Am I a Zen Priest?

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[@Ope_itsadam]

I refer to myself as a "wannabe monk." I think it's the most accurate description.

[@Octoberfurst]

Same here!

[@bakedutah8411]

Adam Hayes, I reckon a key part of the question at hand is not how you refer to yourself, but how _others_ do. And in particular, how do that particular set of “others” called, variously, _The Powers That Be,_ _Them Upstairs,_ _The Academy,_ etc, refer to you.

[@Ope_itsadam]

@@bakedutah8411 I would agree.

[@zenaudio108]

I like this answer a lot, Brad, and think it is true that there are several pathways to go after Shukke Tokudo and dharma transmission. Some people may see their role as priests, some as teachers or communicators, others get more involved with the minutiae of Zen history, lineage and writings, others may focus on sewing craft etc. I am not fond of ritual but recognise the need to know it, at least to some degree. Also, I concur that people will tell you stuff and not all of it will be easy. If you are going to be this kind of priest, and probably even if you don't intend to, get yourself some counselling skills. You will be glad you did.

[@HardcoreZen]

Thanks. That's how I think of it too.

[@chrislasagna]

Barry Magid talks about this stuff sometimes with regard to "Zen teacher" vs "Zen priest." He calls himself a zen teacher because he doesn't do the temple rituals like you mentioned.

[@jirjasirka99]

Brad, just an offtopic: Maybe you already answered the question, but anyway, do you know whether Dogen taught his monks any preliminaries (chanting, studying, washing dishes or whatever) before engaging in the real deal of the formal sitting of zazen? Thanks and take care

[@HardcoreZen]

There is a chapter in Shobogenzo about the proper way to chant sutras. There is also a chapter about washing and one about using the toilet. So we can assume he taught his monks these things and more. But it also seems as if zazen was practiced right from the very first day a monk entered his group. In other words, these practices can't be called "preliminary" to zazen practice. They were part of the overall training that also included zazen right from the beginning. You can read BENDOWA for more about Dogen's attitude toward practicing zazen without requiring any prior training.

[@lorenacharlotte8383]

Bear all in mind that Brad is only explaining zen in the Soto tradition from Japan and not other zen traditions from other countries such as Vietnam, China...

[@MattHelps]

I am thinking Monk Punk is a good term. :)

[@dankappus7004]

You've chosen to answer this based on what Japanese norms are. It would be fun to hear you comment on what the norms and conflicts about this are in the US.

[@mattsmartialartsmadness5285]

I practice (I guess that's the right word) Jodo Shinshu Buddhism and we use a lot of English terms. For example the main collection of "temples" here are part of Buddhist Churches of America and most individual locations use the term "church" rather than temple. We use the term Minister to describe the main individual running the church. The most common title used is "Reverend." We use a "service book," services usually meet on Sundays, our services often include western style Hymens/ singing (as well as Chanting and recitation in Japanese), etc. What I have been taught is that this primarily came about in reaction to the anti-Asian and anti-Japanese sentiments leading up to the 1940s. It was decided to make Jodo Shinshu more appealing or to at least conform to a western mindset of religion (as Jodo Shinshu is a "faith" based branch of Buddhism). It is interesting to hear the differences and similarities. Thank you.

[@starshiptexas]

I have been watching kung fu the legend continues and they call him a "shaolin priest" and it bothers me more than it should. I guess it makes sense though if you're actually officiating stuff and doing ceremonies for people. Another word I've heard in the theravada tradition for a person in charge of the monastery is abbot, kind of similar.

[@conradg1207]

I think the answer is yes

[@DrewBoswell]

Thanks for this one. Quite clear and concise and easy to understand. When I went through a Tokudo ceremony over a decade ago, I had no idea what it meant (beyond the obvious). On the rare occasions that someone would ask me about it, my best analogy to Christian church ceremonies was to say that it's more serious than just joining a church, but less serious than becoming a minister. The people with whom I was practicing on a regular basis didn't refer to themselves as priests or monks or anything else in particular. The only "title" anyone might have ever used was "practice leader" which was basically whoever was leading the chants that day.

