American Magic and INEOS Team UK: Losers or future Cup holders?

Part two of the America's Cup big debrief. Today we discuss the campaigns of American Magic and INEOS Team UK.
#MozzySails supported by Allen Brothers: www.allenbrothers.co.uk/
#AmericasCup #AC36

[@bittersweet340]

ETNZ have love affair for the Americas Cup for over 30 years.. They been great innovators of the sport, they have a great legacy. When it comes to sport NZ a country of 5 million punch above their weight against the rest of the world.

[@Tom_McMurtry]

Even Some of the losses were driven by kiwi innovators and sailors fortunately or unfortunately

[@abatesnz]

@@Tom_McMurtry Yep NZL82 was a dog.

[@Tom_McMurtry]

@@abatesnz Alinghi

[@mark-ish]

@@Tom_McMurtry kiwis ran that boat.

[@Tom_McMurtry]

@@mark-ish yes, was my earlier point.

[@vanislerider7311]

The US had the best crash!!!! Fabulous.

[@jaysdood]

Where INEOS fails in comparison to ETNZ IMO is that in ETNZ good ideas thrive whilst bad ideas die regardless of how "important" the person whose ideas it is .

[@dulls8475]

How do you know? There was not much difference between the boats. The boat with the longest lead in development wise won the cup. The boat with the second longest lead in came second. It is why the AC is such a challenge and special when a boat who is neither cor nor defender wins it. See you on anarchy.

[@michaelhermans4753]

New Zealanders and Australian’s don’t have a British class system If I disagreed with the boss I’d let him know It makes a fertile environment for creative thinking In fact the boss respects you more if you voice your opinion

[@dulls8475]

@@michaelhermans4753 Usual generalised rubbish.

[@VISTLER]

Max Sirena was full of praise for Kiwi creativity.

[@dulls8475]

@@VISTLER Would you feel better if i blew some smoke in there as well?

[@okanui]

Max was with TNZ in the last cup and went away and set up LR in the same way. ego's were drilled out. the Italians were great. INEOS with Ben in charge will never win the cup, his ego is too big. It is probably why UK has never won it. why has NZ won so many times? a team with a goal and egos are put aside. who would have built a fibre glass boat, or even thought a huge cat could foil? put cyclists on a boat? that is a team with a goal, and one goal only....make the fastest boat, then let the sailors loose.

[@johnmartin7158]

Ben is totally vital for Team Ineos success. And massively so.

[@dulls8475]

What a load of Rubish. BA was not involved in the first 150 years of the cup.

[@okanui]

@@johnmartin7158 i never said he wasnt, his role needs to be defind ie what he says goes is not how you will win this cup

[@okanui]

@@dulls8475 no shit sherlock.

[@dulls8475]

@@okanui How do you know all this my Lord?

[@Nobilangelo]

The fact that AM's wheel vibrated so strongly showed that there was something very wrong with its rudder, especially its foils. Dean Barker had to hang on for dear life, which would have been a constant distraction. And he was always a second-string skipper.

[@jonNZ1000]

Yes, agree, given who used to beat him in dinghy's (qualifying boats etc in European regattas is a B@#$#%^t way of getting olympic reps from this side of the world. But he wasn't AM main issue.

[@faust451]

Thank you for pointing this out. Watching race replays and it is staggering how much effort AM's wheel took to handle, there were times where it certainly did look like Dean Barker was in a death-struggle with that wheel.

[@VISTLER]

Agreed. I don't know why this wasn't discussed. They were clearly having problems controlling the boat. It's all very well having a brilliant management team but it's not that brilliant if the end result is an uncontrollable boat and two key team members who shouldn't be on board.

[@grahmwatson9806]

Yes, I agree. I'm surprised this wasn't discussed; Mozzy said AM "lost it on the water" but patently their boat was unbalanced in some way. If they could only have harnessed all that power...

[@dominiclloyd6651]

I agree with you about Ineos team UK. They seem hugely short on imagination which is handicapped by their hierarchy. I don't know if that autocratic mindset comes from Sir Jim or Sir Ben though I suspect both, but non hierarchical thinking will always win out as it provides far greater room for imaginative input.

[@andrewbogle3350]

I know it has nothing to do with the Ineos crew’s performance but I am relieved that Jim Ratcliffe the owner of Ineos was dorked by Luna Rossa. Why? Because Ratcliffe was a major advocate for Brexit but hypocritically moved his Grenadier car business to France when he could see Brexit would hurt his business if it stayed in the UK. You don’t want a multi-billionaire like that to succeed while the average UK citizen’s life takes a hit.

[@dominiclloyd6651]

@@andrewbogle3350 Not only that, he runs a business that is a massive polluter and his involvement in sport is almost entirely as a greenwash, the rest is hubris. Certainly when he doesn't get his way in business he has a record of throwing his toys out of the pram.

[@bowantoia8536]

Lots of great thoughts. Love to see you guys sail together, great team work, that boat would fly 😀👍

[@philrogge]

27 minutes. Spot on on communication style. Burling's voice and intonation calling 'board coming down' sounds like an observation and is furthest possible from an instruction. It's a detail, but a very telling one.

[@thomasphillips885]

Probably just the NZ accent and inflection on the end of sentences

[@abatesnz]

Spithill pretty calm too. Heart rate stuck on 85.

[@tiptoptopcat]

Good job application chaps. Wish I’d been as analytical when I was your age and enjoying my sailing. Keep it up 👍

[@MicrophoneAssassin13]

Not sure how you'll keep up this channel for the next three years, but it's certainly helping with my AC withdrawal. Maybe the mid-point Deed of Gift to tide us over?

[@captain-hooked]

Great show, I enjoyed the insights on the teams and look forward to future videos. I followed your channel through the cup and thought you had a great perspective on the tactics and occurrences in the matches. I look forward to seeing how you cover the build-up to the next cup. Nice work!

