American Loyalists in the Revolutionary World

[@bizopca]

In Canada, we call this the 1st American Civil War. But, Loyalists cannot be picky.

[@traceydenommee4960]

I am a descendant of a United Empire Loyalist. My ancestor, Jonathan Odell, considered one of the best Loyalist poets of the time was involved in the plot by Benedict Arnold. He fled to New Brunswick and was involved in the local politics until his death in 1818. He is buried with other Loyalists in Fredericton NB. Subsequent generations migrated to Nova Scotia and west to Ontario. He is my 5th great grandfather. Other ancestors stayed in the new Republic namely Jonathan Dickinson, a cofounder of Princeton University. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Odell

[@oceanrock733]

I highly recommend her book on the Loyalists. It’s excellent.

[@birdlynn417]

I don't know. Everyone has their own bent, and if she is not neutral, she will not be telling the truth. I don't believe Thomas Paine, I think he was a liar, and used his positron to fuel this revolution as the rebel he is or was. I see the same kind of political game the Democrats are playing to get their own way.

[@HeritageLanark]

I'm so glad the American Revolution Institute is on You Tube. Thank you from Karen in Canada

[@Dechieftian]

Superb lecture Proffesor Jasanoff. You have taken the fragmented and complex loyalists experience through the revolutionary period in a manner that enables the listeners to engage in this fascinating story that somehhow all 'fits together' - at the end of your lecture. Most fascinating - thank you.

[@machsolid6402]

Thanks I’m an avid history fan? Audiobooks mostly and now there is SO much good material available and and such easy access and these lectures are wonderful thank you so much. I’m 3/4 through Chernow currently and after the leg thing and the flu thing the general had a close call!

[@Moppup]

A wonderfully illuminating lecture! Thank you American Revolution Institute!

[@oceanrock733]

My Loyalist ancestor was a Dutch resident of the Mohawk Valley, NY, and ended up on Joseph Brandt's Six Nations reservation in Canada, with 222 acres of farmland.

[@OscarLimaMike]

I know the area. I grew up there with a friend who is a descendant of Joseph Brandt.

[@mithridateseupator3492]

I’m Dutch loyalist too! We settled round Dundas, Ont.

[@LBGirl1988]

My ancestors were early Dutch settlers in the Mohawk Valley as well. All but one was a fighting patriot.

[@mcmc6621]

Now I'm lost. Dutch but loyal to the English Crown. It's even more complicated than I thought.

[@debrabyrd2544]

I have a lot of family that fought in the revolution but I have found one line that went to Canada and found a petition for land that was granted in nova Scotia.

[@MichaelLeBlanc-p4f]

Keep them precious in your heart. They resisted the 'Woke Mob' of their day.

[@MonkeyBidness359]

This was so helpful in achieving my teaching goals. When I present the Revolution to my 8th graders I try to show them both sides of the argument which was not simply one of good versus evil. It is important that we understand the experience of loyalists not simply as losers because we ourselves demand the loyalty of our citizens otherwise we will descend into chaos and disorder.

[@birdlynn417]

We already are now led by the Democrat party.

[@covertops19Z]

​@birdlynn417 Thank for that cogent and spot on comment!!

[@davidevans3227]

..greetings from south wales, uk.. recently heard a talk here on KZbin by David McCullough on John Adams.. and then saw a great drama, called John Adams.. what a fascinating subject, thankyou for sharing this 🙂 x

[@traceydenommee4960]

Thanks for this post. I purchased Professor Jasanoff's book and look forward to reading it.

[@axplayer6918]

well done Prof.

[@TheFoxisintheHouse]

Thank you for your insight.

[@ecburt5046]

Well done. My maternal ancestors lived in New York, their families torn apart... some loyalists, some patriots. Thank you for sharing the grey areas of history....and more so, giving us thoughts to ruminate on.

[@michaelmanning5379]

One way of ensuring a family would be on the winning side was to have one son join one side and another join the other. In the Mohawk Valley there is a barn that dates from before the AWI. It was not burned in the multiple raids by Tories into the Mohawk because one son from that family was a Tory yet no revenge was taken because the other son was (apparently) staunchly Patriot.