[@markbrad123]

If you want to do weddings and funerals check out : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ministers_of_the_Universal_Life_Church

[@ReubenBruchez]

The priestcraft piece is a very real part of what it should mean, on some level, to be considered a Zen Priest. I am working under the title of Practice Group Leader. I took shukke tokudo, and I do not consider myself a Zen Teacher, yet. My mokugyo pace was taught to allow for time to allow the doshi to make prostrations, so I always, even when leading a practice group without a doshi, chant the Heart Sutra without referencing the page and strike the mokugyo to allow time for an invisible doshi to rise and perform the prostrations that would be offered. This would get me in trouble if this was done where the pace for the doan is expected to be faster, because there is no assumption of prostration during the Heart Sutra.

[@HardcoreZen]

I think it's pretty much the standard practice that when you don't have a doshi, you do the ceremonies in pretty much the same way and at the same pace as when a doshi is present.

[@SeanThompsonDC]

Great video! In the West similar terms are minister, deacon, reverend, chaplain, etc. Priest usually is for those that do ceremonies. . I, for example was ordained as a minister/chaplain, (Chan tradition technically, not Japanese Zen) but have to refer as a priest (because of my work). I am in no way a monk... I always feel like a monk would be one that constantly dresses, works and acts 'as a monk'... It is an interesting and confusing conversation, so now I am going to get the book....

[@HardcoreZen]

Let me know what the book says!

[@bayreuth79]

Do you have an opinion about Doishin Roshi? He _does_ call himself a Zen Master and as far as I can tell he is a fraud.

[@HardcoreZen]

I've never heard of him. But I am skeptical of anyone who calls him- or herself a "Zen Master." It's possible that sometimes it's just the relatively innocent use of a poorly translated term. Still, it's a red flag for me.

[@MukeshKumar-dg9vo]

Hi Brad, Thank you for your videos. They all are direct and honest. I was wondering if you can make a video of how to practice Zazen and difficulties during Zazen? Also it would be great if you can make videos about Sitting posture and on each chapters of shobogenzo. I think I am being greedy and asking too much 😃

[@HardcoreZen]

My teacher made a video about how to do zazen. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pKSpnaWajbt5ndE I'm not sure what specific difficulties I could do videos about. I think a lot of my videos are about difficulties in zazen. As for a video on each chapter of Shobogenzo... I'm not sure a video would be adequate. I did write three books about Shobogenzo -- Sit Down and Shut up, Don't Be a Jerk, and It Came From Beyond Zen.

[@marcel-1210]

In Buddhist/religious studies, members of the 'clergy' in Japan would be called priests rather than monks because in a general Buddhist setting the term monk or nun implies that they follow the vinaya. Lay Buddhists who received ordination would then be termed ordained lay Buddhists (or historically, lay priests).

[@HardcoreZen]

What do they call them in Japanese, though? I have never heard any term other than "bouzu," which is applied to both what we in the west would think of as "priests" and what we would think of as "monks." I may be missing something, though. Maybe there is a distinction that can be made in Japanese. Is there?

[@marcel-1210]

To be honest, I don't speak Japanese well enough to know if there is another term used only for monastic and not for priests. I also heard the term 'souryo' before but maybe this can also be used for priests.

[@croftperkins]

Interesting.

