Americans Are Religious About America

Join our Patreon community!: / religionforbreakfast
One-time donations here!: www.paypal.me/religionforbrea...
Check out my favorite religious studies books: www.amazon.com/shop/religionf...
American Civil Religion Episode 1: "Americans Are Religious About America."
This episode is an introduction to American Civil Religion. It launches a 5-part series on the topic. Basically, American Civil Religion is when Americans are religious about America. The series argues that Americans are being religious when they create and curate American identity and ideals. Stay tuned for future episodes.
Follow me on Twitter at: @andrewmarkhenry
Special thanks to the Foundation for Religious Literacy for sponsoring this series: tfrl.org/
Thanks to Dr. David McConeghy for researching and writing this episode! Follow him on Twitter at: @dmcconeghy
Referenced videos:
Coca-Cola is a Religion: • Is Coca-Cola a Religion?
What is Religion?: • What Is Religion?
Image credits:
National Anthem protest: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._na...

[@ReligionForBreakfast]

My first foray into serialized content! Currently planning 5 episodes, but it may be extended. Support the ongoing series on Patreon!: www.patreon.com/religionforbreakfast

[@DavidMcconeghy]

ReligionForBreakfast There are so many more areas to include! Viewers have already suggested below discussions of nationalism and Constitution/Bible

[@lukasmakarios4998]

This is an excellent topic. I'm waiting on tenterhooks to see the next episode. Good job!

[@Dave_Sisson]

I've always wondered why, uniquely among western countries, the United States is so patriotic, inward looking and perhaps even jingoistic. In other places like Europe, the UK, Australia, etc., people using words like nationalist or patriot are regarded with suspicion, but the Americans appear to embrace those concepts without reservation.

[@calamityjess8161]

I love that you're exploring this concept. For quite some time, I've been pondering the likelihood of a religion of Americanism (at least that's what I've been calling it) developing as a sort of branch off from the American practice of pseudo-Christianity in the semi-distant future. Of course, I'm branching out a bit from what you're covering there.

[@Richex112]

The CK2 mod After the End is set in post apocalyptic America where people have reverted to medieval technology and society. One of the large religions in the remains of USA is Americanism which believes the founding fathers were gods and the constitution a holy text based on how pre-fall Americans treated them. Really interesting how my perspective changed when I realized this could plausibly happen based on how people in America are today.

[@elfarlaur]

I was thinking the exact same thing

[@faithlesshound5621]

There was an episode of Star Trek along those lines. Is that what you mean by "CK2 mod"?

[@hpsauce1078]

@@faithlesshound5621 CK2 is crusader kings 2 a rather complex grand strategy videogame set in the early medieval to early modern period, but you can mod it to set it in any fictional feudal style universe you can think of including post apocalyptic america

[@jcavs9847]

Large? More like 5 characters that always get curbstomped unless you intervene in favour of them

[@MasterAdam100]

Can Leftists be Washingtonists or Americanists? What are it's views on Anarchism?

[@witchypoo7353]

This strongly reminds me of Ancient Rome. The way they saw the world and their world views are quite similar in some ways to our own. Even their mythology that tells the story of the founding of Rome was very patriotic, not just religious. They also used that story to justify how violent their society was.

[@JoDee172]

Thought the same while watching this 👍

[@svandergaast1]

Well, America and the west in general do get a lot of their cultural values from Greco-Roman culture perhaps even more than the Judeo-Christian tradition.

[@john2432]

That makes complete since. The Founding Fathers were obsessed with the Romans. They viewed them as the perfect statesmen and citizens

[@samhamer1425]

Americans are the new Romans… they have the eagle too!

[@stoutyyyy]

My most visceral experience of this was in the National Archives. The room they keep the Constitution in is modelled around the Pantheon in Rome, and they keep the lights dim to preserve the documents and I half expected to smell incense. They also have paintings on the walls depicting the signers of both the Declaration and Constitution, and in the center of them is George Washington in his uniform and a white cloak over top. It really felt like a religious place.

[@weedAndTransRights]

@@NSOcarthmore evidence america holds itself as a religious institution, hence american civil religion

[@nomadicmonkey3186]

I've always viewed nationalism as religious at its core, though individual nationalisms in various nations differ greatly from very secular to almost inseparable from traditionally deist religions. I'm looking forward to see how you define American civil religion.

[@peterkotara]

As an outside observer, I concur.

[@werrkowalski2985]

It's a bit unfair, because USA is unique in that it is very civil nationalist, not ethnonationalist. Civil nationalism is essentially cultural and it is artificially constructed, and American identity was built, originally people considered themselves to be members of their states. To make that emergence of strong American national identity possible, it was necessary to introduce some theological elements (essentially political theology). In other countries you don't need to go to such lengths to bring together people of a single ethnicity and common background.

[@tissuepaper9962]

"deist" doesn't mean what you think it means. You wanted the word "theist".

[@matts1392]

Between being a former soldier, and working in DC and seeing the monumental architecture symbolizing American statecraft every day, I would definitely agree that American civic religion is a thing. I would draw a parallel with ancient Greek and Roman state religion. By the same token, I think that American culture has its mystery cults as well, in the form of sports teams and political movements.

[@jesusislordsavior6343]

Matt S Your comments are quite insightful. Possibly your founders would have been flattered by the comparison with classical antiquity. I'm not American, but I did spent several formative years in the US. I was converted while there, and began attending church regularly at that time. I thank the Lord (the REAL God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) that my pastor shied away from displays of American civil religion. I don't think that his holding back had anything to do with the presence of a contingent of foreign students; he was following his own conviction. He used a July 4th service to speak of America's sins and, by contrast, the fruitful role of American missionaries in world. I know that not all pastors are so careful to prune their message and keep it focused on Christ.