[@Niels4354]

Awesome discussion and opinions, not pulling any punches... Hope Ben and Dean are listening...And hope you guys bag that Ineos " Innovation Committee" role...

[@leww2529]

Great analysis as always, lads. Now that Sir Ben, Peter Burling, and Jimmy Spithill are all in SailGP, it will be interesting to hear what you guys have to say about the sailing in those matches. As a SailGP fan, I am looking forward to the season and can't wait to hear what you all have to say!

[@kalabmuphy1820]

Interesting comments boys don't overlook Dalton from team New Zealand here's a driving Force completely uncompromising cheers from New Zealand.

[@mitchmitchell515]

Nice one guys,really enjoyed that.

[@sabbah3291]

Great analysis, truly enjoyed all your videos. Hope you guys keep them coming

[@sailtastic]

If Artemis don't come back then Iain Percy and Adam May would be ideal candidates to bring in. Adam has the tech/dev background aligned to understanding what actually makes a boat go.

[@rbcg105]

Adam May would be a great signing for ineos.

[@sailtastic]

@@rbcg105 Lets see what happens once the Olympics are over as to whether he stays with the British Sailing Team for another 4yr 5 ring cycle. You are spot on with your view of the connections to the likes of Mercedes, these have to be managed carefully. Heavily optimised CFD and FEA often leads to solutions that are not as effective in the dynamically shifting real world and the sailing team need to be able to stand up to the desire to optimise into such a narrow bucket that you can't actually keep the boat in it.

[@nathanaustin7485]

Didn't ETNZ build one foil at a time making refinements on each one, giving them 5 different foils and one final set, as opposed to 3 sets

[@WhatAboutTheBee]

Actually clever!

[@rbcg105]

Yes. Test one vs the other and then keep improving. Very sensible idea. Also make the 1st set massive and easy to sail but then end up smaller than everyone.

[@weatheranddarkness]

Ya, all the other teams missed a trick not doing the same. Interesting that UK and IT landed on almost the exact same planform but had such different characteristics.

[@artistglyn]

If Ineos throw enough money at it they will probably eventually win the cup. That's what Alinghi did. But nobody in Switzerland really cared. And I think it will be the same in the UK. apart from sailing diehards. In New Zealand, it's a very big deal. The country gets behind the team. Before this cup the team toured New Zealand going into schools with the cup raising the awareness. Team New Zealand will never be able to compete with unlimited budgets, but they will always be 'Team New Zealand'. You'll never see an overseas helmsman. They are up there with the All Blacks. You can't buy that feel good factor. Now I'm still waiting to hear you say Te Rehutai. You can do it ! Keep up the good work .

[@EnglishLawyer]

Glen throwing money at something does not win the America's Cup. It's about being smart and thinking outside the square. Alinghi did not win the Cup through throwing money at it apart from the money they paid Coutts and Butterworth. Coutts said at the time "we decided to be conservative and keep things simple". That paid off. The money spent was getting the IP that Counts and Butterworth could bring by supplying the Team NZ way of working. Look at what it costs Nasa to send a rocket into space then look at New Zealand's Rocket Lab who can send rockets into orbit with payloads for a fraction of the cost. It's about working smarter, not harder.

[@artistglyn]

Alan, I agree smart thinking has won the cup for TNZ on several occasions, but large budgets has also cost them the cup. TNZ are without doubt incredibly innovative and skilled in all departments and have been since 1987 with 'plastic fantastic'. But the world of high level sport is dominated by those that have. F1, premiership football, MotoGP etc. Let's hope the boys can buck the trend !

[@cainsmale5988]

If nobody really cared in Switzerland when Alinghi won the cup its probably because they cheated by buying the original Team New Zealand to win the cup .. that must have felt unsatisfying

[@smartcatcollarproject5699]

@@EnglishLawyer True, Alinghi were good, not just in the AC, and Bertarelli a smart guy, not only a good sailor. I'd say they would have kept the Cup if it wasn't decided in courts.

[@rossatonic572]

@@EnglishLawyer I doubt payload costs are much different, when discounting the fact that much of Nasa's payload costs ae associated with Human rated travel and adjusted for inflation. Thunderfoot has done a good one on this vs SpaceX. There are limits.

[@bradclifton5248]

Outeridges lesson of 35 should teach any team to have a second capable on the wheel.

[@KiwiBro8]

Haha I'd forgotten about that

[@rbcg105]

When he went for a swim?

[@paulgush]

Team Mozzy 2024! You guys should form your own syndicate! It's not a competition between nations, it's between yacht clubs. So, appoint Ian Percy as your team principal and let Ineos do their own thing. Just get him on board before you tell him he has to raise the funds!

[@weatheranddarkness]

When was the last time there were two british clubs in the cup? 19th C?

[@paulgush]

@@weatheranddarkness I'm not sure if it's ever happened. The challenger series only started in 1970. Until then there was only ever one challenger per cup

[@smudge6831]

Nz has done very well since 1995 as those that helm the boat, generally have a strong engineering background - Coutts 1995, 2000, then going on to Alinghi 2003, and 2007. Coutts then headed up oracle n 2013. Burling similarly, 2017 and now 2021 - fantastic sailor, however also has a strong engineering background.

[@BruceHoult]

Barker has a good record overall in match racing in conventional biggish yachts, but only finished mid-field when he went to the olympics in a Finn. In contrast Coutts got gold in the Finn, Ainslie has a gold and a silver in Lasers and three golds in Finn. Outteridge and Burling both pilot 49ers and foiling Moths -- possibly the best practice for current Americas Cup boats. Outteridge has won Olympic gold and silver along with numerous world championships in the 49er, and more recently in foiling Moths. Peter Burling has also won Olympic gold and silver and numerous world championships in the 49er, and also in the Moth.