[@edgepixel8467]

You look better with hair. Boozu? Yeah, it's only a red nose away from making complete sense :))

[@dre.v.8383]

Hi Brad. Have a question about this. Maybe has not sense after watching this video... anyway. Don't like labeling. Just wondering if you have any thoughts about taking vows for a lay person (bodhisattva) or monk? Someone told me once that nowdays has no sense because occidental practice is carried on every day life. Once I read that Deshimaru told once that taking vows were irrelevant but in other time answered that does it matter. Any thoughts about it? Thank you

[@HardcoreZen]

I think you are asking about JUKAI, the ceremony in which one makes a public vow to live by the Buddhist precepts. This is a very old tradition within Buddhism. It might be one of the earliest Buddhist traditions. These days both lay people and monks do this ceremony. I think it depends on the individual to decide if it's important or not. Making a public commitment to do something can be a very powerful motivator. For example, if I went on Facebook and announced that I intend to lose ten pounds, then I would feel very strongly motivated to lose ten pounds. It's the same with Jukai. If a person makes a public vow to live by the Buddhist precepts, that person will (usually) feel very motivated to live by the Buddhist precepts.

[@sceptre1067]

jukai, imo, sounds like confirmation in the xtian sense. you agree to live by those rules... but yeah no special status.

[@lorenacharlotte8383]

Regardless of Brad Official tittles, his best valuable assets under my point of view is that he has many years of experience as a practitioner. He has kept as a diligent person in the practice. He’s a very good asset to any beginner searching for a Teacher. He doesn’t have thousands and thousands of students but just a few. And this also tick the box towards quality and attention to the student. Once he becomes famous and rich, let him go.

[@HardcoreZen]

Then how am I supposed to get rich and famous? How can I get rich & famous if everybody lets me go?

[@lorenacharlotte8383]

Hardcore Zen : Last sentence was a joke.

[@bobg.7976]

Hi, can you recommend a book about Zen in Japan thru the centuries? It’s role in society? For instance, I remember in Clavell’s Shogun the samurai practiced Zen. Also, how Chinese Ch’an evolved/ morphed in Japanese society? Thanks, Bob

[@chrislasagna]

DT Suzuki wrote a book called Zen in Japanese Culture. Haven't read it in years but I remember it was pretty interesting.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@chrislasagna the Catholic priest Heinrich Dumoulin did some fine studies on the history of Zen, only don`t know which ones were translated into English. His "Geschichte des Zen-Buddhismus" (in two volumes) is very informative, contains many data (biographical, technical terms etc.). D.T. Suzuki is, i.m.o., often too apologetic (taints of "National Zen"), some of his translations of older scriptures are often not very exact. On the other hand, he was one of the first "Zenists" who used/mentioned Dunhuáng-manuscripts, so at least his "Essays on Zen" (3 vol.s, 1920/30ies) are in parts interesting reading, albeit not up-to-date, and some interpretations are rather specific. The book on Zen in Japanese Culture presents some interesting primary sources, but Suzuki`s general tendency towards creating a kind of Pan-Zenism, linking Chàn/Zen to the "Japanese soul" is rather fiction than science and, i.m.o., politically problematic - and he has a strong Rinzai-bias, he mentions in his "Essays..." Dôgen and Sôtô-Zen only one or two times on the ca. 1500 pages of text he produced. Bernhard Faure did some very interesting and well founded scientific studies - he learned much from Yanagida Seizan in Japan -, like "Chan Insights and Oversights" (1991), albeit the texts are sometimes not easy to understand, because he let himself be inspired by some post-modernist thinkers, yet, i.m.o., he developed out of this a very interesting, positively critical approach.

[@chrislasagna]

@@gunterappoldt3037 very informative reply, thank you 👍

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@chrislasagna My pleasure!

[@gunterappoldt3037]

Forgot to mention two older standard references: Chang Chen-chi, "The Practice of Zen" (1959), and Kenneth Ch`en, "Buddhism in China" (1963 ), and for people interested in socio-history: Cornelis Jan Kuiken, "The Other Neng" (Reichsuniversität Groningen, Diss., available as pdf).

[@osip7315]

all this stuff sounds like a religion, i don't know why anyone can claim zen and buddhism are not religions

[@imja_]

It's just traditions and rituals. There are also traditions and rituals in secular world too, like graduating from the school where you will be wearing weird robes and hats, for example. For some reason humans feel that rituals are important. Same thing with statuses. I think that why zen is often called non religion is because it doesn't say that you should just blindly believe things, just encourages to practice and see the results by yourself.

