American La France - V12 Project - Major Setback!

[@classicrider5274]

Having seen how dry and dirty the good valve stem was, I would strip the lot and give I good clean up and valve seat grind. More work but at least I would be confident about the condition of that part of the engine. Good luck with your plan, looking forward to watching progress.

[@thebracketfactory]

It is all a bit grim.... time for another beer....

[@bernardreeves5028]

Love your vids, satisfyingly ambitions, nicely filmed and to the point, no waffle.👍

[@thebracketfactory]

Thanks Bernard!

[@dennismccarthy7032]

Great mini series ❤brilliant.

[@thebracketfactory]

Glad you are enjoying it Dennis!

[@helentaylor6032]

This valve should work A.E. valve RVE 794788C(in South Africa) head 41.10 stem 8.935 length 144.80 it's from a Mercedes-Benz If you use a 9mm hand reamer for the guide . Then hold the valve on the stem and machine it down to 8.6 where the retainers go then cut the grooves for the retainers before cutting it to length.

[@thebracketfactory]

Thanks, really appreciate the help there.

[@garrickroyle5675]

Always one step forward, one step back! You will get there you are very thorough! Sure you will be able to source a valve! Thanks for sharing!

[@thebracketfactory]

Thanks Garrick! It's when it's one it's one step forward and TWO steps back I am worried about !!

[@Mopar46]

What can I say? It'll live again. Vive La France!!!

[@thebracketfactory]

'It'll be alright in the end!!! (and if it's not alright, it's not the end....)

[@HoSR98]

Rebuild. I’m sure you will end up doing it anyway. Thoroughly enjoying following your progress.

[@thebracketfactory]

I think you could be right!!! Glad you are enjoying it.

[@oakswamp]

mmmmmm the journey takes another turn .....Chris, we all really want you to start this monster ...keep diggin bro

[@thebracketfactory]

Cheers Bryan.. by hook or by crook, I will start the big ol’ girl and you shall be guest of honour!

[@talbot8907]

Good luck with it. No doubt you'll overcome each setback. Par for the course with old engines.

[@thebracketfactory]

Thanks! Wouldn't be any fun if it was all shiny and new!!

[@StefanMarjoram]

Always a bit heartbreaking when a problem appears - but on the plus side - you have another episode :) Good luck. Looking forward to the next one!

[@thebracketfactory]

The 'Grande Finale' may end up being me and Bryan rolling the thing off Beachy Head!

[@StefanMarjoram]

@@thebracketfactory haha, hope it won't be that bad :)

[@davidsamways]

About 30 years ago I contacted what was then Associaed Engineering (the AE brand seen on big end shells etc.) as I was looking for a valve for my 1932 Sunbeam Model 9. They were extremely helpful and although they couldn't find an exact match sent several valves (including for a Rolls Royce engine!) FOC which could be modified to suit - which is what I did. AE are now part of the DRiV group and publish a very comprehensive looking valve catalogue which gives details of head and stem diameter and length. I had a quick search for a 40mm valve - of which there are many, but I suspect your biggest problem will be finding something 130mm or longer. A call to the helpline may take the pain out of searching the catalogue for all potentially modifiable valves. It is possible to have new heads welded onto the valve stem - it sounds a bit gimcrack, but I know it is done for classic BMW boxer valves - can't remember the name of the specialist now, but Motoworks would point you in the right direction if you wanted to research this route. For what it's worth, my approach would be to sort out the brocken valve and then get the thing running before doing anything else. Good luck.

[@tamarmolerick3814]

Really enjoying this. There must be a near fit valve available which you can machine. If you are going to sort that valve and its seat you might as well do a top end strip prior to firing it up.

[@thebracketfactory]

I am scouring the Internet, fuelled by Leffe!!

[@grahamfield4753]

My experience with old engines/gearboxes would lead me to go the 'full Monty'. You never know what bodge/fatigued/out of spec/broken bits are waiting. Have to be a bit OCD otherwise always wondering 'wot next' ... Great channel BTW ..

[@thebracketfactory]

I will need a few more beers before embarking on the full Monty Graham!

