American Nationalism: Rich Lowry vs. Alex Nowrasteh

Rich Lowry and Alex Nowrasteh debate the resolution, "Nationalism is an important value that Americans should support." The event was produced by The Soho Forum, a monthly debate series presented by Reason Foundation, the nonprofit that publishes Reason.
For the affirmative: Richard Lowry is the editor in chief of National Review. He was selected to lead the news outlet by its founder, William F. Buckley. Lowry writes a syndicated column for King Features and a weekly column for Politico. He is also a commentator for NBC News. His most recent book is The Case for Nationalism: How It Made Us Powerful, United, and Free.
For the negative: Alex Nowrasteh is the director of economic and social policy studies at the Cato Institute where most of his work has focused on immigration. He is widely published in newspapers, blogs, and peer-reviewed academic journals. He is the coauthor (with Benjamin Powell) of the book Wretched Refuse? The Political Economy of Immigration and Institutions (Cambridge University Press, 2020), which is the first book on how economic institutions in receiving countries adjust to immigration. He is a native of Southern California and received an MS in economic history from the London School of Economics.

[@d.johnson]

1:04:21 "Hitler was not a nationalist" - Rich is DEEP into "real socialism has never been tried" territory with his definition of nationalism.

[@Hesadryt]

Dear God. “Napoleon and Hitler weren’t nationalists” 😂😂😂 Rich, try reading some books before you write anymore.

[@tann_man]

I’ve been saying this for years. Whether the debaters realize it or not nearly all debates revolve around a battle of defining terms. This debate is an excellent example

[@tom_ad9343]

The dictionaries just changed the definition of man...welcome to the language games.

[@danielmanly4793]

@@tom_ad9343 What is the definition of vaccine? ha ;)

[@yengsabio5315]

Program starts at 5:00. Debate proper starts at 22:00.

[@chicago618]

It actually starts at 13:00 but thanks anyway.

[@DanHowardMtl]

13:00 ass

[@username65585]

It’s quite funny that the guy they got to defend nationalism did not even know the definition of a nation.

[@Rh3ttD4v1s]

As someone who finds themselves as somewhere in between libertarianism and conservatism, this was very interesting to listen to. Alex had me with "Nationalism is to stalking, as patriotism is to love."

[@somercet1]

... What?

[@ludwigvonsowell5347]

Someone needs to fix the editing. Audio doesn’t match up with video.

[@jazzgrackle1021]

I have no issue with shared cultural and political values. Having a coherent vision of your country is important. What I don’t like is the idea that somehow your life is less important if you aren’t a member of my nation.

[@JoeBizzle]

I've been undecided on many a debate. This might be the first time I went into a debate agreeing with the resolution and left it disagreeing.

[@DanielWoike]

As an ideological private law society market anarchist (libertarian), but with great fondness for traditional American conservatism, I disagreed with Rich Lowry way more than Alex, but I still feel like Alex didn't do as good of a job as he could. He should of talked more about how Rich Lowry's version of conservatism is not rooted in the American tradition, which has always been about strong decentralization, and federalism.

[@usnbostx2]

I think this debate was a missed opportunity - debating a definition rather than the substance. What Rich defended isn’t necessarily what opponents of “nationalism” oppose. Alex became distracted by the definitions and didn’t hone in on the real concerns.

[@usnbostx2]

@pawlakov1 perhaps articulates this better than I with his citation

[@ilusha88]

Good job Grant! Really enjoyed it!

[@grantswift]

Thanks!

[@Force1Com]

Goddamn when does the debate start

[@lowbudgetmic]

This so Jerry Springer minus the beating up aspect... 😮

[@alexanderx33]

This right here won it for me. "It's an ideology of GROUP-RIGHTS, that denigrates individualism in favor of an ABSTRACTION known as a tribe or in this case the nation." Arbitrarily grouping and drawing conclusions from statistics concerning those groups is the source of nearly all stupidity in social policy. The letter of law is at it's best when group membership is totally ignored.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

44:01 Nation, country and state are all distinct concepts.

[@alittleoffthespectrum7459]

I was a bit disappointed. I thought Richard wasn't prepared for the arguments he would be facing. Alex beat him rhetorically, but I felt his arguments weren't solidly grounded. I pick apart some of the less grounded arguments here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ol6vaGOsedCVp7M

[@ewangent]

Anyone who has lived under peculiar nationalisms, like oneself, living in Scotland a nation within Great Britain, can tell you is that it's a double-edged sword.

[@Jeca1789]

Like a Claymore?

[@ewangent]

More like a battleaxe a term that might fit our tartan-clad oligarch.