[@infernocop1009]

sports fans as mystery cults is going to stick with me.

[@vfanon]

Anarchopunk is 100% a mystery cult

[@simpleandawesomeanime3220]

"In the name of Founding Fathers, the Gun, and the Holy Hamburger. Amen" XD

[@bryanbradley6871]

In the name of the holy Constitution..

[@shifujikafan3720]

In the name of Columbia

[@ThaFashionAssassin]

The Golden Arches

[@boaoftheboaians]

Ngl I laughed at this comment 😂

[@marksanders2168]

NFL Sunday mass 😅

[@Graysonn1]

Will you be covering american exceptionalism? The idea that America is inherently better than all other nations. Or that america has a mission.

[@DavidMcconeghy]

Graysonn1 I’m not sure it quite made the list of things in these first few episodes, but it’s definitely a major element of historical American Civil Religion and how we narrate myths about ourselves.

[@islandletters]

I would add Manifest Destiny

[@scaper8]

@@islandletters Agreed, but I think that things like Manifest Destiny fall into the broader idea of American Exceptionalism. It comes, at least in part, from the ideas that America is "better" than the groups that inhabit and/or control these areas and, therefore, should bring "America" to them, making them, at least partly, better. America "deserves" these lands and people because America is simply better.

[@saluvictori1075]

Just wanted to say: you inspire me. I highly appreciate your content and your cogent arguments. It’s great to have someone appealing to such an underrated and fascinating subject! Never stop making your videos 🙏

[@aericvsj483]

This just sounds like state worship with extra steps.

[@josephjagusah8668]

"You don't have to believe in your government, you just have to believe in your country"

[@RonJohn63]

We don't worship the state, we "worship" the *idea* which is America.

[@allgodsnomasters2822]

@@RonJohn63 Why would one worship Colonial Genocide?

[@RonJohn63]

@@allgodsnomasters2822 the _idea_ of America is not colonial genocide.

[@allgodsnomasters2822]

@@RonJohn63 Well if you dont look at the world and just take the state propaganda's word for it I guess

[@kellymaurer5874]

I would love if you talked about mega churches and their relationship to politics in this series!

[@DavidMcconeghy]

Kelly Maurer I don’t think we’ll quite get there in this series, but if things go well there’s tons more really interesting topics like this that we’d love to discuss.

[@DavidMcconeghy]

@@philiphoyle You could be right. But which Christianity should we talk about and in what era? Catholic opinions on schooling in the mid 19c drastically impacted the shape of public primary education. Similarly, evangelical home schooling has had an impact since the 1950s. Should we look at only white mainline voices? Or about the differences between Latinx and Black evangelical and their white evangelical counterparts? The fundamental issue with heading down the denominational/tradition-based path is that it requires a level of detail that we can't really address in 8 minute videos. On this, thankfully there's a ton of excellent scholarship including Kevin Kruse's very accessible "One Nation Under God." Other items include works by Matthew Avery Sutton, Darren Dochuck, Mark David Hall, Michelle Goldberg, Bethany Moreton, and Daniel K. Williams to name just a few. If we expand beyond 5 episodes, we'll absolutely get to talk about the kinds of things Randall Balmer deals with in his book God in the White House, where Christianity and the oval office intersect in revealing ways.

[@DavidMcconeghy]

Philip Hoyle no doubt. There’s an excellent podcast called “Straight White American Jesus” by Dan Gorman and Bradley Onishi that you’d probably find very on point.

[@drakependragon9331]

This should be a good series, excited.

[@charlesdeschampsdeboishebe9672]

Anyone familiar with Bioshock Infinite's treatment of this?

[@Thessalin]

Good call! Such a good reference.

[@dsequencer5964]

Yep

[@verbulent_flow6229]

Yes!

[@nickverbree]

Man, I am so excited for this series. I'm neither American, nor religious, but I am fascinated to see your analysis of this.

[@seadawg93]

Mind=blown! Kind of obvious in hindsight, and I’ve heard it in passing as an interesting idea, but I’m excited to go deep into an explicit scholarly discussion about this!

[@lostcat9lives322]

"The flag is a symbol and I leave symbols to the symbol-minded"-George Carlin.

[@bradstull9654]

In Carlin's name Amen

[@ArsenicMint925]

So mote it be.

[@RonJohn63]

I hate to break it to Carlin, but we're *all* (even us atheists and rationalists) symbol-minded, because that's what humans are: symbol processors.

[@baltofarlander2618]

Hurr Durr symbols are meaningless and matter is everything that exists.

[@theliegeofshadows]

@@RonJohn63 I find that Jungian psychology pretty accurately explains the conscious and unconscious mind and the collective unconscious which comes with each one. It's all hypothetical, but the logic strongly holds up, in my opinion. I think that dude was really onto something.