[@brettlittle9913]

General consensus seems to be rebuild it,I’m inclined to agree,the valve seat maybe beyond recutting in that position and with the head off you have more options,it looks a bit dry and crusty anyway and possibly other valves might be on the verge parting company,easy for me to say I’m not the one having to source rare parts,best of luck bud,at least with the net now it’s easier to find stuff if ya pocket is deep enough,👍

[@thebracketfactory]

'Crusty' is definitely the word! Wanna buy a V11? ;-)

[@brettlittle9913]

@ lol,not sure what I’d put it in,I think spares are still available in the states but getting spares sent over can be a expensive business,as a owner of pair of 50s American cars can testify to paying 10 dollars for something and 50 dollars to get it sent and then robbed with import duty,looking forward to you getting that engine sorted,👍

[@keithgarland3404]

Another option, turn a replacement valve up, on your lathe. Although you still have the valve seat issue. From a cost, time, and tooling issue, I know you just want to hear the engine run. But you know, best practice would be a complete strip down of the engine etc, whatever you do, I look forward to it 👍

[@thebracketfactory]

Cheers Keith, yes... best practice would indeed be a full strip, clean and re-build... but.... I need a beer first!

[@gavinsansom6266]

Ooohhh the intrigue!!! Loving what you are doing and for me I’d have to have it all in bits because if you don’t do it now, you know future Chris will have to 👍🏻

[@thebracketfactory]

I may have to apologise to future Chris in advance!

[@gavinsansom6266]

@ haha I’m sure he’ll forgive you

[@triumphrider230]

Avidly following, cannot wait to hear this run, fingers crossed for you

[@thebracketfactory]

I can't wait too - I *did* plan to have it running by the end of Oct. Time for a re-plan!

[@triumphrider230]

@@thebracketfactory I have a couple of bikes that have gone that way, so I get it, but yours is on a much grander scale. Good luck, the end result will be truly spectacular.

[@hanssundkvist]

👍👍👍

[@johngibson3837]

Strip clean and check, gasket's can be made and valves/bearings etc will cross reference to something else with maybe light machine work required, years ago was of to IOM next day. Discovered a broken ring moto guzzi 850 went to engine shop and old fella looks in his book and tells me ford granarda diesel rings match up, they even had them in stock so was on the ferry as planned

[@thebracketfactory]

Cheers John - were there is a will, there's a way!!

[@daviddjerassi]

HAHAha love your attitude no panic just write a plan if your serious about this engine running in a special which i think you are strip it and re build it fixing issues as they present i wish you every luck with the build you 100% deserve it love the video thanks.

[@thebracketfactory]

So far the plan is 'drink more beer first'....

[@daviddjerassi]

@@thebracketfactory 🤣YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

[@iancrawford2822]

There's a good argument for running it on 11 cylinders to ascertain if there are other issues with the engine. As you say, it may have been unwittingly run on 11 cylinders without anyone noticing but removed for other reasons. Hope for the best, plan for the worst and all that..

[@thebracketfactory]

With those massive manifolds, it must have been impossible to tell it was only running on 11... the damage shows that it had been doing that for a loooong time! Got a feeling the old girl has more in store for me...

[@stephenbamber7408]

Cyiinder leakage test as the other valve removed look poor. That will also give some info on rings & pistons. As for the crank.................

[@thebracketfactory]

yeah... got a feeling this old girl has got more surprises up her sleeve!

[@boydsargeant7496]

Good luck!

[@thebracketfactory]

Thanks Boyd... I think I'll need it!

[@anthonygrodecki7968]

Yep I would strip it down make new gaskets improve the flow in and out check all bearings, oil ways and mating surfaces.

[@thebracketfactory]

You'd tune it as well! I like your style Anthony!!

[@stevefairbanks835]

My OCD would force me to do a full engine strip down, re the valves, I worked for an engineering company that made battery assembly machines, we bought some valves made to order from Poland, I can’t remember the name though

[@thebracketfactory]

Can I deliver the engine to you Steve!!

[@peterborchert-i7k]

Given its age, unknown history and condition you can’t really assume anything. It needs a full breakdown and inspection. A decoke valve grind top end rebuild a minimum. But then the bottom end really needs inspection too. Would have been nice though to see it run! Love your videos proper workshop engineering and humour - thank you.

