Alternatives to Lightroom and Negative Lab Pro for Negative Conversion

[@andrewwilkin1923]

Hi Joe, you're right, Darktable has a steep learning curve. It's my standard editor as I run Linux and Adobe products are not available for that OS. The first step as you showed was to convert the negative but after that there are a heap of additional steps you can use in the negadoctor module to set the white and black point, colour balance for shadows and/or highlights individually and finally the finished "print" that includes paper grades. Not for the faint hearted but an incredibly powerful photo editor for both film scans and RAW.

[@JTobiason]

I totally believe that it is powerful and in that setup, that makes 100% sense. I just don't have the time or interest in learning a whole new system when I like what I already do. I'm glad the option exists for folks because it is rad, but just beyond what I'm in for.

[@andybarnard4575]

The negadoctor manual page is literally one page and tells you how it works. Get the white balance of the LED source correct and the colour of the film stock correct and it seems pretty good to me, very natural colouration. But I've not used anything else and like to read manuals!

[@palesmichael]

​@@JTobiason While being thankful for this nice video, it is worthless with this approach, isnt it? If you are unwilling to learn and then say its garbage because you didnt do the research, its not a good comparison. (Thank you for showing the alternatives regardless, I learned something). I agree with the Andrew that it has a VERY steep learning curve, but you can make it worth it. Especially after what adobe started doing. To be fair, it did cost me a lot of effort to get it how I wanted it and figure the tool (mostly) out. Maybe next time the metric we could look into: 1. the image right out of the tool. (Just flip the colors by the tools norm and compare those, leaving most on auto) 2. next metric probably should be the time you needed to set it up the way you like the photo Just by looking at your histogram result in the Darktable, it looks not well.

[@YeahItsThatBad]

Thank you for this. It is annoying that every single creator who talks about how to convert negatives just defaults to negative lab pro. I do not want to have to pay a subscription for this. I would rather just buy a single app and be done with it.

[@JTobiason]

Glad to help. Personally, I still think that Lr and NLP is the worth every cent, but I totally understand that they're not for everyone. Cheers!

[@Wilma5532]

NLP is not a subscription.

[@YeahItsThatBad]

@@Wilma5532 That's true, but NLP is not a standalone app right? It must be used with another app that requires a subscription.

[@cogs2937]

Thank you. Just started digitizing old negatives using Photoshop and it was very helpful to see this comparison of the other tools available. I have to say though that I thought your action did a fine job and I will be giving it a try.

[@JTobiason]

Glad it was helpful! It takes a minute to learn how to craft it to do what your vision is, but it's free. Enjoy!

[@FantasticOtto]

The Lomography tool is damn impressive! I've played around with it for a while now and you can actually do quite a lot with it. Instead of picking only the darkest and lightest spots in the photo, use these tools to try out different spots and then correct the brightness with the slider. Because they also function as white balance tools, you can actually get the temperature you want fairly easily. After just a minute or two of fiddling, I got several of my photos to look as good or even better than NLP (within the the capabilities of a JPEG naturally). I'm sure it has big limitations for more demanding photos, but for quick previews, or even a fun instagram type gallery, it's really good.

[@JTobiason]

Totally agree. It's so powerful and so fast. I really am impressed with it. Definitely is making me always shoot in RAW+JPEG when I'm scanning, just so I can easily try both options.

[@stanlau1749]

I've recently started shooting 135 just as a hobby and your videos have been really helpful! Looking forward to more of your content.

[@JTobiason]

Glad it helped! I just hope everyone can enjoy making art!

[@bardofhighrenown]

My problem with the Lightroom-based applications is that I already use Capture One and really prefer it for my normal digital editing and I don't want to buy a license to redundant software just to edit negatives, I will try using Filmlab and finishing in C1. Thanks for the video!

[@JTobiason]

Makes total sense if you're DSLR scanning. Good luck.

[@krustjeva]

I was very excited to find this, but when I try to use your action it says "eye dropper on outside of frame (i)" and doesn't work. Would be grateful for any input

[@JTobiason]

Glad to help. When you say it doesn't work, what happens. You should be able to just tap the i key on your keyboard and that will bring up your eye dropper. Then click on the outside of the frame (the film border). Then you can continue the action. If you have more troubles, feel free to DM me on IG at @jtobiason. That is just an easier messaging system than here.

[@woozyjoe4703]

I like your action the best. Good video. Thank you.

[@JTobiason]

Glad to help!!