[@arthurchristopherbulger7709]

Guys - the foiling sailing thing and the innovative design thing are the same thing! It’s the foiling experience that Glenn, Peter, and Blair bring to the design process that wins the race before it starts.

[@braydeny]

Love that the Americas cup is still going

[@oliverliddell613]

Excellent. Thoroughly enjoy your format. Would love to hear more on the double skinned mainsail. I think it has huge potential for multi hulls with rotating masts; particularly the big ones such as Gitana 17? You guys really did a great job during the Cup. Hats off to you.

[@braydeny]

Why wasn't Nathan on a boat. Can't believe that

[@Robinlarsson83]

Probably simply because Barker had a better connection to Hutchinson. Nathan was never going to be an alternative for Ineos and ETNZ obviously, and likely not for LRPP either, Spithill has a lot of history with them so?

[@richlatvala8143]

And he had a baby. Might have been a choice but who knows. I agree.

[@sidknee4975]

I’m a big fan of Nathan, his sailing style is a mix between Pete and Jimmy and a humble man.

[@michelesetnikar8863]

I think both AM and INEOS made the same big mistake: put on the boat guys with a lot of experience and talent but too old and too involved in other roles. LRPP didn't do the same mistake, the kept experienced guys like Max and Vasco Vascotto in the team but out of the boat. Of course they liked to be on board, who doesn't wish to sail those beasts, but Max understood that was a "just ego" decision not a winning one.

[@knutpohl339]

I fundamentals disagree with American Magic having had the chance to win the Cup. They had tremendous straight line speed, no doubt, and were strong in the breeze. But their maneuvreability was crap and most importantly, they would have never won the Prada Cup, yet alone the America's cup, because both were decided predominantly in the light winds, and they wouldn't have had a chance at outperforming ETNZ there, and certainly not Luna Rossa

[@11calman]

Dean Barker was the skipper in this one, Not enough technical savvy as the younger guys. Good in his day but not up to this new standard, Ben Ainsley was in the same boat so to speak. It's almost like comparing me to "Jeff Beck" Certain guys have a huge advantage over guys who think they know what they are doing,,,, maybe say hi kzbin.info/www/bejne/jpfGZKGJl853pM0

[@smartcatcollarproject5699]

ETNZ also capsized, not even in a stressful situation, and the crew were all young. I find it very strange that none of these boats have an instant release/ease off for the main, which happened only several seconds later when it was too late ! I don't know if AM could have won, but I certainly noticed that their boat's name as well as Ineos were insults to the yachting etiquette (and even worse to the archetypes -you don't mess withese guys). You just don't call an American boat 'Patriot' when the largest name on the mainsail is 'Airbus'. Same with 'Rita', that's an Italian name, and in French 'rital' means... 'Italian' ! I can't believe that nobody among hundreds of people in both teams noticed how stupid these choices were, that's just unreal !

[@11calman]

@@smartcatcollarproject5699(mate) Although you rightly said that, ETNZ, were all young, you forgot to say that they were all extremely good looking, much Like our sheep

[@paolozampieri2691]

@@smartcatcollarproject5699 as someone nicely put it, Patriot just wanted to fly back home to...EU!

[@knutpohl339]

@@smartcatcollarproject5699 I agree on Patriot being a poor name choice (that also fully fits my American stereotype), but I can't share your criticism of Britannia's name, really. Rita is not only a common name in many European countries and by far not an exclusive or even typical Italian name, it's also the name that Ben Ainslie has given every boat he ever owned, including the previous AC cat and the only Finn to ever win 3 Olympic gold medals in a row. The name goes back to a batch of St.Rita's church on Tenerife that his mom sewed onto his life jacket when he was 15

[@ronmumford5793]

Really enjoy the banter and analysis. Hopefully you three will carry on with Sail GP, especially considering Ben, Peter, Nathan and Jimmy are in the mix. 👍🏻

[@jackmm8]

Always love these episodes keep up the great work

[@budsvjourney2919]

Good stuff......thanks guys

[@peterwor]

Good job guys...

[@stevelangridge1755]

I think I know where you're coming from as concerns Barker. Kiwi, loser, new type of boat... etc. But was he really to blame in 2013? Didn't the Americans simply come back and win with a significantly faster boat?

[@smudge6831]

The 2013 loss was more to do with the kiwi engineers that Ellison bought over at the ninth hour to make key modifications to oracles hydraulic package. Overnight they were able to foil upwind, and found another gear. ETNZ had no chance from that point. Barker was just along for the ride. Having said that he has flipped a couple of boats now at key stages of the America’s cup regatta

[@asterixdogmatix1073]

@@smudge6831 Not just hydraulics. A key aspect was cavitation on the rudders which meant they couldn't keep the boat stable when foiling. Core in Warkworth built bulbs for the rudder appendages which removed this issue. This is from a Core boat builder himself.

[@paulderrick6095]

Simple answer: Yes. Someone had to be thrown under the bus & the CEO wasn't going to throw himself., strangely enough. Who wuda thunk it?

[@bobmoody5732]

I think one of the causes of Ineos' design limitations is that they do not get the most out of the simulator to support their design. A team like ETNZ fully trust what their sim is telling them about what ideas will and won't work and in what conditions. They even raced against an AI bot on their simulator to test themselves out and get new ideas. The fact that Ineos ended up with such mediocre foils and was so uncertain about their boom decision is an indicator that they are not getting what they could be out of their simulator in the design process.

[@michaelhermans4753]

I agree

[@inquirist3534]

I agree. ETNZ seem to be way ahead in their development and use of an AI Bot to drive their simulatior, so that their engineering teams can rapidly optimise their designs by testing small changes, e.g. to foils, fairings, etc., in a repeatable testing scenario. INEOS UK should be training their engineers or taking on staff with experience in relevant AI techniques.