[@thebracketfactory]

Thank you Peter. The 'Plan' is being worked on.... lots of beer being consumed...

[@colinwellman9480]

All your choices have merits. Unless time and money are no object then a full rebuild but if it were mine I'd like to know how the engine sounds so would get it started and then decide. You may find some valve stems/ guides are very worn so you could need more valves. It would also be nice to hear if any of the ends, mains are noisy and that the oil pump and filter is doing it's job. Once you know this you can decide what to do. Whichever way, I'm sure it'll be another interesting video.

[@thebracketfactory]

I think that's my thinking Colin... don't mind doing a head re-build, but would be nice to know there are no other major issues first..!

[@robbell4339]

My hunch is to strip down the top end and rebuild. Bet the valve guides have gone too and if you’re in that deep, you could source replacement valves from another engine that’ll fit with a little machining?

[@thebracketfactory]

Got a feeling that I may end up going down that route!

[@johnnypeter1835]

If the engine was mine, I would fix the valve seat, find a new/used valve, lap them together, try to start the engine, as you mention yourself, there are so many other things that could be wrong. if it can start and run reasonably, you can put your time/energy into other more important things. good luck :-)

[@thebracketfactory]

leaning that way Johnny!

[@peterdering4922]

Hi, i'm not sure if its exactly the same engine but Grind Hard Plumbing on youtube has just recently removed an engine from a La France fire engine and i believe they are going to replace it with a Perkins diesel engine. i don't think they have any plans to use it so maybe they would consider selling parts.

[@thebracketfactory]

Thanks Peter - I'll head over to Grind Hard and see what that one is!

[@plainnpretty]

I don’t have any valves to fit it sorry. Since this motor is the inspiration for you building a car from scratch. My first thought is I’d put in a new / old valve fix the seat and see if she would run . I’d want to know I had a running engine before I done the work of building a car Then later in the build you can rebuild the motor after you have put it in and out of the frame multiple times like you have to do for a project like this . Thanks

[@thebracketfactory]

I'm deffo leaning that way...!

[@peterlobb6456]

a nice little quote from Kermode and Mayo there 😀

[@thebracketfactory]

I live by that one!!

[@georgeclements2742]

Getting a replacement valve may be a problem, but the valve seat itself may be more difficult. As the valve head has been banging around so much, the seat must be thoroughly hammered, and there doesn't appear to be a lot of material to work with. I'm sure that you'll find a way. I doubt that you would be satisfied with a motor running on 11 cylinders. Good luck and best wishes.

[@thebracketfactory]

yes, the seat has taken a pounding.. I need to get a valve seat cutter on it and see how bad it is...

[@warnz9701]

Not sure how much time you want to invest in it, but if it were mine and I wanted the project to last, I would strip and clean everything so I knew what I had. Starting and running it without knowing what you have is always a risk.

[@thebracketfactory]

I don't mind sinking time and money into it... but would be nice to know there are no lurking 'show stoppers'! Got a funny feeling that this motor has more to 'give'!!!!

[@mikeadams7829]

You could get a blank valve and machine it to suit . Maybe you could find a valve from a more modern engine and modify it to suit . My 1937 Riley 12/4 has Nissan inlet valves and Mitsubishi exhaust.

[@thebracketfactory]

shhhh, don't tell the purists!! But yes, I'll settle for anything that is close..

[@DavidLucas-hf1cx]

My machinist and old engine buddy would tell me.. “don’t sweat the little shit!” (The guy worked on everything from jet trucks and race cars to old tractors and everything in between ) meaning fix the valve.. and address the problems as they come.. in the end, it’s a giant lump of ‘ol American iron that you’re never gonna push to the limit.. not building a race car and it will never be moving a 10,000 pound fire engine, just an old torque monster in a light chassis… I think he may be right in this case…

[@thebracketfactory]

Sounds like my kind of bloke!

[@davidHayward-p8f]

If it were me.....I would find a replacement valve, put it back together and try for a start. I faced the same dilemma earlier in the year with a 7 cylinder radial I bought - strip, inspect and re build or give it a whirl. Looking in the exhaust ports, the valves were in a shocking state, but having got the mags and booster coil working and cleaned out the carb, it was coaxed back in to life, clearing out 40+ years of oil and crud, and ran fine there after....