[@AndreyPermitin]

Hi Joe, very nice video, thanks for sharing. It seems like there is no link to the video about Photoshop actions. Is it still up and I just haven't found it or it was deleted? I'm struggling a bit with Photoshop conversions, would like to have some new ideas :) thanks !

[@JTobiason]

Sorry for the confusion. Here is the link. It should still be in the description too. files.fm/u/txxxrzqs

[@scothu]

Thanks for the photoshop action! I was wondering, can all the layer adjustments after the auto contrast step be replaced with just the adobe camera raw step at the end?

[@JTobiason]

Maybe. Give it a shot. 👍 I am not near my computer to check it out myself.

[@AbdonPhirathon]

Negative Lab Pro looks the best out of the bunch. If Nate ever releases a standalone app it’ll be unbeatable.

[@JTobiason]

That'd be interesting. I definitely prefer Lightroom integration because it's what I use but that would be popular with lots of folks

[@AngusRShamal]

Hi! Thanks for this cool video. However, as an owner of both NLP/LR and FilmLab, I think you're selling FilmLab a little short here. Version 2.5 is a much more advanced and complete standalone product than you make it to be. Although at the moment lacking in incremental highlights/shadows control, it offers an intuitive folder based non-distractive workflow and probably the most convincing standalone package on your list. AND it gets better in time. We could argue about the "look" of the results, but (in my opinion) it has a much more convincing color-science and film reproduction to LR - much closer to what you get from Frontier scanners. Just my 2 cents. 🙂

[@JTobiason]

Totally fair. I definitely do see that they've improved things in V2.5 (this video was with a previous version). And I totally get it. And especially if you want to work with an all in one solution that works outside the LR system.

[@swagnemite552]

Have you maybe also tried the conversion built into vuescan? I does an ok job but I'm just trying to decide whether its worth using another program just for the inverting step, since I already use vuescan for scannign and LR for editing.

[@JTobiason]

It's been a long time since I've used that. Even before I stopped using a flatbed to scan, I found that using vuescan to scan positive DNG RAW files and then converting in NLP/LR was a better solution. I'm sure it's possible to get good results out of Vuescan and if it will create flat files that you can then edit in LR without using NLP, that's great. It just didn't work for me. Here is a video I made back in 2020 explaining how I used to do things. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m6mlgqyfnNalaK8

[@ianharper6015]

Thank you for a very helpful video.

[@JTobiason]

😀😀

[@therearviewr.tapper1771]

I use Capture one pro with a curve & styles i made that i tweak as i never felt NLP was worth the $99 but am looking for something better / cheaper so thanks for the vid! Off topic but i was listening to your video and you sound just like the lead character in Last Man on Earth played by Will Forte.

[@JTobiason]

Glad it was helpful. And Will Forte is a new one. That's hilarious.

[@c.augustin]

Interesting that your assessment of Film Lab resembles my own experiences (and it does not play well with the raw files from my Olympus Pen F digital). I made peace with the LR/NLP2 combination, as I found ways to incorporate it into my Adobe Bridge/Camera Raw workflow (using LR+NLP2 only as a converter, but keeping it functional so that I can change the conversion after having done other editing in ACR). ACR has come a very, very long way in the last 2 years (I prefer working in ACR instead of LR, but maybe I should give LR another try - but I don't like its dependence on a database and not having settings directly mirrored in the original files like ACR does).

[@JTobiason]

In use, basically ACR and LR are the same. They offer nearly identical setting options. And if you're worried about a centralized database for the edits, you can set LR to save an .XMP sidecar file so you don't have to worry about corruption.

[@c.augustin]

@@JTobiason Editing in LR is not as "slick" as using ACR directly (I tried, the interface is somewhat more clumsy in LR, at least on Windows), and LR actually complicates the way I'm working with image files. I prefer using Bridge/ACR and have LR only for NLP2. I did not find the XMP sidecar file option in LR, it might be a way to have LR behave more to my liking. (My disdain for database based apps is more due to lock-in than to corruption issues, I want to have access to anything without being dependent on specific apps.)

[@terryhopkins8059]

Hello Joe... I recent purchased a Optek 8200i 35mm film scanner. I want to scan all of my films that I shot from the 80s and 90s. I've been scanning my film to jpegs, but was wondering if it was worth it to scan as tiff? I've heard its better to edit tiffs over jpegs, but is it worth it to scan as tiff over jpeg when scanning 35mm film?