[@Michael-j4h]

⁠@@michaelmanning5379my wife’s ancestors were palatine Germans four were killed at the battle Oriskany by the Iroquois and there English officers, with the men dead the Mohawks turned on and butchered the women and children

[@Michael-j4h]

If the Americans lost the revolution the English would have ended up with all of the Mohawks lands anyways ,the Mohawks were done for win or lose

[@michaelmanning5379]

@@Michael-j4h There were no women and children at Oriskany. The Albany militia was marching to the relief of Fort Stanwix when they were ambushed in the forest by both Mohawks and Sir John Johnson's King's Royal Regiment of New York. Johnson and his men were all from the Mohawk and Schoharie valleys. Women and children were killed at Cherry Valley. It was a revenge raid by Joseph Brant and Walter Butler (an American loyalist, not an English officer) in revenge for the burning of Brant's hometown. The war in the Mohawk Valley was truly a civil war, neighbours fighting neighbours and lots of atrocities committed by both sides.

[@rpm1796]

Eloquent words professor. Slain te'/ cheers, from sometimes Sunny, but always loyal, Nova Scotia.🌞☮

[@constancemiller3753]

As the British Empire fell away after World War 2 the idea of 'Loyalists' escaping from revolution to British homes continued. Freddie Mercury's family comes to mind.

[@johndouglas6354]

Love her voice

[@donnabrowne5307]

An exceptionally researched and engaging talk, full of interesting themes and individual stories about a key group that seldom gets much attention. It's a pity she wasn't more gracious to the person whose cell phone rang.

[@shamsam4]

Beautifully put.

[@gregorymiller7828]

Thankyou Maya, I am descended from prisoners of Mother England, convicts sent to Australia in 1780's, have you researched this aspect of the British Empire? And strangely I am still loyal to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth 11.

[@dekedeke5867]

Save for the Revolution your convict ancestors would have been shipped to the US this stopped in 1776 (they were not Loyalists lol). 54000 Convicts came to the Colonies 1718 -1776 Many Australians have more or less embraced their convict history. But if you’re an American who had no idea that your country’s founding included a huge prison population, you’re not alone. Historically, Americans have not been too keen on discussing the fact that convicts came to what would eventually become known as the United States.

[@LBGirl1988]

@@dekedeke5867 actually, the convicts sent to North America were mainly debtors. Or treasonous Scots. They sent more serious criminals to Australia. (Sadly, stealing bread due to starvation was considered serious and punished harshly.) It was far away thus unable to easily find their way back home. The American colonies were strictly for profits so sending a bunch of hardened criminals there would be counterproductive. Or so contemporary newspapers said at the time. So not that many criminals as ancestors in America. Georgia was the debtors prison. My ancestors were there in the early 1700s. Must have been acceptable because by the Revolution, they were wealthy farmers, judges and attorneys. And one prisoner ancestor of mine was one of Bonnie Prince Charlie’s footman. So a political prisoner. I’m good with that.

[@LBGirl1988]

Your queen was admired by us all. She was a treasure.

[@AHLUser]

Thank You Professor Jasanoff..!! That was a fantastic talk, you are a wonderful speaker, and I enjoyed listening and learning more about this fascinating topic. I heard another talk recently on this topic, and it seemed that the treatment Loyalists received after the war largely depended on your community standing before the war. Since it was most-likely that your property would be taken and you were exiled if you were disliked or behaved badly. In the other hand, the Courts and Neighbors would be kinder if were a "Good Man' or a widow, or well-respected. So, post-war options would depend on your reputation, more than the side you chose. It was a way of 'Cleansing or Purging' your village, and certainly people that directly aided & fought for the 'Redcoats' were most-likely sent away. One Loyalist waited until 8 years after the war ended before finally relocating to Canada, and was given a difficult welcome by the Loyalists there because he was so late in arriving, they didn't believe he was a Loyalist and was just trying to get some free land..!! Or, maybe he was just trying to score a 'Refugee Bonus' and faking being a Loyalist..? And, I agree that this was the 1st U.S. Civil War, and Perhaps even the 1st 'World War' since it preluded the French Revolution and Napoleon's Conquest. And Thank You for being respectful of Canada & England.

[@susiebarajasmusiclover1826]

Good video, i enjoyed this very much.

