A Roman Road, a Roman Temple and a Romano-British River Name: Kingston Deverill, “Defereal”, Wilts

[@pwhitewick]

Historic England have some odd views about the route that crossed here that went North South (Badbury to Bath). They quote Margary in a listing, as evidence for a specific route, however Margary simple states: "We just don't know". Suffice to say when I highlighted this, i was told to go away.

[@johnvanstone5336]

Thanks for mentioning and seeing Allotment Fox I have now subscribed to his channel.

[@AllotmentFox]

I had a brief look but nothing, though there is plenty on the road to Salisbury. The rest of the Roman in the area I will cover on my next video. Thank you for the plug, btw, my figures have exploded in 3 hours. I reported a ring ditch next to another ring ditch and the archæologists couldn’t see it. I recommended Specsavers

[@mushymagazineonlocation7328]

Thanks for the channel tip Paul. I still love your channel too though.

[@AndyJarman]

Did they harrass you with black hawk attack helicopters on the way home? WC21 (UK) Productions gets that treatment from English Hermitage all the time.

[@pwhitewick]

@@AndyJarman marked as safe... so far

[@mushymagazineonlocation7328]

Hi. New subscriber here. Sent by Paul Whitewick. I think I’m going find your channel very interesting. I love history like this because as you know, the devil is in the detail.

[@AllotmentFox]

All the fine print is held hostage by a Russian hacker. But is it his fault if we have relegated all the fine detail it to an archive? Thanks for watching

[@a11oge]

same here

[@MrSOLOPIANIST]

Me too

[@leonardjackman354]

Thank you for your interesting information in your videos just subscribed.

[@AllotmentFox]

Thank you Leonard

[@annenewton5403]

A wonderful historical video, fascinating. I love your take of everything. We have an allotment it’s essential these days.

[@AllotmentFox]

it is and because no one will suffer the starvation wages of agriculture it is (I feel) the only sustainable way to organically grow. I think they should free up any unused space for allotments and give us our waste they have c9mposted, a lot of social problems will disappear. The only problem is that growing food is a hard skill to learn with all the disasters that suddenly befall your plot every year

[@annenewton5403]

@@AllotmentFox There is so much waste land, the Manor House’s had their waste land which you could build hovels and grow food on if you were lucky. We need to teach people how to grow food, cook, make pickles do canning etc too.

[@WildwoodTV]

Getting a little addicted to your channel Mr Fox! Congrats on doubling your subs👍7:25 Bryn - hill, Cym (Combe) - valley. Maybe I need to brush up on my Chaucer too... 16:00 K (potash/wood ash) P&N (chicken poo!) Galena, no can't revisit Latin or C+ yuk! Don't forget UK Gold, Silver & Salt... PS aparrently 'Dever' is Flemish for Wild boar...

[@jasonfields9678]

Really enjoyed that mate love what you do and look forward to following you on this journey of discovery. Top stuff.

[@AllotmentFox]

Thanks, Jason

[@jameswalksinhistory3848]

Great to have some background to the names in my area -Thank you

[@DavidSanftenberg]

Why have I not found your channel before?! Fantastic stuff, also from Paul's channel

[@AaronDavies-ms3si]

Hi very interesting can you do one on friarwaddon in Dorset I'm really interested to find out the history such a strange name kind regards Aaron love your great knowledge 😀

[@AllotmentFox]

there is a Saxon charter of Portisham and I covered a bit of it about the ridgeway. I was on holiday. It is a bit far for me. Waddon is woad down, the hill where woad grows, the friars are the medieval brothers that took over the estate.

[@AaronDavies-ms3si]

@AllotmentFox thankyou for that love watching your utube channel very interesting 👍👍

[@IanDDalton]

Many thanks for your investigation it was really interesting to hear your views, I was reading a blog after the comment I made on your previous video, that seemed to indicate that "Cold Kitchen", could predate both Anglo Saxon and Roman, and be a Celtic phrase meaning "old wizard", its an intriguing area, and I think that route from Mere to Warminster was utilised a lot in antiquity :)

[@AllotmentFox]

Deverill is at least Roman but it is not Latin, so probably ancient British (Celtic). i shall see if I can find this blog, but with place names where you have a choice between an interesting or a boring definition it is nearly always the boring one that is true (unfortunately).

[@AllotmentFox]

@@IanDDalton yes found it. It didn’t cite any sources. All my Celtic names come from academics and I have no Celtic knowledge. If it was English I would have a punt. Thry also think it is Lang Beorghe and I would genuinely be 8nterested in hoe they pieced that together

[@IanDDalton]

@@AllotmentFox there is no right or wrong discussions when talking about things so long ago, but I think its great we can have now have the discussion :)

[@WC21UKProductionsLtd]

I was going to gently challenge your assumption about it being a Romano British temple and then the drone went up. Brilliant! I hope your gloomy projection for the next 20 years is wrong, but I know you’re right about that too. At least it made me chuckle to think of the Russians trying to bring down some strategically important website and ending up frustrating an antiquarian in Wiltshire.

