was Lovers Walk. Also, not you identifying Joyce with your mom... o_O In fact, lots of your commentary probably hits different to Editing Alley.

[@9ansean]

I was thinking the same thing. Including her lines about ever getting messed up when Giles leaves.

[@4everbuffylover]

Even when he doesn’t leave them unattended things get wacky. Tabula Rasa comes to mind 😂

[@teganevans]

So I can easily believe that, out of universe, at least one of the reasons Willow is "gay now" is almost certainly bi erasure. I don't know enough about the bts stuff to know if there were other reasons. I usually find it more interesting to look at the show by itself and consider the writers intentions a separate thing In universe, she could very well be a lesbian, her long term crush on unattainable, safe Xander to me really points to that. Her relationship with Oz isn't unrealistic either, she obviously had a close connection with Oz and cared deeply about him, and when you're a young closeted lesbian you can kind of just assume that any positive feeling about a guy must be attraction because that's what society says it must be. Of course on the other hand she could also be bi, and due to internalised biphobia, or not understanding bisexuality, or just not knowing herself yet she thinks she's a lesbian. She wouldn't be the first person to have trouble figuring themself out. I know gay is often used as an umbrella term but I think the fact that Willow is using it as evidence that she's no longer into Xander means that she isn't using it that way. At the end of the day I think it's completely reasonable to headcanon Willow as bi or lesbian. People headcanoning one way or the other aren't "stealing" representation from the other side

[@fightscrimewhilesleeping4024]

Yeah, I agree about both being valid interpretations. Fictional characters don't really have a "real" sexuality in a certain sense because they're, well. Fictional. And because they are fictional, multiple interpretations can, in a way, be equally "true". They can sort of coexist in both states simultaneously without any actual conflict, because the very concept of fiction allows for that multiplicity. My other bi friends and I often refer to characters like that as "Schrodinger's Queers" lol. They are all the things they can be seen as being all at once XD

[@Tim85-y2q]

Yes, there are a lot of people who don't identify as bi who may have had relationships that could be defined that way at some point, particularly early in their romantic lives. In this case, I do think it's probably a case of how an exclusively straight writers room thought about these things 20+ years ago, but I think it's also at least arguable that Willow wouldn't define herself as bi, and viewed in a vacuum away from systemic issues of bi erasure in media, that is, or at least can be, a valid conception of this one particular character.

[@rv186rs]

It’s been mentioned before I’m sure but the creators have mentioned that what they where trying to do at the time was heading off any “it’s just a phase “ and “girls just experiment a little in college before settling down with a husband” type arguments that might have come about at the time. Like remember while it is not the very first lesbian kiss on TV the eventual one we’ll get to is still a trailblazer as the first kiss between two women in a committed relationship, this show as such had a hard enough fight to get any lgbtq representation and had to pick its fights as well as make sure to be very clear for audiences not used to those kinds of things.

[@R.J.Godzilla81]

Girl you don’t know sad, the real sad is yet to come. As for you being hyped, you ain’t seen nothing yet, those last 3 episodes…DAMN, dude now that’s hype

[@transplantman2287]

I appreciate that Spike is very obviously a "nice guy" only doing "nice" things to get credit for it, not because he genuinely believes he should do it. They don't make any excuse for it, and it's frustrating for the viewer because we SEE him wanting to be altruistic but know that he lacks the moral compass to do it. Spike probably wouldn't ever have thought to make an effort to be even performatively altruistic without the chip preventing him from being fully violent and vicious all the time.

[@transplantman2287]

Also, unrelated, Anya is a character who crops up a lot when autistic people make "characters you headcanon as autistic" lists and for me, it tracks. What most people don't like about Anya is that she says the quiet part out loud and none of them wanna hear it. XD

[@ernesthakey3396]

Hey Alley, hope your mom fully recovered and is doing well.