[@Force1Com]

I vote for the British empire and napoleon

[@frenchstudentA]

Seems like Rich is in favor of "nation-ism" (i.e. a territory having a single government as established by the Peace of Westphalia in 1648 is the default unit of international relations and internal governance) and "American-ism" rather than nationalism. His argument seems to be, basically, "I love America, America is a great nation, therefore I'm a nationalist and nationalism is good, because America is good." The best moment in this debate was when he was asked at what point a nation becomes an empire---for which he did not have a good answer. It lays bare that "nationalists" are just would-be imperialists who have enough strength to dominate and centralize power over one group of people, but aren't strong enough to start exerting that power over others. Hence, German nationalism was nationalism when Prussians were forcing French speakers in Alsace to pay German taxes and speak German, but somehow it is "imperialism" when they attempt to do the same thing to Belgians. Shame no one asked Rich about the Uighurs in China. Aren't they being "reeducated" so they can become a part of the Chinese nation?

[@Hesadryt]

Countryism (if you want to avoid the term statism, otherwise statism is perfectly fine). He isn't arguing for countries based on nation (ie a group of ethnically, linguistically, and culturally similar people), he's basically arguing for status quo countries to continue as they are but embrace all people living within their borders as citizens. He condemns the Habsburg empire but if the empire existed today he would basically be arguing for it. Either he knows this and he's trying to trick far righters into accepting nationalism as just civic mindedness (which as Alex said would be -far- better than actual nationalism), or he really needs to do some reading.

[@johnweber4577]

I mean, wouldn't nation-ism technically still have the same problematic Latin root word (natio) that was the centerpiece of Alex's case?

[@danielmanly4793]

I would enjoy, briefly, listening to these chaps debate the definitions of vaccine and recession...

[@richardkut3976]

Music? What's up?

[@charleshawn]

If nationalists are naught zees, what are globalists?

[@sgtjitters8980]

You can't say what they are out loud lol

[@matrixman8582]

Libertarians

[@01nmuskier]

@@matrixman8582 😂🤣😂gtfo

[@sgtjitters8980]

@@matrixman8582 ah yes, the people WHO WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE AND HAVE LITTLE TO NO GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE IN THEIR PERSONAL LIVES are totally authoritarian despots. Not the people that have been running around calling themselves Democrats right, they say "for democracy" and destroy independent governments all around the world? You know the people that actually run the world economic forum and most governments at this point?

[@poptraxx418]

Nationalist are insane same with globalist who want a one world government

[@JonathanRossRogers]

53:51 Rich Lowry really failed when he tried to claim that Hitler wasn't a nationalist. I'm sure he was aware of what the "N" in NAZI stands for.

[@tann_man]

I was 50/50 going into the debate. The final question at 1:30:45 sold me on No. Where do we draw the line for a legitimate nation’s scope? Surely not at global domination. The size of an empire? No. Russia including Ukraine? Just Russia? There are major differences between many Russians surely some are being held agains their will as part of the nation, it would be good if they could break apart. State? Province? differences between people groups that require violence to enforce participation exist even at province level. Ultimately we reach the individual. Funny how the logical of conclusion of many ideologies end this way. Nationalism, Intersectionality, and Gender theory. To name a few.

[@absolutmauser]

This is the first time watching the SOHO Forum made me dumber. 🤦

[@absolutmauser]

Grant Swift was awesome though

[@grantswift]

@Graham Rollins Thank you Graham! 🙏

[@absolutmauser]

@@grantswift you were the silver lining in this one! 😁

[@brianv1981]

Wow, that escalated! 😆😅🤣

[@NILLOC17]

"Was Alexander Hamilton a proto-fascist?" Yes.

[@jazzgrackle1021]

Can you unpack that for me?

[@Force1Com]

So let me guess, no one's opinion was changed

[@Xamufam]

patriotism and nationalism are the same thing

[@Pawlakov1]

Taken from Kuehnelt-Leddihn: "[...] nationalism has a purely ethnic connotation and implies an exaggerated enthusiasm about culture, language, folklore, ways of life. Patriotism, on the other hand, puts emphasis on the country. A patriot will be happy if there are many nationalities living in his Fatherland, whose keynote ought to be variety, not uniformity. The nationalist is hostile toward all those who do not ethnically conform. Thus nationalism (as understood on the Continent) is the blood brother of racialism.", and in other place: "Unlike patriotism, nationalism is argumentative: The nationalist tries to prove the superiority of his nation by pointing out its unique characteristics, achievements, virtues, qualities, institutions, traditions. The patriot sees in his attachment merely a manifestation of loyalty, just as an intelligent man would never try to argue that his parents were the 'best in the world'; he would consider it an accident to have been born as a citizen of a specific country-which he did not choose. He did not choose his parents either, but he will naturally love them, and if he does not love them he will be loyal to them in obedience to the Commandment - even if they are very ordinary, even if they are manifestly inferior people."

[@johnweber4577]

I tend to see patriotism as being a personal feeling and nationalism a form of political organization. Neither is necessarily nativist or jingoistic unto itself, but the two have become intertwined with nationalism in the past. They’re what critics of nationalism generally think of when they hear the word.

[@quhawks48]

What is the opposite of nationalism? Its globalism. Im not the opposite of a globalist.