[@AllotmentFox]

My wife is now laughing at my ridiculous opinions I love the way you reduced my heartfelt reactions to the international situation to absurdity in one perfectly poised sentence. I shall get my coat.

[@faithlesshound5621]

I was aware for months that parts of the British Library's website were down when I was looking for information on old books. Sometimes the Library of Congress or the Bibliothèque Nationale could help, but nothing replaces the BL.

[@archeanna1425]

The home of 45% of known world reserves of potash is in the Canadian province of Saskatchewan. If you need some, we are likely to have some for you for a while.

[@AllotmentFox]

Done. Where can we get our Phosphorous?

[@theoztreecrasher2647]

@@AllotmentFox On and under any statue in urban Britain, I'd say. Nearly as convenient as training the pigeons to fly down the rows as the crops are planted! 🤔🧐

[@timstradling7764]

Yes please😊

[@AllotmentFox]

@@theoztreecrasher2647 let’s not look a gift horse in the mouth. Will someone tell Keir we’ve arranged a post-Brexit trade agreement with the Canadians on KZbin?

[@WildwoodTV]

@@AllotmentFox Chicken poo - I have lots! 🐔Very good for the garden - unfortunately chickens will eat everything! 🎃

[@josiecohen4079]

Hello I’m currently researching an old sub manor of Epsom/Ebbsham/Ebbasham called Brettguesherne alias Wolfrenesherne. The area seems to have been passed between Merton Abbey, Chertsey Abbey and King Henry’s Royal park at Hampton Court. It is currently called castle hill and the remains of a motte and Bailey with mill pond are still visible within the landscape. Any help would be appreciated or advice please. Absolutely love your work x

[@AllotmentFox]

Hi Josie, I am soon going to do a short tutorial on how to research placenames using factual online resources. Keep a look out for that. Thank you for the kind words

[@AllotmentFox]

The English Place Name society has nothing older than 1793 for Castle Hill and it was called that then. It was in the old parish of Chessington but on the border with Epsom. If you can show what looks like early Middle English forms for this hill then you will be adding to knowledge! The two names having -herne is useful, normally it means a triangular piece of land or the end of a ridge

[@josiecohen4079]

@@AllotmentFox Jeremy Harte our local historian added this As to Brettgrave, the entries in our place-name file say: Brettgrauesherne c.1350 (CHC): the name Brettgraue, for which see Butcher’s Grove, with the secondary generic hyrne, ‘angle of land’. The northernmost point of the Epsom boundary, at the junction of Ruxley Lane and Chessington Road. This was also Wolfrenesherne c.1350 (CHC): hyrne, ‘angle of land of a woman called Wulfrūn’. Birchengrove Corner 1825 (VEW). The junction of Chessington Road and Ruxley Lane at Butcher’s Grove, q.v. Butcher’s Grove 1871 (OSM), Brettegraue, Bruttegraue, Burtegraue 1346/7 (CHC 207-8): beorht grāfa ‘bright copse’. [More forms from VCH?]. Cf. Leagrave in Bedfordshire, if the qualifier is leoht and not the personal name Lihtla (Mawer & Stenton, PN Bedfordshire & Huntingdonshire p154) and the three Lightwoods in Staffordshire (Horovitz, PN Staffordshire p362). The sense must be ‘thinly spaced wood, wood where the trees let light penetrate’. It is not clear, especially considering the form preserved in the secondary name Birchengrove Corner, q.v., whether the present name is a development of Brettegrave or a separate coinage. A new name from Sy dialect birchen ‘(wood) of birches’ would make sense - cf. Birchen Shaw in Farleigh (Gover, Mawer & Stenton, PN Surrey p316) - but it is more likely to be an extreme case of folk etymology. Cheers, Jeremy

[@josiecohen4079]

@@AllotmentFox It is a triangular boundary point….thats the only way I can describe it. It’s close to a Roman Villa and the Copthorne hundred meeting point ‘nut shambles’ ‘moutshambles’. Visually it’s something

[@josiecohen4079]

@@AllotmentFox Can I email you some images?

[@muddy11111]

Most interesting Not sure if this helps your initial thoughts, but just in case it does. Lower Pertwood, the estate map has a "Roman field" with a straight track to the East and to the West, but lost in the middle. Clearly won't help with the latter.

[@AllotmentFox]

where can I see the estate map? Pertwood is Celtic British (the first part) as well so I do want to have a look there

[@muddy11111]

@@AllotmentFox I you give me an email address I will send a copy. Original is in at Pertwood Organic Farm

[@muddy11111]

@@AllotmentFox Not sure why my first reply did not show up. Will send you a copy of the map via Paul, or the original is at Pertwood Organic farm.

[@AllotmentFox]

@@muddy11111 KZbin tends to remove comments with links in them

[@muddy11111]

​@@AllotmentFox I have sent two mails (avoiding key words that might have upset youtube) to @pwhitewick with Pertwood in the title, and asked him to copy to you. One is the map and the other the lidar. It is part of a Roman Road on the 1880's OS map. The Lidar looks very interesting. Please reply to one, so I know you have them.