[@peterplotts1238]

A seldom told story, but fascinating and well done.

[@LittleLargeMouth]

Excellent speaker

[@jimlaguardia8185]

Excellent! This lovely and exemplary young lady should go far.

[@williamarthurfenton1496]

The American Revolution could probably best be described as a family break up, which might explain the curious trade and cultural ties that persisted very soon after such a bloody conflict in the revolution itself. Yes, you had some squabbles and the 1812 war, but even that was a messy affair with no clear result for either side, and which Britain wanted no part even after Napeleon was defeated and they could mobilise all their efforts to America. It explains how they became such strong partners after WW2-- of course America being overwhelming dominant in that relationship after it. It also, amusingly, explains why British and Americans SO OFTEN get into trivial arguments and name calling, exactly in the way families do.

[@rpm1796]

''No Clear result for either side''?...Canada was saved.... After a half-dozen concerted invasions by American forces. ''Britain wanted no part of''....Britain did mobilize their efforts and sent thousands of her troops to Canada, immediately after, America's ally, Napoleon I, was 'safely'?... tucked away at Elba. That's why, when you get to read a book into what you comment about, you will find that half of Wellington's troops in the Regiments at Waterloo were new recruits because the veteran Battalions were in North America.

[@carywest9256]

I don't call it The American Revolution, it was The War for American Independence. As eighty some years later was The War for Southern lndependance, not no civil war. Revolution means to overthrow a government, as civil war means two factions fighting who will lead a government.

[@davidshaw9262]

The revolution in many ways could, but not necessarily should be called the "First American Civil War".The affiliation was transactional and tactical, primarily on the ground. The strategic brilliance was revolutionary, relating to the Constitution and the BILL of Rights. The historicity of the Tories seems to be in deeper layers of research. Excellent work.

[@EricB1]

@Junjun Amerexit

[@PM-zu3cz]

I would recommend Bernard Bailyn's book. It really is a great read if you can get through dense writing.

[@Mrrobackenson1]

Yes. It really was the first civil war in America. Brother did fight against brother.

[@davidbustilloscalj6391]

Excellent

[@michaels2747]

Excellent lecture.

[@matthewprentiss1460]

My 10th great Grandfather Deacon Maximillian Jewett settled in Puritanical North shore Boston crossing from England on the john of London in 1638. My 5th great Grandfather Daniel Jewett left Boston for New Brunswick and dies there in 1801. The Jewetts, Thurstons, Albrights all moved to Canada from New England. Some of the settlers in New Brunswick became Americans again by default when the Canadian/US border shifted in the bloodless Aroostook war.

[@MrTallfiddle]

.Whoa.I'm so used to the Loyalists being forgotten or demonized by American media that it disturbs me in a way to hear this...opens it up emotionally to hear a balanced analysis by an American..a good thing though I guess.Loyalist descendant[Palatine German,the Dutch of New Amsterdam].......Emigrated to Ontario.

[@WizzardJC]

I know I cannot easily understand the mindset myself of the elite of both sides, but I wonder the outcome of the revolution if the idea of a joint parliament were offered freely and been accepted. Personally I would have offered a proportionate representation in parliament but I suppose that is my own modern mindset.

[@LBGirl1988]

My patriot direct grandfather was tarred and feathered by British troops for not disclosing where he hid his silver. One of my loyalists grandfathers was afraid of the harassment and seizing of property by the patriots in Long Island, NY so he sold everything and along with many friends and extended family, moved to at the moment, British held Natchez MS. Bought 20,000 acres and settled there.

[@birdlynn417]

Revolutionaries tar and feathered loyalist first.

[@LBGirl1988]

@@birdlynn417 yeah. In my above comment, it was clearly an equal opportunity situation for bad behavior. But in the end, the loyalist sucked the most. My loyalists ancestors’ children all fought in the War of 1812 to make up for their parents not being on the patriot side. It all worked out.