[@abbiearcher4716]

This is a really interesting video because it also asks questions about nationhood and "state religion" in other countries. For example, in University we studied nations, more specifically Ireland and the Irish, and how a nation isn't necessarily a people in a country but a a certain group of people linked to an area or diaspora through cultural traditions. We learnt about how symbols and monuments relating to Ireland and it's independence were preserved while places that were linked to the time it was under England/British control were left to decay. The question is though, can we separate what is national to what can be considered to be "state religion". For example, I'm Scottish. Although Scotland is not an independent nation (as of writing) we do have a lot of symbols and traditions that would come under this definition of state religion. The Flags (The Saltire and the Lion Rampant), things like Tartan, Monuments like the Scottish Parliament building, Edinburgh Castle, the Wallace Monument, and a national anthem (Flower of Scotland) and nationalistic songs (Highland Cathedral, Scotland the Brave, Auld Lang Syne). We even have stories like the Wars of Independence and the Jacobite Rebellion in the same way the US has their Wars of Independence. But alongside that (although I would say Scottish State Religion is the more dominant Civil Religion) we also have British Civil Religion, especially relating to more unionist groups which hold things like Rule Britannia, World War Two, Nelson, and the Royal Family up more. Do you think that Civil religion can apply to other nations too?

[@DavidMcconeghy]

Abbie Archer Absolutely. Bellah believed they did and others have written about how their other national civil religious traditions work. You’re spot on!

[@lshulman58]

@Skeptic Psychologist I think you make a helpful distinction between religion (the object of reverence being something we worship) and mere nationalism, being something we value or revere and even consider "sacred" (like the US Constitution) but stop short on worshipping.

[@Delmworks]

Wonder what Australian civil religion is like…most I got is the obsession with the ANZACs and the idea that “she’ll be right mate!”

[@trentclarkson9655]

I've been waiting for this topic for so long! Thanks so much for committing to an entire series on it!

[@Skepticallady]

I'm so thankful for your work, I don't care if you're an atheist or theist, agnostic or any of other label. You are an incredible analytical human being who brings knowledge and tries to unite instead of divide and that's the most important thing. Thank you again, specially during these uncertain times.

[@NotThatRichard]

*spits out coke after drinking from a Coca-Cola cup, wearing a Coca-Cola shirt* WHAT?!

[@npcx-mq6cr]

It's funny how people are always surprised that marketing strategies are consistent regardless of the product.

[@enriquekahn9405]

This is my favorite video you've done so far. Please continue this series and do more on the same lines!

[@user-zd7fi1fh6r]

Yours is excellent work with difficult subjects. I appreciate your competence, and I admire your intellect.

[@Serai3]

This looks excellent. Thank you for starting this series on a subject I've always found fascinating. I look forward to the exploration!

[@princesssshortie]

Great video, as always. I can't wait to watch the rest of the series!

[@Leiferuphugus]

Very much appreciate the way you think and present things. My patreon $ are well spent here.

[@ReligionForBreakfast]

Thanks so much for the support! Couldn't do it without you all.

[@CheddarBayBaby]

For a channel this well researched and non controversial, you’ve accumulated a really decent following. I don’t spend a lot of time on this channel, but I really hope you keep up the good work. Will definitely be considering Patreon support in the future.

[@valp618]

You are so thoughtful and articulate. Your videos are by far the best educational videos on youtube! Thank you!

[@mariethe_patate3696]

I'm looking forward for the next episodes... Keep up the good work!!!

[@matthewbateman6487]

I have thought this ever since I became an adult. I'm excited to hear more, and I'm excited to see how this is so *for America* in contrast to other nations

[@Serai3]

I've heard and read a number of people from other countries comment on how MUCH Americans care about being Americans, and how it's just not like that in most other countries. Our fervor about the 4th of July, our worship of the Constitution, etc. It puzzles a lot of people from other lands.

[@IkeOkerekeNews]

Civil religion is very common thing around the world.

[@natureswrath7665]

@@Serai3 yet they probably have their own versions, fact of the matter is most people worship their countries and are blind to it.

[@JoDee172]

@@IkeOkerekeNews uh... "very common"... Really?

[@IkeOkerekeNews]

@@JoDee172 Yes! Pretty much every country have symbols, rituals, and ceremonies on sacred days and places, which legitimize and promote the existence of those states.

[@-----------g-]

I always thought Americans saw the constitution as a scripture. Not being able to see it as a piece of literature that may not always be relevant but rather as immutable and applicable to all times (like how Muslims view the Quran). Americanism is a theology.

[@xfghkhjfsejid]

Amen.

[@nigelplanters8595]

Ameen*

[@DavidMcconeghy]

Definitely! Although to be clear it’s actually been the Bible in American history that has held this pride of place. Seth Perry has a really good book about this. The shift from Bible to Constitution is a post-Civil War and maybe even Cold War development.

[@TheJesterInYellow]

There is a large, large difference between Islam and constitutional republics. If you compare them and come away with the idea that they're of the same stock, you're just being asinine.

[@Autists-Guide]

Yup. Lots of parallels. Not just 'scripture'. Flag / cross, Lincoln / messiah-saviour, founding fathers / heavenly father. It's about 'assurance'... natural order vs. sacred order. But here's one to muse over... In Judaism, the scripture is the "first word of god" which means that it (and god) can be challenged; in Islam the scripture is the "last word of god" which means that it (and god) can _not_ be challenged. Now consider the US constitution and those who think it can be updated (challenged / amended) and those who think it cannot (Originalists). Also, as an aside, consider a Presidential system (as opposed to a Parliamentary system) and listen to people being interviewed about the up-coming US election... spot the moments when interviewees talk about their choice for leader as some kind of saviour (irrespective of political stances).

[@VansLegacy]

A great Jungian way to look at the founding of America. I remembered discovering the concept of America Civil Religion this past summer and it was fascinating

[@demboislife3755]

I am really excited for this series!

[@chandlerlee3946]

Super interesting episode! Can't wait to see more.