[@jasonfelts5193]

I still hate the way that they basically ignored Xander's abusive childhood was either ignored or played for laughs in later seasons. Even though they never dealt it directly in the high school seasons, his portrayal in those a rang true for a teen growing up in an abusive household: anger barely hidden with humor, low self-esteem, impulsivity, self-destructive, stupid risk taking. After he graduated, he gets about one episode of character development a season, his underlying issues are never discussed, and he's basically embarrassing comic relief. As someone who grew up that way, I recognized the high school Xander. The post high school was basically a clown

[@Carabas72]

I read in an interview a long time ago (print media, when the show was still airing) that Willow was supposed to be bisexual, except the studio was terrified of that word.

[@jenhalbert3001]

Yeah, i love this episode too, iit's so fucking funny. And i believe the other episode where Giles left and the world broke, well, i don't wanna mention because i don't think it's happened yet, but it happens again.

[@dneill8493]

I agree about Xander's speech. I thought it was one of his better moments. Doesn't mean that when I first watched it I wasn't yelling at him to shut up, because I was. I wanted Riley gone as much as anyone and I think it's why most people hated Xander's speech: because it almost led to more Riley and who wants that.

[@apparition13]

About the whole running thing - funny that even with Slayer speed she was juuuuust a bit too late. Almost like her heart wasn't really in it. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence. :)

[@MrSupertallblackman]

My problem with people's opinions of Riley is that it's completely inconsistent with other characters. All of the characters have faults and screw up all the time and they're given infinite understanding and forgiveness. Riley messes up one thing and everyone gives him shit. If you're problem is the fact that he cheated Willow, Xander and Oz would like to have a word. If your problem is that he's being careless with dangerous creatures like vampires Buffy would like to have a word.

[@dlweiss]

Yeah, everyone else is a mess, no doubt. But it's not quite comparable to Riley, since Buffy was only involved with Angel when he had a soul - and wasn't FEEDING off her regularly. Moreover, it's the fact that Riley did all of this stuff (lying, sneaking around cheating, being involved with vampires) while Buffy was in the midst of her mother's illness, and then had the gall to BLAME BUFFY for his awful choices and behavior. Don't get me wrong, he's only human and was feeling useless and un-needed - but that's what TALKING to Buffy and actually communicating his needs and feelings is for. Instead he chose to bottle everything up and repeatedly do something dangerous and dishonest, all while continuing to share a bed with Buffy.

[@dlweiss]

Also, I think people tend to give the other Scoobies more slack because they were literal high-schoolers or college freshmen when a lot of their relationship drama unfolded. Riley was already a TA and a soldier when we met him, so there's an expectation of more maturity and responsibility from him, I think.

[@alleybox]

my views have changed a bit obviously since my first reaction of still just being upset about him leaving buffy hanging. as with willow xander and oz, further i get from the episode where they do some messed up stuff, i understand them more and more. its unfortunate these videos only get to give a small part of what my view is on a character in the moment. im p sure in my wrap up for this season, i am a lot less harsh (which honestly is mostly just jokes poking fun at a character that got sucked off by a vampire in an alley and then left in a helicopter to go fight in a rainforest when he got caught lmao) bc i had time to understand both buffy and riley are at fault for a bad relationship. but also, i do feel equating willow and xander who were like 16 and both had repressed, confusing feelings and riley who is like 23 and absolutely knows the consequences of getting sucked off by a vampire behind his girlfriends back is looking at the situations too easily in my opinion. (and oz, i absolutely will admit i was too harsh on him, i was blinded by willow crying, that was my bad lol)

[@MrSupertallblackman]

@@dlweiss Ok but as you said they all have their flaws why is Riley's put on the pedestals. As alley tires to brush under the rug in the review Xander and Willow cheat but they get a pass because blah blah they have feelings blah blah blah they were kids. Which inadvertently almost got Cordy killed. Giles was in college and summoning demon spirits which ended up getting his friends killed it doesn't matter how old you are you can make mistakes at any age.

[@MrSupertallblackman]

@@alleybox Ok I'll related to people closer to Riley's age. Giles was in college when was summoning a demon spirit that got all of his friends killed. Are we hold Giles to the same standard as Riley should Giles be berated for it for the rest of his adult life? Willow in this episode almost got her friends killed because she's was careless with her magic. Oz cheated on Willow. Angel left a room full of people to die because he was butt hurt. All I'm saying they all have flaws and make poor decisions be consistent about the criticism.