[@osip7315]

@@imja_ isn't practice a belief ? i've seen the results, its makes outright crazies of the only slightly insane

[@cmdreltonpoole6303]

@@osip7315 Keep digging. You'll get there.

[@edgepixel8467]

It definitely sounds like a religion. People who claim it's not, simply don't like their previous one.

[@imja_]

@@osip7315 I think that practicing meditation is more like scientific method, you do a thing and see what the results are. Then repeat many times. You are not supposed to expect or even less believe that you will get certain results until if you get them.

[@FlameRedCat]

I would liken Jukai to a Catholic Confirmation. In both cases you “receive” a name. Just a thought...

[@HardcoreZen]

It is somewhat similar. You vow to follow the rules and you get a new name.

[@ossy43]

A Japanese name

[@nedstarkravingmad1799]

I agree with the Taiwanese restaurateur. The sad thing about Soto Zen is the emphasis on priestcraft, tradition, and ritual, and not on The Dharma and the precepts. You can be a "Zen monk" and drink, use drugs, have all kinds of illicit sex, eat meat, etc. I know Zen Masters. They are celibate, sober, vegetarians.

[@ruairi_]

you can master Zen huh? Cool

[@nedstarkravingmad1799]

@@ruairi_ A Zen Master is merely a monk skilled in instruction of meditation. I guess Zen is used because it is a word more familiar to English speakers, more precisely they would be Chan or Thien or Seon masters. It is a very common term in many Asian countries and the traditions that come from them. If we were being pedantic, no, none of them would probably claim to have "mastered Zen", they are recognized as "masters" of instructing Zen, analogous to a master carpenter or master seaman. The difficulties in translation could cause semantic opportunities if one wished to be argumentative.

[@ruairi_]

@@nedstarkravingmad1799 oh I know

[@Tulks]

Why don't you refer to yourself as a monk? You are a monk, in a modern world, a modern life, are you not? I know we associate monk with monastery's and all that kind of cast away solitude stuff, but in this culture, in this place, at this time, that isn't very much a thing. But there are many people committed to the dharma, and living in a way that is increasingly free and sane, and standing for, living as sanity, in the face of mindless insanity all around us. I guess the word monk has a lot of hubub (connotation), so it may not serve the situation... On the other hand, there's something intriguing about people coming out of the closet to this culture and offering/legitimizing a different way to live life. Maybe people who don't even know it yet may get a seed of inspiration planted somewhere in them, that this culture may not be as monolithic as they assumed, that you may serve as an example of something different, legitimizing their truth rebellion in a small way, perhaps. *shrug* maybe I'm just being dramatic, cue the punk music.

[@HardcoreZen]

It's the hubbub. There's always someone who says, "You're no a monk!" according to whatever criteria they use to define the word.

[@davosseaworth7377]

For someone who has never lived within a monastic setting, who never left home and who "recieved the dharma" from a salary man, do you really think you have any authority or experience to comment on these things? Stick to shilling your books and making videos about how enlightened you are.

[@HardcoreZen]

Huh?

[@wadecleveland9001]

Whether or not Brad Warner is a regular person or an enlightened being is ENTIRELY up to me. If Brad appears to me as a Mandala deity then that is a valid perception because everything is empty of inherent existence.

[@imja_]

Does regular person have a buddha nature?

[@marcblonde3800]

You're a 50 year old man who still wears hoodies, so the question should be, "Am I even an adult?"

[@theswayzeexpress1]

You post randomly negative comments on KZbin videos. So there's that

[@marcblonde3800]

@@theswayzeexpress1 I'm not a teacher so there's that too.

[@HardcoreZen]

Hoodies are warm and comfy.

[@marcblonde3800]

@@HardcoreZen How about your sitting, is that warm and comfy too? I bet you follow your zazen with some warm milk and cookies.

[@HardcoreZen]

@@marcblonde3800 Not usually.