[@c0mmment]

Im excited!!!! You deliver your points very well

[@bozjeemma]

Just found your channel and I'm already so excited for this series!

[@deathofanotion]

Looking forward to this series!

[@katximotxilis]

For a foreigner, the cultish touch of Americanism is easy to spot. The pledge of Allegiance... no one else in the world does this sort of prayer to a flag. The obsession with the constitution - a document highly progressive for the late 18th century, but full of anachronisms and overdue for a thorough revision. The claim by all sides to act according to the intents of the founding fathers, as if ancestral spirits were watching. They may have been wise people at their time, but they couldn't have given valid advice when it comes to molecular genetics or global warming. And the whole idea that something being 'American' in spirit actually meant anything beyond a self-elating empty phrase. Many many examples more that, yes, it's a cult.

[@Sewblon]

The idea that being of some particular country holds some normative meaning does pop up in other times and places. In pre-revolutionary France, the argument that the abolition movement used to convince the courts to outlaw slavery in France, was that slavery is anti-French, because the word "French" means "free."

[@katximotxilis]

Good point, I should have been more specific that I see it as an outlier in today's world. The whole idea of a 'nation', though, is not a lot older than the 18th century, I believe (but correct me I if I'm wrong!). And my intuition would be that most French now and then wouldn't make the connection between 'français' and the Germanic 'Franks' ('The Free') from where their name had derived. Just like nobody remembers Amerigo Vespucci when talking America ;-) But your point is still valid, things like this happened before.

[@souadhamidi2354]

It is the topic of my Phd dissertation which I will defend Tuesday November 16. Thank you for your video it was of a great help. Much appreciated🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@jasonblankenship5166]

Very excited about this series. I touch on civil religion in my civics class, but this seems like it will let me give another perspective on it to students that is accessible.

[@ABird971]

Well done man!

[@rileyc1511]

Oh man this is gonna be awesome

[@thegodofimagination]

Well Americans did make a goddess named Colombia

[@faithlesshound5621]

"Stand Columbia" is still sung to the tune of the last Holy Roman Emperor's "Kaiserhymne."

[@thegodofimagination]

@@faithlesshound5621 oh wow really that is so cool

[@xoanwahn]

So excited for this! I've been interested in this concept for a long time, but I've never seen someone go into it so I can't wait!

[@vald3064]

Funny, I'm interested in American Civil Religion and Southern Regional Religion for my thesis. Thanks a lot for the video and looking forward to watching the following!!

[@aniksamiurrahman6365]

This is a great video. I never thought like this.

[@piperar2014]

Interesting. I'm still thinking of patriotism and religion as separate things. But I can see similarities. Will wait and see how the series develops.

[@DavidMcconeghy]

Yup. I don't think it's our goal to show they're the same thing, but the strong similarities are worth talking about. *Why* are they similar and *what* does that mean?

[@thomasgeschke9553]

@skullpull 101 How do you define nationalism and patriotism?

[@Tarik360]

Yup, and I find it quite fascinating and awe-inspiring in a sense.

[@chiron14pl]

Holidays and the civil religious calender: One near national holiday that is completely civil is Super Bowl Sunday. Our calendar for summer begins with Memorial Day and ends with Labor Day. The pervasive nature of American consumerism makes an old Pagan holiday like Halloween a major event, our thanksgiving is also a purely civil holiday. The consumerism transforms (some say trivialize) holidays with a religious background (e.g. Christmas, Easter) as completely commercial events aimed at buying stuff. Yes, we have a deeply held civil religion. Other cultures likewise have their civil religions

[@bengeldinger]

I love all your videos..but as a political/history junkie I think I will really love this series

[@ramingr]

This is really interesting! Would you say that national socialism could be approached in the same manner as a religion? I would love to see a viseo on that!

[@ReligionForBreakfast]

I’d definitely say this lens can be applied to other countries. North Korea in particular comes to mind.

[@DavidMcconeghy]

Nationalism is discussed as a form of civil religion in a lot of scholarship. You’re definitely thinking in the right direction here.

[@TreespeakerOfTheLand]

I'd most certainly say so, but I am still just an undergrad in Religious Studies

[@oskarhenriksen]

@@ReligionForBreakfast They said national socialism. That'd be Nazism

[@cv4809]

If nationalism is a religion, then I can finally stop being an atheist

[@cipherklosenuf9242]

Great series on civic religion.

[@johnjosephcapolino1650]

This will be interesting. While I am a regular watcher of this forum i originally had issues with the title and took me a bit to go a head. It was not what expected and should be a great series. Never really thought about the myths and mythology we as Americans have created for our selves to explain how to be American. Thank you for letting me think about that concept.

[@DavidMcconeghy]

John Joseph Capolino thanks for sticking with it! I hope you enjoy the rest of them!

[@johnjosephcapolino1650]

@@DavidMcconeghy I should . Never seen anything I have not liked. It always makes me think.

[@OnlyBugmenWantedHandles]

Interesting, I recently listened to a radio broadcast by the late Fr. Thomas Hopko talking about this very phenomenon.

[@JayLeePoe]

Just read Grant's memoirs and follow The Commandant's reading list. Other cultures such as Eastern cultures have their own scholarship and histories that study "Strategy." I would say it is the turmoils of applying strategies which forge these ideas in any country's history; ours is both the most familiar and still most strange since we are so far removed from ourselves.

[@seanaaron7888]

Great video as always. :) Also, where did you get that shirt? Thanks...