[@bradclifton5248]

Pete and Blaire did Volvo too. That team building experience with veterans.

[@rbcg105]

Those guys have a broader experience in the sport than any of the older guys on the other teams. Total legends

[@jsfoster100]

Thanks for this. I was interested to see comments about MAGIC especially in contrast to NZ & Prada. She looked fast...but inconsistent, which expressed itself in its final flight. Both simultaneously! Keep it up.

[@christopherknight8248]

Hi, I have really enjoyed your channel during AC36, I was wondering what your plans are for the channel once the current AC is forgotten? Are you going to cover other sailing events or go in a different direction?

[@paoloradaelli7120]

Interesting to listen to Max Sirena in his interviews in Italian, where he is much more honest. He said that American Magic made some very strange choices and LR never understood them, plus Barker made an error that is unacceptable at that level. He also defined INEOS campaign ‘disastrous’.

[@alextesei6978]

Hi guys, always interesting to listen to you. What do you think of LR's situation vis a vis the next America's Cup? What are their strengths and weaknesses? What will they have to progress in to take the next step? Will they keep Bruni and Spithill on the boat or do you think they will bring in fresh blood (Ruggero Tita and Bissaro for example). Also what do you think of this new breed of "technical sailor", for example Burling, Tita, Bissaro etc. all of whom have degrees in engineering or similar subjects. Is this going to be more and more of a requirement for these development classes?

[@RyanWolfNZ]

Loved it!

[@Chris.Davies]

Patriot was indeed beautiful, resembling a humpback whale with both foils down. But she was/is deeply flawed. Patriot's helm seemed to constantly vibrate in a very alarming way in Dean's hands. And I often saw him try to move the wheel but it either wouldn't budge, or he had to really haul on it to get it to move. There seemed something wrong with the balance, or harmonics, or dampening, or design of the rudder system. The other boats did not seem to suffer severe helming issues. Aeroplanes always have defined limits on their performance in different flight scenarios, and many are notorious for being utter garbage in one way or another on the performance graphs. Some planes were almost impossible to fly under some scenarios, and loss of control could result. The wrong design will fight your control inputs at the worst possible moment, and losing control of an AC75 at speed has essentially the same consequences as crashing a plane at the same speed, as we saw in the rescue and recovery operation of Patriot. An interesting question about AC75s is this: Do they have a defined VNE? VNE means "Velocity Never Exceed" and applies to indicated airspeed. Going beyond the VNE can do things like rip off control surfaces, and even the wings themselves. Ouchies.

[@MrCongosquare]

From what I have seen on the water, from the interviews, the comments etc. it looks like INEOS and AM were surprisingly unprepared when they started racing. INEOS was often unable to race, to say it straight, and AM had big problems with their hydrodynamics, leading to this rudder vibration that we saw during the semifinals and possibly to the accident that nearly cost them the boat. Surprising when you consider the budget they had and the technological support of both teams. So, what went wrong? I have learnt that in every technological sport at the top-level everyone is smart enough to win. The difference between a successful campaign and a complete disaster lays often in the details and these details are often of two orders: mindset and organisation. Usually, one leading to the other. My feeling is that INEOS and AM probably misjudged the complexity of this AC, or maybe they were feeling too confident. They had big names on board, tons of medals, impressive CVs, big money and technological support and only two other challengers. They must have thought that this was going to be an easy Prada Cup. So they went for the fastest design possible and then “we’ll make it work”. Unfortunately for them, it proved very difficult to keep these boat flying and to have good control in race conditions. LR went for a more prudent approach. Their foil design was clearly aimed at easy take-off and safe flying. Once achieved that, they kept refining the speed qualities. They continued the development job with a second boat very similar to the first one, so they in fact developed the first concept for longer and earned the time to squeeze speed out of it.Eventually, LR choices were the wrong ones to beat the Kiwis. Possibly, the design choices of AM and INEOS could have led them to the cup, but you have to be ready when the competition starts. If you are ready the next year, well… you have simply done a poor job. Big egos have also been a problem for INEOS and AM. A tactician/grinder, a helmsman who doesn’t listen to the tactician and sinks his boat, a helmsman/skipper/team principal, all signs that someone was racing HIS own race with a little help from his 150 friends. The rumours about the next AC being a deed of gift race between TNZ and INEOS confirm this kind of mindset, at least from INEOS: Sir Ben Ainslie must see himself as the natural challenger of the Kiwis, despite what the race course said. If someone gets in the way then just don’t invite him to the party: problem solved. In LR team Max Sirena certainly does not see himself as a regatta god and the only boss is Patrizio Bertelli. All very clear and simple. This is probably why LR mindset looked more structured This is strange to say since Latin people are seen as more individualistic. But Max did a tremendous job in blending some British strictness into Italian enthusiasm. They knew from the start that this was going to be difficult and stayed focused and organised. Good job! But paradoxically, if they want to win the next cup they need more courage on their technical choices.

[@johnforde7735]

I'm a not fan of Dean Barker (definitely not), but he has won an America's cup before and did almost win in San Fran. That's probably why America Magic went with him, the next best record in foiling boats after Spital, Burling, etc., etc.. But I agree that New York Boat Club need to get their own home grown sailors into this. I guess they have been out of it so long that this is a start that they plan to continue. The masters have been humbled for such a long time...

[@peterdanjou6127]

Running a campaign is best done off the boat, ala Grant Dalton. Ben Ainslee is a great solo sailor but he got frustrated in a team enviro

[@jaysdood]

I'm a Kiwi and I agree with Rob. As nice a guy as Barker is, he was a weak point and Hutch too. I don't think AM could have won with those two on the boat.