[@4everbuffylover]

I’m sure Tara will be in the opening credits eventually

[@godmagnus]

Riley didn't cheat. That wasn't sexual or romantic. It was something he did to get high, like drugs.

[@MagusAgrippa8]

You have to consider the metaphor. While the show tends to tie together drugs and magic, vampires have always been very sexual beings.

[@em8066]

You're not a hypocrite. Willow and Xander, as teenagers, did a much better job taking accountability and apologizing to their respective partners when they cheated. Riley made his transgression Buffy's fault, refused to give her space to process, issued an ultimatum for her to show her love for him, on top of him showing constant insecurity about her strength & having no grace for her overwhelm with her mom's life-threatening illness. It's a lot.

[@imnickij]

Riley was done dirty by bad writing and unexpected character exits. I had so much hope for the exploration of science vs myth and it was such a letdown.

[@TheNoybusiness]

Fun fact: Olaf's lines were all written in all caps. "Giles you cannot leave us unattended ever again." Well, about that... (Alley's in Season 6 right now, not a spoiler.)

[@Jontor11]

Great reaction Alley! Interesting what you said. That Willow had a crush on Xander because she thought she HAD to have a crush on Xander. I think that you are spot on. As a teenager, everything's confusing and all we have is the social norms that guides us. Well, we know what the social norms are, and it is not that far fetched to think that WIllow was lurred into something she really didn't want in the first place. I hope that one day teenagers don't have these limitations and can freely explore their sexual orientation in a calm and natural way.

[@TheRubberDuck77]

1 more episode till you get to my favorite scene in all of Buffy hehe... yay!!!

[@blackkatt777]

idk what these people are watching that say Buffy didn't make her own choice to go after Riley and that she was forced to. HOW?! Xander clearly said, "If he's not the one, then let him go. But if you think you could love this man, then fight for your relationship." Clearly she made her choice to want him in her life still, but it didn't work out that way. I suspect people who were ragging on Riley are the ones that already had a bias opinion against him since he and Buffy got together. Or they're so immature that they don't want to admit that Buffy had her part of the blame in the relationship too. As I said before, if the situation were reversed and he was chasing after Buffy, then it's like Buffy deserved to be fought for....but because of people's hatred towards Riley, all they do is see him as the problem and Buffy is the saint. She's a human woman first, and a Slayer second. In between slaying she has to go through the growing pains that come with maturity just like the rest of people. Riley is a subject that can really trigger your watchers. He is a heated debate amongst the fandom, so not telling you what to do with your channel, but be prepared if more commentary on him keeps going. You didn't like him, and now he's gone. So....shout out to the actor, Marc Blucas for doing a great job playing Riley...and a thousand apologies of being mistreated by the fandom because of it. Also for having to write that message of apology to the fandom for not being what they wanted him to be, but feeling honored to have been a part of this iconic show. He didn't deserve the hateful bullying comments thrown at him. Just an actor doing his job.

[@arthurspils2565]

My general reaction to s5e10 is probably kinder than most, mainly as I can kind of see why Riley feels the way he does and think if he wants to leave then that's his choice, but agree with you and the wider view that Buffy running after him wasn't the best way to do it, nor was Xander pushing her into going after him the best way she could've realised. Anyway, yeah appreciate the light-heartedness of this episode, with some decent self-awareness from S5 to fit them in with all the more serious and darker sh*t it throws at you. Also agree that with benefit of hindsight Willow more likely bi from directors view, but filmed in 2001 so 🤷‍♂

[@patrickadams7120]

Honestly Alley the more you delve into the Buffy fandom the more you will realise that with some people Xander can do no right....he's always wrong and he's the worst period. With Xander he never tells you what you want to hear but he always tells you what you need to hear....eg "Kick his ass" S2 finale....if he tells Buffy that Willow is doing the spell again she would have gone easy on Angelus and she would have lost and the world gets sucked into hell....He gave Buffy the clarity of mind to do what had to be done....has he been childish,absolutely but isn't that a part of growing up

[@jimforman3754]

I think you'll enjoy Netflix series "Warrior Nun" . ressurections, artifacts, angels...all the fun stuff.