[@ReligionForBreakfast]

Thanks! J.Crew

[@ramzikawa734]

Finally someone said it!

[@spicyroads]

Very interesting. The clear sense phrase says it all . What I see as clear may not be

[@esquizz0]

Looking forward to discover the other episodes. Maybe I'm being too Non-American, but I'd say that the use of America instead of United States (of America) is part of the system of believes of this religion. The point of this practice would be to expand the feeling that the «American religion» should be taken to the whole continent (and the rest of the world). Don't know if you'll explore this but here are my 2 cents haha.

[@davidcheater4188]

It might be useful to give examples of countries that have had Civil religions: The Roman Empire, pre-Communist China, Reign of Terror France, USSR, as opposed to ones that don't as a basis of comparison. What does it mean when the Head of State is a representative of National morality rather than just the person who happens to be in charge? What does it mean when there's an anthropomorphic manifestation of the state? What does the concept of Volksgeist mean?

[@moribundmurdoch]

Can you make a video on the cup of trembling next？

[@robertdoucet1207]

Notice how most holidays are either religious or national holidays. Nationalism in general takes on religious aspects to create societal cohesiveness.

[@jesusislordsavior6343]

Robert Doucet Babel is described as a grand effort toward social cohesiveness. (Genesis 10:4) 'They said, "Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name,otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.' What happened next? The Lord broke up their scheme, and scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth. Whether 'nationalist' or 'globalist' in conception, all such efforts are doomed in the long run to failure. No human empire lasts forever.

[@JoDee172]

Side note; does anyone know of, or remember the movie from the early 80s, " The Gods Must Be Crazy"? About how Coka-Cola became a religion?

[@surgeeo1406]

While on a flight to Brazil, my sister's plane land in... in US, I dond remember the state, while she's waiting, she noticed, very surprised, how there were portraits of Obama, Clinton etc on the walls, with flower vases on their sides, to her it tooked a lot like saints portraits in a catholic church, the only thing missing were the lit candles.

[@zachbunch8701]

That's odd I've literally never seen a photo of anyone in government except in a museum or government building

[@deprogramme369]

much like looking at Multi-Level Marketing Schemes with the context of what people have hypothesized the qualifications of a cult are, some religions and religious practices can also be cult-ish (huge example: Scientology). These Multi-Level Marketing Schemes behave or sometimes outright enable cults to exist, and sometimes big corporations behave much like MLM’s or sometimes evolve into them. I’d argue it isn’t a stretch to say that some corporations have cult characteristics much like some religions do, making corporations and religions similar, but obviously not THE same

[@scodama]

I am really looking forward to your upcoming essay about the US flag.

[@999YCM]

very much agree.

[@Shoes51]

What authors would you say inspired your ideas for this video? Nice channel.

[@micahparker6924]

I would like to know if you intend this as also a broader argument for patriotism as a whole being considered a religion, regardless of country. I will admit the symbolism and rituals feel different in other countries. I grew up my whole life in Honduras and there are a lot less symbols, rituals, and general feeling of Honduran values and tenants as compared to USA, but certainly every country has it's own individual views. I'd like to see you address this from the perspective of how it may vary by state, or the certain contexts from some individual states. For example, Texans are pretty violently Texan. Texas has their own identity that they will defend just as much as much or even more so than their American identity, and I can see that for other states. Some places go their own way. In Louisiana, I feel some people would often identify more like someone from Louisiana or Cajun first, and reflect those va I use first before American, but I still can see the underlying American Civil Religion in practice.

[@Set666Abominae]

Hi Andrew, just a quick thought/question: You very clearly separate any conception of American Civil Religion from nationalism in this video, but I do wonder if there is potential for fruitful analysis if looking through that lens as well? You cited Geertz in this video, who’s done some excellent work on ethnicity/nationalism as well as religion, but are you familiar with scholars such as Carlton Hayes, Michael Billig and Anthony D. Smith? All have publications either directly related to how religion and nationalism interact (Hayes’ ‘Nationalism: A Religion’ & Smith’s ‘Sacred Peoples’), or how dissemination of nationalist symbols in daily life, with America as one focus, can create something akin to civil religion (Billig’s ‘Banal Nationalism’). All well worth a look if you haven’t come across them!

[@magpiecity]

The King James Bible (without the Apocrypha) and the Constitution fell from the sky on 4 July in perfect leather binding. It was a fracking miracle!

[@omegafilming]

I'm sure the comments on this series will take it in good faith and remain 100% respectful 😅 nevertheless, thank you for making these videos--the topic sounds fascinating!

[@eomguel9017]

On this subject, I strongly recommend reading "A question of values" by Morris Berman. And yes, American national identity pretty much mirrors a real religion. That's not to say that other countries don't have any form of national pride of course; most of them do, but it is quite different to what you see in the US. Like seriously, I cannot imagine any politician/commentator/journalist from other Western country saying stuff like "That's so un-French", "You're being so un-Australian", "That policy is un-Peruvian" without being ridiculed on the spot!

[@jesusislordsavior6343]

EOM Guel You are not entirely correct. Yes, it sometimes it SEEMS to us outsiders that American hubris is on a level of its own, but all we have to do is examine ourselves. Even here in 'humble', 'nice' Canada, people talk about 'Canadian values'; and those differ somewhat, according to where one sits on the political spectrum. Furthermore, Canadians, who have one-tenth of your population and a tiny fraction of your military might, enjoy comparing themselves favorably to Americans. We have had 'medicare for all' since about 1970, and we can't imagine living without it, just as many of you can't imagine living with it. (Here's a little secret: it was implemented before budgetary deficits rocketed into outer space.) Pride is sin, and as it says, '..all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.'