[@johnmartin7158]

Totally agree Jaysper. Auckland

[@anmihovil]

Dean is to nice to win you have to be some sort of tough/bad guy. He just crumbles under pressure. Look at Peter Burling, the same emotions winning or loosing, rock solid guy!

[@onehanger]

Crying as he crossed the line in San Fran... Need I say more?

[@giuliozanotti555]

I have a friend in Wellington!

[@jaysdood]

@@giuliozanotti555 You do!

[@charlottescott7150]

Really interesting chat thank you and I would definitely want you on my team but then I’d miss your analysis videos!

[@MozzySails]

Any time!

[@trevorgissing1208]

Another great discussion guys. I still have problems understanding how INEOS, with all the resources they had at their disposal, got key fundemental elements of both of their boats wrong. They need to find out what went wrong in the design process. I wonder how much input the sailors had into the design process......my guess would be not much.

[@MartinSparkes-BadDragon]

Its simple. Lack of imagination and too rigid. I think Ben is not the right leader in a development sport. Yes he is a great sailor in a fixed class of boat, but he was found lacking in this event. The Kiwi sailors learn innovation growing up - that's something that you can't teach someone.

[@maxhugen]

It may be that they had too many clever designers - including those from the Mercedes F1 team - but didn't have the right design team leader that could pull all those egos into a decent design process.

[@MarcHillM]

Watching this again now in September five months after and it's quite prophetic. JR must have seen this. Merc is now in full-on partnership with Ineos not just supplier, plus they looked to have caught AM's designer and keeping a low profile. New NYYC team with US young guns, LR recently out in a B1 or B2 and the defence somewhat distracted.

[@DanielBlomqvist]

You guys are the best AC analysis channel by far. Could you please continue with SailGP (although it's one design)? Also, I really like the new stricter nationality rule.That's why I (being a Swede) had the following favourites for this cup: 1. UK 2. NZ 3, IT 4. US When Artemis competed for Sweden, I kind of supported them (but not really) .

[@fabharlock4208]

The AC75s are difficult to carry boats because they are very fast, Max Sirena said yesterday that talking to Jim Spithill will support him with another couple of young helmsman in order to prepare them for the next AC, Ben Ainsley allowing

[@anmihovil]

I'm glad I share the same opinion - to some extent though - about American Magic with Tom and Rob. They were definitely the strongest challenger. I'm not sure if they were capable of winning the cup but I'm pretty sure they could have won Prada cup.

[@richlatvala8143]

Love it again. Want to hear more from Tom too. Good debrief but focused mostly on the sailors instead of the design decisions. For instance, touched on American Magic hull design. I agreed that the proper design gave no weight to getting up on the foils since to win a race the boat should never touch down. The fact that Magic splashed down before almost every race was tragic. To be honest it was pretty much the downfall of the team and I don’t know if that is dean, or what... love the respect for dean but you are right, the skipper choice was interesting from the start.

[@noahhume9743]

What was going on with the level of vibration on AMs wheel? It seemed much more than other boats and wonder if that compromised boat feel in terms of skidding, cavitation etc.?

[@maxhugen]

Terry Hutchison mentioned a harmonic vibration from the rudder foil as the cause.

[@FrontNine09]

In terms of team building and moving people ashore who does INEOS take off / bring in? They seem to be fairly short in that department. Who are the coaches for INEOS also, I can't remember hearing any big names? If your plan is to continue making AC videos a cool idea for some videos could be your lineups for the future teams + lineups for teams that don't yet exist (e.g. Australia) Edit: I wrote this before listening to your bit about Percy which is spot on to be fair. Also would we see Freddy Carr come off the boat as he's getting on a bit now?

[@hisdadjames4876]

Genuine question - is Ben Ainslie really a great strategist and team leader or ‘simply’ an outstanding, driven solo yachtsman....and poster boy to attract sponsors?

[@johnforde7735]

It's pretty clear that smaller foils were the better choice. It doesn't give everything, most notably being able to sail a high mode that Luna Rosa used to their advantage in the America's Cup. But it gives boat speed at a lower mode which allows you to get out of trouble when you fall off your foils.

[@jamesaron1967]

Yes, and they were able to keep pace with LR when they were behind even in light winds. I predict most if not all teams next AC will be sporting smaller foils, providing the rules don't change much.

[@redgozza]

So I think the overall outtake from that was there are plenty of lessons that both teams can learn to make them much stronger in the next cup but perhaps the most important factor in whether they learn them or compound them will be around the ego's of the people at the top of the team. The other thing they both need to to is make sure they don't just catch up to where NZ are now - they need to match the next progression that NZ make which will be no easy feat.

[@johugra1]

I personally think in a drag race Ineos were as fast as Luna Rossa. They just fell off their foils more easily. There was an excellent video of them bearing away to build up speed for the tack whilst Luna Rossa just tacked very neatly. So Team UK had a lot further to sail. Another thing Luna Rossa did really well is sail close to the wind giving them good VMGs. New Zealand's foils were on another level. They stayed up in the light airs but when the stronger winds blew they were gone.

[@giovannigaleotti2623]

When you have Paul Goodison on the team you hand him the helm

[@uhan33]

What about the patriot rudder vibration issues?! Agree Dean needs to get off the wheel but there were times when that boat looked unsteerable

[@sweetybnz7482]

One positive for Ineos is it looks like they are buying their way into a Cup challenge. I guess if you can't compete with the other teams, its one way of going about it.

[@davidcromer7673]

Agree. All the other teams all saved up their paper round money and marbles and haven’t had any money thrown at them. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@rjj9922]

@SweetyB; Yea, of course. All AC teams except Ineos did it on a shoe string with no money to spend. You have obviously followed lots of AC racing!

[@sweetybnz7482]

@@davidcromer7673 I don't know what David and RJJ are refering to, but I'm talking about the rumoured one off deed of gift challenge at the Isle of Wight. 2 cups in a row the UK team looked the weakest challenger.