[@JTobiason]

That's a good question. I've scanned the family archives of both my and my wife's family. It took forever. So, do whatever is fastest. There are so many bad photos. Just get it done, which probably means jpegs. That'll be fine for 99% of the time (social, small photos in albums, etc). Then, I'd go back and re-scan and really nicely edit my favorite 20 photos that I wanted to actually do something with. But going forward, I'd say it depends on the device. I've never used an Optek, so I can't speak to experience. But if you don't feel that your scans need much editing afterwards, just do jpegs. If you need to edit a lot and really push the scan, use Tiffs.

[@terryhopkins8059]

@@JTobiason Thanks for the reply.... really appreciate it..!

[@just_eirik]

How come it’s not enough to just invert the tone curve? Doesn’t that get you the exact look of that specific film?

[@JTobiason]

The short answer is no. The long answer is "no but yes but kinda." While in BW you can simply invert the curve and you'll get pretty close as long as you don't clip highlights/shadows, the color balance in color is more finicky. If you simply invert color film, it'll turn out very blue (because of the orange film base). It takes some additional work to color-correct it to the scene. You can do that manually, but it's really hard. A simple conversion is basically what's happening with color darkroom printing, but even then, there is the color balance that is changed and the exposure time. And in color, exposure isn't simply adding more light, but will always adjust the way colors are rendered as well. Which again, adds complexity. With all of that complexity, that's where film conversion software comes in to help navigate that balancing to make images that look right.

[@c.augustin]

In addition to Joe's description: Color negative film (C-41) is designed for using the corresponding paper (RA-4) with its specific sensitivities to the colors in the negative film, and this isn't identical for the 3 colors used. If you give Joe's PS action a try (highly recommended, if only to get a better understanding of the process) you will see that after optimizing the contrast per color channel, the resulting curves (lines) have different inclinations; and the sensitivities are not strictly linear, causing changing color casts for dark/mid/light tones when handled with straight, linear curves. It is really messy. (I'm a bit out of my vocabulary here, I could give a better description in German …)

[@AbDaniel21]

17:51 that womanpic is dope!

[@JTobiason]

Thanks! That's one of my favorite portraits I've ever made.

[@AbDaniel21]

@@JTobiason i have tried now darktable, and its not as bad as you would think, some results are even better than negativelabpro is fine adjusted

[@endaguerin630]

your photoshop preset and negative lab pro are the only 2 I like here. For me its a draw and when I already have photoshop no need to get negative lab then, thank u for doing this work.

[@JTobiason]

Glad to help!

[@WideAppeal]

I'd never heard of digitaliza until I saw your video. It's not bad for what it is....

[@JTobiason]

Yea. For just a free thing, it's pretty great!

[@francoisaLeMans]

Hi, I tried the photoshop action and I get an error message "eye dropper on outside of frame (i)". I have photoshop 24.6 in french. Do you have any idea what's wrong? Thanks

[@JTobiason]

Hmm. That's an interesting one. I have had issues with stuff across languages before. I think I laid out how the action works in my original scanning video. You might want to just try the process yourself. Sorry. kzbin.info/www/bejne/hmazZnWHZp2ahck

[@gerromy222]

Hi Joe, great great review, thank you a lot!

[@JTobiason]

Of course! Thanks for watching!

[@jw48335]

raw -> Adobe Bridge -> Negmaster BR convert -> DxO Photolab

[@JTobiason]

Yup. Makes total sense. For non LR folks, this seems like a great option.

[@jw48335]

@@JTobiason Negmaster BR is basically automatic these days. I actually have Lightroom and negative lab pro as well, but I don't use them. When I do need light room for something, I still do the conversion out in Adobe Bridge - less work in editing later. I find that anywhere from 5 to 20%, negative lab pro goes poorly, and I end up having to fix the color. Much less of that with Negmaster - definitely the biggest difference in my opinion, consistency.

[@art2work4]

Have you've considered Grain2Pixel?

[@JTobiason]

I have a whole video on that one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jXempmlpebd1gdU

[@art2work4]

@@JTobiason Great , I'm just wondering how it would stand out in his comparison

[@davidmantripp]

Very helpful, thank you. I concur on FilmLab, honestly I think they're a bit out of their depth. There is one other standalone option, which has been around for at least 15 years - Silverfast HDR. It reads TIFFs, and its NegaFix tool is pretty good. It does need approaching with an open mind though - Silverfast very much does things its own way. Then again, there is no one true rendition of colour negative.

[@JTobiason]

Glad that was useful. I tried Silverfast a few years back when I was using a flatbed for scanning. I haven't tried it with images from my DSLR setup. There definitely are folks who get good results out of that.

[@markwalkerphotography]

Have you looked at Silverfast?