[@jesusislordsavior6343]

EOM Guel I'd agree that nationalism isn't equally virulent everywhere. But here are some more examples. Dugin, the Russian philosopher who is supposed to be hiding in the wings, influencing Putin, says that there is a special Russian 'truth'. In the Slavophile tradition, Russia has a special redemptive role in world history. No wonder that Russia and America have had problems getting along from time to time. Whatever the Chinese say, their behavior is about as chauvinistic and imperialistic as anyone's these days. They detained (kidnapped) two Canadians in China in retaliation for the LEGAL house arrest of a Chinese businesswoman here; they won't hand them back and won't let them see anyone. They assembled a coalition of some 65 (?) nations to back up their Belt Road initiative. They talk of mutual cooperation, all sweetness and light; meanwhile they are shutting up a millions Uighurs (a Turkic minority) in detention camps, brainwashing them in party propaganda and trying to force Chinese identity on them. So if actions speak louder than words, the Chinese have as much 'pride' as Russians or Anglo-Saxons. Then there were the notorious squabbles among Balkan nations, which helped ignite ww1. It's not only the 'big guns' who have their 'pride'. Yes, and then there is Japanese 'shinto', which formed the religious basis of Japanese fascism until 1945. Apparently they believe that, unlike other humans, they are of 'divine' origin; and this special status authorized them to brutalize and massacre other Asians in the millions (Korean, Chinese, Filipino, etc.). How could I have forgotten the German Nazis? Their nationalism did not spring out of a vacuum.

[@jflaugher]

Good episode. But thinking about the "American Civic Religion" got me thinking about the Bible - specifically the Old Testament - and how it was really an anthology of the most important ancient Jewish documents and literature. A collection of books that helps religious Jews identify as Jewish. It tells them what it means to be Jewish. With that in mind, what books and documents do you think would do the same thing for Americans. What would an American Civic Religion Bible look like? What documents would form the Torah - what would be the history books, the literary and wisdom books, who would be our prophets?

[@gagishaggi6969]

Can you eventually do one on Britain and, per chance, France? Maybe even others? It would be so cool to know whether these places are really Christian or not

[@yensid4294]

I was going to contest your use of "religion" & argue for the use of "myth" instead but upon considering the deification of The Founding Fathers & how The Constitution is viewed (by some) as a holy text that cannot be changed & how incensed some people get at perceived disrespect of a flag, I would have to agree with you. It's more than just patriotism or nationalism. Interesting topic & informative video. 👍

[@larrykuenning5754]

As a U.S. citizen (by birth and lifelong residence) and a Christian pacifist (by belief and allegiance) I've been aware of the "American civil religion" phenomenon since sometime in the 1960s and have always been opposed to it. I think I first heard the term "American civil religion" within a few years after Bellah coined it, and learning the phrase helped crystallize my perception of "Americanism" as a dangerous rival of Christianity (even though they are often thought to be perfectly compatible).

[@chrispompu1019]

This is 100% correct

[@souadhamidi2354]

I think you should have dealt with Jean Jacques Rousseau, Durkheim, Machiavelli and Robert Neely Bellah and more recently Philip Gorsky

[@AmberyTear]

This is not just America but every country with strong nationalism. I've been reading about same similarities between religion and state from one Polish author and I see the same thing in Russia.

[@JoDee172]

Wrong... not the same at all

[@tissuepaper9962]

​@@JoDee172 didn't make the debate team in high school, did you buddy?

[@davidpaul1970]

Consider this series as a book. Write it.

[@dittbub]

I wonder if there are any parallels to the jewish religion/identity

[@allgodsnomasters2822]

Jews do not tied Judaism as an essential part of Jewishness, this can especially be seen in the Yiddish Anarchist movement

[@howardyates4848]

@@allgodsnomasters2822 Are you sure?

[@MasterAdam100]

Yes, we're sure. Jewishness can be both religious and cultural.

[@ceciliaandersson7253]

As an European this is very interesting. I love my country without saying it all the time or smashing people in the head with it. It also makes me aware of problems that needs fixing.

[@OmniphonProductions]

I love this premise! It's also worth noting that, much like...say...Christianity, people can look at the exact same foundational documents and come to completely different conclusions about what their authors intended. Perhaps that's because, like Religion, people pick and choose which documents (or parts of documents) to _revere_ and which to _ignore_ in order to maintain their individual (often indoctrinated) belief that, "America is supposed to be," whatever they WISH it were, _regardless_ of "Framers' Intent".

[@biblegirl]

Sounds neat

[@DrawnByDandy]

This is interesting from the perspective of someone from outside America

[@chriscanon8829]

You mentioned how coca cola could be considered a religion according to Geertz's definition. However, could it be that capitalism, like american civil religion, exists as a kind of economic religion?

[@DavidMcconeghy]

Chris Canon yes! The key work on this right now is by Kathryn Lofton. It’s a great read and available on Amazon!

[@faithlesshound5621]

I have often felt that economists function as a kind of priesthood in modern public discourse. Politicians invoke Adam Smith's dicta to "Justify the Works of God to Man." Bankers lecture us about "Moral Hazard."

[@natureswrath7665]

Most economists turn religious, especially communist but it happens to capitalism too.