[@davidcromer7673]

@@sweetybnz7482 well appreciate your point but a promotional event to involve the RYS and founders of the Cup sounds more like clever referencing to history. Helps everyone involved. NZ, LR and AM in all their iterations have been competing for the Cup for a long time now and have well established teams and routes of development. BAR/Ineos is relatively new and will take a few cycles to get to speed. That being said they made some quite big mistakes along the way they need to learn from.

[@mircobabini7054]

Rob Statement on minute 30'40" ....... number ONE, and about sense of humor...i might bring some !!

[@paulderrick6095]

Thanks for another good discussion fellas. You are now my AC methadone. I'd take issue with Rob Gullans analysis of Dean Barkers performance in SF 2013. He didnt get 8-1 up & suddenly become a bad helmsman. I would blame Dalton for agreeing to a layday during which Oracle modified their boat & were suddenly fast long before I blamed Barker. But in the usual fashion the boss has to find a scapegoat as he isnt going to throw himself under the bus. Not saying that Burling isnt a better choice for one moment though. Would have liked to see in house trials for the helmsmans spot. Barker didnt cover himself in glory in this edition, not so much for the capsize but poor starting in AC36 seemed to be a problem. Heard they had data & communication issues but dont know if there's any truth in that. Good luck getting hired by Ineos but in a selfish way I hope you dont as your vids would come to an end. Can't see how Sir Jim can resist your sales pitch. Not sure if Mozzys Toms support for Ainslie is diplomacy or patriotism but agree the Ineos sailing team would have won probably had they been sailing Te Rehutai rather than Rita. Still think Sir Ben had starting issues that maybe a skiff sailor or 3 could help with. :-)

[@timball885]

Great de brief guys, comparing the kiwis to Brits, ‘necessity is the mother of invention’ and the point about development classes is also a keen observation, maybe a few days at sea on a open 60, or a mini transat? although chalk and cheese i would think we’ve all had great solutions from sometimes adapting something quite different. And it ties in with grinder efficiency, 6 big blokes ‘just’ producing hydraulic pressure there surely must be some efficiency ideas, just picture Alex Thompson tugging on that bit of string while talking to the camera..... I’d give you the job.

[@Jay_VW]

Do you guys have a view on who had the better AI or bot? Might be an interesting discussion.

[@GBH001]

TNZ. Maybe it is TNZ’s AI that becomes self aware and destroys the world and not skynet after all?

[@braydeny]

Agree totally about AM

[@MrVaticanRag]

What do you think of say a 4 lap figure 8 around Browns Island and Motuihe islands for AC2024? A forerunner for AC2027 around Isle of Wight

[@MrVaticanRag]

Or maybe around White Island in Bay of Plenty?

[@kc0dxf]

Which boat was maxed out in terms of development and which boat had the most head space left to develop and improve?

[@GBH001]

Probably tNZ had the most improvement left due to the lack of sailing time they had. They only raced their boat 15 times or so!

[@peterebel7899]

Just one question to be answered: Is AC a game for egos to have a playground or a regatta you just want to win?

[@matty665]

There shouldn't be restrictions on how many foils you can hold, is that right?

[@seanricketts941]

The rules did restrict foils. Each team could only build 6 foils over the campaign. Hope this helps

[@martindyer7410]

Thank you gentlemen - really enjoyed your commentaries the past few months. However I was wondering what your thoughts might be about foiling container boats? Do you think this might have helped in the Suez Canal? She was going 13kt when she grounded - not so far off foiling speeds perhaps?

[@jamesaron1967]

They would never get out of the water because their mass is too great. It's not only about speed. If the AC75 was 50% heavier for example, the minimum foiling speed would increase all else being equal. Think how fast those container vessels would need to be propelled...

[@rbcg105]

🤣

[@andewroberts5474]

Hard to imagine ETNZ calling Burling "Gov"! My guess is that the Ben's input into the design is a boat that is easy to sail, whereas Ashby and Burling don't mind if it is very hard to sail but is fast. EG small foils. INEOS don't have anyone close to Ashby's skill set who can input into the design, compare the mains! My guess is INEOS will appoint Verdier.

[@rbcg105]

Verdier would be great for ineos. Also Ashby would be incredibly valuable to any team.

[@jakethemus4321]

Hey mate, are going to do same analysis with sailgp? Cheers

[@jeffblowers5386]

Enjoyed the dialogue, being from the US you struck a chord with me pointing out the US has a deep bench of new sailing talent, why are they not Taking advantage of it. At least my ears heard that :-).

[@halfadevil]

Ineos needs to recruit Slingsby or Outteridge as second helmsman onto the team, as the duel helm was by far the best option. I agree they need someone from non-one class design

[@KonradKulwicki]

As per the nationality rule, neither would be viable for the alleged Deed of Gift Match in 2022 - they'd need 2-year residency within a 3-year period before the Match, or to have been involved with INEOS this past cup cycle. It is an idea for the 2024 campaign (or most likely 2023 if the '22 DoG doesn't pan out), but I don't see either Slingsby or Outteridge on that team, really. Either is more likely to get on board with AM than INEOS, I'd say.

[@Silvius.2]

To late..

[@emilnilsson1941]

@@KonradKulwicki they need to have lived in the country or worked for the team two years before now, not two years before the match

[@KonradKulwicki]

@@emilnilsson1941 thanks for the correction. Even stricter then, although I guess we can't be sure what the rules for 38th would be if we have a DoG Match first - it's a fair assumption that the DoG is considered only if the following cycle rules would be agreed between INEOS and ETNZ right now as well, but as we know, anything can happen, really.

[@dealeru.3532]

What did the British Tin Man say after meeting the Italian Steam Roller? "Blimey, I've been foiled again!"