[@scottmartinezguitarandbass]

Hello, have just discovered your channel, and as you deal with charters, I have a document from 1712 (during "the reign of Queen Anne") which is a land indenture, written on vellum with a seal. It is for a property located in Kent. Would you be interested in looking at it? I'd love to get the history or location of the place.

[@jukeseyable]

new sub, Paul Whitewick sent me, 😆

[@AllotmentFox]

Thank you for watching and subbing!

[@marieascot]

Out on the wiley windy moor..

[@alexandrasmith4393]

Just listened today to a minister teaching about where is Tarshish which is mentioned a number of times in scripture. He shows solid evidence for it being the British Isles, both from scripture and historical documents. It comes from the name for tin.

[@AllotmentFox]

the Bible is a fine, interesting historical document. unfortunately its scope is far from mine, though I did do a bit on a conversation between Solomon and a a Chaldean king recorded in Old English

[@iainmc9859]

My Bible scholarship isn't as good as it used to be but I'd say 1Ki 10:22 'For the king had at sea a navy of Tarshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tarshish, bringing gold, gems and silver, ivory, and apes and peacocks'. pretty much rules out Britain.

[@faithlesshound5621]

Which ideology is opposed to self-sufficiency on these islands? I would say it's the one that promotes outsourcing at almost all costs, as opposed to vertical integration. Outsourcing, "just in time" deliveries and all the rest started out as management fads in large industrial corporations, and became part of public policy when businessmen were brought in to give their wisdom to public services and government planners.

[@AllotmentFox]

It has to be a mixed economy. Contracting is as British as roast beef and has been around since we have had records. Does it betray the country? No, it ensures rigour. Does it betray a working class that was trusting its employers to be honourable? Yes, I have and will fight it tooth and nail. For me the deciding factor is, will I be working for the same employer as I interviewed for? If it is no then they can take a running jump but I have no problem with commissioners contracting out from the start but commissioners can also use it as a disciplining tool for the labour market. I guess it comes down to fair treatment: an honest commissioner is fine, some of the so-and-so’s I’ve come across makes it bad.

[@jim.bambury]

ASChart has some pre 900ad charter information. I've not really delved so can't comment on detail.

[@williamfunk656]

Countries, kingdoms and empires are generally undone from within. Carry on your research into History.

[@AllotmentFox]

No matter how much we screw it up ourselves-the Romano-British were defiinitely the authors of their misfortune-it is never as bad as the results of invasion. Yes Christianity not paying its taxes and diverting money from heirs helped both the Goths and the Vikings but you would still have looked back on the good old days when the saddle-wearing beardies were annoying you before the Barbarians took over. Before the Second World War the Oxford Union of Students opposed war with Germany because they felt it was about British imperialism. Everyone just ignored them and they fought anyway. What we are hearing today is the same hot air

[@faithlesshound5621]

@@AllotmentFox That Oxford Union debate made headlines all around the world and convinced the man with a moustache that Britain would be a pushover. In a way it contributed to WWII, though you could also say that it led to his making a fatal miscalculation.

[@stormx2827]

As someone who's been doing programming for 25 years, you're right that we're generally overcomplicating technology to the detriment of resilience. You're not quite right to say software used to be more secure - far from it! - you only need to remember CGI scripts or PHP's magic globals to consider how far we've come. But our software stacks are so much larger that the individual security improvements are cancelled out. Blame (venture) capitalism IMO. We'll never be a proper engineering discipline while they're running the show.

[@AllotmentFox]

Maybe its rose-tinted glasses but yes with a Perl script you could take over the server. But if it was securely written there was no way in. I remember stripping out anything from a text field that could in any way instruct anything to do anything. And admins were suspicious as hell about the svripts you were writing. I don’t remember big institutions being hacked the way they are now. Do you think a simple off the shelf content management system on UNIX in 1998 was less secure than whatever they use now?

[@stormx2827]

> Do you think a simple off the shelf content management system on UNIX in 1998 was less secure than whatever they use now? No, because what we use today is 100,000 layers of javascript tooling But if you compared something of similar complexity - say, one of today's popular static site generators like Hugo - you'll find the 1998 version vulnerable to SQL injections, shell injections, etc, that just aren't possible today because no-one is manually escaping SQL or shell arguments any more. That XKCD about bobby tables is hard to explain to young developers now.

[@stormx2827]

Hugo is kinda huge actually, there are other static site generators that would make better examples

[@stormx2827]

To be clear, I agree with your main point about the state of software engineering being complete shit. But it's not because we're writing worse code, it's a bit more complicated IMO.

[@AllotmentFox]

@@stormx2827 it was possible to understand every line of code server-side and client-side in my day. I was terrible, mind, but I was never hacked. The first time someone demonstrated SQL injection to me I went “oh!” And never forgot it.