[@birdlynn417]

@@LBGirl1988 We should have remained Britain. Look at America now. What to be proud about now? Crime, murder, and gun violence like no other country has. I am with the loyalist and have only learned so much recently. I guess I missed it in school day dreaming trying to stay afloat. 😀

[@LBGirl1988]

@@birdlynn417 that is insane!!!!! Our country is still the best. My city has almost no crime. It’s beautiful and we are mostly middle class. It’s large cities that SUCK because of their policies. It’s to make our citizens unhappy and docile. I meet people who moved from the UK to my area of America and I assume it’s better there. I’m quickly educated that it is not so even while agreeing it’s a nice place. But in the words of every British I meet, “it can’t compare and I am not leaving the US.”

[@birdlynn417]

@@LBGirl1988 Of course we love our country, and should do our best to protect it and make us free. But the way things are going under this degenerate left, blue party, it is only time that they will try to turn every state like a blue state. It's just awful.

[@johnstevenson1709]

I d be interested in quotes related to the loyalists saying the food was bad. Firstly because American food at the time was largely English food with a few local ingredients and dishes added and also there was no great bias against British food in 18th century.

[@lg_believe333]

I’m British from GT. Britain. Perhaps I’m wrong but I feel America today would be less divisive and more unified if the loyalists won the revolutionary war. Looking back at the revolutionary war, from a British perspective, I can’t help but feel those American revolutionaries betrayed us when they separated from the motherland. In some ways, the British empire was a complete waist of time and resources for GT. Britain because we invested heavily, colonising the Americas and the rest of the colonies, but in the end, we got nothing out of it, when most of the British subjects betrayed us and sought independence. Now GT. Britain is alone in the world, after Brexit, seeking a new destiny, but still separated from ancestral family that see themselves as foreign to our own British shores. But I feel, or maybe I’m wrong there may be some loyalists still out there, who share an affinity with the motherland, the British isles, realising, we have more in common with each other than we care to admit.

[@eatfrenchtoast]

United like Britain and Ireland?

[@noodlyappendage6729]

@@eatfrenchtoast *Great Britain.

[@noodlyappendage6729]

All we have to do is sit and wait. Americans feel like they are losing their identity and culture. They feel like they are losing their entire country together. Ultimately that's because they are. Americans are already looking to their past. They are looking to their history and their heritage to find solace. Any one of them can swear an oath of allegiance to His Majesty the King. It's what we should offer.

[@bigdog517]

Thanks!

[@dinewalton]

Were the majority of Loyalist mainly southern Americans? Since the south was selling the majority of cotton to Britain, didn't the South and Britain have a good relationship going into the American Revolution?

[@lindaeasley5606]

It wasn't just cotton but tobacco also.

[@eatfrenchtoast]

Probably and they are still Tories to this day.

[@myradioon]

No not really. The North had more "Middle Class" due to cities, industry. Small plot farmers, artisans, merchants etc. They weren't Landed gentry - and many came from Commonwealth States where some of those liberties to personal ownership of business/land etc were written into the Charters of their Colonies to their towns/families generations before. Many Rebelled when the Loyalists of their colonies- who owned most of the land and many of the Northern slaves - kept oppressing them. Massachusetts, a Commonwealth State had a strong Loyalist class amongst all of this. In the South Certain States had less loyalists - North Carolina had many people displaced from VA and SC Loyalist land, backcountry residents, runaway seamen, escaped slaves, natives, free people of color - who rebelled against mainly Loyalists in the 'Regulator Wars" earlier in the 1700's. North Carolina was one of the first to sign with Northern Colonies during the Revolution. But by and large there was a large Loyalist Class in the South and the Slavery system that the Loyalists entrenched held on there when ii passed wealth/land to American Heirs/Hands. Southern Revolutionists did help fully end the War when they forced the surrender at Yorktown.

[@hairyjohn5825]

Back then... you couldn't buy loyalty, but money buys everything now!

[@LBGirl1988]

I’ve done some genealogy and unfortunately, people can always be bought. It happened before the Bible was written. Even happened to Jesus. I have a South Carolina ancestor who kept changing sides… depending on who could financially benefit him. 🤬

[@jesuisravi]

very bright lady

[@HeritageLanark]

I wonder who the guard was that let Thomas Brown escape?. My grandfather ancestor let a prisoner escape and was killed for it. His name was Richard Bradley.

[@Nes-f5u]

My American ancestors are from the Schenectady area, Orange( Albany) and Kinderhook. My other none loyalist ancestor was also from Kinderhook who fought with the rebels (They prefer to be called Patriots) There are no winners.