[@callumwyper]

Honestly they should have hired Tom Slingsby as helm, Kyle Langford as Wing trimmer and goodie as tactician.

[@dulls8475]

The Tom Slingsby who was trounced by BA in the Sail GP?

[@callumwyper]

@@dulls8475 yup

[@rbcg105]

@@dulls8475 I think Ian Jenson was a massive factor in Sydney.

[@minime453]

heck yeah

[@MarkMcLT]

Who in the US team played the role that Ray Davies did for ETNZ? Seems like he made a tremendous contribution in preparing the sailing team.

[@philrogge]

I think it was James Lynne

[@tonybaloney7689]

The cliff hanger 😭😭😭.

[@SuperReasonable]

I sense INEOS got very caught up with the foil issues and ignored, or had no time to focus on the sail plan. They didn’t seem to understand how effective a 2 skin system that, if manipulated properly, can produce a near perfect aerofoil. The foils, if still unrefined, eventually worked as well as can be expected, but their sail plan never had the same look because the control systems were so far behind. Give INEOS the Luna Rossa boomless system and an extra 3Sqm of sail from Team NZ and I think they could have made it to the final, in spite of the foils.

[@peterludlow7047]

The answer was in plain sight, it was the sailplan. None so blind as those that cannot/will not see.

[@bradclifton5248]

But, when you over complicate something, its very hard to bodge that and make it workable in some unexpected scenario.

[@reedy9395]

You mentioned having an American Helm but who? Outside of the stars and stripes guys who might be running their own team hopefully? Who helms? I mean even Sail GP USA are helmed by an austrailian now

[@MartinHoffFoilingSailboats]

Goody, Rome ...

[@rbcg105]

Rome wouldn't be a bad shout. They just need to commit to someone early and then get the hours in. Someone with the right mentality. Or just go with the only person to beat all the other big names in the Moth. Goody.

[@cindyullsee393]

@@rbcg105 Yeah put Goody on the helm, would be great to see how he fares when the trimmer doesn't let the main twist off during a critical manoeuvre.

[@rbcg105]

@@cindyullsee393 main, trav and runner were max ease on the hydraulic rams. Manouver wasn't on.

[@cindyullsee393]

@@rbcg105 Maybe at maximum runner ease but for what button state, the above 20knt button or the 15knt or 10knt button? Has there been a data dump that you can share that shows the configuration & that runner was at max ease for that wind strength or was it max ease for 10knts? Unfortunately I can't see the rams & I can't see if the right button was pushed but I do see that main doesn't look like the others! Why would they set it up to ease the traveller & main but leave the top of the main to hook on the runner & become a big bag, I don't think it was something the sailmakers would have suggested? Do you think they will continue with that sailtrim with Goody on the helm or will they cut that manouevre from their playbook because it can't be done?

[@CiaranKing505]

Mercedes aint no mugs. The integration between technical kmowledge and domain knowledge will come down to leadership, openness, and good faith. Anyone with specialist modelling knowledge knows that the most valueable thing they can get their hands on is experience. Those merc engineers are a creative bunch and they know that they need to listen to the sailors

[@rbcg105]

I don't doubt it and maybe they were just involved to late this time but they were ultimately responsible for some pretty crap foils.

[@peterbee8892]

You are hired...come and see me Monday. ..Jim

[@paulcooze7070]

go etnz!!!

[@andrewpardington7526]

they could've had nathan outerridge

[@GBH001]

Bit harsh on Dean Barker. He will be forever tarnished by 2013 but he has huge experience and expertise and he was at the helm for ETNZ that was always disadvantaged against teams with much bigger funds and up against his mentor in 2 cups, who is the greatest - courts! Although, I think, due to his age, his time in these style of boats has passed. I agree with whoever said they can’t believe Outteridge is not there. Great helmsman and seem like a good guy as well👍

[@EnglishLawyer]

I think one of the biggest mistakes the US made was having Terry as a tactician and yet grinding as well. You can't do both jobs and he is too old to be a grinder just like Dalton back in 2013. Just nuts. How can you be a tactician when your head in down in the engine room?

[@joeypierantonis7576]

Totally agree. To me (bias) AM, had the best looking rig. I woulda liked black sails. I think there needs to be a rule, that At LEAST, the helmsman should be be from the represented nation. There isn't any good American sailors? I find that hard to believe. Where is Ted Turner's son?

[@Silvius.2]

Youp... that i was writing about Therry, why he was not only-mostly tactically on board? Head up and make decision thogheter whit Dean and goody! Only tactician he got time and see what important. Like when capsized! Goodisons call to barker! Maybe dean didn't hear it. I dont thinking Dean was the problem, more about how decision where made. Onboard comunication was so bad..

[@benjamintaylor6731]

The US main was too skinny.. look at their helm - the boat was uncontrollable. There is a point where drag reduction goes too far. Yeah they were jet fast but it's no good if your not stable

[@darrenpotter2553]

Check the ineo’s boys in a cherub fleet for a bit hahahaha :-)

[@MyKharli]

you three on the team would get my vote if it were a voting issue ....

[@radarriau]

Dean Barker is probably the most experienced foil helmsman for large boats. He was the only one to get the AC 50 around the course in the windiest race and finish in one piece mind you the fairings were starting to fall off.. the AC 75 has way too much power for winds over 20 without a more a sophisticated main sail. Basically the head needs to twist off sideways more like a Windsurfer especially on a tack bare-away. Magic was a great boat, too bad it didn’t have a main sail like the Italian boat. Perhaps a brilliant combination might be a second helmsman and Dean. If the Italians had the faster boat they would have probably annihilated New Zealand. Ineos made a silly design decision with that wide skeg-spine was way too sticky. American Magic’s hull was actually the better of the four hulls in terms of water release and shut off to the water in the effective area. In the end, the small foils and the aero package at the cockpit helped New Zealand I’m guessing.