[@boqndimitrov8693]

good thing the horned jerk didn't break zander's neck. the show wouldn't have been the same.

[@pillmuncher67]

Abraham Benrubi!

[@janinep206]

Omg so glad you agree about the Xander and Riley in the last episode it annoyed me so much I stopped watching for a while! Completely forgot why I stopped watching and got annoyed all over again but pushed through and glad I did because season 5 especially the ending is insane!

[@9ansean]

If she thought Angel Season 2 got insane, what the heck is going to be her reactions to Season 3? 8:00-15 Oh my! 8:40-45 Who could have seen that coming? LOL

[@MultiShriek]

I wish I had a million dollars. I am sure that's pinched off a friends episode.

[@ibgvox]

The nun scene was Joss's, of course LOL

[@patrickholt2270]

Willow and Xander were pretty innocent really. They never went beyond second base. It's not at all like Xander and Anya's relationship, or Willow and Tara's. Cordelia and Xander were also fairly innocent, as far as the show portrayed. The main thing with Xander is he's the self-insert for Joss Whedon, so he has no expectation of anyone being attracted to him and consequently doesn't really know how to handle it, let alone the situation of having more than one option at a time and managing to say no to an offer. He has to make his mistakes to learn, basically.

[@fad23]

At the time to me it felt like bi erasure. That phrase wasn't prominent then, but it really bugged me.

[@fad23]

I was told by other fans at the time that gay people weren't getting represented either, so I'm not sure how to reconcile my misgivings.

[@jasonfelts5193]

I read an interview where Whedon said she thought of Willow as bi, but people in the writers room, particularly LGBT+ people, said that play into the "lesbian till graduation/it's only a phase" stereotypes, so they made her lesbian

[@killuanatsume]

I have three recommendation for you: Once upon a time, Person of Interest and Orphan Black.

[@lillimarq]

It's still 90s approach to sexuality being very simplistic. She may be gay, but she may also be bi, but bisexuality was kinda the in-between even queer media didn't really get at the time (hello old l word making bi character denounce her bisexuality in horrible way ). Willow had a deep, loving relationship with Oz, so maybe she knew better about herself later, or it was the 90-00s inability of accounting for bisexuality.

[@interstellardave]

I love this episode but the ridiculous fight where Xander gets hit square on the head with the hammer, and is totally fine, breaks my ability to suspend disbelief. Concussion, at the very least, and likely brain damage, possibly death. He’s certainly not getting up any time soon… and this is after a blow that should have broken his shoulder moments earlier.

[@godmagnus]

Raise your hand if you were like 😬😬😬😬😬 during that one part in the intro.

[@timolee]

now it makes a lot of sense why the bully fans of this show connect with willow and spike as much as they do

[@sadfaery]

Bi was very much already a thing back then, and honestly I never really understood why they had Willow identify as gay rather than bi, and of course people's perceptions of themselves can change over time, but it definitely seemed like her strong and persistent crush on Xander and her relationship with Oz were not just her expressing interest in boys because she thought it's what was expected of her or whatever other reason there could be for that disconnect between her personal history and how she now identifies her sexual orientation. But I do know someone - my half-sister's mother - who identified as straight when she was in a relationship with my dad and as gay when she had a girlfriend for several years after she and my dad got divorced, and now identifies straight again now that she's married to another man, so this sort of change in identification does happen in real life too, but I still think it's weird that they did it with Willow here. Especially at a time when it really would have been nice to have had bi representation that wasn't hypersexualized or based on stereotypes. Sigh. (Bonus note - for some fantastic bi+ representation, I recommend Netflix's Heartstopper.)

[@4everbuffylover]

You know I just feel like it was a last minute decision on Whedon’s part rather than something planned so that’s why she’s all in on the boys in the first few seasons. Cuz she’s wasn’t gay at the time

[@startingQB]

Pretty sure Willow was bi but said "gay now" more for comedic effect. But also because bisexuality wasn't really a thing at the time.

[@DaDunge]

15:45 Well it did happen to her once.