[@thebracketfactory]

Thanks David - I am learning that way I think!

[@joeedwards9721]

I'd go plan B, fit a valve then see where your at, if it's ok happy days, if not you're not really any further behind 👍

[@thebracketfactory]

yeah - there is only so much time and money I can sink into this motor!

[@besenzon1]

Nail biting stuff 😬. In theory the engine needs to be rebuilt but I’m more of a “not broke, don’t fix it” guy. Especially when parts are going to be difficult to get and expensive 💰💰

[@thebracketfactory]

Haha - yes, it's been a bit of a rollercoaster ride... just hope the don't fly off the rails!

[@classicsrule8651]

i would replace the valve and cut the seat. perform a leak down and compression test, wet and dry, to determine how deep you need to go. hopefully luck is on your side.

[@thebracketfactory]

Thanks.... I'm hoping lady luck might pay me a visit!

[@andreweason2679]

The valve stem will probably be this clearance diameter to fit a 3/8” valve guide as this is easily reamed to size using standard reamers 🤔

[@thebracketfactory]

Thanks Andrew.

[@flatusinteruptus]

Have a look at a gen III Chrysler 5.7L exhaust valve , 1.575 diameter head , 5.125 length ( have to shorten) stem diameter is 8mm so you would need a new valve guide , and are they available in the UK ? Something to ponder

[@thebracketfactory]

Thanks! I'll take look at those valves.

[@peterbonnez]

Full Monty for me

[@thebracketfactory]

That’s a popular choice Peter…

[@johnwall3234]

Hi Chris, this may be totally mad but have you thought about trying to reach out to Jay Leno? He has an American La France fire truck in his collection, of a similar vintage to your engine. If anyone would have a contact for sourcing spares, it would be him and he is always saying how much he likes to help enthusiasts.

[@thebracketfactory]

Hi John , I could give it a go... (but not holding my breath!!)

[@paulmyhill4158]

I would do a compression test first and take it from there it might also pay to remove that other head with the broke spark plug , Easier to remove it on the bench. I guess if you can get a standard exh valve you might need to get a exh insert machined to fit looks like its beaten that seat for a while. Looks like Eaton Valves still exist might be worth a call to them old stock or a lead to who had spares or part numbers.

[@thebracketfactory]

Cheers Paul - I did google Eaton but it seems they have gone big and industrial now. As many have said, I should be able to find a valve that is at least similar.

[@RutherfordRyan1]

Custom extractor exhaust manifolds and intake manifolds…stainless..

[@thebracketfactory]

I am deffo getting rid of the massive cast exhaust manifolds... one is cracked anyway!

[@blackhouseengineering5386]

Unless you're confident in sourcing parts I would repair as required and not worry too much if it's a bit smokey or not as powerful as a new one. It's not going into your daily driver is it? Exhaust gasket material is readily available as is sheet copper to make a head gasket if you can't clean up and anneal the original. The valve might have to be sourced from the colonies. Is there a Lafrance group or club you can reach out to? My experience of old tackle is that the old lads who have the bits hoarded are often not Internet users so word of mouth is often the way to go.

[@thebracketfactory]

yes, I think somewhere in the dusty corner of an old workshop is a new/old stock valve.... just need to find it...

[@stuartburgess2409]

You know it needs a full strip 😢, extremely annoying but true , it's gotta be done for peace of mind & it'll make a great series to enlighten us mere mortals about the internals of a Merican V12 combusting engine , plus an A series valve will probably fit with a cheeky fettle 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@thebracketfactory]

I confess I do like a cheeky fettle… but I’ll have to have a few more beers before I embark on a full strip and re-build!

[@stuartburgess2409]

@thebracketfactory Then may Silenus fill your tankard & sate your appetite for the task ahead , really enjoying this meander through the old Le France 😎 👍

[@chrischapman4277]

There must be a valve in existence that is a close fit which could be machined to size?

[@thebracketfactory]

Yes I think so too.... in the 'lorry' category!

[@stephengent9974]

rebuild. Who knows what other shocks await

[@thebracketfactory]

I shudder to think!!

[@mervynhackett5348]

try G&S valves they make valves for old motorcycles there maybe something in their lists that could be modified to fit , or somebody in the USA should have some .