[@monus782]

On Facebook I once met a guy who managed a page that promotes a religion that literally worships the Founding Fathers as deities which for some that looks like the setting of Bioshock Infinite, I guess that's the civil religion taken to it's logical conclusion. Considering the current political atmosphere many are concerned that the US may end up becoming a theocracy of sorts in the near future through the collapse of the wall of separation of Church and State, however if this civic religion is indeed an actual religion I guess we've been kinda like that already for some time.

[@TheAIKnowledgeHub]

This is a serious question. Are you saying patriotic = civil religion? If not, what is the difference based on your personal definition? If you answered this in the video, then I might of overlooked it. If that is the case, can you share a timestamp? The reason why I'm asking is I want to be on the same page as you. Because right now it seems like yet another person making up words for words that are already existing. I mean if you approached it as how is patriotic symbols and what not is the same or similar as religion. Then that is a highly interesting way to look at things, and it should be explored. But I don't think you used the word patriotic or patriotism once. So that is why it feels like you're making a word for a word that already exist.

[@DavidMcconeghy]

Craig Bennett II patriotism is usually thought of as devotion to a country in terms of one’s vigorous support. It doesn’t say much about the ideas you’re supporting. You could say America civil religion is a way of describing how America goes about its patriotism. In other words, America is religious about America, right? So we are making a parallel to patriotism, but there’s a lot more going on than simply defending America.

[@TheAIKnowledgeHub]

​@@DavidMcconeghy I think if you look at what was in the video where in any society you have icons that people hold to a high standard, and that makes it like religion. That has flaws, but it's more logical than saying "America is religious about America." The problem comes in is if America was an outlier when it comes to patriotism, then calling it religious would be more logical. But, most of the things that is viewed as patriotic is similar across the board. In the video it tried to use Holidays as an example. Most countries have holidays. Most will also view it as disrespectful to stomp on their government's symbols and flag. Yes, there is some things that make 1 country different from another. But supporting the flag, supporting the holidays, and so on is viewed as patriotic. In fact, if he is saying political parties have some religious parallels. I agree to a point, but I wouldn't call it a religion for the average person. However, the extremes I might be able to agree since it has a cult mentality at this time. Something to note is if you take a religious person and they faced bad times. The bulk of the time they still will believe in some higher power. If you take most in any government, and the government acts up. They can easily become anti their government. If it's religious then it should be asked, why is it far far far easier for the average person to change feelings about their country vs their religion

[@YK-ky7xk]

Can you address if and how America is different than other countries and nations

[@aaronmoreton]

Whelp, my wife reminded me of something she says frequently in regards to religious studies. "Even the best attempts to study and define religions fall short/are inadequate if it ignores the Holy Powers and Their agency."

[@DavidMcconeghy]

This is an interesting view. Since religious studies is a diverse field and covers lots of different religions, how would such concerns address instances where the religious folks themselves don't talk much about Holy Powers? This is true for many of the world's religions.

[@aaronmoreton]

@@DavidMcconeghy Doesn't matter how much they're talked about. Heck, there are some outright taboos at times involving talking about it. My wife is a polytheist. A lot of the reasons she and others do things in certain ways is, simply enough, is because that's the preference of the Holy Power* in question. Building and maintaining "right relationship" with Holy Powers in part requires basic consideration for Their preferences and the engagement of sacred hospitality in engagement to address those preferences. It's interesting to hear her talk about other religions sometimes. === * When she uses the term "Holy Powers" it is to refer to Beings that are as such whether they be Gods or not. Like, if you asked her, the Buddha is a Holy Power that isn't a Deity. So, more about Their natures and capabilities I guess? She could probably write a book if she had the patience to.

[@cfmpam498230]

Our God " E Pluribus Unum ", The best of all the Gods!!!

[@WBWhiting]

I see religion as expressing itself through such means as symbolism and artistic expression, instead of seeing any large organized symbolism as being its own religion. I think that the contrary view to my way of thinking assumes that religion categorically owns artistry and symbolism. I see symbolism and artistic impulses as being more foundational, being the innate human drives, and religions as being built on top of such things as symbolism.

[@jesusislordsavior6343]

Many excellent points were made here. I happen to be a neighbor to America, who spent several formative years of my life there. I was converted to Christ as a foreign student in the USA, and I thank the Living God (not an abstraction) that my pastor at that time studiously avoided ostentatious displays of American civil religion! As I recall, American theologian Harvey Cox discussed the problem of civil religion and political sacralism in 'The Secular City' (1965). He noted close parallels between the civil-religious practices of American and Soviet societies. It seems ironic yet obvious that 'official atheism', as part of the ideological package of marxism-leninism, acquired a religious flavor. It justified persecution of 'heretics', such as Russian Baptists, or interment of dissidents (some of them Christian) in psychiatric hospitals, in an effort to 'correct' their point of view. During the French Revolution, there was serious debate about what kind of civil religion ought to be adopted by the new State, in defiance of Christian (or rather, pseudo-Christian) traditions. Hence the Cult of Reason, versus a Cult of the Supreme Being. It is curious how willingly the American State has accommodated 'religion per se'; hence the proliferation of bizarre cults proceeding from American soil. On the other hand, its religious heterogeneity has made America a sought-after destination for oppressed minorities. The net benefit of this openness has been great. Yet it affords an excuse for the intrusion of American civil religion upon all minority cultures, as the sole available unifying force. Therefore America cannot be truly multicultural, forcing a kind of syncretism upon everyone as the price of belonging to the greater American family. It doesn't bother me that this happens to non-Christians; for them, nothing is lost by this transaction. But some of my brethren insist that America was founded as a 'Christian State', and I consider that point of view incorrect-------dangerously naive, perhaps. The result is that some of them feel that their country is being 'taken away' from them, when it never was 'theirs' to begin with. Since the Caesars, the State has always been a potential threat to the Church, and America is no exception. Will the question of political messianism be addressed in a later video? Is America the first modern State founded (ostensibly) on a set of propositions, which are alleged to have universal force? Has not American imperialism in the post-Cold War era been motivated by 'noble' ideals of spreading democracy worldwide, regardless of actual results? Unfortunately Ronald Reagan MISAPPROPRIATED Scripture when he applied the 'city set upon a hill' metaphor to America. When Jesus walked the earth, evidently, there was NO such thing as an American union, nor was there to be for about 1,750 years. Clearly the Lord was addressing His disciples, not America (see Matthew 5:14).