[@JTobiason]

I could be wrong but I've only seen silverfast do conversions while scanning. I tried it a few times in the past when i used a flatbed but now that i only use DSLR scanning, I'm not sure it can do the conversion.

[@Pierceb2]

@@JTobiasonI think Silverfast HDR which is a standalone program can do it from DSLR scan / raw file.

[@АлексаМладић]

To be honest Darktable Negadoctor is the best option, you are just not experienced enough with it... For a good conversion you just need white balance and negadoctor modules, then you save the preset and apply it to other photos. Other modules are unnecessary!

[@JTobiason]

Maybe. I'm glad it works for you. I spent a few hours trying to understand it and it just doesn't fit my brain. I'm glad you get good results.

[@slothsarecool]

I guess the most “true to film” would be strictly removing the color cast from the base, and nothing else

[@JTobiason]

ok.

[@slothsarecool]

I feel like nobody knows what film looks like at this point 😅, it’s all a lie

[@JTobiason]

Is it a lie or is it a starting point? Whether you simply do a "perfect" film conversion or you make a print from a RAW file, you're probably not maximizing what you want from the photo.

[@slothsarecool]

@@JTobiason I agree, just teasing, I love/shoot film all the time 😁

[@cecilsharps]

a better freeware choice might be rawtherape . I use it because paper is expensive and digital contact sheets aren't.

[@JTobiason]

Interesting. I'll have to check it out.

[@zeballos5757]

PS Action and Filmlab looked the best to me. In that order.

[@JTobiason]

I'm glad the action looks good. I'm proud of that one. And use the ones that you like. That's the point of art.

[@zeballos5757]

@@JTobiason hi thanks for the reply. I’m just getting started on this. I ordered a digital film scanner set. It arrived yesterday. I have PS and LR. Just doing a bit more research before I get started. This comparison review was really helpful. Thanks 🙂

[@Liamoz01]

negmaster is the goat

[@JTobiason]

It's super powerful

[@RoryChapman]

Late tot he party, but i gotta say you did darktable a huge injustice there. Negadoctor is genuinely amazing at conversions and if you had used the rest of the tools in that section, which are very easy to use, you would have been very impressed.

[@JTobiason]

I'm glad it works for you. There must be something I just don't understand about that module. I've spent a few hours trying to figure it out, but it just doesn't click for me.

[@RoryChapman]

@@JTobiason It took me a few tries to figure out and understand Darktable. I still think it's incredibly clunky and awkward to use, but Once you set up your own loadout and figure the modules out, it's genuinely brilliant. I have Lightroom, but these days I never use it for processing negatives. Darkroom is my go-to for that now.

[@rjbiii]

I've never seen anyone who can make sense of darktable's negadoctor

[@JTobiason]

Judging by the comments, some people can, but my brain definitely doesn't get it. To each their own. 🤷‍♂️

[@lensman5762]

Its just not NLP that piggybacks on LR so requires the user to subscribe, almost all the plugins are like this and a double waste of money, because if you one day decided to stop the subscription or Adobe started to get super greedy again, these plugins are of no use and you loose your money. There is also a problem with standalone software particularly with regards to Apple. Apple Operating Systems have for some time now been upgraded to take advantage of the latest hardware sort of speak and are not backward compatible. The stand alone software has to keep up with the Apple operating systems, so there is a short limit to how long a stand alone software remains usable as the latest operating system may not work on the slightly older hardware. These guys are all connected to each other and cooperate on a research and development level. Obsolescence is built in by all the usual suspects, or a company might find itself shut out of the company of wolves.

[@billlouis9471]

Filmlab

[@JTobiason]

They have released a few updates since I made this video. From what I've read, it sounds like they've made it a lot better.

[@mvonwalter6927]

I think the biggest audience for not wanting to spend $20 a month on Light Room Classic might be Fuji users. Xtrans files look so much better in Capture One. Paying for two editing platforms kinda stinks. Otherwise I would have no problem dropping $99 on NLP.

[@JTobiason]

I've always been interested in trying Capture One but it is that same price thing that keeps me from doing it. Can't justify both.

[@GerhardBothaWFF]

Darktable. Darktable. Come over to the dark side....

[@JTobiason]

Enjoy. Im glad it works for folks. I've never gotten my head around it.

[@GizmoMaxx]

Im reading the comments and I wonder, how many of the "experts' looking into a Professional Calibrated monitor with 10bit colour depth ?.....🤣

[@JTobiason]

Haha. Truth

[@dummag4126]

None, only the best is Negative Lab Pro

[@JTobiason]

haha. I do agree that NLP is still the 🐐