[@michaelhutchings6602]

You are a socialist

[@joeblowunlimited]

First guy loses the debate, don't even need to hear the other guy. -Z-

[@bluewater454]

Why did rich lowry lose the debate? Just because you disagree with him?

[@krotchlickmeugh627]

@@bluewater454 wouldnt that be quite obvious?

[@bluewater454]

@@krotchlickmeugh627 Yah. It’s called notanargument. Mental laziness.

[@krotchlickmeugh627]

@@bluewater454 nah. Its called common sense. If you dint agree with someone you dont think they did well in an interview. Subjectively. You may disagree. But you dont get to discredit or call someone you disagree with a mentally ill person

[@bluewater454]

@@krotchlickmeugh627 Who said anything about “mental illness”? Maybe you need to read a little more carefully. Disagreement is fine, but simply disagreeing without a reason is mental laziness, not “common sense”.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

Imagine criticizing Nationalism for being just "theoretical" as a libertarian lmfao!

[@vainwretch]

Ok , this guy who talks about supposedly what nationalism is has been reading to much about what other's are saying ? Nationalism is about sovereignty of a country. Not all countries connected at the hip , ideology or economically . If America is healthy economically then we can help other countries . Multinational corporations with decisions by our politicians have made us bigger pawns than we used to be in the past. Government is only for creating the environment for us to flourish economically as we are all individuals with rights. Healthcare should be ran by private companies not the government. If someone needs financial help then the government should pay private insurance companies. With any insurance company doing business in the USA be obligated to take on a percentage of indigent care . We should all pay the same rate for health insurance as if it was a group rate and health insurance next to non profit as possible. No more multinational companies , if you do business in the USA , employee actual Americans , then there is no competition from outside the country. Things manufactured outside the country are then tariffed to make up the difference. Lower taxes so we have more to spend and stop our government from aggressively making decisions that makes us further in debt. Have a plan to suspend spending and freeze spending on all nonessential programs for five years and balance our debt. All of the executive orders of the previous presidents combined should be heavily scrutinized if still standing. No more laws for politicians that they are exempt from . No more secret courts that pay off for sexual harassment claims or for vaccine damages. I am at the 48:26 minutes of the video and i cant take it anymore. Seems like the guy is clueless about the corruption of our government on a global scale . You idiots don't get the reason Trump got popular is because he isn't a politician and is a good business man that has a proven history of getting things done and not postulating about it . This debate just seems like more propaganda to sway the people. As Elon Musk releases actual truth of what Hillary , Obama and the Democrats have been up to silencing any and all that disagree or who do not want to blindly follow. Now magically Musk is the new Trump ? Julian Assange tells the truth about USA politicians and politics he has disappeared. Trump is so clean the haters have to make stuff up about him to try to bring him down. Nationalism to what Adolph wanted was never Trump. Nationalism for Trump and most Americans is American excellence in our culture through technology and culture. No one left behind but you have to earn it by working for it so you are proud of yourself and what you have . No free lunches economically for corporation's . Workers are first before shareholders . It should not be a negative if a corporation breaks even financially instead of having to have constant growth that is not sustainable . The federal government should stay out of social issues completely such as homosexuality and abortion. We have the same rights and laws for everyone . There is one race , the human race. It wasn't that long ago that our country had a morality that came from Judge/Christian ethic's. The hell bent push to distance us as a culture from this is the cause of our many woes. Casual free sex without the commitment to God and marriage . Children out of wedlock , abortion and the destruction of the American family combined with our jobs outsourced to countries with no , EPA , OSHA and lower standards of living. We need to return to what made us great and if you don't see that was a humble worship and acknowledgement of Jesus then you don't get it. There is a reason why there are so many church buildings in our country and cities named after cities in the bible. There is also a reason many of these churches are closed or hardly filled on Sunday and the violence we are experiencing . I don't care if it is Trump or someone else we need a revival and return to the truths that made us great. Instead of denial of the truth of salvation through the sacrifice , blood and ressurection of Jesus Christ. God judged Israel when they turned their back on God . He will do the same to America if we don't change and humble ourselves to the sovereign place God has over us all and we are beginning to experience this now .

[@olegsosnickov9564]

Take your pills, please

[@wolflarson71]

Stark raving nuts

[@danielmanly4793]

I found the claim that CA and AU are free nations, given the insane COVID restrictions, rather amusing.

[@Hesadryt]

Rich’s arguments are some of the goofiest things I’ve ever heard. Argues (correctly) that the Austrian Habsburgian empire wasn’t nationalist… later argues “if we aren’t a nation why do we have borders?”… did the habsburgian empire not have borders? Borders aren’t just a function of nation-states. So many silly, self-contradictory arguments for his position.

[@Hesadryt]

Rich needs to pick up a book quite honestly, nation and state are not the same thing.

[@Force1Com]

Stop doing drugs people

[@rickjames5998]

then these 2 G's couldnt debate. lmao