[@WizzardJC]

35:42 bookmark

[@el_duck6577]

the lady in blue in the bottom right looks depressed

[@drumnykerne1]

A health to the lads who made croppies lie down

[@VinDrizzle]

Im only hearing this for the first time and im a bit confused. Im a loyalist from Belfast Northern Ireland a protestant. I don't want to get the wrong idea but are some Americans loyal to British Empire and our Queen.

[@yankeegonesouth4973]

@WASP75 I presume you figured this out by now, but this is a talk about sides in the American Revolution 250 years ago. Many of those loyal to George III in the 13 colonies left after the Revolution to become Canadians, and the patriot rebels were so successful that the British monarchy is for Americans merely an object of celebrity fascination. In fact, I'd say the monarchy is for many Americans the greatest tourist trap ever invented. The only loyalists remaining are British expats in Hollywood.

[@georgejcking]

Would somebody please explain to this "Education Elitist", that the same sht is going on in our country!!! I had to pack up and leave California, where my family has resided for over a century and where I've lived for my entire life, to move to a State that hasn't gone completely insane!!!!!! We're clearly in the first phases of another Civil War!!!

[@eatfrenchtoast]

This nut really should turn off his tv and get out more.

[@skate103]

Drinking game: Every time she says "diaspora" take a shot!!😂🎉🥃

[@carywest9256]

I googled this individual, and after hearing the gab. I've come to the conclusion that she's a no borders individual. Just listen to her correct herself several times by thinking North America, then say United States.

[@peterplotts1238]

I think you are on to something there. The story was very interesting, but in it was an undercurrent of wishing that the United States had never come into being. That idea is echoed in a few of the comments. Imagine a world without an American Revolution and the United States. What actually happened over the past two hundred years or so was no picnic, but without the United States it would have been much worse and it wouldn't be over. When you see and hear things like this you begin to realize that a significant part of the world is hostile to the very idea of America. Some of them are here and despite a deep hostility to their own country, they now occupy positions of influence and power.

[@bmcintyre1423]

So true Peter. Joe Biden and Mitch McConnell come to mind.

[@Chasestringsmusic]

1:02:09

[@robertalpy9422]

It was not Americans who broke trust with the king or his parliament. Remember each colony had a charter that allowed for self government. Each colony had its own legislature and that legislature levied taxes on behalf of the king if necessary not parliament and those colonies decided when it was necessary and it was only done for the colonies upkeep not the island 2000 miles away. Britain allowed us extraordinary freedoms and a century later tried to recind them. This violated English common law and its reliance on precedent and the precedent in America was self government by legislatures only very loosely tied to Britain except in commerce. Politically we were very different and always were.

[@Mikell-h2c]

My wife’s family , lost women and children with there husbands killed at the battle oriskany they were targeted by the Mohawks and there English officers.

[@Brian-----]

🙂

[@theshadow5800]

Pirates all...sea and land.

[@michaels2747]

I thought some loyalists went to louisana.

[@joelhansen8649]

You are thinking of the acadians (french settlers from the early 1600s in Nova Scotia and eastern New Brunswick) who were expelled by the British to make room for the colonial Loyalists to Louisiana and are now known as “Cajuns”

[@Michael-j4h]

@@joelhansen8649forced out by the English

[@_Patton_Was_Right]

It worked out great for the kosher financiers seeking to take the bank of England

[@OscarLimaMike]

I am a Patriot who grew up among Loyalists. Life has been lonely.

[@perperson199]

Nobody has ever made a good case for the American Revolution

[@perperson199]

@Anessen Pray tell why

[@DerPinguim]

@Michael Cristian It partially was, Britain was phasing out slavery from her Empire and it would be a matter of time until that happened to the southern colonies. That was the biggest reason they joined the revolution

[@NoOne-rl2ol]

@@DerPinguim Source? Not a single revolutionary document cites the preservation of slavery.