[@thebracketfactory]

Thanks Mervin, a few people have mentioned the,=m now so I'll give them call. After a beer...!

[@calebbell5018]

Giveb the nature and redundancy of the engine I suspect a fix of the valve is enough to get it running (or even an omission of the cylinder. If you are planning a concourse restoration then a full teardown, clean and valve replacement may be in order. Is there any risk of valve seat recession due to soft seats meant for leaded fuel? This may be a concern as well I suppose.

[@thebracketfactory]

I think I'll have a few more beers before deciding on the concourse restoration !

[@johnsheppard7935]

....there is always the fourth option!

[@thebracketfactory]

What is that? Buy a Merlin engine instead?!!

[@bradsherman3744]

The V-12 in Madison Indiana should be able to assist you with a replacement valve.

[@thebracketfactory]

Cheers Brad, I’ve been in touch with them and unfortunately they don’t have any valves!

[@bradsherman3744]

@thebracketfactory Disappointing, have you had any other leads? I will keep my eyes peeled for you.

[@thebracketfactory]

@@bradsherman3744 I've found something similar (and cheap)... I've ordered one and I'll see if it's of any use....

[@michaelseymour3534]

Full Monty. Valves and seats look warn and corroded.

[@thebracketfactory]

Cheers Michael... it is screaming 're-build me' isn't it....

[@keithhoughton4308]

Have you thought that's why the valve arrangement is as it is? So you could drop a valve and still get to the fire?

[@thebracketfactory]

It does add an additional level of resilience doesn't it... which is very useful for a fire engine! Though the engine was originally in the Auburn Speedster...

[@h-j.k.8971]

Making a valve should´nt be too hard (grind down a larger one) but this engine seems to be a can of worms, so a complete strip down will probably be inevitable especially as you need to get a seat put in.

[@thebracketfactory]

It is indeed a big can of France American Can or worms... Lets see what surprises lie in waiting !

[@daleskidmore1685]

Well! It all depends on how much of a hurry you are in...... doesn't it? Stripping the engine down would give you more time to look for a chassis..... More vids following progress..... More chance of shearing a stud...... More Leffe.....

[@thebracketfactory]

Well I'm deffo doing the Leffe bit right now!!!

[@martinhacche1329]

If the compression is good in the other cylinders just repair the faulty valve. It seems like a huge effort otherwise.

[@thebracketfactory]

I'm leaning that way Martin....

[@robbollom7396]

well thats annoying Mr Bracket...Maybe source a valve to suit her OR a source a valve with same specs and get the engine running to see how it sounds?

[@thebracketfactory]

I'm think that way Rob...

[@hughbonnick4579]

Full monty,complete strip down and rebuild. Do it right and do it once.

[@thebracketfactory]

I may have to have another few beers first Hugh!

[@NigelHay-z6r]

Try G&S valves in Godalming

[@thebracketfactory]

Cheers Nigel!

[@karlalton3170]

Total Top end strip down for me bud for piece of mind , get it done now rather than later , great video's keep it up 😎😎🤘🤘🇹🇭🇹🇭

[@thebracketfactory]

It's the popular vote Karl!

[@jrnmller1551]

Easy, how much money do you have??? But, maybe ask how many miles will this engine do?? Fix the one valve and move on, if you got other problems, deal with it as they come!!! Maybe check Lycoming aircraft engines for valve size they look a lot similar???

[@thebracketfactory]

leaning towards ''crossing bridges when I come to them' approach !!

[@chrischapman4277]

Your link to the shop is broken. Error message says "DNS could not be found"

[@thebracketfactory]

Thanks for telling me that Chris !

[@clivelee4279]

Just get I started on eleven, see what other problems show up or not .

[@thebracketfactory]

very tempting Clive ... pretty sure there are more surprises waiting for me!

[@tweek857]

Drink a beer and start sourcing parts for both cylinder heads. Dreading the whole process.

[@thebracketfactory]

Both beer drinking and internet sourcing currently in progress!

[@deanmilward3917]

Strip it down, rebuild it properly. No point in cutting corners, you're not American.

[@thebracketfactory]

haha, but my engine is!! I will have a French glass of wine and ponder!