[@johnmartin7158]

Life if full of ifs Richard.

[@xfire301]

My mechanic responded about Jaguar cars (circa 1980): “Jags handle better than the best BMW. They are more comfortable than the best Mercedes. Jaguars are a testimony to the triumph of Development over Design”. Bodes well for Ineos?

[@paolozampieri2691]

Is that the reason why BMW and Mercedes thrive while UK car manufacturers are either bankrupt or in Indian hands?

[@stefanzzz6778]

Is this sarcasm?

[@WhatAboutTheBee]

@@stefanzzz6778 Clearly

[@arthurchristopherbulger7709]

To late for Ben and Giles to follow the path - time to look to UK’s best in Moths, Nacra 17s and A’s and put them in the back of the boat

[@asterixdogmatix1073]

I'm surprised you rated AM so high and put the blame on sailing decisions for their downfall. Frankly I thought they had plateaued or stalled in their boat development by the time the Prada Cup started. Given the short turnaround I don't think they could have overtaken the other challengers even without the near sinking. Possibly made the Prada Cup Final, but they wouldn't have qualified first regardless due to the points won prior to the capsize.

[@jonNZ1000]

I find it very bizarre also given the normal thinking on design. There were clear boat design originated handling issues with that boat even before the crash. That boat, with that crew, should have been able to do that manoeuvre. The other three teams would have.

[@giovannigaleotti2623]

Of course Ben and Giles are good enough but they need 200 hours in Moths each

[@weatheranddarkness]

It was interesting watching what Ben did with the boat during the racing. Having watched the SailGP races in Sydney before everyone locked down and how it was clear that there was a seemingly telepathic connection across the crew in those races and how Ben navigated them to the best positions on the course in all but one race. He does well in one design fleet races, and he does well solo, and he's done well as helm on big crew ships that had most of their crew work down. Whereas he seemed to have given away a lot of races here in the starts. Freddie Carr said as much once he was on the broadcast crew, right until part way through The Match he hadn't seen an AC75 race start 'won' they'd all been given away. Rita 2 was clearly a complex boat to get sailing at her optimum, and it requires a mutual trust across the whole crew and it seemed like that fell apart after they lost their first Prada cup final start, and there wasn't enough meat in the breeze to lean the boat on. I think I also saw an inclination to try and fly Rita like she was a Finn, tactical placement of a boat changes when you move from displacement speeds to >4x windspeed, I wonder if match races in moths are as flat as AC75 match races. There's certainly a different dynamic but having fleet races with AC75s seems like a sure fire way to see a human vivisection.

[@giovannigaleotti2623]

@@weatheranddarkness Take note that TNZ was the first to start aggressively looking for more speed using windward heel. Windward heel is terribly counter intuitive when you sail conventional yachts. You might do a few degrees upwind in some special situations on a center boarder but it is hardly a default mode and you don't have much feel for how a boat behaves dynamically in such situations. For a Moth sailor it is second nature. Ben and Giles are both great athletes and capable of learning new tricks. It's a bit silly they didn't find the time to get in a Moth when it's easy to see that AC 75s are 75 foot Moths with a bunch of distracting complexities thrown on top that make it all the more difficult to discern the fine points of achieving speed and efficiency in manoeuvres. In the end Pete Burling and Glen Ashby showed the world how their experience in foiling dinghies allowed them to extract the incredible potential out the most difficult boat to sail in the fleet with far less racing time than the others had. Sailing a foiler requires the same determination and hard work as sailing a conventional boat and Ben and Giles have these qualities in spades, no question. However it also requires the open mindedness to recalibrate priorities and perspectives to what is a different game. How often have we seen Formula 1 champions fade because technical evolution made the strengths of their driving style less important and they were either unable or unwilling to relearn and adapt? If Ben wants to win the Cup he has to get in a Moth or lobby for it to be sailed in a 75 foot Finn..........The first alternative might be less work. I will be happy to recommend coaches and sparring partners - plenty of candidates in the UK.

[@weatheranddarkness]

@@giovannigaleotti2623 I definitely saw LR leaning into the wind early. They also seemd to get the most comfortable out of anyone rolling into and out of manoeuvres. We didn't see much sailing from them though, so it's hard to say when they started. Sailboarders also do the same. Definitely agree outside of that.

[@petertelford5338]

@@weatheranddarkness There will be carnage if they run another series like this one outside NZ. The homogenous mental attitude of Kiwis lent itself to self control of the spectating boats (apart from one occasion when a boat ran into the start area). But even in Auckland, the spectators were way too close. 9.5 tonnes at 40 knots. Not worht thinking about.

[@weatheranddarkness]

@@petertelford5338 hadn't even considered spectators! Remember that tack the brits pulled right up on the spectator boats, in one of the round robin races I think?

[@BruceHoult]

I agree that Outteridge should have been sailing not commentating -- though he's not American either. But what the heck was up with the huge steering wheel vibrations on American Magic? Poor Deano was holding on for dear life.

[@johnmartin7158]

Nathan Outteridge is extremely talented Bruce. NZ

[@racketman2u]

wheels needed balancing?

[@WhatAboutTheBee]

I'd say that the rudder itself lacked sufficient stiffness to keep the natural resonant frequency of the rudder above the excitation frequency. That is, the very act of water flow over the rudder surfaces excited a mechanical mode, and the frequency of that mode was low enough to develop resonance. The solution is to stiffen the rudder such that the NRF is driven higher

[@dougphillips239]

@@WhatAboutTheBee agree the rudder looked as if it was behaving like bluff body shedding massive eddies

[@rbcg105]

Resonance frequency of Dean was all wrong for the boat. Transferring those vibrations into the rudder. Total nightmare.