[@cokaorcola]

@@DerPinguim just untrue the abolition movement did not pick up steam until the 1790s and even then it was another half century before they abolished it in the wider empire

[@NeTxGrl]

@@layuplokeyy2367 Not true,

[@peterplotts1238]

However, can you really call those who broke with their country, above all, those who found circumstances in the new republic so obnoxious that they fled America's shores, Americans? I don't think so. Moreover, application of the term "loyalist" is entirely a matter of perspective. Only in the sense that they chose to remain British subjects were they loyalists. Their allegiance remained to the person of the King of Great Britain. Notwithstanding the commendable aspects of the monarch's character, it should not be forgotten that he waged war on his former American subjects for eight years.

[@peterplotts1238]

@@cokaorcola I suppose that depends upon your point of view.

[@peterplotts1238]

@@cokaorcola I'm not unsympathetic to the circumstances of the Royalists, but I am not with them. Of course, I wasn't there and didn't live through it all. However, according to what little I know, my people supported the Revolution, and every immigrant who came later is to some degree an endorsement of the Revolution

[@peterplotts1238]

@@cokaorcola "I have never come up with a good or sound argument for the [American] Revolution". I don't think that anyone has posited this thought since the War of 1812 and I don't think that's a coincidence. If you were correct, Great Britain would still be the greatest power on Earth. Great Britain taught us much about individual liberty, too much, in fact. However, Britain maintained and to an extent still maintains a class system. If the Crown had simply been able to bring itself to take the most obvious and simple measures - like offering Washington an officer's commission in the British Army, there may well have been no revolution. However, that just was never going to happen and it didn't happen. No people with any self-respect, especially those who had internalized the idea of individual rights was ever going to tolerate that sort of thing for very long. As for the implication that the massive immigration to the United States was simply a function of fortunate geography, that is just preposterous on its face. There is more than one landmass on the globe blessed by geography, but only one produced the oldest, constitutional republic in history. I know it must be great fun to take a piss on America and Americans and I have heard this snide, spurious trash for decades - especially when I lived in a country that twice in the last hundred or so years killed Americans by the bushel. The same country that owes its very existence to those same despised Americans. But why don't you just piss off for now? Of course, you will all come running back to those "arrogant, ignorant, American plebs' the moment the dark forces of this world like a pack of wolves begin circling and closing in for the kill and beg us to send our sons to come and die for you again.

[@peterplotts1238]

@@cokaorcola You don't know anything about this country or much of anything else, but you do know all about sounding like an overinflated, supercilious, wacko. You have nothing worthwhile to say. I'm done with you.

[@zacksmith2227]

Compensation for 20,000 loyalist slaves who sided with the British that does not sound right.what happened to them?tell the truth prof.

[@victornewman9904]

Nova Scotia and Sierra Leone.

[@lincolnlawyer9704]

I’m a descendent of British Loyalist that fled the American colonies for Canada in South Western Ontario. These days I believe they made the right move and I’m extremely glad they did. I’m a proud Canadian. Thank God.

[@danditto6145]

Surprised they let them leave after being participants in so many war crimes against patriot civilians and helping really horrible Indian raids.

[@petermillist3779]

At last, a yank who tells it as it was.

[@birdlynn417]

We belong to the British. Too bad the Rebels, which are the Revolutionaries won, because they began the wild, wild, west, and look at America today. No thank you, I am with the loyalist.

[@birdlynn417]

Imagine how things could have been, yet that's life. Our history about the break from Britain I don't believe Americans even really know.

[@eatfrenchtoast]

Eye roll

[@ДмитрийДепутатов]

Martin Eric Martin Donna Miller Scott

[@ИринаКим-ъ5ч]

Jones Michelle White Daniel Lopez Angela

[@RobertSmith-zi2xo]

It also winds me up when Americans tell English people you talk funny i cannot understand you! Hello it's OUR language not yours!!!!!!!!!!

[@NeTxGrl]

True, though it's funny the British used to use the hard "r" or rhotic when they were over here in the colonies. The Americans and Canadians have retained that hard "r". The British moved away from rhotic a long time ago and dropped the hard "r" and speak what is called received pronunciation.

[@eatfrenchtoast]

American English doesn't have the Franco influence.

[@yankeegonesouth4973]

@RobertSmith-zi2xo With what you lot have done to the language, I'm not sure you should really be trusted with it any longer.

[@555Trout]

Women forcing their voice deeper is so reulsive I can't listen.