[@lornajames]

Ok not to be rude now how do you know that your god is the right god ?

[@jesusislordsavior6343]

@@lornajames It's not rude to ask. People have been asking the same question for thousands of years. I came to Christianity from a secular perspective. I never took 'other religions' seriously. My Dad was a Greco-Roman scholar. I knew without being told that the 'gods' of ancient Greece and Rome were constructions of the human imagination. Not so with the God of Israel, Who upsets so many human expectations. I can think of two very good reasons (among others) for confidence in the God of Israel: 1. He has revealed His presence in Nature and History. As a 'history buff' I consider this incredibly important. We have at our disposal a vast minefield of information, composed over a period of as much as 1,500 years. The problem is that so few people investigate it thoroughly. Perhaps some of them do not wish to have their prejudices or existing sense of 'identity' disturbed. 2. Far from being a philosophical proposition, He is ACCESSIBLE to those Who seek Him, by faith. This has been the experience of millions of believers from the dawn of recorded history until the present. I have, experienced, and read about many answers to prayer which CANNOT be chalked up to 'mere coincidence'. (Hebrews 11:1) 'Now faith is the assurance of [things] hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.' Valid faith is effective; invalid faith is ineffective. There is a wonderful account in the Old Testament of a contest between the prophet Elijah and a small army of pagan priests, at Mount Carmel. The object was to see whose god or God would accept a sacrificial offering. The pagan priests leaped about and gashed their flesh to gain the attention of their 'god' Baal. Hours later, nothing had happened. Then Elijah built his altar, pouring water over it so that the offering could not possibly ignite. After his short prayer, FIRE fell upon it and consumed the offering. Awestruck, the attendant crowd confessed that the God of Israel is the TRUE GOD. I'm out of time now, but certainly open to further discussion. This is only a beginning. '

[@ZeSheshamHahu]

I'm going through the channels archive and I just came back to this video from "State Shinto". What you're describing here sounds like the anti-state Shinto propaganda America used to justify their involvement in Shinto in Japan. How come American nationalists are not self aware?

[@MonkeyWhoWouldBeKing]

it's a common meme here, but to what extent is the NHS the UK's 'national religion'? (probably a less facetious question after the clap for carers practice)

[@keithstewart934]

We have an opposing religion as well.

[@Yannis1a]

Who else is thinking of Colombia from Bioshock Infinite?

[@Strick-IX]

Funnily enough, I was recently mulling over the role of renowned politicians in earlier civilizations like the Roman Empire; how some exalted Caesars were deified and mythologized. Even in the (relatively) recent past of America's struggle for independence, the lives, personalities, and reputations of the Founding Fathers are deeply revered, as if they were divine beings incarnate. Some would go as far as to say that such a revolution was ordained by God, or, in a sense, "manifest destiny." Indeed, we can see that throughout much of human history, political and religious doctrine have been inextricably analogous (or, in some cases, synonymous), which only makes sense when we consider civil relationships within a given power structure. Whether it is through democracy or a totalitarian power structure, the will of the people tends to guide the hands of governance; to incur the wrath of one's society is to defy the will of God. Furthermore, it can be said that, much like how people have faith in their religious philosophy, so, too, do they believe in the "system," believing that they will attain a kind of nirvana through the so-called "American dream," which, like peoples' notions of heaven and hell, can prove highly subjective. It is a similar subjectivity that allows people to view the Constitution as a flexible, living document; interpreted in so many different ways, much like religious texts. Still, there are plenty of conservatives who try to take the document at face value, asserting that "this is what the Founding Fathers would have wanted." On the other end of the spectrum, critics are remiss to yield it any credence, as it was drawn up by people who would, by today's standards, seem rather out of touch. On a lighter note, I think recent events have paved the way for the next "apocolocyntosis!"

[@Serai3]

The Roman civil religion is an apt analogy for America's, to be sure. You can find a lot of the same features in both, with the exception that the Roman included actual deities, which is why the Caesars were officially deified, while the American is ostensibly secular (though we often treat our forefathers as if they were deities).

[@Sewblon]

"Still, there are plenty of conservatives who try to take the document at face value, asserting that "this is what the Founding Fathers would have wanted." On the other end of the spectrum, critics are remiss to yield it any credence, as it was drawn up by people who would, by today's standards, seem rather out of touch." There progressive orientalists. www.theusconstitution.org/ You legitimately can read progressive ideas into the 14th amendment, since it was written to protect African Americans, and its vague enough that you can reasonably argue that it still should still apply even through a lens of progressive values and modern knowledge.

[@MenacingWithVideos]

We need to make "E Pluribus Unam" great again

[@amylucas8709]

E Pluribus Unum 🇺🇸

[@philagelio336]

The 4th of July is my favorite holiday